Left To Ourselves We Would Never Seek God?
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- Jordan Hatfield and Warren McGrew ( @IdolKiller ) answer a common Calvinist objection - "left to ourselves, we would never choose God."
Watch Warren's testimony of leaving Calvinism here: www.youtube.co...
Watch more from Jordan on the topic of Calvinism:
Is Calvinism Biblical with Leighton Flowers / Soteriology 101: • Part 1: Is Calvinism B...
Jordan Hatfield: Calvinism Is Not True: • Calvinism Is Not True
Does Romans 9 Teach Calvinism?: • Non-Calvinist Explanat...
Does Ephesians 1:4 Teach Calvinism?: • Is Calvinism Biblical?...
Who Are God's Sheep? Responding To John Piper and Calvinism: • Responding To John Pip...
Calvinism Debate: Jordan Has A Friendly Debate With A Calvinist • Is Calvinism True And ...
A Critical Error In Calvinism Part 1: • Union With Christ - A ...
A Critical Error In Calvinism Part 2: • Union With Christ - A ...
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I agree, the bottom line is it is true' left to ourselves we would never choose God. But the good news is we are not alone. God loves us and is drawing all to Himself.
I agree with this assessment. Calvinists uses when all the time to suggest that we have total and ability to come it's not a lack of ability it's a total focus on everything that's not God that can recognize God when we see him irresistible Grace thing because well clearly God has to do something else besides what he's Christ on the cross and resurrection. Really that was all the grace that was needed
if you say so, he has a funny way of doing that, almost like he is imaginary.
John 6:37-39, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
John 17:2-“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”
John 17:9-“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”
It's a blessing to have the true and inspiring word of God as we read it in Galatians 1:15. God has revealed himself to us in word and spirit. God is capable of Jeremiah 1:5.
Indeed, thank God that He didn't leave us to ourselves!
Calvinists try to say that we can't seek God on our own (without being born again first) but what about Cornelius in the book of Acts? He was honoring God and giving alms to the poor before he was ever born again?
What about Zacchaeus who climbed up in the tree and sought to see Jesus before he was ever born again?
it's interesting that reformers nvr ever use romans 1 and 2 to defend their doctrine. maybe because it completely contradicts thier doctrine
we atheists love it when you argue doctrine, whenever you do an angel turns queer.
@HarryNicNicholas atheist don't exist only fools who suppress the truth and when you do your in danger of reprobation. romans 1
They do! The see that man BECAME USELSS and just inject that man was born that way. Chapters 2 and all the way through 7, despite being addressed you I, WE, US, YOU, in the present tense is not speaking to the audience, the the rest of the world, the the audience’s life before salvation.
All isms find a way to MAKE contradicting passages fit.
We are not left to ourselves.
It's a blessing to have the true and inspiring word of God where we read that God is our "all in all"
Calvinism teaches that God is
" all in all" .
God is sovereign, almighty , Lord and king of kings
1 Corinthians 15:28
[28]When [r]all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that [s]God may be all in all.
Cross-references
[r]: Phil 3:21
[s]: 1 Cor 3:23; 1 Cor 11:3
(ESV)
At ~6:00. My ‘proud Calvinist’ Bible study leader has said this exact thing. “God, before the foundation of the world, was thinking of me.” How man-centered is that?!
I do not doubt for one second that God is omniscient but I do not think Scripture tells us He knew us from before creating the world.
Nice video brother!
What's the difference between circumcised flesh and uncircumcised flesh?
What a blessing to have the true and inspiring word of God as we read it in Colossians 2:13 . We see uncircumcision of the flesh, God makes alive in Christ.
Colossians 2:13
[13] [a] And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God [b] made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Cross-references
[a]: Eph 2:1
[b]: Eph 2:5
(ESV)
3:34 Even if it were a Deistisc framework, people would still seek their maker. People seek "the Truth" all the time.
Have you done a study on Phil 3 "having suffered the loss of all things that I may gain Christ and be found in him"? I'm working to understand this one and the cost of knowing Jesus.
“Spagettifies” lol
I definitely need to add this to my vocabulary. 👍
There’s none that seek after God. That’s why when God borns us again we are commanded to seek Him: Colossians 3:1-“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God in heavenly places.”
Well said, gentlemen.
I agree with some church fathers that the incarnation was always God's plan, because it would have been necessary to lead to our greater union with Him, even had the fall and human sin never occurred. I believe that this is the sense in which Paul speaks of God's plan from before the creation of the world. God did not will human sin and suffering, but foreknowing it, he willed to allow sin, because without free will we are not the type of beings that He willed to create, which is beings free to voluntarily love Him and persevere in the Good. God could have created robots, but He wanted to create the unique soul body composite that is the human being.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the *Word was God.*
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 *In him was life; and the life was the light of men.*
5 And the *light shineth in darkness;* and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 ¶There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, *to bear witness of the Light,* that *all men* through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 *That was the true Light,* which *lighteth every man that cometh into the world.*
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 *And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.*
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Luke 10:21 KJV - In that hour Jesus *rejoiced in spirit,* and said, *I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.*
Matthew 18:3 KJV - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and *become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.*
John 5:24 ¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that *heareth my word,* and *believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,* and *shall not come into condemnation;* but *is passed from death unto life.*
5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, AND NOW IS, when THE DEAD SHALL HEAR the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear SHALL LIVE.
"And now is": This is a good 5-6 chapters before the raising from the dead of Lazarus. Yet _spiritually dead people_ were _already_ hearing the spiritual voice of Jesus (along with His physical voice, at that time), being convicted by the Holy Spirit, and they who heard, lived spiritually, through the new birth, just like 5:24, the prior verse, tells us.
This is one of those pairs of verses, where the second verse elaborates on the first. So the dead can hear (including Lazarus), when it is the Son of God who speaks to them.
The "t" in t.u.l.i.p or
Total Depravity is man centered?
Give your head a shake
Grace or God comes frist and than faith according to the Bible. Ephesians 2:8 Galatians 1:15; Jeremiah 1:5
Calvinists say they were chosen from eternity past. According to the following verses, I would ask, how is it you were chosen in eternity past, you were then alienated from Christ and then and then put back in Christ. Makes no sense whatsoever.
Ephesians 2:12-13
[12] remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [13] But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
We are never "left to ourselves>"
Is there any way I can contact you Jordan?
Look, these are fine discussions to have, but it avoids THE biggest issue: soteriology. Either one is defending eternal torment (or annihilation to oblivion) or they’re not. Quibbling over the mechanics of a horrible eternal destiny is just making so much noise. We need to address salvific and damnific ends of people when they die. The “how” of the either/or fate of the saved vs the unsaved is a distraction that ultimately doesn’t engage the ontology of God in respect to His creation.
There are none among the sons of men who have insight and seek after God.
Psalm 14 refutes Total Depravity. Yet if it taught as the Calvinist claims, then we shouldn't listen to the Calvinist as they wouldn't have insight or seek after God.
@@IdolKiller
We've already been through this. Your undercutting defeater is easily defeated - it's a dumb argument.
So, when the Psalms list twice that there are none among the sons of men who seek after God, your position is that there are many among the sons of men who seek after God.
@@lawrencestanley8989 we've demonstrated you don't understand the defeater, but you've yet to refute it
@@IdolKiller
Believe what you will, that's between you and God - the argument has been defeated; it's done .
@@lawrencestanley8989 denial isn't a river in Egypt.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Isn't that Jesus talking to the 12, not crowds of followers? And even if not, does 'chosen' here mean elected or saved, or chosen for the purpose of going out to found the Church and spread the Gospel? Without the lens of Calvinism, that isn't found in this verse, but must be read into it, presupposed. That's not proper exegesis, right? And their 'fruit' would remain...the Church! The spreading of the Gospel to all nations. (Judas was also drawn [John 6] by the Father, but he wasn't a believer, so was not saved. Drawn, or chosen, does not = salvation.)
It's a nonsensical question from the Calvinist that demands "What does that even mean?" in response
8:30 in Calvinism, we're saved by election. The whole crucifixion and resurrection is just extra drama.
Its a false decitful question created to push an agenda of calvinism .
I don't think it is, but I do think these guys answered it in a way to push an agenda against Calvinism.
If God left us alone none of us would seek after him. The Calvinist isn't saying if God gave up on us and left us with no proof of his existence no one would seek after God, because of course no one would even be able to seek for God at that point because they wouldn't even know there was a God. Instead what the Calvinist is trying to prove by this question is that without the spirit of God drawing us to him no one would ever choose to follow him at all.
To think that God is automatically trying to draw everyone to him is unbiblical because it's clear from the Old Testament that there were many people God didn't even try to draw to himself.
Every time I see people trying to debunk Calvinism they always seem to either dodge the question by twisting the words or concepts of what the other side is saying, or they misrepresent what the other side believes by confusing Hyper-Calvinism's beliefs with that of traditional Calvinism.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot will the things that ye would.
A Calvinist told me that they have to instruct new Believers with Scripture on how they got saved by the Father in eternity past because they're mistakenly thinking they believed the Gospel on their own. Because they're already saved before hearing the Christless Gospel of Calvin, there's no harm, but the unbeliever is hearing a false Gospel, does not have the power of the holy Spirit within, and so cannot live the overcoming life, grows disillusioned and deconstructs.
i.e., they're telling new believers that the Gospel has no power. Disgusting.
Romans 8:7 Because the thinking of the flesh is an enemy against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither does it have the ability to
There is none who understands, none who seeks God Rom 3:10-11 indicating a dead, depraved nature unable to respond on its own without effectual grace. Of course total inability, effectual grace is in scripture which can either be believed or trampled.
The text you cited out of context doesn't teach Total Depravity when considered in context.
Out of context if you impose semi pelagian libertarian freewill ability. I understand, keep stoking semi pelagian powers, its your only hope. But Scripture concludes there is no one who seeks after God. They must be drawn, made alive Eph 2:1. There must be divine intervention in the inner man first or it is semi pelagianism.
@@josephalvinalmedatv8 Ephesians 2 also refutes Total Depravity
@@IdolKiller Scripture refutes self determining libertarian freewill/ semi pelagianism. Not taught anywhere in scripture except the human brain. Rubbish pagan philosophical lense.
@@josephalvinalmedatv8 I have stated this elsewhere, but this is precisely why Dr. White will not debate McGrew. Every time that he is placed into a position of explaining why he believes the exact opposite of what the text clearly says, he resorts to ad hominem and subterfuge.
In my flesh dwells every good thing.
What?
Philosophy and vain deceit = Calvinism
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Romans 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Romans 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Romans 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Romans 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Romans 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Thank the Lord God for preachers that proclaim His written word.
Ro 10:14,15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
@@aworkman thank God for the Holy Spirit that produces faith because I can’t produce it of my flesh
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
But what does 'none righteous' here mean? Saved, I would take it. Holy, perfect. Or does the Bible contradict itself when it says: "Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him." (Luke 2:25 ESV). And what about Acts 10:22: "And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man," (ESV)? Upright, God-fearing. David was also "a man after God's own heart." Interesting. There must be a harmonization between verses like these and Romans 3. First, Paul is quoting from the Psalms to prove a point. You do not base doctrine purely on the Psalms. Also note the words he is quoting from that Psalm! "All have turned aside; together they have become worthless..." They have "TURNED ASIDE", not been born that way. They have "BECOME worthless", not been born what way or made that way. They chose. They turned, they became. This obviously does not prove reprobation from before birth. IF they're born dead, they cannot turn or become more dead. Dead means dead my Calvinists friends tell me. Like Lazarus. So what is this becoming, or turning? Perhaps the entire chapter must be taken into the context here in Romans 3. :)
@@Myrdden71 it means none are right.
Not understanding . Not seek after God. Turned away and worthless.
@@aletheia8054
Turned away from what?
Became worthless....
... What were they before they became worthless?
Tremendous claims are made by both sides of the argument. Both sides MUST support their claims from scripture…..only. Please exegete the whole counsel of God and teach us what Truth is. Stop appealing to our emotions or understanding.
Exegete scripture. Your doctrine of reprobation is fundamentally flawed.
I would be happy to explain this point live on your pod cast. If I’m wrong, then I would certainly be blessed by the discourse and repent of my error. Would you please explore the scriptures with me this controversial question?
another channel designed to reassure christians they aren't being silly. if god is personal what do you need apologists for?
Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?
And yet doesn't Acts call Cornelius a righteous man, before he knew anything about Christ, before Peter was chosen by God to be sent to him? Cherry-picking verses is not a good way to found a doctrine (paraphrased from A.W. Tozer). The heart is wicked, yes. Yet David was 'a man after God's own heart'. So let's take everything in proper perspective. :)
@@Myrdden71 do you think one of the verses is a lie?
@@aletheia8054 Wow, totally did not deal with the issue. That's like me asking you if the verses I put in were lies. Empty rhetorical response, not a solution to the dilemna of verses seemingly at odds with each other. I think all the verses are true, but what are they truly saying? If they seemingly disagree, then we must be misinterpreting one, or both. So context matters, as does understandability. We can understand the complex by the simple, or the simple by the complex; the easy to understand by the more difficult, or vice versa. One should always seeks to understand the less obvious by the most obvious. I think the verses about Simeon, Cornelius, and David are pretty simple, no great theological point being made in what the Bible says about them. So our understanding of Romans 3 must need to be re-examined. That's just logical and exegetical, yes? Time for bed, good night and God bless!
@@Myrdden71 there’s no dilemma. All men are abominable and drink iniquity like water. Same for Cornelius.
Children of God understand that .
@@Myrdden71 there’s no dilemma. Humans are filthy and abominable and they drink iniquity like water. That includes Cornelius.
Children of God understand .
When we say: “Left to ourselves” we saying “Without God at work WITHIN US”. When the Spirit is not at work in our hearts we would never choose God.
The inability of Warren to accurately represent the argument is hilarious. Obviously, God gives many EXTERNAL evidences and proofs. Men reject those evidences and proofs because they hate what they show, ie their dependence on and obligation to God.
Brenton. God will punish you severely for seeking to corrupt his Word and lead people astray. Please repent.
Are you familiar with the work On the Incarnation by Saint Athanasius the Great? I think the best answer to the "left to ourselves" "issue" is found there.
@@vitaignis5594 - I’ve read portions of “On the Incarnation”, but not all of it. What portion do you think applies here?
@@brentonstanfield5198 honestly the whole book is very relevant to the discussion in my opinion but these sections come into mind especially.
4. You are wondering, perhaps, for what possible reason, having proposed to speak of the Incarnation of the Word, we are at present treating of the origin of mankind. But this, too, properly belongs to the aim of our treatise. 2. For in speaking of the appearance of the Saviour among us, we must needs speak also of the origin of men, that you may know that the reason of His coming down was because of us, and that our transgression called forth the loving-kindness of the Word, that the Lord should both make haste to help us and appear among men. 3. For of His becoming Incarnate we were the object, and for our salvation He dealt so lovingly as to appear and be born even in a human body. 4. Thus, then, God has made man, and willed that he should abide in incorruption; but men, having despised and rejected the contemplation of God, and devised and contrived evil for themselves (as was said in the former treatise), received the condemnation of death with which they had been threatened; and from thenceforth no longer remained as they were made, but were being corrupted according to their devices; and death had the mastery over them as king. Romans 5:14 For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. 5. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who IS, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption. 6. For man is by nature mortal, inasmuch as he is made out of what is not; but by reason of his likeness to Him that is (and if he still preserved this likeness by keeping Him in his knowledge) he would stay his natural corruption, and remain incorrupt; as Wisdom Wisdom 6:18 says: The taking heed to His laws is the assurance of immortality; but being incorrupt, he would live henceforth as God, to which I suppose the divine Scripture refers, when it says: I have said you are gods, and you are all sons of the most Highest; but you die like men, and fall as one of the princes.
6. The human race then was wasting, God's image was being effaced, and His work ruined. Either, then, God must forego His spoken word by which man had incurred ruin; or that which had shared in the being of the Word must sink back again into destruction, in which case God's design would be defeated. What then? Was God's goodness to suffer this? But if so, why had man been made? It could have been weakness, not goodness on God's part. For this cause, then, death having gained upon men, and corruption abiding upon them, the race of man was perishing; the rational man made in God's image was disappearing, and the handiwork of God was in process of dissolution. 2. For death, as I said above, gained from that time forth a legal Genesis 2:15 hold over us, and it was impossible to evade the law, since it had been laid down by God because of the transgression, and the result was in truth at once monstrous and unseemly. 3. For it were monstrous, firstly, that God, having spoken, should prove false - that, when once He had ordained that man, if he transgressed the commandment, should die the death, after the transgression man should not die, but God's word should be broken. For God would not be true, if, when He had said we should die, man died not. 4. Again, it were unseemly that creatures once made rational, and having partaken of the Word, should go to ruin, and turn again toward non-existence by the way of corruption. 5. For it were not worthy of God's goodness that the things He had made should waste away, because of the deceit practised on men by the devil. 6. Especially it was unseemly to the last degree that God's handicraft among men should be done away, either because of their own carelessness, or because of the deceitfulness of evil spirits.
7. So, as the rational creatures were wasting and such works in course of ruin, what was God in His goodness to do? Suffer corruption to prevail against them and death to hold them fast? And where were the profit of their having been made, to begin with? For better were they not made, than once made, left to neglect and ruin. 8. For neglect reveals weakness, and not goodness on God's part - if, that is, He allows His own work to be ruined when once He had made it - more so than if He had never made man at all. 9. For if He had not made them, none could impute weakness; but once He had made them, and created them out of nothing, it were most monstrous for the work to be ruined, and that before the eyes of the Maker. 10. It was, then, out of the question to leave men to the current of corruption; because this would be unseemly, and unworthy of God's goodness.
12.For whereas the grace of the Divine Image was in itself sufficient to make known God the Word, and through Him the Father; still God, knowing the weakness of men, made provision even for their carelessness: so that if they cared not to know God of themselves, they might be enabled through the works of creation to avoid ignorance of the Maker. 2. But since men's carelessness, little by little, descends to lower things, God made provision, once more, even for this weakness of theirs, by sending a law, and prophets, men such as they knew, so that even if they were not ready to look up to heaven and know their Creator, they might have their instruction from those near at hand. For men are able to learn from men more directly about higher things. 3. So it was open to them, by looking into the height of heaven, and perceiving the harmony of creation, to know its Ruler, the Word of the Father, Who, by His own providence over all things makes known the Father to all, and to this end moves all things, that through Him all may know God. 4. Or, if this were too much for them, it was possible for them to meet at least the holy men, and through them to learn of God, the Maker of all things, the Father of Christ; and that the worship of idols is godlessness, and full of all impiety. 5. Or it was open to them, by knowing the law even, to cease from all lawlessness and live a virtuous life. For neither was the law for the Jews alone, nor were the Prophets sent for them only, but, though sent to the Jews and persecuted by the Jews, they were for all the world a holy school of the knowledge of God and the conduct of the soul. 6. God's goodness then and loving-kindness being so great - men nevertheless, overcome by the pleasures of the moment and by the illusions and deceits sent by demons, did not raise their heads toward the truth, but loaded themselves the more with evils and sins, so as no longer to seem rational, but from their ways to be reckoned void of reason.