I have noticed in Ds3 I'm running into more players in invasions that are using meta duel builds but they are obviously new to PvP and don't know the basics yet much less what makes the build they're using good. That's what happens when you ask reddit for a meta build before you understand how hyper armor works or how to outspace the weapons duelists will adamantly say suck (anything bigger then a ss). They just want the internet to give them a build when they should really ask "so why are curved swords so good in PvP?" "Whats hyper armor and does armor matter?" You end up with a pontiff knight curved sword user who just keeps walking into your swings trying to trade with your big boy weapon.
An On kinda funny how i rarely read pyros are op or meta.. dont forget the no stat investment great combustion which has insane range and can do up to 500dmg
By far the most fun I had in DS3 was when I stopped playing at the meta. Invasions at about 70 and below were amazing - long fights, variety in skill and builds, wizards that can completely toast you with one spell but will die with a firebomb, tanks that can take 10 swings but hit so weak that you take 10 too, swarms of blues, overconfident password summons, panic and mayhem. You never know what you're going to find. I had a pyro build at 90 for DLC invasions that was fun too, but man 35, 50, 70 was where it was at.
My meta in DS3 is SL 60 Smoldering lake invasions where I don't even aim to kill the host half the time, just waste as much of their time as possible by spamming the "Very gud" carving and If I poison/toxic them with cloud spells, the better. And I still find it jaw dropping and hilarious when I do a duel or invade and actually fight instead of troll, you can tell just by my characters name that this isn't going to be serious, and they try-hard the s*** out of it then point down when they hornet ring backstab punish the gargoyle flame hammer. Which BTW is considered the worst of the greathammers and is the only actual weapon that character uses. Story time: To this day I still regret not recording it(well I did try but something happened and it didn't record T_T), I invaded a dry-fingered host so it was him, 3 summons and a blue. As I spawn in i hear previous invader die and blue was already loading in. Again, this character is trash but most all his stats are in health so he can survive a few hits. Somehow kill a summon. The second I do they literally ALL run back to the bonfire. Me: REALLY?!?!?! It's still a 1v3. *Blue finally loads in* 1v4. So I try and poke them but not much luck. Summon comes back. 1v5. Despite being a 1v5 the only one willing to go outside the empty room is the blue, who only chases me halfway down the hall. So I put on FP and HP regen and chill for a while, blue sticks his head in incase I went afk for a free kill but I didn't. Full FP and most HP back. I YOLO the host. get body blocked by 1 phantom while being chased by blue and other. MASSIVE TRADE, praise Hyper armor. It didn't go well for me. I cast cloud spell which spooks them and panic roll away down other hall towards rats then basilisks. Their thirst for kill intensifies and they chase me like its their job, which it is. No time to heal, just keep panic rolling like the memelord this character is. Host dies to.... something, rats? Fell in lava pit? IDK, blue was on my nuts with summons not far behind. Just won a 5v1. Didn't record it and that will never happen again. FeelsBadMan.
I've never been a fan of the "META level" in any of these games since it just always becomes whatever level the most efficient builds can top of their damage and health stats. I like to stay in the SL 50-100 range for these games since you have to make sacrifices. These sacrifices really improve build variety imo since you can try wacky builds without them being doomed to fail.
The Street Fighter community is EXACTLY the same. SF3 lovers bashing ppl who like 4 and those players bashing ppl who like 5 etc. There's always going to be arguing when each new release is drastically different.
Jinxed Swashbuckler Yeah Tekken fans are pretty chill and I'd say that's because it's a legacy game with not a whole lot of changes from each release. If you played Bryan 10 years ago, you could pick him up today and feel pretty much at home. Plus Tekken 7 is amazing so that doesn't hurt lol
i never understood the division between all the souls games in the community... all of them are good and fun. sure its subjective, one likes ds1 better and the other likes ds2 better, and we should never forget that ds3 brought a lot of new gamers to those titles so even ds3 is important even though the pvp is kinda meh. but at the end, diversity is a gift not a weight.
on a side note, FS should have put some money in advertising the multiplayer too in dark souls.. i mean there is ppl who really think that invasions are more of a glitch then an actual game mechanic but on the other hand they summon 3 phantoms...lots of peeps could enjoy the unique pvp but there is still some misunderstanding going on... FS slept on it IMO
JunoJupiter GLRR It's totally normal. Each game has very different PvP and if you're passionate about one over the others, you're going to defend it. Every argument starts with someone saying "DS X is trash."
JunoJupiter GLRR So true. I can't believe we're 10 years into this and invasions are the most misunderstood aspect of the game from mainstream game news and Reddit subs. That's why there's a LOT of Souls fans dissapointed about Sekiro. Not so much at From, but also because no other developer has shown any interest in implementing it.
One of my favorite things to do in these games involves breaking them and building obscenely overpowered twinks. I have a Brandon build at SL30 in DSR. Great Magic weapon gives you 198 AR with the Oolacile cat. Pair that with a raw Shotel and you have 410 AR that goes through shields. I loved twinking my SL60 Bloodborne Chikage out with 31.5 Bloodtinge gems and oneshotting hosts with an R1. I love oneshotting gankers at SL99 in the woods with WoG and Power Within. I loved beating Artorias at SL20 with no upgrades to get my Dark Bead. I loved beating him at 40 to get the Gold Tracer. Your Dark Ring twink in DS3 gave me a hardon, especially because that game was so hard to break. But I love DS1 the most because there's an endless variety of broken things you can do, which all vary depending on the SL, and nearly every stat in the game can enable its own broken tactic. Leo Ring and Halberd? Pretty strong. Leo Ring, Halberd, and Dragon Roar? Now you're thinking with oneshots. That kind of brokenness is a lot more interesting to me, in general, than "slap a straight sword on it" 3.
Ive been playing (dming) dnd for almost 2 years now and I see it poping up everywhere these days, and i love it when it comes up in your vids. Love your vids in general, so keep it up!
Totally serious comment and really not a troll - nearly every "top 100 album" list I read has London Calling near the top, and I think it is a VERY average album. I'm completely willing (and inclined) to think that I'm missing something. What am I missing?
I would listen 2 hours of you explaining your lore on darksouls and PvP. I should be making videos of builds that people hasn't perfected yet. I do have a list of builds i have in mind in ds3 so far.
Interesting video. Just various thoughts and facts: Bloodbornes gem system actually works multiplicatively so using two 14% gems doesn't give you 28% but more! In this specific case the difference is fairly neglegible but it becomes quite noticable when we consider the depth 5 gems. Although winter lantern gems are a very good compromise, relatively easy to get and still powerful. Like 10-15% weaker than dungeon gems. As for the BL "meta" increase, it's not exactly because of HP but rather because just about the only way of gaining defenses is straight leveling, no matter what. Your def is essentially tied to your level unlike souls where solely int influences magical def and such. At least that's what I believe, Im not that deep into BB. Definitions change over time and depending on the context. New words are invented and all that. It's nice to know the origins but today's application is often times different. Also I'd totally listen to you for an hour. You have a nice voice and solid content. But probably rather more as a podcast thing which YT isn't all that great for, not as a video with footage in the background.
Seeing my beloved bloodborne pvp makes me wonder how they are going to shit on it introducing ds3's matchmaking into the remaster in 2023, instead of doing the most sensible thing, saint riot's gospel: thou shalt be allowed to beat the game with a fully upgraded weapon, but when invading someone's world, thou shalt get your weapon downgraded to match the host's level instead of just being left out of the tier system entirely.
I remember the old Meta in DS3 was 120/125 and to some extent it still is. Whenever the community organized PVP covenants erupted, a second meta at 140 was created and I think that one was arguably stronger than the 125 because for a good while there was significantly more activity at 140 however it was exclusively limited to Gank City. when Ds3 had mode players though, you could find people running NG+ just about anywhere and that was fantastic.
PvP was and will always be broken Also, you say the meta changes at the drop of a hat, but in bloodborne, I dropped my tophat at bloodlevel 120 and I instantly got invaded!
Really enjoyed the insight, almost logged off after investing 4 and a half minutes on getting the answer to dks meta. But I definitely understand where you’re coming from.
Great video it is nice to have a voice of sanity on the meta, I have a phrase that always helps me enjoy dark souls 1-3 it is " dark souls is a game I play not a game I win". If you think about the lore of the game its literally telling you this. I am also greatly looking forward to part 2 of this.
I personally have always been one to advocate for "use what you want" If you have a weapon/tactic/etc you like, and aren't one of those people that only care about winning, who really cares what the meta is? Use whatever you feel like you enjoy using. Granted, invasions and duels don't always allow for you to use the same weapon all the time if you do want to win, and you may have to switch around some, but the idea is I feel people shouldn't feel roped in by the fact that some weapon is better than another. Sure, straight swords are great in DS3, but do you have to use one to win? No. Will you be more likely to win if you use one? Eh.. Debatable, but a lot of people will say "yes". I'm like you, Saint. I've enjoyed all the Soulsborne PvP for different reasons, and have always tried to push the idea in each game that yes, while some things are objectively better than others, who really cares? We won't always win, but you don't anyways even with meta and a lot of skill. Keep up the good work, as always.
What I like about using my own build, even though it is not flawless, it is that players who invades me actually send me messages to congratulate me for fighting my own way. I'm one of those using poison throwing knives to try to have an advantage, and that is noticed by long time players. The community isn't only meta players, there are players just here to have fun, creating their own original character. And they end up friending each other to have duels again :D
Hey Saint - thought-provoking commentary as usual. My only disagreement with you is that you seem to be arguing that because all the Souls games are broken in some way, it is pointless to have a debate about the relative merits and whether one is better. While I agree that all the games have ways in which they are broken, DS 1 is SO much more broken than DS 3. In fact, i see DS 3 as a culmination of all the lessons From learned from making the earlier games. Assuming From learns from their mistakes, they could see that things like passive poise, single-check backstabs, and poor matchmaking resulted in bad PvP. That's not to say that DS 3 is perfect - it isn't. It's also not to say DS 1 can't be fun - it can. I make mistakes today, and i made mistakes 10 years ago, but hopefully the mistakes of 10 years ago were bigger than the ones today, and just because I made mistakes at both ages doesn't mean that you can point to Today Amish and 10 Years Ago Amish and be nihilistic about the differences.
Can I just say Saint, I enjoy you sharing your opinion about topics that a lot of people get super toxic about. You are the cool headed guy who explains there is something wrong with every game and no singular one is perfect. I, like you I'd like to think, like every souls game for different reasons. Me personally, I can't say Wich one I liked the best because they all brought something to the table. Also, I love your commentary. Much love my dude
I loved this honestly. At some point I think people need to remember this is just a video game it is meant to be fun. Do whatever you enjoy no matter if it is "meta" or not. As long as you are having fun that's all that matters in my eyes! Great video saint!
Meta level isn't entirely arbitrarily decided in all cases. At least in DS3 meta invasion level depends entirely on where you want to invade, whereas 120, the overall meta level, is just the meta level for duelling. But for mid or low level invasions the meta SL/WL range for optimal activity is determined by what people would be when going through those areas.
seeing that you mentioned adaptability, i was wondering what your thoughts were about it? Also relieved to hear you haven't completely given up on ds2.
Thanks for explaining. Now I gotta figure out this dilemma. I like getting stronger and better, I love to WIN. However I also like playing on fair grounds. I value sportsmanship. (Even though I am shit at showing it.) Is it better to play and focus on character development. (How powerful can I build this character up) Or is it better to fix my stats at a certain value to play with friends? 🤔
Another way to describe what meta gaming is; if someone makes a dark bead mage build to gank with, they’re meta gaming. They aren’t playing a mage with dark bead because they enjoy the play style, but because they know it 1-2 shots players.
Excellent commentary again. I've had only a few meta lvl characters thought-out DS1-3 since the my 360 days. I got started doing low lvl builds on the 360 to help ID modders(like no Havel monster around lvl 30 will be fast rolling, using big weapons and casting spells). The low lvl builds thing just kinda stuck when I got on the Xbox One. Anyways like you I have no beef with meta guys and think setting up below one-shot club guys usual lvl range forcing him adjust is great. Wish there was a better way to setup for low lvl dark bead/pursuer guys. But whatever those guys will be out there like the raw Dragonslayer axe guys on DS3.
Saint: "...Try sub meta..." I can't recommend this enough. I built a "saint inspired" SL 35 character that allowed me to run around to different places and invade a lot of not-so-meta areas. I've sunk at least 20 hours of invasions in that character, and they are my honest-to-god first actual PvP build. It's been a damn roller coaster, but as time went on a beautiful thing happened: *I* made adjustments; *I* found what worked better, or what I needed. It wasn't the game or the meta-game but *my* reactions and *my* philosophy behind the playing the game. Saint talks about people making ridiculous meta builds too, as if they are forced to use these builds because "it's what you're supposed to do". Fuck all that. Reject the Giant Dad and Havel Mom builds. It's going to take away from the game with time, and it makes you lose that creative edge. I was invaded just yesterday by someone that. When I started out PvP, I would have assumed the invader knew more than me just by how they looked. Giant Dragon Greataxe (or whatever), more Poise than they needed, and that flamey Nito magic where sword-hands touch your butt and send you flying. This was at SL 40, or thereabouts. I started fighting them with this undeveloped character, and you know what? They eventually killed me. However, before that fight was over, I embarrassed the ever living crap out of them as I back stabbed them over and over and over. Why? Because I was better equipped mentally for a battle around that level; I understood the game better than them, and both of us knew it. Their only resort was to use their Nito Brand Touchy-Touchy to one shot me. Sure, they "won", but who really won? Is that guy going to keep playing the game if he either: one shots everyone, or gets absolutely shit on? No, because he's going to get too mad, or too bored. I won because I was joking about it the whole time-I was having fun. Hearts and minds, people. Hearts and minds.
really good video, but i do have to make a quick point. ive played all 3 souls games and bloodborne, and honestly i normally end up at 80-100 for all of them. while that definitely isnt quite meta level, it definitely isnt as impossible as you say to end up at those levels by the end of a normal NG cycle.
Wow...been playing d&d for 11 years now, and hearing someone talk about meta gaming in d&d to compare to dark souls pvp is quite interesting. (Can't wait till revan says some shit about saints vid), Have a nice day Saint.
DS3 was my first Souls game, and it glued me to evasion-based combat, hence why I’m not really into DSR and DS2 so much.(I’ve been dying to play Bloodborne “but it ain’t on the PC”) Gotta say that DS3 is definitely broke, just differently than the others, as Saint said, and that’s fine, I still play it because I think it’s fun. All the shit that came from the community got summed up and trivialized damn well in this video, so good job Saint. It sadly is sounding like the community doesn’t even like the games they play, they’re just being competitive and petty. All this meta stuff is indeed arbitrary so why is everyone so damn salty over it? It was picked FOR you, you are NOT obligated to follow it, no one really cares if you do or don’t. You don’t have to fight dark beads and gold tracers, or in the case of DS3, dark build + chaos dagger parry fishing/ r1 spamming meta lords. Remember Dark Souls is a game, and that it is supposed to be FUN, just have fun how you see fit, there will likely be invasions/ PvP action wherever you go, be it SL7 or SL600. I personally dig SL60-90 rockin Dex-Int to Dark builds(lore reasons), and have yet to get hatemail or anything of the like for using what I enjoy.
I feel like this video doesn't address the issues with the Bloodborne meta. Your build is ultimately only going to be as successful as the quality of the gems you farm, your stat placement, and your weapon of choice. Lowering level does not change the value of these gems, so you're still going to have 1-3hko matches in any location but a fight club. Most FC's are not very active either, so if you want some action, you will have to go to hotspots at some point. Removing gems from the equation will not improve the situation because of the way weapons were balanced. For example, the Beast Cutter has C/E physical scaling and a mediocre D arcane scaling parameter. It was designed to be used in conjunction with a heavy abyssal gem and blunt gems. An arcane version must use two cold abyssals and a 27.2% elemental gem to have reasonable damage. Even then, it's not remotely close to the physical variant's potential. The whole issue with gems is simply that cursed gems push AR far beyond what should have been acceptable while gems without a curse were designed to be used ubiquitously. FromSoftware rushed Bloodborne's release so that they could focus their efforts on pushing Dark Souls 3 out as quickly as possible, so no effort was made to bring maximum AR or gem values down to reasonable levels. The unfortunate side of this BL70 FC is that you remove gems that were meant to somewhat balance the game for strength and arcane (heavy abyssal and cold abyssal). Take away those gems and a lot of weapons like the beast cutter fall way behind while skill weapons such as rakuyo and blade of mercy, which have excellent single-stat scaling, take the forefront in pvp. BL70 gemless clubs create as many or more problems than they solve. So do BL150's. The point of a meta build is that you maximize your main stats at the lowest level possible. Properly designed physical builds would have 50vit and 50 in a single damage stat at BL100 with a little room for endurance or miscellaneous stats. That is why the community set a meta level at 100 very early on. It wasn't some random, arbitrary value where the game was most broken and abusable. To try and say so would be a lie because low-level builds are subject to being more vulnerable to things such as firearms while split damage weapons that normally take nourishing gems are chopped at the knee with regard to damage output. Players coming over from Dark Souls pushed that BL100 meta up to 120 "because hey, 50/50 quality is viable". It's bloated and ridiculous, but what do you do when more than half of the community pushes for the extra 20 stat points so they can 2-shot invaders and vit-gouge? Pushing the meta higher might result in more vitality, but it does not change the number of hits to KO because AR scales right along with it.
I think your estimate on Soul Level ranges is a bit low on beating all the bosses and finishing the game. Many, many players will try to *at least* hit Lv. 100 before they beat the game. I did, although that was mostly for my first play-throughs, (except Bloodbourne). Some will even go to 150 or even 180 to beat the DLCs for DS3. I think the meta level is pretty much whatever level feels like your character is "complete". Like, you can wield all the weapons you need without having to Min/Max and wear appropriate armor you need for your class without fat-rolling. Of course that's all pretty subjective, some people feel like they "need" to be able to cast Chaos Bed AND one-hand Ledo's great-hammer and still be able to wear a full Knight's set. I suppose I guess I'm just trying to say that most players have this threshold they need to hit where afterwards they don't see much of a point in leveling up anymore, which I'd say is like 120-140.
I was just wondering what is the soul level meta in Dark Souls Remastered... there are so many opinions! SL 120/125/130/150???? I planned all my builds at SL 130 because it seems in my opinion the most versatile... is it too high? (...Still I am hoping FROMSOFT puts embered health in the arena in Dark Souls 3, because it would be fucking awesome...)
Jinxed Swashbuckler But that's only because people decided that they liked that level. There's no reason to go to 120 or 130 other than having additional HPs or stamina. The true soul level soft caps are those put by the developers in the game.
Talking about Dark Souls 3 arena (NOT INVASIONS) : How could it be like if players fought in the arena exclusively with UNAPGRADED weapons? Dark infused, Chaos infused, Blessed, Crystal, Lightning whatever. Just their full meta level build (SL 140) and their favourite weapons, flames, talismans, chimes, staffs and buffs, but everything at plus 0. Maybe it could be fun? Fight would last longer I guess... Since FROM doesn’t want to give us embered health in the arena. (maybe doing this after ng+, because the need of course to upgrade weapons to beat the game). Would love to see this being tried.
*Most Efficient Tactic Available*
Finally Saint you called them out
Oh gosh the dungeon master voice happened.
I accidentally took off my Ring of Favor and Protection yesterday.
Now it is just like the meta:
B R O K E N
Heh...
Stop
cant stop wont stop
ThatRipOff except this one. Lautrec always has something funny to say
Dark Souls Pvp community in a nutshell: arguing over which title can be crowned "least bugged lagfest broken mechanic multiplayer experience"
Awesgaga Demon's souls obviously is
grass spam the game
I have noticed in Ds3 I'm running into more players in invasions that are using meta duel builds but they are obviously new to PvP and don't know the basics yet much less what makes the build they're using good. That's what happens when you ask reddit for a meta build before you understand how hyper armor works or how to outspace the weapons duelists will adamantly say suck (anything bigger then a ss).
They just want the internet to give them a build when they should really ask "so why are curved swords so good in PvP?" "Whats hyper armor and does armor matter?" You end up with a pontiff knight curved sword user who just keeps walking into your swings trying to trade with your big boy weapon.
Meta is whatever you used when you beat a salty player.
The Raff Kinda, I'd still say Chaos Blade > Iaito or Gold Tracer > Scimitar though, yknow?
An On ...
An On r/whoosh
An On kinda funny how i rarely read pyros are op or meta.. dont forget the no stat investment great combustion which has insane range and can do up to 500dmg
When did Crystal Mailbreaker become meta?
I'd listen if it was a 6 hour video
Well you're in luck, one year later and he releases a 6 hour Stream of Consciousness Invasions
“You are playing a role-playing game with broken pvp tacked on to it.”
Saint_riot - 2018
So true.
By far the most fun I had in DS3 was when I stopped playing at the meta. Invasions at about 70 and below were amazing - long fights, variety in skill and builds, wizards that can completely toast you with one spell but will die with a firebomb, tanks that can take 10 swings but hit so weak that you take 10 too, swarms of blues, overconfident password summons, panic and mayhem. You never know what you're going to find. I had a pyro build at 90 for DLC invasions that was fun too, but man 35, 50, 70 was where it was at.
"Nobody wants to hear me talk for 40 minutes." You don't know my ways boy.
But can we all agree that Dark Souls 2 has the most amount of funny and moment-appropriate gestures?
That golden phantom falling on 8:30 LMAO
My meta in DS3 is SL 60 Smoldering lake invasions where I don't even aim to kill the host half the time, just waste as much of their time as possible by spamming the "Very gud" carving and If I poison/toxic them with cloud spells, the better.
And I still find it jaw dropping and hilarious when I do a duel or invade and actually fight instead of troll, you can tell just by my characters name that this isn't going to be serious, and they try-hard the s*** out of it then point down when they hornet ring backstab punish the gargoyle flame hammer. Which BTW is considered the worst of the greathammers and is the only actual weapon that character uses.
Story time: To this day I still regret not recording it(well I did try but something happened and it didn't record T_T), I invaded a dry-fingered host so it was him, 3 summons and a blue. As I spawn in i hear previous invader die and blue was already loading in. Again, this character is trash but most all his stats are in health so he can survive a few hits. Somehow kill a summon. The second I do they literally ALL run back to the bonfire. Me: REALLY?!?!?! It's still a 1v3. *Blue finally loads in* 1v4. So I try and poke them but not much luck. Summon comes back. 1v5. Despite being a 1v5 the only one willing to go outside the empty room is the blue, who only chases me halfway down the hall. So I put on FP and HP regen and chill for a while, blue sticks his head in incase I went afk for a free kill but I didn't. Full FP and most HP back. I YOLO the host. get body blocked by 1 phantom while being chased by blue and other. MASSIVE TRADE, praise Hyper armor. It didn't go well for me. I cast cloud spell which spooks them and panic roll away down other hall towards rats then basilisks. Their thirst for kill intensifies and they chase me like its their job, which it is. No time to heal, just keep panic rolling like the memelord this character is. Host dies to.... something, rats? Fell in lava pit? IDK, blue was on my nuts with summons not far behind. Just won a 5v1. Didn't record it and that will never happen again. FeelsBadMan.
Shortcut at 9:14 - MIND BLOWN. How did I not realize you could do that?
I've never been a fan of the "META level" in any of these games since it just always becomes whatever level the most efficient builds can top of their damage and health stats. I like to stay in the SL 50-100 range for these games since you have to make sacrifices. These sacrifices really improve build variety imo since you can try wacky builds without them being doomed to fail.
Like if you love hearing Saint’s voice for an extended period of time.
Lol "I don't want to one shot people" @17:45 hornet ring switch 1 shot riposte immediately.
This is the most self-aware meta video yet. You might even say it's...
M E T A
E
T
A
The Street Fighter community is EXACTLY the same. SF3 lovers bashing ppl who like 4 and those players bashing ppl who like 5 etc. There's always going to be arguing when each new release is drastically different.
i think the same happens with smash bros.
Jinxed Swashbuckler Yeah Tekken fans are pretty chill and I'd say that's because it's a legacy game with not a whole lot of changes from each release. If you played Bryan 10 years ago, you could pick him up today and feel pretty much at home. Plus Tekken 7 is amazing so that doesn't hurt lol
Jinxed Swashbuckler
I mean, prior to that the Tekken community was shit. This is true for Dead or Alive, KoF, Killer Instict, fucking anything.
i never understood the division between all the souls games in the community...
all of them are good and fun. sure its subjective, one likes ds1 better and the other likes ds2 better, and we should never forget that ds3 brought a lot of new gamers to those titles so even ds3 is important even though the pvp is kinda meh.
but at the end, diversity is a gift not a weight.
on a side note, FS should have put some money in advertising the multiplayer too in dark souls.. i mean there is ppl who really think that invasions are more of a glitch then an actual game mechanic but on the other hand they summon 3 phantoms...lots of peeps could enjoy the unique pvp but there is still some misunderstanding going on... FS slept on it IMO
same as any other flame war, people just love to hate on their closest neighbor
JunoJupiter GLRR It's totally normal. Each game has very different PvP and if you're passionate about one over the others, you're going to defend it. Every argument starts with someone saying "DS X is trash."
JunoJupiter GLRR So true. I can't believe we're 10 years into this and invasions are the most misunderstood aspect of the game from mainstream game news and Reddit subs. That's why there's a LOT of Souls fans dissapointed about Sekiro. Not so much at From, but also because no other developer has shown any interest in implementing it.
One of my favorite things to do in these games involves breaking them and building obscenely overpowered twinks. I have a Brandon build at SL30 in DSR. Great Magic weapon gives you 198 AR with the Oolacile cat. Pair that with a raw Shotel and you have 410 AR that goes through shields. I loved twinking my SL60 Bloodborne Chikage out with 31.5 Bloodtinge gems and oneshotting hosts with an R1. I love oneshotting gankers at SL99 in the woods with WoG and Power Within. I loved beating Artorias at SL20 with no upgrades to get my Dark Bead. I loved beating him at 40 to get the Gold Tracer. Your Dark Ring twink in DS3 gave me a hardon, especially because that game was so hard to break.
But I love DS1 the most because there's an endless variety of broken things you can do, which all vary depending on the SL, and nearly every stat in the game can enable its own broken tactic. Leo Ring and Halberd? Pretty strong. Leo Ring, Halberd, and Dragon Roar? Now you're thinking with oneshots. That kind of brokenness is a lot more interesting to me, in general, than "slap a straight sword on it" 3.
Ive been playing (dming) dnd for almost 2 years now and I see it poping up everywhere these days, and i love it when it comes up in your vids. Love your vids in general, so keep it up!
Good Lord, early American punk beats early English punk by a mile
SmBusinessOwner r/whoosh
Wooshception
Rehvion Or it was bait and you got r/whooshed
Ramones >>>>>>>> Sex Pistols. The Clash, though? There’s more debate to be had here than you’re giving the topic credit for, sir.
Kappa
Totally serious comment and really not a troll - nearly every "top 100 album" list I read has London Calling near the top, and I think it is a VERY average album. I'm completely willing (and inclined) to think that I'm missing something.
What am I missing?
Do the dungeon master voice!
I would listen 2 hours of you explaining your lore on darksouls and PvP.
I should be making videos of builds that people hasn't perfected yet. I do have a list of builds i have in mind in ds3 so far.
I've spent over 500 hours in ds3 pvp and I never knew this shortcut... damn. thank you Saint
I could listen to hours of your hilarious observations and ways of phrasing things.
Interesting video. Just various thoughts and facts:
Bloodbornes gem system actually works multiplicatively so using two 14% gems doesn't give you 28% but more! In this specific case the difference is fairly neglegible but it becomes quite noticable when we consider the depth 5 gems. Although winter lantern gems are a very good compromise, relatively easy to get and still powerful. Like 10-15% weaker than dungeon gems.
As for the BL "meta" increase, it's not exactly because of HP but rather because just about the only way of gaining defenses is straight leveling, no matter what. Your def is essentially tied to your level unlike souls where solely int influences magical def and such. At least that's what I believe, Im not that deep into BB.
Definitions change over time and depending on the context. New words are invented and all that. It's nice to know the origins but today's application is often times different.
Also I'd totally listen to you for an hour. You have a nice voice and solid content. But probably rather more as a podcast thing which YT isn't all that great for, not as a video with footage in the background.
Seeing my beloved bloodborne pvp makes me wonder how they are going to shit on it introducing ds3's matchmaking into the remaster in 2023, instead of doing the most sensible thing, saint riot's gospel: thou shalt be allowed to beat the game with a fully upgraded weapon, but when invading someone's world, thou shalt get your weapon downgraded to match the host's level instead of just being left out of the tier system entirely.
I remember the old Meta in DS3 was 120/125 and to some extent it still is. Whenever the community organized PVP covenants erupted, a second meta at 140 was created and I think that one was arguably stronger than the 125 because for a good while there was significantly more activity at 140 however it was exclusively limited to Gank City. when Ds3 had mode players though, you could find people running NG+ just about anywhere and that was fantastic.
Great vid as usual saint!
PvP was and will always be broken
Also, you say the meta changes at the drop of a hat, but in bloodborne, I dropped my tophat at bloodlevel 120 and I instantly got invaded!
Really enjoyed the insight, almost logged off after investing 4 and a half minutes on getting the answer to dks meta. But I definitely understand where you’re coming from.
Love the D&D explanations of meta. I’ve been playing and DMing for a couple years, so that’s what meta has always meant to me
Great video it is nice to have a voice of sanity on the meta, I have a phrase that always helps me enjoy dark souls 1-3 it is " dark souls is a game I play not a game I win". If you think about the lore of the game its literally telling you this. I am also greatly looking forward to part 2 of this.
I will just say this, most of the people who agree with you usally stay silent.
This time I didn't
My profile name speaks the truth in that statement.
Lords of the Fallen has best PvP
I personally have always been one to advocate for "use what you want"
If you have a weapon/tactic/etc you like, and aren't one of those people that only care about winning, who really cares what the meta is? Use whatever you feel like you enjoy using. Granted, invasions and duels don't always allow for you to use the same weapon all the time if you do want to win, and you may have to switch around some, but the idea is I feel people shouldn't feel roped in by the fact that some weapon is better than another. Sure, straight swords are great in DS3, but do you have to use one to win? No. Will you be more likely to win if you use one? Eh.. Debatable, but a lot of people will say "yes".
I'm like you, Saint. I've enjoyed all the Soulsborne PvP for different reasons, and have always tried to push the idea in each game that yes, while some things are objectively better than others, who really cares? We won't always win, but you don't anyways even with meta and a lot of skill. Keep up the good work, as always.
What I like about using my own build, even though it is not flawless, it is that players who invades me actually send me messages to congratulate me for fighting my own way. I'm one of those using poison throwing knives to try to have an advantage, and that is noticed by long time players.
The community isn't only meta players, there are players just here to have fun, creating their own original character. And they end up friending each other to have duels again :D
"how divided can one community be" you just described humanity there pal
Dark souls 2 offers the most unique builds
Hey Saint - thought-provoking commentary as usual. My only disagreement with you is that you seem to be arguing that because all the Souls games are broken in some way, it is pointless to have a debate about the relative merits and whether one is better.
While I agree that all the games have ways in which they are broken, DS 1 is SO much more broken than DS 3. In fact, i see DS 3 as a culmination of all the lessons From learned from making the earlier games.
Assuming From learns from their mistakes, they could see that things like passive poise, single-check backstabs, and poor matchmaking resulted in bad PvP. That's not to say that DS 3 is perfect - it isn't. It's also not to say DS 1 can't be fun - it can.
I make mistakes today, and i made mistakes 10 years ago, but hopefully the mistakes of 10 years ago were bigger than the ones today, and just because I made mistakes at both ages doesn't mean that you can point to Today Amish and 10 Years Ago Amish and be nihilistic about the differences.
With how many times riot went from making sense to making zero sense in this video gave me whiplash
Can I just say Saint, I enjoy you sharing your opinion about topics that a lot of people get super toxic about. You are the cool headed guy who explains there is something wrong with every game and no singular one is perfect. I, like you I'd like to think, like every souls game for different reasons. Me personally, I can't say Wich one I liked the best because they all brought something to the table. Also, I love your commentary. Much love my dude
i appreciate that smack down you put on those two dudes at the end.
0:35 - 1:13 is absolutely hilarious and so true
Mate, I'd have totally watched a 40 minute video saintrGuessdie
Well said though.
"Nobody wants to hear me talk for 40 minutes", that Mr. Saint Riot, is where you are wrong
HE WILL NOT DIVIDE US
but what did the dks 2 players say???
Hey saint do you still play d&d? If so would you ever consider streaming or podcasting a session? Just wondering.
"I wouldn't WANT to oneshot anyone" *oneshots someone*
Gosh, now I REALLY want to play D&D with you, Saint.
It sounds like you're familiar with 5th edition?
I loved this honestly. At some point I think people need to remember this is just a video game it is meant to be fun. Do whatever you enjoy no matter if it is "meta" or not. As long as you are having fun that's all that matters in my eyes!
Great video saint!
Meta level isn't entirely arbitrarily decided in all cases. At least in DS3 meta invasion level depends entirely on where you want to invade, whereas 120, the overall meta level, is just the meta level for duelling. But for mid or low level invasions the meta SL/WL range for optimal activity is determined by what people would be when going through those areas.
seeing that you mentioned adaptability, i was wondering what your thoughts were about it? Also relieved to hear you haven't completely given up on ds2.
Thanks for explaining.
Now I gotta figure out this dilemma. I like getting stronger and better, I love to WIN.
However I also like playing on fair grounds. I value sportsmanship. (Even though I am shit at showing it.)
Is it better to play and focus on character development. (How powerful can I build this character up)
Or is it better to fix my stats at a certain value to play with friends? 🤔
You say no one wants to listen to you talk for 40 minutes but I've been checking all day for your part 2.
Today, I'm thankful for saint_riot, for he articulates what I'm thinking, but he also uses the dungeon master voice while doing it. Papa bless.
We need the Gehrman voice to make a return Gehrman.
Dark souls is like star wars. No one hates dark souls more than dark souls fans
Some things never change.
Im guna need a poise ladle build
I have 125 in dks3 and a couple lvl 30's. Does that make me a twink?
Congrats on 14k, now come to the discord you scrub
these videos cured my insomnia. thanks Saint!
How do you have stacks of 99 boss souls?
Another way to describe what meta gaming is; if someone makes a dark bead mage build to gank with, they’re meta gaming. They aren’t playing a mage with dark bead because they enjoy the play style, but because they know it 1-2 shots players.
Excellent commentary again. I've had only a few meta lvl characters thought-out DS1-3 since the my 360 days. I got started doing low lvl builds on the 360 to help ID modders(like no Havel monster around lvl 30 will be fast rolling, using big weapons and casting spells). The low lvl builds thing just kinda stuck when I got on the Xbox One. Anyways like you I have no beef with meta guys and think setting up below one-shot club guys usual lvl range forcing him adjust is great. Wish there was a better way to setup for low lvl dark bead/pursuer guys. But whatever those guys will be out there like the raw Dragonslayer axe guys on DS3.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT THE DUnGEon meStar viice
What’s your build at the beginning of the vid?
I wonder if you know how good this video actually is. It's amazingly profound.
I would listen to you rant for 40 minutes lol I learn a lot from your videos keep it up
The video is meta by all the definitions of the word.
40 minutes of Saint talking? My ears would be blessed.
You know its interesting. I watched this video while uploading a video about using weapons that, "aren't meta," and how to make them work for you.
The punk rock comparison was apropos.
Saint: "...Try sub meta..."
I can't recommend this enough. I built a "saint inspired" SL 35 character that allowed me to run around to different places and invade a lot of not-so-meta areas. I've sunk at least 20 hours of invasions in that character, and they are my honest-to-god first actual PvP build. It's been a damn roller coaster, but as time went on a beautiful thing happened: *I* made adjustments; *I* found what worked better, or what I needed. It wasn't the game or the meta-game but *my* reactions and *my* philosophy behind the playing the game.
Saint talks about people making ridiculous meta builds too, as if they are forced to use these builds because "it's what you're supposed to do". Fuck all that. Reject the Giant Dad and Havel Mom builds. It's going to take away from the game with time, and it makes you lose that creative edge. I was invaded just yesterday by someone that. When I started out PvP, I would have assumed the invader knew more than me just by how they looked. Giant Dragon Greataxe (or whatever), more Poise than they needed, and that flamey Nito magic where sword-hands touch your butt and send you flying. This was at SL 40, or thereabouts. I started fighting them with this undeveloped character, and you know what? They eventually killed me.
However, before that fight was over, I embarrassed the ever living crap out of them as I back stabbed them over and over and over. Why? Because I was better equipped mentally for a battle around that level; I understood the game better than them, and both of us knew it. Their only resort was to use their Nito Brand Touchy-Touchy to one shot me. Sure, they "won", but who really won? Is that guy going to keep playing the game if he either: one shots everyone, or gets absolutely shit on? No, because he's going to get too mad, or too bored. I won because I was joking about it the whole time-I was having fun.
Hearts and minds, people. Hearts and minds.
really good video, but i do have to make a quick point. ive played all 3 souls games and bloodborne, and honestly i normally end up at 80-100 for all of them. while that definitely isnt quite meta level, it definitely isnt as impossible as you say to end up at those levels by the end of a normal NG cycle.
meta for me is the playstyle i like to use and the playstyle that is comfortable for me (outside of other playstyles to improve myself).
2 for the price of 1? In fighting games I believe this is called a “happy birthday”.
Wow...been playing d&d for 11 years now, and hearing someone talk about meta gaming in d&d to compare to dark souls pvp is quite interesting. (Can't wait till revan says some shit about saints vid), Have a nice day Saint.
you did the thing HE DID THE THING
9:12 Damn it
If it's fun and I get to rip apart people with my ridiculous tank builds.
That's perfect for me.
I assure you, saint, that I do indeed want you to talk for 40 minutes.
Go for it, Saint!~
Thanks for speaking on this bro
I thought i was being broad minded about the eccentric aspects of the different from games until you said you could upload anything, including ds2.
best pvp: dark souls 2> everything else
best pve: who the fuck cares
I wanna hear ya talk. So informational
meta level in DS3 kinda makes sense for +2 rings. Then ringed city had to take a massive {} on that.
Who lives far from MacDonalds but can still connect to it's WiFi.
DS3 was my first Souls game, and it glued me to evasion-based combat, hence why I’m not really into DSR and DS2 so much.(I’ve been dying to play Bloodborne “but it ain’t on the PC”) Gotta say that DS3 is definitely broke, just differently than the others, as Saint said, and that’s fine, I still play it because I think it’s fun. All the shit that came from the community got summed up and trivialized damn well in this video, so good job Saint. It sadly is sounding like the community doesn’t even like the games they play, they’re just being competitive and petty. All this meta stuff is indeed arbitrary so why is everyone so damn salty over it? It was picked FOR you, you are NOT obligated to follow it, no one really cares if you do or don’t. You don’t have to fight dark beads and gold tracers, or in the case of DS3, dark build + chaos dagger parry fishing/ r1 spamming meta lords. Remember Dark Souls is a game, and that it is supposed to be FUN, just have fun how you see fit, there will likely be invasions/ PvP action wherever you go, be it SL7 or SL600. I personally dig SL60-90 rockin Dex-Int to Dark builds(lore reasons), and have yet to get hatemail or anything of the like for using what I enjoy.
I feel like this video doesn't address the issues with the Bloodborne meta. Your build is ultimately only going to be as successful as the quality of the gems you farm, your stat placement, and your weapon of choice. Lowering level does not change the value of these gems, so you're still going to have 1-3hko matches in any location but a fight club. Most FC's are not very active either, so if you want some action, you will have to go to hotspots at some point. Removing gems from the equation will not improve the situation because of the way weapons were balanced. For example, the Beast Cutter has C/E physical scaling and a mediocre D arcane scaling parameter. It was designed to be used in conjunction with a heavy abyssal gem and blunt gems. An arcane version must use two cold abyssals and a 27.2% elemental gem to have reasonable damage. Even then, it's not remotely close to the physical variant's potential. The whole issue with gems is simply that cursed gems push AR far beyond what should have been acceptable while gems without a curse were designed to be used ubiquitously. FromSoftware rushed Bloodborne's release so that they could focus their efforts on pushing Dark Souls 3 out as quickly as possible, so no effort was made to bring maximum AR or gem values down to reasonable levels. The unfortunate side of this BL70 FC is that you remove gems that were meant to somewhat balance the game for strength and arcane (heavy abyssal and cold abyssal). Take away those gems and a lot of weapons like the beast cutter fall way behind while skill weapons such as rakuyo and blade of mercy, which have excellent single-stat scaling, take the forefront in pvp. BL70 gemless clubs create as many or more problems than they solve. So do BL150's. The point of a meta build is that you maximize your main stats at the lowest level possible. Properly designed physical builds would have 50vit and 50 in a single damage stat at BL100 with a little room for endurance or miscellaneous stats. That is why the community set a meta level at 100 very early on. It wasn't some random, arbitrary value where the game was most broken and abusable. To try and say so would be a lie because low-level builds are subject to being more vulnerable to things such as firearms while split damage weapons that normally take nourishing gems are chopped at the knee with regard to damage output. Players coming over from Dark Souls pushed that BL100 meta up to 120 "because hey, 50/50 quality is viable". It's bloated and ridiculous, but what do you do when more than half of the community pushes for the extra 20 stat points so they can 2-shot invaders and vit-gouge? Pushing the meta higher might result in more vitality, but it does not change the number of hits to KO because AR scales right along with it.
I think your estimate on Soul Level ranges is a bit low on beating all the bosses and finishing the game. Many, many players will try to *at least* hit Lv. 100 before they beat the game. I did, although that was mostly for my first play-throughs, (except Bloodbourne). Some will even go to 150 or even 180 to beat the DLCs for DS3. I think the meta level is pretty much whatever level feels like your character is "complete". Like, you can wield all the weapons you need without having to Min/Max and wear appropriate armor you need for your class without fat-rolling. Of course that's all pretty subjective, some people feel like they "need" to be able to cast Chaos Bed AND one-hand Ledo's great-hammer and still be able to wear a full Knight's set.
I suppose I guess I'm just trying to say that most players have this threshold they need to hit where afterwards they don't see much of a point in leveling up anymore, which I'd say is like 120-140.
META = best weapon, best tactics.
done saved ya 22mins
I was just wondering what is the soul level meta in Dark Souls Remastered... there are so many opinions!
SL 120/125/130/150????
I planned all my builds at SL 130 because it seems in my opinion the most versatile... is it too high?
(...Still I am hoping FROMSOFT puts embered health in the arena in Dark Souls 3, because it would be fucking awesome...)
Official meta levels are 50, 100 and 200.
Source: arena matchmaking brackets.
Jinxed Swashbuckler But that's only because people decided that they liked that level. There's no reason to go to 120 or 130 other than having additional HPs or stamina. The true soul level soft caps are those put by the developers in the game.
Talking about Dark Souls 3 arena (NOT INVASIONS) :
How could it be like if players fought in the arena exclusively with UNAPGRADED weapons?
Dark infused, Chaos infused, Blessed, Crystal, Lightning whatever.
Just their full meta level build (SL 140) and their favourite weapons, flames, talismans, chimes, staffs and buffs, but everything at plus 0.
Maybe it could be fun?
Fight would last longer I guess...
Since FROM doesn’t want to give us embered health in the arena.
(maybe doing this after ng+, because the need of course to upgrade weapons to beat the game).
Would love to see this being tried.
Jinxed Swashbuckler Hmm...
Then maybe upgrading in between? Like for example just +6 and +3?
Oh saint riot I'll watch whatever you uploud just have fun
Dark Borne 3: Demon of the first sin have the best pvp.