Home Shop Rifling - Part 2
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- Опубліковано 29 гру 2018
- Check out Rifling Part 3!! • Home Shop Rifling THRE...
I recorded and edited the majority of this video 14 months ago, but rifling buttons in the marketplace have gone through a huge change. So some of the information is outdated but there is good stuff in there as well so I decided to share. People keep asking why heat treat before rifling. Didn't think I had room to address it here but here it is! A good barrel needs to be strong and tough. 4140 or 4150 steel at Rc 28-32 is a good hardness range. While being harder/stronger makes it harder for the button to go through because it takes more force to swage the rifling into the steel, the increased hardness also reduces the friction between the button and the steel and makes it easier to go through. But in the contest between reduced friction and increased force for swaging, I think the latter wins. But so what? It's a bit harder to push the button through but who cares? The machine doesn't care and the button survives just fine, and in the end you have a good, strong, tough barrel. Another HUGE reason is the tendency of the button to pick up steel from the bore if it's not strong enough. It involves coefficients of friction and normal forces, and is a little technical. Another issue with doing the hardening after? The main reason is that heat treating a barrel requires taking it to 1550 deg. F and more, and then quenching. Then tempering at around 1200 deg. F. Good luck maintaining that beautiful bore you just rifled after a process like that! And good luck keeping it straight! The other main reason for not heat treating after rifling is that all that strain-hardened surface the bore had from the button rifling process is now gone, stress-relieved during the heat soak at 1550 deg. It's been said that the surface of the bore has been measured to as high as nearly Rc 60, and that's in a barrel that's around Rc 30! A bullet traveling through a bore that hard will experience MUCH reduced friction over something even in the Rc 30 range. And you've got a bore that will be extremely wear resistant. There are some other minor reasons but I've written enough! ;-)
Serbu is a funny guy, a crazy genius, and an all around asset to the Freedom of all US citizens. Try to support this fine American in any way you can!
I worked for a while as a blacksmith, I'm one of the few who can appreciate the heat coming out of that kiln. A treasure in winter, a terror in summer.
Much agreed!
I love your videos. I mean no offense, here, you're a smart guy, - you have awesome stage presence, you could be on TV, your personality is awesomely cool humor, and you are very easy to watch & listen to. I love how you comment on the different processes of each step, of what you're doing. You are a blast to watch, & you make me feel in a good mood, thank you.
Mike
Thanks for the kind words!
Mark my only question is if that was synthetic oil or was it a blend ?
It's a special blend called PersiArmeniMex. Kind of like your channel. :-D
"Don't try this at home! Do it at your friend's house"
Man says truth...
"I'm going to go get drunk or something" Best way to make a bad day better!
"I'm going to get drunk or something, this is just terrible"
Mark Serbu's: All Time Best Quotes
In Finland we have a word for extremely troublesome and such things like this, which I personally like very much: "Vittusaatana".
@@Tunkkis Nice, I like it! Thanks!
When quenching a barrel I would suggest vertical entry and agitation rather than horizontal. Watch how a knife blade is done.
When you submerge horizontal like that and agitate the way you did you cause pockets on the back side of your movement as well as the fluid gassing. This will cause the leading edge to cool faster and can greatly increase the amount of distortion you get from heat treatment.
Great Video
Looks like you have very nice shop to work in. That an quality tools makes all the difference in top finished products. Keep the videos coming. Thanks
This is the most entertaining channel I've ever came across its full of danger and comedy
Thank you for recording these. They have inspired me!
to buy like, 10 extra barrels of every caliber I own so I NEVER have to do this myself.Ever.
Royal nonesuch style haha I love it he’d be proud
I had a good laugh watching this video, reminded me of the older Saturday night live days of belly laughter. Loved your video,entertaining as all hell.
Loved the original SNL...watched it from 1978 until it got shitty. Don't remember what year that was.
Thanks Mark for sharing. I enjoy watching all your videos!
I like the fact that you drop the gems of unrelated information in the video randomly lol
I love your work my friend , had me laughing the whole way thru , all the things you do are the things we all seem to do , so easy to relate , cheers big ears
Thanks Mark Serbu, I work in an auto shop and have to press bushings several times a month on a similar 20 ton press that's probably older than both of us! Fun stuff! Would like to get into gunsmithing myself some day 👍
Mark, you are to America what Baguette is to France, Maple syrup to Canada, or Demonetization to UA-cam. Thank you for existing and giving us a glimpse into your daily operations through UA-cam!
Ha, if only that were true. Seeing stuff like that liberal a-hole going nuts in the vape shop the other day makes me glad I'm as old as I am. I think this country is going the way of the whole world...in a very bad direction.
@@markserbu Too true, unfortunately. There are too many god damn people in not enough square miles, and society is breaking down.
@@markserbu agreed it's all going to shit, what juice are you running on the vape ??
I don't vape...was talking about the video that's all over the internet right now. Google: crazy vape shop employee
@@markserbu haha yea saw that yesterday "do my bidding" liberals are complete nutjobs
Just a thought, if you are going to rifle after heat treatment you may want to consider an intercritical heat treatment, sometimes referred to as an intercritical anneal. It will give way, so to speak, much easier thereby reducing the load on the tool while at the same time eliminating the tempering cycle. You do not end up with 100 percent martensite but that is not always necessary. In any event, happy new year to you and yours.
Hadn't heard of intercritical heat treatment but I'll look into it, thanks. Happy New Year!
markserbu It has been used for a long time in other fields. For instance, when the gas crisis hit in the 1970's auto manufacturers had to reduce weight and the thick gauge sheet steel used for the body panels was reduced significantly. They needed to maintain strength for energy absorption and first tried fully hardened (martensitic) sheet steel but found that due to the springback/elasticity of the material the bends and corners did not maintain their shape due to the high elasticity of a fully martensitic structure. Basically the shut lines on the panels would rub together as they moved back once out of the dies. They then decided to go to intercritical steels which had the strength required while maintaining their shape perfectly. As the name implies the material is not heated to the full hardening temperature instead are hardened to a temperature just below that. Specifically between Ac1 and Ac3. The end result is that instead of having the entire material hardened (martensitic) you end up with martensitic 'islands' in a sea of softer ferrite. The result of which is a more malleable material as the soft ferrite yields to the harder spots without wanting to springback. Hardening temps would be in the 1,380 to 1,470 (F) for 4140. The nice part is that you end up with hardnesses in the mid 30's without having to temper afterwards as the soft 'ocean' of ferrite arrests crack propogation. Nevertheless you could rifle before hardening with copious amounts of oil and then harden. Try that first as hardening afterwards would have the ID grow by 1 or 2 ten-thousands which is of no consequence. Later.
Awesome that you take time to make vids like this and others. Thanks Mark
Love the videos I am a mechanic/ machinist.. for past 26 years build some gun stuff and do alot of machine work for a couple gun Smith's locally .. love the sketch factor you bring to the table keep em coming bud
Thank you for including the mistakes and whatnot. Everyone else makes a 30 minute video of the conclusion after days of failure, giving an unrealistic representation and expectation to the viewer.
Your vids are awesome! Thanks so much. I really enjoy watching them, and lots to learn. 🤘
You have a new customer! I LOVE the true American style! It really doesn't have to be fancy or pretty even precise, it just has to work! As a mechanic, the most important tool I have in my box is my air hammer. It's not the proper tool for any job really, but it works for almost every job.
A man of culture 1312
2:37 Ha-ha,I live there!
I live in Ukraine and there's workshop close to me that makes barrels and tools to make them
You can get rifling button for any caliber for like...400-450 grivnas,its about 15-20 dollars
Ed:Im so proud of my country now,its not forgotten at least somewhere ;D
ED2: 4:02 By the way,Ukraine didnt want to be part of USSR....And for Russia Ukraine always was more like sourse of food and resources)
Can you post some to me. I'll pay you. You can make profit, I can make profit, we both win.
👍✅🇺🇦🇳🇿
@@glendunn8881 The concept of Ukraine being a country didn't exist before the USSR.
This was a great video. It was not totally wasted as we all learned from it. Cheers from UK
Mark please show us how to make a rifling button out of a piece of drill rod before the government won't let you do shit. I refer you to HR 7115.Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Great video, really, but I'm no longer motivated to do this, lol. I think I'll just get a few extra barrels and save them for a rainy day. Mark Serbu, you are awesome man. Thanks for being a regular guy and an honest guy that shows us the good and the bad. Hope you got your money back from Slovenia, Germany, Ukraine or wherever it actually came from. Thanks brother. 👍🏼
Thanks for another video. I'm very grateful of you taking the time to share with us :)
Awesome how real you are about it. Guessing the original flame up was from gas that slipped past the rings
I love the way you cobble thing together and make it work, just like the rest of us
They make a copper gauze that you can get to wrap around your flex hone tip, we used it when honing injection barrels for plastic. Our polishing rods were a little different than the one you are using though,ours were nine to ten feet long and the bore on our barrels were two and a half to three inch, but basically the same process.
Mark....LOL Great Video!!! I don't care what anybody else says, you make your videos interesting, informative and most importantly, ENTERTAINING! Thanks buddy, Keep Um Coming! (P.S. The part where you 'Fix' the smoke alarm...Hilarious!!!)
Imagine the round getting its arse torn out through that rifling ... instant bird shot from a 9 mm jacketed round. Thanks for the effort to show the pitfalls Mark.
“It’s almost like they manipulate their currency… I don’t know”😂😂😂 I love you Mark!🤣🤣🤣
Great way to fix a smoke detector....good video.....looking forward to part 3.
Can’t wait for the next video! I just machined my own button a few days ago but haven’t gotten the chance to test it out yet. If those Chinese ones work then I’ll be glad I don’t have to make any more of those buttons
I machined my first button before I'd ever seen a button and I got pretty close. It worked but wasn't great. Even if I were to make one with all that I know now it still wouldn't be worth it of those Chinese buttons are decent at all. So I'm with you for sure.
I have to admit that I haven't learned an awful lot about what to do when making rifled bores, but I have, as sure shit, learned what NOT to do! And I reckon one is just as important as the other, so thanks for that, mate. On to part three.....
Awww, come on mate, dontcha know he's actually making peashooters.
The oil says what? Ha. Thanks Mark for another great vid.
LOVE IT!!! This Old Tony has a brother!
Also I liked your statement about sending a T-shirt to Detroit just thought I would add Detroit native checking in
You're my new favorite. Hands down. I would so love to build firearms!!!
Best part , shooting the fire alarm. I’ve felt like doing that so many times
Great video! Happy New year ,see ya at shot
New to the channel. Playing catchup. I push with old allen wrenches when need arises to make my own tools. Im excited to learn how to make my own button. Regards.
That rifling button was a mess. Not a good idea to push it trough. But i appreciated that you did it anyway for the video.
Mark, you're inspiring!
The vapor sheathe created is called the Leidenfrost effect. There's a bunch of youtube videos displaying it in water.
Well I did get a notification for this video so that’s good. Can’t wait for the next video. And Happy new year Mark I Hope 🤞 it’s a great year for ya
Happy New Year, same to you!
Good flame in oil is a damn decent heat treat is the sign of a nice hardened steel, alot of the old black smiths over here use only old engine oil,
This is one of the greatest most real videos ever.
Happy New year!
I bought one of the Chinese buttons from Ebay to build Professor Parabellum's sheet metal derringer model 3 and it worked smooth as a baby's bottom. I'm not done with the build yet because I'm waiting on music wire for the main spring, but when I complete it I'll post a video.
I just got in several of those...can't wait to use them! Seem to be very nice quality and the price is absurdly low. What steel did you use for your barrel?
@@markserbu According to the plans it says use 12 mm mild steel bar, so I stopped at a tractor supply and picked up what I thought was a grade 5 bolt with a 1/2 inch diameter, now that I looked the only markings on the head is H E R and I can't find any info on its tensile strength, so I may scrap it and start over.
Good day, what is the working diameter of your Chinese button?
I have made .22 barrels out of mild steel with no more than 3mm chamber wall thickness, a 12mm round stock bar will be fine
@@hammerbutton4542 5.6 mm is what I used. www.ebay.com/itm/5-5-11-43mm-Rifling-Button-6-Grooves-Tungsten-Steel-Chamber-Helical-Reamer-Tool/312142699625?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS---THANKS YOU HAVE SAVED ME ALOT OF MONEY
“You’re not going to beat me”…. That’s my life motto!!!
One more helpful hint is get a air jack to put on your press. Makes the job so much easier.
What kind of reamer are you using before the rifling? I see many different kinds when i look them up. are they bore specific or caliber specific?
love your videos! Keep up the good work , even though it is frustrating :-D
Im not into guns but that was a
really really really good demonstration of tenacity and skill nice work Dude
As a blacksmith I use leftover restaurant grease instead of motor oil or quenching oil. There's a bit of smoke, but it smells like french fries. You can also get a slightly harder quench because it's thinner, not much harder, but a bit. I use this on blades, the hardened parts for a flintlock or percussion lock ( I'm a gun builder/gun nut too). I make all kinds of tools, from my own rasps and files to my own cutters and reamers for a hand forged wrought iron barrel. I'm not on UA-cam, but if you want to see a good representation of what I do, watch "the gunsmith of Williamsburg" that will show ya how we used to do it.
Cheap rifling buttons from ebay or aliexpress that are made from solid carbide with TiN are well made and much cheaper.
0:55 The super low shipping rates are due to US subsidies (USPS) and in a roundabout way the American tax payer.
In 2011, the U.S. Postal Service made special agreements with the national postal carriers of China and Hong Kong (and subsequently South Korea and Singapore) to allow tracking-enabled packages not exceeding 36” or weighing over 4.4 pounds to be sent to the U.S. for extremely low rates. They called this shipping option the ePacket, and the rates are so low that it’s cheaper to ship small parcels from China to an American city than it is to send that same parcel domestically.
Good afternoon Mark, tell me you previously made the barrel by this method using the button?
If so, what buttons did you use?
Your method is certainly good, but for 100 dornings, it is not correct, for forging, yes, it is ideal.
Since after quenching the metal loses its plasticity.
Many people see your method and repeat it and break half of the buttons, even if they do not break the barrel will not be true.
If the working part of the button is 9.05, then inside with the hardened billet, at best, 8.95 is from personal experience and this is already an unfit barrel.
Yes, maybe our first buttons didn’t look very good, but it was a working tool, now the equipment is replaced and the buttons look perfect and also work, so it doesn’t mean that they are crap, just a little wrong method.
Also in Google there is a lot of information about thick-walled daring, the thicker the walls of the workpiece, the better the result, but obviously the metal should be raw, and after the button should be heat treated.
Tomorrow I will send a new button and we look forward to a result that will surprise everyone.
thank
respectfully
In my first rifling video I used a button made by Danjon. They've been in business since 1950 and have made rifling buttons for all the major U.S. firearm manufacturers.
I'm looking forward to receiving your new button and will give it a fair test!
@@markserbu I honestly wondered why you would harden and heat treat before trying to push another hardened piece of steel through, maybe its the proper way in a factory but with some bent tool with un uniform cuts what were you thinking?
@customizing guncollector Give me $300.
Why not rifle the blank while it is "soft", heat treat it THEN re-rifle it to get the final size?
Speedy Mercer did you not see the amount of black scale that was on the barrel blanks when they came out of the oven after hardening? Then it would have been almost as bad again, after the half hour in the oven during tempering. This scale would also form on the bore as well. If you were to rifle the barrel before the harden and tempering process the dimensions of the bore less all that scale and crap would be well oversized.
@@samrodian919 that's why I asked, I didn't know.
God I love this series. I would like to learn more specifically about heat treating gun parts though. I’ve been learning about heat treating tools and other stuff, but I’d like to learn more about heat treatment specifically in regard to gun parts. Maybe one of the next videos can cover a bit more of the specifics?
There's definitely a lot of misinformation out there on heat treating, but it's really fairly simple. The big ASTM book on heat treating is a good source and is available online. Sorry I don't have a link.
Interesting video, I wonder if there is enough torsional load on the button, especially a longer one, to cause the break? I would guess as the button moves forward it kind off relieves some of that but is it enough? I'm imagining some kind of sleeve the barrel rides in that is supported by bearings allowing it to turn if this is a concern and possibly pushing the barrel into the button as a solution.
"this wins biggest POS award I think I'm gonna go get drunk or something" hahaha I love this
Don't feel bad, I bought the same button a while back and got the same results. I even tried blending a "proprietary" lube and pushing the button through a larger-than-saami spec bore!
I have had success with cut rifling. I rigged up a "home depot" rifling system that uses a mandrel (aluminum dowel) embedded with a carbide tipped sawzall blade (I used a dremel to cut 3 teeth out of the blade and I also cut a slot into the mandrel to hold the cutter, which can be shimmed to adjust cutting depth). The mandrel is embedded into a larger wooden dowel that fits perfectly inside the I.D. of a PVC pipe. On the PVC pipe I "programmed" a 1 in 10 twist by using a dremel to cut the helix pattern. After installing the wooden dowel in the PVC pipe, I partially sink a screw into it, which guides the mandrel along the programmed path. As long as you aren't taking too deep of a cut, you can manually cut the rifling by hand. You can index the barrel to add as many lands/grooves as you prefer. The rifling will be pretty shallow and won't hold up over time, but it definitely works when I range-tested it (even with just a single groove cut).
I still wish these buttons worked better though. I know TheIdahoanShow
has successfully button rifled and built a nifty hydraulic press: ua-cam.com/video/nq2Bc2WDsLA/v-deo.html
Dear friend do not be fooled, Mark used not quite the right methods, and the new video will prove that our buttons are the best, give a photo of the broken button that you broke?
I'll send you a new one if it's our fault.
I will give above a photo of our button work which was done a week ago.
this is the video you put in there.
ibb.co/w02s8C2
ibb.co/5847FwF
photos in the links is the work of our button a week ago, subject to all recommendations☺This is incomparable to the result of your video！
I felt your pain when you broke the parallels.
Despite all the bad comments below, I believe the right way of learning is thru the failed experiments, thanks for sharing this with us...
I always chuckle when I hear a hydraulic press release 😂
"Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
Believe this I made a rifler out of a spiral reamer for a 42 in muzzle loader rifle barrel and I use pieces of metal about a foot long with push rod hole in them a couple thousands bigger than my push rods and stack those in pipes to keep them in line and when I ran out of push rod I just added another and a metal guide around it and press it on through and made a buetiful rifle barrel. I used a two foot hydrolic cylinder that works. That's hook to air compressor so there's no hand pumping. I think I will make a extension so it will just press straight through next time. The reason for the pieces around the push rod for the button rifler was to keep the push rod from bending and at the end of the barrel I put a tray with clothe to catch the button when it comes out. And please spray your barrel hole with good oil like Lucas oil and blow it in the open end with a air gun and lube it really good and that will work really well and give you good results. From a friend to a friend. Don't temper your barrel until you button rifle it that way you are rifleing softer metal.
Can you make the rifling before the heat treatment?it would be a lot easier i think if it is possible
There will be a problem with the quality(translation)
@@3dcreate117 you mean warping?
Would it be easier to first rifling, chamber and after that hardening? why you do hardening first?
And I always aneal metal and shape it before tempering makes it lots easier
Quench vertically not horizontal to minimise distortion.
Mark you scare me but this is awesome!!!!!!!
If you haven't gotten your quench oil yet use canola and preheat it before you quench. Works great for knives.
I love how haphazard this is. It's like it speaks to me.
With that being said, I am surprised that you are still alive.
Mark! You NEED to have either the button or the barrel be able to turn freely! Make a barrel rest with a ball bearing. Without this, the button cannot follow it's twist rate! And yes, those HSS buttons are crap, use carbide ones, sometimes you even find chinese 9x19 ones that have the right specs(8,82mm od), most times they send you a 9x18 makarov one labeled as 9mm.
Beside that, You gotta play with the ID of the barrel, every material and button has it's sweetspot. It all depends on the twist rate, groove count and the detailed geometry of the button. I used to start rifling with a wider Barrel blank and see how it goes, this way you can touch your way forward to the right specs without destroying the button. However, most important is that the setup can rotate freely while pressing. One more thing is, a press that supports "hammering" in small steps is better than a continous pressing motion.
I've made numerous barrels with button rifling, and it's a pretty hard thing to do exactly right, especially because there is so little info on all the details. I use 40Crmo for the blanks, unhardened and found it to be the best for short barrels in pistol calibres.
Thanks for another fun video. My guess is based on how far out of round it was when you spun it at the beginning is that jump between the pilot and the button made it bind and barrel forcing in to straight is what broke it. Also, a dumb question, but would it be easier and could you get acceptable results putting in the rifling before you harden it?
You know good and well we have to try it.
I liked this video for one reason, I laughed my ass off ! 😂
13:44 - Good instructional for the fellas out there. Start nice and easy (but still assertive and laying down the law), then after 2-3 minutes you can go ahead and get down to the rough stuff. That's how they like it.
Lost in translation!
Trunks = barrels
6 fields = 6 lands
6 rifling = 6 grooves
No way in hell I would have used that Ukrainian button after seeing it. I would take my chances making one on the mill. Or a set of progressively deeper cutting buttons to be used in series. Thanks for taking one for the team.
I will confess that I had a mini anxiety attack watching you quench in a plastic bucket. There are metal ones. Yeah they got them. An old steel cooking pot from the goodwill works fine, and if you are really slick and a fast talker, you can walk out with a perfectly matched lid, as well.
Used motor oil isn't THAT bad for quenching. You aren't making a $2k custom straight razor. I would filter it and heat it, though. Says the guy with a unopened 5 gallon pail of Park 50 LOL. But I do hope that some day soon you upgrade your quenchant container. And get a new smoke alarm. And quench outdoors.
I have never made a barrel from scratch, but I had always assumed that for a pistol barrel, one would first bore and ream and rifle, and then harden and temper, with a final polish in the bore. But I am more used to working with harder stuff and 30RC is maybe not so hard to work with. So thanks for showing me that you can actually heat treat before rifling.
You really need a jig of some sort for your press, even just a block of steel drilled for the barrel.
Cant wait for the next video
Yeah, can't wait!
I was pretty depressed over the whole video, then you shot the smoke alarm.
Good deal!
Glad I could help! People (well, "regular" people) tend to overlook the cathartic effect of a little violence upon an inanimate object!
You gotta put some molybdenum paste on the button otherwise it will gall and friction weld itself to the barrel blank pretty much instantly.
I did that...moly grease.
Well looking forward for part 3! Those rifling buttons from china do look good. I would like to know if they are any good. Some confusion about their true caliber. The 9 mm looks to be 9 mm makarov, and the 7.62 is that .310 or .308? Is there a 9 mm parabellum button from china?
Greetings!
Watching part one made me think. Could you use high pressure grease behind the button to push it through?
Entertaining and informative video. Mark, would you mind telling me about your background?
Thanks. Background? That would take a while! Do you mean just my shop background?
A "Trunk" is the shaft that you build into a barrel. It is a thick, cylindrical item similar to the trunk of a tree. Thus calling it a "Trunk"
Thanks for sharing!
Mark, As I understand it there are three ways to rifle a barrel. Button rifling, hammer forging, and cut rifling. I would think that hammer forging would require some very sophisticated and expensive equipment. But cut rifling would require much simpler stuff. Old-time gunsmiths pulled the cutters by hand, so the process sounds like it would not be dangerous.
Also, there is an outfit selling chambered barrel liners and adapters on EBay.
There's also broaching and ECM. Believe it or not, button rifling is the easiest. Wait until my next video...you'll see.
Having done cut rifling, can confirm, it sucks. It’s okay for large bore stuff (like cannons) where the button rifling would take huge buttons and hundreds of tons, but for small arms, I’d avoid it.
@@markserbu can't wait for your next video! Thanks mark
This guy is awesome
in russian trunk and barrel are the same word
Not really...In russian there's a lot of words that look and sound same,but mean different things :D
Think its really funny reading comments with a bunch of ppl chritisizing how hes doing things when he clearly states why hes doing it that way and on top of it has a thorough description lol people these days, but all in all great video keep it up.
I need a drink after watching that and waiting for it to snap and fly lol