My favorite combat mechanism is munchkin, everyone can be involved, and often you are, which leads to almost puzzle like situations where both sides has to figure out how to stop the attackers from killing the monster, or how kill the monster despite the defenders efforts, which means the combat is very complex and political, despite it at its core being a deterministic(compare numbers) human vs AI system
Inis also has a super interesting combat mechanism. And multiple players can participate in a single battle, and even change who they are fighting mid-battle! So much can happen in a battle (especially when there's more than two players in the fight), and yet Inis battles are not overly long. Elegant and full of interesting choices, Inis is incredible!
I think I am obsessed with your top 10 game mechanic videos! I don’t mind how long your videos could be-I always return to finish watching. The community needs more board/tabletop game content. Thank you. My 3 “nostalgic” favorite combat systems are chess, risk and stratego. My favorites are more theme based and that’s why I enjoy them: dicethrone, bloodrage and surprisingly unstable unicorns. I appreciate the story (playing a part) and as long as it makes sense I enjoy it more and that leads me too I don’t mind purchasing a game (> or < $80) like that. Win or lose, I want to feel something out of that time I apply to a game.
Thank you, Heather! I'm glad the long-form content works for you--I've been sticking with it weekly for a few years now. I like this a lot: "Win or lose, I want to feel something out of that time I apply to a game."
Kemet and Cosmic Encounter were two that came to my mind when I saw the title A few more I find noteworthy: Battlecon - Each character has an original deck of "Bases" and each player gets an additional set of basic attacks that are the same for each player. Each turn a player combines a "base" technique with a basic card to form their attack. So, while both players may be attempting a throw, each character is doing a different type of throw based on the card played from the unique deck. Duel of Ages 2 - Opfire. An attack that happens when opponent's character moves in your line of sight on their turn. Makes placement of your characters and sentinels important. Tannhauser - Each space on the board is represented by a color. Your line of sight is determined based on whether your color matches your target. This game also has an "opfire" mechanism. Rampage (Terror in Meeple City) - Combat is done through several options: Charging into them by flicking discs, throwing objects by flicking wooden cars, jump attacks which require you to drop your piece onto the play area, breath attacks by literally blowing from your actual face onto the target, and finally collateral damage done through your destruction to other pieces on the board. Good times. Dungeon Fighters - Bouncing a die to see where it lands on a target to determine damage. Special faces on the die can trigger other abilities. I don't know if this counts as combat as this is a co-op game (attacks are against monsters), but I find the mechanism fun.
Have to agree with you on Kemet! Love it and the game so aggressively pushes players to combat, so it's fortunate that combat in it is pretty fascinating! Great list!
Great video Mr. Stegmaier! I spent about 45 minutes putting together a comment that went into a little detail about why I picked each of my choices, but after hitting the comment button it didn't post. So this is attempt 2, but it will be shorter because I'm still a little bummed it didn't post the one I worked on. This was an interesting top ten to make because though I've made a lot of board game top tens over the last couple years, this is the first time I tried to do a combat mechanism top ten. My honorable mentions are Mansions of Madness 2nd edition, I love how the health and insanity work in that game, Nemesis uses a similar and equally interesting system. 7 Wonders Duel, I'd like to see their tug of war instant win condition used in other games, as an alternative winning condition. And finally Small World, simply because it is so simple. I put down more units than you, I win. On any given day, depending on my mood, I might even put a Small World style combat at number 1 instead of honorable mentions. So here we go! 10. Attack of the Jelly Monster Bumping someone elses die and sending it to the middle feels really good, one of the funner things in this game. 9. 7 Wonders Like you said, I like that you can't pick on anyone as you're always battling your left and right. It's also not so many points that you can't win if you ignore military. 8. Fairy Tale Card drafting where you can hunt a certain card type and anyone playing that color on the same turn has to flip it over, it's the unique thing in this card drafting game I haven't seen in any other. 7. Kemet I agree with everything you said, I'll explain a little why this isn't my number 1 though for each game I put above it. 6. Scythe My favorite thing is probably that it doesn't feel like the end of the world if you lose a combat in this game. Having some info (seeing the numbers on the board) but not all of it (the combat cards, and how much of their power are they going to use?) Keeps it fun and interesting and most importantly, provides choices. I will always debate with one of my friends who hates any kind of random in a game, that I don't mind random elements, as long as I feel like I have choices. Scythe is full of choices and not just with it's combat, which is why it's a game that appeals to me again and again. 5. Dune I think Scythe as a whole is a better game, but I like the combat here a bit more. It feels very similar to Scythe in that you have a combat wheel, you add a card and a leader, but the traitor cards that you're dealt at the beginning, which give you options of who to choose as a traitor from another faction but also shows you leaders of your own who aren't traitors (because you have them so nobody else does) it's just a really interesting mechanism. 4. Cosmic Encounter I love that every combat immediately becomes a social thing. Everyone starts debating and questioning who they should join, and the possible bluffing and betrayal make every conflict interesting even if you aren't involved. 3. Gloomhaven Since the cards are not only your means of attacking, but your other actions, your initiative, and are basically the time limit you have to finish the mission, it makes every battle and every action that much more of a puzzle and I love it. You always want to smash! But you need to be mindful of where and when to smash... 2. Blood Rage Card drafting that helps set up your entire age/phase/round whatever term was used I'm forgetting at the moment, is what makes this game shine for me. I also like that you get points for every soldier of yours that dies so again, losing combat doesn't always feel like the end of the world. 1. Too Many Bones Everything about this game centers around its combat. Level up your stats, unlock new unique dice, and there's always something good to roll. No blank faces. I love that some die you can lock in and keep active for the rest of the game until you choose to reroll it or take it off, some you can save for a one time use later, and some are used instantly. Everything about this games combat is fun in my opinion. And though I do tend to think card based combat is usually better than dice, this game not only won me over on that but was the game that got me to come around on co-ops, I do love the dice chuckin in this game. It's also fun that your friends at the table are cheering you on to get good rolls since you're working together. I just think this game is great, the combat is fun, and 90% of the game is combat. Throw in a little storytelling, and your level up phases, the rest is combat. If you made it all the way to the end, thanks for sticking through! My original comment went into even more detail but I just couldn't bring myself to type it all back out, especially since it took about an hour just to scroll through my boardgamegeek and choose the games I wanted to include in the first place! Maybe that's a good thing though, this was still quite a lengthy comment. Again great video, look forward to next week's sitdown!
I feel your pain. Sometimes when I know I'm going to type up a book of a comment, I'll go do it in a wordpad first that's safe from refresh or back button, then copy it over. Dorky I know...but safety and foresight are for dorks.
Great post, thanks! I know the frustration of losing a long text. Makes you crazy! To avoid losing a text I usually copy the text some times during the process. In that way, I will not lose the whole text at least.
Thanks Rick! I appreciate you typing this out again. In case it helps, I use a Chrome plugin called Typio that saves what you type and lets you refresh it in case you lose it. It doesn't always work, but it's saved me quite a few times. :)
Kemet is so great! Thanks for doing this video, I really like the tactics cards in Heroes of Land Air and Sea. A little bit of a rock paper scissors but you'll still need to pay the cost or resource to play, units can also be sacked to pay for cost, still giving there strength to the fight, but removed after.
I'm designing a game with something similar to Tiny Epic Kingdoms. I fell in love with that war mechanism and knew I'd want to use something similar. So simple and elegant, and, like you said, encouraging/ enabling bluffing and diplomacy above the board.
I'm very tempted to use it too since it fits well with my theme. But I'm wondering if there's any way I could put a twist on it though without over-complicating combat.
Just played Legends of Andor again last night & really like how the game forces your team (it is co-op) to battle creatures, but only as a means to completing a bigger legend (goal). If you just combat, you run out of time before completing your goal. You also choose how many characters enter battle & what special abilities you will apply. In the end there is also dice rolling, so some luck, but it is mitigated in part if you plan well & use the skills and abilities you've gathered wisely. I think this kind of fits your category of combat against an AI.
Middle-Earth Quest. By far. The fact that your cards are multi-use ( they represent your health pool, your movement on the map and special attacks ), combined with the fact that you can combine them to make attacking combos is one of the best combat systems I've seen.
Unbroken--your weapon is powered by resources you gather before battle (ex. spend 2 Small Effort to swing an axe for 3 damage, or spend a Cunning and Large Effort to do 5). Your opponent has a list of 6 potential attacks they do, which are determined by a die roll. So you know potentials, but not exactly what your opponent will do, and you have options on how to use your weapon. You can also use general actions to muster resources or voluntarily down grade your weapon for a different move set. Pretty tense and interesting.
Great video. There are some great games mentioned here. Really like the new visuals which helps in listening/following to these podcasts. One combat mechanism that’s not listed here is the mechanism used by Columbia Block war games (ie Hammer of the Scots). Like Stratego, it has a big “fog of war” element of not knowing what your enemy has. These games are generally two player (except games like Wizard Kings) so lengthier combat is not a (pardon the pun) killer. But these block games use an alphanumeric system that I enjoy and keeps things pretty streamlined. I also like Richard Borg’s designs (Memoir 44 is a fav). Card management is crucial in those games.
I really like the combat in the FFG version of Warrior Knights. You're drawing cards based on the amount of units you're taking into combat and then discarding some. Cards have 4 possible outcomes: 1 Victory, Deal 100 damage, Prevent 100 damage, or Retreat. The outcome is then decided first by calculating casualties (the +100s and -100s) and if there are still units alive, then on the amount of Victory cards played. Victory cards representing the strategic decisions taken during a battle that lead to a military victory when the enemy is not wiped out. Depending on the size of that victory, the leader of the opposing army might die in battle as well, which itself has a bunch of consequences: he's removed from the board until the next round, mercenaries might desert, etc.
I've only played Heroes of Might and Magic 3, but the combat system there is manually controlled, and you do want to position yourself through fights, with some units e.g. having a bonus if they move a minimum distance and attack in the same turn. That said, if you like these automatic fights, where you set yourself up and then watch everything play out, you might like auto chess games, such as Dota Underlords (not the same game as Dota) or Teamfight Tactics. They are exactly that: buy units from a rotating shop, position them, and then you get matched against another player and see who wins. Battles take only 30 seconds or so. You have agency, though you also need to let go and laugh as a unit's poor AI completely ruins your plans.
Great video, really helped me brainstorm ideas for my own tabletop game i'm building. I want to mention the game Condottiere, I think it has a great deckbuilding and card battle mechanic
A game combat system I like is INIS. Because of three factors: One: When you fight you lose either your men or your cards and those cards are your turns for that cycle(season) so every one of them you lose is one less turn you can play in order to keep more men in the territory. Two: You can just agree to not fight or even stop fighting at any time and as long as everyone agrees it is all good and the fighting just stops and can't be started again without the right card or move to set it off. Three: You can move one single man into another territory, declare a fight and the two existing powers with a few men can fight you and then after you're dead they can still keep fighting each other, so you can set them off and they can lose a ton of fighters without much cost to you.
Yep it's a very clever system, although it won't suit everyone's taste. But then again, Inis is not about fighting - in fact, there are probably more cases where fighting is less rewarding than not fighting. The worst thing that can happen in a 3 player game is a clash between two of them where they lose most of their cards... after that, the 3rd player can basically do whatever he wants without any disruption :D
glad you mentioned Cry Havoc...easily one of the best combat mechanisms I've ever encountered. Another mechanism I liked was in Nexus Ops. It's basically risk combat (roll and compare), but units have initiative and different combat abilities. So if you put a bunch of high initiative guys into a fight, they may not be likely to hit, but if they do, you can end combat quickly. Conan has a straightforward system with an interesting action allocation system around it. The combat is basically roll a number of dice based on a stat, and the result determines the number of wounds. What makes it interesting, though is that you have tokens the represent your "stamina" and determine how strong you can make your attack (add dice), how often you can attack, and the tokens also double as your hit points. This allocation system makes for an interesting aspect in the following ways: it represents being wounded in a very thematic way, if you build up your energy you can pull off "herioc" actions that are EPIC, it makes combat simultaneously strategic AND tactical.
Heey Jamey, Great video! I think combat mechanisms are one of the most intriguing parts of board game design, with a very fine line of being boring/too deterministic and being too random. Personally, I agree with the more agency the better, but in a player vs player scenario this is hard to keep interesting.
I am a big fan of Scythe, but I like the combat system more in theory than in practice, as with my most common gaming group we usually still play it ‘deterministic’ with a guaranteed win for the attacker (partly the fault of my game group ;)). I think this is partly stimulated by the fact that there are only two combat stars available, thus you can go all in twice and then no longer care (usually combat takes place in the last 2-3 rounds of the game for us). I do really like the combat in Taited Grail (vs AI), as combat flows (relatively) fast and you know exactly what the enemy will do (depending on how much damage they have been dealt), and therefore have a lot of control of what will happen. In addition, the special abilities of the enemies, as well as large variety in player combat cards make sure that combat never feels boring. A game I have not yet played, but would very much like to try because of the combat system, is Tsukuyumi: Full Moon Down. Here an attacker makes a choice of various ‘attack’ cards (conquest, annihilation etc.), and each attack card gives the defender a few options to respond. The beauty of this system, in my eyes, is that both players have full agency over each combat, while offering a huge amount of decision space with no randomness. Cheers and thanks for the food for thought!
Runebound 3rd edition ..! is my number one combat mechanisms, so original. Each items you buy for your character is a token with 2 sides, in combat each player cast their tokens and do a duel resolving one token at the time in the order chose by the player.
Heroes of Might and Magic have Turn Based Combat. Auto Combat is possible but you miss a big funny part of the game. Modern Autochess, Dota underlords or Team Fight Tactis is basically the type of combat you described for HoMaM 2.
Joe is really earning his keep! Love the upgrades on production value. I'm not a huge combat game guy either, but I have really enjoyed Arena for the Gods, which is a multiplayer arena fighting game. You have a character with 4 cards with abilities that are activated by dice with custom icons. So you roll and assign the dice to cards. The fun part of the combat is that the arena contains certain physics (you can push one enemy into another and the second enemy might also hit a spiked wall) creating combos where you can damage multiple enemies at once. Damage tokens are hidden behind a screen, which creates some uncertainty, but people generally know who's doing well and who's doing badly. As soon as one person gets enough damage, the game ends. This was really clever, I think. Instead of having to wipe out ALL the enemies, you only have to be in the lead when one is wiped out. This prevents a "gang up on the loser" problem; if you aren't sure you are in the lead you will target the stronger players instead. And the dice placement is just fun. I like King of Tokyo as well. On one hand it's just straight dice rolling, but the dice are multipurpose. You might not want the attack icons if you need healing, or want to buy cards, or want VP. That's a neat choice. And also the issue of being forced into Tokyo makes for a more diverse combat decision space than normal.
For us this list tops out with Rising Sun with an honourable mention to Inis. The brilliance of the Rising Sun combat isn't necessarily the combat itself, it's that you know where combat will be and then you have 7 turns to decide, plan, scheme etc. for how or even if you'll approach that battle. Go big, recruit allies, then possibly betray those same allies, get out of the battle province, intentionally lose a battle for the benefits etc. Then within the battle, all your prep goes into the table talk / mind games / bluffing / alliances you've cultivated. Add in the variable powers, monsters etc. and for our money it's pretty tough to beat.
One video game with a fairly unique combat system is Indivisible. It is a combination of turn based rpg combat and a fighting game. You have a party of four characters, and each character gets a dedicated button. When you push a button, and have an available action pip, that character will spend that pip and go and attack whatever monster is being targeted. These attacks don't automatically deal damage to the target, instead they have a hit box. Any enemy inside the hit box is damaged, and those outside are unaffected. So you can pick up extra damage against a tight group of monsters or whiff a low attack against a flying monster. Then spent pips fill up slowly, sort of like Final Fantasy's Active Time Battle system. My favorite part of the game's combat is a resource called iddhi. You get this resource by landing attacks, and get more if you manage to chain attacks into a combo. One of the main ways to spend iddhi is on super moves, usually high damage attacks but some characters use iddhi to heal the party. But you also spend iddhi when you try to block attacks made by the monsters. So you have to play defense very carefully if you want to be able to pull off any of the cool super moves.
One of my favorite combat mechanics is in a Digital game called Banner Saga. Units have strength which is Hit Points but also determines how well you do in battle so the closer you are to death the worse you do, but you also have armor that negates exactly that much damage but you can chose to attack someones armor or strength its fun getting upgrades that maybe pierce armor or break armor easier. its really awesome and when think about really good combat systems this one comes to mind.
Starcraft The Board Game The combat itself is not very special, it is kinda of interesting that units have slight variation of strengths But the real interesting aspect is how you set yourself up for combat with the movements and building before hand. Suspecting that an attack is coming the opponents can block ones build order so there will be less units part of the attack. That to me is great strategy-combat mechanisms!
Heros of Land Sea and Air has a really cool combat mechanism where each player has 7 different cards to chose from each being able to have certain advantages over the other one. Each one has a amount of strength that it adds to your army and also a cost. though if you can't afford the cost you can chose to sacrifice one of your troops to be able to afford it.
Played Wildlands with the wife last night and I like the combat in that game. A lot of people complain because you can’t usually knock someone out in one (or two or three) rounds, but if you’re patient and tactical, you can usually score one or two kills to go along with your gems making up the balance. I’m hankering for a four player game of it to see how chaotic it gets with four people on the board. Picked up Cry Havoc a couple of weeks ago and haven’t gotten it to the table yet. Might happen tomorrow depending on player count.
Shogun (Wallenstein) has a unique combat mechanic where you drop cubes in a tower and the winner is determined by whose cubes fall out. The combat system (particularly sieges) in War of the Ring is thematic and the use of combat/event cards adds tension to every round of battle.
Shogun indeed has a wonderful combat system! I especially like that, while there is a lot of randomness, you will get those cubes/soldiers back at some point, and thus your overall 'luck' is very well mitigated
Hi Jemey! Really cool video and extremely interesting topic. I would love to see you going through some mechanic and all the design involved in even more detail. On combat in Scythe: I love the game. I have all expansions (except for extra encounters) and some premium components. The only thing I wish was different in Scythe is combat :P I guess it may depend slightly on whom you play with, but each time I've played it combat was the most predictable and least exciting part of the game. In my experience there is very little that may happened after you decide to go into combat. Since you need a really good reason for going in and almost all information is open everyone know the result of the battle from the very beginning. I understand it is well-connected to other systems of the game and it is very efficient, but I wish there was more to it. I would love to see a vide where you go through all discarded mechanics you've mentioned and talk about the design choices here. I think it bother quite a lot of people when they play Scythe for the first time. It is a game about war, but there is very little combat to it and battles are not terribly fun. On Heroes of Might and Magic: It is really interesting that the thing you've liked in HoM&M was automatic combat. I think there is such option, but I've never used it, since "proper" combat is so fun. It has been years since H2. Why haven't you played other ones? If you would like to jump back I would recommend Heroes 6. Do not try H7. :P MTG: I wonder what is you opinion on this game. Personally I like it if it is played in good company, but the game itself is super archaic and most of the time is not fun on its own merits. I hope I am not too late with this comment :P
I just don't play many video games, hence why I didn't continue after some of the early Heroes of Might and Magic games. As for Magic, I post a video about it every time I draft a new set (all I do now is play 1 draft per set). But I love the game--you'll find it on my recent top 10 list of my favorite games. :)
I know it takes a lot of effort to edit videos, but I would really love to see some snippets in the bottom left corner or something of a picture about what you're talking about, even if it's just for 3-5 seconds to show us what you're talking about. I'm familiar with a lot of these games, but some I'm not. And it would really help pull me into what you're talking about if I also had a visual to go along with it. Your words are very articulate and well understood when explaining - but having that visual would be super nice to go along with it. Thanks for all you do! Love your content :)
Yep, we've been doing that for the last 2 years. Check out Sunday videos posted since around this time in 2021--you have around 100 videos to catch up on. :)
FYI, Aristeai is a skirmish game with an interesting combat mechanism. It use custom dice like Doom. But the neat thing is that both attacker and defender can trigger various ability depending on the dice results. What I like is the ability to make decisions AFTER the dice are rolled based on the results, rather than just go with the dice results as in most game.
Very good topic ! I think that it is one of the most important thing in a boardgame, and it's hard to make it interesting without making it too convoluted. Have you ever considered making a video about Boardgame that actually, according to your opinion ofc, fail doing it ? I mean it's like cinema there is so many stuff that are now mastered by most of the movie we see, and a bad movie put more perspective to what those movie are doing right. I think bad movie highlights more why good movies are good by underlining the quality of them. So i think it would be interesting to share some of those "imperfect game", it also helps the people following you to understand the paradigm in which you function and place the cursor somewhere. Also i like that you mention all those mechanics ! But what is your thoughts about balance on them ?? Like for example some games mechanics are so random it goes full banana, and then there is chess at the extreme opposite. A good example is what Hearthstone did by having random effect in the beginning where a lot of game was about Ragnaros aiming the right target, but it offered the same unfairness to both side. Do you think it's good to have strong result to turn tables and having everybody having the same possibility ? Or low risk and low reward ? Also what's your opinion on mechanics that hinders other player. Like Res Arcana who just received the "Golden Ace" in Cannes, or 7 Wonders, smallworld etc ... ? thank you very much for you time
Thanks for your comment! I try to keep things positive, but yes, sometimes I talk about how a game might try to do something and not succeed at it (sometimes even with a suggestion from me). I love randomness and variability, but I generally stay away from games where luck plays a much higher role than player agency. As for mechanisms that hinder other players, I like it when they don't completely prevent an opponent from doing something, but rather just make it more difficult for them (and gives them an interesting decision).
The combat in Dune is tricky. You either spend ages working out what you are going to do or you know in seconds what you are going to do(especially the Atreides). If you have anyone with Analysis Paralysis in your group you might end up never attacking them solely because they take so long working out what they're going to do. Still a nearly perfect system of cost/benefit in combat, you lose everyone you send to fight regardless of the outcome. So you really really have to think about winning not only the fight at hand but also the next fight along if you can't reinforce.
Hi Jamey, Thanks for the great video, a very interesting subject and I guess a very tricky one for game designers. Have you had a look at Neuroshima Hex? I've played it a few times with friends and I find it really catchy. It's nice to see some love for AFAOS, this is one of my favorite duelling games but it's so hard to bring to the table. I'm a very old card gamer, so I'm still addicted to combat in Vampire : The Eternal struggle. Even if it only involves two of the 4-5 players at the table I've always seen everyone watching the showdown. Any chance of seeing your name next to Richard Garfield on a game box? ^^
I would like to include Tsukuyomi full moon down to the list. It has a Ai combat and it also has a player combat. Players on there turn can use the Oni ai creatures to harass other players. For dueling games Super Fantasy brawl has a sweet dueling combat.
Anyone have strong opinions on Root? I just pre-ordered a copy to their next printing but i feel like its sort of a polarizing game to talk about and was curious if anyone else happen anything to share?
I really like the combat mechanism in 868 Vikings: Invasion of England. Army on army: call-up of support; cards-in-hand that change strength assumptions made before battles; dice rolls that inflict hits, strategically withdraw, or flee; multiple rounds (dice rolls) with the result in doubt. Has Jamey tried this one?
I haven't played the most recent printing but assume it is the same - Shogun has a combat system where you have different levels of troops and the dice roll needed on a d6 varies by the quality of the troops in question. Obviously these troop types have differing costs in the economic side of the game to offset their combat effectiveness. Makes mass combats fairly quick in what is a long game. On an unrelated note, I was thinking about aspects of roleplaying that I enjoy and one of those is character creation. I was trying to think of boardgames where you can design your own character or kingdom from a range of choices before you start but couldn't really think of any - most games have pre-designed characters. Are there any you could suggest?
Roll Player is a puzzly game that's all about building your own character. As for other tabletop games with strong elements of character creation...all of the games I can think of let you define your character/kingdom over the course of the game, not at the beginning.
@@jameystegmaier Thanks for taking the time to respond, much appreciated. By coincidence I was watching DT "Top 10 Adventure Games" today and discovered one I hadn't heard of - Hexplore It. Tom was like "why haven't I heard of this before???" and I was the same.
There are a number of games you might be thinking of, but Heroes of might and magic has never been an auto-battler (although there is an "auto" button you can push, which maybe you just accidentally turned on once, and then played with it on for a long time.
I've only played it once, and while I remember the draft mechanism pretty well, I can't remember anything about the combat. Hence why I didn't mention it.
I must say that you might check up on your definition of determinism. Determinism doesn't mean that you only have to compare two numbers. The term determinism comes from philosophy and computer science. In computer science it is used to distinguish algorithms which produce the same result for the same inputs in contrast to algorithms which may produce different results even if the inputs are the same (this might be because there is some randomness involved in the algorithm for example). This means that a deterministic combat system is one where you can calculate the combat outcome with 100% certainty if you had perfect information. Note though that you do not need to have perfect information for it to be deterministic only that you could if you had. I feel like this is what people mean when they say that something ist deterministic: It might be complex and there might be hidden information but there ist no randomness involved.
"This means that a deterministic combat system is one where you can calculate the combat outcome with 100% certainty if you had perfect information." I agree with that definition.
I have played both games over 5 times and I feel Rising Sun built on Cry Havoc and enhanced it. The coins that you secretly bid on the spot make it more exciting, political and less deterministic than in Cry Havoc where you are just openly putting your few figures that is known. Spending the coins simultaneously in Rising sun adds the excitement of guessing what the opponent will try to bid for
I have a game in the works. Currently working on the card art. Taking forever as we are designing the art for each card. Any tips on getting them done?
Definitely! Check out the related articles on the following page under "Before You Launch / Art and Graphic Design": stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter/full-list-chronological/ If you have any questions after reading an article, just mention it in the comments of that article.
@@jameystegmaier Thanks mate. I believe your gonna love my scifi space game! The story immersion, the events that take place and the race for domination! My Game is Called Zer0 -G "Conflict"
I think there aren't many games out there that do combat really well, and in some games when an attack happens, you have so little means to deal with it that it feels like paying taxes. * If you've ever played Ascension, while there is combat, it basically just operates in the game as another non-interchangeable currency. I guess you could call that deterministic combat in that you know before the fight whether or not you are going to win. * There's always dice based combat if you want the possibility of failure, but if you have a really bad roll that can sort of take you out of the game. * Then there's simultaneous reveal, the best example of which is rock-paper-scissors, which is fine, but it feels a little flat in the sense that its one and done and there isn't much you can do about the outcome. * I think outcome mitigation is necessary for any combat mechanic to have a little depth to it. Imagine playing rock-paper-scissors, but best of 3. Then add 3 more symbols. Let's call the original symbols attacks, and the new symbols blocks. The 3 new symbols block and only block 2 of the 3 attacks (they have no attack powers), each one leaving you open to a different one of the 3 attack symbols. Just, but I suppose that would risk combat taking too long, wouldn't it?
I have a scifi game in the works and looking for a simple melee combat to use between 2 factions of say 6 crew members on each side. I tried the D6 dice kinda like warhammer but its a bit much and too time consuming because of the gameplay doing many other things like travel and events etc...
Shogun/Wallenstein should be on this list if not number 1. Has Jamey not played it or did he play it so long ago that he no longer has clear memories of it? Battle for Rokugan has also a great combat mechanism with I high bluff element.
I think you mixed up Heroes of might and magic with Warlords 3 Darklord Rising (dunno about the others). In homm combat is manual while In Warlords 3, you hire troops, arrange them in your stacjk in any order and when you fight, everything is automated with dice rolls.
Nothing beats dice for combat. As much as people hate the luck of dice, with the luck comes so much fun and tension. Ideally you need a big enough game with enough dice rolls such that bad luck in one battle won’t destroy your entire game. Axis & Allies 1940 Global is my favorite for this. It’s a 20 hour game, but highly strategic and each round there are 15-25 battles being rolled out. Some battles are more important than others, but in a lot of cases you can dedicate extra units to a really important battle such that you have 99%+ odds of winning. Sometimes it’s worth making an attack where the odds are against because you can afford to lose the units more than your opponent, and/or you have more to gain than lose. Dice are amazing.
The only game I have that you mentioned that I have is Stratego. I play mostly "war games". Though I do enjoy Horrified Forbidden Island and Clue(6 or 7 versions). Why war games? To see if I can win, when one side should not, or did not win. It's all about the challenge. Though I am thinking about getting Root. And as always great n interesting video. No worries on the time. when you have good material and it needs 15 minutes don't try to squeeze iin to 10. use the time that you have to use.
It's funny that you've mention not liking combat systems where players can sort gang up and all go after one player because I've had multiple scenarios in Scythe where that's happened. Basically a player spreads themselves too thin. Has 1 fight where they deplete their combat points/power so they're left wide open and then all the players just come in and start taking bites out of them.
You're right, I dislike combat-oriented games where (a) players are reward for acting out of spite and (b) a player being attacked cannot recover. What you're describing in Scythe, though, is about combat being *meaningful*, which I think it important too. You have the choice in Scythe to spread out to control more territories, but in doing so, you're making yourself a target.
@Jamey Stegmaier I totally agree that it falls on the player for spreading out too much but it still has the same emotional impact on the player who is being ganged up on as it would in a "spite combat game" even if in scythe the attacker's intentions are strategic rather than spiteful. Though I have seen spiteful attacks happen in Scythe as well but that's inevitable with any game with negative player interaction.
@@jameystegmaier I love that about Scythe. My only issue is I have seen is often one player will gain advantage early and then snowball...Making 2/3s of the game a foregone conclusion. But thats just been my experience. Scythe is by the way visually stunning. The artwork is gorgeous. Atmosphere is awesome. I love the importance of each decision. That being said, I really wish there was an easier way to swing the game once it has started.
Dungeon degenerates where the total of your dice needs to be lower than the stat you are using i.e.strength or agility. My group had come off of massive darkness and you wanted to roll high, those first few sessions were head scratchers. Also played a lot of d&d so having to relearn your dice rolls. Not my favorite mechanic but interesting.
I'm glad you mentioned Dark Souls, but a little dissappointed that it seems like you haven't played it. Lemme break it down for ya: 1. It's not just difficult bosses. ALL the combat is hard, and power level really won't help you. You can be max level with the best gear, and still get killed by the first enemy if you don't know what you're doing. 2. The combat doesn't really allow for button mashing. You can't just win by swinging the biggest sword as hard as you can. It's about timing and zen... and watching your stamina. 3. Understanding how your character moves is just as important as the bosses (tho you have more time to figure the playable character out). Decide to heal at the wrong time? Dead. Swing your weapon at the wrong angle? Dead. Roll the wrong direction? Fall off a cliff and... dead. The game is unforgiving.
I really like Stratego, but the combat mechanism itself (my number is higher than yours) isn't exactly top 10 material. :) I like Battle Line too, though I wouldn't put it on this list.
Dune, Rising Sun, & Stratego come to mind
rising sun's combat is by far the best IMO
@@mikejin2182 It is very good.
Dune is pretty similar to Scythe + the leader mechanic
Arcs is probably my favorite now.
My favorite combat mechanism is munchkin, everyone can be involved, and often you are, which leads to almost puzzle like situations where both sides has to figure out how to stop the attackers from killing the monster, or how kill the monster despite the defenders efforts, which means the combat is very complex and political, despite it at its core being a deterministic(compare numbers) human vs AI system
Inis also has a super interesting combat mechanism. And multiple players can participate in a single battle, and even change who they are fighting mid-battle! So much can happen in a battle (especially when there's more than two players in the fight), and yet Inis battles are not overly long. Elegant and full of interesting choices, Inis is incredible!
I think I am obsessed with your top 10 game mechanic videos! I don’t mind how long your videos could be-I always return to finish watching. The community needs more board/tabletop game content. Thank you.
My 3 “nostalgic” favorite combat systems are chess, risk and stratego.
My favorites are more theme based
and that’s why I enjoy them: dicethrone, bloodrage and surprisingly unstable unicorns.
I appreciate the story (playing a part) and as long as it makes sense I enjoy it more and that leads me too I don’t mind purchasing a game (> or < $80) like that. Win or lose, I want to feel something out of that time I apply to a game.
Thank you, Heather! I'm glad the long-form content works for you--I've been sticking with it weekly for a few years now. I like this a lot: "Win or lose, I want to feel something out of that time I apply to a game."
Kemet and Cosmic Encounter were two that came to my mind when I saw the title
A few more I find noteworthy:
Battlecon - Each character has an original deck of "Bases" and each player gets an additional set of basic attacks that are the same for each player. Each turn a player combines a "base" technique with a basic card to form their attack. So, while both players may be attempting a throw, each character is doing a different type of throw based on the card played from the unique deck.
Duel of Ages 2 - Opfire. An attack that happens when opponent's character moves in your line of sight on their turn. Makes placement of your characters and sentinels important.
Tannhauser - Each space on the board is represented by a color. Your line of sight is determined based on whether your color matches your target. This game also has an "opfire" mechanism.
Rampage (Terror in Meeple City) - Combat is done through several options: Charging into them by flicking discs, throwing objects by flicking wooden cars, jump attacks which require you to drop your piece onto the play area, breath attacks by literally blowing from your actual face onto the target, and finally collateral damage done through your destruction to other pieces on the board. Good times.
Dungeon Fighters - Bouncing a die to see where it lands on a target to determine damage. Special faces on the die can trigger other abilities. I don't know if this counts as combat as this is a co-op game (attacks are against monsters), but I find the mechanism fun.
Have to agree with you on Kemet! Love it and the game so aggressively pushes players to combat, so it's fortunate that combat in it is pretty fascinating! Great list!
Awesome Vid! You consistently offer high quality, informative videos. Having said that, this is my favorite!!
Thanks 👍
Great video Mr. Stegmaier!
I spent about 45 minutes putting together a comment that went into a little detail about why I picked each of my choices, but after hitting the comment button it didn't post. So this is attempt 2, but it will be shorter because I'm still a little bummed it didn't post the one I worked on.
This was an interesting top ten to make because though I've made a lot of board game top tens over the last couple years, this is the first time I tried to do a combat mechanism top ten. My honorable mentions are Mansions of Madness 2nd edition, I love how the health and insanity work in that game, Nemesis uses a similar and equally interesting system. 7 Wonders Duel, I'd like to see their tug of war instant win condition used in other games, as an alternative winning condition. And finally Small World, simply because it is so simple. I put down more units than you, I win. On any given day, depending on my mood, I might even put a Small World style combat at number 1 instead of honorable mentions. So here we go!
10. Attack of the Jelly Monster
Bumping someone elses die and sending it to the middle feels really good, one of the funner things in this game.
9. 7 Wonders
Like you said, I like that you can't pick on anyone as you're always battling your left and right. It's also not so many points that you can't win if you ignore military.
8. Fairy Tale
Card drafting where you can hunt a certain card type and anyone playing that color on the same turn has to flip it over, it's the unique thing in this card drafting game I haven't seen in any other.
7. Kemet
I agree with everything you said, I'll explain a little why this isn't my number 1 though for each game I put above it.
6. Scythe
My favorite thing is probably that it doesn't feel like the end of the world if you lose a combat in this game. Having some info (seeing the numbers on the board) but not all of it (the combat cards, and how much of their power are they going to use?) Keeps it fun and interesting and most importantly, provides choices. I will always debate with one of my friends who hates any kind of random in a game, that I don't mind random elements, as long as I feel like I have choices. Scythe is full of choices and not just with it's combat, which is why it's a game that appeals to me again and again.
5. Dune
I think Scythe as a whole is a better game, but I like the combat here a bit more. It feels very similar to Scythe in that you have a combat wheel, you add a card and a leader, but the traitor cards that you're dealt at the beginning, which give you options of who to choose as a traitor from another faction but also shows you leaders of your own who aren't traitors (because you have them so nobody else does) it's just a really interesting mechanism.
4. Cosmic Encounter
I love that every combat immediately becomes a social thing. Everyone starts debating and questioning who they should join, and the possible bluffing and betrayal make every conflict interesting even if you aren't involved.
3. Gloomhaven
Since the cards are not only your means of attacking, but your other actions, your initiative, and are basically the time limit you have to finish the mission, it makes every battle and every action that much more of a puzzle and I love it. You always want to smash! But you need to be mindful of where and when to smash...
2. Blood Rage
Card drafting that helps set up your entire age/phase/round whatever term was used I'm forgetting at the moment, is what makes this game shine for me. I also like that you get points for every soldier of yours that dies so again, losing combat doesn't always feel like the end of the world.
1. Too Many Bones
Everything about this game centers around its combat. Level up your stats, unlock new unique dice, and there's always something good to roll. No blank faces. I love that some die you can lock in and keep active for the rest of the game until you choose to reroll it or take it off, some you can save for a one time use later, and some are used instantly. Everything about this games combat is fun in my opinion. And though I do tend to think card based combat is usually better than dice, this game not only won me over on that but was the game that got me to come around on co-ops, I do love the dice chuckin in this game. It's also fun that your friends at the table are cheering you on to get good rolls since you're working together. I just think this game is great, the combat is fun, and 90% of the game is combat. Throw in a little storytelling, and your level up phases, the rest is combat.
If you made it all the way to the end, thanks for sticking through! My original comment went into even more detail but I just couldn't bring myself to type it all back out, especially since it took about an hour just to scroll through my boardgamegeek and choose the games I wanted to include in the first place! Maybe that's a good thing though, this was still quite a lengthy comment. Again great video, look forward to next week's sitdown!
I feel your pain. Sometimes when I know I'm going to type up a book of a comment, I'll go do it in a wordpad first that's safe from refresh or back button, then copy it over. Dorky I know...but safety and foresight are for dorks.
Great post, thanks!
I know the frustration of losing a long text. Makes you crazy! To avoid losing a text I usually copy the text some times during the process. In that way, I will not lose the whole text at least.
@@tombiby5892 I made sure to copy everything from the second attempt, so if it failed to post again I could just paste it in.
@@LassePeterson That's what I did with attempt 2! Of course it posted fine now that I had a back up plan haha
Thanks Rick! I appreciate you typing this out again. In case it helps, I use a Chrome plugin called Typio that saves what you type and lets you refresh it in case you lose it. It doesn't always work, but it's saved me quite a few times. :)
Kemet is so great! Thanks for doing this video, I really like the tactics cards in Heroes of Land Air and Sea. A little bit of a rock paper scissors but you'll still need to pay the cost or resource to play, units can also be sacked to pay for cost, still giving there strength to the fight, but removed after.
I'm designing a game with something similar to Tiny Epic Kingdoms. I fell in love with that war mechanism and knew I'd want to use something similar. So simple and elegant, and, like you said, encouraging/ enabling bluffing and diplomacy above the board.
I'm very tempted to use it too since it fits well with my theme. But I'm wondering if there's any way I could put a twist on it though without over-complicating combat.
So happy to see your #1. I just traded #5 on your list for it
Just played Legends of Andor again last night & really like how the game forces your team (it is co-op) to battle creatures, but only as a means to completing a bigger legend (goal). If you just combat, you run out of time before completing your goal. You also choose how many characters enter battle & what special abilities you will apply. In the end there is also dice rolling, so some luck, but it is mitigated in part if you plan well & use the skills and abilities you've gathered wisely. I think this kind of fits your category of combat against an AI.
DUDE! That Intro was EPIC!
That's thanks to Jeff Payne! :)
Middle-Earth Quest. By far. The fact that your cards are multi-use ( they represent your health pool, your movement on the map and special attacks ), combined with the fact that you can combine them to make attacking combos is one of the best combat systems I've seen.
Unbroken--your weapon is powered by resources you gather before battle (ex. spend 2 Small Effort to swing an axe for 3 damage, or spend a Cunning and Large Effort to do 5). Your opponent has a list of 6 potential attacks they do, which are determined by a die roll. So you know potentials, but not exactly what your opponent will do, and you have options on how to use your weapon. You can also use general actions to muster resources or voluntarily down grade your weapon for a different move set. Pretty tense and interesting.
I have a lot of fun with this little game. Great Solo card game, with a tense combat system.
Great video. There are some great games mentioned here. Really like the new visuals which helps in listening/following to these podcasts.
One combat mechanism that’s not listed here is the mechanism used by Columbia Block war games (ie Hammer of the Scots). Like Stratego, it has a big “fog of war” element of not knowing what your enemy has. These games are generally two player (except games like Wizard Kings) so lengthier combat is not a (pardon the pun) killer. But these block games use an alphanumeric system that I enjoy and keeps things pretty streamlined.
I also like Richard Borg’s designs (Memoir 44 is a fav). Card management is crucial in those games.
I really like the combat in the FFG version of Warrior Knights. You're drawing cards based on the amount of units you're taking into combat and then discarding some. Cards have 4 possible outcomes: 1 Victory, Deal 100 damage, Prevent 100 damage, or Retreat. The outcome is then decided first by calculating casualties (the +100s and -100s) and if there are still units alive, then on the amount of Victory cards played. Victory cards representing the strategic decisions taken during a battle that lead to a military victory when the enemy is not wiped out. Depending on the size of that victory, the leader of the opposing army might die in battle as well, which itself has a bunch of consequences: he's removed from the board until the next round, mercenaries might desert, etc.
I've only played Heroes of Might and Magic 3, but the combat system there is manually controlled, and you do want to position yourself through fights, with some units e.g. having a bonus if they move a minimum distance and attack in the same turn.
That said, if you like these automatic fights, where you set yourself up and then watch everything play out, you might like auto chess games, such as Dota Underlords (not the same game as Dota) or Teamfight Tactics. They are exactly that: buy units from a rotating shop, position them, and then you get matched against another player and see who wins. Battles take only 30 seconds or so. You have agency, though you also need to let go and laugh as a unit's poor AI completely ruins your plans.
Great video, really helped me brainstorm ideas for my own tabletop game i'm building. I want to mention the game Condottiere, I think it has a great deckbuilding and card battle mechanic
Thanks! I'll check it out.
How s it going with your boardgame ?
A game combat system I like is INIS. Because of three factors:
One: When you fight you lose either your men or your cards and those cards are your turns for that cycle(season) so every one of them you lose is one less turn you can play in order to keep more men in the territory.
Two: You can just agree to not fight or even stop fighting at any time and as long as everyone agrees it is all good and the fighting just stops and can't be started again without the right card or move to set it off.
Three: You can move one single man into another territory, declare a fight and the two existing powers with a few men can fight you and then after you're dead they can still keep fighting each other, so you can set them off and they can lose a ton of fighters without much cost to you.
Yep it's a very clever system, although it won't suit everyone's taste. But then again, Inis is not about fighting - in fact, there are probably more cases where fighting is less rewarding than not fighting. The worst thing that can happen in a 3 player game is a clash between two of them where they lose most of their cards... after that, the 3rd player can basically do whatever he wants without any disruption :D
glad you mentioned Cry Havoc...easily one of the best combat mechanisms I've ever encountered.
Another mechanism I liked was in Nexus Ops. It's basically risk combat (roll and compare), but units have initiative and different combat abilities. So if you put a bunch of high initiative guys into a fight, they may not be likely to hit, but if they do, you can end combat quickly.
Conan has a straightforward system with an interesting action allocation system around it. The combat is basically roll a number of dice based on a stat, and the result determines the number of wounds. What makes it interesting, though is that you have tokens the represent your "stamina" and determine how strong you can make your attack (add dice), how often you can attack, and the tokens also double as your hit points. This allocation system makes for an interesting aspect in the following ways: it represents being wounded in a very thematic way, if you build up your energy you can pull off "herioc" actions that are EPIC, it makes combat simultaneously strategic AND tactical.
another honorable mention: Space Hulk 3rd & 4th edition. Overwatch!
Nexus Ops fights are resolved right to left. The bigger ones go first
Heey Jamey,
Great video! I think combat mechanisms are one of the most intriguing parts of board game design, with a very fine line of being boring/too deterministic and being too random. Personally, I agree with the more agency the better, but in a player vs player scenario this is hard to keep interesting.
I am a big fan of Scythe, but I like the combat system more in theory than in practice, as with my most common gaming group we usually still play it ‘deterministic’ with a guaranteed win for the attacker (partly the fault of my game group ;)). I think this is partly stimulated by the fact that there are only two combat stars available, thus you can go all in twice and then no longer care (usually combat takes place in the last 2-3 rounds of the game for us).
I do really like the combat in Taited Grail (vs AI), as combat flows (relatively) fast and you know exactly what the enemy will do (depending on how much damage they have been dealt), and therefore have a lot of control of what will happen. In addition, the special abilities of the enemies, as well as large variety in player combat cards make sure that combat never feels boring.
A game I have not yet played, but would very much like to try because of the combat system, is Tsukuyumi: Full Moon Down. Here an attacker makes a choice of various ‘attack’ cards (conquest, annihilation etc.), and each attack card gives the defender a few options to respond. The beauty of this system, in my eyes, is that both players have full agency over each combat, while offering a huge amount of decision space with no randomness.
Cheers and thanks for the food for thought!
I really like the sound of that Tsukuyumi mechanism! I need to learn more about that.
Runebound 3rd edition ..! is my number one combat mechanisms, so original. Each items you buy for your character is a token with 2 sides, in combat each player cast their tokens and do a duel resolving one token at the time in the order chose by the player.
Heroes of Might and Magic have Turn Based Combat. Auto Combat is possible but you miss a big funny part of the game.
Modern Autochess, Dota underlords or Team Fight Tactis is basically the type of combat you described for HoMaM 2.
Joe is really earning his keep! Love the upgrades on production value.
I'm not a huge combat game guy either, but I have really enjoyed Arena for the Gods, which is a multiplayer arena fighting game. You have a character with 4 cards with abilities that are activated by dice with custom icons. So you roll and assign the dice to cards. The fun part of the combat is that the arena contains certain physics (you can push one enemy into another and the second enemy might also hit a spiked wall) creating combos where you can damage multiple enemies at once. Damage tokens are hidden behind a screen, which creates some uncertainty, but people generally know who's doing well and who's doing badly. As soon as one person gets enough damage, the game ends. This was really clever, I think. Instead of having to wipe out ALL the enemies, you only have to be in the lead when one is wiped out. This prevents a "gang up on the loser" problem; if you aren't sure you are in the lead you will target the stronger players instead. And the dice placement is just fun.
I like King of Tokyo as well. On one hand it's just straight dice rolling, but the dice are multipurpose. You might not want the attack icons if you need healing, or want to buy cards, or want VP. That's a neat choice. And also the issue of being forced into Tokyo makes for a more diverse combat decision space than normal.
Thanks, Steven!
I Like the new intro, short and sweet.
For us this list tops out with Rising Sun with an honourable mention to Inis.
The brilliance of the Rising Sun combat isn't necessarily the combat itself, it's that you know where combat will be and then you have 7 turns to decide, plan, scheme etc. for how or even if you'll approach that battle. Go big, recruit allies, then possibly betray those same allies, get out of the battle province, intentionally lose a battle for the benefits etc.
Then within the battle, all your prep goes into the table talk / mind games / bluffing / alliances you've cultivated. Add in the variable powers, monsters etc. and for our money it's pretty tough to beat.
One video game with a fairly unique combat system is Indivisible. It is a combination of turn based rpg combat and a fighting game. You have a party of four characters, and each character gets a dedicated button. When you push a button, and have an available action pip, that character will spend that pip and go and attack whatever monster is being targeted. These attacks don't automatically deal damage to the target, instead they have a hit box. Any enemy inside the hit box is damaged, and those outside are unaffected. So you can pick up extra damage against a tight group of monsters or whiff a low attack against a flying monster. Then spent pips fill up slowly, sort of like Final Fantasy's Active Time Battle system.
My favorite part of the game's combat is a resource called iddhi. You get this resource by landing attacks, and get more if you manage to chain attacks into a combo. One of the main ways to spend iddhi is on super moves, usually high damage attacks but some characters use iddhi to heal the party. But you also spend iddhi when you try to block attacks made by the monsters. So you have to play defense very carefully if you want to be able to pull off any of the cool super moves.
One of my favorite combat mechanics is in a Digital game called Banner Saga. Units have strength which is Hit Points but also determines how well you do in battle so the closer you are to death the worse you do, but you also have armor that negates exactly that much damage but you can chose to attack someones armor or strength its fun getting upgrades that maybe pierce armor or break armor easier. its really awesome and when think about really good combat systems this one comes to mind.
_Rex_ is actually a remake of _Dune_ (although there are at least two board games called Dune).
@34:18 Ah yes, Cry Haddock. A game of piscine grief.
Starcraft The Board Game
The combat itself is not very special, it is kinda of interesting that units have slight variation of strengths
But the real interesting aspect is how you set yourself up for combat with the movements and building before hand. Suspecting that an attack is coming the opponents can block ones build order so there will be less units part of the attack. That to me is great strategy-combat mechanisms!
Heros of Land Sea and Air has a really cool combat mechanism where each player has 7 different cards to chose from each being able to have certain advantages over the other one. Each one has a amount of strength that it adds to your army and also a cost. though if you can't afford the cost you can chose to sacrifice one of your troops to be able to afford it.
Played Wildlands with the wife last night and I like the combat in that game. A lot of people complain because you can’t usually knock someone out in one (or two or three) rounds, but if you’re patient and tactical, you can usually score one or two kills to go along with your gems making up the balance. I’m hankering for a four player game of it to see how chaotic it gets with four people on the board.
Picked up Cry Havoc a couple of weeks ago and haven’t gotten it to the table yet. Might happen tomorrow depending on player count.
Shogun (Wallenstein) has a unique combat mechanic where you drop cubes in a tower and the winner is determined by whose cubes fall out. The combat system (particularly sieges) in War of the Ring is thematic and the use of combat/event cards adds tension to every round of battle.
Shogun indeed has a wonderful combat system! I especially like that, while there is a lot of randomness, you will get those cubes/soldiers back at some point, and thus your overall 'luck' is very well mitigated
Hi Jemey!
Really cool video and extremely interesting topic. I would love to see you going through some mechanic and all the design involved in even more detail.
On combat in Scythe: I love the game. I have all expansions (except for extra encounters) and some premium components. The only thing I wish was different in Scythe is combat :P I guess it may depend slightly on whom you play with, but each time I've played it combat was the most predictable and least exciting part of the game. In my experience there is very little that may happened after you decide to go into combat. Since you need a really good reason for going in and almost all information is open everyone know the result of the battle from the very beginning. I understand it is well-connected to other systems of the game and it is very efficient, but I wish there was more to it. I would love to see a vide where you go through all discarded mechanics you've mentioned and talk about the design choices here. I think it bother quite a lot of people when they play Scythe for the first time. It is a game about war, but there is very little combat to it and battles are not terribly fun.
On Heroes of Might and Magic: It is really interesting that the thing you've liked in HoM&M was automatic combat. I think there is such option, but I've never used it, since "proper" combat is so fun. It has been years since H2. Why haven't you played other ones? If you would like to jump back I would recommend Heroes 6. Do not try H7. :P
MTG: I wonder what is you opinion on this game. Personally I like it if it is played in good company, but the game itself is super archaic and most of the time is not fun on its own merits.
I hope I am not too late with this comment :P
I just don't play many video games, hence why I didn't continue after some of the early Heroes of Might and Magic games. As for Magic, I post a video about it every time I draft a new set (all I do now is play 1 draft per set). But I love the game--you'll find it on my recent top 10 list of my favorite games. :)
24:23 for the Top 10.
Also in Superhot they move at the same speed as you. It is best in VR. Even looking to your right lets them move.
I so guessed right that cry havoc was on your list :) :)
I know it takes a lot of effort to edit videos, but I would really love to see some snippets in the bottom left corner or something of a picture about what you're talking about, even if it's just for 3-5 seconds to show us what you're talking about. I'm familiar with a lot of these games, but some I'm not. And it would really help pull me into what you're talking about if I also had a visual to go along with it. Your words are very articulate and well understood when explaining - but having that visual would be super nice to go along with it. Thanks for all you do! Love your content :)
Yep, we've been doing that for the last 2 years. Check out Sunday videos posted since around this time in 2021--you have around 100 videos to catch up on. :)
FYI, Aristeai is a skirmish game with an interesting combat mechanism. It use custom dice like Doom. But the neat thing is that both attacker and defender can trigger various ability depending on the dice results. What I like is the ability to make decisions AFTER the dice are rolled based on the results, rather than just go with the dice results as in most game.
Nice! I, too, like the idea of making decisions after the dice are rolled.
X-Com. I like you you can actually flank enemies to increase damage. So rather than just rolling a die, your position matters.
Malifaux has an excellent combat system.
I agree.
Very good topic ! I think that it is one of the most important thing in a boardgame, and it's hard to make it interesting without making it too convoluted.
Have you ever considered making a video about Boardgame that actually, according to your opinion ofc, fail doing it ? I mean it's like cinema there is so many stuff that are now mastered by most of the movie we see, and a bad movie put more perspective to what those movie are doing right. I think bad movie highlights more why good movies are good by underlining the quality of them.
So i think it would be interesting to share some of those "imperfect game", it also helps the people following you to understand the paradigm in which you function and place the cursor somewhere.
Also i like that you mention all those mechanics ! But what is your thoughts about balance on them ?? Like for example some games mechanics are so random it goes full banana, and then there is chess at the extreme opposite. A good example is what Hearthstone did by having random effect in the beginning where a lot of game was about Ragnaros aiming the right target, but it offered the same unfairness to both side. Do you think it's good to have strong result to turn tables and having everybody having the same possibility ? Or low risk and low reward ?
Also what's your opinion on mechanics that hinders other player. Like Res Arcana who just received the "Golden Ace" in Cannes, or 7 Wonders, smallworld etc ... ?
thank you very much for you time
Thanks for your comment! I try to keep things positive, but yes, sometimes I talk about how a game might try to do something and not succeed at it (sometimes even with a suggestion from me).
I love randomness and variability, but I generally stay away from games where luck plays a much higher role than player agency.
As for mechanisms that hinder other players, I like it when they don't completely prevent an opponent from doing something, but rather just make it more difficult for them (and gives them an interesting decision).
Rex is re-skin of Dune (which TTG said is the board games holy grail).
The combat in Dune is tricky. You either spend ages working out what you are going to do or you know in seconds what you are going to do(especially the Atreides).
If you have anyone with Analysis Paralysis in your group you might end up never attacking them solely because they take so long working out what they're going to do.
Still a nearly perfect system of cost/benefit in combat, you lose everyone you send to fight regardless of the outcome. So you really really have to think about winning not only the fight at hand but also the next fight along if you can't reinforce.
Chess: the x-ray attack. I like how you can double your attack strength by setting up a position.
As far as dice rolling goes, I really like the dice in the original Descent 1E…
where/how do you print/publish the board games you design?
Nice!
Hi Jamey,
Thanks for the great video, a very interesting subject and I guess a very tricky one for game designers.
Have you had a look at Neuroshima Hex? I've played it a few times with friends and I find it really catchy.
It's nice to see some love for AFAOS, this is one of my favorite duelling games but it's so hard to bring to the table.
I'm a very old card gamer, so I'm still addicted to combat in Vampire : The Eternal struggle. Even if it only involves two of the 4-5 players at the table I've always seen everyone watching the showdown.
Any chance of seeing your name next to Richard Garfield on a game box? ^^
I haven't played those games, but I appreciate the recommendations! As for Richard Garfield, it would be amazing to design a game with him. :)
I would like to include Tsukuyomi full moon down to the list. It has a Ai combat and it also has a player combat. Players on there turn can use the Oni ai creatures to harass other players. For dueling games Super Fantasy brawl has a sweet dueling combat.
when does the Tapestry expansion come out? that's such a great game.
Thanks! Hopefully later this year.
Anyone have strong opinions on Root? I just pre-ordered a copy to their next printing but i feel like its sort of a polarizing game to talk about and was curious if anyone else happen anything to share?
Forbidden Stars!
I really like the combat mechanism in 868 Vikings: Invasion of England. Army on army: call-up of support; cards-in-hand that change strength assumptions made before battles; dice rolls that inflict hits, strategically withdraw, or flee; multiple rounds (dice rolls) with the result in doubt. Has Jamey tried this one?
I've heard great things, but I haven't tried it. It sounds like I need to!
Is Flipships...analog Space Invaders?
I haven't played the most recent printing but assume it is the same - Shogun has a combat system where you have different levels of troops and the dice roll needed on a d6 varies by the quality of the troops in question. Obviously these troop types have differing costs in the economic side of the game to offset their combat effectiveness. Makes mass combats fairly quick in what is a long game.
On an unrelated note, I was thinking about aspects of roleplaying that I enjoy and one of those is character creation. I was trying to think of boardgames where you can design your own character or kingdom from a range of choices before you start but couldn't really think of any - most games have pre-designed characters. Are there any you could suggest?
Roll Player is a puzzly game that's all about building your own character. As for other tabletop games with strong elements of character creation...all of the games I can think of let you define your character/kingdom over the course of the game, not at the beginning.
@@jameystegmaier Thanks for taking the time to respond, much appreciated. By coincidence I was watching DT "Top 10 Adventure Games" today and discovered one I hadn't heard of - Hexplore It. Tom was like "why haven't I heard of this before???" and I was the same.
There are a number of games you might be thinking of, but Heroes of might and magic has never been an auto-battler (although there is an "auto" button you can push, which maybe you just accidentally turned on once, and then played with it on for a long time.
ugh...if all this time he was playing with that auto button on. Boy, he missed out on a great game.
Given all the aspects you mention that you like in a combat mechanism, I'm quite surprised that Inis didn't get a mention anywhere.
I've only played it once, and while I remember the draft mechanism pretty well, I can't remember anything about the combat. Hence why I didn't mention it.
I must say that you might check up on your definition of determinism. Determinism doesn't mean that you only have to compare two numbers. The term determinism comes from philosophy and computer science. In computer science it is used to distinguish algorithms which produce the same result for the same inputs in contrast to algorithms which may produce different results even if the inputs are the same (this might be because there is some randomness involved in the algorithm for example). This means that a deterministic combat system is one where you can calculate the combat outcome with 100% certainty if you had perfect information. Note though that you do not need to have perfect information for it to be deterministic only that you could if you had.
I feel like this is what people mean when they say that something ist deterministic: It might be complex and there might be hidden information but there ist no randomness involved.
"This means that a deterministic combat system is one where you can calculate the combat outcome with 100% certainty if you had perfect information."
I agree with that definition.
I have played both games over 5 times and I feel Rising Sun built on Cry Havoc and enhanced it. The coins that you secretly bid on the spot make it more exciting, political and less deterministic than in Cry Havoc where you are just openly putting your few figures that is known. Spending the coins simultaneously in Rising sun adds the excitement of guessing what the opponent will try to bid for
I have a game in the works. Currently working on the card art. Taking forever as we are designing the art for each card. Any tips on getting them done?
Definitely! Check out the related articles on the following page under "Before You Launch / Art and Graphic Design": stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter/full-list-chronological/ If you have any questions after reading an article, just mention it in the comments of that article.
@@jameystegmaier Thanks mate. I believe your gonna love my scifi space game! The story immersion, the events that take place and the race for domination! My Game is Called Zer0 -G "Conflict"
I think there aren't many games out there that do combat really well, and in some games when an attack happens, you have so little means to deal with it that it feels like paying taxes.
* If you've ever played Ascension, while there is combat, it basically just operates in the game as another non-interchangeable currency. I guess you could call that deterministic combat in that you know before the fight whether or not you are going to win.
* There's always dice based combat if you want the possibility of failure, but if you have a really bad roll that can sort of take you out of the game.
* Then there's simultaneous reveal, the best example of which is rock-paper-scissors, which is fine, but it feels a little flat in the sense that its one and done and there isn't much you can do about the outcome.
* I think outcome mitigation is necessary for any combat mechanic to have a little depth to it. Imagine playing rock-paper-scissors, but best of 3. Then add 3 more symbols. Let's call the original symbols attacks, and the new symbols blocks. The 3 new symbols block and only block 2 of the 3 attacks (they have no attack powers), each one leaving you open to a different one of the 3 attack symbols. Just, but I suppose that would risk combat taking too long, wouldn't it?
That's an intriguing idea, particularly if it could be executed quickly.
I have a scifi game in the works and looking for a simple melee combat to use between 2 factions of say 6 crew members on each side. I tried the D6 dice kinda like warhammer but its a bit much and too time consuming because of the gameplay doing many other things like travel and events etc...
Can anyone help me with this? What does he mean when he says streamlined? Does that mean simplified?
By “streamlined” means that the combat mechanisms are easy to understand and quick/simple to use
Kingdom Death: Monster?
Shogun/Wallenstein should be on this list if not number 1. Has Jamey not played it or did he play it so long ago that he no longer has clear memories of it? Battle for Rokugan has also a great combat mechanism with I high bluff element.
I haven't played either, though I have played other games with cube towers, including one where it's used for combat (Edge of Darkness).
I think you mixed up Heroes of might and magic with Warlords 3 Darklord Rising (dunno about the others). In homm combat is manual while In Warlords 3, you hire troops, arrange them in your stacjk in any order and when you fight, everything is automated with dice rolls.
Nothing beats dice for combat. As much as people hate the luck of dice, with the luck comes so much fun and tension. Ideally you need a big enough game with enough dice rolls such that bad luck in one battle won’t destroy your entire game. Axis & Allies 1940 Global is my favorite for this. It’s a 20 hour game, but highly strategic and each round there are 15-25 battles being rolled out. Some battles are more important than others, but in a lot of cases you can dedicate extra units to a really important battle such that you have 99%+ odds of winning. Sometimes it’s worth making an attack where the odds are against because you can afford to lose the units more than your opponent, and/or you have more to gain than lose. Dice are amazing.
definitely Cry Havoc.
The only game I have that you mentioned that I have is Stratego. I play mostly "war games". Though I do enjoy Horrified Forbidden Island and Clue(6 or 7 versions). Why war games? To see if I can win, when one side should not, or did not win. It's all about the challenge. Though I am thinking about getting Root. And as always great n interesting video. No worries on the time. when you have good material and it needs 15 minutes don't try to squeeze iin to 10. use the time that you have to use.
It's funny that you've mention not liking combat systems where players can sort gang up and all go after one player because I've had multiple scenarios in Scythe where that's happened. Basically a player spreads themselves too thin. Has 1 fight where they deplete their combat points/power so they're left wide open and then all the players just come in and start taking bites out of them.
You're right, I dislike combat-oriented games where (a) players are reward for acting out of spite and (b) a player being attacked cannot recover. What you're describing in Scythe, though, is about combat being *meaningful*, which I think it important too. You have the choice in Scythe to spread out to control more territories, but in doing so, you're making yourself a target.
@Jamey Stegmaier I totally agree that it falls on the player for spreading out too much but it still has the same emotional impact on the player who is being ganged up on as it would in a "spite combat game" even if in scythe the attacker's intentions are strategic rather than spiteful. Though I have seen spiteful attacks happen in Scythe as well but that's inevitable with any game with negative player interaction.
@@jameystegmaier I love that about Scythe. My only issue is I have seen is often one player will gain advantage early and then snowball...Making 2/3s of the game a foregone conclusion. But thats just been my experience. Scythe is by the way visually stunning. The artwork is gorgeous. Atmosphere is awesome. I love the importance of each decision. That being said, I really wish there was an easier way to swing the game once it has started.
Dungeon degenerates where the total of your dice needs to be lower than the stat you are using i.e.strength or agility. My group had come off of massive darkness and you wanted to roll high, those first few sessions were head scratchers. Also played a lot of d&d so having to relearn your dice rolls. Not my favorite mechanic but interesting.
Street Master's AI
So, no hardcore combat sims AT ALL???
Sorry, they're not my thing. But you're welcome to share details of your favorites here!
The lack of relevance of combat in Scythe was my biggest disapointement with the game. I went expecting a war game, and didn't got one =/
I can understand that! Scythe is not a war game--it's about what happens after a war.
keyforge > magic
Cry Havoc!
I'm glad you mentioned Dark Souls, but a little dissappointed that it seems like you haven't played it. Lemme break it down for ya:
1. It's not just difficult bosses. ALL the combat is hard, and power level really won't help you. You can be max level with the best gear, and still get killed by the first enemy if you don't know what you're doing.
2. The combat doesn't really allow for button mashing. You can't just win by swinging the biggest sword as hard as you can. It's about timing and zen... and watching your stamina.
3. Understanding how your character moves is just as important as the bosses (tho you have more time to figure the playable character out). Decide to heal at the wrong time? Dead. Swing your weapon at the wrong angle? Dead. Roll the wrong direction? Fall off a cliff and... dead. The game is unforgiving.
No real war games in a combat mechanism top 10? How about Hannibal & Hamilcar, Successors, Stratego or Battle Line?
I really like Stratego, but the combat mechanism itself (my number is higher than yours) isn't exactly top 10 material. :) I like Battle Line too, though I wouldn't put it on this list.
Auto-combat in HoMM2 and 3 is for sassifrasses.
rex = dune....
Drink every time he says "mechanism".
ded
Im dead