The Lore of the Two Blue Wizards in Lord of the Rings - Detailed Lore & Sources - Tolkien LotR Lore
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- Опубліковано 26 лис 2023
- We look into the lore and sources mentioning the mysterious 2 Blue Wizards (Ithryn Luin) including the development of these two Istari in Tolkien's writings from The Lord of the Rings (LotR) to Nature of Middle-earth.
► Disclaimer:
I have permission of the artists to use their art works.
► Artwork and special thanks to:
Kimberly80 - deviantart.com/kimberly80
Ted Nasmith - tednasmith.com
Jenny Dolfen Art - / jennydolfen or goldseven.wordpress.com - etsy.com/de/shop/JennyDolfen
Sara Morello Art - deviantart.com/samo-art
Pete Amachree - artstation.com/summerpudding
Niahti - artstation.com/niahti
BeneF - deviantart.com/benef
Laura Tolton - deviantart.com/lauratolton
Andrés Bertachini Art - / andresbertachiniart
Firat Solhan - www.artstation.com/firatsolhan
► Mentioned videos:
The Istari - • Who are Tolkien's Wiza...
History of the Elves - • Círdan - History and L...
Glorfindel - • Who is Glorfindel? The...
► Sources:
The Lord of The Rings (1954-1955) by J. R. R. Tolkien
The Silmarillion (1977)
The Hobbit (1937; 1951)
Unfinished Tales (1980)
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien Revised and Expanded Edition (2023)
The Peoples of Middle-earth (1996)
The Nature of Middle-earth (2021)
The War of the Ring (1990)
TolkienGateway.net
Maps:
Amazon (John Howe)
Edited by: Murdo
Aman map by ThePhilosophersGames
► Mistakes:
-
► Playlists:
If you are interested in Tolkien's legendary fantasy Epic The Lord of the Rings and his related works, here some recommendations:
Recommended Lore Videos - • Who are Tolkien's Wiza...
Book/Film Differences Series - • LotR Prologue Explaine...
► Time Codes:
Intro - 0:00
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The Philosopher's Games / TPhGames / TPhLore aka Chris
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Gaming Channel - / tphgames
Twitch Channel - / thephilosophersgames
Twitter (@PhilosophGames): / philosophgames
Discord Server - / discord
► Of Games and Rings Podcast:
Spotify - open.spotify.com/episode/4xQx...
Others see: linktr.ee/TPhGames
#LotR #Tolkien #LordOfTheRings - Розваги
I hope you enjoy the video. Did not plan that it would become this long, but I had a lot to say about this topic. Let me know what you think about this "format" (the "freesytled" lore video; though ofc I did my research and prepared, but did not write a script). Let me know what you think about it and also your head canon for the blue Wizards ^^
Also Shout-outs and thank you to the artists:
Kimberly80 - deviantart.com/kimberly80
Ted Nasmith - tednasmith.com
Jenny Dolfen Art - patreon.com/jennydolfen or goldseven.wordpress.com - etsy.com/de/shop/JennyDolfen
Sara Morello Art - deviantart.com/samo-art
Pete Amachree - artstation.com/summerpudding
This is a great format. I didn't realize it was over 40 minutes. There was no time when I thought it dragged.
I think in this format, you don't get stuck in rabbit holes.😁👍🐰
I love your stuff! New Sub.
Surprised you didn't write a script because it sounded so professional - great work!
Buy a proper mic you greedy multiKuser.
Radagast did not stay true to his task . Yet he was not corrupt . the Blue Istari also did not stay true to their task . This does not mean they fell to darkness
Were it not for Radagast, Gandalf would never have been rescued by the Eagles. And his primary task was the protection of nature. He stayed true.
@@citizen_grub4171 ehhhh... His primary task was 100% to fight against Sauron, but then the assistant manager came along a little later and whispered some suggested alterations to those orders with a wink and a nudge.
He was too stoned to remember what he was supposed to do. 😂
This is actually going to be one of ur finest, succinctly put down in spoken word histories. The blue wizards enigma and travels has long required a good think, told. Bravissimo
It seems to me that the names, "Darkness-Slayer" and "East-Helper" are very good clues as to the the potential individual missions or tasks of both blue wizards.
The one named, "Darkness-Slayer", would have had the direct mission to intervene physically against the designs of Sauron and his achievements on the east. Probably he was the more aggressive hunter of the two, who tracked down and destroyed the dark cults that Sauron had planted among the men he corrupted in this region. He may have been a kind of hunter like the Valar Orome who tracked, located and destroyed the dark plots, beasts, cults and evil orders of men as well just like Orome did in the first age against Melkor.
As for the one named, "East-Helper", maybe he was more like Gandalf, a re-builder of the peoples, a guide and Istari of wisdom and council sent to bring the men of the east out of bondage, throw down the corruption they may have endured and brought them back to the light so to speak. To set them on new paths of social stability, peace and prosperity so that they avoided the need or desire to push into the West and cause war through invasion and so on.
To me I believe the two Blue Wizards probably did not always travel together but were often separate due to their clearly different missions and may only have met up together for brief periods to keep each other informed as to what was happening. I also speculate the Dark-Slayer may have entered a particular region first, thrown down the yoke of corruption and evil and then moved on to another region and started all over again. The one named, East-Helper might have then entered the region where the corruption was removed and helped to re-build the societies there and bring about order and prosperity.
Basically, Sauron enters a region first, corrupts and creates cults, then moves on to another region to do the same over and over. When the Blue wizards arrive Darkness-Slayer enters these regions one by one destroying by force all evil and corruption, then moves to the next and does the same thing over and over. Thirdly, East-Helper arrives, helps to rebuild and restore. Basically making the Blue wizards the janitors of the East, cleaning up the mess made by Sauron and making it clean again...
Absolutely Love the Blue Wizards. They have so much mystery, as well as potential for the lore. Really Cool.
agreed ^^ Also one of my favourite topics in the lore
It's just very good to see us revisit this topic of the Blue wizards again.
Love the channel as always
Yes I thought there was some new stuff now from Nature of Middle-earth and that I could cover the chapter "The Istari" in UT in a bit more detail as well. Glad you liked the video ^^
PS. Impeccable artistry. You do find and earn the best of the best, in my esteem. Thank you All! 💙
Got to admit, I absolute love the idea of Melian being the chief of wizards in the first age. I’m going to have to draw a picture of this including “young” versions of all the original 5. My head cannon mixes all these stories together, regardless of contradiction. You can always blame the scribes!
yes that is a pretty cool idea with Melian as chief of the guardians, I agree. Feel free to post your drawing somewhere and share it here ^^
Don't worry mixing things together for your head canon
yeah i love the idea also, but i'll just make all the others aside Olorin as brand new Maiar to fit the overall legendarium
Don't bother imagining them as Young. They came already as old people. It's part of their image.
Yeah. Olorin does not fit this, since he is known as Gandalf, and he himself says that at one point, where he states he was called Olorin when he was young.
What that hints at, is a life cycle of the Maia, and also could hint at a Valar life cycle.@@35Subject
I've missed so many videos! I can't wait to catch up over the Christmas period.
I know this is going to be a fantastic video.
Best wishes to you Chris and hope you are well
Much fun catching up ^^
Have a great Christmas season and best wishes to you as well ^^
I've been intrigued by the narrative of Melian's involvement and potential chief position among the Istari. There's an idea embedded in this theme of Morgoth and Sauron's respective rings being based in the materials of Arda, while Melian may have contributed her essence to a generational "ring" based in the lives and lineage of Numenor, and other free peoples.
Just got the notification!
Super excited for a Blue Wizards video by you.
Hope you like it ^^ I think the way I made it is a bit "special" with discussing all the sources, etc.
It was a fantastic listen! Once again your impeccable usage of sources has made all the difference in presenting this lore.
He just left their adventures open to allow for any possibility. Whatever happened to them it must have been extremely difficult. The 50's texts just talk about their ends (as they surely did), the People of Middle Earth stuff meanwhile hints at the heroic tale of their mission before the fall and the complicated situation in distant lands influenced by Sauron. I think he was just trying to flesh out some people and add a bit of nuance to certain situations as he aged. I like the later revisions - not sure about the guardians bit.. sort of in another life maybe? It gives a great reason for Melian to be lurking around and fall in love with Thingol.
Great stuff Chris, really enjoyed this 🧙♂️
Thank you ^^ Glad you liked it
Perhaps as Radagast was lost due to his fascination with the birds and animals the blue wizards were drawn to the waters with which they shared their robe colors. Some old tales tell of humans who gain the power to change shape to that of an animal but lose their humanity and stay in that form living as they do. I could see them living in an ocean or lake as fish.
One became the Salmon of Wisdom, perhaps.
New lotr lore video of the philosopher, always good news!
Hope you like it ^^
A nice and deep take on the topic. Regarding the Sauron's enemies in the south... It is said in UT: "Of this Order *the number is unknown;* but *of those that came to the North* of Middle-earth [...] the chiefs was five". So the five known Istari chiefs came to the north, two of which went east, at least at first, but who knows how many unknown istari came to the south? BTW Palacendo and Pallando sounds like almost the same name, maybe just a different accent, also Hravandil and Aiwendil might be just a result of language evolution.
Thanks for this. I am trying to write what I would consider middle earth fanfic, because these things deserve more light and to be expanded. I read the silmarillion and was blown away by how much you wont know if you only saw the movies.
Thank you too. Yes agreed, the Silmarillion is truly mind blowing in combination with LotR. Much fun and success writing ^^
Love learning about the Blue Wizards so thank you so much for this video. Looking forward to your upcoming Hobbit watch parties.
Yes Blue Wizards are always a fascinating topic ^^
I still have to decide on when we watch the first Hobbit film.
Wonderful. Much food for thought
Thank you, haha yes for sure ^^
Nice work dude thanks
much appreciated ^^
This is excellent. Thank you!
Thank you as well ^^
Love the backstories and possible connections.
Honestly, can not tell, scripted or not. Just another well put together video ❤
Thank you ^^ After all the not scripted videos I did for the gaming channel, I got some practice. It also helped that I have much knowledge with this topic and I wrote down the quotes I needed 😄
@@ThePhilosophersGamesI can't believe this wasn't scripted! This was great!
@@robk8463 to be fair I recorded this section by section and had some notes + quite a bit of research, but I skipped writing a complete script.
Hey Chris…WooHoo, I’ve been a member for 1 year, 5 months amd 5 days as of this comment 🤘Also, I didn’t get a notification from YT that you had uploaded. I’m Glad I rolled in here to check what was up! God Jul (belated).
If Mandos had been Gen Z, he would be the DOOM SCROLLER of the Valar :)
😂
I love that, after all this time, the blue wizards are still a fascinating mystery. I've spent a couple decades wondering about them. What little we know about them creates so many exquisite possibilities for new stories!
Agreed ^^ I think "edge cases" are always interesting for fans, esp. in LotR. The LotR world often has so many details and background information, that it feels so "alive". As a result it feels plausible for the fans to look into a topic further and maybe uncover something/find some answers, even though in some cases like this, there is actually very little.
I think that the two blue wizards were part of the story of the missing ent wives. Since both are last mentioned being in the east...
If you combine this with Aragorns travels it would make a really great book
Hell, maybe even 3 of them!
It's incredible how you're able to stretch "we don't actually know shit about the blue wizards" to over 45 minutes and still have it be interesting.
haha thank you ^^
That's the art of content creating I guess. But at least I discuss all the sources ^^
Thank you Chris, this is equal in quality to your scripted videos.
Thank you ^^
This deep dive is verily appreciated :>
thank you, happy you liked it ^^
Great video! I wonder if the purported cults established in the East could have played into the cult element of the 'New Shadow' unfinished sequel. We'll never find any evidence of a conscious link, but that could've been a way to tie the sequel to previous works
It makes sense that the Shadow would return to the East, where a lot of evil originates.
@@Enerdhil You mean where Elves and Men woke (in Rhun) -- the seat of evil was in the North, as stated by Tolkien ~
@@BartAllen
Are you saying Rhûn is Cuivienen? Because that's where the Elves awoke.
I don't think we know exactly where Men and Dwarves awoke, except Durin I who awoke in Gundabad. The earliest settlements were in Rhûn, though.
@@Enerdhil Yeah, as according to the Eldar in QS it was located in the east of Endor, which doesn't really change in the maps of the alteration of Arda ~ Great point ~
Wonderful content as always.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the following question; why was Sauron no longer able to assume a 'fair' form after the destruction of Numenor? (If you've already addressed this, I'd be happy to be directed to the relevant video). Does the adoption of a fair form require greater 'energy' than an evil form?
Eru Iluvatar is the One who decides who can take what ëala or fëa and what Fana or hröar. I think of it as a punishment more than anything related to Sauron's power.
"Tell me: where is Gandalf, for I much desire to speak. with. him."
Names change depending on what they have done, currently do, and will do. I can see the same Wizards changing names over time depending on what they become.
It is also clear that all these different names can be interpreted either as of the five, or of another constellation of five with a different purpose, some being ones we know, and others being new adding more to the mix.
well done, M8. Thank you.
thank you, much appreciated ^^
There's some of interesting possibilities when it comes to the Blue Wizards since the publication of The Peoples of Middle-Earth. If they came in the 2nd Age, did they remain through the 3rd Age or did they return to Valinor and then return with the other 3 in the 3rd Age? They could have also succeeded in hindering Sauron's efforts in the East (and possibly the South) for quite a long time but eventually became corrupted or killed by Sauron or even possibly Saruman before the latter returned to the West. In that sense, they could have both succeeded and failed.
So if they came in the Second Age, returned and came back in the Third Age, was that on a reconnaissance mission? If so that would be a great idea and explained why they seemed to be ready for most of what they found. The only problem with that theory is that it is not mentioned that they returned to Aman. They would have had to return by way of Mithlond on one of Cirdan's ships. Some lore master would have made a note about that.
@@Enerdhil😅
Sauron was weak and hiding in mirkwood for hundreds of years. Saruman was not corrupted until being dominated by sauron via the palantir late in the third age. Unlikely they any of them had any contact after saruman returned to the west.
@@bobjohnson1633
Actually Saruman became corrupted the more he researched about the One Ring. That was probably before he encountered Sauron via the Palantir.
I could see the two blue wizards setting the Eastern forces into disarray and weakness, but also succumbing to the darkness. So it's not necessarily a contradiction.
The Blue Wizards also ventured to Harad (the South) ~ I always found it telling that Earendil slew Ungoliant in one draft, in Harad, and the call-name one of the Blue Wizards ~
Oh, at 14:36, refering to Manwe as "the elder king" got my back hair all up. :-) Melkor is the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of all the Valar, who was before the world and made it.
Only a Melkor worshipper would say this. The only mighty thing about Melkor, was how mightily he got kicked out through the Door of Night into the void 😜
@@ThePhilosophersGames Guilty as charged...
JRR Tolkien left many loose ends such as are there any more dragons, how far east did the blue wizards travel and did they stay true to themselves? The beauty of Tokens works was he wrote and allowed all his tales to be subject to our individual interpretations.
Yes he for sure left us some loose end, which is great. But ofc he also often tied up loose ends in his stories and I think he was very good at that as well.
21:40 The Blue Wizards were murdered by Saruman. Gandolf thought he wanted all of their staffs and so that’s why they never returned.
that's an interesting theory as well, but when Saruman met them, he was most likely still faithful to his task as an Istari.
@@ThePhilosophersGames obviously this aspect was a work in progress, clearly in his character to do so. It’s just one way to write it. Like any art form works this great take on a life of its own and write themselves.
Good video
Thank you ^^
I’m wondering if Tolkien wanted to reserve the blue wizards for a later exploration of eastern and Egyptian mythology and magic. When he says they may have become founders of magic traditions, it reminds me of Hermes Trismegistus. The body of JRRT’s work pulls on Norse and Greco-Roman pantheons. Perhaps he was leaving a door open to explore Eastern, African, Māori, and even MesoAmerican mythology.
It is totally not clear what happened to them. Tolkien gives us serveral options and say they are possible.
It seems to me you kinda tend towards them perishing or turning evil. But there is a problem with these options.
If they died, since they are mayar they are not really dead, would they Valar not have send them back, like they did with Gandalf? Certainly that would have been a known event, but that never happended, so we can rule that out.
If they would have turned evil like Sauruman, they should certainly together be able to build an indepandant army, but at least in the LOTR all the men from the east are under Saurons control. And if they fell in the Saurons control, woulf he not have send them, or at least one, the aid in the assult on Minas Tirith or any of the other assults on the West? Yes he would have. But it didn't happen. Furthermore it is stated that the Nazgûl are Sauron's most powefull servants. Surely the wizards would have been more powerful.than mere human, even with their rinhmhs of power.
All of this also did not happen so we can rule that out.
I think they just kinda failed like Radagast failed. Not dying ir turning evil, but just preoccupied with other stuff, and neglecting to do what they were supposed to do. Whatever that was, I don't know, really could be anything. But perishing or became servant of Sauron...no that seems unlikely.
Speakinhlg if which, Sauron is also a mayar, very powerfull. When the ring is destroyed he's done in Middle-Earth, but won't his spirit live in and go to the hall of Mandos? What happened to him?
> It seems to me you kinda tend towards them perishing or turning evil
no (that was at least not my intention), I didn't even give my perspective/head canon on this at all in the video (deliberately), I just discussed all the versions Tolkien wrote. It's just that Tolkien wrote more versions where they failed.
You also can't bring this into harmony with the existing texts anyway. Because in the only version, where they succeed, they arrive in the Second Age in LotR (Appendix B) we can read:
"When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth."
A few sentences later he also we can read "The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) [...]." Which indicated he meant all 5 Wizards came in the Third Age in LotR.
If you consider they failed and became Sauron's servants, then, as you correctly argued, it is strange that they don't play a role in the War of the Ring or that the Nazgûl are considered his most powerful servants. Though the exact quote for this is I think this line in The Shadow of the Past: "Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants." So "most terrible", not "most powerful" and their aura of terror was ofc one of the greatest powers of the Nazgûl. But I would still agree, that with two further Maiar as his servants, we should have heard abut that.
Gandalf being sent back is a special case. He was sent back by Eru. But I agree them perishing seems unlikely.
I personally like the last version the most though, where they succeed and help that the Forces of the dark East won't outnumber the forces of the West.
I think there is potential for fan fiction about the Blue by a talented writer.
yes for sure
"Darkness slayer" suggests he went to the "Darklands" which were home to ungoliant while Easthelper is pretty straightforward.
Possible, but I think that would make little sense, because the mission o the Istari is still in context for Middle-earth and "stir up rebellion" against Sauron (this quote is very explicit: "Their task was to circumvent Sauron"). The Dark Land is very far removed from all of Tolkien's writings (a purely mythological concept of a place out of reach and scope of the story and its characters) and also in the Aldarion and Erendis texts (Unfinished Tales) Tolkien even calls Middle-earth (from the perspective of Númenor") "Dark Lands" ("Rather would I have had you beside me, than any news or gifts from the Dark Lands.").
"Darkness" is a term Tolkien uses at times in context of the One Ring and Sauron and even Mordor, think of the famous line:
"One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."
Even in the text where these names appear we can read:
"and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East"
So the "Dark East" is a thing too.
@@ThePhilosophersGames it seems to me that by going east and south to prevent saurons influence and recruitment of troops is not abandoning their mission, based on letters and notes. But its your thread here, so.
Tolkien quote from a radio interview about the Blue Wizards;
I really do not know anything clearly about the other two - since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
If the Blue wizards went to East, in Post-LOTR writings Tolkien implied that there were more Istari in other regions (probably Harad):
Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs was five.
All the quotes you mention are in video as well.
Though the last quote ("Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five") is actually the oldest; it's from a text collection written for the LotR index that did not make it into released LotR (from about 1954). So it's not directly a post LotR text, more a text from the release time of LotR.
The first quote is from letter 211 from 1958, no idea if Tolkien repeated it in a radio interview, I know it from letter 211 to Rhona Beare from 14. October 1958.
So the version order is: go to east and maybe fail -> go to south an east and very likely fail -> go to east and are successful (1970-1972 text from Peoples of Middle-earth)
Hi everyone, thinking about the line "they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions" according to the fact that they, as alatar are related to Oromë huntsman god (so related to hunt and animals or beasts) makes me clearly think about the haradrims who led oliphants to war.
they are intrinsectly related to the tribal idea and a kind of more cultistic way to handle animal, beasts and great beasts as you can classify oliphants. This is marvellous to think that this can be a really light a shady reference to the blue wizards effects no matter if they were or not more or less successful on their task. And this expandes the idea that maybe there are a thousand more little thing thith which Tolkien can still surprises his fans.
Withards 😂😂😂 made me laugh subbed👍
The English TH is tough for me and confuses my brain often 😅 But thank you for the sub. To be honest though I don't even hear me saying it like Withards, maybe at times. But I now got multiple comment hinting at that.
@@ThePhilosophersGames do you man makes you stand out and way better than AI voice
haha that is a great side effect I guess 😂
My head canon for the Blue Wizards is:
They are in the East trying to help the good Easterlings to organize against Khamûl and Sauron's forces. In my mind, the main kingdom that embraces them has a ruling Queen who is doing everything she can to keep her people on the path of righteousness and resist getting involved with Sauron's wars. They would form alliances with other good peoples of the region including Avari Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits that never migrated West. There would also be trouble from at least one dragon that was on nobody's side but liked to wreak havoc and gather treasures. Maybe one of the two wizards gets killed sacrificing his life to save one of the kingdoms.
I believe the Blue Wizards are the only ones who can help the realms keep out evil influences from within. Alatar and Pallando will be able to detect those who have sold their souls to Sauron. Maybe they outed Khamûl and he was expelled from one of the kingdoms. Then he went to Sauron, got a Ring of Power, then took some of Sauron's army to wage war on the realms that refused to align with Sauron.
I would add them also traveling south, helping with the rebellions against sauron.
@@lloydgush
I am not sure you can come up with evidence that the people of Harad and Far Harad were good guys post-Black Numenorians. Tolkien himself wrote that the Easterling forces of Sauron could have been enough to destroy Gondor, had the Blue Wizards not been somewhat effective in their mission in the East.
@@EnerdhilI never said they all were. Specially post black Numenorians. ("change of management" joke)
@@lloydgush
I just don't see the Blue Wizards having no positive effect on a region of Middle Earth and disappearing from there.
You can keep believing they were in the South. I only have my current opinion because Tolkien clearly stated in one of his Letters that the Blue Wizards DID accomplish something in the East. That means if they went South to Harad or Far Harad, there would be some good people down there at the end of the Third Age. We have no proof of that.
In the published version, Alatar and Pallando utterly failed and may have started some cults of magic. I suppose you rightly based your opinion on this take, rather than the much-later-written Letter.
Anyway, this is why it is difficult to call certain aspects of the Legendarium "canon."
@@Enerdhil The evidence is in Tolkien's writings, specifically NoME through the implication of the Blue Wizards' interventionism in the South to stifle Sauron, regardless of the lines of Anarion in Harad post-Kinstrife ~ Obviously there were conflicts with Gondor and the South, but much is unknown even with the Numenorean settlements in the regions of Far-Harad
It would be great to see a film or read a book about the blue wizards if it was well done
So what, exactly, are the *rods* of the five wizards? I don't recall either Saruman or Gandalf using a rod at any point. They both have staffs and destroying another wizard's staff seems to be a way of chastising or humiliating that wizard. We never get much information regarding Radagast, I seem to recall in the brief mention of him in the LotR books, that neither a rod nor a staff is mentioned as being in his possession. So perhaps Tolkien simply forgot to make that change before actually pubishing?
Rod is another word for staff, maybe used as walking stick. Tolkien uses it in this context a few times in the books. Gandalf ofc has one, Saruman as well. For Radagast there is no direct mention of having one as far as I know, but it seems Radagast has a horse:
"[...] and not far from Bree I came upon a traveller sitting on a bank beside the road with his grazing horse beside him. It was Radagast the Brown, who at one time dwelt at Rhosgobel, near the borders of Mirkwood. He is one of my order, but I had not seen him for many a year." - LotR, The Council of Elrond
and you also rarely imagine Radagast having a horse. He is described as looking like a traveller, so ofc he can have a staff as well (basically a walking stick). We only learn by Saruman that everyone Istari has a rod, but the meaning of those is only slightly hinted at with Gandalf and Saruman. I personally think that they were more symbols of authority (like a sceptre; I think the Sceptre of Annúminas is also one times called a rod) and a walking stick for practical purpose (Gandalf means "wand elf" maybe he because seemd older than the others and was "leaning on a staff"), than magical tool that is need for magic. But you also have to keep in mind that Radagast is mentioned on a few pages in the book. So only very briefly. And that is also when Gandalf telling the council that he met him. As a result we don't get a detailed description of Radagast, which si different for e.g. Saruman and esp. Gandalf, who play much bigger roles in the story and are far more present in the books.
So Saruman's speech is likely the only indirect hint we have, that also Radagast possess a staff/rod. I don't think him having one is too far fetched, to think of a mistake by Tolkien here. His staff is just nor important for the story or his brief appearances, as a result it is not mentioned.
I don't think the Blue Wizards died. Otherwise, their spirits should have went to the Halls of Mandos.
I also don't think they fell to Sauron's influence because that would have been too easy.
But, I definitely think that they are still alive, probably hiding in plain sight, and will reveal themselves to help in Dagor Dagorath
It is said that they lost their way, so they sought their own interests at some point. Sauron hungered for power, while radagast was lost among his flora and fauna.
Radagast was not lost in flora and fauna at all. His purpose was to limit Sauron's influence on those forms of life.
He also had another purpose from Yavanna, since she specifically pushed for him to go, and it hints at the fact that she wanted him to stay in Middle Earth, to nourish the flora and fauna that she cherishes, which is in line with her creation of the Ents. @@bobjohnson1633
i always assumed that the two blue wizards went to the far east lands the other tribes of the eastern men came from and helped free them from the shadow but then went native after a time there its something that happens even in our own world in the past it was common
I think it wouldve been very cool to see the Blue Wizards appear out of nowhere at the fall of Sauron and the destruction of the one ring.
I think that if they did succeed with their mission, the would have merited a spot on the return ship with everyone else and somehow, would have been present on it. Which leads me to think they died or turned evil.
Yes for sure, having them there would be cool, but they got to Middle-earth somehow on their own, so I think they will be able to find ways back to Aman on their own as well.
Gandalf’s name in Valinor was Olórin.
yes
Great video, however your use of nineteen hundred... makes me feel ancient.
Thank you. haha sorry, but yes it's also unreal for me how time just flies 😅
The two Blue Wizards, according to Tolkien, headed into the East. However, Pallandro & his friend were sent to Middle Earth in the Second Age, to stir up opposition to Sauron. The two Blue Wizards returned to Middle Earth after Numenor's downfall. These were followed later by Saruman after he accompanied Rhadagast to Middle Earth. We have no information to say how successful or disastrously this incursion was. Saruman returned West, wether persued or retreating to safer territory, again is unknown.
That is not 100% correct. Is this a ChatGPT text? 😄
Check the video, all the sources of Tolkien are in there. E.g. in the text where they are called Pallando & Alatar they arrive in the Third Age, maybe around the year T.A. 1000 as well. There is a text of Tolkien from the 70s, where they arrive in the Second Age (before the Downfall of Númenor) and here they are called Morinehtar and Rómestámo instead. The success of them als depends on the text. In some texts it's not clear, but feared they failed. In one (the mentioned one from the 70s) they are actually successful.
All in the video, if you are interested.
What did the Myar know that made them turn 🤔 did they see sympathy for morgoth corruptions of the song? Was this like a fallen angle concept 🤔? The fact Sarumon corupted them also doesnt seem like its their fault persay? Idk
Saruman had these little moments with Gandalf and was envious. This made him slowly work towards his own goals and becoming more powerful until he felt he could challenge Sauron. The Blue Wizards are Maiar as well, so they don't have an excuse if they get corrupted. Also it's not clear if Saruman corrupted them. I don't think so, because so early on Saruman was still faithful. Sauron maybe could have corrupted them though. But also here it would be their fault, because they are no weak mortals, that are far below the powers of Sauron, but are equals of Sauron.
What happened to the other rings of power after the one ring was merked?
I assume you mean after the One was destroyed?
The RIngs were all bound to teh One Ring and use Sauron's "tech". So the other Rings lose their power. Here some quotes from Tolkien himself ^^
"Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last." (The Silmarillion)
"Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders of Highelven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back time, and depart." (Letter 144)
Explicitly about the Three Rings:
"Yet many voices were heard among the Elves foreboding that, if Sauron should come again, then either he would find the Ruling Ring that was lost, or at the best his enemies would discover it and destroy it; but in either chance the powers of the Three must then fail and all things maintained by them must fade, and so the Elves should pass into the twilight and the Dominion of Men begin." (The Silmarillion)
@ThePhilosophersGames yeah that's what I was asking. Thanks. Cause I'm confused why galadriel for instance didn't turn to dust when the one ring to rule them all was destroyed.
Do the colours of the robes have meaning?
Good question. For some Istari there is a fitting theme, but Tolkien never explained it explicitly. Gandalf is grey -> wise; Radagast is borwn -> maybe Earth/nature. Saruman is White -> maybe pure, goodness, at least he should have been like this, but he failed ofc in the end. Saruman later introduces himself as Saruman of many colours, wearing robes that "if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered". Maybe implying that he now went beyond the scope he was originally sent and then also Gandalf becomes Gandalf the White. For the Blue wizards it's hard to tell. Blue can mean inspiration and their task was to stir a rebellion against Sauron in the Dark East, so in "enemy territory", which I imagine as being very difficult. They were also Maiar of Oromë, the Vala of Hunting
@@ThePhilosophersGames thank you so much for your response! Makes sense (for the ammount of info available about them)
One more thing. Would they wear the same colour blue?
Ok 2 more, are they able to change their shape and appearance? I might be reaching here but if the blue wizards went into the east, them being "white/caucasian" wouldn't that have hindered them integrate into the eastern societies? Maybe thats why they failed? (Assuming the people from the east arent white, i havent looked into it..this just came to my mind😅)
I think the robe of many colors that Saruman adorned himself in were a sign of his hubris and corruption. How he was disregarding the purpose that he was sent with (the White robe) and choosing a different, self serving path instead.
t@@ThePhilosophersGames
I rely on subtitles and it’s not clear, yiu saying E Study a lot? Because it’s not really subtitles well when you say that. I can’t tell. Otherwise, thank you for a wonderful video. Definitely following.
It’s Istari
Yes sorry =/ That is the biggest problem with this free style video format: no correct subtitles. Usually I upload my script and YT creates correct subtitles. Then you also get Istari instead of E Study in those 😅 Now with this I don't have a script so YT automatically generates subtitles itself, which leads to tons of mistakes, esp. with names.
No one says "nineteen hundred fifty-eight" anymore but rather "nineteen fifty-eight".
Yes in German (my native language) you say it like nineteen hundred fifty-eight and it simply happens at times, though I try to usually go with nineteen fifty-eight, but while freestyling it gets very difficult to get rid of the habit. Further reading numbers in English also always slightly confuses me for a short moment, because in German for strange reasons we switch the numbers while reading them. So we don't say fifty-eight, but eight-fifty. How you do it in English makes ofc more sense, but if you are used to it your whole life, my brain always needs a moment, which makes things more difficult for me. Interestingly when I switch the numbers by accident in English I will say 1985 instead of 1958. xD
@@ThePhilosophersGamesI was absolutely positive that you were from the balkans due to your accent!
great video, I loved it, keep em up. :D
Are you saying at no point did they run into the two blue wizards? Even during the war, they were never seen again?
🤘🏽💙🔥
😄
@@ThePhilosophersGames great video again my friend. Soo interesting
Thank you ^^ Yes I also really like the topic
Gandalf 2.0. :-) I think there is only one Gandalf. Mithrandir, the Grey Wizard. :-)
Wouldve made a much better theoretic story for ,Amazon to work with.
I said this initially.!
This sounds like in Rings of Power we see one Blue Wizard? Seems to fit with what you say around 30:00-36:00
You could definitely argue into this direction (and it would kind of fit), but the problem is: they don't have the rights to these texts and him (the Stranger) saying "always follow your nose" is a Gandalf reference from PJ's LotR films. They only have the rights for LotR and The Hobbit (books). In those we know there are 2 more wizards (as explained in the video), but that those 2 are the Blue Wizards we only learn in Unfinished Tales, etc. And considering how much they changed what is in the books, I think they don't care that Gandalf was not in Middle-earth as a wizard/Istar in the Second Age (and the Blue Wizards also only arrive in one version during the Second Age as well).
@@ThePhilosophersGames Thanks for the clarification, I kind of forgot that with the rights. Otherwise it was just one check mark going after the next.
Only say 19 54 not 19 hundred and 54 it's incorrect just to let you know only time you'd use that is if you're saying the 19 hundreds talking about that century like. 12hundreds or 18 hundreds they're blocks of time not dollars or units
Yes i know, but I struggle with this, esp. if i freestyle a video. I copy paste my reply to another user, which explains why it happens:
"In German (my native language) you say it like nineteen hundred fifty-eight and it simply happens at times, though I try to usually go with nineteen fifty-eight, but while freestyling it gets very difficult to get rid of the habit. Further reading numbers in English also always slightly confuses me for a short moment, because in German for strange reasons we switch the numbers while reading them. So we don't say fifty-eight, but eight-fifty. How you do it in English makes ofc more sense, but if you are used to it your whole life, my brain always needs a moment, which makes things more difficult for me. Interestingly when I switch the numbers by accident in English I will say 1985 instead of 1958."
Who should have played the blue wizards in a Peter Jackson lord of the rings movie? My pics are Liam Neeson and Mark Hamill.
that's a cool pick to be honest ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames thank you!
Withards?
?
@@ThePhilosophersGames That's how you are pronouncing the word wizards.
Not sure to be honest. I get a lot of feedback on pronunciation esp. my TH/S troubles, that one is the first time somebody mentions this. If I say the word wizard now, my tongue position is on the Z sound position. Maybe I mess it up at times or more often than I think?
@@samizdat113dobro bre busti čoveka ima naglasak
pusti*
What if the blue wizards were actually the wicked witch of the west and the east
Wizard of oz is Saruman aswell
The Valars are some bad board of directors. Gave a project and left it to fate, never kept on eyes of their employees nor disciplined goofing ones.
The Blue Wizards were named such for their dirty Dwarven jokes.
Thank you. The first intentional joke here that is funny.
There’s nowhere near enough information about the blue wizards to make a video this long.
I discuss every source in the video in quite some detail. When I started with the video I also thought it would be like 10-15 minutes and was surprised it got this long as well.
Apologies for this - a boring note on your use of English at one point. You can't say 'I hope you find this remotely interesting'. Remote means far removed. The negative is 'I don't find this remotely interesting' ie not even at a distance. But it doesn't have an equivalent positive version on the flip side of that coin.
English is a language of workmen and peasants lol it's rules are changing all the time. His English is better than most native English speakers
Couldn't that be interpreted as "I hope you find this distantly interesting" with an implied "at least?" You might be technically correct here but this usage isn't uncommon and usage wins out over dogma in linguistics 100% of the time.
The common phrase is "I hope you find this even remotely interesting" the even being the key word. It makes complete sense in that regard. You are hoping someone finds some interest or use for what you are saying.
@@OldManMemeshmmmm...seems true. I'm a fan of old english and creole "french" influenced English
It seems to me that Tolkien wasted a lot of time on backstory. Imagine if he had put his energy into writing a new adventure set in the fourth age.
He actually started writing a LotR sequel, but abandoned the idea after some pages and commented in Letter 256:
"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall [of Mordor], but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going round doing damage. I could have written a ‘thriller’ about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would be just that. Not worth doing."
And I personally really appreciate that. A story that just ends and is not forcefully continued for the sake of keeping a franchise alive, even though the writers have not many new things to tell. Though I also know the feeling: wouldn't it be great if we had more?
I also think it's not wasted and that all these backstory details are fundamental to Tolkien's works. That is what makes the world so interesting for me. Diving into old texts and lore and seeing how it connects to the events of LotR and the rest of the world is a mind blowing experience for me.
You call it wasting time on backstory, when everyone else appreciates it as some of the best world building in English literature, philistine.
OP's got a fair point, though.
To use a more recent example of a British writer in the genre, more of the Harry Potter lore is a result of addressing fan questions on the Pottermore website and providing post hoc explanations to egregious plot holes than was actually included in and explained by the books. Then the movies sanded off the rough edges and provided a veneer of stunning visuals and a driving score to keep the emotional rollercoaster going, instead of allowing anyone to focus on any one discrepancy for too long.
Yes imagine if tolkien had abandoned his passions and sought to just churn out books. Think of how many bland and forgettable stories would have been written and he could have died knowing he hadnt apent his life pursuing his passion. That way every one could have gotten nothing that they want
@AnnoyingNewsletters except the potter lore is still loaded with massive plot holes and the fixes for the few parts that are addressed create more plot holes. Any amount of digging into its lore exposes these issues some of which are just goofy like in one book wizards dont wear muggle clothes at all and then next book one of them has a mom who sends them sweaters and they all wear pants and dress shirts and normal clothes with robes over it. But then theres time turners which are obviously world breaking but they gave one to a 14 year old, but then all of them are kept in 1 box on 1 shelf in a massive room unguarded so they can all be destroyed. But their existence is widely known so why wouldnt voldemort have been interested in what boils down to the most powerful artifact in all of wizardom outside of the philosophers stone. Tolkien wrote his books secondary to his passion which was language. He wasnt trying to churn out books to cash in, he wrote stories to support his languages because that was his passion. They would be so much worse if he just wrote his ideas. You can see what that looks like in all the garbage disney, netflix, and prime series that just dump out ideas with n consideration for continuity and real world building