Cool Your House with CHILLED WATER
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- Опубліковано 22 лип 2024
- Kristof from positiveenergy.pro introduces to us radiant cooling panels on his office ceiling. Stay cool during the heat of the summer with no forced air!!!
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My Dad did this in the 1960s with a self-made system that pumped "ground" cooled fluid, not water, but water and antifreeze, through our radiators. It came in at around 50-60 degrees F, good enough to cool the house down to 75-80 on the hottest summer days. The radiators sweat. but that was easy to clean up if it meant a cool house to Mom. The water pipe system ran underground into a cavern pond near the house that always stayed cool where it radiated the heat. He developed the idea from his Dad who owned an old west saloon where they kept beer cold by storing the beer barrels in an underground dugout cellar.and piping the beer up to the tap. If they could get ice from an ice house, then the ice would be placed onto the kegs to help. I'm still using it, and right now today was 110 degrees and inside it was 85.
Hi, may I know how can you turn it off on winter? I'm interested in your system. Thank you ^^
@@AnhNguyen-ul6lb just turn off the pump and the water in the radiator won't be moved to the heat sink (in this case, a lake), and therefore the radiators will be the same temperature as the air in the room. all you'd need to do is connect the pump to a thermostat and it would shut off automatically.
How much is the electricity cost compared to an a/c?
@@kimie126 an electronic water pump that circulates the water (just the pump, no heat exchanger or anything else ) would consume about 200watts. an 12.000btu a/c would consume about 2000 watts, so 10 times difference in electricity costs
Have you had condensation issues behind the wall or is the condensation just at the radiators in the room?
Please, please do more on radiant cooling. It’s a technology hardly spoke of, but seems to have some advantage. I’m trying to do research, but not a ton out there, definitely not much on you tube.
there are some companies in Tamil Nadu India that do this. they also have demo buildings setup. it's on UA-cam...
The reason it's not getting wet with condensation is NOT because you have a dehumidifier. It's because the temperature of the cooling panels is above the dew point. If you take a glass of water out of the fridge it gets wet but if you take a bottle from your wine cellar into the house it won't, because it's just not cold enough. Same principle here. You need a larger surface area with the lower temperature difference though, hence the large ceiling panels.
If you're in a mild temperate climate like Canada, northern USA, Europe or New Zealand, you could run this without a dehumidifier.
Humidity and Temperature both contribute to dew point, it's not an issue of one or the other; both must be managed for a system to be successful.
Maybe it would be fine in Canada and New Zealand, but it only take a homeowner that enjoys more humidity than the system can handle to cause a failure.
Better to have the dehumidifier and not need it most of the time, than need it and not have it all of the time.
need a follow up program on this project and this technology...
I love how the office in the background has a ceiling fan on.
Everyone's internal thermostat is different.
76 wouldn't work for me. 70-74 and below works fine though.
". . .There is no air movement, we don't have any fans going. . ." *I Look over his shoulder* . . .There is a ceiling fan running hahahahaha!!!!
Please explain how the fan in the other room is moving air over Risinger's body?
He was saying this system would eliminate the need for fans.
Joseph, I watched the video again and I cannot find anywhere that either of them say this eliminates the need for ceiling fans. Risinger was simply stating that the space they currently occupy has no fans on and yet it is still comfortable. You can choose not to believe him, but let's be accurate when discussing what was said.
I do the same thing on a small scale with my computer in the winter. It is water cooled, but I live in Colorado and it gets to like negative 20 in the winter. Rather than pump additional heat under my desk, I run the water lines to a huge radiator I have outside. It is almost completely silent, and actually functions better than my normal water cooling in the summer.
I thought of this before myself just laying in bed at night. Nice to see it in operation. Personally I don't see it being popular in homes but my hats off to y'all for the engineering work.
Wow. Looking forward to hearing more as this progresses. Thanks for highlighting it, Matt
This may be a first for residential, but I work in commercial HVAC and have seen many similar systems with chilled ceilings and chilled slab floors. Good controls are critical to ensure the no condensation occurs on the system.
it's been a while now. Did you ever put together a follow-up on these guys?
I'm doing sort of the same thing. More geothermal though. Ground water temp in Northern michigan where I am is roughly 42 to 47 degrees during the summer months and I just pump that to coils in the furnace and use the furnace to distribute the cold air. uninsulated I get 62 degree temps from the vents. I am only pumping 1 gpm of ground water through the system with about 180k btu of coils. Cost to keep the house 74 in the summer was about $25 per month figuring the electric for the Furnace, water pump and control solenoids. Cheap. I also ran a dehumidifier to control moisture levels.
I had a similar system installed. It is very comfortable. When the air is moist however, you need to adjust the water temperature using a mixing valve to avoid condensation. This in turn lowers the cooling capacity and you need some fancoils as a backup for those hot and moist days. The fancoils can make use of the same water chiller unit used for the ceiling. The control circuit has to react correctly to changes in temperature and humidity. This kind of system is very comfortable, but quite expensive.
To install or operate?
Back in 2011 went to the porsche museum in Stuttgart Germany with a family friend, that night her BF said that one of his design projects for the company he worked for designed the "radiant" cooling panels in the ceiling on the museum and pulled out a sample from under his desk. It looked similar to this system, only the Pipe was raised on an inverted aluminum T. At the time the company he worked for had installed quite a few of those systems in large building throughout Germany and europe. So the commercial application of this tech has been in use for quite some time in Europe.
I remember seeing a system years ago which used radiators which had troughs and condensate drains underneath. Personally, I'm happy with forced ducted air.
Glad to see this old technology making a comeback with PEX piping and dehumidifiers. I had a radiant heat book from the 1940's that showed ceiling and wall cooling with steel piping and block walls. Cool surfaces will condense water vapor if relative humidity is not controlled. Nice touch.
At first I didn't think it would cool down my house but then the music at the end starts BLARING and all the windows in my house exploded and now I'm 4° cooler.
So thanks for that.
So glad there is a youtube channel for dedicated construction science nerds. Matt Risinger, you make what could be a boring topic into something super interesting. Also great editing, very pro. I'm a new subscriber going on about 3 or 4 weeks now and I've seen well over 50 of your videos now!
This is next level heating pad cooling for maximum energy efficiency. Seen this in a Chinese scyscraper and had to Google to see if it available for home in the US. Thanks for the info
When we build our house in North MS in the next two years, we are going with double stud wall framing and 12 inches of dense pack cellulose along with a Canadian window company's tilt and turn triple glazed windows and hydronic heating and cooling in the slab and ceiling panels like these. Great job on promoting awareness guys!
Have you looked into ICF construction? I am still a few years from retiring and having a home built. I am completely sold on ICF.
@@pennguino9137 Hi, Thanks for the question! We actually looked into ICF construction, but with the huge amount of energy needed to produce concrete, we decided that wood framing was the better choice for us as far as minimizing resources needed for our home. Plus the foam insulation is fairly toxic and nearly impossible to recycle once it is at the end of it's life.
This is amazing! I can't stand the sensation of hot walls and cold air. Now to make it passive by hooking it up to a gravity fed spring water system! Just gotta tackle the problem of dehumidifying passively.
If you have to run a dehumidifier with this setup, you might as well use a small AC unit instead so the latent heat is moved outside instead of being returned to the room. Regular central A/C is probably more efficient than this when you consider energy use for dehumidification.
Depends on the climate. If you're in Florida or northern Australia then yes, you need to dehumidify to be comfortable in summer. If you're in Canada or Europe you could definitely cool the house enough with just a reduction in sensible heat. Here in Brisbane, Australia I ran a simulation on my house (I'm a thermal engineer) and found that the summer cooling load is 50% latent and the "hot winter day" cooling load is 100% sensible. So in places like Vancouver where the summer is equivalent to our winter, you don't need to dehumidify.
I was concerned with condensation also, love the whole house de humidifiers ect. .. I would think to install it pitched just in case of a failure. I think its a great idea, i would like some kind of fan moving the air around unless it ruins the system.
This is an interesting idea. I would think it would be more cost effective as the cooled space got bigger and the humidity wouldn't be as much of a problem in dry areas like AZ and NV. both places that need a ton of cooling. I also like the thought of not having a bunch of leaky air ducts that draw in dirt and blow it all over the house, a bad part of life in a desert. Having to run a dehumidifier during monsoon season would be a tiny price to pay in order to get rid of the dirt on everything. I'll keep an eye on this tech.
I died laughing when he pointed out the dehum
True, a system like this won't be able to condense the humidity out, my concern would be a desire for an air cleaner as well. I'd say if you're in aa humid climate, just supplement this with an air handler that's got an A coil in it, run air through it. it might not be enough to cool the entire space (the air handler) but if sized properly it could solve the humidity problem while still contributing to the cooling.
But it seems what is what they did...
I think the solution there is combining this kind of thing with a high velocity small duct system. I know not everyone does, but personally, with my allergy issues, I want the air constantly being replaced with purified air.
@@compactc9 Yes. But as for me just give me a mini split in every room and don't worry about it.
@@2pi628 Hi, i commented this years ago but i think i was making fun of the shoddy workmanship
Pretty slick system I wondered about this with a GC I worked with 12 years ago and his response was "condensation". I have the only geo Thermal heat pump in the the small city in FL where I live. When I dropped my house plans at the building department for my addition and remodel they were dumbfounded. I only wish the engineer that designed my system had a clue so I could get all of the potential out of the ground source.
Could you use something like this design with one of those concrete floors that has pipes inside (for warming the house in winter).
I was just in a house where the homeowners recently added a chiller to their radiant in floor heating system. The husband is in the hydronic and steam heating business, so he knew about this. I was intrigued and asked him a ton of questions about this. I love good cold AC feel, so when I asked how cold it got, and basically they said it’ll easily make you uncomfortably cold, and the best results come when used with a ceiling fan. I think I’m completely sold. I’ll still want some sort of ducted HVAC system to control the humidity and filter the air, but it seems the best actual comfort control is radiant heating and cooling. I looked it up online and in most other parts of the world, this kind of thing has already become the preferred system in commercial buildings, and I think this is how AC will be. Having heard how great it is from someone who’s done this in their house for several years sold me!
He told you it created humidity?
One simple point. Glycol cooling with a chiller. My college uses chillers with their heat exchangers built back in 1950's to keep the buildings cool during the summer. They have been converting from central steam to localized boilers to heat the buildings. Also I'm in HVAC classes and just took a tour of the facilities so get a better understanding of how the school is built.
Does this work best in dry climates? Will it trigger dew-point/condensation from the ceiling, if used in a humid climate?
Is there a good way to dehumidify, when there’s no ducts in a building?
I went to North Penn High School in Lansdale PA and that building, built in 1970 or so,did this same heating/cooling system with radiant panels in the ceiling and it was a complete disaster. The ceiling would sweat so much in the summer that it would literally rain in the downstairs classrooms. I remember taking a quiz and having to repeatedly wipe the desk with a gym towel to have a dry area to place the paper. Plus all the moisture made the panels rust and spring leaks. In the winter the building was abysmally cold, with all the heat stuck up in the ceiling. I think in the late 90’s the district spent millions fixing the problems.
Matt like your show. Just an idea for this application. We do residential and commercial buildings and use fan coil units with boilers and chillers. These can be put into a wall behind sheet rock, don't need dehumidifier, but need to drain condensation somewhere. System still involves a fan so not as comfortable but don't need to control humidity.
This is interesting. Early days yet. The idea of using what you have to get what you need appeals to me a lot.
Great Place to Go! Should have been in southern homes decades ago!
Audacious. I've imagined this would happen eventually but don't know enough to understand the impediments. But it's clear that until this point, they have been insurmountable. Sending you some *positive energy* in support of your proposition. Congratulations on getting your priorities in sustainable order.
while this might be more efficient than standard AC, I think we can make it better. rather than using a chiller to cool the water, which would require a decent amount of electricity to operate, what if we hooked these radiators into a geothermal loop? If we're using the cool temperatures of the dirt deep underground to cool the water, all we would need to operate is a pump to move water through the loop. it would be much cheaper to operate and much better for the environment than any cooling system we have on the market currently, and it would get the water down to about the same temperature, if not a bit cooler, than the chiller he has the radiators connected to.
My personal favourite is a combination of many. Isolate your houses quite well. Build fans that can exchange the whole air in the house throught the night multiple times (To get the free cooled air outside (if its cold enough)) Groundcooling is a very nice solution which can cool stuff down to 12 to 15°C (at a depth of >2m). But with an extensive use in the summer, the earth will heat up and the effect reduces itself. But the heated earth can be reused at the winter for heating purpose :D. When there is still the las "bit" missing, use a small air condition unit which is powered by solar. You need the cooling most the time when the sun is high up, so perfect use case.
My company is cooling down the whole building complex with a similiar approach to groundcooling. Except that they are using the water of a nearby river. It helps to lower the temperature by round about 8 degrees in summer, combined with dehumidification devices it feels good enough.
I've installed too many geothermal system down south - gave nothing but headaches.With geothermal you are only saving the electricity from the fan motor - minus the lower consumption water pump. Savings are negligible. Not worth the heart ache and expense of the installation. The best way is to install a bullet proof, tried and true A/C, w/no efficiency gimmicks. Then add 5000 watts of solar grid tie power to your system($3000 panels + $1500 grid tie inverter) . No batteries, and not even tied to your home. Its tied directly to the grid causing your meter to spin backwards. That's how you get a good, trouble free, high efficient A/C system.
Note: Solar panels have almost ZERO maintenance. Ok, you should clean them every once in a while. Hose the dust off.
FYI- That system would cut your A/C electrical usage by more than 50%. Take a 14 SEER, now its a 28. ;) And if you add enough panels you could completely off set your A/C usage. At 10,000 watts X 6 hours = 60KWh produced vs 3 ton A/C (3000 watts) X 12 hours (run time) = 36KWh consumed. Net gain of 24KWh of electricity. Probably enough to offset your entire bill.
10,000 watts panels = $5000 (only $2500 if you buy at auction), or $10,000 if you don't shop around.
200 AMp Grid tie Inverter = $1500
plus labor.
@@2pi628 I don't mean to connect them to a geothermal heat exchanger, I mean literally just have water running through underground pipes directly into these radiators and then back out into the underground pipes as a means to cool the radiators.
Could use this chiller with existing PEX tubing in a tile floor? With an Air hander moving the air through a whole house dehumidifier?
@Matt - have you ever incorporated chilled beams into a build? While radiant cooling and chilled beams appear to be similar in how they cool, your reservations about radiant cooling has me rethinking adding chilled beams to my home build - should I be cautious doing this?
We need an update on this
Woo! More collabs with Kristof please. I'm a big fan of the Building Science Podcast.
Would this work with a Geo-thermal system. With deeply buried coils of tubing connected to the radiant tubing in the home in a system with a dehumidifier.
This a really neat technology, makes sense and has promise. I wish these people success as I think this is definitely better than most anything I have seen so far. I would like to know what kind of energy figures this is yielding and the energy use under real conditions!
I have a radiant cooled mansion I work on. It’s pretty cool stuff.
Nice video! Would this work in cold climates as well like Minnesota?
We install these all the time in Ithaca NY
Do you run into any fire rating issues using an EPS backer?
Chilled beams they are known as in the U.k, not new technology. We have passive (as in the video) or active where primary air is supplied from an AHU.
Did you guys run the numbers on hooking this up to a ground sourced heat pump? Is the ventilation system using a heat exchanger system?
Would this work with geothermal?
there is a ceiling fan in the room to the right. do wee need ceiling fans to be comfortable ? or that is just to be extra cold?
Interesting idea. But I wonder about dehumidifying. With a ventilator the air goes past a much cooler element so can condense humidity out of humid air to blow out dryer air that feels cooler. While this works over a large area / volume and absolute humidity is not lowered at the same rate (with the same energy spend on cooling).
Having a separate dehumidifier would seem to use more energy.
But this could also work if you'd have a heat exchanger pipes buried in the earth of your yard and pump the water through there.
Not sure about down South but in the midwest reliability is a huge issue with water source heat pumps since the shift to 410 and the repair cost was much higher.
grew up in Texas in the 60s.. Chill water was the only AC we had .. not sure why they got rid of them, best cooling ever.
Time to revisit this Matt!
Had radiant cooling/ heating for a school in Los Angeles school district. The system will only work on mild days, when the temp got above 95 the system was uncomfortable with 30+ kids in a classroom. Now the District is spending millions to retrofit it.
Albert, generals always fight the last war, as the saying goes. People remember the past experience they had in a situation. If the school district purchased inferior quality of a technology that was not yet mature and it was installed sloppily, you will then experience sub-par performance. This does not mean the technology is the fault. In the example, the fault is inferior technology, cheap product and lack or apathy of quality installation and tuning. Heat pump technology is far superior if it is not hobbled every step of the way - especially in a moderate climate like LA. And 30+ kids is like running 30+ 100 watt bulbs, or something like 3-1000 watt heaters.
Chilled Beams. We have those where I work. Been around a long time. Issue is dealing with humidity.
Is the whole house dehumidifier the system that also filters the house air?
Will be interesting to see the fall followup visit. Also a rough cost breakdown of installation and cost savings.
+epicdeuce this is still a "demonstration install ". It's almost ready for prime time but not yet in my book. I'm hoping for a client who wants to be my guinea pig for a real world demonstration
As am I, no doubt you will document it thoroughly. I will be checking back often for more great content.
So the house is lined with water pipes and that connects to a water chiller outside (an ac). The main benefit is water is a better thermal conductor than air so in theory you'd save on how much the compressor needs to run and heating, but if you wanted to try this in an environment with freezing concerns you'd probably need to use a glycol coolant. It would be an entire additional set of plumbing. Also it would be a closed system where you need to worry about corrosion and organic growth considerably more.
can it be done through concrete slab like the flooring is heated with pex?
I just installed a radiant cooling system in a new home we built, the water is cooled by underground water lines buried in the ground below the water level, we have 1/2” pex on 8” center between the Sheetrock and insulation. The ceiling is at 72 degrees, it was 94 degrees out side today, inside it didn’t get any hotter than 73. First day running. No condensation, we live in a dry climate.
Amazing tech . This should take off globally
I'm building a house at the end of the year bring this stuff down to Australia and I'll test it under Aussie conditions.
One year later, how has it been?
Brilliant! Heat rises, so why not just let it, and then absorb it once it hits the ceiling!
I’m not sure about Texas, but up here in MN electricity is about 3-4 times more expensive than natural gas. I would be interested in seeing the data using a natural gas absorption heat pump
I have the bed version of this called Eight Sleep. It changed my sleep life for the better!
Hi, did you review Enertia Homes?
Very cool
AWESOME idea.........
Damn. Game changing. Makes total sense.
@MattRisinger I have a design idea for the walls that will sill allow you to nail and anchor to them.
i have been thinking about using something like this but instead of a power hungry pump to cool the water just make loops under the ground and use the ground as a heatsink and pump the water through a radiator and you could probably cool atleast a room with like only the energy of a small pump and small fan instead of large compressors and large fans.
Mat do something on running pvc?
tube/tubes under ground in to a HRV or a Separate system for cooling
On length an degrees of a 90° day an if this would work not much on U tube
Building a new home an was thinking as i build it i could put this in next to the basement wall
What is the cost to pump cool water and run a large dehumidifier vs running a ac unit ?
Interesting. What a Chilling video.
I would worry about punctures if you were to install something, you wouldn’t be able to drop cable after the fact,
Very cool.
Have you done a follow up on this system?
How does efficiency compare to traditional forced air systems?
Pretty cool.
Hey i did that a few years ago with concreted walls.
but theres a condensations and over humidity problem inside the room.
i've read that this strategy works best in a low humidity environment
its not been over 5 years so wheres the system today? Also does this run up the water bill?
Work just as good in the floor?
How do you catch the condensate?
Where can I get the update on this
As a retired General Contractor, I enjoy the hell out of your Vids.
One complaint; Why the hell does the volume have to vary so much. ???
I'm constantly jumping up to turn the volume UP or DOWN.
AND, at 78 years old with Cancer, Jumping ain't so much fun any more.
Jim L. North Hollywood, CA.
I am only 25 and have issues with the blaring music that comes in all of the sudden
your computer has a loudness equalization in the audio driver settings
My computer is a phone, so no it doesn't.
I really thought it was just me.
I shouldn't be the one equalizing it. The video creator/editors need to learn mixing.
What if it's high humidity and water condenses on the ceiling and drips onto your computer?
I talked to Miguel at Positive Energy last year, and this is now his rent house. P.E. has moved to a bigger space, but he says it still works great over 4 years later.
After looking at this I have the following observation/comments: 1. The system is complex with a lot of tubing, sensors, and controls. This will result in increased first cost and the need for highly skilled commissioning.2. In humid climates you will need a separate whole house dehumidifier and a way (ductc) for the homes air to reach the dehumidifier.3. The system cannot filter out particulates unless you have a way of moving the air and a way(ducts) to get the air to and from the filter4. These work in commercial buildings when they are engineered for inclusion from the start. A more cost effective solution would be a VRF system.
is there a follow up video?
My worry would be maintenance and/or repair. That looks like plastic tubing in the ceiling plates, and all plastic degrades over time. Houses settle and shift. What would be the time and expense in repairing a faulty connection between ceiling plates? Could it be repaired by removing just one plate, or would the entire assembly have to be removed? My first thought was... Ah, Texas. I could see someone accidentally putting a bullet hole through a tile while cleaning a firearm. lol.
The applications for such a technology is typically in a large landed type property in the suburbs.
Is there a reason we are not seeing them why we aren't seeing this applied to apartments in the cities? Would this be a factor of the cooling tank and heat exchange hardware being too large to install in high rise apartment complexes?
I suspect this type of system could make for a really comfortable home if used for both heating and cooling but the humidity issue kind of ups the cost factor due to the need for humidity control and the ducting to move the air around.
And imagine the damage a failure in the dehumidifier could cause.
LOL to the fan on in the office in the upper right hand corner of the screen!
Interesting, I wonder how the effeciency compares to traditional forced air.
I so want this
Lets put it in 360 condos in Tucson Arizona! im ready!
Awesome. It's the future for sure.
OK Matt, it has been a year since this vid. How is the follow-up? Pro or Con.
Matt, what app is that youre using for infrared camera on phone?
+Rich Hayner Flir One app