13 Ways the Novus Ordo could (licitly) be more like the Traditional Latin Mass
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
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In this video, we will examine the necessity for the Novus Ordo to embody the Roman Rite historical tradition as well as consider 13 ways this could be done. See the ideas in this video in a blog post on Joy in Truth here: joyintruth.com/old-mass-new-m...
This is great! Also a future priest here, hopefully. I hope to have very reverent NO Masses filled with Latin and Gregorian chant and other traditional customs (ad orientem, etc.). I have a lot of hope even though things have been rough.
P.S.: It's TraditionIS Custodes, just so you know (genitive singular, not nominative plural).
Future priest here (God willing).
I'm very keen to have our masses closer to what VII actually recommends, make it more reverend and do my part in bringing the new rite to a more complete state.
Although, thinking that, I came to the conclusion that this would actually turn the Novus ordo into the VO, but in vernacular languages, which is also likely to have been Pope Benedict XVI's thought as you pointed (I didn't know that btw, thank you). Food for thoughts !
Good luck, future Father. i wish you well.
Great video! Subbed
When I lived in my old house, my family often went to St. Joseph's (which now has a different name that I'm forgetting at the moment) and now we go to Christ the King, and almost everything you mentioned is or was done by one or both of those parishes during the Novus Ordo. More often than not, it was during the Latin Novus Ordo, but it's still nice, for instance, to pray the Kyrie in Greek at Christ the King, to have the incense at St. Joseph's, and that both parishes incorporated kneeling rails (though at Christ the King, they have just one kneeler, but it's still better than nothing).
I was curious if you were considering presenting these ideas to the higher-ups in the Church to possibly make a radical change in the common practice of the Novus Order, as videos like this should have way more views than they do. Best of wishes going forward, and as far as suggestions for the channel, I would like to see an alternate version of this video that talks about the best changes you've seen in the modern Mass, because nowadays, so many people who are used to the Traditional Latin Mass don't have much nice to say about Novus Ordo, and I'd like to see more instances (like the missals) where you say that the Church made the right call.
I'm confused, what is an entrance antiphon? Is it before or during the entrance procession?
Incredible 😲
I wish I had come across this video sooner, when it first came out in Jan 2022, after moving to Hou, Texas area a few months before. Question - does chanting the first part of the Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer Number One) count as inserting TLM practice in a NO mass? Some of the priests will change the tone of their voice at: "Therefore, Lord, we pray:..." and "Be pleased, O God, we pray.." I never encountered this in my adult life in the Northeast or in the Philippines; and I was shocked when I first experienced this.
The one lung two lung analogy was for eastern CATHOLIC churches, not the orthodox.
The irony remains that as the producers of the NOM were busy fashioning their phoney service in order to celebrate and entertain the modern man, God is busy taking them to their root (TLM)such that the influx of the youth to the TLM is alarmingly great and surprising some clergy men. From the rising of the sun to its setting, I will gather my people, says the Lord.
While watching one of your videos I noticed pictures of women Priests celebrating the Eucharist. Are you an Anglican/Episcopal claiming to be a Roman, that is, authentic Catholic? I know some Anglican/Episcopal priests who stand firm in the claim that they are catholic. Please clarify !! Also, either way, nicely put together and I appreciate the work you have done.
I believe that picture was posted in order to reference Protestant views...or else it was a mistake - the concept of women "priests" is an abomination.
I appreciate your perspective. I tend to favor the ecumenical turn, and I like the NABRE's critical bent in the footnotes, but it's good to hear your rationale as well, and it's worth considering.
I've never been to a traditional Mass, but I want to go.
That said, I keep thinking you're saying "the lady" since you say "laity" quickly, and finish it it my head "doth protest too much."
Checkout the online TLM first to get the feeling, I like this one...ua-cam.com/video/T9NEBo4ZqaM/v-deo.html, as they provide the English translation of the prayers, easy to follow.
Gbu
With the changes that took place in 2011 where Novus Ordo Mass prayers, text of Gloria, Santus, Memorial Acclamation was changed to bring things closer to what the Latin texts says the number of Catholics who hate the new texts and would return to the previous texts in a snap of a finger. The ideal of making Novus Ordo more like Traditional Latin Mass and Traditional Latin more Novus Ordo will never work. And, there are already Novus Ordo masses who already sing both Latin and English and have done so for many years. There are also Catholic churches if. The priest is to face east during Mass they already do that facing the people. Also, in the State of Pennyslvania most Catholic churches use organ not guitar for Mass and has been that way for years if, not always been that way. Many of these same churches sing only Traditional hymn tunes and the choirs sing music from various church eras. We don't want all Latin we love the Novus Ordo Mass with English. We love to sing and love to participate at mass. So, one's who want all Latin stay out of our churches we don't plan to change our worship style.
i especially like it when during the mass the priest is not racing against time but allowing for more time to pray and reflect. simply put, SILENCE! just earlier i attended mass where there were no instruments used but only voice.
edit: yes, instruments are good too. nothing wrong with them. organ is the best.
Another thing people could do is actually do not just the Entrance antiphon, but also the Offertory and Communion antiphon! These are in the GIRM rubrics but no parishes do them. I should also note that there are definitely priests that want to do this kind of thing, but for pastoral reasons they don't because they know it would upset people and stuff. The laypeople are usually more of the problem than the priests, I think.
Thank you for your comment. Respectfully, I think being motivated by the fear of upsetting what is almost certainly a minority of parishioners is not masculine or befitting a pastor of Christ's Church.
@@historiaecclesiastica I don't think you understand. I used to think that if I was a priest, I could just easily start doing a bunch of traditional things and turn average Novus Ordos into quasi-TLMs in the blink of an eye. That's now how it works though, generally. A priest is first and foremost a pastor, and pastoral concern must play a role. Also, I wouldn't call the number of parishioners who don't care for traditional things a "minority." For instance, at my parish there are certainly plenty of people that would like a more traditional NO Mass (e.g., ad orientem, Latin, Gregorian Chant, etc.). However, many people would get upset (at least that's what my pastor says and I trust him). A good pastor has to balance being faithful to tradition in his liturgy and also not shocking people by sudden changes. Changes must be gradual. And this priest is very traditional (we have an EF at our parish actually, in addition to NOs). My goal is to eventually get a Latin NO at our parish, or at least as close to that as we can (I'm only 16 though and I'll leave for seminary in 2 years). My pastor is totally awesome and loving and traditional and all that, and he has done so much to make our NOs beautiful. I am very liturgically skilled and I am working with him on ways we could introduce the different antiphons and such. He wants to do ad orientem worship and that kind of thing, but he knows that many people will get upset, and if you are a pastor you have to be tactful about this kind of thing. It isn't "unmasculine" to be pastoral. This issue is more complicated that many people think at first, and it's not like the priest is in full control either, as many changes have to have the bishop's approval first.
NOM is 100% licit, maybe the question "more" is about the validity...another point...the institution narrative in vernacular "pro multis" should be translated "for many", in my Indonesian language, translated "for all", so the best way is to keep it in latin !
Gbu
How could that ever be it would never be the ROMAN RITE it's the NOVUS. ORDO
Making novus ordo more like tlm would only lead faithful to love the tradition more, the chant, reverence, etc. and in turn the faithful would seek the tlm and have this question pressing on them that cannot be answered….. then why the changes after v2? One would compare the most reverent novus ordo and tlm and see the novus ordo is lacking and the tlm is superior and never should have been touched. In my opinion they wanted the novus ordo as is so they can promote a different theology, move away from mass as propitiatory sacrifice to communal meal.
You neglect the fact that there are still good aspects of the NO.
Can someone explain to me the purpose of ad orientum. Why is facing east so important? I would think that what's important is facing the sacrafice of the mass. That what's important is the reverance toward the eucharist, not a direction.
I feel like if TLM only people brought their talents and reverance to the novus ordo, we'd have a much more beautiful rite. We have an organ in my parish but only 2 people can play and they aren't very good at it. If we had the talents of the TLM come.to novus ordo, we'd have more beautiful liturgies.
First let me say I enjoyed this video and your channel is very good, very thoughtful and high quality in presentation. But being thoughtful, I have thoughts in return.
Overall I would say this - why? Is there inherent merit in making the 2002 missal more like the 1962 missal? For some of these changes like using more Latin, you refer to quotes from popes where they explicitly say to use more Latin. So that makes sense! Doing the entrance antiphon and the responsorial psalm intended for the day also makes sense, no extraordinary ministers, ad orientem etc. is all logical.
But then there are others like Last Gospel. As you say, this was added to combat a heresy 800 years ago, and it has long since served it's purpose. The people that believe this heresy (that Christ did not come in the flesh) are not attending Catholic mass anymore, so The Last Gospel is no longer reaching them like 800 years ago when everyone attended mass. So I'm left scratching my head wondering specifically why it would be added back in. What's the purpose? Saying it's beautiful is not enough, because most of Scripture is beautiful.
One point that bothered me was prayers at the foot of the altar, because I can see fully why this change was made, and there is beauty in how it is done now. As an altar boy, I remember praying with the priest before procession and that being very holy moment, even if technically it wasn't part of mass. Praying privately with the servers is a wonderful way to do the psalm.
The Penitential Rite. In the Confiteor, which is done at every venacular mass I can remember across the last 10 years at least, Mary is named explicity and "all the angels and saints" are called upon. So what would be the point of the priest first calling upon Mary again and some others by name, before the Confiteor? It would be one thing if this was allowed in the rubrics, but here the priest would actually be twisting the purpose of his speaking there - before the Penintential Rite he's just supposed to greet the congregation and talk about that day's mass.
You also mention here that this change successfully made a positive impact on Protestant churches. That's a great thing, a great fruit of V2! Orthodox often appreciate the 2002 missal as well because of some of the medieval traditions being removed.
Anyway, I am confused by what you said about the prayers over the offerings. The rubrics of the 2002 missal have a blessing over the offertory at the exact time you're talking about (right after the Prayer of the Faithful) and the only meaningful difference I can see in the text here is that certain saints are not named. But then they are named later on in the Roman Canon. So what's the problem here? It confuses me how this became a controversy.
Again thank you for doing the channel and keep up the great work.
The Masses broadcast by EWTN follow all these 13 points
The Entrance Antiphon is an antiphon, which means it has psalm verses. Done correctly, there is no need for a hymn. Same thing at the Communion. As we do for the Responsorial Psalm.
I think we should be wary not to attribute everything to the Holy Spirit. There are errors in the Church that are merely man-made. For example, if by tomorrow the Pope comes up with the issue of woman ordination(God forbid), shall we ascribe it to the Holy Spirit? No, not at all. The Holy Spirit is not behind the birth of the the Novus Ordo service. In short, it is a mockery/mimickery of our faith and worship. I think this was what Fulton Sheen saw when he prophesied about 'The Ape of the Church.' It is the weeds that grow among the wheat such that many cannot distinguish one from the other.
A comment on the criticism of our current Pope's constant dialogues with other denominations. (Time code: 4:25.) "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?" - Mt 18:12
If you are a Traditional Catholic in unity with the One True Church, then you are not a lost sheep and any estrangement you may feel is self imposed.
I want to make it clear that I love the Tridentine Mass. I would like to see nearly no restrictions on it. However, it does seem to have a nasty habit of producing nearly schismatic radically traditional Catholics who basically deny the authority of Vatican II and our current Popes (Or at least get as close to a denial as they can without actually leaving the church.) The Latin Mass needs to implement something to prevent this from happening.
Tridentine Mass purest are also simply saying "How pleasing is this act of worship to me" just like you said the Novus Ordo folks say (Time Code: 26:15). Your preference of the Traditional Latin Mass is the same thing.
We are the one Church to the whole world, we must be careful not to assume the the uniquely European expression of reverence is some how more true then those of other cultures. Cultural expression of the Novus Ordo may vary because cultures vary. For example, what feels sacred and reverent to an Italian will often feel disrespectful to a Nigerian. I think the wide expression of the littergy is a good thing for this fact alone.
I drive a half hour out of my way to attend a Novus Ordo mass that fits my cultural expression of respect. But I do not begrudge the other Churches I pass, because their congregations are thriving and devout. They simply are not my preferred expression of the Novus Ordo.
So How does my Church hold up to your suggestions?
My Church's Nuvos Ordo (St. Peter and Paul Indianapolis IN).
-Sings the Antiphon
-The Priest bows before the altar and kisses the altar as he enters.
-We often pray the Kyrie in Greek (about half the year).
-The music usually leans on the traditional music. My wife is in the Choir and sometimes her music notes are in Gregorian Chant notation.
-We sing the Agnus Dei in Latin about half the year.
-They always sing the correct Psalm
-They never skip the alleluia verse
A note on the Novus Ordo Eucharist "feeling like a conveyor belt".
I have taken communion at TLM and it felt less personal and more "conveyor belt" then the Novus Ordo line. The conversation at the modern Mass of "The Body of Christ" "Amen" is a powerful moment that helps ensure the recipient agrees they believe in the true presence. At the TLM I was shocked at how the priest just plopped the Body of Christ on my tongue and walked off. Once again, reverence is in the eye of the beholder.
I think that in America, there is a demographic cliff that we're slowly falling off, the baby boomers are dying off, and Gen-Xers, and Millennials aren't there to replace them, the only exception was in the TLM. The wealthiest country in the world, the USA, and also France another wealthy country, were on course to dominate the Church this century and they were going to dominate with the TLM, and Bergoglio could not allowed that to happen.
I think that the NO liturgy is incredibly ugly, it fosters lukewarmness in Catholics, and the mess that the world is in right now is due strongly in part due to the mess of the NO.
Can the pope and all the novus ordo hordes admit that there have been thousands of ways to do what used to be the Roman Rite since the mid 60s. An honest person would have to say that the Latin Rite has long since ceased to exist. In the last 70 years there has been a massive erosion of Faith and Piety.
They can't
lucien deiss gave a workshop at my college. He hated the Basilica, and he openly said so to everyone. His music was only one degree better than ray repp, sebastian temple, and that 60s ilk.
Fascinating. His writings are quite scornful of traditional Catholic music. Did he express disdain for basilicas in general or your basilica in particular?
@@historiaecclesiastica This was in 1972, i think. he hated our Church. But he would have said the same about any Church that looked like a Church. To be fair, our Basilica had a hurriedly done 70s renovation. And the interior needed some maintenance, at the time. I think the whole point was for him to push and sell his music.
The Novus Ordo is the protestantising of the Holy Mass! The Holy Mass has become a protestant worship service! Something has to be done, the Church is dying because of a lack of reverence at Holy Mass! There is chatter and loud laughing in our churches! Immodest dress! One cannot sit quietly to meditate and pray in a Roman Catholic Church. I believe the only place today that one can expect silence is a library! So sad! Our Lord is not pleased!
The TLM is the Catholic Mass and hence ontologically, liturgically and structurally different from the Novus Ordo which is nothing but the Protestantised service as tinkered by Anibale Bugnini. There is no way the two can commingle given their different foci, one is theocetric and propitiatory, the other is anthropocentric and hence entertaining, (THE PRIEST BECOMING THE POSSESSOR OF THE STAGE, A SHOWMAN)which is the motive behind its birth, that is to entertain the modern man. There is no need to make NOM seem like the TLM since we can stop and discourage the phoney service and go back to the worship of God, and not of man. Reality is either this or that. There is no need to make something assume(semblance) what it ontologically and quiditively can never be.