Bucket Brigade Device BBD wersi voice rotor string choir effect unit
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- Опубліковано 18 січ 2019
- I fixed a vintage Wersi voice rotor string choir effects unit and thought I would show the insides and a little on how Bucket Brigade Devices work in this unit. Plus the rant on why manufacturers have some common chips renamed with strange part numbers.
The music at the end is played by Jason Lee ( youtube = organaut ) - Наука та технологія
That organ jam at the end was awesome.
Gnarly Soundscapes Thank you that was Jason aka youtube organaut.
There is still one major manufacturer of BBD chips, in 1024, 2048 and 4096 stage versions and that is Coolaudio, part of Music Tribe/Behringer.
Even Roland now uses their BBD chips.
And as for the 2 outputs, the numbers represent how many times it has been delayed, well that is what is documented in the manual for the Coolaudio V3208D (which is essentially a MN3208).
dglcomputers I have bought some coolaudio chips for a future project but i’m struggling to find the time to get started on it.
CoolAudio makes some pretty... cool stuff, whatsinaname. I'm definitely eager to check those BBD's out :)
The 32xx range BBD's have a lower operating voltages and thus less headroom and more noise.
if only they made more of the shorter delays, like a 256-stage bbd. anything shorter than 1024 is getting hard to source, and they are not cheap.
Top mending skills and big up Jason Lee, great ending music 👍
Fascinating exploration of the circuit! Nice use of split screen, too.
Patrick A Bartmess Thanks Patrick.
the face traking is a nice touch. a little bit like being in the room with you, thanks for adding all the videos together. i look forware to more vids like this
bolton368 Thank you very much. It turned out better than I was expecting as I thought there would be too much happening on the screen with 3 cameras at work.
Pin 513 is to do with the sampling rate, pages 12-37 and 12-38 of the old Elektor magazine from December 1976 explain it well, it’s available on the internet archive, I’ll reply to this post with the link as it will get blackholed by UA-cam
Silent 1 Thank you very much for that info. I will have a read about that as its one of those things I always knew was there (the pin 513) but never really looked into what it was about. best wishes.
markusfuller no problem, you’ve provided me hours of entertainment so I thought nothing of taking the time to try and find out for you as I was intrigued too
Thank you for this info!
@@SilentMono honestly i don´t like the fact that elektor uses -15Volts....it´s the very close to the absolute maximum rating....use -12Volts instead...also the PCB layout is critical....don´t use Perfboards, protoboards for anything other than "proove-of-concept" builds....I do have the original elektor issue(s) and i also tried to buildup that circuit when these chips could be easily bought...but it lacks in audio-performance as you can hear a clock-noise and also aliassing....after all, it has some great info, but the provided circuit is of rather basic performance (like many elektor stuff) and you would need to do alter it anyway if you want to use it for more than just a gimmick.....by the way...you can convert the complete issue into .pdf without any charge....thanx elektor :)
That Triangle is practically a sawtooth. Love that analog warmth!
Robert Syrett Hi Robert yes I placed a note on the screen at that part saying it was a sawtooth. i know i said triangle but i was wrong.
Man I love it when you break out the Oscilloscope! I wish I had something like that one. 👊🏼
Jakob Haq Thanks Jakob. The scope is one of the lower spec models and about 6 years old but it has 4 channels so is great for what i want, Keysight make some now that are much faster with many more options and are cheaper than this one cost me. It really is such a useful tool.
Im glad you kept the LFO "scopes" on instead of disabling them, because its nice to see what the lfos do visually. very helpful! @@markusfuller
Nice organ demo to close your video. Btw, those BBD boxes were intended to emulate the Leslie rotary speakers sound, hence the mono output mixing two channels to recreate the characteristic dephasing sound of those (huge and heaaaavy) cabinets. The 3 BBD chips are "tuned" to different LFO frequencies to recreate this dephasing effect.
Jedi Level man cave. Thanks for the video, superb as always.
The music at the end was a nice touch. Thanks for sharing.
AlainHubert Thanks Alain. its from a track we did a while ago called skylab. I think we put it on soundcloud/markusfuller
@@markusfuller
Is that a Rhythm Ace FR2L as the drum machine on this ? Sounds good. I've got a later model (when Rhythm Ace became Roland), the Rhythm 77 (sometimes known as the TR-77). As for chip rebranding, you're lucky there was anything written at all on them. Sometimes paranoid companies will go as far as sanding the silkscreen off !
AlainHubert Hi Alain. the drum machine on the top of the organ is the rhythm-ace inside the box but its a hammond branded version.
Loved the music at the end Markus. You should do a few more music videos like that. FAB
Doktor Uzo Thank you very much Doctor Uzo
Awesome playing Jason :D
D.
WesslansFilmprod Thank you ( from Jason )
really great video!
In the Wersi organs, this effect provided a rotary imitation for the drawbar sounds and ensemble for strings section (as known from Solina strings)
As it turns out, your unit, sounds very similar to the one i had...you can easily hear the repeating of the effect(s) while the Phasing rotor (being also much more complex) has also some analog filtering after the BBDs making the audio less predicable....
Also the later WersiVoice sound somewhat different, as it´s also digital controlled...i think they beefed up the LFOs and also did some after BBD audio filtering
Thanx for the audio-demo, Markus...:)
what a nice sound! :-)
Lovely, beautiful, old thing!
Midi Play Box I thought you meant me for a moment :-) LOL
another good video
Well Markus, I was under the impression you did know everything... 😂
Would love to see more repair videos like this as that's why I originally subscribed - is there some reason you can't film more of the general work you do for other peoples synths etc?
Adam Robertshaw Hi Adam. Its just that business of repairs has really slowed down at the moment plus I ended up doing some other kind of job so I do not get enough time to do many repairs now.
I just picked up a Soviet era TOM-1501 which is a clone of the Crumar Orchestrator string machine and it includes the same effects stage of vibrato + three parallel 512 stage BBDs modulated by a three phase LFO. It's quite striking what it can do to a basic string sound. Thanks for covering this device.
Peter S I love the Crumar orchestrator. I have the multiman-s at the moment and it sounds wonderful.
It is indeed a shame that those old BBD chips aren't made anymore :( I am building my own string synth from the ground up and instead of using BBD chips to give the chorus effect I am going to stack 3 ranks of oscillators (36 total) complete with another 36 dividers and keyer circuits! Similar to the Freeman string synth. I will than modulate the three ranks separately with 3 independent lfos.
And this is my first ever synth project! .....I'm nuts:)
Also nice vid!
PracticalCat First ever synth project. wow thats a task to start on but it sounds like it will be a great project. I love Ken Freemans string machines.
CoolAudio is making a copy of the MN3207 BBD, the V3207D and they're available on ebay for next to nothing along with the clock chip.
@@7lbOwl thanks! I've eyed vintage BBD ICs to build my own little effects maschine. It just got a lot cheaper :D
markusfuller haha yeah its definitely a big undertaking. I am however taking it very slow and getting each stage working before I move on to the next. Its actually not too complicated just ALOT of repetition in the circuitry. I think the keying circuits were the hardest part to get my head around. But after looking at many service manuals for ideas I have come up with a design.
And yes the Freeman string symphony is fantastic! Kind of similar to the korg lamda and Yamaha ss30 imo. At least they are the only others that used multiple oscillator ranks.
Berrabub and you dont have to design something with obsolete parts! Which i hate doing.
Good point on the "watch out for the live bits".. I got a (literal) shock from my Korg Delta. Be careful out there!
A good analog Effekt with Eimerketten IC's...with Takt Flipflops Oszillator,Double Higher than NF and depth Pass...
Nice thank you Mark
Moshing up and down :D reminds me of the mosh pits at metal gigs.
Nice jam from the Organaut. Kinda reminds me of 2001 or Blade Runner
The reason it is not stereo is simple. In the 70s/80s most people in bands only ran in mono. Only the very high end PA systems were stereo. Most guitar/bass/keyboard amps were mono.
Pick Holder Yes I guess I’m forgetting it’s age really when stereo was not so commonly used plus most organs were mono also.
What a lovely warm analogue effect. Perhaps you could find a second one for stereo use.... Please do more repair videos!
Alex Thanks Alex, I may be able to make this one into a stereo type version as some viewers have commented on how it could be done without buying a second version.
@@markusfuller just to repeat myself from somewhere above....: it can be easily done....the one with the deepest LFO mod is the center and both the others are hard panned right/left(or VCA - panned, even nicer)....killer sound...but the mod is hard to do in the WersiVoice (audio routing is terrible) but rather easy on the Böhm Phasing Rotor. Add a panner (2 VCAs) and external CV inputs to all BBDs and manual feedback control or CV.......and use headphones...and you are in the middle of the 70s space age...just add as many plasma-lamps for eye-candy as you like ;)
Or (my strongest suggestion - if you like the BBD stuff, like me;) look out for the Böhm Phasing Rotor PCB sets...more modular...way better audio performance and far more complex CV/audio routing(=deeper, non-predictable effects) , better LFOs, tracked filters....easier feedback access (CV and/or adjustable)...add VCAs for panning...add individual audio outs per BBD and add BBD CV inputs (you can even use audio for that) and voila: you built your very own analog "ursa-major space station" clone.
Hi Markus, I saw your question regarding 513 output on one of the pins. I think it is a sort of overflow so you can daisy chain these chips, so you get 512+512+.. and lengthen the bucket line.
Albert Pauw Thank you Albert that actually makes good sense, I never thought of it like that but that sounds completely logical. many thanks.
Good lord my friend. That is the Lab of my dreams... Nice Digital mixer in the back right. Please, What is it! I just got a used Zoom R16 Recorder/Interface/Controller and have fallen in love with it.
I onwed one of these. Got it way back in the early 1990s.....i was very excited when i heard that wersi did a standalone wersivoice at some point as well..., but also a bit dissapoined afterwards...i was thinking i would get me something like the "WersiVoice" in my MK-1, but naah....
After that, i tried the "Böhm - Phasing Rotor"...but this one was never actually released as s stand alone unit...but the PCBs are quite self containing....And these are killer...thick, rich and very deep sounding....They have three BBD-chips which are controlled by an individual mix of three sinusoidal LFOs which are 120° out of phase. Afterwards the audio comming out of the BBDs are mixed together using hi/low and band-pass filters...
I was so impressed by this, that i bought about eight PCBs sets over the years and combined to true stereo effects units with, in some cases, CV inputs and VCAs to also have a slighty modulated audio amplitude, and also the later incarnation the Phasing Rotor 2000, which has even better audio and converted it to accept external CVs for individual delay modulation and individual audio outputs with added VCAs.
Let´s see what´s your oppinion....
It is believed that Dr Bohm was one of the early pioneers at Wersi but branched off to start his own company making electronic organ kits. I know nothing about the Bohm phasing rotor 2000 as I have seen a few Bohm organs but never had the pleasure of getting inside one.
Your (no, Jason´s ;) performance 14:57 could be kindalike the same thing that JeanMichelJarre did when he started his career....and also i do this sort of jamming from time to time..using a plain sawtooth or rectangular waveform and feed it into the Phasing Rotors and also use the FR-2L and space out...Well played :)
I think one clock input clocks all of the odd stages, and one clocks all of the even stages. The clocks are inverted from each other, so the two outputs would have different timing. One would be off of the one clock, and the other off of the other one. Here is a quote from the SAD512 data sheet: The device has its output split into two channels to provide output over each full clock period in normal operation. This device also has outputs from stages 512 and 513.
That is mind boggling. Would you take a guess as to why? Versatility, I guess.
Hello, Do you know (or anyone reading this) when the Wersivoice was produced and on the market?
Hey! I’m looking for an effect unit that can basically do the same kind of triple « moving » chorus. to add to string pads. Have you got an idea? or …Has someone any ideas? thanks to share your informations!
That's a very cool effects device. I wonder how it would sound with a theremin. Thanks for the video. :)
ThomasGrillo Hi Thomas , thinking about it I guess it should be pretty interesting with a Theremin attached. do you fancy a 6000 mile trip ?. would be great to see you.
Would do, if I had the funds. LOL Indeed, it would be great to see you. :)
@@markusfuller naah....you need harmonics...plenty...it simply doesn´t sound that good with only a sinusoidal waveform as the audio input. the more harmonics the audio input signal has the better the effects-depth...try white noise with all my the mods i described and use headphones, close your eyes and fly away into space....;)
Great Vid (as usual) How did you find out that WIC6020 = 4066 ??
Hi Ed I just kept on googling and it came up a few times that this chip was an equivalent so I thought I would give it a try and it seems to work . heres one of the links I found but there were several that kind of gave the clue. www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjYkOSf6P7fAhXl6eAKHdPyAA8Qjxx6BAgBEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpicclick.de%2F1x-WIC6020-HCF4066-MC4066-zB-222710871737.html&psig=AOvVaw10Mokwzc5HIY0-zcB-o_n0&ust=1548158024367419
Thanks for replying
It's more or less pronounced "Versi" and belongs to the Musicstorecologne now.
Have your ever though of doing videos about building, fixing or modding studio gear?
This should sound a lot better if it were stereo. Mixing the slowest BBD to both outputs and the faster ones to left and right. This can be heard on the Solina String Ensemble (later versions). The modification itself is simple enough, just copy the existing output stage with modified mixing of the BBD lines.
Xvive still makes the MN3005, a longer delay time BBD, 4096 stages.
PWMaarten You have me thinking now, maybe I should have a go at doing this. I have a Crumar multiman-s but I also had a solina years ago, wish I had never sold that solina.
markusfuller I'd love to see a video of this. ;)
I've done a lot of BBD circuits. Love the sound of them!
I would guess that the 513 output would cascade to other BBD chips to allow increasing the length.
John Passaniti Thank John another viewer sent an article about it for me to read and you are quite correct.
Hi Markus. How does one actually identify original chips? Is this just insider knowledge carried on in the scene or are there certain tricks / procedures one can apply to identify them? People asking rediculous prices for branded chips is becoming an ever bigger problem when dealing with old instruments. I have however heard that some of these chips have now been put back into production by one of the Behringer group companies. Maybe that will make some of them reasonably affordable again. Let's hope a bucket brigade and some chips typically used in organ divide down oscillators are among them.
Hello Marc, the clue here was there was a different chip than what was specified on the schematic and the 3 down the left side bbd chips 2 were wersi chips and one philips but on the schematic they showed 3 same chips as bbd chips. but there are many chip numbers that have been used by other companies and they specify their own numbers and codes to be etched onto them. the behringer chips you mention I think are called coolaudio and they are producing vca’s vcf’s vco’s and several other old style synth chips. I bought a small selection of them in the hope of putting something together in a future video but have been so busy just recently that i have not had to to start anything with them just yet.
@@markusfuller I'm surely looking forward to that.
Interesting video i have a Wersi Orion gathering dust in my back room and some spare 6020 not sure what to do with them
Pete roberts Hi Pete sadly some old organs are worth more in parts than an actual working organ. I like Wersi organs but some are better than others as with most things.theres a lot of wersi organ groups on facebook.
Hi Markus. Is SWIRLING the word you where looking for?
Nice sweater.
Toaster Chicken Thank you :-)
Mark, has anyone seen a schematic for wersimatic wm24/b?
ps I have a tda1022 sheet i can send you ..interesting question. I've never had calling to study into the details but it shows 514 stages...last one a clearing stage to Vdd. 512 is on clock 1, 513 on clock 2 and in application the two are just tied together to smooth things a bit I suppose
Did I hear the Chords from Leftfield's Song Of Life at 8:40?..
Technomadic im not sure it was leftfields chords. it was Cminor Gmajor Fmajor i played, I know its a common chorg progression.
V in germany is pronounced almost like an f, like in volkswagen , it's pronounced "folksvagen"wich means hmm peoples wagon
W is pronounced as V
the two outputs always seem to be summed from the BBDs
Sasquatch Just one mono output on this but the 3 bbd chip outputs mix down to the one mono out. maybe i could try and pick on the outputs seperatly and mix them into a stereo+mono output ?.
I meant the outputs from the IC's - i recall they have two outputs which are usually summed using resistors - can't recall if the second output was used to cascade BBDs - I could be wrong - its been a few years :-)
8:29 because it would take twice as many BBD's and support chips. Cost'll get ya every time.
Roderick Legato well they could have split the existing BBD outputs or added a voltage controlled panner. Being 2 VCAs
This unit has three BBD chips, so they can't be split into two channels.
Roderick Legato of course they can. Just grab the output of the first one for example and run that on the right output channel.
Configuration of which are used and how might change between modes but sniffing an output will be doable
Okay, yeah you could do that. It would give you a Right channel with 1/3 the current max delay, and a Left channel with 2/3 the current max delay.
Roderick Legato or tap from the second chip.
I suggested the first as it’s more likely to be used in every setting
Didn’t know Einstein could play the organ🤪
I have one for sale in Los Angeles. DM me if your local.
Are you OK? 😐
samesong Sure im fine ?.
those TDAs are prolly gonna die off like all the rest of the BBDs... sad face
Awesome music but the "drums" are horible. All drums from organs are sh*t.