3:50 No way, dude! "Sometimes you may find that a particular terrain feature makes it hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this, provided it is still physically possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer. Position, so long as both players agree and know its actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility." GT2020 p. 199
Guess you could say that it is indeed "misplayed relatively commonly" when your own video does misplay the rule. People do make mistakes though, it's no biggy. I'm not even sure the majority of the community plays it that way, not that I've seen since they debunked the whole thing in an FAQ back in 8th Edition. But yeah, the use of the Wobbly Model hint (Which is not even a rule mind you) to get a "free placement card" of model is quite a stretch, to say the least.
To be clear here, people are disagreeing with the video saying that you can place models in places that they don’t physically fit if the base fits. The above quote from the rule book supports the argument that you have to be able to physically place the model. You can’t stick wings through walls unless they can actually fit out a window.
Glad someone else pointed this out, was about to do the same! Models are measured from the base but still have physical size. I suspect its poor practice leaking over from TTS.
8:25 You don't need a wall to move vertically within a ruin, you can move vertically at any time but you need to have the Infantry, Beast or Swarm keywords and the terrain requires the Scaleable trait to be able to move through Floors/Ceilings.
A model can only be moved vertically while moving over terrain, so you can't just levitate yourself to the second floors of buildings without being in contact with the building.
@@TacticalTortoise if you are within a ruin, you are over terrain. "A model can be moved vertically in order to climb up, down and over any terrain features that are higher than this, counting the vertical distance up and/or down as part of its move." No part of that says you need a wall to climb up, it just says Models can be moved vertically. Terrain is abstract in 40k, walls don't need holes in them for Breachable to work, you don't need Stairs, Walls or Ladders to make use of Scaleable.
@@ShasLaMontyr Yeah; it's definitely a poorly worded rule, but I think the operative phrase is "move vertically in order to climb terrain features". The specification that models "climb" implies that they're meant to actually scale the surface of the terrain. There's definitely some wiggle room for interpretation tho.
@@TacticalTortoise I really think your version is taking terrain far too literally. This also makes some of the gantry industrial stuff pretty difficult to use, as the models would all need to move to a pillar or ladder, move up and have movement left to get out of the way of subsequent models. I tend to just view the Scalable trait as being abstraction for either piles of rubble that can be climbed between floors that are not necessarily modelled, or that my units are using climbing gear to left themselves up through damage and ruined flooring.
The only sort of terrain which is part of the battlefield is hills: "Hills are always considered to be part of the battlefield itself rather than a terrain feature"
Point of clarity for the Flyer Minimum Move - when determining if the flyer has moved it's minimum distance from the starting point, you measure to the same spot on the base both times. The back of the base does not have to be the minimum distance from where the front of the base was.
5:15 The Wobbly model rules say if it's "hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall". It doesn't provide permission for placing models in places they are unable to fit in entirely, the physical size of a model does limit where it can go.
No; the restriction for placement space is just for the base, since only the base is used is used for measurement and the rest of the model is ignored, but you still need a space to fit the base without overlapping other models or terrain etc.
@@TacticalTortoise that is not said at all in the rules. Wobbly model says "Sometimes you may find that a particular terrain feature makes it hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken" A model being hard to place somewhere, and impossible to place somewhere because it doesn't fit, are two very different things. Wobbly model as a "Hint/Tip" is used when balancing a model somewhere might risk it being damaged, it still needs to physically be able to go where it is being said to be, and the latter bit of the rule requires you to be able to hold the model in the actual location for checking LoS, which is impossible if the model doesn't fit in that location. "If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility."
That mention about the action not failing because you got charged and had a fight phase 👌🏻 on point and I feel so validated lol, I noticed the way this was worded on my first read through of the 9th rulebook yet I still see bat rep UA-cam channels and hear of people playing this wrong! I try to inform people of the correct way and people just don’t want to hear it, even refusing to read the rule when you present it to them to clarify, simply because it’s misplayed so often that it’s become like the Mandela effect and that’s not counting the times you get called “rules lawyer” or other derogatory names for trying to correct this one thing...
This was great! An idea for a video is "how to play X army", for instance, necrons, how to you choose a dynasty and how does it affect the game, command protocols, what are they are what do they do. Common cmd.phase options, etc etc. Like a how to play an army for dummies video. could include list building for beginners
Is there any FAQ for Wobbly Models Syndrome or do i Get it Wrong? What you did with this Hive Tyrant is wrong i guess, as to use Wobbly Models Syndrome model still needs to fit there Physicaly (core rules pg5 Hints and Tips - Wobbly Models ). What you did is definitely not fiting there physically. "Sometimes you may find that a particular terrain feature makes it hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this, provided it is still PHYSICALLY possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer position, so long as both players agree and know its ‘actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility.)"
The requirement for physical space is just to ensure that your base can be placed where the model is setting up; since it's illegal to overlap other bases or terrain you can't stand on with your base. Once your base can be placed there are no other requirements.
@@TacticalTortoise There is. Model have to be able to fit there Phisically. It is nowhere written, that since you measure to/from base the Physical Form of the model does not metter. The less "virtual agreements" in this game, the better. " provided it is still PHYSICALLY possible to place the MODEL in the desired location,". Think it over ;) As long as I play I never saw something like you showed on the video. Wobbly model is for situation, when you put a model f.e. on a Steep Hill, where it can be PHISICALLY placed but there is a danger that it knock over and fall.
@@TacticalTortoise You'd seriously let me put something like a Ta'unar inside a ruin on the ground floor, as long as I brought a spare base to prove that there's room for that? Crazy talk. Nothing in the rules implies you can put a model somewhere it doesn't physically fit. The fact you use exclusively the base to MEASURE your movement distance doesn't mean the rest of the model is irrelevant to the movement. "Moving Over Terrain" section: "When a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved over a terrain feature but not through it (so models can’t move through a wall, but can climb up or over it)." That means the whole model, not just the base.
great video! I do wish you had covered how terrain works a little though - a lot of people seem to think you can magically see through the area terrain you are in even if it actually blocks LOS, or that you can touch the outside wall of a ruin to be within it (Common house rule which is fine, but people think it is RAW/I)
Great video! Another rule I see people getting wrong pretty often is Objective Secured. A lot of people think that the player with more ObSec models on an objective control the objective. However, if 2 players both have any number of ObSec models on an objective, then the player with more models (ObSec or otherwise) controls the objective. In short: 1 ObSec + 3 non-ObSec > 3 ObSec
Can someone please confirm the Look Out Sir points he made? Those seem WAY different than my understanding. In some of those examples, despite the Character being in the open, and visible, because a vanguard vet is hiding 6-7 inches away behind a los blocking terrain (single Model)... I somehow cannot shoot the character? Despite having a clear, as the crow flys, firing lane? I see this being abusable with 1 model hiding in a weird spots applying protecting (closest model rules) without having a firm grounding in Rules as Intended.. I am newish to the game but that seems broken or very odd to play with.
If the character is within 3" of a friendly unit and there is a unit nearer to the shooter then the character cannot be targeted. So yes; a sneaky well hidden scarab swarm will stop you shooting a character (if the character is within 3" of a friendly unit)
@@sussexminis3825 So def rules as written but if that swarm is not even viewable (or a valid shooting target at all) by the shooting unit... that's IMO is not rules as intended.
@@dmck1436 it is as intended. Look out sir has been faq’d at least once and they could have easily added a ‘visible’ in there alter it but they haven’t. GW definitely want it played how it’s written.
I need to read this section covered at 3:48 about only needing the models base not the model in the correct location , that makes a huge difference , in 2 recent games I had Dimachaeron charges go from 3" and 6" to 11" and 14" because of ruin levels sticking out .
For me, this is explained Wrong. Wobbly model syndrom can only be used if model PHYSICALY Fits in the spot you Want to place it. In shown Case this HT totally does not fit there PHYSICALY... Sometimes you may find that a particular terrain feature makes it hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this, provided it is still physically possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer Position, so long as both players agree and know its actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility.
@@michalduda9365 Totally. There was a lot of good stuff in the video, but that bit was totally wrong and misleading. If Trevy were right on this one, a Warlord Titan could climb inside the bottom floor of a ruin - can I get a "lol no"?
Yeah Trevy really needs to edit and reupload this part of the video. As you have linked, the wobbly model rule continues past what trevy quoted with that 2nd part " In cases like this, provided it is still physically possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer Position, so long as both players agree and know its actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility.." So as you cannot hold the model in that location clipping things, it cannot be there. The rule is only for stopping your expensive models balancing precariously on top of walls / on floors off of the ground , not to clip through terrain because "if he tucked his wings/arms in he could fit there. TTS definately has a disadvantage over real world and real world people who don't magnetise their large models extremities have a disadvantage over those who do for model placement next to / on / in terrain .
Thanks for all the awesome responses to this video: I wanted to add some addendums and FAQs for ppl looking for more clarification on some of the points brought up in this video. -First off; I made a small mistake in the demonstration while talking about the Aircraft rules: As pointed out by a couple eagle-eyed folks in the comments; the minimum move measurement checks .he distance from the starting position of every point on the base, to every point on the base; so to get the most accurate measurement of minimum movement, measuring from the back of the aircraft's starting position, to the back-most point of its ending position is fine. In the video I accidentally measured from the front of the base to the back, which means that the Archaeopter couldn've moved 2-3" less and still been at a legal position. A couple other things to keep in mind while moving aircraft I folks had questions on: *most* aircraft ignore pivoting for distance measured, so only the distance from the starting and ending locations matter for minimum move, and only the linear distance move across the table matter for maximum move. Okay, now some FAQs (I'll break it down by video chapter): "Models that Overhang Their Bases" This interaction is a function of the base-measurement rule (see the "Measuring Distances" section in the core rules). Since models that base-measure only take their model into account when doing any measurement; if I were to measure to move my model into the corner of a building for example, I would not take into account any components of the model such as outstretched arms or wings when making that movement. Keep in mind that you aren't allowed to cross over other models during movement or when placing your models; so you still can't overlap models or terrain you can't stand on with your base (but you can imagine that if a model with big outstretched wings used the wings to measure its position it would be impossible to engage in melee, since you couldn't walk underneath its wings! xD ). The "Wobbly Model" tip is just a guideline to describe what to do in situations where the model and terrain interact weirdly (I maybe should've left it out of the video since it's just confusing ppl), but most players use wobbly model guidelines to proxy base or mark where their model is actually standing, and then replace them to judge LOS when necessary. Keep in mind that placing your model up against terrain may make them visible through it, if your model had outstretched bits that would protrude through/over the terrain. "When Flying Units Fly" The requirement that models move 'along' the edges of terrain is a function of the "Moving Over Terrain" rules, which state that models may only move vertically while 'climbing' terrain (not the clearest wording, I know, so some communities might play it slightly differently). It is also indicated several places in the rulebook that terrain features constitute areas of the battlefield, and all movement in 40k must be traced in a path along the battlefield, but in fairness this could use a clarification by GW. "Obsec & Disembarking w/ Transports" Ghost Arks with Eternal Conquerors can have Objective Secured. Y'all got me :P The rules that state a model that cannot be placed in coherency while disembarking is destroyed can be found in the "Unit Coherency" section of the Core Rules. "Look Out, Sir" Keep in mind that in some circumstances characters can provide Look Out Sir or screen for models being Looked Out for - if they are 10+ wounds (and as such 10+ wound characters cannot be screened). Thanks for watching and all the awesome feedback. Love you all!
The model has to fit in the space. You can't use wobble model rules to allow a large model to fit in a tiny space. If the vertical space on the first floor is 3" and you have a warlord titan on a base, you can't just place another blank base under the building and say the warlord is under there.
Surprised you're stiill arguing for the "Models Over Hanging Bases" interpretation you showed. Using your interpretation of the movement rules, which mention nothing about if models can phase through walls, couldn't a Knight move onto the ground floor of a ruin and be phasing through several upper floors? There are going to be disadvantages to being big, not being able to fit in small places is one of them. This is usually in exchange for being generally tougher.
I don't think the rules support this interpretation of models overhanging their bases. Here are the full rules that I have for measuring distances: "Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull. You can measure distances whenever you wish. If a rule refers to the closest unit or model, and two or more are equidistant, then the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule." Yes it says you measure distance from the bases, but it says nothing about how much space a model takes up. If your model has the movement to reach a spot and if it can actually be placed there are two different things.
Hello my friend and thank you for the great content. I have question regarding the "who can fight in the fight phase" part: if an enemy unit charges my unit and kills off some models, can i remove my models in such a way that i am only left with models that are no longer in engagement range (and also not in consolidate range), and which therefore wont activate and will also be free from combat for my turn to do their thing?
I find most rules errors come from people thinking something still works like a previous edition. I know it's my own biggest error! Case in point, the mistake I see most is people moving their models the same way you could do in 5ED (and 6th and 7th, which shared many rules)- straight over the top of other models in the same unit. This can only be done if the model has 'fly'. This happens a lot in charges too, with many characters getting moved after a melee unit, and getting into combat at a range they can't actually make, because they aren't going around the models in the other unit correctly. Again, this is a 5ED thing, when characters could attach to a unit and they moved and charged as one. Second most common one is doing a psychic power from a model/unit that could do more than one, doing a power from a different unit, then going back to do the additional power from the first unit. This can't be done. Just like shooting or melee, once you have 'activated' a unit for that phase you need to resolve all of its abilities. Once you move on to another, you can't go back*. *Gentleman's agreement of forgetting something, and your opponent letting you, not withstanding!
Local Houserule hobo here, we usually play look out sir as " the character needs to be within 3" of a unit that can give look out sir and that unit must be closer to the enemy than the character." This means you cant have your character 3" in front of a gunline but your enemy cant fire on it because you have a unit in a building next to the enemy
In addition to what was pointed out about fly. Fly only ignores vertical distance for terrain, the model doesn't act as if the terrain is not there. This means if your model does not have the inf/beast/swarm keyword but does have the fly keyword, like a jet bike, it can't just go strait through ruin walls. Often this doesn't matter, but it can. If you have a 'magic box' style ruin, with a roof and 4 walls, the jetbike can not get inside. Or if it has a roof and 3 walls, the jetbike must move to the opening to get in. If your model is inside a ruin with 3 walls and a roof, lets say you want to move across the table in the opposite side of the opening, an infantry unit could just walk through that wall no problem. The jetbike unit first has to move backwards to the open side, paying the movement, then it can fly on top (not paying because it is vertical), then it can start moving horizontally . If the bike is 3" deep into a ruin, it could have to pay 6" more movement than a infantry squad to get past that wall.
the most commonly messed up rule ive ever seen is the destroyed units rule on page 201 of the main rule book, it states that unless your model or a rule on their data sheet kills an enemy model, it doesn't count as being killed by you, and doesn't score you points. ive seen pretty much every channel get this wrong
That's because generally endgame VPs that are scored by destroying units generally only check *if* the unit is destroyed, regardless of *who* destroys it. Take Thin Their Ranks for example; you add to the tally when an enemy model is destroyed, but doesn't care whether your or your opponent destroyed it. Effects that check whether the model is destroyed by an enemy are most often for special rules or stratagems, not scoring.
Some of these rules are so dumb. Like "look out sir" you have a huge army standing there looking at the enemy and they can't shoot it because somewhere near there is someone hiding.
Amazed pile in and consolidation didn't make the list given how many times players/streamers do it wrong. People often do not move towards the closet enemy to the model but either where they want to go to or towards a unit they are engaged with
Also a fight again strat. If you declare a charge against one unit in front of another, kill all in the way, and consolidate into engagement range of the next unit, you cannot fight again into that unit because you did not declare it in the charge
Pile in and consolidate can get pretty funky. You only have to end your move closer to the closest model (on a model by model basis). You can for instance use it to get out of engagement range of a unit that could even be the closest after charge. Pile in to change which model is closer then consolidate the hell out of there ending your move a tiny bit closer to the closest model (from the second unit)
Good video and I would have played the flyer min move wrong if I had played any flyers in 9th. BUT The model placement/wobbly model syndrome interpretation is wrong, IMO. The rule clearly states that it must be possible to *physically place the model*, but if it is in an unstable position where it might fall and suffer damage, you can mark its true position.
The restriction under Wobbly Model is just to make sure you have space to place the base, since it's illegal to overlap other bases or terrain you can't stand on. Once that prerequisite is met there aren't any other restrictions on placement.
@@TacticalTortoise Not wanting to be confrontational or anything, but can you back that up? 😅 Like, it's a game with physical models, does the rulebook say anywhere that terrain is so abstract, you can phase into it? 🤔
@@THeMightyWarHamster Under the measurement rules; it states that only the base is taken into account when measuring. Given that movement/placement is a function of measurement, there's no way the model would be taken into account when determining where a model can be placed.
@@TacticalTortoise that is quite a leap tho. 😅 By that logic, there is nothing preventing me from placing models sideways or hanging them from windowsills by their base. Also, aircraft for example have to have all their bits inside the DZ, during setup, not just their base, so true volume does matter.
@@THeMightyWarHamster per the core rules you're right; there's literally nothing stopping you from hanging off the sides of terrain. Most communities have houserules (like ITC's old "it sits it fits" for example) to stop that, but it's a very poorly written rule. IMO the solution is to remove multilevel terrain entirely until the rules get cleaned up. It does nothing to improve the gameplay experience and just opens these silly cans of worms. None of the T5S2 S3 maps have multilevel terrain outside the occasional munitorum crate.
Two units fully on the same terrain piece giving light cover (+1 save) for ranged attacks. Both units in combat within engagement range. In the shooting phase would the units get light cover saves when firing pistols at each other?
Feels like the targeting difference between shooting and psychic is to avoid situations where a psyker is moved so they can't see the nearest unit in order to Smite a unit further away.
Just keep in mind that if you can't see a unit *at all*, your Smite may still redirect to a unit farther away. The situation presented in the video only works when you can still see the unit being Smited, just may not have range to the model in LOS.
This is my issue. Even in the current FAQ for Look Out Sir, the large description text says 'visible AND closest UNIT' but on the very same FAQ right under the description text is the quicker reference bullet point using the wording 'visible AND closest TARGET' which units closer but hidden makes them ineligible to a target which then allows you to shoot the character. This conflict of large description text to the bullet under the same Rule raises contradiction. You can check the Rule Glossary for both 'Target' and 'Eligible Target'. This of course puts a need to check Warhammer 40k community at large for general consensus. I personally feel the intent is the 'visible AND the closest TARGET' for the purpose to even include a quick reference bullet is to be clear and concise of meaning behind the large description text.
Don't forget, an enemy unit needs to be within 3" of the character to trigger look out, sir! By logic it should be that the enemy unit should be visible to your units when triggering look out, sir! or at the very least all shots get "redirected" to the enemy unit hiding because they jump out to protect the character
I thought they got rid of that unit that can't be seen preventing you shooting a character rule because it's closer precisely becasue of the crap in 8th edition where you would do that.
21:20 Not sure about 8. in order to make a successful charge for 2 units, you would be at engagement range of both. P229 of the WH rulebook does state, "A model that is already touching an enemy model cannot move, but counts as having piled in". It really depends if they count being in engagement range as touching. If not then possibly you could move 3" towards the nearest model, but it starts getting a bit unclear and messy. Did they confirm this in FAQ?
It's all about positioning, if your 0.99 inches from the orks, but 0.95 from the truck, as long as you end your pile in and consolidation closer to the truck (I.e 0.949 reoccurring) you can move as far away from the orks as your movement allows
Dense Terrain is a good one for this. If your unit is shooting out of Dense terrain but shooting through ANY other piece of terrain, they are still affected by the -1 to hit from the dense.
While RAW you're absolutely correct that's how it works; there's a Designer note that indicates it's not meant to work this way, so I know a lot of tournaments specifically rule it otherwise. Why GW couldn't just fix the rule instead of leaving it in a designer note I'll never know.
What about measuring to a model that doesn't have a base or a measure from hull rule. Like a Triarch Stalker. What measuring rule would be used in a tournament setting?
Interesting point about wobbly model for any placement. This means people aren’t realising genestealers are actually eligible for more attacks than it seems for the real life tabletop games, because genestealers are difficult to physically fit all of them within 0.5” of 0.5” in CC given the models’ arms get in the way.
he missed the 2nd part of the wobbly model rule "In cases like this, provided it is still physically possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer Position, so long as both players agree and know its actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility." it isn't physically possible to place the genestealer there because of another gene-stealers arms you cannot put a spare base there instead.
During the second game I have ever played I ran into the look out sir issue where the character was the closest visible yet not closest unit. When asking why such a stupid situation was allowed on Reddit they said that at least it prevents rhino snipping. I guess that makes sense.
@@TacticalTortoise Just to get things right. Doesn't that mean a non (Infantry, Beast, Swarm) model would have to move over the ground, up the wall, back the ceiling, over the next floor, up the wall... to cross a ruin? The model in the video moves through the ceilings, wich is not possible for nonIBS.
I find that a lot of players don't know how to even setup the battlefield. For example, when selecting a mission and it comes up as say Strike Force - Sweep and Clear or Priority Target players will choose a table corner rather than a deployment zone as shown in the example. Some players see the example map setup as a fixed deployment zone setup when it comes to these table corner style of battlefields and others see them as an example of how it should be setup and choose any corner and make the opponent deploy opposite. It happens in tournaments as well as regular "friendly" games. So, perhaps you can make a video on deployments in 9th edition as it doesn't seem have a lot of helpful videos on the topic.
So we now have goonhammer LITERALLY coming out and contradicting what you say at 3:50, they claim the model cannot go through terrain even if base fits, so the example with the hive tyrant., according to goonhammer, is wrong. which one of you is right?
I mean; my opinion on which side is right is probably pretty biased ngl :P But I also literally have as much authority as Goonhammer AND a rule that says only model's bases count for positioning so...
So if you have a flying model that is moving in the movement phase that started its move on top of a terrain feature, can it drop down to ground level without having to measure the distance? You didn't really touch on this in the explanation, but it came up in a game a while back. For some reason we thought that you had to account for the vertical distance on a model that had fly if it started the move on a terrain feature.
What can you choose to fight if you are eligible to fight? Watching your charge one, pile in on the other I thought the charging unit is only able to fight whomever they charged.
Hey im fairly new to the hobby , i still dont understand some basic things . A ) can a unit pile and consolidate every time ? Or can it only consolidate after it has destroyed an opponent in melee and then has 3 inched to go to the closest enemy unit . Or could it pile and consolidate each new melee phase so it can reposition for getting more models in melee able to hit . B) and are they allowed to do that even if it is not my turn and i am hitting back ..or is it only in my own melee phase ? C) And if its possible every meleephase.... does it work while im still being in melee with an enemy unit ? Lets Say i potentialy consolidate into a closeby 2 inch away standing second enemy while im already in melee . Can i bind 2 units so to say knowing that they probably could hit me but probably denyin a charge or shooting in their next turn ?
If a unit is eligible to fight (it charged that turn or it has an enemy unit within Engagement range) then it can Pile In, Fight and then Consolidate. You don't need to wipe a unit to Consolidate. You can pile in and/or consolidate into more units units. They will likely get to fight if you do so. If the unit you are using Charged this turn it can only make attacks are units it declared as a target of it's charge that turn. When charging in 9th you need to reach and move within engagement range of every unit you targeted or the charge fails.
I think so because they still have the keyword, and I think the terrain piece references the keywords. They just don't get to ignore the footprint of terrain.
Disciplined shooters combined with first rank fire second rank fire. Is it 36 lasgun shots at 18 inches?? Also, with laurels of command, can you issue that order to a unit you already issued an order to? Sorry for bad english
@@constantinekorkousky3363 Yes, Disciplined Shooters double their rapidfire attacks at 18" No, Laurels cannot double-order a unit, this is covered in the AM FAQ.
My understanding of the Rules as written for overwatch is that you can no longer avoid being overwatched by charging from out of line of sight. Is that correct?
Not really; line of sight was never a prerequisite for Overwatch, but it is a requirement for being targeted by the resulting ranged attack. So unless the unit you're charging has an indirect fire weapon they can't shoot you at all if they can't see you.
Can you explain fight first/Last/not be elidgable to be chosen to fight/charged+fight last/etc...it really grind my gears. I think there was a faq for all "fight last". Any rules where a model can fight or shoot when its killed. Doesnt the player have to: choose first which model to allocate wounds->roll save->if its killed, roll 4+ (or whatever)-> shoots/fights. And not: roll saves for whole squad->roll 4+ for number of killed models-> chose which model fights/shoots ?!?!?!
Bases are not just for range, they are also their "footprint" in the game. So you can't place one base over another base of a model. This is something i see alot of, when players try to fit a unit in behind LOS blocking terrain, that the bases end up overlapping, and overlapping is not alowed.
@@TacticalTortoise forgot to praise the video, I liked it. important now that we are not given the opportunity to play as much, as you yourself mentioned, GW still has problems formulating sensible rules. I think they should stick to "visible" units on many of the rules, to minimize misunderstandings, but that will probably be fixed in the 10th ed. ;)
So if two of my units charge in and the first unit kills the enemy then my second unit can still move 3" towards the nearest model and maybe get into engagement range but not attack?
Nice vid. Question. Is it possible to do a heroic intervention on a unit that failed a charge? Like if you are on the corner of a friendly unit, the attacker rolls really low, can you move your character 3 inches of it ends in range?
Distance verses displacement. Really wish the rules used those two terms, would help provide a lot more clarity. 10" then 90 degree, then 10" = 20" distance movement BUT is only 10" displacement
This was a great video! Thank you! On the topic of actions, what about things like transports and disembarking? Say I have a transport who is performing an action, are they allowed to start the action and disembark, or will that break the action? Thanks again! I liked and subscribed thanks to this video :)
Question- at 20.45 when the vanguard vet consolidates into the truck, if the boyz are still within 3 of the vet are they still eligible to pile in and fight?
True most common rule everybody gets wrong: Ancients. Around 95% of the playerbase, especially those run this model, think that he is there simply to look cool and he has no abilities. He apparently gives a fight on death and sometimes other auras, but you'll never see it done!
Disembarking from a destroyed transport was just a topic in my local league. Can you please find the rule that states you can disembark by model in a unit and not by unit? Rules as written you can place a unit "not within Engagement Range of any enemy models" when disembarking. I haven't come across rules that state you can place by model when disembarking. I'm also unaware of any rules that allow you to destroy models in a unit that cannot be set up outside of Engagement Range in order to keep the remaining models of said unit. Thanks!
Not really sure what "disembark by model" rule you're referring to, but the rule that destroys models that can't be set up is in the Coherency section.
@@TacticalTortoise My point is that there is no rule that allows you to set up the unit within engagement. The unit must be outside of engagement range, and wholly within 3” (unless you use the strat for 6”). If your unit can not meet these parameters, rules as written, they’re not allowed to disembark a destroyed transport. You’d need to use the strat or they’re not able to disembark. In 8th Ed, there was a line that specifically allowed you to do this by model, and remove models that couldn’t fit. That line no longer exists.
That situation just falls under the Unit Coherency clause; "Sometimes there will be insufficient room to set up all the models from a unit, or it will not be possible to set up all the models so that they are in unit coherency. When this is the case, any models that cannot be set up are considered to have been destroyed."
@@TacticalTortoise How can you set up a unit that isn’t legally allowed to be placed? Your unit doesn’t meet the requirements to be placed in the first place. Being able to remove models so that the unit meets said requirements isn’t anywhere in the rule book, and applying unit coherency to get around the conditions for disembarking doesn’t sound legal. The conditions for disembark aren’t by model, the section refers to the entire unit needing to be within 3” of the transport and out of engagement range.
Facing an imperial knight bro, with five edition vehicle rule... Remember? When they did not have any hp? He died turn two when my boss used his claw...
should mention the commonly misplaced Flail of corruption or extremis trigger word, d3 hit rolls in not d3 a Extra attacks it pretty well guarantees the attacks you do have will hit.
I'm noticing a lot of confusion between fight first, not being eligible to fight until all others have done so, and what happens when these effects stacks (e.g. veil of time'd blood angels warlord with speed of the primarch charging and stuff like judiciars/whirlwinds/psychomancers etc). Some people think judiciars trump all other effects but other fight last effects like whirlwinds and psychomancers dont... despite they all use the same eligibility wording :/
Judiciar says "That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so." Whirlwind Suppression Fire says "...cannot be selected to fight until all eligible units from your army have done so." They don't use the same eligibility wording, the whirlwind strat doesn't make a unit "not eligible". Can you use the Counter Offensive stratagem to fight with a unit that is not in combat? No. Why not? Because that unit is "not eligible" to fight. A Judiciar makes a unit "not eligible". The charging units fight first rule says "This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought." As this rule doesn't make enemy units "not eligible" either you can use Counter Offensive to interupt after a charging unit, and you can use it to make a unit affected by similar "cannot be selected until" rules, but Counter Offensive requires an eligible unit as a target for the strat.
@@ShasLaMontyr cheers for that. Do thimgs change with the whirlwing if fight first effects stack? (E.g. Charging keeper of secrets or veil of timed speed of the primarch BA warlord) do they all cancel each other to create a situation where all rules are ignored, or does one instance of fight 1st/last cancel each other out and any stacked instances then apply?
No worries,@@xandermacleod that question though... I don't know. The Fight Last Rare rule says that if a unit is affected by Fight last (like Suppression) and Fight first then it fights as if affected by neither. However charging meets the definition of a Fight First ability, and it doesn't clarify if a unit has Charged and Fights First if a Fight Last effect cancels one or both of it's Fight First effects. As the rule is singular though, I tend to play that it only cancels out one of them.
@@ShasLaMontyr A fight last does only cancel one of the 2 instances of a fight 1st. In regards to the "ineligible" new 9th wording , it is still argued in many big w40k circles if that is just a new wording that means the same as a fight last or not , Need to rule that one yourselves pre game / pre tournaments with opponents / T.O. 's
@@mariusevander2214 can you point me to where it says it cancels just the one? As the rare rule says "If a unit is under the affects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight in the fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it". That is ambiguous. It also doesn't specify which of the rules they might get to keep. And yeah I know the "not eligible" think is argued about. I'm just not sure why it is, if it was the "new wording" for such abilities it makes no sense that the Silent King didn't get it as an entirely new character with new abilities or that the SM codex has both. "Not eligible" for Judiciar and "cannot be selected" for the Whirlwind Strat. It seems very specifically different and far less ambiguous that plenty of other rules in the game are.
Just to be clear and make sure am understanding the distinction between chargers and interveners. With regardless to Charges made in the fight phase. If two of my units declare a charge on the same unit of boyz, and the first unit manages to wipe out all the squads. When my second unit activates does it now get to pile in & consolidate? Or just Consolidate?
It gets to both Pile In & Consolidate, but can only attack if it has legal targets (i.e. units it charged) within 1" after it piles in. So if its charge targets are all already dead it's basically just free movement (keep in mind they still have to go towards the closest enemy etc.).
@@TacticalTortoise understood! Thanks a ton, am always getting challenged one whether I could pile in. This really clears up a lot and you have given me so much more value out of my Heroic interventions as well! Thank you so much for these kinds of vids.
I have never seen the rule you go over that states to go up a level in a building that you have to first touch a wall played that way before in a tourney or a casual game. Where are you getting that interpretation from so I can read it over. I'm not doubting you, just have never seen it played that way.
@@TacticalTortoise Can you please point out where does it say that you must touch the wall: "MOVING OVER TERRAIN When a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved over a terrain feature but not through it (so models can’t move through a wall, but can climb up or over it). ‘A model can be moved over terrain features that are 1" or less in height as if they were not there - any vertical distance up and/or down that they would have to make to traverse such terrain features is ignored, A model can be moved vertically in order to climb up, down and over any terrain features that are higher than this, counting the vertical distance up and/or down as part of its move. Models cannot finish any kind of move midclimb - if it is not possible to end the move as a result, that move cannot be made."
concerning the tule about having to disembark all of your units when a vehicle is destroyed... when do you roll for the explosion? (assuming the vehicle has one.) Would it be disembark, roll for dead units and then the explosion?
You're after the Destroyed Transports rule on page 211. You resolve the explosion before placing any models from the embarked units. So the embarked units aren't hit by the explosion, they just have to deal with losing a model for each roll of a 1.
You have to place the units before removing the transport that exploded or rolling the casualties though, to see if any die from not being able to fit anywhere when disembarking before casualties rolls removes anymore.
@tacticalTortoise or anyone else in chat: Question regarding point #5 When placing models after a destroyed transport. Don’t the models all need to be placed in unit coherency with each other or be destroyed. As far as i know at no time may models not be in unit coherency. Thanks in advance.
LOS is drawn to any point on the model including the base. If they can see a wing but not the base, valid target. If they can see the base but not a wing, valid target. If they can't see anything, invalid target. Edit: Unless by LOS you mean Look Out Sir instead of Line of Sight, in which case the 3" measurement to the character is base to base.
For the look yout sir. Lets say your librarian is in front of a 5 man squad that provides look out sir and 12 inches from the orcs, he could be shot. But if there is a 2 man squad that does not give look out sir on the other side of the orcs 10 inches away they would still be forced to shoot the 2 man squad before being able to shoot the librarian?
Annoyingly, that 2-man squad you mention, which qualify as the closer unit/models, would indeed cause you to NOT be able to shoot at the Librarian. Is it stupid? I think so - but rules as written say so. GW need to clarify this even further, mostly due to the fact it doesn't sit right as you can see in all the other comments referring to this so far
Models have to "climb" terrain in order to move vertically along it (in the Moving Over Terrain rules). It's also indicated several places that terrain features are components of the battlefield, and all movement takes place across battlefield surfaces.
@@TacticalTortoise I am not sure, but I think it's not how it works, that is why I asked if you could quote a page for we can solve this together. Rulebook p.263 says : Scaleable so Ruins "...models can move through the floors, ceilings, and gantries of this terrian without impediment." Same words for Breachable.
Great vid bro very helpful , quick one for the commenters, if I charge a unit and then consolidate into another that I have not declared a charge on , does that unit get to fight me before the end of the phase? I’m certain it’s a no but other people I’ve seen playing online seem to think they can ??
Yes they can fight you. The conditions for being able to fight are: 1. Made a charge move 2. Is in engagement range of an enemy model If you consolidate into another unit you are full filling clause 2 so they can fight into you.
Thank you guys ,funny how 1 person being so sure can help to set incorrect things in stone in your mind. This started when a guy in my local group began to use this as a wrap and trap tactic, he was a bit of a toxic dude and kinda turned my friend group away from the club, now getting back into things with the lockdowns and vids and replies like this are really helping me get a better sense of the rules thanks so much guys!
And what about for example models with keywords that do not let them go through terrain. Like deamon prince or custo jetbikes in charge. They cannot move through ruin in charge ?
That is the point. You start within engagement range of both units, but slightly closer to one than another. Then, after fighting, you use your consolidate move to move closer to the nearest enemy unit. You do not have to move closer in a straight line, just closer. In the example shown, the vanguard vet starts closer to the truck (by a fraction of an inch). After it fights, it then consolidates, and uses its consolidation to move the full three inches, away from the boyz but ending its move even closer to the truck. This can get really sneaky - you can prevent heroic interventions that way. A unit can only heroically intervene if there are no units within engagement range in the charge phase. So if you charge the character and another unit, you can end in engagement range of both. The character therefore can't intervene. You fight first, and use your consolidation as shown above to move out of engagement range of the character. As there are no enemies left within engagement range, that character cannot be activated, and has already missed the chance to heroically intervene. If the heroic intervention denying nonsense above is not sufficiently rage inducing, if you have friends you absolutely do not want anymore, if you are a masochist who gets kicks from being punched in the face . . . then play Harlequins. Perform the trick above, but then use the Harlequin fight twice stratagem. This allows a second pile-in move before fighting again, potentially allowing you to damage a target while denying a heroic intervention, then pile squad members back into the character (each model has to meet the 'moving closer' clause when consolidating out of engagement range, so this requires finesse), fight again and kill it.
Was there a FAQ that said the models disembarking are destroyed if not wholly within 3"? Nowhere in the rule book does it say that for vehicles being destroyed.
It's not under the "Transport" section, because it's not related to "Transport" per se. It's under the "Unit Coherency" rules, at the start of the rulebook. Here's the excerpt : "Sometimes there will be insufficient room to set up all the models from a unit, or it will not be possible to set up all the models so that they are in unit coherency. When this is the case, any models that cannot be set up are considered to have been destroyed."
Question, at 20:06, when the librarian heroically intervenes, if the tactical marines hadn't killed the boys, would the librarian have been able to fight, since he would have been engaged? Otherwise, saying that "even though it feels like a charge, he still can't activate" seems very misleading, when it would be better to say, the reason he can't fight is because he is no longer engaged. Can't you just say, he can't activate because the boys are all dead?
If, after the tactical marines fight, there are still Orks engaging the Librarian, the Librarian could fight. The point is just that HI doesn't *automatically* allow you to activate; you still need to be engaged.
Got a question from a game last weekend. Some blast weapons have multiple D3 or D6 dice rolls, eg 2D6. If shooting into a large unit (20 ork boys) would you get a minimum of 6 or 12 shots?
When shooting at a unit of size 11+ you get the weapons maximum number of shots. So for a 2d6 shot blast weapon you would get 12. However when shooting at a unit of size 6-10 you get minimum 3 shots, regardless of how many dice are rolled to generate the number of shots. So a 3d6 shot blast weapon firing at a 10 man unit would not get any benefit from this rule, as it always rolls a minimum of 3.
Just to clarify, look out sir has a few more restrictions than suggested in the video right? Such as the 'defending' unit needing 3 or more models etc. That isn't particularly important to the point in the video, but I'd like to check I'm playing it right!
Unless there is another model you are in melee with that is closer than the other; then you can potentially leave the engagement range of the farther unit (as shown in the demo). :)
If the tournament table deepstrike abuse was indeed the reason for the rules change, the change itself was pretty stupid. GW could have ruled that the 9 inches are to be measured in the same way as any other flyer movement (.e. horizontally only) and they would've been good and the rules wouldn't have had another annoying special case to take care of.
Bit of confusion about RAW LoS here. If my opponent has a librarian, who is standing behind a rock that comes up to his waste, can I shoot him, even though technically his base is hidden? If the height of the terrain matters, what if I have a tall character on a hero rock trying to hide behind a rock with a height of 1.5", or 2.1"? If the only thing that matters is the base, how does this interact with the barricades or hills keywords for terrain? (Assume the characters mentioned are not Looked Out for) Atm, my local players just agree based on what is reasonable (very much a RAI community, unless we agree the game will be very competitive beforehand).
For the charge example you did with the vanguard vet. Is it not against the rules to pile in or consolidate any model that is already in base to base contact? Edit: clarification on what I mean. You can't move a model in one of those types of move unless they are not in base to base contact already (such as an model in a second rank)
@@TacticalTortoise thought that was the case, but wasn’t sure. Didn’t even realise the deal with ‘Look Out Sir!’ and that random out of sight Assault Marine meaning the Librarian was untargettable, feels a bit janky.
@@TacticalTortoise while we’re discussing your LOS clarifications, you missed a small yet important fact. The Look Out Sir rule cannot be used by a unit with less than 3 models, unless it is a monster or vehicle. See P. 219 of the Core Rules. This makes your example with the one guy creating Look Out Sir incorrect. Otherwise it checks out!
Yeah that rule is rather BS, I play guard and say I have a commissar near the front lines but all my other models are down in trenches or buildings out of line of sight, you wouldn't be able to shoot any of my models because they can only see the commissar but can't target him because there's a squad of guys hidden just below him in a trench
@@dragonknightadam The rule has some weird interactions, but it is set up like that for a very important reason. It used to be at the beginning of 8th that you could target characters that were the closest visible target, regardless of targets that were out of los. However, players quickly realized that things like rhinos can block line of sight. So, you position your rhino next to your eradicators so that they cant see the other unit, and can only see the character, and suddenly you could shoot the character! This kind of los sniping is what made the rule change to where it is now. It can be a little finicky at times, but is set up that way for a really good reason.
If you're closer to model A than model B, you can potentially pile away from model B's engagement range. It's all explained in more detail here: ua-cam.com/video/RVhnFIpmry0/v-deo.html
I've had disagreements with players when it comes to measuring for aircraft. The Stormfang Gunship doesn't have the measure to the hull ability. So do you mesure attacks coming in to the base or hull of the aircraft
Is there anything that stops a player from removing casualties from the middle of a unit and then end up having two groups of units in coherency that are holding two different objectives across the gaming table?
If I charge into a single model in a unit of 10, each as far apart as possible (ike a screen/ striaght line) and deal 10 wounds would each space marine take a wound or would all 10 wounds only go on models within 3inches of the one I charged?
The player that owns the 10 model unit can allocate wounds to any model in that unit they like. Regardless of how far away it is from the unit dealing the damage. Although if a model has already taken a wound, it must be finished off before the next model can start taking damage. So you cannot end up in a situation where ten 2W marines have all taken 1 damage.
Saves (and therefore wounds) are assigned by the unit's controlling player to any model in the unit they want, but once a model is wounded, further wounds have to be assigned to that model until it's dead. Keep in mind also that once a model in a unit takes a save it has to continue have saves assigned to it until the end of the phase or it's dead, even if it makes all of them.
@@ArsonFire3 ahhh okay, because one of the guys I play with says it doesnt work like that, when my lord discordant charged into his line of 20 necrons I was only allowed to kill 4 which is very bad compared to what lord discordant is capable of lmao...and yes those 4 did stand back up
Great video. Can you produce a video on how to play every other rule as well please? 🤣
xD
We'll get there eventually I'm sure :P
@@TacticalTortoise not with GW rules committees on the job.
3:50 No way, dude!
"Sometimes you may find that a particular terrain feature makes it hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this, provided it is still physically possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer. Position, so long as both players agree and know its actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility." GT2020 p. 199
Guess you could say that it is indeed "misplayed relatively commonly" when your own video does misplay the rule. People do make mistakes though, it's no biggy. I'm not even sure the majority of the community plays it that way, not that I've seen since they debunked the whole thing in an FAQ back in 8th Edition.
But yeah, the use of the Wobbly Model hint (Which is not even a rule mind you) to get a "free placement card" of model is quite a stretch, to say the least.
To be clear here, people are disagreeing with the video saying that you can place models in places that they don’t physically fit if the base fits. The above quote from the rule book supports the argument that you have to be able to physically place the model. You can’t stick wings through walls unless they can actually fit out a window.
Glad someone else pointed this out, was about to do the same! Models are measured from the base but still have physical size. I suspect its poor practice leaking over from TTS.
Goonhammer came out contradicting this, so the video may be wrong, waiting for update.
I had a buddy actually snap his Hive tyrants wings off so he could fit its base inside terrain.
8:25 You don't need a wall to move vertically within a ruin, you can move vertically at any time but you need to have the Infantry, Beast or Swarm keywords and the terrain requires the Scaleable trait to be able to move through Floors/Ceilings.
A model can only be moved vertically while moving over terrain, so you can't just levitate yourself to the second floors of buildings without being in contact with the building.
@@TacticalTortoise if you are within a ruin, you are over terrain.
"A model can be moved vertically
in order to climb up, down and over any terrain features that are higher than this, counting the vertical distance up and/or down as part of its move."
No part of that says you need a wall to climb up, it just says Models can be moved vertically. Terrain is abstract in 40k, walls don't need holes in them for Breachable to work, you don't need Stairs, Walls or Ladders to make use of Scaleable.
@@ShasLaMontyr Yeah; it's definitely a poorly worded rule, but I think the operative phrase is "move vertically in order to climb terrain features". The specification that models "climb" implies that they're meant to actually scale the surface of the terrain. There's definitely some wiggle room for interpretation tho.
@@TacticalTortoise I really think your version is taking terrain far too literally. This also makes some of the gantry industrial stuff pretty difficult to use, as the models would all need to move to a pillar or ladder, move up and have movement left to get out of the way of subsequent models. I tend to just view the Scalable trait as being abstraction for either piles of rubble that can be climbed between floors that are not necessarily modelled, or that my units are using climbing gear to left themselves up through damage and ruined flooring.
The only sort of terrain which is part of the battlefield is hills:
"Hills are always considered to be part of the battlefield itself rather than a terrain feature"
Point of clarity for the Flyer Minimum Move - when determining if the flyer has moved it's minimum distance from the starting point, you measure to the same spot on the base both times. The back of the base does not have to be the minimum distance from where the front of the base was.
Yeah, that's a great call - the rule is worded awkwardly but I definitely made a whoopsie in the demo measuring front to back. :)
5:15 The Wobbly model rules say if it's "hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall". It doesn't provide permission for placing models in places they are unable to fit in entirely, the physical size of a model does limit where it can go.
No; the restriction for placement space is just for the base, since only the base is used is used for measurement and the rest of the model is ignored, but you still need a space to fit the base without overlapping other models or terrain etc.
@@TacticalTortoise that is not said at all in the rules. Wobbly model says "Sometimes you may find that a particular terrain feature makes
it hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken"
A model being hard to place somewhere, and impossible to place somewhere because it doesn't fit, are two very different things. Wobbly model as a "Hint/Tip" is used when balancing a model somewhere might risk it being damaged, it still needs to physically be able to go where it is being said to be, and the latter bit of the rule requires you to be able to hold the model in the actual location for checking LoS, which is impossible if the model doesn't fit in that location. "If, later on, an
enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility."
The physical model 100% comes Into account where you can place it.
Flyers are measured the same as everything else, from the same point.
That mention about the action not failing because you got charged and had a fight phase 👌🏻 on point and I feel so validated lol, I noticed the way this was worded on my first read through of the 9th rulebook yet I still see bat rep UA-cam channels and hear of people playing this wrong! I try to inform people of the correct way and people just don’t want to hear it, even refusing to read the rule when you present it to them to clarify, simply because it’s misplayed so often that it’s become like the Mandela effect and that’s not counting the times you get called “rules lawyer” or other derogatory names for trying to correct this one thing...
Using TTS as a visual aid is an amazing tool and you do it much better than my poor attempt at it.
I'm going to have to step my game up.
This was great! An idea for a video is "how to play X army", for instance, necrons, how to you choose a dynasty and how does it affect the game, command protocols, what are they are what do they do. Common cmd.phase options, etc etc. Like a how to play an army for dummies video. could include list building for beginners
This was sooo good and very clear with TTS thank you very much. We need more of these that clear up rules!
Cheers!
Is there any FAQ for Wobbly Models Syndrome or do i Get it Wrong?
What you did with this Hive Tyrant is wrong i guess, as to use Wobbly Models Syndrome model still needs to fit there Physicaly (core rules pg5 Hints and Tips - Wobbly Models
). What you did is definitely not fiting there physically.
"Sometimes you may find that a particular terrain feature makes
it hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you
delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall as
soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model
damaged or even broken. In cases like this, provided it is still
PHYSICALLY possible to place the model in the desired location, you
may find it helps to leave a model in a safer position, so long as
both players agree and know its ‘actual’ location. If, later on, an
enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back
in place so they can check visibility.)"
The requirement for physical space is just to ensure that your base can be placed where the model is setting up; since it's illegal to overlap other bases or terrain you can't stand on with your base. Once your base can be placed there are no other requirements.
@@TacticalTortoise There is. Model have to be able to fit there Phisically. It is nowhere written, that since you measure to/from base the Physical Form of the model does not metter. The less "virtual agreements" in this game, the better.
" provided it is still
PHYSICALLY possible to place the MODEL in the desired location,".
Think it over ;) As long as I play I never saw something like you showed on the video. Wobbly model is for situation, when you put a model f.e. on a Steep Hill, where it can be PHISICALLY placed but there is a danger that it knock over and fall.
@@TacticalTortoise You'd seriously let me put something like a Ta'unar inside a ruin on the ground floor, as long as I brought a spare base to prove that there's room for that? Crazy talk. Nothing in the rules implies you can put a model somewhere it doesn't physically fit. The fact you use exclusively the base to MEASURE your movement distance doesn't mean the rest of the model is irrelevant to the movement.
"Moving Over Terrain" section: "When a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved over a terrain feature but not through it (so models can’t move through a wall, but can climb up or over it)." That means the whole model, not just the base.
great video! I do wish you had covered how terrain works a little though - a lot of people seem to think you can magically see through the area terrain you are in even if it actually blocks LOS, or that you can touch the outside wall of a ruin to be within it (Common house rule which is fine, but people think it is RAW/I)
Great suggestion! Maybe a good include for part 2? :)
@@TacticalTortoise You know I'd be pumped for a part two either way
Great video!
Another rule I see people getting wrong pretty often is Objective Secured.
A lot of people think that the player with more ObSec models on an objective control the objective. However, if 2 players both have any number of ObSec models on an objective, then the player with more models (ObSec or otherwise) controls the objective.
In short: 1 ObSec + 3 non-ObSec > 3 ObSec
Spoiler alert; I talk about exactly this in part 2 xD
Can someone please confirm the Look Out Sir points he made? Those seem WAY different than my understanding. In some of those examples, despite the Character being in the open, and visible, because a vanguard vet is hiding 6-7 inches away behind a los blocking terrain (single Model)... I somehow cannot shoot the character? Despite having a clear, as the crow flys, firing lane? I see this being abusable with 1 model hiding in a weird spots applying protecting (closest model rules) without having a firm grounding in Rules as Intended.. I am newish to the game but that seems broken or very odd to play with.
Yea thats deff one im questioning. If hes right then it’s something that was overlooked. Deff not allowing that in my games lol
@@devonwrayn Yah, I don't play super competitive so I would 100% "house rule" that as it should not behave like that.
If the character is within 3" of a friendly unit and there is a unit nearer to the shooter then the character cannot be targeted. So yes; a sneaky well hidden scarab swarm will stop you shooting a character (if the character is within 3" of a friendly unit)
@@sussexminis3825 So def rules as written but if that swarm is not even viewable (or a valid shooting target at all) by the shooting unit... that's IMO is not rules as intended.
@@dmck1436 it is as intended. Look out sir has been faq’d at least once and they could have easily added a ‘visible’ in there alter it but they haven’t. GW definitely want it played how it’s written.
More videos on the more obscure rules please.
I need to read this section covered at 3:48 about only needing the models base not the model in the correct location , that makes a huge difference , in 2 recent games I had Dimachaeron charges go from 3" and 6" to 11" and 14" because of ruin levels sticking out .
For me, this is explained Wrong.
Wobbly model syndrom can only be used if model PHYSICALY Fits in the spot you Want to place it. In shown Case this HT totally does not fit there PHYSICALY...
Sometimes you may find that a
particular terrain feature makes it
hard for you to place a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance a model in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken.
In cases like this, provided it is still
physically possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer Position, so long as both players agree and know its actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility.
@@michalduda9365 Totally. There was a lot of good stuff in the video, but that bit was totally wrong and misleading. If Trevy were right on this one, a Warlord Titan could climb inside the bottom floor of a ruin - can I get a "lol no"?
Yeah Trevy really needs to edit and reupload this part of the video. As you have linked, the wobbly model rule continues past what trevy quoted with that 2nd part
" In cases like this, provided it is still physically possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer Position, so long as both players agree and know its actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility.."
So as you cannot hold the model in that location clipping things, it cannot be there. The rule is only for stopping your expensive models balancing precariously on top of walls / on floors off of the ground , not to clip through terrain because "if he tucked his wings/arms in he could fit there. TTS definately has a disadvantage over real world and real world people who don't magnetise their large models extremities have a disadvantage over those who do for model placement next to / on / in terrain .
I don't think I've actually LEARNED anything from watching these videos, but it definitely reaffirmed how I've been playing these rules
Thanks for all the awesome responses to this video: I wanted to add some addendums and FAQs for ppl looking for more clarification on some of the points brought up in this video.
-First off; I made a small mistake in the demonstration while talking about the Aircraft rules:
As pointed out by a couple eagle-eyed folks in the comments; the minimum move measurement checks .he distance from the starting position of every point on the base, to every point on the base; so to get the most accurate measurement of minimum movement, measuring from the back of the aircraft's starting position, to the back-most point of its ending position is fine. In the video I accidentally measured from the front of the base to the back, which means that the Archaeopter couldn've moved 2-3" less and still been at a legal position.
A couple other things to keep in mind while moving aircraft I folks had questions on: *most* aircraft ignore pivoting for distance measured, so only the distance from the starting and ending locations matter for minimum move, and only the linear distance move across the table matter for maximum move.
Okay, now some FAQs (I'll break it down by video chapter):
"Models that Overhang Their Bases"
This interaction is a function of the base-measurement rule (see the "Measuring Distances" section in the core rules). Since models that base-measure only take their model into account when doing any measurement; if I were to measure to move my model into the corner of a building for example, I would not take into account any components of the model such as outstretched arms or wings when making that movement.
Keep in mind that you aren't allowed to cross over other models during movement or when placing your models; so you still can't overlap models or terrain you can't stand on with your base (but you can imagine that if a model with big outstretched wings used the wings to measure its position it would be impossible to engage in melee, since you couldn't walk underneath its wings! xD ).
The "Wobbly Model" tip is just a guideline to describe what to do in situations where the model and terrain interact weirdly (I maybe should've left it out of the video since it's just confusing ppl), but most players use wobbly model guidelines to proxy base or mark where their model is actually standing, and then replace them to judge LOS when necessary. Keep in mind that placing your model up against terrain may make them visible through it, if your model had outstretched bits that would protrude through/over the terrain.
"When Flying Units Fly"
The requirement that models move 'along' the edges of terrain is a function of the "Moving Over Terrain" rules, which state that models may only move vertically while 'climbing' terrain (not the clearest wording, I know, so some communities might play it slightly differently).
It is also indicated several places in the rulebook that terrain features constitute areas of the battlefield, and all movement in 40k must be traced in a path along the battlefield, but in fairness this could use a clarification by GW.
"Obsec & Disembarking w/ Transports"
Ghost Arks with Eternal Conquerors can have Objective Secured. Y'all got me :P
The rules that state a model that cannot be placed in coherency while disembarking is destroyed can be found in the "Unit Coherency" section of the Core Rules.
"Look Out, Sir"
Keep in mind that in some circumstances characters can provide Look Out Sir or screen for models being Looked Out for - if they are 10+ wounds (and as such 10+ wound characters cannot be screened).
Thanks for watching and all the awesome feedback. Love you all!
The model has to fit in the space.
You can't use wobble model rules to allow a large model to fit in a tiny space.
If the vertical space on the first floor is 3" and you have a warlord titan on a base, you can't just place another blank base under the building and say the warlord is under there.
Surprised you're stiill arguing for the "Models Over Hanging Bases" interpretation you showed. Using your interpretation of the movement rules, which mention nothing about if models can phase through walls, couldn't a Knight move onto the ground floor of a ruin and be phasing through several upper floors? There are going to be disadvantages to being big, not being able to fit in small places is one of them. This is usually in exchange for being generally tougher.
I don't think the rules support this interpretation of models overhanging their bases. Here are the full rules that I have for measuring distances:
"Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull. You can measure distances whenever you wish.
If a rule refers to the closest unit or model, and two or more are equidistant, then the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule."
Yes it says you measure distance from the bases, but it says nothing about how much space a model takes up. If your model has the movement to reach a spot and if it can actually be placed there are two different things.
Hello my friend and thank you for the great content. I have question regarding the "who can fight in the fight phase" part: if an enemy unit charges my unit and kills off some models, can i remove my models in such a way that i am only left with models that are no longer in engagement range (and also not in consolidate range), and which therefore wont activate and will also be free from combat for my turn to do their thing?
I find most rules errors come from people thinking something still works like a previous edition. I know it's my own biggest error!
Case in point, the mistake I see most is people moving their models the same way you could do in 5ED (and 6th and 7th, which shared many rules)- straight over the top of other models in the same unit.
This can only be done if the model has 'fly'.
This happens a lot in charges too, with many characters getting moved after a melee unit, and getting into combat at a range they can't actually make, because they aren't going around the models in the other unit correctly.
Again, this is a 5ED thing, when characters could attach to a unit and they moved and charged as one.
Second most common one is doing a psychic power from a model/unit that could do more than one, doing a power from a different unit, then going back to do the additional power from the first unit.
This can't be done.
Just like shooting or melee, once you have 'activated' a unit for that phase you need to resolve all of its abilities. Once you move on to another, you can't go back*.
*Gentleman's agreement of forgetting something, and your opponent letting you, not withstanding!
Local Houserule hobo here, we usually play look out sir as " the character needs to be within 3" of a unit that can give look out sir and that unit must be closer to the enemy than the character." This means you cant have your character 3" in front of a gunline but your enemy cant fire on it because you have a unit in a building next to the enemy
In addition to what was pointed out about fly. Fly only ignores vertical distance for terrain, the model doesn't act as if the terrain is not there. This means if your model does not have the inf/beast/swarm keyword but does have the fly keyword, like a jet bike, it can't just go strait through ruin walls.
Often this doesn't matter, but it can. If you have a 'magic box' style ruin, with a roof and 4 walls, the jetbike can not get inside. Or if it has a roof and 3 walls, the jetbike must move to the opening to get in.
If your model is inside a ruin with 3 walls and a roof, lets say you want to move across the table in the opposite side of the opening, an infantry unit could just walk through that wall no problem. The jetbike unit first has to move backwards to the open side, paying the movement, then it can fly on top (not paying because it is vertical), then it can start moving horizontally . If the bike is 3" deep into a ruin, it could have to pay 6" more movement than a infantry squad to get past that wall.
Yeah Tau Crisis suits in a ruin suffer from this, having to move backwards to avoid the floor to be able to move up and over a Terrain piece.
#6 was very applicable to my Guard Artillery and come changing. Appreciate the video!
Glad it helped!
the most commonly messed up rule ive ever seen is the destroyed units rule on page 201 of the main rule book, it states that unless your model or a rule on their data sheet kills an enemy model, it doesn't count as being killed by you, and doesn't score you points. ive seen pretty much every channel get this wrong
That's because generally endgame VPs that are scored by destroying units generally only check *if* the unit is destroyed, regardless of *who* destroys it.
Take Thin Their Ranks for example; you add to the tally when an enemy model is destroyed, but doesn't care whether your or your opponent destroyed it.
Effects that check whether the model is destroyed by an enemy are most often for special rules or stratagems, not scoring.
Some of these rules are so dumb. Like "look out sir" you have a huge army standing there looking at the enemy and they can't shoot it because somewhere near there is someone hiding.
Amazed pile in and consolidation didn't make the list given how many times players/streamers do it wrong. People often do not move towards the closet enemy to the model but either where they want to go to or towards a unit they are engaged with
hmmm... maybe in part 2?
Also a fight again strat. If you declare a charge against one unit in front of another, kill all in the way, and consolidate into engagement range of the next unit, you cannot fight again into that unit because you did not declare it in the charge
Pile in and consolidate can get pretty funky. You only have to end your move closer to the closest model (on a model by model basis). You can for instance use it to get out of engagement range of a unit that could even be the closest after charge. Pile in to change which model is closer then consolidate the hell out of there ending your move a tiny bit closer to the closest model (from the second unit)
This is soo fantastic, plz do more vids like this.
There are sooo many rules haha.
Good video and I would have played the flyer min move wrong if I had played any flyers in 9th.
BUT
The model placement/wobbly model syndrome interpretation is wrong, IMO. The rule clearly states that it must be possible to *physically place the model*, but if it is in an unstable position where it might fall and suffer damage, you can mark its true position.
The restriction under Wobbly Model is just to make sure you have space to place the base, since it's illegal to overlap other bases or terrain you can't stand on. Once that prerequisite is met there aren't any other restrictions on placement.
@@TacticalTortoise Not wanting to be confrontational or anything, but can you back that up? 😅
Like, it's a game with physical models, does the rulebook say anywhere that terrain is so abstract, you can phase into it? 🤔
@@THeMightyWarHamster Under the measurement rules; it states that only the base is taken into account when measuring. Given that movement/placement is a function of measurement, there's no way the model would be taken into account when determining where a model can be placed.
@@TacticalTortoise that is quite a leap tho. 😅
By that logic, there is nothing preventing me from placing models sideways or hanging them from windowsills by their base.
Also, aircraft for example have to have all their bits inside the DZ, during setup, not just their base, so true volume does matter.
@@THeMightyWarHamster per the core rules you're right; there's literally nothing stopping you from hanging off the sides of terrain. Most communities have houserules (like ITC's old "it sits it fits" for example) to stop that, but it's a very poorly written rule.
IMO the solution is to remove multilevel terrain entirely until the rules get cleaned up. It does nothing to improve the gameplay experience and just opens these silly cans of worms.
None of the T5S2 S3 maps have multilevel terrain outside the occasional munitorum crate.
I’ve never seen anyone place disembarked models from a destroyed vehicle. Totally did not know that.
for someone new to 40k superb thank you for this
Glad it helped!
Two units fully on the same terrain piece giving light cover (+1 save) for ranged attacks. Both units in combat within engagement range. In the shooting phase would the units get light cover saves when firing pistols at each other?
Feels like the targeting difference between shooting and psychic is to avoid situations where a psyker is moved so they can't see the nearest unit in order to Smite a unit further away.
Just keep in mind that if you can't see a unit *at all*, your Smite may still redirect to a unit farther away.
The situation presented in the video only works when you can still see the unit being Smited, just may not have range to the model in LOS.
This is my issue. Even in the current FAQ for Look Out Sir, the large description text says 'visible AND closest UNIT' but on the very same FAQ right under the description text is the quicker reference bullet point using the wording 'visible AND closest TARGET' which units closer but hidden makes them ineligible to a target which then allows you to shoot the character. This conflict of large description text to the bullet under the same Rule raises contradiction. You can check the Rule Glossary for both 'Target' and 'Eligible Target'. This of course puts a need to check Warhammer 40k community at large for general consensus. I personally feel the intent is the 'visible AND the closest TARGET' for the purpose to even include a quick reference bullet is to be clear and concise of meaning behind the large description text.
Don't forget, an enemy unit needs to be within 3" of the character to trigger look out, sir!
By logic it should be that the enemy unit should be visible to your units when triggering look out, sir! or at the very least all shots get "redirected" to the enemy unit hiding because they jump out to protect the character
I thought they got rid of that unit that can't be seen preventing you shooting a character rule because it's closer precisely becasue of the crap in 8th edition where you would do that.
21:20 Not sure about 8. in order to make a successful charge for 2 units, you would be at engagement range of both. P229 of the WH rulebook does state, "A model that is already touching an enemy model cannot move, but counts as having piled in". It really depends if they count being in engagement range as touching. If not then possibly you could move 3" towards the nearest model, but it starts getting a bit unclear and messy. Did they confirm this in FAQ?
Engagement Range is 1"
It's all about positioning, if your 0.99 inches from the orks, but 0.95 from the truck, as long as you end your pile in and consolidation closer to the truck (I.e 0.949 reoccurring) you can move as far away from the orks as your movement allows
Dense Terrain is a good one for this. If your unit is shooting out of Dense terrain but shooting through ANY other piece of terrain, they are still affected by the -1 to hit from the dense.
While RAW you're absolutely correct that's how it works; there's a Designer note that indicates it's not meant to work this way, so I know a lot of tournaments specifically rule it otherwise.
Why GW couldn't just fix the rule instead of leaving it in a designer note I'll never know.
@@TacticalTortoise oooooh good to know, I had not seen this designer note. Cheers
What about measuring to a model that doesn't have a base or a measure from hull rule. Like a Triarch Stalker. What measuring rule would be used in a tournament setting?
Models without bases automatically hull measure; so you'd effectively treat every part of the model as the "base".
Interesting point about wobbly model for any placement. This means people aren’t realising genestealers are actually eligible for more attacks than it seems for the real life tabletop games, because genestealers are difficult to physically fit all of them within 0.5” of 0.5” in CC given the models’ arms get in the way.
he missed the 2nd part of the wobbly model rule "In cases like this, provided it is still physically possible to place the model in the desired location, you may find it helps to leave a model in a safer Position, so long as both players agree and know its actual’ location. If, later on, an enemy model is shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in place so they can check visibility." it isn't physically possible to place the genestealer there because of another gene-stealers arms you cannot put a spare base there instead.
During the second game I have ever played I ran into the look out sir issue where the character was the closest visible yet not closest unit. When asking why such a stupid situation was allowed on Reddit they said that at least it prevents rhino snipping. I guess that makes sense.
8:34 This is why we assign the Breachable keyword to terrain because that's a silly way to do it.
In fairness, breathable only changes how infantry/beast/swarm interact with the feature. Any over unit type has to climb over like that.
@@TacticalTortoise Just to get things right. Doesn't that mean a non (Infantry, Beast, Swarm) model would have to move over the ground, up the wall, back the ceiling, over the next floor, up the wall... to cross a ruin? The model in the video moves through the ceilings, wich is not possible for nonIBS.
When flying units fly, that is a bad example as ruins are breachable by infantry and any infantry model would be able to walk straight through.
I find that a lot of players don't know how to even setup the battlefield. For example, when selecting a mission and it comes up as say Strike Force - Sweep and Clear or Priority Target players will choose a table corner rather than a deployment zone as shown in the example. Some players see the example map setup as a fixed deployment zone setup when it comes to these table corner style of battlefields and others see them as an example of how it should be setup and choose any corner and make the opponent deploy opposite. It happens in tournaments as well as regular "friendly" games. So, perhaps you can make a video on deployments in 9th edition as it doesn't seem have a lot of helpful videos on the topic.
So we now have goonhammer LITERALLY coming out and contradicting what you say at 3:50, they claim the model cannot go through terrain even if base fits, so the example with the hive tyrant., according to goonhammer, is wrong. which one of you is right?
I mean; my opinion on which side is right is probably pretty biased ngl :P
But I also literally have as much authority as Goonhammer AND a rule that says only model's bases count for positioning so...
So if you have a flying model that is moving in the movement phase that started its move on top of a terrain feature, can it drop down to ground level without having to measure the distance?
You didn't really touch on this in the explanation, but it came up in a game a while back. For some reason we thought that you had to account for the vertical distance on a model that had fly if it started the move on a terrain feature.
What can you choose to fight if you are eligible to fight? Watching your charge one, pile in on the other I thought the charging unit is only able to fight whomever they charged.
Hey im fairly new to the hobby , i still dont understand some basic things . A ) can a unit pile and consolidate every time ? Or can it only consolidate after it has destroyed an opponent in melee and then has 3 inched to go to the closest enemy unit . Or could it pile and consolidate each new melee phase so it can reposition for getting more models in melee able to hit . B) and are they allowed to do that even if it is not my turn and i am hitting back ..or is it only in my own melee phase ? C) And if its possible every meleephase.... does it work while im still being in melee with an enemy unit ? Lets Say i potentialy consolidate into a closeby 2 inch away standing second enemy while im already in melee . Can i bind 2 units so to say knowing that they probably could hit me but probably denyin a charge or shooting in their next turn ?
If a unit is eligible to fight (it charged that turn or it has an enemy unit within Engagement range) then it can Pile In, Fight and then Consolidate. You don't need to wipe a unit to Consolidate.
You can pile in and/or consolidate into more units units. They will likely get to fight if you do so. If the unit you are using Charged this turn it can only make attacks are units it declared as a target of it's charge that turn. When charging in 9th you need to reach and move within engagement range of every unit you targeted or the charge fails.
Sorry if I missed it but does fly still ignore terrain penalties when charging just not vertical distance? For example craters -2 to charge
I think so because they still have the keyword, and I think the terrain piece references the keywords. They just don't get to ignore the footprint of terrain.
They do ignore the penalty from Difficult Terrain when charging; that's just a special rule for Difficult Terrain tho.
Disciplined shooters combined with first rank fire second rank fire. Is it 36 lasgun shots at 18 inches?? Also, with laurels of command, can you issue that order to a unit you already issued an order to? Sorry for bad english
Great video btw
@@constantinekorkousky3363 Yes, Disciplined Shooters double their rapidfire attacks at 18"
No, Laurels cannot double-order a unit, this is covered in the AM FAQ.
My understanding of the Rules as written for overwatch is that you can no longer avoid being overwatched by charging from out of line of sight.
Is that correct?
Not really; line of sight was never a prerequisite for Overwatch, but it is a requirement for being targeted by the resulting ranged attack. So unless the unit you're charging has an indirect fire weapon they can't shoot you at all if they can't see you.
Great video, thank you!
Can you explain fight first/Last/not be elidgable to be chosen to fight/charged+fight last/etc...it really grind my gears. I think there was a faq for all "fight last".
Any rules where a model can fight or shoot when its killed. Doesnt the player have to: choose first which model to allocate wounds->roll save->if its killed, roll 4+ (or whatever)-> shoots/fights.
And not: roll saves for whole squad->roll 4+ for number of killed models-> chose which model fights/shoots ?!?!?!
Bases are not just for range, they are also their "footprint" in the game. So you can't place one base over another base of a model. This is something i see alot of, when players try to fit a unit in behind LOS blocking terrain, that the bases end up overlapping, and overlapping is not alowed.
Yep; models can't stand on or move across other baes; great point. :)
@@TacticalTortoise forgot to praise the video, I liked it. important now that we are not given the opportunity to play as much, as you yourself mentioned, GW still has problems formulating sensible rules. I think they should stick to "visible" units on many of the rules, to minimize misunderstandings, but that will probably be fixed in the 10th ed. ;)
So if two of my units charge in and the first unit kills the enemy then my second unit can still move 3" towards the nearest model and maybe get into engagement range but not attack?
question: so if an character charge a company champion in the fight phase the champion(using Martial Superiority ) can beat him right?
Nice vid. Question. Is it possible to do a heroic intervention on a unit that failed a charge? Like if you are on the corner of a friendly unit, the attacker rolls really low, can you move your character 3 inches of it ends in range?
Distance verses displacement. Really wish the rules used those two terms, would help provide a lot more clarity. 10" then 90 degree, then 10" = 20" distance movement BUT is only 10" displacement
This was a great video! Thank you! On the topic of actions, what about things like transports and disembarking? Say I have a transport who is performing an action, are they allowed to start the action and disembark, or will that break the action? Thanks again! I liked and subscribed thanks to this video :)
Question- at 20.45 when the vanguard vet consolidates into the truck, if the boyz are still within 3 of the vet are they still eligible to pile in and fight?
@TideUltra13 ok, so they arent eligible at all to activate. Thats one im definitely getting wrong then
True most common rule everybody gets wrong: Ancients. Around 95% of the playerbase, especially those run this model, think that he is there simply to look cool and he has no abilities. He apparently gives a fight on death and sometimes other auras, but you'll never see it done!
The ancient is really slept on. He can give obj sec as well. Which is insane
@@Tibruk64 True! But I was saying that people do run him on occassion, but simply forget to apply any of his abilities lol.
I loled, but only because I'm one of the 95% who run the model sometimes :sob:
Disembarking from a destroyed transport was just a topic in my local league. Can you please find the rule that states you can disembark by model in a unit and not by unit? Rules as written you can place a unit "not within Engagement Range of any enemy models" when disembarking. I haven't come across rules that state you can place by model when disembarking. I'm also unaware of any rules that allow you to destroy models in a unit that cannot be set up outside of Engagement Range in order to keep the remaining models of said unit. Thanks!
Not really sure what "disembark by model" rule you're referring to, but the rule that destroys models that can't be set up is in the Coherency section.
@@TacticalTortoise My point is that there is no rule that allows you to set up the unit within engagement. The unit must be outside of engagement range, and wholly within 3” (unless you use the strat for 6”). If your unit can not meet these parameters, rules as written, they’re not allowed to disembark a destroyed transport. You’d need to use the strat or they’re not able to disembark. In 8th Ed, there was a line that specifically allowed you to do this by model, and remove models that couldn’t fit. That line no longer exists.
That situation just falls under the Unit Coherency clause; "Sometimes there will be insufficient room to set up all the models from a unit, or it will not be possible to set up all the models so that they are in unit coherency. When this is the case, any models that cannot be set up are considered to have been destroyed."
@@TacticalTortoise How can you set up a unit that isn’t legally allowed to be placed? Your unit doesn’t meet the requirements to be placed in the first place. Being able to remove models so that the unit meets said requirements isn’t anywhere in the rule book, and applying unit coherency to get around the conditions for disembarking doesn’t sound legal. The conditions for disembark aren’t by model, the section refers to the entire unit needing to be within 3” of the transport and out of engagement range.
Facing an imperial knight bro, with five edition vehicle rule...
Remember? When they did not have any hp?
He died turn two when my boss used his claw...
should mention the commonly misplaced Flail of corruption or extremis trigger word, d3 hit rolls in not d3 a
Extra attacks it pretty well guarantees the attacks you do have will hit.
I'm noticing a lot of confusion between fight first, not being eligible to fight until all others have done so, and what happens when these effects stacks (e.g. veil of time'd blood angels warlord with speed of the primarch charging and stuff like judiciars/whirlwinds/psychomancers etc). Some people think judiciars trump all other effects but other fight last effects like whirlwinds and psychomancers dont... despite they all use the same eligibility wording :/
Judiciar says "That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so."
Whirlwind Suppression Fire says "...cannot be selected to fight until all eligible units from your army have done so."
They don't use the same eligibility wording, the whirlwind strat doesn't make a unit "not eligible".
Can you use the Counter Offensive stratagem to fight with a unit that is not in combat? No. Why not? Because that unit is "not eligible" to fight. A Judiciar makes a unit "not eligible".
The charging units fight first rule says "This means that units that did not make a charge move this
turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought." As this rule doesn't make enemy units "not eligible" either you can use Counter Offensive to interupt after a charging unit, and you can use it to make a unit affected by similar "cannot be selected until" rules, but Counter Offensive requires an eligible unit as a target for the strat.
@@ShasLaMontyr cheers for that. Do thimgs change with the whirlwing if fight first effects stack? (E.g. Charging keeper of secrets or veil of timed speed of the primarch BA warlord) do they all cancel each other to create a situation where all rules are ignored, or does one instance of fight 1st/last cancel each other out and any stacked instances then apply?
No worries,@@xandermacleod that question though... I don't know. The Fight Last Rare rule says that if a unit is affected by Fight last (like Suppression) and Fight first then it fights as if affected by neither. However charging meets the definition of a Fight First ability, and it doesn't clarify if a unit has Charged and Fights First if a Fight Last effect cancels one or both of it's Fight First effects. As the rule is singular though, I tend to play that it only cancels out one of them.
@@ShasLaMontyr A fight last does only cancel one of the 2 instances of a fight 1st. In regards to the "ineligible" new 9th wording , it is still argued in many big w40k circles if that is just a new wording that means the same as a fight last or not , Need to rule that one yourselves pre game / pre tournaments with opponents / T.O. 's
@@mariusevander2214 can you point me to where it says it cancels just the one? As the rare rule says "If a unit is under the affects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight in the fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it". That is ambiguous. It also doesn't specify which of the rules they might get to keep.
And yeah I know the "not eligible" think is argued about. I'm just not sure why it is, if it was the "new wording" for such abilities it makes no sense that the Silent King didn't get it as an entirely new character with new abilities or that the SM codex has both. "Not eligible" for Judiciar and "cannot be selected" for the Whirlwind Strat. It seems very specifically different and far less ambiguous that plenty of other rules in the game are.
Just to be clear and make sure am understanding the distinction between chargers and interveners. With regardless to Charges made in the fight phase. If two of my units declare a charge on the same unit of boyz, and the first unit manages to wipe out all the squads. When my second unit activates does it now get to pile in & consolidate? Or just Consolidate?
It gets to both Pile In & Consolidate, but can only attack if it has legal targets (i.e. units it charged) within 1" after it piles in. So if its charge targets are all already dead it's basically just free movement (keep in mind they still have to go towards the closest enemy etc.).
@@TacticalTortoise understood! Thanks a ton, am always getting challenged one whether I could pile in. This really clears up a lot and you have given me so much more value out of my Heroic interventions as well! Thank you so much for these kinds of vids.
Sorry for offtopic, but what libraries for TTS do you use? Firs time I see well defined bases to be able to measure from/to unit.
ua-cam.com/video/vZl8T34HYuk/v-deo.html
I have never seen the rule you go over that states to go up a level in a building that you have to first touch a wall played that way before in a tourney or a casual game. Where are you getting that interpretation from so I can read it over. I'm not doubting you, just have never seen it played that way.
Movement phase: "moving over terrain"
@@TacticalTortoise Can you please point out where does it say that you must touch the wall:
"MOVING OVER TERRAIN
When a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved over a terrain
feature but not through it (so models can’t move through a wall, but can
climb up or over it).
‘A model can be moved over terrain features that are 1" or less in height
as if they were not there - any vertical distance up and/or down that they
would have to make to traverse such terrain features is ignored, A model
can be moved vertically in order to climb up, down and over any terrain
features that are higher than this, counting the vertical distance up and/or
down as part of its move. Models cannot finish any kind of move midclimb
- if it is not possible to end the move as a result, that move cannot
be made."
concerning the tule about having to disembark all of your units when a vehicle is destroyed... when do you roll for the explosion? (assuming the vehicle has one.) Would it be disembark, roll for dead units and then the explosion?
You're after the Destroyed Transports rule on page 211.
You resolve the explosion before placing any models from the embarked units. So the embarked units aren't hit by the explosion, they just have to deal with losing a model for each roll of a 1.
You have to place the units before removing the transport that exploded or rolling the casualties though, to see if any die from not being able to fit anywhere when disembarking before casualties rolls removes anymore.
I thought the video covered your question very well , actually written out as well as verbally ?
@tacticalTortoise or anyone else in chat: Question regarding point #5 When placing models after a destroyed transport. Don’t the models all need to be placed in unit coherency with each other or be destroyed. As far as i know at no time may models not be in unit coherency. Thanks in advance.
Yes; everyone in the unit has to be in coherency; any models that don't fit in coherency die
What about Aircraft and LOS, is it to the Hull or to the base? Specifically in terms of the Guard Valkyrie model?
LOS is drawn to any point on the model including the base. If they can see a wing but not the base, valid target. If they can see the base but not a wing, valid target. If they can't see anything, invalid target.
Edit: Unless by LOS you mean Look Out Sir instead of Line of Sight, in which case the 3" measurement to the character is base to base.
For the look yout sir. Lets say your librarian is in front of a 5 man squad that provides look out sir and 12 inches from the orcs, he could be shot. But if there is a 2 man squad that does not give look out sir on the other side of the orcs 10 inches away they would still be forced to shoot the 2 man squad before being able to shoot the librarian?
Annoyingly, that 2-man squad you mention, which qualify as the closer unit/models, would indeed cause you to NOT be able to shoot at the Librarian. Is it stupid? I think so - but rules as written say so. GW need to clarify this even further, mostly due to the fact it doesn't sit right as you can see in all the other comments referring to this so far
08:11 : Where did you read that ?
Models have to "climb" terrain in order to move vertically along it (in the Moving Over Terrain rules).
It's also indicated several places that terrain features are components of the battlefield, and all movement takes place across battlefield surfaces.
@@TacticalTortoise I am not sure, but I think it's not how it works, that is why I asked if you could quote a page for we can solve this together. Rulebook p.263 says : Scaleable so Ruins "...models can move through the floors, ceilings, and gantries of this terrian without impediment." Same words for Breachable.
Great vid bro very helpful , quick one for the commenters, if I charge a unit and then consolidate into another that I have not declared a charge on , does that unit get to fight me before the end of the phase? I’m certain it’s a no but other people I’ve seen playing online seem to think they can ??
Yes they can fight you. The conditions for being able to fight are:
1. Made a charge move
2. Is in engagement range of an enemy model
If you consolidate into another unit you are full filling clause 2 so they can fight into you.
Yes.
@@Glarrgify Note, those conditions are "or" not "and" :-)
Thank you guys ,funny how 1 person being so sure can help to set incorrect things in stone in your mind. This started when a guy in my local group began to use this as a wrap and trap tactic, he was a bit of a toxic dude and kinda turned my friend group away from the club, now getting back into things with the lockdowns and vids and replies like this are really helping me get a better sense of the rules thanks so much guys!
And what about for example models with keywords that do not let them go through terrain. Like deamon prince or custo jetbikes in charge. They cannot move through ruin in charge ?
No, they have to move over the ruin, counting all distances of up, over and down.
ghost arks may as well have ObSec (eternal conquerors)
Good call; that is to say... they probably will because Eternal Conquerers is incredible xD
On rule #7 second example of play consolidation moves must end closet to the nearest enemy unit than you started
Yes
That is the point. You start within engagement range of both units, but slightly closer to one than another. Then, after fighting, you use your consolidate move to move closer to the nearest enemy unit. You do not have to move closer in a straight line, just closer. In the example shown, the vanguard vet starts closer to the truck (by a fraction of an inch). After it fights, it then consolidates, and uses its consolidation to move the full three inches, away from the boyz but ending its move even closer to the truck.
This can get really sneaky - you can prevent heroic interventions that way. A unit can only heroically intervene if there are no units within engagement range in the charge phase. So if you charge the character and another unit, you can end in engagement range of both. The character therefore can't intervene. You fight first, and use your consolidation as shown above to move out of engagement range of the character. As there are no enemies left within engagement range, that character cannot be activated, and has already missed the chance to heroically intervene.
If the heroic intervention denying nonsense above is not sufficiently rage inducing, if you have friends you absolutely do not want anymore, if you are a masochist who gets kicks from being punched in the face . . . then play Harlequins. Perform the trick above, but then use the Harlequin fight twice stratagem. This allows a second pile-in move before fighting again, potentially allowing you to damage a target while denying a heroic intervention, then pile squad members back into the character (each model has to meet the 'moving closer' clause when consolidating out of engagement range, so this requires finesse), fight again and kill it.
Was there a FAQ that said the models disembarking are destroyed if not wholly within 3"? Nowhere in the rule book does it say that for vehicles being destroyed.
It's not under the "Transport" section, because it's not related to "Transport" per se. It's under the "Unit Coherency" rules, at the start of the rulebook. Here's the excerpt : "Sometimes there will be insufficient room to set up all the models from a unit, or it will not be possible to set up all the models so that they are in unit coherency. When this is the case, any models that cannot be set up are considered to have been destroyed."
^^^
This was ultra helpful thank you so much
Glad it helped!
Question, at 20:06, when the librarian heroically intervenes, if the tactical marines hadn't killed the boys, would the librarian have been able to fight, since he would have been engaged? Otherwise, saying that "even though it feels like a charge, he still can't activate" seems very misleading, when it would be better to say, the reason he can't fight is because he is no longer engaged. Can't you just say, he can't activate because the boys are all dead?
If, after the tactical marines fight, there are still Orks engaging the Librarian, the Librarian could fight.
The point is just that HI doesn't *automatically* allow you to activate; you still need to be engaged.
Interesting. Thanks for the content!
Got a question from a game last weekend. Some blast weapons have multiple D3 or D6 dice rolls, eg 2D6. If shooting into a large unit (20 ork boys) would you get a minimum of 6 or 12 shots?
When shooting at a unit of size 11+ you get the weapons maximum number of shots. So for a 2d6 shot blast weapon you would get 12.
However when shooting at a unit of size 6-10 you get minimum 3 shots, regardless of how many dice are rolled to generate the number of shots. So a 3d6 shot blast weapon firing at a 10 man unit would not get any benefit from this rule, as it always rolls a minimum of 3.
Just to clarify, look out sir has a few more restrictions than suggested in the video right? Such as the 'defending' unit needing 3 or more models etc. That isn't particularly important to the point in the video, but I'd like to check I'm playing it right!
Yep; the unit looking out has either be a monster/vehicle, a character monster/vehicle with 10+ wounds, or a unit with 3+ models.
I don't get many rules wrong, but I do forget my strategems and LITANIES
Should have demonstrated the Shift key at 9:25 to show verticle and horizontal line components of the move Trevy.
Question in regards to admech sulphurhounds(Pistoleers). Do they take a minus 1 to hit when advancing like assult weapons, or do they ignore that?
No; only Assault weapons suffer the -1 to hit while advancing innately.
People thinking they can use outflank stratagems to alpha strike people. It's annoyingly common where I live.
what is that program featured? is that a game where you can play 40k, without having the minis?
tts40k.com
@@TacticalTortoise I was looking at it on steam.
might give this a go. hopefully I don't break it though with my lack of understanding of mods.
Can't consolidate out of combat, as "Each model must finish its Consolidation move closer to the closest enemy model."
Unless there is another model you are in melee with that is closer than the other; then you can potentially leave the engagement range of the farther unit (as shown in the demo). :)
@@TacticalTortoise I guess it wasn't clear in the video.
Thank you for the info!
If the tournament table deepstrike abuse was indeed the reason for the rules change, the change itself was pretty stupid. GW could have ruled that the 9 inches are to be measured in the same way as any other flyer movement (.e. horizontally only) and they would've been good and the rules wouldn't have had another annoying special case to take care of.
Bit of confusion about RAW LoS here. If my opponent has a librarian, who is standing behind a rock that comes up to his waste, can I shoot him, even though technically his base is hidden?
If the height of the terrain matters, what if I have a tall character on a hero rock trying to hide behind a rock with a height of 1.5", or 2.1"?
If the only thing that matters is the base, how does this interact with the barricades or hills keywords for terrain?
(Assume the characters mentioned are not Looked Out for)
Atm, my local players just agree based on what is reasonable (very much a RAI community, unless we agree the game will be very competitive beforehand).
Line of sight is traced from any point on a model, to any point on a model. Base is only used for distance measuring/positioning.
@@TacticalTortoise Thanks for the reply clears quite a few things up.
For the charge example you did with the vanguard vet. Is it not against the rules to pile in or consolidate any model that is already in base to base contact?
Edit: clarification on what I mean. You can't move a model in one of those types of move unless they are not in base to base contact already (such as an model in a second rank)
If you are in base contact with an enemy you cannot Pile In or Consolidate.
Awesome Bro, thank you!
Cheers!
What program is being used?! I think you said Tabletop Simulator. If so, What extension is needed for Warhammer 40k? That is great!
You can find all our tutorials for installing here: ua-cam.com/play/PLQ3XKnC0s3CimbClyhVwjFVFzmuRh3SWj.html
What workshop mod are you using for those nice looking ultramarines? They look way better than the ones I have found.
They're just the standard ones from the BFMP: ua-cam.com/video/vZl8T34HYuk/v-deo.html
@@TacticalTortoise thank you!
At 21:00, if the Ork Boyz were actually a character, would they be able to Heroically Intervene having been Charged (then consolidated away from)?
@@jipjipperson No, Heroic Intervention only triggers at the end of the charge phase. Consolidation happens during the fight phase.
@@TacticalTortoise thought that was the case, but wasn’t sure. Didn’t even realise the deal with ‘Look Out Sir!’ and that random out of sight Assault Marine meaning the Librarian was untargettable, feels a bit janky.
for me they should change the 2nd part of los to visible model, it's gross to have the rule like this and has no sense
Yeah it's weird that there isn't just a core "how to target" rule in the measuring distances section or something that all these phases refer back to.
They used to have rules on that and in 30k still do
@@TacticalTortoise while we’re discussing your LOS clarifications, you missed a small yet important fact. The Look Out Sir rule cannot be used by a unit with less than 3 models, unless it is a monster or vehicle. See P. 219 of the Core Rules. This makes your example with the one guy creating Look Out Sir incorrect. Otherwise it checks out!
Yeah that rule is rather BS, I play guard and say I have a commissar near the front lines but all my other models are down in trenches or buildings out of line of sight, you wouldn't be able to shoot any of my models because they can only see the commissar but can't target him because there's a squad of guys hidden just below him in a trench
@@dragonknightadam The rule has some weird interactions, but it is set up like that for a very important reason. It used to be at the beginning of 8th that you could target characters that were the closest visible target, regardless of targets that were out of los. However, players quickly realized that things like rhinos can block line of sight. So, you position your rhino next to your eradicators so that they cant see the other unit, and can only see the character, and suddenly you could shoot the character! This kind of los sniping is what made the rule change to where it is now. It can be a little finicky at times, but is set up that way for a really good reason.
20:55 you consolidate away from the boyz how is that possible when you have have to consolidate towards the closest unit?
If you're closer to model A than model B, you can potentially pile away from model B's engagement range.
It's all explained in more detail here: ua-cam.com/video/RVhnFIpmry0/v-deo.html
Great vid i wanted to ask if the silent king got into combat with a model with the armour of russ how would that work?
Thanks for watching!
I've had disagreements with players when it comes to measuring for aircraft. The Stormfang Gunship doesn't have the measure to the hull ability. So do you mesure attacks coming in to the base or hull of the aircraft
If a model has a base, always measure from the base and ignore the model on top unless it has a rule stating otherwise.
@@TacticalTortoise that's what I had thought but there was some obscure rule that stated to the hull for aircrafts
Is there anything that stops a player from removing casualties from the middle of a unit and then end up having two groups of units in coherency that are holding two different objectives across the gaming table?
Yeah, unit coherency rules. One of those "combat squads" would suffer attrition
You can remove models in such a way, but one of the "pods" of models would be removed at the end of the morale phase for coherency.
If I charge into a single model in a unit of 10, each as far apart as possible (ike a screen/ striaght line) and deal 10 wounds would each space marine take a wound or would all 10 wounds only go on models within 3inches of the one I charged?
The player that owns the 10 model unit can allocate wounds to any model in that unit they like. Regardless of how far away it is from the unit dealing the damage.
Although if a model has already taken a wound, it must be finished off before the next model can start taking damage. So you cannot end up in a situation where ten 2W marines have all taken 1 damage.
Saves (and therefore wounds) are assigned by the unit's controlling player to any model in the unit they want, but once a model is wounded, further wounds have to be assigned to that model until it's dead. Keep in mind also that once a model in a unit takes a save it has to continue have saves assigned to it until the end of the phase or it's dead, even if it makes all of them.
@@ArsonFire3 ahhh okay, because one of the guys I play with says it doesnt work like that, when my lord discordant charged into his line of 20 necrons I was only allowed to kill 4 which is very bad compared to what lord discordant is capable of lmao...and yes those 4 did stand back up
@@TacticalTortoise thank you so much for the help you two
@@dillonhansen3839 He's confusing older edition rules. God... I wanna say 3rd was like that?
Objective Secured sent me. Enjoyed the video and subbed
Glad you found it useful!
Very well done!