Honestly a pointless attack on an old man that has honestly made some great sounding speakers at ridiculously affordable prices...truly weird. I just got myself some LRS+ and they're everything I expected them to be and more. And I added a small REL to round out the bass, no big deal. They beat any box speaker anytime, and cost almost nothing compared to these that cost 50 times more. Again, a truly unnecessary dressing down of a gentleman that has done wonders in the industry.
@dannygnaniah7552, Not exactly sure how you are drawing that conclusion from this video. I love Wendell. He is like a dad or a grandfather to me. Hopefully some of these other videos that I link below will shed some more light on my actual real-life relationship with Wendell and Galina. But just for the record, Wendell liked this video and thought it was hilarious. He wanted me to post it. It was just a prank on a friend. :) My interview with Jim Winey - ua-cam.com/video/I-2cdTpjEZo/v-deo.html Wendell and Galina visit me at my home - ua-cam.com/video/MIhlNcU7vxE/v-deo.html My interview with Mick - ua-cam.com/video/pLfTjyPomhA/v-deo.html An interview I do with Wendell - ua-cam.com/video/4s9BqABrRv4/v-deo.html Another interview I do with Wendell - ua-cam.com/video/QezVla7IeAA/v-deo.html Schiit Audio/Magnepan Dipole Woofer Reaction Video - ua-cam.com/video/eDt82Ughvyw/v-deo.html& How I met Wendell - ua-cam.com/video/tToBDcLDrNk/v-deo.html Again, hope the above videos help shed some light on all this. Thank you for watching! ---Cynthia, The Audio Belle
I enjoyed this video, it sounded more like a little friendly competition and debate because everyone in design always operates on basic universal principles, and then their own conclusions and design philosophies to get to a certain point. I like the concept of the Diptique definitely specially, for someone that may not want to go the mile trying to match proper subwoofer with such type speakers, I personally have owned a pair of 1970s magnepans and have had the fortune of hearing later models and have Incorp them with different subwoofers outside of REL subwoofers there is another that worked very well with them and it was small KEF sub that they came out with a few years ago, but anyhow, this is all good, it is fun to watch the meeting of great minds. Great video thumbs up.
What few seam to see are the friendships and social nature of these shows among reviewers and the industry. We don’t go to see new stuff; we go to see old friends. Wendell is a legend in the audio industry. This was clearly not done to disrespect him. Consider this an opportunity to see what happens after the show doors close and those of us fortunate to be in or connected with this industry do after hours. We drink, laugh, listen and enjoy each others company around the gear, not because of the gear.
Dissenting view here. I heard Wendell defending real music based on the sound of the concert hall. These guys only seemed interested in displaying a planar speaker to make people say, "Maggies can't do that!" So . . .?
Wendell is right on so many levels. I have some top audiophile and military DSP systems, and I would rather only process the bass if possible, rather than the entire spectrum, since the DSP affects more than just frequency response. To me, it makes a lot more sense to dial in bass for a given speaker and room via subwoofers than having to put the entire spectrum through DSP to just fix the bass. Also, the more low frequency extension you have in a given monitor, the more you are constantly translating, vibrating and otherwise affecting the rest of the audible range.
If one wanted that Magnepan sound on the cheap, LRS Plus, add on the stands, and then Danny from GR Research LRS+ mod, two REL Tx5 subs, you are looking at $3,200.00. One heck of a speaker.
First of all: I don't like how Mr.Wendell was "stripped" in front of the camera, by using a comparative product that is nearly 10 time more expensive than an 3.7i. This is bad ass behavior. Second point is: The "lack" of bass at Magnepan speakers is foundet at the used magnets, their placement (distance) to the "coil" - and last but not least by the "plugs" at the membrane. Due to the very low magnetism of the used magnets, they have to choose a relatively low distance between the magnets and the membrane to get an usable efficincy. But this would cause collision between them. Therefore Magnepan is placing "plugs" at the membran to fix them in order to avoid big membrane-movements. And as we know: To create bass (low bass), one neeed "big" movement - or very large membranes. And this is the reason, why Magnepans can produce "bass" only with their very large models as the MG20's. Sometimes it's so easy...
I love this video. I live 30 minutes away from Magnepan and am wondering why I’ve never owned a pair despite the fact that I love them every time I listen to them. Found your channel because of Steve Guttenberg. It’s now my new favorite channel. Keep doing what your doing.
Here's some knowledge from an engineer who has no skin in this game. For me it's just a hobby. Like all vibrating things they are described by Newton's second law of motion, in this case as applied to forced oscillation. This is first year college physics. This equation is used for many things such as the way your car's suspension works when you hit a bump. There are three components that can be tuned, the moving mass, the damping factor, and the spring constant. In a woofer, air pressure plays a role so the ideal gas laws also come into play. That's first year college chemistry. By adjusting the three parameters you can tune a speaker to have any frequency response. Among the worst design is the ported design. at some frequencies the air moves easily through the port. At others half an octave away it will hardly move at all. This creates a big bump in the frequency response. It's like a pipe that's been tuned in an organ or a wind instrument. It wants to vibrate at its resonant frequency and keep vibrating at that frequency even when the amplifiers says stop. We call this a high Q which stands for resonance magnification factor and poor damping. The spring constant parameter also changes with frequency due to its mechanical design. Air turbulence at the entry an exit of the port also change the damping factor and spring constant. So the frequency response is a function of how loud it is played and what frequency it is tuned to. In the 1960s they were called one note Johneys. A great deal of work was done by Roy Allison at Acoustic Research in the 1960s and later by Floyd Toole about how bass frequencies couple to a room. Here is a curve you may never have seen. A lot can be learned from it. It's called the Fletcher Munson curves. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour On the left vertical axis is actual loudness. On the bottom axis is frequency. Each curve represents equal perceived loudness. For example it is clear that the human ear is very sensitive to sound at around 4 to 5 khz but not so sensitive at bass frequencies. On the right side you can see that at 20 khz all of the curves rise vertically. The bottom curve is the threshold of hearing, the softest sounds you can hear. The next curve above the top curve not shown in this example is the threshold of pain where sound at that level and louder is perceived as pain. At 20 khz you see that they cross each other so that for sound to be experienced at and above that frequency it must be so loud that it is perceived as pain, not sound. So when someone tells you that you need FR above 20 khz you can tell them that they don't know what they are talking about. Notice that at low frequencies the curves are squashed together. It has to get fairly loud before you hear any low bass at all. Then above this bottom curve each incremental change is real loudness has a disproportionately larger change in perceived loudness. The idea that one size fits all doesn't work. To keep bass in proper tonal balance with the rest of the music it has to be adjusted for each room and each recording as well as at how loud you are listening to it. It's one of many mistakes audiophiles make, one size fits all. In the demo it was clear none of the so called "experts" understood that. All means to make adjustments have been removed on the incorrect theory that the fewer elements in the signal path the better. This is also false.
" ... it has to be adjusted for each room ... In the demo it was clear none of the so called "experts" understood that." - vendors get hotel rooms of which they have little control other than hauling stuff in. And yes, many audiophiles know that the room is key and that low frequencies are room dependent and placement dependent. A show like AXPONA is about holding meet-and-greets and for industry members to interact, more than to put on perfect auditioning sessions.
@@TheDanEdwards Once you get it the way you want it for one recording how do you adjust it for another? Move the speakers around? Where is the control? There isn't any. Every recording is different.
Some good stuff here. I try to explain that I reject any speaker designed with ports of any kind out of hand. Because of the speed of sound/ pressure wave through air... the output from that opening is always time delayed and smears the low end. The Q can be reduced, passive radiators,... but it's delayed mid bass boom. Laws of physics. The issue I have had with the Fletcher-Munson curve is not about human hearing being nonlinear RE amplitude, but that I doubt anyone could reproduce 20-20kHz that accurately in 1933. Or even the revised Robinson and Dadson in 1956. Even today it would be very expensive and difficult to set up a 20-20Khz dead flat system. Not only speakers/ (headphones?) of the day, but the electronics did not have that good of differential gain performance. And to output 20khz back then? Along that line, time domain instead of frequency, the human auditory system has been proven to respond to timing differences between ears (leading edge/ high frequency detection) little as 10-20 microseconds, IOW 100khz+ detection capabilities. "The auditory system encodes the timing of peaks in basilar-membrane motion with exquisite precision, and perceptual models of binaural processing indicate that the limit of temporal resolution in humans is as little as 10-20 microseconds." And yes drivers/ speakers coupling to the room! I consider Maggies to be more of the drivers and the room the enclosure. Or Allison AR-LST loading to the wall, compared to regular boxed speakers throwing air pressure out of the front. I was an AR rep when they introduced the AR 9 lineup with it's intentional 2pi loading of the woofers and slight horns around the domes to increase their efficiency by 3db. Now everyone want's their boxes away from the back wall?
@@glenncurry3041 the delay of a resonator based system like a port is in 10-20ms range, that is completely inaudible in listening rooms for humans. The reason and only reason ported speakers sound boomy is because the combination of more bass extension and room modes and room gain create literal 100x longer resonances and often way to much bass. You can easily measure this, in a non bass reflex speaker there is less bass and also thus less influence of room modes. Phase shifts are complete inaudible due to how our hearing works it easily takes 100+ ms to even hear the bass for our ear the group delay of a resonanter doesn’t matter in comparison (google Geddes he did the research). There is a lot to say about why one wouldn’t use bass reflex but group delay definitely is not one of them.
I agree with the wall comment. Kind of. I would love to see a planar speaker that sounds good in a recess on the wall. Media room with a large recess to the right and left so that the speakers disappear into the room and fill it with great sound.
Whenever Magnepan decides to use stronger magnetic fields and larger excursions then maggies will too do dynamics and base better. But Magnepan has refused to do that for years now and I don't know what it will take for them to change their minds. Also, the Magnepan manufacturing process is very labor intensive (the material costs are mostly quite low) and that is something which controls what they can do as far as changes and costs.
Magnepan has not made any radical technological advances for decades. It is what it is, and they have a "take it or leave it" approach to their potential customers. It could be out there pushing the envelope of speaker technology but instead decides to play it safe. Hell, most of the photos on their website are older than any potential Gen-Z customers! 😂
Actually, as a military DoD/DoE and now private sector AI developer and media engineer for decades who has created and processed petabytes of AI audio training and eval data I can tell you unequiviquolly that it is completely inaccurate to assert that orchestral sound is the most complex thing for a speaker to be able to reproduce. That is a completely fabricated statement created by a marketing team decades ago, and I so wish people would stop asserting that. First you have to establish your metrics for input and measurement. Then you have to define your data features for testing and evaluation. Then you need to define, engineer and bound your measurement criteria and chain(s). Next, you need to acquire and/or create your data source domain for the testing. Finally, you need to setup and run your test across the various speakers/monitors, environments or whatever other domain variables you may have and evaluate your results. With something that has real world considerations like music reproduction has, you should often include human subject evaluations for tracking and comparison with the empirical data and determine the correlations that may exist for practical and other purposes. (ideally double blind, etc; but regardless). Once you have done those things then you can begin to compare and contrast the resulting quantitative and qualitative information. With most speakers/monitors you will find that what matters much more includes other factors than music type, such as how the music is recorded (e.g. microphone types, placement/range, etc), the recording chain and the associated performance metrics (dynamic range, slew rate, etc), and the format recorded to, such as DSD 256+ vs 44.1kHz 16 bit PCM. For example Genesis’ Squonk at 96kHz 24 bits is actually much harder for most properly match-amplified speakers to track than virtually all symphonic. In fact, various prog rock and even close mic’d high grade singer songwriter done on well chosen and configured mic’s to DSD is often more difficult for many (especially monopole or cardioid pattern “box” speakers) than most orchestral. However, these are just some of many such examples, which you should test or read research papers on before you keep spreading this information. Generally, the type of speaker and its components substantially defines what is hardest for it to reproduce, assuming capable sound reproduction chain. Finally, if you are only able to do subjective human testing, then the most important thing to consider testing on are the musical pieces, passages and styles that you and your brain are most familiar with, since that will determine the factors and extents for your evaluation and related testing. If you listen to a lot of,symphonic and know certain pieces very well, then go for that. If it’s jazz then go for those pieces. Finally, never forget that the room is the second most critical factor of dozens, since as Wendell said, the speakers have to work with the room.
I have the Maggie 1.7i’s and I am very happy with them incorporated with my McIntosh ma12000. The equalizer on the McIntosh helps with getting a better low end. I never heard the Diptyque speakers but was captured by there design. I am on the east coast…Pennsylvania..is there any audio dealer reasonably near me that markets these speakers? I would love to listen to a demonstration. The speakers demoed are out of my price league but I know there is more than one model. Thanks
So the largest Maggie dealer in the country claimed some other brand could do better at the low end than Maggies that he's never heard? How is that convincing? And can a speaker reproduce what a mic can capture of the output of a sub? I don't find that a true test of does anything sound like a sub other than a sub. It would have to be played back through a sub and hear if it is "more accurate" to what a sub sound like. Wendell was trying to explain that the laws of physics do not allow true low end, bass in that size room. The length needed for the wavelengths and the volume needed is not there for the energy to develop. He was hearing what he expected to hear in a room of that size. Being physically impossible for actual 40hz much less 20hz to develop, people think that mid bass bump/ timing reinforcement (hang) of low frequency energy,... is actually low frequencies. It's not. Then ... DSP...? Ya I'm still that guy. And have fun here in the midwest!
At 50 grand they better sound better. I am sure these greedy buggers could sell for 20 grand and still make a good profit so more people could buy them. I would be impressed if they were 10 grand but 50 grand does not impress me. You really were unprofessional and he is older and wiser than you. Your smugness' did not impress me. I did not find it funny I found it childish. Wendell speakers are less than half the price some of them are 1 /10th the price so a very unfair comparison.
What is the point? Is it to show another manufactures product can do, what yours can't. I know that wasn't the main point, but I didn't like this prank. However, you must know what competitors are doing. How do you do for less is the question?
@erwinvangrinsven9345, It was a European turntable! slate.com/technology/2015/06/coriolis-effect-proving-it-does-work-differently-in-different-hemispheres.html Hah, was wondering if someone would notice that in a different video I made. 😂 --Cynthia, The Audio Belle
I'm missing something. How is this a prank? By showing that someone made a better product than he did? That doesn't seem like a prank. That seems cruel and untasteful, even if it's true. When you make someone feel small, and they go home feeling less than, that's not a prank. That's fucked up. Unless I'm totally missing the joke here. Curious to know what I missed.
Sir, the prank and the premise was made clear by the video and description. Let me write it out in a way that may be more digestible. Wendell, in his new marketing scheme, said that "only a subwoofer sounded like a subwoofer". We found dipole, magneplanar (speaker made in the fashion of Magnepan's speakers) (same similar technology) speakers, that sounded like a subwoofer. In the moment and during the heat of Axpona, we felt it might be a fun gag to introduce Wendell (long time employed employee of Magnepan) to come listen to a competitor's speaker, that happens to also sound like a subwoofer but is not a subwoofer and ask him if it sounded like a subwoofer. You see - the joke was on him and his wording. The basic premise behind the act and video was made up by Wendell. Wendell applauded this video and absolutely loves his friends who pulled a prank on his behalf. Wendell walked away not feeling less than what he was, but more than what he was. Someone listened to Wendell. Someone took his words to heart, spread the word of Magnepan, and made a controversial video which kept Magnepan at the forefront of the media. Wendell is a marketing genius. Why would he shun a video of such great controversy? It kept Magnepan exactly where he intended.
ALL planar speakers will sound alike to a limited degree. Wendell is absolutely correct about listening material. The complex and nuanced sound of an orchestra, solo string instruments, and harmonic-rich human voices are excellent for meaningful evaluations. The loud, artificial, gimmicky techno music is useless noise... and always will be.
painfull, i mean a recording is not a replica of the real deal. so yeah it might be in the recording. or the speaker who knows. the diptique do not go to 22hz flat.. its impossible for the size. what is the excursion ???/ few mm ? maybe 4 or 5 ? so if a maggie with 1.2mm can go down to 44 flat... you need 4 times as much to go to 22hz.. but the maggies are much bigger. in the end its all about Xmax and size. a maggie can do the same if you take into account the air moved. in case of the maggies because the magnets used that means BIGGER. this does come with a benefit. less movement over a larger area has normally lower distortion. downside... they are big :) besides that most maggies are single ended.
I love how you go and shake Wendell's foundation a little with this prank. He seems a bit stock in his own way of doing things. I bet the two younger guys are more open to suggestions on how to improve Magnepan in the future
I would also add that Magnepan will be able to make payroll next year and in the years to come. I'd bet a dollar that the these Dip-Styque speakers won't even be around in a few years. If they want to stay in business they need to make a bread & butter speaker that people can afford. Otherwise they are little more than hobbyists. I think the people who want "Yo Mama" bowel-movement pumping bass in a small package will just buy subwoofers. @@Smood47
I’m sorry. Have you seen any of my other videos? The majority of my videos are about Magnepan. My husband and I own 5 pairs of Magnepan speakers. Please review the other comments. You’ll see a ton of negative reactions like yours. The comments that are not negative have the true backstory behind this prank on our adopted grandpa. If you’re more interested in making assumptions than seeking out the truth, and seeing that this video is four layers deep, I can’t help you. I’ve had so many negative comments on this video and unfortunately am so tired of it that yours happens to be the one I finally decided to respond to. Who the heck are you calling a fatty in your other comment, and why are you name calling strangers on the internet? These negative comments are laughable and really shows the lack of intelligence in some of the people who watched this video. I’m just going to be real raw here. So go watch some of my other videos where Wendell follows Jeremy and me around at Axpona, or Wendell brings concept speakers to my house, or where I interview Jim Winey- the inventor of Magnepan. Or don’t, and just keep insulting people on the internet about things you don’t know nor understand.
I thought these speakers were around $15k. Not worth $50k. I think the design is nice, but these guys are missing the point of making speakers sound I’d like real music, not overblown subwoofers that impress teenagers. My speakers are flat down to 20 Hz but you’d never know it the extension until the music calls for it.
Magnepans are fantastic speakers. Especially for the price
Honestly a pointless attack on an old man that has honestly made some great sounding speakers at ridiculously affordable prices...truly weird. I just got myself some LRS+ and they're everything I expected them to be and more. And I added a small REL to round out the bass, no big deal. They beat any box speaker anytime, and cost almost nothing compared to these that cost 50 times more.
Again, a truly unnecessary dressing down of a gentleman that has done wonders in the industry.
@dannygnaniah7552,
Not exactly sure how you are drawing that conclusion from this video. I love Wendell. He is like a dad or a grandfather to me. Hopefully some of these other videos that I link below will shed some more light on my actual real-life relationship with Wendell and Galina. But just for the record, Wendell liked this video and thought it was hilarious. He wanted me to post it. It was just a prank on a friend. :)
My interview with Jim Winey - ua-cam.com/video/I-2cdTpjEZo/v-deo.html
Wendell and Galina visit me at my home - ua-cam.com/video/MIhlNcU7vxE/v-deo.html
My interview with Mick - ua-cam.com/video/pLfTjyPomhA/v-deo.html
An interview I do with Wendell - ua-cam.com/video/4s9BqABrRv4/v-deo.html
Another interview I do with Wendell - ua-cam.com/video/QezVla7IeAA/v-deo.html
Schiit Audio/Magnepan Dipole Woofer Reaction Video - ua-cam.com/video/eDt82Ughvyw/v-deo.html&
How I met Wendell - ua-cam.com/video/tToBDcLDrNk/v-deo.html
Again, hope the above videos help shed some light on all this. Thank you for watching!
---Cynthia, The Audio Belle
I enjoyed this video, it sounded more like a little friendly competition and debate because everyone in design always operates on basic universal principles, and then their own conclusions and design philosophies to get to a certain point. I like the concept of the Diptique definitely specially, for someone that may not want to go the mile trying to match proper subwoofer with such type speakers, I personally have owned a pair of 1970s magnepans and have had the fortune of hearing later models and have Incorp them with different subwoofers outside of REL subwoofers there is another that worked very well with them and it was small KEF sub that they came out with a few years ago, but anyhow, this is all good, it is fun to watch the meeting of great minds. Great video thumbs up.
What few seam to see are the friendships and social nature of these shows among reviewers and the industry. We don’t go to see new stuff; we go to see old friends. Wendell is a legend in the audio industry. This was clearly not done to disrespect him.
Consider this an opportunity to see what happens after the show doors close and those of us fortunate to be in or connected with this industry do after hours. We drink, laugh, listen and enjoy each others company around the gear, not because of the gear.
Dissenting view here. I heard Wendell defending real music based on the sound of the concert hall. These guys only seemed interested in displaying a planar speaker to make people say, "Maggies can't do that!" So . . .?
*Yea, that girl is so annoying. Don't come to a legend with a 50k pair or speakers*
This video is unprofessional on so many levels.
Nice but way too expensive! Majority of music lovers can't afford it! Thank goodness for Magnepan!
Wendell is right on so many levels. I have some top audiophile and military DSP systems, and I would rather only process the bass if possible, rather than the entire spectrum, since the DSP affects more than just frequency response. To me, it makes a lot more sense to dial in bass for a given speaker and room via subwoofers than having to put the entire spectrum through DSP to just fix the bass. Also, the more low frequency extension you have in a given monitor, the more you are constantly translating, vibrating and otherwise affecting the rest of the audible range.
If one wanted that Magnepan sound on the cheap, LRS Plus, add on the stands, and then Danny from GR Research LRS+ mod, two REL Tx5 subs, you are looking at $3,200.00. One heck of a speaker.
Thank you! I really enjoy your channel. It would be great if you could do a review of the Eminent Technology LFT-8b or LFT-8c and compare to Magnepan.
This man knows his acoustics and music.
First of all: I don't like how Mr.Wendell was "stripped" in front of the camera, by using a comparative product that is nearly 10 time more expensive than an 3.7i. This is bad ass behavior.
Second point is: The "lack" of bass at Magnepan speakers is foundet at the used magnets, their placement (distance) to the "coil" - and last but not least by the "plugs" at the membrane. Due to the very low magnetism of the used magnets, they have to choose a relatively low distance between the magnets and the membrane to get an usable efficincy. But this would cause collision between them. Therefore Magnepan is placing "plugs" at the membran to fix them in order to avoid big membrane-movements. And as we know: To create bass (low bass), one neeed "big" movement - or very large membranes. And this is the reason, why Magnepans can produce "bass" only with their very large models as the MG20's. Sometimes it's so easy...
It was all in good fun. My God man, it was a prank played on him by friends. You need to lighten up man.
I love this video. I live 30 minutes away from Magnepan and am wondering why I’ve never owned a pair despite the fact that I love them every time I listen to them.
Found your channel because of Steve Guttenberg. It’s now my new favorite channel. Keep doing what your doing.
Here's some knowledge from an engineer who has no skin in this game. For me it's just a hobby. Like all vibrating things they are described by Newton's second law of motion, in this case as applied to forced oscillation. This is first year college physics. This equation is used for many things such as the way your car's suspension works when you hit a bump. There are three components that can be tuned, the moving mass, the damping factor, and the spring constant. In a woofer, air pressure plays a role so the ideal gas laws also come into play. That's first year college chemistry. By adjusting the three parameters you can tune a speaker to have any frequency response.
Among the worst design is the ported design. at some frequencies the air moves easily through the port. At others half an octave away it will hardly move at all. This creates a big bump in the frequency response. It's like a pipe that's been tuned in an organ or a wind instrument. It wants to vibrate at its resonant frequency and keep vibrating at that frequency even when the amplifiers says stop. We call this a high Q which stands for resonance magnification factor and poor damping. The spring constant parameter also changes with frequency due to its mechanical design. Air turbulence at the entry an exit of the port also change the damping factor and spring constant. So the frequency response is a function of how loud it is played and what frequency it is tuned to. In the 1960s they were called one note Johneys.
A great deal of work was done by Roy Allison at Acoustic Research in the 1960s and later by Floyd Toole about how bass frequencies couple to a room.
Here is a curve you may never have seen. A lot can be learned from it. It's called the Fletcher Munson curves.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
On the left vertical axis is actual loudness. On the bottom axis is frequency. Each curve represents equal perceived loudness. For example it is clear that the human ear is very sensitive to sound at around 4 to 5 khz but not so sensitive at bass frequencies. On the right side you can see that at 20 khz all of the curves rise vertically. The bottom curve is the threshold of hearing, the softest sounds you can hear. The next curve above the top curve not shown in this example is the threshold of pain where sound at that level and louder is perceived as pain. At 20 khz you see that they cross each other so that for sound to be experienced at and above that frequency it must be so loud that it is perceived as pain, not sound. So when someone tells you that you need FR above 20 khz you can tell them that they don't know what they are talking about.
Notice that at low frequencies the curves are squashed together. It has to get fairly loud before you hear any low bass at all. Then above this bottom curve each incremental change is real loudness has a disproportionately larger change in perceived loudness. The idea that one size fits all doesn't work. To keep bass in proper tonal balance with the rest of the music it has to be adjusted for each room and each recording as well as at how loud you are listening to it. It's one of many mistakes audiophiles make, one size fits all. In the demo it was clear none of the so called "experts" understood that. All means to make adjustments have been removed on the incorrect theory that the fewer elements in the signal path the better. This is also false.
" ... it has to be adjusted for each room ... In the demo it was clear none of the so called "experts" understood that." - vendors get hotel rooms of which they have little control other than hauling stuff in. And yes, many audiophiles know that the room is key and that low frequencies are room dependent and placement dependent. A show like AXPONA is about holding meet-and-greets and for industry members to interact, more than to put on perfect auditioning sessions.
@@TheDanEdwards Once you get it the way you want it for one recording how do you adjust it for another? Move the speakers around? Where is the control? There isn't any. Every recording is different.
If you're smart you use DSP room correction
Some good stuff here. I try to explain that I reject any speaker designed with ports of any kind out of hand. Because of the speed of sound/ pressure wave through air... the output from that opening is always time delayed and smears the low end. The Q can be reduced, passive radiators,... but it's delayed mid bass boom. Laws of physics.
The issue I have had with the Fletcher-Munson curve is not about human hearing being nonlinear RE amplitude, but that I doubt anyone could reproduce 20-20kHz that accurately in 1933. Or even the revised Robinson and Dadson in 1956. Even today it would be very expensive and difficult to set up a 20-20Khz dead flat system. Not only speakers/ (headphones?) of the day, but the electronics did not have that good of differential gain performance. And to output 20khz back then?
Along that line, time domain instead of frequency, the human auditory system has been proven to respond to timing differences between ears (leading edge/ high frequency detection) little as 10-20 microseconds, IOW 100khz+ detection capabilities. "The auditory system encodes the timing of peaks in basilar-membrane motion with exquisite precision, and perceptual models of binaural processing indicate that the limit of temporal resolution in humans is as little as 10-20 microseconds."
And yes drivers/ speakers coupling to the room! I consider Maggies to be more of the drivers and the room the enclosure. Or Allison AR-LST loading to the wall, compared to regular boxed speakers throwing air pressure out of the front. I was an AR rep when they introduced the AR 9 lineup with it's intentional 2pi loading of the woofers and slight horns around the domes to increase their efficiency by 3db. Now everyone want's their boxes away from the back wall?
@@glenncurry3041 the delay of a resonator based system like a port is in 10-20ms range, that is completely inaudible in listening rooms for humans. The reason and only reason ported speakers sound boomy is because the combination of more bass extension and room modes and room gain create literal 100x longer resonances and often way to much bass. You can easily measure this, in a non bass reflex speaker there is less bass and also thus less influence of room modes. Phase shifts are complete inaudible due to how our hearing works it easily takes 100+ ms to even hear the bass for our ear the group delay of a resonanter doesn’t matter in comparison (google Geddes he did the research). There is a lot to say about why one wouldn’t use bass reflex but group delay definitely is not one of them.
I agree with the wall comment. Kind of. I would love to see a planar speaker that sounds good in a recess on the wall. Media room with a large recess to the right and left so that the speakers disappear into the room and fill it with great sound.
Whenever Magnepan decides to use stronger magnetic fields and larger excursions then maggies will too do dynamics and base better. But Magnepan has refused to do that for years now and I don't know what it will take for them to change their minds. Also, the Magnepan manufacturing process is very labor intensive (the material costs are mostly quite low) and that is something which controls what they can do as far as changes and costs.
I belive the reason is most neodymium magnets are from china. Alot of driver manufactors that use them on a big scale have problems.
Magapan needs to push the envelope a bit. Apply some new ticks and add more bass
Nice you are back. Cool.
Magnepan has not made any radical technological advances for decades. It is what it is, and they have a "take it or leave it" approach to their potential customers. It could be out there pushing the envelope of speaker technology but instead decides to play it safe. Hell, most of the photos on their website are older than any potential Gen-Z customers! 😂
Actually, as a military DoD/DoE and now private sector AI developer and media engineer for decades who has created and processed petabytes of AI audio training and eval data I can tell you unequiviquolly that it is completely inaccurate to assert that orchestral sound is the most complex thing for a speaker to be able to reproduce. That is a completely fabricated statement created by a marketing team decades ago, and I so wish people would stop asserting that.
First you have to establish your metrics for input and measurement. Then you have to define your data features for testing and evaluation. Then you need to define, engineer and bound your measurement criteria and chain(s). Next, you need to acquire and/or create your data source domain for the testing. Finally, you need to setup and run your test across the various speakers/monitors, environments or whatever other domain variables you may have and evaluate your results. With something that has real world considerations like music reproduction has, you should often include human subject evaluations for tracking and comparison with the empirical data and determine the correlations that may exist for practical and other purposes. (ideally double blind, etc; but regardless).
Once you have done those things then you can begin to compare and contrast the resulting quantitative and qualitative information. With most speakers/monitors you will find that what matters much more includes other factors than music type, such as how the music is recorded (e.g. microphone types, placement/range, etc), the recording chain and the associated performance metrics (dynamic range, slew rate, etc), and the format recorded to, such as DSD 256+ vs 44.1kHz 16 bit PCM. For example Genesis’ Squonk at 96kHz 24 bits is actually much harder for most properly match-amplified speakers to track than virtually all symphonic. In fact, various prog rock and even close mic’d high grade singer songwriter done on well chosen and configured mic’s to DSD is often more difficult for many (especially monopole or cardioid pattern “box” speakers) than most orchestral. However, these are just some of many such examples, which you should test or read research papers on before you keep spreading this information. Generally, the type of speaker and its components substantially defines what is hardest for it to reproduce, assuming capable sound reproduction chain.
Finally, if you are only able to do subjective human testing, then the most important thing to consider testing on are the musical pieces, passages and styles that you and your brain are most familiar with, since that will determine the factors and extents for your evaluation and related testing. If you listen to a lot of,symphonic and know certain pieces very well, then go for that. If it’s jazz then go for those pieces. Finally, never forget that the room is the second most critical factor of dozens, since as Wendell said, the speakers have to work with the room.
hmm he also listened to the Altyvox :) i mean its a complete different price point.. even the diptique are
I have the Maggie 1.7i’s and I am very happy with them incorporated with my McIntosh ma12000. The equalizer on the McIntosh helps with getting a better low end. I never heard the Diptyque speakers but was captured by there design.
I am on the east coast…Pennsylvania..is there any audio dealer reasonably near me that markets these speakers?
I would love to listen to a demonstration.
The speakers demoed are out of my price league but I know there is more than one model.
Thanks
So the largest Maggie dealer in the country claimed some other brand could do better at the low end than Maggies that he's never heard? How is that convincing?
And can a speaker reproduce what a mic can capture of the output of a sub? I don't find that a true test of does anything sound like a sub other than a sub. It would have to be played back through a sub and hear if it is "more accurate" to what a sub sound like.
Wendell was trying to explain that the laws of physics do not allow true low end, bass in that size room. The length needed for the wavelengths and the volume needed is not there for the energy to develop. He was hearing what he expected to hear in a room of that size. Being physically impossible for actual 40hz much less 20hz to develop, people think that mid bass bump/ timing reinforcement (hang) of low frequency energy,... is actually low frequencies. It's not.
Then ... DSP...?
Ya I'm still that guy. And have fun here in the midwest!
It don’t matter! I can’t afford the Dip..whatever’s😂 I’ll keep my LRS +’s and REL subs and be happy forever❤👍
I'd rather have the 2.7x with an excellent pair of subs. Less than half the price.
At 50 grand they better sound better. I am sure these greedy buggers could sell for 20 grand and still make a good profit so more people could buy them. I would be impressed if they were 10 grand but 50 grand does not impress me. You really were unprofessional and he is older and wiser than you. Your smugness' did not impress me. I did not find it funny I found it childish. Wendell speakers are less than half the price some of them are 1 /10th the price so a very unfair comparison.
What is the point? Is it to show another manufactures product can do, what yours can't. I know that wasn't the main point, but I didn't like this prank. However, you must know what competitors are doing. How do you do for less is the question?
$50,000 you can definitely keep them😢
It's a lot of money to spend just to make more bass in my opinion
Well the diptyque is way more expencive. Magnepan could just make a model with neodymium magnets, then it would be fair.
There is more than one model… reasonably priced.
@@frankfanucci297 Do that change that this is not ?.
What’s the bass track in the demo
@anandshah71,
It's Hollow (16-Bit Remix) - Björk.
---Cynthia, The Audio Belle
Why would he know better? He just makes speakers for the last 50 years...
Play stupid games, win stupid prices...
Why is the turntable spinning backwards? Timetravel❓
@erwinvangrinsven9345,
It was a European turntable!
slate.com/technology/2015/06/coriolis-effect-proving-it-does-work-differently-in-different-hemispheres.html
Hah, was wondering if someone would notice that in a different video I made. 😂
--Cynthia, The Audio Belle
@@TheAudioBelle science‼️
And bad geography 😃
🤣
Magnepan should make headphones too not just speakers.
I'm missing something. How is this a prank? By showing that someone made a better product than he did? That doesn't seem like a prank. That seems cruel and untasteful, even if it's true. When you make someone feel small, and they go home feeling less than, that's not a prank. That's fucked up. Unless I'm totally missing the joke here. Curious to know what I missed.
Sir, the prank and the premise was made clear by the video and description. Let me write it out in a way that may be more digestible. Wendell, in his new marketing scheme, said that "only a subwoofer sounded like a subwoofer". We found dipole, magneplanar (speaker made in the fashion of Magnepan's speakers) (same similar technology) speakers, that sounded like a subwoofer. In the moment and during the heat of Axpona, we felt it might be a fun gag to introduce Wendell (long time employed employee of Magnepan) to come listen to a competitor's speaker, that happens to also sound like a subwoofer but is not a subwoofer and ask him if it sounded like a subwoofer. You see - the joke was on him and his wording. The basic premise behind the act and video was made up by Wendell. Wendell applauded this video and absolutely loves his friends who pulled a prank on his behalf. Wendell walked away not feeling less than what he was, but more than what he was. Someone listened to Wendell. Someone took his words to heart, spread the word of Magnepan, and made a controversial video which kept Magnepan at the forefront of the media. Wendell is a marketing genius. Why would he shun a video of such great controversy? It kept Magnepan exactly where he intended.
VERY funny. Well done. 😂
ALL planar speakers will sound alike to a limited degree. Wendell is absolutely correct about listening material.
The complex and nuanced sound of an orchestra, solo string instruments, and harmonic-rich human voices are excellent for meaningful evaluations.
The loud, artificial, gimmicky techno music is useless noise... and always will be.
painfull, i mean a recording is not a replica of the real deal. so yeah it might be in the recording. or the speaker who knows. the diptique do not go to 22hz flat.. its impossible for the size. what is the excursion ???/ few mm ? maybe 4 or 5 ? so if a maggie with 1.2mm can go down to 44 flat... you need 4 times as much to go to 22hz.. but the maggies are much bigger.
in the end its all about Xmax and size. a maggie can do the same if you take into account the air moved. in case of the maggies because the magnets used that means BIGGER. this does come with a benefit. less movement over a larger area has normally lower distortion. downside... they are big :) besides that most maggies are single ended.
I love how you go and shake Wendell's foundation a little with this prank. He seems a bit stock in his own way of doing things. I bet the two younger guys are more open to suggestions on how to improve Magnepan in the future
@jwester7009,
It was too much fun to mess with him. 😅
--Cynthia, The Audio Belle
Your diptyque link goes to a candle store.
@Smood47,
LOL. Thank you for the heads up!
--Cynthia, The Audio Belle
@@TheAudioBelle I'm surprised wendall didnt just say guys these speakers cost 2x my competing model.
I would also add that Magnepan will be able to make payroll next year and in the years to come. I'd bet a dollar that the these Dip-Styque speakers won't even be around in a few years. If they want to stay in business they need to make a bread & butter speaker that people can afford. Otherwise they are little more than hobbyists. I think the people who want "Yo Mama" bowel-movement pumping bass in a small package will just buy subwoofers. @@Smood47
This video is disgraceful. If Magnapan isn’t your choice , ok. But to stage a fight, what has this women done for audiophiles in the past 60 years?
I’m sorry. Have you seen any of my other videos? The majority of my videos are about Magnepan. My husband and I own 5 pairs of Magnepan speakers. Please review the other comments. You’ll see a ton of negative reactions like yours. The comments that are not negative have the true backstory behind this prank on our adopted grandpa. If you’re more interested in making assumptions than seeking out the truth, and seeing that this video is four layers deep, I can’t help you. I’ve had so many negative comments on this video and unfortunately am so tired of it that yours happens to be the one I finally decided to respond to. Who the heck are you calling a fatty in your other comment, and why are you name calling strangers on the internet? These negative comments are laughable and really shows the lack of intelligence in some of the people who watched this video. I’m just going to be real raw here. So go watch some of my other videos where Wendell follows Jeremy and me around at Axpona, or Wendell brings concept speakers to my house, or where I interview Jim Winey- the inventor of Magnepan. Or don’t, and just keep insulting people on the internet about things you don’t know nor understand.
50.000 $ ???
I thought these speakers were around $15k. Not worth $50k. I think the design is nice, but these guys are missing the point of making speakers sound I’d like real music, not overblown subwoofers that impress teenagers. My speakers are flat down to 20 Hz but you’d never know it the extension until the music calls for it.
🤔🤔
“I didn’t need to hear them to know what they sound like”. I think that’s arrogance, and ignorance
I think he meant they're going to sound like quasi-ribbon planar speakers.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Childish.
Wendall got owned and hes running fast and going nowhere