Thanks for all the support on the video, it's been my best peforming one so far! Im not from Manchester and don't have a super in-depth understanding of the system, but im hoping to bring more light to stuff like this. Working hard to get some more videos out soon :)
Manchester Metrolink, why not build a subway? 1017am 9.1.25 how are they on lost property? tried to report a lost time yesterday and was sent from pillar to post trying to get it logged... probably to no avail.
It's ridiculous that a city the size of Manchester with a metro population approaching 3 million isn't already thinking of building a mass-rapid transit system. Trams are great, but there's only so many new lines and extensions you can build before you stretch the system beyond its limits. A comparable city such as Lyon in France which has 4 metro lines, 7 tram lines and 26 high frequency bus lines. Seeing how rapidly Manchester is growing, and how densely populated the centre is becoming with all those new highrises, it only makes sense start thinking ahead and provide a mass rapid transit system that can complement and provide relief for existing core metrolink services. We need to think about 50 years down the line, not just the next decade.
metrolink is perfectly adequate, it brightened up certain superbs in manchester (wythenshawe, rochdale) and besides the subway would take ages and what would happen to the existing inferstructure?
In Germany, there are pre-metros like in Manchester which have sections on their own site, underground sections and sections shared with road traffic (like a standard tramway)
Nice work finding that "You can't have this until at least 1975" comment. There is a lot of that going on around the UK. Crossrail was proposed about 100 years before it was built. Thamslink 2000 didn't get done until about 2020. A dodgy company tried to get Crossrail replaced by an Oxford Street Monorail, at one point. There have been over twenty attempts to get the Bakerloo Line extended. So even in London (where allegedly the population is "high enough") people jump in the way of these sorts of projects and attempt to block other people from having good things. Things do change in cities. Sometimes something is needed, but changes mean it is no longer needed. However, that is really rare.What seem to happen with transport projects in cities is that people who dislike public transport first try to block them from happening. Then, when people ask again, the people who dislike public transport always argue that the thing isn't necessary and that studies need to be made. Studies burn up the money of local councils. (Doing lots of studies, instead of a few studies, increases the cost of doing things and the time needed to implement improvements.) Then, after something finally gets approved, anti-transport people argue against the design (after money has been spent on planning) and try to reduce the investment needed to build the project. (This often does not save money as the plans need to be redone if you change things.) Then the thing gets built and is much more successful than predicted. Then it needs to be upgraded to cope with more passengers. And that ends up costing more than doing things the right way in the first place. This was a good video. I hope you get noticed by people who make public transport infrastructure and get invited to meet some people who build things like this one day. We need trams to return to a lot more UK cities. But we also need to be honest and call them "trams". Trams have a lower capacity than "metros", but a better capacity than buses. Transport planners should always be looking at the demand first, then taking future proofing into account, and then choosing what type of vehicles to use. People like you (who like public transport and who want to explain it to people who like watching videos) need to figure out what sort of things (like sports stadiums, exhibition centres or concert venues) are in a transport corridor, so you can make a good guess on when buses, trams, metro systems or heavy rail would be the best long term solution. Keep an eye on the South West Metro. They are going to be operating tram-trains, that work normally on railway lines, but which can go through streets on tram lines too. That's an interesting choice by the Welsh government. You might want to take a visit when it is up and running.
Thanks for advice, I saw a video from TFW about the South Wales Metro progress a few weeks ago. I will try to cover it, but can't find a precice date for opening yet. It's definitely a shame that cities that are outside of the south-east get barly any attention with public transport.
Most of those projects you mentioned were for London. The perennial problem….if the UK govt has enough money for some major transit expenditure they weigh up “which project will be used by the most people” and so London ALWAYS gets the money. Doesn’t help that there is no real devolved power in England (are no States or Provinces such as in US, Canada, Australia…who have the financial power to build and fund their own systems in their regions), all major UK investment decisions are made by the central government…which is based in London, who rely on Londoner votes… Think of the last major government spending over last few decades across England….jubilee line, CrossRail, Elizabeth Line, HS2….all London! The level of efficient (Ie not buses) public transit in UK cities outside of London is embarrassingly bad for a supposed wealthy country. Birmingham, the 2nd largest city, has 2 tram lines of approx 20km total…which is awful (😀😀😀…LA, arguably the most car centric city in the world has a tram / subway network of 175 km…8 times that of Birmingham. I am ex UK but live in Perth Australia…we have a smaller population than the West Midlands (2m v 3m) but have 180km of commuter rail… The UK’s 2nd city relies on “last mile” (the last few stops of trains heading into New Street from the regions) of regional rail services - and on buses. Laughably outdated, slow, dirty…. It gets worse…city of Liverpool has no trams at all, no metro, relies entirely on a piecemeal “last mile” rail and buses. I sense most of the UK population don’t appreciate how bad it is - they don’t know any different. And londoners don’t care how bad it is in other cities…so long as they get the next wedge of money (again)
Lots of tunnels under Manchester, in 1971 I was an apprentice telephone engineer, GPO, now British telecom, I remember once going down a man hole in city centre, (with the engineer I was shadowing) not far from river Irwell, at the bottom of the manhole were some heavy timbers with iron rings set in them, lifted two timbers the went down iron spiral stairs , came down a few feet onto a proper cobbled street, it was bricked up at the sides and a long brick arch above, don’t remember really exploring this, I was told that many years ago this would have run down to the edge of the river Irwell and as the city developed and the river embankments were built up to today’s level, some of these old , narrow streets were brick over rather than filled in. You can see old “barred openings “ halfway up the embankments nowadays
We really need to get over this thing of UK rail projects being scuppered because the population is smaller than London. We build fat motorways all over the UK, and a motorway bridge over a big river is expensive wherever it is built. But whenever investment needs to be made in trains, some MPs who don't live in that area, start arguing that the investment will not be paid back in increased passenger revenue. Public transport is not just about how many people live somewhere or work somewhere. It is also about how many people from outside the area descend on an area because something like a football match is happening. Things like football matches happen all over the UK. And that leads to large numbers of visitors trying to travel from one place in the UK to another place in the UK and they all need to arrive at the venue before the event they are attending starts. So sporting events and concerts cause massive surges in demand on public transport. And the public transport system needs to be able to cope with surges proportional to the capacity of entertainment venues. Now Metrolink (which is not a "metro" - it's a tram system cosplaying as a metro) can not easily increase the frequency of trams through the city centre because pedestrians do actually need to be able to cross roads that trans run through. So the success of the system means there is a conflict that is creating a maximum capacity for the city. If a tunnel was put through the central section and the trams ran on streets in the outer sections that had less pedestrians, it would make tram travel through Central Manchester a lot faster and safer and give the streets back to pedestrians and bikes. Space would also be filled up for something like a street market to be run (if that was desirable).
I've lived in Manchester my whole life and I love the metrolink, it's so useful for getting around! The lack of automatically opening doors has always seemed odd to me though, glad I'm not the only one haha Love the video, great work
It'd be interesting if they built a tram tunnel like what many tram systems in mainland Europe (especially German but also some Austrian & Swiss "Stadtbahnen") have, but I doubt they'll get the money to do that
The Metrolink is by far the greatest thing to happen to Manchester in the last 100 years, apart from the success of the 2 Manchester football teams. Its brilliant and getting further expansion to Stockport, Middleton, Bolton and Wigan will enhance it even more.
A nicely shot, well educated video! I do think what Manchester needs are two circular lines that meet on Wilmslow Rd and through to in town. Willow Rd id the world's busiest bus corridor. Well it's ridiculously busy anyway. One circle to serve west and north. The other east and south. It'd give new quicker routes to areas not served like Rusholme and Moss Side. It would link up the bus stations, metro lines and trains. You wouldn't need to going town and then out which would be good for local growth. You could be in places like Dunham Massey, Tatton Park in 20 minutes from the city centre which would increase tourism and health benefits. 78,000 going in and out of Old Trafford, plus the Cricket, concerts, and I suppose City is a huge clog of people trying to get into town just to leave it again. There's a huge mix of diverse areas in 'Greater Manchester' that you can only access via a car. If it's not London it doesn't generally get built. It'd never happen. Ideally Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds and Newcastle should have something similar.
The Arndale Shopping Centre was future proofed for the Pic Vic. A station box was excavated beneath the centre during construction and remains accessible.
Thanks for the really interesting video. I wrote about light rail/trams for my dissertation many years ago. I had suggested that trams were better than a subway, due to there being no need for tunnels and underground stations, and the perceived safety of tram stops because they were in the open. Nowadays, I support the idea of turning the Metrolink into a subway/metro. I accept that safety at tram stops will have changed due to changes in the levels of crime, so subway stations with CCTV and security guards patrolling the stations should improve passenger safety. Furthermore, they should help to improve capacity. One final thought: I saw in a book (published over 40 years) that included a plan to build two railway lines, one linking Victoria Station to Central Station and a line linking Piccadilly to the north-west of the city. Albert Square would have been the site of the interchange. What a pity these schemes never went ahead (Ditto with the Picc-Vic).
cars always have to give way to the trams and they come every 6 mins outside the city centre which is perfectly fine, also if it was a subway i wouldnt be able to bump it
Nice video. It occurs to me that Manchester would be an ideal place for an S-Bahn. The classic S-bahn system is built out of existing lines that spread out in different directions from the city, and Greater Manchester has plenty of those, that all funnel together into a "Stammstrecke" - that is a tunnel under the city centre with a very high frequency of trains. As expensive as this is, it's mostly about making use out of existing infrastructure - i.e. all the routes that can't be used as much as they could because it's too congested in the city centre, rather than building a whole new metro system as larger cities would do. Here in Stuttgart, which I guess is about half the size of Manchester, the S-Bahn has 6 lines each running every 15 minutes with 140 or 200m long trains - that's a train every 2.5 minutes in the city centre underground stations. And this is in addition to the Stadtbahn - the Stadtbahn being roughly the same as the Metrolink (yellow too) as a mixture of tram and light railway (although the Stadtbahn too mostly disappears underground in the city centre). German cities invested in these systems in the 70s and 80s and reap the rewards today and for decades to come - it's hard to imagine anything different. You can imagine how something similar would be a quantum leap for Manchester.
That's essentially what the Elizabeth Line in London is. It uses a bunch of existing lines outside the city core and has new tunnels in the centre and links everything together. Manchester really does need this. The population is growing quite rapidly and what we have right now is not going to be able to cope. It can just about cope with it right now but falls over quite often when there's extra strain on for say large events.
@@leek6927 The problem with all the trains we already have is that they all share the same incredibly overcrowded track space. There's been hardly any expansion of rail outside of London for over a century. The station approaches at both Victoria and Piccadilly have essentially the same capacity they did in 1890 (modern signalling helps there of course but that only goes so far). We have the fast trains to that go down to London and up to Glasgow that take up huge headways which reduces the number of slower and more frequent services we can run. HS2 is designed to release much of that capacity... assuming it ever gets reinstated then actually built. A high capacity, regular, fully segregated metro system would do wonders for all traffic in the whole region. It doesn't all have to be in tunnels, just under the urban cores like the London Underground is. Most of the Underground is actually over ground, and most of the Overground is actually under ground lol. The ideal solution would be a metro that does all the heavy lifting, with trams linking all those areas in between then the busses picking up extra capacity or serving the areas it makes no real sense to run a dedicated set of tracks and all that come with it. It'll take years and be expensive, but it isn't beyond our capability. The problem is nobody wants to pay for it and the place with all the money wants to spend it on itself. London. We need to put massive investment into all of our city regions with better infrastructure which will bring with it more outside investment because it'll make it quicker and easier for people to get to and from work, and to move goods around etc. It'll also improve the diversity of the economy rather than relying almost entirely on the finance sector which only exists in The City and Canary Wharf. Two infinitely tiny spits of land relative to the size of the country they're in. When the finance sector goes down the tubes so does the UK economy.
That’s what they’re basically doing in Dublin. Currently there is one S Bahn like service hugging the coast for 53km and transiting through the city centre overground / elevated rail called the DART. Then there is two tram / LRT (one of the lines has a lot of grade separation due to being an old rail line with pre metro capacities) of 40km. The plan is to upgrade two commuter lines to S Bahn level. Electrification, level crossing closures, new stations, use of old freight tunnels to connect the main two train stations…all in all there will be 200km of S Bahn services over 4 lines (the current line will be split in two). Add to that the construction of a Metro line from the north of the city through the airport and the city centre. This will link in with the LRT and S Bahn lines at various spots including a brand new rail hub in the north of the city centre. Adding in further LRT expansion & in 10 years the rail system will have 2.5x capacity and cover a significant amount more of ground than it does currently. The advantage of LRT is the ability to segment lines to create new journeys, that is challenging when it is the backbone of your commuter system like in a Manchester or Dublin currently.
@@GlobeSync1 It's an accessibility feature for disabled passengers, so not widely advertised. Apparently you can also hold down the button (on some modern vehicles) to stop one set of doors from auto-closing after a few seconds. I believe that is something to help wheelchair users avoid having the doors slam on them, while they are maneuvering out of the door.
Manchester should Built a light rail Tunnel in the City Centre Here in germany Many Cities have them Duisburg Düsseldorf essen mühlheim Frankfurt Köln Dortmund And Many more
I think I once heard that the Manchester Underground was at least partially built, and there's bits of infrastructure which apparently are part of it. Not sure how true that is, or if I just dreamed it. All I do know is that the current options are the hugely congested tram links through Piccadilly Gardens or the horribly underused (and hugely expensive) Ordsall Chord for the overground trains. For what it's worth, the Metrolink is fine. Yes, there are bits that are not so great, like where the trams steal a track from the Manchester to Chester line at Navigation Road, causing bottlenecks for both (not a problem with the trains, but the 12 minute tram service is a pain) and almost all of the run on the Ashton line which gets snarled up with the general traffic on Ashton New Road. And they really do need to get a move on with the tram-train option, which Sheffield has been running out to Rotherham for a while now. Getting the Glossop line moved to trams would be a big win at least, although the mess with the tracks over the Dinting Viaduct would need sorting out. I still don't know why it goes down to a single track going into the wonderfully triangular Dinting station, and they'll probably need to re-lay the second tracks from Dinting to Glossop and Hadfield - again, not a massive problem for hourly trains, but a regular tram service would see this lock up pretty badly. Oh, and the barely used line from Stalybridge to Stockport would be a massive win, bringing both into the network along with Denton and Reddish (although it would need something running to Stalybridge, so best get a move on with the extension of the Ashton line!) Oh, and a circular route that links the outlying suburbs, so you don't have to go into town if you're going between them
This video is really well put together, and you kept the info concise as well, didn't feel like you were reading off of a script for majority of the video, nice work. Yes, the Metrolink has many problems right now. One thing is that the north doesn't get as much funding for transport compared to London. A subway would be nice, but it would be much more efficient and easier to improve the current network instead of beginning another separate project. The Metrolink also can't really be extended anymore and operate well without extra vehicles. There are overcrowding issues often on the Bury and Altrincham Lines. Every line and route meets in he city centre at some point as well (which I think you mentioned briefly in the video). Pretty much every tram gets delayed after passing through the city centre. A metro tunnel has been proposed for the future between Old Trafford (ish) and Piccadilly station which might help with congestion issues at central parts of the network. There are loads of things I want to mention, but I'll just press enter before I lose control of my hands Your camerawork and editing is also quite good for 100 subscribers. You definitely deserve all the attention this video gets. Commitment to travel from Bristol to up here :)
Thanks! Especially after riding on the Elizabeth Line a few times, I think the North is really poorly served by transport. Probably the biggest weakness of Metrolink (in my opinion) is that there is not enough space above the ground to expand in such a large city.
There's actually a lot of opportunities for extensions, more than you might have expected, but I won't list them all (unless you ask!) The network just cannot expand because it's having a hard time as it is now
It's a while since I was last in Manchester, but assuming nothing has changed, there is one very simple thing I think they got wrong (on this and other tram systems in Britain). It's the horn. It sounds like a normal vehicle horn (albeit loud - a lorry maybe). And that is going to be ignored by a lot of people in cars, as they will just think of it as coming from another road vehicle. If they'd used the traditional tram bell, everyone would instantly know a tram was coming, and get out of the way. I was a bit shocked when I first heard a tram horn, having lived in a city with trams which have bells in the past. And you very soon get used to clearing out of the way when you hear that distinctive bell.
Honestly for how much a metro system costs it’s not worth it. It takes 30 about minutes to get from Ashton under lyne to the city centre. That money would be far better spent on a circular line connecting the outer towns on the system and increased capacity at peak hours imo
A circular line connecting the towns is something planned for the future, but likely would not have been able to happen without the network we have now. Connecting surrounding areas to the city centre of Manchester brings in more money for the Metrolink than a circular line connecting Ashton, Oldham, and Stockport would for example. The Ashton Line is one of the slower Metrolink lines as well! The Bury Line is longer in track, and it takes 24 mins. The Altrincham takes 22, the East Didsbury takes 21, the Trafford Centre takes 21, the Eccles takes 20, and from Oldham it takes 20. I left out the Airport Line because its construction purpose was slightly different (it's quite slow though), and Rochdale because it has a 15 min train connection. Ashton also has a 15 min train connection. Droylsden and Audenshaw and Clayton do not, which is why the tram line was built.
The long term plan is to connect the "spokes" up with a "wheel", or something similar. An actual loop line isn't very good for reliability though so I imagine they'd have sections that link up but not have a single service do an actual circle, if that makes sense. They'd need to build quite a lot of new track for that, most of what exists now is old alignments that still existed. They replaced the track and electrified it of course but they didn't need to build many new permanent ways. There are still quite a few alignments they could use to link bits up but a lot of if will need to be brand new and thus expensive.
A metro would massively increase capacity, how do you plan to significantly increase the capacity of the metrolink without converting it into a metro or premetro?
The metro is the jewel in the crown of Manchester's public transport system. Before its introduction, the options were pretty dire. Any further expansion would be a boon for the region. I hope you enjoyed your visit. How does it compare to Bristol's offerings?
Metrolink is nice but it's starting to struggle as the city grows. A proper subway would have been an expensive investment back in the 70's but would have benefitted the city in the long run. Manchester will likely have to build one anyway in the next 20 years or so, especially if Greater Manchester plans on adding a million or so people in that period. On the plus side driverless train technology has come a long way, so some aspects will be easier now.
@@GlobeSync1would they be able the existing trams underground? Or is there something stopping that, as what I would do is make a tunnel for just the core section and then go above ground after that and run on the existing routes which I think are on dedicated rights of way anyway. Then it would be like the Tyne and Wear metro which I would consider good, to me that seems to make far more sense than making a disconnected system which wouldn’t be helpful anyway if you want to go anywhere but the CBD
I think one of the reasons they didn’t do an underground metro is because the soil conditions would make it really expensive, I’m not sure if that would still be the case although it would be really expensive anyway because if the useless government
Maybe? I'm probably not the best person to ask that question but I think it could be a possibility. A bit like the Elizabeth Line which has to run as a subway in the core underground, then as a long distance train out to Shenfield, Reading and other parts. But maybe the current tram stock wouldn't be capable of operating underground services.
There are no traffic flows large enough in the Manchester metropolitan area that could support the enormous cost of a tunnelled metro system. What could work is short underpasses at key places to speed up tram services rather than flat junctions everywhere.
Exactly right. That's what the Ashton Line did in places, and others in comments are suggesting an entirely underground system, but that is just not efficient and cost will outweigh benefit if the Metrolink were to be replaced.
There are, and will be. The population of Manchester itself is set to double in the next decade. The tram system we currently have is at capacity on any given day, and you see just how badly it handles even smaller events like a football match. We need a subway system or heavy commuter rail lines on their own tracks. Trams aren't a mass transit solution, they're used in place of busses where they need the extra capacity but they can't be a replacement for a proper metro. We need a Crossrail for the north, basically, something to link up the big population hubs in the region of Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford and Leeds with connections to Sheffield. The approach at Piccadilly is still the same as it was over 100 years ago, it's a huge bottleneck for ALL train traffic through the area. HS2 was going to help out with that but who knows when or if we'll ever see that come to fruition after Sunak cancelled the northern leg. Hopefully with the devolved transportation plans for the regions Labour are suggesting we might see something actually happen where multiple city regions can combine their resources and do something that integrates across county lines. Before then you need to rely on central government and we all know what the treasury is like about spending money outside of the M25 lol.
@@tramographyMCR There isn't much that can be done capacity wise really. It's limited by what it is. The only way you can really improve it is by making it entirely separate from all other traffic (including pedestrians) so nothing can get in the way of its operation, and to be able to more quickly stop and start for more regular service. The current rolling stock just isn't designed for that. Basically we want something like the Victoria Line in London. Every 90 seconds on the busiest parts of the network. That frequency is how you get capacity and you can only achieve that on dedicated track. If we do end up building a proper metro it has the potential to be a total game changer for the region if properly integrated with other transit modes. Obviously the main train stations would be linked up, but also the bigger bus stations or ones in important locations like Middleton. Imagine the investment these places would get from the outside now its so much easier to get around the place from further afield?
@@tramographyMCR The problem is the city centre is a choke point for the whole system. It can take just as long for a tram to cross it than it takes to get there from the terminus. It's slow and congested because trams have to work around cars, pedestrians and cyclists. If the tracks between Piccadilly, Deansgate and Victoria were underground "pre-metro" style, that would help a lot, and further sections could be tunneled as the budget allows, until you have a situation similar to Stuttgart, Karlsruhe or Hannover. That's one option, another would be to build a new automated metro line between the highest density areas of the city, and perhaps hook it up to some of the grade separated Metrolink lines and convert them to light metro.
If the government hadn’t scrapped the Picc-Vic underground plan in the mid 1970s we could have had a rail subway network like Merseyside and Newcastle. Metrolink is ok but there are too many incidents of unruly behaviour and thuggish behaviour on the trams. I still prefer the bus to Bury and the Airport as I don’t feel safe on the trams, especially after dark.
You could never have automated trams on, for instance, the branch that goes to Media City and Eccles. Automation is not possible, even if the city centre section were underground.
The Thameslink 2000 solved that problem. The central core uses automatic operation to get vehicles through as fast as possible and as close together as possible. Outside of the core, that is switched off and the drivers take back control. The same sort of thing could be done with trams. The automation does not replace the tram driver. It just boosts the number of trams you can get through the central tunneled section, per hour.
High Floor Pre-Metro style LRT which my home city of Edmonton as well as Manchester has is almost good enough to rival the best driverless metro systems around the world however the downtown metro project proposed way back then should still go ahead. These type of central downtown artery tunnels are expensive however they are very long term investments that pay dividends for future generations not having to pay for them later on... Just ask Calgary what the cost of deferring tunnels downtown leads to... ;-)
Another thing is that a subway system would not only cost billions but also means lots of traffic issues with roads being constantly dug up. It would be a nightmare.
That's the "cut and cover" method which the Tube used when it opened in 1863 but tunnel boring machines would be used if they wanted to build a subway now.
@@stevenblood1284 Ofc, Im just saying that the cut and cover method would not be used anymore, it is a very inefficient and inconvient way of digging a tunnel.
@@stevenblood1284 There was more traffic on the roads in London in 1863 than there is now. Thats why they built train lines under ground. There's absolutely no way we'd use the cut and cover method today when building a metro line under a major city. They'd use a TBM as we've used since the first deep level tube line in 1890. The whole point of which was to avoid having to dig anything up and cause traffic problems.
as someone who lives in Manchester I agree with you. from what I heard the trams were getting extended to Bolton but that got cancelled for reasons I do not know. the public transport in Manchester are very poor especially northern on the Walkden line and the bee network. buses that are in the bee network sector are really poor buses don't come on time we have to wait every 20 mins for a bus or even up to half hour or even up to an hour if delayed I have a friend who works for the bee network hand he said to me I think the bee network in general is diabolical. great video though.
I think Bolton was put on the back burner because there's already regular train services there. Kind of why (well, one of the reasons) the London Underground doesn't serve much south of the Thames. There are already a bunch of commuter rail services down there that do the trick. That and it's mostly waterlogged gravel rather than the easy to cut through clay on the north. But that's not really relevant to this lol.
Solid videos, consider spending a bit of time learning how to make a proper nice thumbnail and I reckon you'll do great with these 👍 something like RMtransit's thumbnails, with your own style that will be nice and recognisable
Thanks for the advice! I used to do that a bit (though not very well), but found that simple clean thumbnails like the one on this video work really well. Though for my next video I will try UA-cam's A/B thumbnail tester to see what style works better.
Manchester should have an underground. However the government does NOT authorise the funding. England is London centric. 100 times per head of population is spent on London than Manchester. Cross rail, HS2, Eurostar and additional underground stations. . . etc. Stockport is not connected by the metro link.
I agree, also England being London centric when it comes to transport (and lots of other things) could not be more true. I use the Elizibeth line and Eurostar a lot, and cities that are not in the south-east deserve that stuff.
It wont be good idea for a subway since it goes to popular areas where it stops if you add those stops there it will cause traffic on cars when its building.
And then when it's built, fewer people will need to use their cars because it'll be more convenient to just get on the metro. We need to change our mindset of driving everywhere, and we need to build cities where you don't NEED to. Imagine how much worse London would be if they didn't have the Underground and everyone just drove everywhere? It's an absolute nightmare as it is, and the traffic now is actually nowhere near as bad as it was back when they were building the first Underground line. That's WHY they went under ground in the first place to avoid all the traffic on the streets. That and the literal crap from all the horses. This is why we have raised pavements by the way lol.
Im planning to do it after my next video. I would like to do interviews with regular users of the service and real life testing to prove the points so it might take a bit of time, though will probably be out by early December.
It's all about political will, not that money doesn't exist just only London can control the purse strings and is unprepared to invest much anywhere north of Cambridge or west of Reading
I think the Picc-Vic will eventually be built to solve some of the issues, it'll just be a part of the Metrolink and not a whole separate system however
@@laurencec09 Literally 99.9% chance Picc-Vic won't be built ever. The Ordsall Chord allowed trains to run directly from Victoria to Piccadilly, and a tram line was built instead of the Picc-Vic line anyway. It takes 7 mins on a good day on the tram between the two main stations.
@@tramographyMCRThere was a rumour that the reason the Picc-Vic tunnel wasn’t proceded with was because there was a large Cold War communications centre buried in the way!
@@frankieconnolly6984time is not as significant as capacity. Having to run in mixed traffic with cars and pedestrians severely caps the frequency you can achieve and limits the length of trains which severely constrain capacity
And also are excellent for economic activity and quality of life for people who live in a place. Seeing as you live in London, would London be even a shadow of what it is today without the underground? Definitely not. And honestly, yes, it's something I'd be very willing to have funded through my own taxes. There is a dimension to things beyond their direct cost and revenue
That's what I think Manchester needs. Metrolink is in many ways a light rail/premetro more than a tram, with high floor vehicles and routes further out mainly utilising former rail lines(hence with dedicated rights of way). It's only considered a tram due to street running sections in the city zone and certain branches (namely the Ashton branch). With certain alterations (such as more dedicated right of ways in the suburbs and select tunneled sections, such as a revived Picc-Vic tunel), taking influence from hybrid premetro systems in antwerpen and many German cities, the metrolink could get even better, and be better futureproofed too.
Thanks for all the support on the video, it's been my best peforming one so far!
Im not from Manchester and don't have a super in-depth understanding of the system, but im hoping to bring more light to stuff like this.
Working hard to get some more videos out soon :)
Manchester Metrolink, why not build a subway? 1017am 9.1.25 how are they on lost property? tried to report a lost time yesterday and was sent from pillar to post trying to get it logged... probably to no avail.
It's ridiculous that a city the size of Manchester with a metro population approaching 3 million isn't already thinking of building a mass-rapid transit system. Trams are great, but there's only so many new lines and extensions you can build before you stretch the system beyond its limits. A comparable city such as Lyon in France which has 4 metro lines, 7 tram lines and 26 high frequency bus lines. Seeing how rapidly Manchester is growing, and how densely populated the centre is becoming with all those new highrises, it only makes sense start thinking ahead and provide a mass rapid transit system that can complement and provide relief for existing core metrolink services. We need to think about 50 years down the line, not just the next decade.
Idk where you got 5 million from. Grater Manchester has 2.8-2.9 million people
@@JB22. I think he means Merseyside as a whole
@@SirNob Merseyside is Greater Liverpool. I think you mean Greater Manchester.
@@JB22. I have no idea now, lol I thought it was 5 million for some reason, my bad!
metrolink is perfectly adequate, it brightened up certain superbs in manchester (wythenshawe, rochdale) and besides the subway would take ages and what would happen to the existing inferstructure?
In Germany, there are pre-metros like in Manchester which have sections on their own site, underground sections and sections shared with road traffic (like a standard tramway)
Nice work finding that "You can't have this until at least 1975" comment. There is a lot of that going on around the UK. Crossrail was proposed about 100 years before it was built. Thamslink 2000 didn't get done until about 2020. A dodgy company tried to get Crossrail replaced by an Oxford Street Monorail, at one point. There have been over twenty attempts to get the Bakerloo Line extended. So even in London (where allegedly the population is "high enough") people jump in the way of these sorts of projects and attempt to block other people from having good things.
Things do change in cities. Sometimes something is needed, but changes mean it is no longer needed. However, that is really rare.What seem to happen with transport projects in cities is that people who dislike public transport first try to block them from happening. Then, when people ask again, the people who dislike public transport always argue that the thing isn't necessary and that studies need to be made. Studies burn up the money of local councils. (Doing lots of studies, instead of a few studies, increases the cost of doing things and the time needed to implement improvements.) Then, after something finally gets approved, anti-transport people argue against the design (after money has been spent on planning) and try to reduce the investment needed to build the project. (This often does not save money as the plans need to be redone if you change things.) Then the thing gets built and is much more successful than predicted. Then it needs to be upgraded to cope with more passengers. And that ends up costing more than doing things the right way in the first place.
This was a good video. I hope you get noticed by people who make public transport infrastructure and get invited to meet some people who build things like this one day.
We need trams to return to a lot more UK cities. But we also need to be honest and call them "trams". Trams have a lower capacity than "metros", but a better capacity than buses. Transport planners should always be looking at the demand first, then taking future proofing into account, and then choosing what type of vehicles to use. People like you (who like public transport and who want to explain it to people who like watching videos) need to figure out what sort of things (like sports stadiums, exhibition centres or concert venues) are in a transport corridor, so you can make a good guess on when buses, trams, metro systems or heavy rail would be the best long term solution.
Keep an eye on the South West Metro. They are going to be operating tram-trains, that work normally on railway lines, but which can go through streets on tram lines too. That's an interesting choice by the Welsh government. You might want to take a visit when it is up and running.
Thanks for advice, I saw a video from TFW about the South Wales Metro progress a few weeks ago.
I will try to cover it, but can't find a precice date for opening yet.
It's definitely a shame that cities that are outside of the south-east get barly any attention with public transport.
Most of those projects you mentioned were for London. The perennial problem….if the UK govt has enough money for some major transit expenditure they weigh up “which project will be used by the most people” and so London ALWAYS gets the money.
Doesn’t help that there is no real devolved power in England (are no States or Provinces such as in US, Canada, Australia…who have the financial power to build and fund their own systems in their regions), all major UK investment decisions are made by the central government…which is based in London, who rely on Londoner votes…
Think of the last major government spending over last few decades across England….jubilee line, CrossRail, Elizabeth Line, HS2….all London!
The level of efficient (Ie not buses) public transit in UK cities outside of London is embarrassingly bad for a supposed wealthy country. Birmingham, the 2nd largest city, has 2 tram lines of approx 20km total…which is awful (😀😀😀…LA, arguably the most car centric city in the world has a tram / subway network of 175 km…8 times that of Birmingham. I am ex UK but live in Perth Australia…we have a smaller population than the West Midlands (2m v 3m) but have 180km of commuter rail…
The UK’s 2nd city relies on “last mile” (the last few stops of trains heading into New Street from the regions) of regional rail services - and on buses. Laughably outdated, slow, dirty….
It gets worse…city of Liverpool has no trams at all, no metro, relies entirely on a piecemeal “last mile” rail and buses.
I sense most of the UK population don’t appreciate how bad it is - they don’t know any different. And londoners don’t care how bad it is in other cities…so long as they get the next wedge of money (again)
Lots of tunnels under Manchester, in 1971 I was an apprentice telephone engineer, GPO, now British telecom, I remember once going down a man hole in city centre, (with the engineer I was shadowing) not far from river Irwell, at the bottom of the manhole were some heavy timbers with iron rings set in them, lifted two timbers the went down iron spiral stairs , came down a few feet onto a proper cobbled street, it was bricked up at the sides and a long brick arch above, don’t remember really exploring this, I was told that many years ago this would have run down to the edge of the river Irwell and as the city developed and the river embankments were built up to today’s level, some of these old , narrow streets were brick over rather than filled in. You can see old “barred openings “ halfway up the embankments nowadays
We really need to get over this thing of UK rail projects being scuppered because the population is smaller than London. We build fat motorways all over the UK, and a motorway bridge over a big river is expensive wherever it is built. But whenever investment needs to be made in trains, some MPs who don't live in that area, start arguing that the investment will not be paid back in increased passenger revenue.
Public transport is not just about how many people live somewhere or work somewhere. It is also about how many people from outside the area descend on an area because something like a football match is happening. Things like football matches happen all over the UK. And that leads to large numbers of visitors trying to travel from one place in the UK to another place in the UK and they all need to arrive at the venue before the event they are attending starts. So sporting events and concerts cause massive surges in demand on public transport. And the public transport system needs to be able to cope with surges proportional to the capacity of entertainment venues.
Now Metrolink (which is not a "metro" - it's a tram system cosplaying as a metro) can not easily increase the frequency of trams through the city centre because pedestrians do actually need to be able to cross roads that trans run through. So the success of the system means there is a conflict that is creating a maximum capacity for the city.
If a tunnel was put through the central section and the trams ran on streets in the outer sections that had less pedestrians, it would make tram travel through Central Manchester a lot faster and safer and give the streets back to pedestrians and bikes. Space would also be filled up for something like a street market to be run (if that was desirable).
I've lived in Manchester my whole life and I love the metrolink, it's so useful for getting around! The lack of automatically opening doors has always seemed odd to me though, glad I'm not the only one haha
Love the video, great work
I cannot agree, seen too many anti-social incidents and downright thuggish behaviour on the Metrolink, especially on the Airport and Bury routes.
It'd be interesting if they built a tram tunnel like what many tram systems in mainland Europe (especially German but also some Austrian & Swiss "Stadtbahnen") have, but I doubt they'll get the money to do that
The Metrolink is by far the greatest thing to happen to Manchester in the last 100 years, apart from the success of the 2 Manchester football teams.
Its brilliant and getting further expansion to Stockport, Middleton, Bolton and Wigan will enhance it even more.
A nicely shot, well educated video! I do think what Manchester needs are two circular lines that meet on Wilmslow Rd and through to in town. Willow Rd id the world's busiest bus corridor. Well it's ridiculously busy anyway. One circle to serve west and north. The other east and south. It'd give new quicker routes to areas not served like Rusholme and Moss Side. It would link up the bus stations, metro lines and trains. You wouldn't need to going town and then out which would be good for local growth. You could be in places like Dunham Massey, Tatton Park in 20 minutes from the city centre which would increase tourism and health benefits. 78,000 going in and out of Old Trafford, plus the Cricket, concerts, and I suppose City is a huge clog of people trying to get into town just to leave it again. There's a huge mix of diverse areas in 'Greater Manchester' that you can only access via a car. If it's not London it doesn't generally get built. It'd never happen. Ideally Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds and Newcastle should have something similar.
Slightly over my head but that sounds like a good idea. Would like to come back to Manchester sometime if a metro does get built.
The Arndale Shopping Centre was future proofed for the Pic Vic. A station box was excavated beneath the centre during construction and remains accessible.
Thanks for the really interesting video. I wrote about light rail/trams for my dissertation many years ago. I had suggested that trams were better than a subway, due to there being no need for tunnels and underground stations, and the perceived safety of tram stops because they were in the open. Nowadays, I support the idea of turning the Metrolink into a subway/metro. I accept that safety at tram stops will have changed due to changes in the levels of crime, so subway stations with CCTV and security guards patrolling the stations should improve passenger safety. Furthermore, they should help to improve capacity. One final thought: I saw in a book (published over 40 years) that included a plan to build two railway lines, one linking Victoria Station to Central Station and a line linking Piccadilly to the north-west of the city. Albert Square would have been the site of the interchange. What a pity these schemes never went ahead (Ditto with the Picc-Vic).
cars always have to give way to the trams and they come every 6 mins outside the city centre which is perfectly fine, also if it was a subway i wouldnt be able to bump it
Nice video. It occurs to me that Manchester would be an ideal place for an S-Bahn. The classic S-bahn system is built out of existing lines that spread out in different directions from the city, and Greater Manchester has plenty of those, that all funnel together into a "Stammstrecke" - that is a tunnel under the city centre with a very high frequency of trains. As expensive as this is, it's mostly about making use out of existing infrastructure - i.e. all the routes that can't be used as much as they could because it's too congested in the city centre, rather than building a whole new metro system as larger cities would do.
Here in Stuttgart, which I guess is about half the size of Manchester, the S-Bahn has 6 lines each running every 15 minutes with 140 or 200m long trains - that's a train every 2.5 minutes in the city centre underground stations. And this is in addition to the Stadtbahn - the Stadtbahn being roughly the same as the Metrolink (yellow too) as a mixture of tram and light railway (although the Stadtbahn too mostly disappears underground in the city centre). German cities invested in these systems in the 70s and 80s and reap the rewards today and for decades to come - it's hard to imagine anything different. You can imagine how something similar would be a quantum leap for Manchester.
I would like to make lots of videos about transport systems in continental Europe, they look really intresting!
I mean Manchester has lots of local trains into it anyways, them through running would be great
That's essentially what the Elizabeth Line in London is. It uses a bunch of existing lines outside the city core and has new tunnels in the centre and links everything together. Manchester really does need this. The population is growing quite rapidly and what we have right now is not going to be able to cope. It can just about cope with it right now but falls over quite often when there's extra strain on for say large events.
@@leek6927 The problem with all the trains we already have is that they all share the same incredibly overcrowded track space. There's been hardly any expansion of rail outside of London for over a century. The station approaches at both Victoria and Piccadilly have essentially the same capacity they did in 1890 (modern signalling helps there of course but that only goes so far). We have the fast trains to that go down to London and up to Glasgow that take up huge headways which reduces the number of slower and more frequent services we can run. HS2 is designed to release much of that capacity... assuming it ever gets reinstated then actually built. A high capacity, regular, fully segregated metro system would do wonders for all traffic in the whole region. It doesn't all have to be in tunnels, just under the urban cores like the London Underground is. Most of the Underground is actually over ground, and most of the Overground is actually under ground lol.
The ideal solution would be a metro that does all the heavy lifting, with trams linking all those areas in between then the busses picking up extra capacity or serving the areas it makes no real sense to run a dedicated set of tracks and all that come with it. It'll take years and be expensive, but it isn't beyond our capability. The problem is nobody wants to pay for it and the place with all the money wants to spend it on itself. London. We need to put massive investment into all of our city regions with better infrastructure which will bring with it more outside investment because it'll make it quicker and easier for people to get to and from work, and to move goods around etc. It'll also improve the diversity of the economy rather than relying almost entirely on the finance sector which only exists in The City and Canary Wharf. Two infinitely tiny spits of land relative to the size of the country they're in. When the finance sector goes down the tubes so does the UK economy.
That’s what they’re basically doing in Dublin. Currently there is one S Bahn like service hugging the coast for 53km and transiting through the city centre overground / elevated rail called the DART. Then there is two tram / LRT (one of the lines has a lot of grade separation due to being an old rail line with pre metro capacities) of 40km.
The plan is to upgrade two commuter lines to S Bahn level. Electrification, level crossing closures, new stations, use of old freight tunnels to connect the main two train stations…all in all there will be 200km of S Bahn services over 4 lines (the current line will be split in two).
Add to that the construction of a Metro line from the north of the city through the airport and the city centre. This will link in with the LRT and S Bahn lines at various spots including a brand new rail hub in the north of the city centre.
Adding in further LRT expansion & in 10 years the rail system will have 2.5x capacity and cover a significant amount more of ground than it does currently.
The advantage of LRT is the ability to segment lines to create new journeys, that is challenging when it is the backbone of your commuter system like in a Manchester or Dublin currently.
A little tip with the doors. You can press it before it stops then it'll open when it does. Not quite automatic, but it speeds things up a little.
That's really cool, I'm not sure I knew that!
@@GlobeSync1 It's an accessibility feature for disabled passengers, so not widely advertised.
Apparently you can also hold down the button (on some modern vehicles) to stop one set of doors from auto-closing after a few seconds. I believe that is something to help wheelchair users avoid having the doors slam on them, while they are maneuvering out of the door.
Manchester should Built a light rail Tunnel in the City Centre Here in germany Many Cities have them Duisburg Düsseldorf essen mühlheim Frankfurt Köln Dortmund And Many more
I think I once heard that the Manchester Underground was at least partially built, and there's bits of infrastructure which apparently are part of it. Not sure how true that is, or if I just dreamed it. All I do know is that the current options are the hugely congested tram links through Piccadilly Gardens or the horribly underused (and hugely expensive) Ordsall Chord for the overground trains.
For what it's worth, the Metrolink is fine. Yes, there are bits that are not so great, like where the trams steal a track from the Manchester to Chester line at Navigation Road, causing bottlenecks for both (not a problem with the trains, but the 12 minute tram service is a pain) and almost all of the run on the Ashton line which gets snarled up with the general traffic on Ashton New Road. And they really do need to get a move on with the tram-train option, which Sheffield has been running out to Rotherham for a while now. Getting the Glossop line moved to trams would be a big win at least, although the mess with the tracks over the Dinting Viaduct would need sorting out. I still don't know why it goes down to a single track going into the wonderfully triangular Dinting station, and they'll probably need to re-lay the second tracks from Dinting to Glossop and Hadfield - again, not a massive problem for hourly trains, but a regular tram service would see this lock up pretty badly. Oh, and the barely used line from Stalybridge to Stockport would be a massive win, bringing both into the network along with Denton and Reddish (although it would need something running to Stalybridge, so best get a move on with the extension of the Ashton line!) Oh, and a circular route that links the outlying suburbs, so you don't have to go into town if you're going between them
0:45 Subways, even autmated ones, will have higher running costs then trams.
This video is really well put together, and you kept the info concise as well, didn't feel like you were reading off of a script for majority of the video, nice work.
Yes, the Metrolink has many problems right now. One thing is that the north doesn't get as much funding for transport compared to London.
A subway would be nice, but it would be much more efficient and easier to improve the current network instead of beginning another separate project.
The Metrolink also can't really be extended anymore and operate well without extra vehicles. There are overcrowding issues often on the Bury and Altrincham Lines.
Every line and route meets in he city centre at some point as well (which I think you mentioned briefly in the video). Pretty much every tram gets delayed after passing through the city centre.
A metro tunnel has been proposed for the future between Old Trafford (ish) and Piccadilly station which might help with congestion issues at central parts of the network.
There are loads of things I want to mention, but I'll just press enter before I lose control of my hands
Your camerawork and editing is also quite good for 100 subscribers. You definitely deserve all the attention this video gets. Commitment to travel from Bristol to up here :)
Thanks! Especially after riding on the Elizabeth Line a few times, I think the North is really poorly served by transport.
Probably the biggest weakness of Metrolink (in my opinion) is that there is not enough space above the ground to expand in such a large city.
There's actually a lot of opportunities for extensions, more than you might have expected, but I won't list them all (unless you ask!)
The network just cannot expand because it's having a hard time as it is now
Great video format
It's a while since I was last in Manchester, but assuming nothing has changed, there is one very simple thing I think they got wrong (on this and other tram systems in Britain). It's the horn. It sounds like a normal vehicle horn (albeit loud - a lorry maybe). And that is going to be ignored by a lot of people in cars, as they will just think of it as coming from another road vehicle. If they'd used the traditional tram bell, everyone would instantly know a tram was coming, and get out of the way. I was a bit shocked when I first heard a tram horn, having lived in a city with trams which have bells in the past. And you very soon get used to clearing out of the way when you hear that distinctive bell.
the current trams having a synthetic "toot toot", like a steam train
Honestly for how much a metro system costs it’s not worth it. It takes 30 about minutes to get from Ashton under lyne to the city centre.
That money would be far better spent on a circular line connecting the outer towns on the system and increased capacity at peak hours imo
A circular line connecting the towns is something planned for the future, but likely would not have been able to happen without the network we have now.
Connecting surrounding areas to the city centre of Manchester brings in more money for the Metrolink than a circular line connecting Ashton, Oldham, and Stockport would for example.
The Ashton Line is one of the slower Metrolink lines as well! The Bury Line is longer in track, and it takes 24 mins. The Altrincham takes 22, the East Didsbury takes 21, the Trafford Centre takes 21, the Eccles takes 20, and from Oldham it takes 20. I left out the Airport Line because its construction purpose was slightly different (it's quite slow though), and Rochdale because it has a 15 min train connection.
Ashton also has a 15 min train connection. Droylsden and Audenshaw and Clayton do not, which is why the tram line was built.
Still a lot quicker than a bus.
The long term plan is to connect the "spokes" up with a "wheel", or something similar. An actual loop line isn't very good for reliability though so I imagine they'd have sections that link up but not have a single service do an actual circle, if that makes sense. They'd need to build quite a lot of new track for that, most of what exists now is old alignments that still existed. They replaced the track and electrified it of course but they didn't need to build many new permanent ways. There are still quite a few alignments they could use to link bits up but a lot of if will need to be brand new and thus expensive.
A metro would massively increase capacity, how do you plan to significantly increase the capacity of the metrolink without converting it into a metro or premetro?
Great video mate keep them coming!
I saw my picture which made me smile :)) I took the pic of the TfW trains at Cardiff Ctrl used on Wikipedia today :))
I think Manchester should have at least one subway line
The metro is the jewel in the crown of Manchester's public transport system. Before its introduction, the options were pretty dire. Any further expansion would be a boon for the region. I hope you enjoyed your visit. How does it compare to Bristol's offerings?
Metrolink is nice but it's starting to struggle as the city grows. A proper subway would have been an expensive investment back in the 70's but would have benefitted the city in the long run. Manchester will likely have to build one anyway in the next 20 years or so, especially if Greater Manchester plans on adding a million or so people in that period. On the plus side driverless train technology has come a long way, so some aspects will be easier now.
Fully agree, hoping a subway gets built soon.
@@GlobeSync1would they be able the existing trams underground? Or is there something stopping that, as what I would do is make a tunnel for just the core section and then go above ground after that and run on the existing routes which I think are on dedicated rights of way anyway. Then it would be like the Tyne and Wear metro which I would consider good, to me that seems to make far more sense than making a disconnected system which wouldn’t be helpful anyway if you want to go anywhere but the CBD
I think one of the reasons they didn’t do an underground metro is because the soil conditions would make it really expensive, I’m not sure if that would still be the case although it would be really expensive anyway because if the useless government
Maybe? I'm probably not the best person to ask that question but I think it could be a possibility.
A bit like the Elizabeth Line which has to run as a subway in the core underground, then as a long distance train out to Shenfield, Reading and other parts.
But maybe the current tram stock wouldn't be capable of operating underground services.
@ yeah the stock is the question as I’m not sure if maybe it is to long or something
You got to get further out of the city on the previous railway lines for the trams to get to top speed.
There are no traffic flows large enough in the Manchester metropolitan area that could support the enormous cost of a tunnelled metro system. What could work is short underpasses at key places to speed up tram services rather than flat junctions everywhere.
Exactly right. That's what the Ashton Line did in places, and others in comments are suggesting an entirely underground system, but that is just not efficient and cost will outweigh benefit if the Metrolink were to be replaced.
There are, and will be. The population of Manchester itself is set to double in the next decade. The tram system we currently have is at capacity on any given day, and you see just how badly it handles even smaller events like a football match. We need a subway system or heavy commuter rail lines on their own tracks. Trams aren't a mass transit solution, they're used in place of busses where they need the extra capacity but they can't be a replacement for a proper metro. We need a Crossrail for the north, basically, something to link up the big population hubs in the region of Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford and Leeds with connections to Sheffield.
The approach at Piccadilly is still the same as it was over 100 years ago, it's a huge bottleneck for ALL train traffic through the area. HS2 was going to help out with that but who knows when or if we'll ever see that come to fruition after Sunak cancelled the northern leg.
Hopefully with the devolved transportation plans for the regions Labour are suggesting we might see something actually happen where multiple city regions can combine their resources and do something that integrates across county lines. Before then you need to rely on central government and we all know what the treasury is like about spending money outside of the M25 lol.
@@TalesOfWar Imho the Metrolink just needs to be improved. Capacity is a huge problem as you mentioned.
@@tramographyMCR There isn't much that can be done capacity wise really. It's limited by what it is. The only way you can really improve it is by making it entirely separate from all other traffic (including pedestrians) so nothing can get in the way of its operation, and to be able to more quickly stop and start for more regular service. The current rolling stock just isn't designed for that. Basically we want something like the Victoria Line in London. Every 90 seconds on the busiest parts of the network. That frequency is how you get capacity and you can only achieve that on dedicated track.
If we do end up building a proper metro it has the potential to be a total game changer for the region if properly integrated with other transit modes. Obviously the main train stations would be linked up, but also the bigger bus stations or ones in important locations like Middleton. Imagine the investment these places would get from the outside now its so much easier to get around the place from further afield?
@@tramographyMCR The problem is the city centre is a choke point for the whole system. It can take just as long for a tram to cross it than it takes to get there from the terminus. It's slow and congested because trams have to work around cars, pedestrians and cyclists. If the tracks between Piccadilly, Deansgate and Victoria were underground "pre-metro" style, that would help a lot, and further sections could be tunneled as the budget allows, until you have a situation similar to Stuttgart, Karlsruhe or Hannover. That's one option, another would be to build a new automated metro line between the highest density areas of the city, and perhaps hook it up to some of the grade separated Metrolink lines and convert them to light metro.
If the government hadn’t scrapped the Picc-Vic underground plan in the mid 1970s we could have had a rail subway network like Merseyside and Newcastle. Metrolink is ok but there are too many incidents of unruly behaviour and thuggish behaviour on the trams. I still prefer the bus to Bury and the Airport as I don’t feel safe on the trams, especially after dark.
Excellent video! Thank you
Fantastic video well done!
nice video mate. keep up with the good work
You could never have automated trams on, for instance, the branch that goes to Media City and Eccles. Automation is not possible, even if the city centre section were underground.
The Thameslink 2000 solved that problem. The central core uses automatic operation to get vehicles through as fast as possible and as close together as possible. Outside of the core, that is switched off and the drivers take back control. The same sort of thing could be done with trams. The automation does not replace the tram driver. It just boosts the number of trams you can get through the central tunneled section, per hour.
High Floor Pre-Metro style LRT which my home city of Edmonton as well as Manchester has is almost good enough to rival the best driverless metro systems around the world however the downtown metro project proposed way back then should still go ahead. These type of central downtown artery tunnels are expensive however they are very long term investments that pay dividends for future generations not having to pay for them later on... Just ask Calgary what the cost of deferring tunnels downtown leads to... ;-)
Another thing is that a subway system would not only cost billions but also means lots of traffic issues with roads being constantly dug up. It would be a nightmare.
That's the "cut and cover" method which the Tube used when it opened in 1863 but tunnel boring machines would be used if they wanted to build a subway now.
@GlobeSync1 there was no cars on the roads in 1863, just horses and carriages.
@@stevenblood1284 Ofc, Im just saying that the cut and cover method would not be used anymore, it is a very inefficient and inconvient way of digging a tunnel.
@@stevenblood1284 There was more traffic on the roads in London in 1863 than there is now. Thats why they built train lines under ground. There's absolutely no way we'd use the cut and cover method today when building a metro line under a major city. They'd use a TBM as we've used since the first deep level tube line in 1890. The whole point of which was to avoid having to dig anything up and cause traffic problems.
Trust me mate the Oldham and Rochdale line reaches 50mph if not more
Max speed is 50mph for all trams
as someone who lives in Manchester I agree with you. from what I heard the trams were getting extended to Bolton but that got cancelled for reasons I do not know. the public transport in Manchester are very poor especially northern on the Walkden line and the bee network. buses that are in the bee network sector are really poor buses don't come on time we have to wait every 20 mins for a bus or even up to half hour or even up to an hour if delayed I have a friend who works for the bee network hand he said to me I think the bee network in general is diabolical. great video though.
I think Bolton was put on the back burner because there's already regular train services there. Kind of why (well, one of the reasons) the London Underground doesn't serve much south of the Thames. There are already a bunch of commuter rail services down there that do the trick. That and it's mostly waterlogged gravel rather than the easy to cut through clay on the north. But that's not really relevant to this lol.
Now, if only Bristol could have at least a tram!!!
If Bristol had a tram, I would be making a video about it immediately!
@ I wrote my University Dissertation on it in 1995!!!
Solid videos, consider spending a bit of time learning how to make a proper nice thumbnail and I reckon you'll do great with these 👍 something like RMtransit's thumbnails, with your own style that will be nice and recognisable
Thanks for the advice! I used to do that a bit (though not very well), but found that simple clean thumbnails like the one on this video work really well.
Though for my next video I will try UA-cam's A/B thumbnail tester to see what style works better.
Great video mate. Have a sub.
Why not build elevated rail?
Manchester should have an underground. However the government does NOT authorise the funding. England is London centric. 100 times per head of population is spent on London than Manchester. Cross rail, HS2, Eurostar and additional underground stations. . . etc. Stockport is not connected by the metro link.
I agree, also England being London centric when it comes to transport (and lots of other things) could not be more true.
I use the Elizibeth line and Eurostar a lot, and cities that are not in the south-east deserve that stuff.
It wont be good idea for a subway since it goes to popular areas where it stops if you add those stops there it will cause traffic on cars when its building.
And then when it's built, fewer people will need to use their cars because it'll be more convenient to just get on the metro. We need to change our mindset of driving everywhere, and we need to build cities where you don't NEED to. Imagine how much worse London would be if they didn't have the Underground and everyone just drove everywhere? It's an absolute nightmare as it is, and the traffic now is actually nowhere near as bad as it was back when they were building the first Underground line. That's WHY they went under ground in the first place to avoid all the traffic on the streets. That and the literal crap from all the horses. This is why we have raised pavements by the way lol.
@@TalesOfWar there isn't a lot of traffic in manchester only if the traffic lights had more time to drive through
@@bloxburgbuild2 You are kidding, right?
maybe in the city centre it is but in local areas like tamside are less crowded
I like to see a video on the TFW
Im planning to do it after my next video. I would like to do interviews with regular users of the service and real life testing to prove the points so it might take a bit of time, though will probably be out by early December.
Manchester is to far North of London to get any of the good stuff.
A subway? It’s all about money unfortunately
It's all about political will, not that money doesn't exist just only London can control the purse strings and is unprepared to invest much anywhere north of Cambridge or west of Reading
Interior could be improved
I think the Picc-Vic will eventually be built to solve some of the issues, it'll just be a part of the Metrolink and not a whole separate system however
the tram was initally built instead of the picc vic thing. takes about 3 minutes so building a tube is actually useless
@@laurencec09 Literally 99.9% chance Picc-Vic won't be built ever. The Ordsall Chord allowed trains to run directly from Victoria to Piccadilly, and a tram line was built instead of the Picc-Vic line anyway. It takes 7 mins on a good day on the tram between the two main stations.
@@tramographyMCRThere was a rumour that the reason the Picc-Vic tunnel wasn’t proceded with was because there was a large Cold War communications centre buried in the way!
@@frankieconnolly6984time is not as significant as capacity. Having to run in mixed traffic with cars and pedestrians severely caps the frequency you can achieve and limits the length of trains which severely constrain capacity
Victoria and Piccadilly stations are not far apart, when in Manchester it’s a 1( minute walk. There is also a free bus service from these stations.
A one minute walk, really ?? Who are you, the Six Million Dollar Man ? LOL 😂😂😂
One minute!
Give over.
Subways cost money. This factor will become more important to you once you are old enough to pay taxes.
They are not cheap but I think would be worth it for a city the size of Manchester.
Subways pay their way in the long run and improve economic activity where they serve. Maybe one day you'll be wise enough to understand.
And also are excellent for economic activity and quality of life for people who live in a place. Seeing as you live in London, would London be even a shadow of what it is today without the underground? Definitely not. And honestly, yes, it's something I'd be very willing to have funded through my own taxes. There is a dimension to things beyond their direct cost and revenue
@@grassytramtracks Absolutely good points. However I do not "live in London".
Look at Antwerp- a small city but with a world class underground tram system.
That's what I think Manchester needs. Metrolink is in many ways a light rail/premetro more than a tram, with high floor vehicles and routes further out mainly utilising former rail lines(hence with dedicated rights of way). It's only considered a tram due to street running sections in the city zone and certain branches (namely the Ashton branch). With certain alterations (such as more dedicated right of ways in the suburbs and select tunneled sections, such as a revived Picc-Vic tunel), taking influence from hybrid premetro systems in antwerpen and many German cities, the metrolink could get even better, and be better futureproofed too.