Thank you, Dale. As a man aspiring to become a Benedictine in the coming years, you are a great inspiration to my pursuit. Here on your channel you have a rare transparency and authentic perspective on Church matters, which is excellent. To me, you are as Catholic or as Eastern Orthodox as it gets; you have an authentic view on both, which I highly respect. To me, you are as Catholic or as Eastern Orthodox as it gets; you have an authentic view on both, which I highly respect. I have felt uneasy about both the Eastern and Western Churches and their constant disunity. Yet, I have come to respect both and realize that Christ isn’t going to send thousands of authentic followers to hell out of spite. Your takes are valuable, so keep circulating them.
We appear to be opposites. Interesting that you should say that you are simply not a man of the East. I spent my lifetime up until a couple years ago certain God was there but not comfortable with any church I'd been to around the country. St Augustine's influence is virtually everywhere and it just wasn't for me. Everything changed for me when I discovered that Eastern Christianity is something you could experience in the West. It just never occurred to me that it was an option. Then I saw a documentary of an Anglican Priest's visit with a Coptic monastic and was utterly captivated. Flash forward and now I am in the church at Antioch's North American archdiocese. I agree that some folks are more concerned with the Orthodox part than with the Christianity part. But I find Holy Tradition is like a warm blanket wrapped around me, a comfort in a cold world. It was a joy to find my home in the faith. I pray you find yours as well and God protect you on the journey.
@@patrickbarnes9874 Thank you for sharing a bit of your journey. And, yeah, I get the Augustine thing. Maximos is, imho, wiser. Cue von Balthasar again.
I believe what has caused me to identify more with Eastern Christianity than Western is the more mystical mindset of the Eastern Churches rather than the legalistic mind of the Western. I find it easier to be in communion with fellow Christians that agree on basics and admit there is a lot of mysteries that we don't understand, than commune with those that think they know and understand everything and make up stuff when they don't. That is not to say that there are no Eastern Christians that are this way. But since there is no "Vicar of Christ" in the East, I find larger pockets of open mindedness there than in Rome.
I certainly sympathize with you about the "easternness" of Orthodoxy. Although it has definitely caused a bit of friction for me--my opinions on the Filioque and Immaculate Conception do not always earn me points among my fellow Orthodox--I ultimately find that I feel most at home having some objections within Orthodoxy, than being fully Western without. As much as it pains me to be separated from my Catholic brethren, I simply do not believe that the princely office of bishop has ever hinged off of the Roman See. I am greatly looking forward to us all getting to celebrate the feast of feasts, Easter, together next year. May we all pray, along with St Basil, "for peace in the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all."
I am in a similar position from the Byzantine Catholic side. While I have some dubia I am yet more at home having some objections within Catholicism than being fully Eastern without. I am certainly praying for unity as well.
Definitely research the Western Rite of Orthodoxy. The Old Catholics come very close to this and I think you would find a spiritual home in the Western Rite .
@@dalecaldwell Rare as they are to begin with, actually finding a Western Rite Orthodox parish that properly understands the rite it is claiming to "resurrect" is like finding a needle in a haystack.
I’m eastern catholic. When I transferred it was explained to me as such: the pope is the first among equals like the oldest of 12 brothers. Granted I believe the orthodox and the Catholic Church are both the true church, just a bunch of stubborn men who refuse to accept the ways they were wrong keeping them from reunification. Granted this crazy pope we have isn’t getting anybody reconciled imo. I keep praying though.
I sympathise with your situation, Dale. I was baptised a Roman Catholic but after a long process of research and reflection (starting with the 'filioque' controversy and many related issues) I felt I ought to leave, so I became an Orthodox catechumen and found a lovely little parish. But after about 5 months of catechumenate I've found plenty of holes to poke in the Orthodox claim; besides, I don't think I can go through with being chrismated again and (at least implicitly) deny the sacraments I previously received in my RC years. I have been meeting with a wonderful Anglican priest with a nice Anglo-Catholic parish so I think I'll go that direction - the Anglicans don't deny other churches and I'm an Englishman so the English liturgy speaks to me in a way other rites probably never will.
Dale have you ever read one lord one faith by vernon johnson? He was an anglican priest who converted to Roman Catholicism, but his book is about authority in the early church and the papacy. You might find it an interesting read.
Amen, brother. Perhaps there is no organization that is "The Church". Perhaps the "Bride of Christ" is larger than any human institution. As I told my wife's priest (new Catholic): I don't believe you are without Grace; quite the opposite. I am just share more of the same Faith as the Russians and Serbs, so I commune with them. And if there were no Orthodox, I would return to the Lutheran Church. If the LCMS would have returned to conservatism prior to me becoming Orthodox 30 years ago, I would probably not have left. And if Benedict would have stayed the Pope, I may now be Roman Catholic.
I've been a silent follower of your posts forever it seems, but my journey is very similar to yours. Formerly an Anglican priest, I was received into Orthodoxy eight years back, but the nearest church is very, very Greek and is four-hours drive away! I have explored the Personal Ordinariate, but there is only one parish in our state and it is also far far away. (The legal hoops are likewise tedious, lengthy and very off-putting.) I also considered seeking permission to receive communion at the local Catholic parish while remaining Orthodox, although that's not really kosher either! My interim solution has been to be part of an online Matins gathering on Sunday mornings led by a somewhat unorthodox Orthodox priest who is without a parish, but very involved in Academia and interchurch forums. It is a relatively small group which gives us good opportunity to share and care for one another. Your journey is not alone. With my prayers, Padre Al on the Edge of the Outback, Down-under.
I will concede that I am much younger and newer to the Christian faith than most others, but I was in a very similar spot to you my friend. I believed everything the Catholic church taught with no problem, and only the Papacy kept me from committing. I eventually decided that if I believed everything except that, then wouldn't the Papacy be true also? I accept it on principle faith now, but I understand where many people are coming from on the issue. I just wanted to share how similar my experience was to yours and how I proceeded. Lord have mercy!
@sambo72 I would not want to dissuade you from Roman Catholicism. Maybe the papacy is a corruption, but the Church has also preserved the wealth of the Christianity. As Augustine said, it is only a thing which is good can be corrupted.
My family and i are in a strange place now, as well. Baptized Orthodox 4 years ago, but it never really took to my wife (though she thinks the liturgy is the most beautiful). She prefers the more... legal aspects of RC. She likes the unified catechism, unified beliefs, etc. I find it frustrating. I went from atheist to Orthodox so i was a sponge to this foreign way of thinking abd acting in the world. I met Christ in the liturgy and in front of icons. My wife did not. What this means? I'm not sure but Exodus 32:32 & Romans 9:3 are stuck in my head like a pop song from the grocery store.
Ah, well. Antioch is a popular name. I was chrismated in the Episcopal Church, and ordained in the Church of Antioch that is part of the Old Catholic family of Churches rather than in the Church of Antioch that is part of the Eastern Orthodox family. To add to the confusion, the Roman Catholic Exarch (sp?) of Antioch is a few generations upstream from my ordination.
Jesus said foxes have holes and birds have nests,son of man has no place to lay his head. Thats the price very few accept.holy in Hebrew means to set apart.
Dear Dale Do you have info what the Bible and apostles thought about the conception of Mary? Was Jesus as human made out her egg and God Himself (the Eternal Word as a seed)? Or was she “only” the womb He was placed in? I would like to find out of the Lord was as human being the result of God as Father mixed with an egg of Mary as His mother (because that makes Him something -the GodMan- new). When he returned to His Father He was different than when He came to us. Normal mothers bring forth ánd help to create a person who first n o t existed. The Case of the Bearing of the Eternal Word is not the same. Jesus was (and is forever) I Am.
First, I will be a bit snarky and say that books, not even the Bible, don't think. They store data, but do not process it, althugh one could argue that the Bible is full of hotlinks. One of the earliest heresies was Docetism, which claimed that Jesus was not a real man, but only alppeared so. That was understandable because it made the problem of the resurrection a matter of smoke and mirrors rather than an even that happened to someone who had a real body, as Jesus tells his disciples after the reusrrection when he asks them if they have anything to eat, and it is of course something Paul affirms when he say that Jesus was a real man tempted, even as you and I. The egg-and-seed problem would come later, since the tradition jewish concept of conception was that the woman was only the place where the seed was nurtured. (See the use of 'seed' in both testaments. However, the Church early considered that if God is Spirit, and that bodies are created, and that the material for bodies come from mother's, that Jesus' body was a gift, as it were, from his mother.
Thank you, Dale. As a man aspiring to become a Benedictine in the coming years, you are a great inspiration to my pursuit. Here on your channel you have a rare transparency and authentic perspective on Church matters, which is excellent.
To me, you are as Catholic or as Eastern Orthodox as it gets; you have an authentic view on both, which I highly respect.
To me, you are as Catholic or as Eastern Orthodox as it gets; you have an authentic view on both, which I highly respect. I have felt uneasy about both the Eastern and Western Churches and their constant disunity. Yet, I have come to respect both and realize that Christ isn’t going to send thousands of authentic followers to hell out of spite.
Your takes are valuable, so keep circulating them.
Thank you for the encouragement.
We appear to be opposites.
Interesting that you should say that you are simply not a man of the East. I spent my lifetime up until a couple years ago certain God was there but not comfortable with any church I'd been to around the country. St Augustine's influence is virtually everywhere and it just wasn't for me.
Everything changed for me when I discovered that Eastern Christianity is something you could experience in the West. It just never occurred to me that it was an option. Then I saw a documentary of an Anglican Priest's visit with a Coptic monastic and was utterly captivated. Flash forward and now I am in the church at Antioch's North American archdiocese.
I agree that some folks are more concerned with the Orthodox part than with the Christianity part. But I find Holy Tradition is like a warm blanket wrapped around me, a comfort in a cold world.
It was a joy to find my home in the faith. I pray you find yours as well and God protect you on the journey.
@@patrickbarnes9874 Thank you for sharing a bit of your journey. And, yeah, I get the Augustine thing. Maximos is, imho, wiser. Cue von Balthasar again.
I believe what has caused me to identify more with Eastern Christianity than Western is the more mystical mindset of the Eastern Churches rather than the legalistic mind of the Western. I find it easier to be in communion with fellow Christians that agree on basics and admit there is a lot of mysteries that we don't understand, than commune with those that think they know and understand everything and make up stuff when they don't. That is not to say that there are no Eastern Christians that are this way. But since there is no "Vicar of Christ" in the East, I find larger pockets of open mindedness there than in Rome.
“I just don’t think Christ died to form a bureaucracy.” Well said.
I certainly sympathize with you about the "easternness" of Orthodoxy. Although it has definitely caused a bit of friction for me--my opinions on the Filioque and Immaculate Conception do not always earn me points among my fellow Orthodox--I ultimately find that I feel most at home having some objections within Orthodoxy, than being fully Western without. As much as it pains me to be separated from my Catholic brethren, I simply do not believe that the princely office of bishop has ever hinged off of the Roman See.
I am greatly looking forward to us all getting to celebrate the feast of feasts, Easter, together next year. May we all pray, along with St Basil, "for peace in the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all."
I am in a similar position from the Byzantine Catholic side. While I have some dubia I am yet more at home having some objections within Catholicism than being fully Eastern without. I am certainly praying for unity as well.
Definitely research the Western Rite of Orthodoxy. The Old Catholics come very close to this and I think you would find a spiritual home in the Western Rite .
@@richardgreiner9264 You are correct, but there's no Western Rite Congregation for hundreds of miles around me.
@@dalecaldwell Rare as they are to begin with, actually finding a Western Rite Orthodox parish that properly understands the rite it is claiming to "resurrect" is like finding a needle in a haystack.
@ Yes that is so often the case .
@@EthanWeigand yes that is very true unfortunately.
I’m eastern catholic. When I transferred it was explained to me as such: the pope is the first among equals like the oldest of 12 brothers. Granted I believe the orthodox and the Catholic Church are both the true church, just a bunch of stubborn men who refuse to accept the ways they were wrong keeping them from reunification. Granted this crazy pope we have isn’t getting anybody reconciled imo. I keep praying though.
Except that all of the Eastern Catholic churches are governed by and under one small dicastery, recently under the leadership of an Italian.
I do understand you, Dale !
I sympathise with your situation, Dale. I was baptised a Roman Catholic but after a long process of research and reflection (starting with the 'filioque' controversy and many related issues) I felt I ought to leave, so I became an Orthodox catechumen and found a lovely little parish. But after about 5 months of catechumenate I've found plenty of holes to poke in the Orthodox claim; besides, I don't think I can go through with being chrismated again and (at least implicitly) deny the sacraments I previously received in my RC years. I have been meeting with a wonderful Anglican priest with a nice Anglo-Catholic parish so I think I'll go that direction - the Anglicans don't deny other churches and I'm an Englishman so the English liturgy speaks to me in a way other rites probably never will.
Dale have you ever read one lord one faith by vernon johnson?
He was an anglican priest who converted to Roman Catholicism, but his book is about authority in the early church and the papacy.
You might find it an interesting read.
@@amazingpoohbear6685 Thanks. I have not.
Amen, brother. Perhaps there is no organization that is "The Church". Perhaps the "Bride of Christ" is larger than any human institution. As I told my wife's priest (new Catholic): I don't believe you are without Grace; quite the opposite. I am just share more of the same Faith as the Russians and Serbs, so I commune with them. And if there were no Orthodox, I would return to the Lutheran Church. If the LCMS would have returned to conservatism prior to me becoming Orthodox 30 years ago, I would probably not have left. And if Benedict would have stayed the Pope, I may now be Roman Catholic.
My current path to finding a church to join looks very similar to yours. Glad and saddened to hear a similar story.
I've been a silent follower of your posts forever it seems, but my journey is very similar to yours. Formerly an Anglican priest, I was received into Orthodoxy eight years back, but the nearest church is very, very Greek and is four-hours drive away! I have explored the Personal Ordinariate, but there is only one parish in our state and it is also far far away. (The legal hoops are likewise tedious, lengthy and very off-putting.) I also considered seeking permission to receive communion at the local Catholic parish while remaining Orthodox, although that's not really kosher either! My interim solution has been to be part of an online Matins gathering on Sunday mornings led by a somewhat unorthodox Orthodox priest who is without a parish, but very involved in Academia and interchurch forums. It is a relatively small group which gives us good opportunity to share and care for one another. Your journey is not alone. With my prayers, Padre Al on the Edge of the Outback, Down-under.
"It is true that the Louvre is in Paris" 😆
I will concede that I am much younger and newer to the Christian faith than most others, but I was in a very similar spot to you my friend. I believed everything the Catholic church taught with no problem, and only the Papacy kept me from committing. I eventually decided that if I believed everything except that, then wouldn't the Papacy be true also? I accept it on principle faith now, but I understand where many people are coming from on the issue. I just wanted to share how similar my experience was to yours and how I proceeded. Lord have mercy!
@sambo72 I would not want to dissuade you from Roman Catholicism. Maybe the papacy is a corruption, but the Church has also preserved the wealth of the Christianity. As Augustine said, it is only a thing which is good can be corrupted.
My family and i are in a strange place now, as well. Baptized Orthodox 4 years ago, but it never really took to my wife (though she thinks the liturgy is the most beautiful).
She prefers the more... legal aspects of RC. She likes the unified catechism, unified beliefs, etc. I find it frustrating. I went from atheist to Orthodox so i was a sponge to this foreign way of thinking abd acting in the world.
I met Christ in the liturgy and in front of icons. My wife did not.
What this means? I'm not sure but Exodus 32:32 & Romans 9:3 are stuck in my head like a pop song from the grocery store.
Wait, I’m confused…so you’ve been chrismated and received into Antioch at one point?
Ah, well. Antioch is a popular name. I was chrismated in the Episcopal Church, and ordained in the Church of Antioch that is part of the Old Catholic family of Churches rather than in the Church of Antioch that is part of the Eastern Orthodox family. To add to the confusion, the Roman Catholic Exarch (sp?) of Antioch is a few generations upstream from my ordination.
@@dalecaldwell Thank you for clarifying, Dale. I was hella confused!
Jesus said foxes have holes and birds have nests,son of man has no place to lay his head. Thats the price very few accept.holy in Hebrew means to set apart.
I think your spiritual home is in the tin can and all the folks upon whom you exert good influences. Fortiter, Frater!
It does seem a likely case.
Dear Dale
Do you have info what the Bible and apostles thought about the conception of Mary?
Was Jesus as human made out her egg and God Himself (the Eternal Word as a seed)? Or was she “only” the womb He was placed in?
I would like to find out of the Lord was as human being the result of God as Father mixed with an egg of Mary as His mother (because that makes Him something -the GodMan- new).
When he returned to His Father He was different than when He came to us.
Normal mothers bring forth
ánd help to create
a person who first
n o t existed.
The Case of the Bearing of the Eternal Word is not the same. Jesus was (and is forever) I Am.
First, I will be a bit snarky and say that books, not even the Bible, don't think. They store data, but do not process it, althugh one could argue that the Bible is full of hotlinks. One of the earliest heresies was Docetism, which claimed that Jesus was not a real man, but only alppeared so. That was understandable because it made the problem of the resurrection a matter of smoke and mirrors rather than an even that happened to someone who had a real body, as Jesus tells his disciples after the reusrrection when he asks them if they have anything to eat, and it is of course something Paul affirms when he say that Jesus was a real man tempted, even as you and I. The egg-and-seed problem would come later, since the tradition jewish concept of conception was that the woman was only the place where the seed was nurtured. (See the use of 'seed' in both testaments. However, the Church early considered that if God is Spirit, and that bodies are created, and that the material for bodies come from mother's, that Jesus' body was a gift, as it were, from his mother.
Great! thank you Bro Dale❤