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When I lived in Toronto, in the late 70s to early 90s, I was engaged in a Salzmann/Gurdjieff group for over 20 years and from the start we were once a week - usually on Sundays early morning - invited to take part of group meditation called 'sitting'. Our task was to be grounded in our physical body, and the instructor sat in front of the group describing verbally how to sense our planetary body - starting from the top of one's head to the toes - we could see firsthand how difficult it was to let go of our issues from the past, from present worries or endeavours, and future plans - from our own identifications and imaginary and neurotic inner world - so most of the time at the beginning - for months in a row - it was such a task to be fully grounded in our body - without being in our thoughts or getting sleepy. Once a week - on weekdays - we had a group meeting and also beforehand we did a 'sitting'. We did sittings at home as well - but it took sometimes years to really develop a 'will' to do it freely - sittings were as important as the movements (or group exercises), which were also taught once a week on weekdays. It was very demanding and real. We were asked to work - not in theory - but to practice the work physically, emotionally and mentally. We were taught a practical method to distinguish between feelings, negative and proper emotions, sensing and thinking. This is such an intimate 'work on oneself' that it is almost impossible to say anything...unless one does it because the benefits are different from one person to another. The work for me was fundamental, it allows the possibility of individuality and presence to oneself and to the collective. One can become his or her own light and refuge. First, become a good-householder...then seek. No bullshit. No empty words. No imaginary love but real compassion. Not easy to work.
The "trick" is to notice the next time this perception reappears -- that means your awareness returned to the observing I you were in at the time. You can call it your "observing I". When in that I, do some inner exercises to try to extend how much time you can spend in that state. To help it gain a bit more influence. The interesting thing for me was that when I return to that I, most of the time I remembered where I was the last time it happened. Each I seems to have its own memories tied to it. You can also (without getting fooled or caught up by imagination) see if you can remember what happened between the last time and this time. Or perhaps, what were you thinking, feeling and how were you behaving just before you woke up? It may give you glimpses of other I's and what they are busy with. Eventually when that "observing I" is much stronger, it can be called a steward. (like a shepherd?) If you self-remember more often, you will notice the other I's and perhaps one day you can write them all down on a sheet of paper to see what you have to work with.
Thank you for the great interview! I grew up in the city of Tbilisi, where Gurdjieff lived and worked. His mother was a Georgian noblewoman, as he said.I learned about his ideas early on and started thinking about traveling to the east, but a little later I got a book by Carl Jung. I realized that I had found what I was looking for and went to Germany.
@@vecv7502 because nobody likes to admit that you are a puppet a machine or alchemist, either way is considered crazy far beyond ordinary existence … being a Neurofeedback therapist a behavioralist, I have to say he is absolutely right
Ouspensky wrote this book not G and guess what O never was willing to acknowledge source of system nor admit that the interlocutor in book was an actual person. Some senior people in his London group knew but kept it quiet
@@donnasherwood283Lol what. You know that this books was supposed to be called 'Fragments of an Unknown Teaching' because the books only contained a fragment of Gurdjieff's teachings.
It was so heart warming to see this video. About 20 years ago when I was in college both these men had such a tremendous impact on me. The openness, the intelligence, and the good will of these men is so damn rare nowadays. It can't be said enough that the world needs and lacks people like this. Nice to see how healthy and sharp both Charlie and Jeffrey still are. Charlie with his slow and honest cadence and Jefferey with his cheerful and thoughtful questioning and topped by that idiosyncratic smile. Bless you guys for still doing what you do. This video should get a billion hits in my opinion. I remember once meeting Charlie at a consciousness conference when I was young and full of meditative zeal and I was asking him all these questions to find out how I could meditate more perfectly and he turned and told me "Why don't you try meditating imperfectly." Those words right there hit me like a brick and was exactly what I needed at the time. Since then my meditation practice has grown a lot though I'm still on the infinite path of learning but I owe Charlie so much. Jefferey also was the first to intelligently interview some of the greatest spiritual minds of our century and introduced me to the works of so many people. Thank you both from the bottom of my heart for what you've done. May your work live forever and both continue to live lives of peace, positive influence, and equanimity.
Dr. Tart, while describing Gurdjieff's perspective, is almost exactly describing the Tibetan Buddhist philosophy regarding dream and sleep. It's becoming awake, waking up from our waking dream. It may not be precisely so, but it is quite close.
*_In A Course In Miracles, the Author informs the student that he is not actually Awakening. No, he has A Dream of Awakening. For, as The Ra Material says, we are still in 3rd density -- the place of illusion, of dreams; where we are forged in the fire. Plato's Cave comes to mind. ACIM says there is only one dream worth having: the dream of Awakening. It's the one dream that leads to something Else. Because it points the way Out of sorrow. But it is still a dream._*
See, this is why I like older people mostly more than my own generation. This is important, your average person staring at their phone will never learn anything like this and will never hear of Gurdjieff and others...We really are a species with amnesia as Graham Hancock says...I love this show, even the older ones, please try and get Graham Hancock on the show, that would be brilliant.
Again .... THANK YOU, THANK YOU to the both if you for this insightful and most informative interview - out of all the minutes in my day ... the 27 or so minutes spent listening to your interviews, Jeffery, are always well spent and so worth it !
I was doing some Gurdjieff mental exercises back in my 20s, which I totally forgot now, and they would seem to be shifting my consciousness in ways I could almost grasp and then, about a week into the exercises, sitting on a train commuting to work, as I looked out the window at the trees, I suddenly felt a profound shift in my consciousness which is difficult to explain just as he says around 10.45 - 11 minutes in this video. Somehow, I momentarily felt gigantic as if I was looking at earth from outer space, but the sensation didn't really match what I was seeing through my eyes since nothing visually had changed, and that discrepancy is what made the awareness slip away as quickly as it came. I immediately tried to bring it back, tried to see the trees the same way again, but couldn't quite grasp what it was exactly I'd seen since it did not quite seem any different but my sense of awareness seemed to be coming from further away. I had a sense of omniscience. It was amazing feeling and weird enough that it shocked me immediately back into ordinary awareness wondering what had happened and trying to get back to the "giant omniscient" awareness. But, of course, the more you try to get into a meditative state that slipped away the harder it is and so, too, it was with this fleeting awareness.
@Munshi Mattson interesting timing in your response! On my walk yesterday, I was sort of re-experiencing something that happened not too long before the experience on the train. A similar experience that had to do with visual perception as well but I don't want to try to explain. I remember with the first experience I had been reading PD Ouspensky's "Tertium Organum" which caused me to have interest in Gurdjieff and with the train experience you described as "self-remembering," I was reading Gurdjieff Fourth Way instructions I had downloaded from the internet. After reading your comment, I Googled "Gurdjieff how to self remember" and found what I believe is the same website I downloaded those instructions from 23 years ago. There is a PDF there called "self-remembering.pdf" and the instructions seem to be describing the sort of thought process I was naturally following when I had that first experience. That first experience seemed like I was about to have a big breakthrough in awareness and the train incident came after. The first experience was a prolonged moment of observation and analyzing the nature of perception. It seemed like the light that bounced off objects and entered my eyes was actually the thing that connects everything together in a way that is beyond normal understanding. I can't explain it, but it seems like I stumbled on the self-remembering technique by accident (unless perhaps Ouspensky mentioned something about it in Tertium Organum; at this point I don't remember).
@Munshi Mattson I actually haven't done a damn thing with Gurdjieff's system since a few years after that when I read all kinds of silly nonsense about humans and the earth being food for the moon, which G said was supposedly a baby planet. :) G did some amazing things in his life, but I don't think his system was complete and a lot of it is bs. Anyway, I haven't really been studying alone. Ouspensky and Gurdjieff was sort of the first thing that affected my mind just by reading about it, but I went on to study and receive various teachings. I've had plenty of experiences over the years, but I don't get hung up on any of them. If I have experienced any glimpse at enlightenment, it's not what I would call enlightenment, so either people exaggerate what enlightenment is or I haven't had much of a glimpse at all, despite those various experiences. So, I don't think there's much danger of my false personality checkmating itself considering it's been doing that since the day I was born, anyway. I am pretty convinced of the unreality of things, but it seems real to me, despite what I believe in theory. I don't expect to break the illusion in this lifetime. Honestly, I've given up. I just remember stuff occasionally and think, "oh yeah, it would be nice to give that another shot," but after 20-some years doing different practices, I'm just not that interested in putting so much time into any kind of practices or mental training, not even non-meditation. About the only thing I am interested these days is dream work (lucid dreaming, dream yoga). Because I can do it while I sleep.
Wow, I feel so much better now -- if the brilliant Dr. Tart had trouble "getting" Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, then I don't feel quite so inadequate ... I remember years ago trying to tackle the books of both these men, finding them fascinating, but also extremely vexing and frustrating because just when you think you are getting a handle on what they are talking about, you get lost in a dense set of thorny concepts ... but it's strange, because there is a weird sort of intuitive feeling that you are learning something new somewhere in the "back of your brain" -- anyway -- many thanks for this excellent interview!!
People call it the 4th way, but it has always been called The Work, by those who truly partake in the lineage of it, where the practice lives in those who correctly received it. It's not about "getting it", that's not the point. Unless getting it are the stripes of receiving the taste of what it means to truly see your state, as it is. The ideas, as you try, they grow alone side it. If one is truly to understand it only with their intellect, depending on their intellect, it will more or less just go to serve your ideas about yourself, it will only become fodder for your sleep, the mechanical part of your intellect, which greatly is the majority of our function, will just make it, its own. So it will help you to sleep. The idea is that the concepts would attract you to the real possibility of being assisted into the practice, which opens up much more than just the formatory part of your mind. That perhaps as you work, something can begin to pass through all of that falsity, come to that part of you that is more lawful to your origination in existence.
You might also find it worth your while to investigate the works of Carlos Castaneda. His work is very complimentary to that of Gurdjieff. Sometimes it can be very helpful to have such esoteric ideas (in numerous cases virtually identical ideas) explained from a different yet resonate point of view.
even if you don't understand the book, you are making it about your ego. I think you have mixed up your inadequate quality with your self. Your self cannot be given a label. That is intellectual development in Gurdjieffian sense.
Many decades ago, an English Banker, Mr. Tiarks, told me the following story: He had visited Gurdjieff personally in Paris. Leaving, Gurdieff went with him to the entrance-door of the building, where his car was parked in front. Like by magic, the door of his empty car did open by ITSELF, to let him in ...
Gurdjieff was among one of the first people to suggest that the erosion of the Sphinx was caused by water weathering. He served as an inspiration to (the late John Anthony West) to further pursue this avenue of evidence with Dr. Robert Shoch. Again, powerful!
The 3 Brained Beings originated with Plato's analogy of Man as a Chariot (Flesh) draw by horses (Emotions) with a driver (intelligence), but in the early Tarot versions without reins, so Man in his normal state has no control over his emotions.
George Ivanovich Gurdjieff is usually described as a mystic...but above all he was a researcher of very great ability and insight...with his research question being the purpose of human life on this good planet and as part of this undertaking to understand objectively how human beings actually function...Beezelbub's Tales to his Grandson...is the main result of his research...an epic and challenging work...made perhaps more readable by Gurdjieff's own highly developed sense of humour...he wrote this book in such a way that it can only be read with a considerable effort of attention...and using a method called 'scatter'...where pieces of information of very great value are buried so to speak...deep...in writings which at times seem somewhat unusual...
I have a neuroscientist friend, who believes that, not only is free will an illusion, but so is consciousness. I trend to think of the "I" as like a car with passengers all taking turns to be the driver. Often the 'I's fight to drive as the car moves. Even if the 'system' failed, Gurdjieff left a valuable legacy that maybe can be refined with our new knowledge of the brain and the Universe. He did the best he could at the time and should always be remembered and respected for that.
If consciousness is an illusion, then we can feel free to believe that your neuroscientist friend knows nothing and we can ignore anything he says. It is impossible to process any thought or theory, including all scientific theories, without consciousness.
Perhaps consciousness seemed to your friend to be an illusion because consciousness of his consciousness eluded him. And that would in turn have disabled him from being conscious of free will. The reason I suggest this is because consciousness is exactly what enables free will. If we are, as Gurdjieff taught, asleep, or going about life in a state of "waking sleep," then we are going about life in a very mechanical manner. Our machine-like habits and reactions to stimuli dominate all of our actions and virtually nothing we do is an act of free will, because while living (existing) in such a low level of consciousness our mechanicalness prevents us from acting freely. Anyone stuck at this low level of existence will be unable to see, feel, think or act outside of their own limitations. If we begin to wake up, we begin to become more conscious and less mechanical. As we become less mechanical, we become less trapped by the limitations of our habits and reactions. This frees us to begin making a few choices that are not subject to long-practiced habits and reactive behavior. It is the injection of consciousness into the mechanicality of the Universe that opens the way for freedom of choice. As Gurdjieff explained, there are different orders of laws that rule what can happen in the Universe. In the complex hierarchy of the Universe that G described, here on Earth we live under many orders of laws that rule the mechanicality of what is possible. But sometimes things happen that seem to defy this mechanicality. Such things surprise us and we may be inclined to attribute them to magical or miraculous or supernatural causes or forces. Yet, everything happens according to the Natural Laws of the Universe, except not everything is governed by the same level or order of the laws of the Universe. Any person who is more conscious (less asleep) may sometimes be able to exercise their free will and do things that to others will seem magical or miraculous, while to the person doing them these things will seem quite ordinary and quite subject to Natural Laws, albeit at a higher level or order of laws. If seemingly miraculous or magical or supernatural things seem to happen, they are still Natural, but they are Natural to some higher order of Natural Law. And, as a person becomes more conscious, they will be able to sometimes rise above the limitations of the lower orders of Natural Law that govern what sleeping people are capable of knowing and understanding and "doing" in their mechanical existence. In such an awakened station in life, they will be able to exercise some degree of free will, making conscious choices and actually be able to "do" with intention and attention.
great interview.I don't have any letters in front of my name yet feel qualified to comment that mr.t has grasped the essence of G work and explained as well as possible in time allowed.
Good day, interestingly enough I was in a used book store and I found a gurdjieff book and found one of those white cards that said if your interested in guedjieff please send your name and number to said address. After that I listened to your interview and you mentioned the white card. Thanks for your talk sir.
I think in some ways its not so difficult to understand: humans are here to complete the ray of creation (develop atmosphere on moon) and do so by developing 3 new bodies, astral, mental and causal (to do with aligning the chakras). It’s a bit difficult to do this when energy is taken up with lower ego and neuroses etc. hence the work.
Great interview! I was interested in Gurdjieff many years ago before UA-cam and the accessibility of his work. I always liked his ideas, but never liked the Gurdjieffians. One group wanted me to help replace their roof (in the name of “conscious work”) and another one wanted me to contribute a lot of money (are you more interested in wisdom or money?). At that point I decided the Gurdjieffians weren’t for me.
Timothy MacDonnell Sorry to hear about your experience. If you are involved in a genuine group from the original root you may be asked to help with work that will repair or improve buildings used for retreats etc. Also carpentry, cooking, gardening, sewing etc. Just as you might in a monastery. Working physically is one of the pillars of the self observation techniques. The monthly contributions are minimal and relevant to your income. The retreats are in general a fraction of what you would pay on an average Vipassana or Yoga retreat.
And from Heraclitus. Who often spoke of the same “sleep” and who said: “The logos of the soul is increasing itself”! A few words, a short sentence; but a signification monumental and exquisite beyond words.
Insect, Lizard, Mammal, Human Thalamus, Amygdala, Cortex, Pre Frontal Cortex Each stage is was Leap of faith taken by biology Everything in life is spectrum of experience, Every Spectrum has 2 directions of flow So the question you have to ask yourself is do you know how to reverse the Flow of your brain whenever you want ?
Charles Tart has expressed regret that he will not be around to see the fruition of the current revolution in the mind sciences. It sucks because he has done more than almost any other one person to get us to the place today where, for instance, you are finally allowed to use the term 'enlightenment' in a scientific paper without worrying about your job.
Kim: It would benefit no one. For one thing people as a whole just don't give a shit. Secondly it takes specific work to raise one's level of understanding, and without that work and corresponding level it remains beyond those who might "benefit." :-)
Not the ones taking advantage of the sleep of others. All our economy is based on greed, insecurities, confusion, conflict and separation. Between others probably.
An undeveloped Soul being "Food for the Moon", came from Plutarch's teaching that when we die our Soul goes to the Moon & our Spirit to the Sun & that when we reincarnate the process is reversed.
There’s a difference between a general practitioner and a surgeon... both are important and necessary for different reasons. Some people need to be cut into while others need only a prescription and advice.
I’m a regular visitor to this channel. And love it. However his dismissal of Gurdjieff’s saying “food for the moon” (and saying he’s “good with words”) put me off completely. It’s not a central concept but part of the exquisite arras of his teaching. Like with Heraclitus (whose words will ring forever in the ears and minds of those searching the depths)…….Gurdjieff’s use of words is often connotative, and not denotative. If we read such words and phrases as poetry, we may be able (eventually) to understand the “exact conception of the author” as Emily Dickinson put it. As an example take a look at the poem “A Rabbit as King of the Ghosts” for a similar use of the word “moon”. Yes the poem seems “gibberish”, on the surface, but Wallace was one of the deepest thinkers of the last century (and one of it’s finest and most original poets). If you dig deep there’s treasure in that field.
"more aware" does not even begin to question the notion of the individual self, the belief in which is the root problem . The sense of self is a real experience but the investigation suggests that perhaps it can be discovered to be a problematic misinterpretation which when accepted causes undue discomfort for oneself and others. ie: the root of suffering. Furthermore if one truly wishes to achieve the ultimate understanding, which is the birthright of every human, and the mature fruition of possibility, then a deeper investigation of the "self" is required. Nothing short of the "death" of the personal actor will suffice. And then one can go back, so to speak, to carrying on with what would appear to be a normal life. "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is".
"Self" seems to be a matter of brain programming/function. Once a toddler starts using the utterance "I" in an appropriate way, the notion/experience of self is established in them. Atma Vicara turns attention back to the experience of being a "center of experience" in an attempt to break through the illusion of ego. "I" is our biggest lie and the most destructive one at that.
_"Emphasis is on ... developing this quicker, deeper awareness in actual life situations."_ Which is exactly what most Osho centers also do (yes, gasp, _that_ Osho). Encounter therapy with other living humans, vulnerable, raw, afraid and empowered through sharing. Thanks for the wonderful discussion!
Osho centers did a great deal of spying in gurdjieff groups, taking with them, bits and pieces, and adding it to whatever Osho was doing. They even do the movements, but theirs is a bits and pieces.
people keep trying to 'get' gurdieff/ ouspensky , but there is nothing to 'get' .... there are no words to describe the 'way'.. 'it' must be experienced, which than involves great transformation..... " a shift of the assemblage point " ...(as stated by don juan) ouspensky wrote a great childrens book , 'the strange life of ivan osokin ' for those 'youngins' startin' out on the 4th way ....
Wonderful Fabulous Delightful Blissful Amazing 😉 Experience to See the Beautiful Dedication of Efforts in Sharing Personal Understanding to so many ordinary 1s
Most of these "Movements" are usually quite interesting and have important lessons that can be learned from, but personally, I wouldn't join any of them, and that includes religions. It all begins with Mindfulness, and self-awareness. One can practice all kinds of self-help solo spiritual disciplines, but it's only in "bouncing" off others, family members, friends, and even strangers, and how you treat them and the environment you live in, that reflections are seen and life-lessons gleaned.
It's important to understand, that there were two different types of Gurdjieff teachings, the first early phase being that outlined in Ouspenski's "In Search of the Miraculous", & the later phase being that in Gurdjieff's own series "All & Everything", comprising of three books
I finally understand how to read beezlebubs tale to his grandson read Maurice Nicholls psychological commentary and PD ouspenskys books on the 4th way and then read all or everything hit a homie up if yuh tryna understand the gurujis gurdjieffs literature my dude/et
The 4th way came from Fabre D'Olivet, as do the 3 centers, D'Olivet's are the intellectual center, the axial center (of the passions) & the instinctive center
In dreams (while sleeping) all the characters are aspects of our self. When analysed they teach us whats going on. In the waking state it's the same, a dream...we observe everything including the person we think we are. The observer is beyond everything....we are it.
We tend to reinterpret texts anyway. Once an author has died his texts die, and only the living own them. And with that transference of ownership a necessary change will happen. So it doesn't really matter that he made the texts easy to read or not.
From the Netherland a big thank you guys! It makes it more understandable, I'm just getting into Mr Gurdjief s teachings. Anyone any tips of where to begin, reading or more stuff on you tube?
Maybe you have already made your way into the work and some of the literature. If not, In Search of the Miraculous(Fragments of an Unknown Teaching) by Ouspensky; Toward Awakening by Jean Vaysse; and The Reality of Being by Jeanne de Salzmann. And Gurdjieff’s own writings, beginning with All and Everything (Beelzebub’s Tales). I wish you well.
What Charles is looking for is Leo. He started the Emin (Organisation and spiritual methods) in the early 70's. Look no further. What Charles is talking about to try and develop awareness, is detection. Leo places huge importance on the art of detection. Apart from awareness and activating other centres, it can connect you to very special essences and understandings.
Most people who are trying to understand Gurdjieff, including myself, ignore what the man himself said : 1. Read Baalzeebub’s tales three times : one time as you would read any book, the second time - read the book aloud and in the third reading, really reflect on what one is reading. 2. Nothing can be achieved on ones’ own - a group of people is essential.
This is very interesting. I would really like for you to interview the engineer from Google who claims their AI is sentient. It certainly pertains to the subject of consciousness.. if you haven’t listened to or read the interview he conducted with the AI program, Lambda, you really should. Thank you for your work.
3:53 "Isn't that Romantic", that's exactly what it was, that aspect of the Romantic philosophy known as Orientalism, which he copied from Blavatsky's far eastern, but made his middle eastern, & in doing so was using the principle of misdirection, as most of his sources were Neo-platonic, which includes Pythagoras (Law of 3, Law of 7,, Intentional Suffering, Conscious Labour, Ray of Creation, Proto-enneagram) Plato (Four States of Consciousness including Self-remembering, 3 Storied Factory, Many "I's"), & Stoicism (Non-identification, Control of Negative Emotions, Scale).
Hi new thinking allowed, is there anyway you could upload the full interview you did with Robert Anton Wilson of the previous series ? I've looked on Thinking Allowed TV and is only a small clip. Cheers.
I spent time with a college professor who was a student of jg bennett's and they definitely weren't calling him, "Goor-jeef." they called him "Goor-jeff." very annoying to hear his name mispronounced on something like this.
First I would like to say that Mr. Mishlove, you are so handsome!! After listening to this I am so glad I was never influenced by these older teachers. I was studying Metaphysics since I was 10 years old living as a welfare brat in a slum tenement housing. I learned early on to not be influenced by Indirect Inspiration of others but to get my own Direct Inspiration. As a result my consciousness expanded and I have had adventures in consciousness where I learned on other levels. We are higher beings who have on purpose allowed ourselves to experience as Limited Beings for a time while awake in 3D so we can experience the contrasts of this time space reality and to learn to master this reality by co-creation. Your experiences is what expands the Universe. So the idea that we are supposed to become awake is silly nonsense to me. Every time you are asleep in your bed while your body is recharging you do wake up to the real reality. You think your consciousness is continuous but there are little breaks in between where you are elsewhere. You are Multidimensional Beings existing in many other realities all at the same time. It is like you are playing hide and seek with yourself. As a Hypnotist I can tell you how the mind works in about 5 minutes that will make sense to you. Imagination is the real Holy Grail! You really do create your own reality. There is no meaning to life except what you give it. I see too many people going into the esoteric and intellectual, who have not yet learned how to build their own character first and master their own selves. The first question they ask you when you die is: "How well did you love?" JanieMartinSings
The book is about that you do what ever you want. Because the world is a harsh place to live. And it's him speaking to his seed in his balls. And go out into the world be love give love and make love. And get it how ever you want.
Again man as a machine might well have been influenced by Plato's analogy of man as a chariot, horses & driver, but Descartes had an interest in automaton & had a view that all animal & human Bodies were merely animated machines,, then Julien Offray de La Mettrie, wrote “Man a Machine” in 1747, extending Descartes Ideas. Later Anton Mesmer embraced the idea to make his Mesmerism more acceptable to Science, then William Paley wrote “Natural Theology” in 1803. stating that "When you look at a watch or any other complex machine, you know that it must have been made by an intelligent creature. Animals & plants also show the tell-tale signs of design, they are like machines, composed of exquisitely interlocking parts that all interact to help the organism survive." Then A.W. Schlege the Romantic philosopher, made the distinction between Romantic & Classic as between Organic & Mechanical, of great importance to other thinkers, notably Coleridge.
States of consciousness that are often misunderstood can be scientifically linked by talking to brain waves. Let's leave the aliens or other crap like that aside as often happens when a teaching is misunderstood. In fact, teaching is often not acquired rationally, but by experience.
I find it hard to understand how someone could be so into some one and not know the exact year that the person passed away. Gurdjieff passed away Oct 29 , 1949 not 1940. If Mr Tart makes such minor mistakes imagine what he has done with the rest of the Gurdjieff stuff.
Interesting. Dr. Tart simply said he died in the 1940s. He does not give an exact year. We cannot know if he knows the exact date or not. So dates are important to you, but listening?
@@leroycarr9 Well the dates are up there... Apparently Jeffrey Mislove put them up there in the beginning of the video .It just seems that if you are really interested, want to know everything about a spiritual teacher you might want to know all the details of their lives, all the details of what their teaching and practices actually are and then get to know those practices in detail by practicing them and then evaluating them from personal direct experience.Taft says the last thing Gurdjieff wanted is people getting caught up in his personality haha. Guess what? Ouspenksy was sick of his crap and finally connected up with Swami Shantananda Saraswati student of Swami Brahmanda Saraswati , the same Shankaracharya teacher of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Self Observation as in non critical self judgemental self observation is really cool.The teachings are every where now including Anthony DeMello "Awareness" Eckhart Tolle and so many insight meditation teachers etc etc .The self rememberig practice I can't say I got any more from that other than it might invoke an actual mindfulness practice at best. Taft has less than a 6th grade drop's understanding of Buddhism all though his views on Samsara being something you need to get out of he giggling scoffs at and at same time say's waking up is important essential... all this stuff parallesl all the ideas for the need to wake up.I don't know if he actually did the obligatories.For me they dont even compare or come close to some basic chi kung tai chi movements.There's a lot about gurdjieff ideas that are valuable. Taft mentions the fidgeting,That's good.You can read about that in "Life is real, Only when I am" where Gurdjieff refers to some guy as a Booby because he is always fidgeting around.Anyway Tafts assesement of Gurdjieff is probably about as good as any can get, I mean it's fair. Splitting ones attention if you get something from,that good for you.I personally found it useless.
Gurdjieff first taught the enneagram in 1916 but the book by S. Karppe, that was mentioned in a footnote in "Search" was published in 1866, also the tetragram from "Isis Unveiled", was a likely source
In fact I shall present also here one other interpretation of the bird scene from Mr. B movie 🎥... at that scene please WHAT DOES the fictional Mr. Gurdjieff shouts out loud ....???
Dr. Tart speaks of the three centers of the individual; the intellectual, emotional, and the moving (I call it the physical). Far too little attention is given to the emotional center, as it is the emotional center more than any other that affects and drives the behavior of each and every individual. In my opinion, lacking in the study of Man the Machine, is an understanding of the primary human emotions, of which there are only five inborn and instinctive emotions or primary human emotions. I'm not aware that Gurdjieff, nor any of his proponents spoke of the human emotions in a comprehensive manner. I urge the viewer to of this video to read my book, "Modern-Day Liberalism: Exploring the Psychological Foundations of the Disorder", available on Amazon. An exposition of the (five) primary human emotions forms the underpinning of my book-all laid out clearly in an understandable manner.
The 1950 edition is a more refined version and is preferred by most followers. The first edition has been revised in the past few years, but is crude in many respects compared to the latter.
It’s very interesting that sel-observation has become mainstream in psychological science under the idea of ‘mindfulness’ and its somatic importance in self sensing. Also ‘woke’ culture and the weirdly political ‘anti-woke’ brigade. In many ways Gurdjieffen methodologies have become mainstream. Gurdjieff appealed to my intellect. But it was Swedenborg some to my heart.
I agree - I don't ever like using my own 'cross'-ness on essentially innocent people. Gurdjieff for me was certainly genuine, and a genuine teacher, but tended to express negative emotions -just to test people? That is the understanding! I always remember how Krishnamurti said that a truly awake person who has one 'beyond the ind', is WHOLLY Good, has total harmony between the parts of his/her nature, so there is no way they could abuse others, though I am not accusing G of doing this. (God help us from the 'other krishnamurti!)
yes, but his followers tend to express their negative-emotions more readily (in my experience). I would say that (what you've put,) would be Gurdjieff's general outlook. But he was also more 'loose' in bis speech one time he said when you are conscious you will know what to love, what to hate'... And how 'anger (after awakening) can become genuine force'. Alcohol and cigarettes were also consumed a lot by this school I was in, as the man did... not a criticism just an observation
I wouldn't say any of us would like to call ourselves 'followers'. Just that this man might help us all be free... Gurdjieff was a one-off - like a cross between a genuine 'Truth-seeker', purely-so, the real deal... and a kind of businessman who was very clever with human psychology... (that's a bit of a rubbish 'painting' but you may know what I mean)
In that 'School', group, though was one Rina Hands, an initial surviving 'disciple' of him. She was really lovely and I get on with her very well, quite a character, but she was very old when I knew her
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Theremis a guy in mexico called Martin Aparicio teaching 4th way
When I lived in Toronto, in the late 70s to early 90s, I was engaged in a Salzmann/Gurdjieff group for over 20 years and from the start we were once a week - usually on Sundays early morning - invited to take part of group meditation called 'sitting'. Our task was to be grounded in our physical body, and the instructor sat in front of the group describing verbally how to sense our planetary body - starting from the top of one's head to the toes - we could see firsthand how difficult it was to let go of our issues from the past, from present worries or endeavours, and future plans - from our own identifications and imaginary and neurotic inner world - so most of the time at the beginning - for months in a row - it was such a task to be fully grounded in our body - without being in our thoughts or getting sleepy. Once a week - on weekdays - we had a group meeting and also beforehand we did a 'sitting'. We did sittings at home as well - but it took sometimes years to really develop a 'will' to do it freely - sittings were as important as the movements (or group exercises), which were also taught once a week on weekdays. It was very demanding and real. We were asked to work - not in theory - but to practice the work physically, emotionally and mentally. We were taught a practical method to distinguish between feelings, negative and proper emotions, sensing and thinking. This is such an intimate 'work on oneself' that it is almost impossible to say anything...unless one does it because the benefits are different from one person to another. The work for me was fundamental, it allows the possibility of individuality and presence to oneself and to the collective. One can become his or her own light and refuge. First, become a good-householder...then seek. No bullshit. No empty words. No imaginary love but real compassion. Not easy to work.
The "trick" is to notice the next time this perception reappears -- that means your awareness returned to the observing I you were in at the time. You can call it your "observing I". When in that I, do some inner exercises to try to extend how much time you can spend in that state. To help it gain a bit more influence.
The interesting thing for me was that when I return to that I, most of the time I remembered where I was the last time it happened. Each I seems to have its own memories tied to it. You can also (without getting fooled or caught up by imagination) see if you can remember what happened between the last time and this time. Or perhaps, what were you thinking, feeling and how were you behaving just before you woke up? It may give you glimpses of other I's and what they are busy with.
Eventually when that "observing I" is much stronger, it can be called a steward. (like a shepherd?) If you self-remember more often, you will notice the other I's and perhaps one day you can write them all down on a sheet of paper to see what you have to work with.
Thank you for the great interview! I grew up in the city of Tbilisi, where Gurdjieff lived and worked. His mother was a Georgian noblewoman, as he said.I learned about his ideas early on and started thinking about traveling to the east, but a little later I got a book by Carl Jung. I realized that I had found what I was looking for and went to Germany.
I almost ended up in a psychiatric hospital whilst reading In Search Of The Miraculous almost 20 years ago.... Gurjieff was a genius..
Because of reading it, or reading it helped?
why?
@@vecv7502 because nobody likes to admit that you are a puppet a machine or alchemist, either way is considered crazy far beyond ordinary existence … being a Neurofeedback therapist a behavioralist, I have to say he is absolutely right
Ouspensky wrote this book not G and guess what O never was willing to acknowledge source of system nor admit that the interlocutor in book was an actual person. Some senior people in his London group knew but kept it quiet
@@donnasherwood283Lol what. You know that this books was supposed to be called 'Fragments of an Unknown Teaching' because the books only contained a fragment of Gurdjieff's teachings.
Another great discussion. Thank you.
It was so heart warming to see this video. About 20 years ago when I was in college both these men had such a tremendous impact on me. The openness, the intelligence, and the good will of these men is so damn rare nowadays. It can't be said enough that the world needs and lacks people like this. Nice to see how healthy and sharp both Charlie and Jeffrey still are. Charlie with his slow and honest cadence and Jefferey with his cheerful and thoughtful questioning and topped by that idiosyncratic smile. Bless you guys for still doing what you do. This video should get a billion hits in my opinion. I remember once meeting Charlie at a consciousness conference when I was young and full of meditative zeal and I was asking him all these questions to find out how I could meditate more perfectly and he turned and told me "Why don't you try meditating imperfectly." Those words right there hit me like a brick and was exactly what I needed at the time. Since then my meditation practice has grown a lot though I'm still on the infinite path of learning but I owe Charlie so much. Jefferey also was the first to intelligently interview some of the greatest spiritual minds of our century and introduced me to the works of so many people. Thank you both from the bottom of my heart for what you've done. May your work live forever and both continue to live lives of peace, positive influence, and equanimity.
8N
.kindalike,
Fruits of action without action. Accept Christ!
Thanks, Les. That was lovely to read.
Excellent talk on Gurdjieff! Ouspensky, his disciple, makes the method much more accessible in his work "The 4th Way"
Charles brought some of the critical aspects of Gurdjieff, difficult to deliver them so concisely. Thank you.
Dr. Tart, while describing Gurdjieff's perspective, is almost exactly describing the Tibetan Buddhist philosophy regarding dream and sleep. It's becoming awake, waking up from our waking dream. It may not be precisely so, but it is quite close.
*_In A Course In Miracles, the Author informs the student that he is not actually Awakening. No, he has A Dream of Awakening. For, as The Ra Material says, we are still in 3rd density -- the place of illusion, of dreams; where we are forged in the fire. Plato's Cave comes to mind. ACIM says there is only one dream worth having: the dream of Awakening. It's the one dream that leads to something Else. Because it points the way Out of sorrow. But it is still a dream._*
Gurdjieff claimed he spent time in Tibet.
See, this is why I like older people mostly more than my own generation. This is important, your average person staring at their phone will never learn anything like this and will never hear of Gurdjieff and others...We really are a species with amnesia as Graham Hancock says...I love this show, even the older ones, please try and get Graham Hancock on the show, that would be brilliant.
Jim O'Ryan. Yes, I’ve been thinking he is a perfect candidate for an interview as well!
Again .... THANK YOU, THANK YOU to the both if you for this insightful and most informative interview - out of all the minutes in my day ... the 27 or so minutes spent listening to your interviews, Jeffery, are always well spent and so worth it !
I was doing some Gurdjieff mental exercises back in my 20s, which I totally forgot now, and they would seem to be shifting my consciousness in ways I could almost grasp and then, about a week into the exercises, sitting on a train commuting to work, as I looked out the window at the trees, I suddenly felt a profound shift in my consciousness which is difficult to explain just as he says around 10.45 - 11 minutes in this video. Somehow, I momentarily felt gigantic as if I was looking at earth from outer space, but the sensation didn't really match what I was seeing through my eyes since nothing visually had changed, and that discrepancy is what made the awareness slip away as quickly as it came. I immediately tried to bring it back, tried to see the trees the same way again, but couldn't quite grasp what it was exactly I'd seen since it did not quite seem any different but my sense of awareness seemed to be coming from further away. I had a sense of omniscience. It was amazing feeling and weird enough that it shocked me immediately back into ordinary awareness wondering what had happened and trying to get back to the "giant omniscient" awareness. But, of course, the more you try to get into a meditative state that slipped away the harder it is and so, too, it was with this fleeting awareness.
So very profound & Enriching!!!👌🙏
@Munshi Mattson interesting timing in your response! On my walk yesterday, I was sort of re-experiencing something that happened not too long before the experience on the train. A similar experience that had to do with visual perception as well but I don't want to try to explain. I remember with the first experience I had been reading PD Ouspensky's "Tertium Organum" which caused me to have interest in Gurdjieff and with the train experience you described as "self-remembering," I was reading Gurdjieff Fourth Way instructions I had downloaded from the internet. After reading your comment, I Googled "Gurdjieff how to self remember" and found what I believe is the same website I downloaded those instructions from 23 years ago. There is a PDF there called "self-remembering.pdf" and the instructions seem to be describing the sort of thought process I was naturally following when I had that first experience.
That first experience seemed like I was about to have a big breakthrough in awareness and the train incident came after. The first experience was a prolonged moment of observation and analyzing the nature of perception. It seemed like the light that bounced off objects and entered my eyes was actually the thing that connects everything together in a way that is beyond normal understanding. I can't explain it, but it seems like I stumbled on the self-remembering technique by accident (unless perhaps Ouspensky mentioned something about it in Tertium Organum; at this point I don't remember).
@Munshi Mattson I actually haven't done a damn thing with Gurdjieff's system since a few years after that when I read all kinds of silly nonsense about humans and the earth being food for the moon, which G said was supposedly a baby planet. :) G did some amazing things in his life, but I don't think his system was complete and a lot of it is bs.
Anyway, I haven't really been studying alone. Ouspensky and Gurdjieff was sort of the first thing that affected my mind just by reading about it, but I went on to study and receive various teachings. I've had plenty of experiences over the years, but I don't get hung up on any of them.
If I have experienced any glimpse at enlightenment, it's not what I would call enlightenment, so either people exaggerate what enlightenment is or I haven't had much of a glimpse at all, despite those various experiences. So, I don't think there's much danger of my false personality checkmating itself considering it's been doing that since the day I was born, anyway. I am pretty convinced of the unreality of things, but it seems real to me, despite what I believe in theory. I don't expect to break the illusion in this lifetime. Honestly, I've given up.
I just remember stuff occasionally and think, "oh yeah, it would be nice to give that another shot," but after 20-some years doing different practices, I'm just not that interested in putting so much time into any kind of practices or mental training, not even non-meditation. About the only thing I am interested these days is dream work (lucid dreaming, dream yoga). Because I can do it while I sleep.
That is so neat. Thank you!
sleep... the breakfast-of-champions~ haha
Wow, I feel so much better now -- if the brilliant Dr. Tart had trouble "getting" Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, then I don't feel quite so inadequate ... I remember years ago trying to tackle the books of both these men, finding them fascinating, but also extremely vexing and frustrating because just when you think you are getting a handle on what they are talking about, you get lost in a dense set of thorny concepts ... but it's strange, because there is a weird sort of intuitive feeling that you are learning something new somewhere in the "back of your brain" -- anyway -- many thanks for this excellent interview!!
People call it the 4th way, but it has always been called The Work, by those who truly partake in the lineage of it, where the practice lives in those who correctly received it. It's not about "getting it", that's not the point. Unless getting it are the stripes of receiving the taste of what it means to truly see your state, as it is. The ideas, as you try, they grow alone side it. If one is truly to understand it only with their intellect, depending on their intellect, it will more or less just go to serve your ideas about yourself, it will only become fodder for your sleep, the mechanical part of your intellect, which greatly is the majority of our function, will just make it, its own. So it will help you to sleep. The idea is that the concepts would attract you to the real possibility of being assisted into the practice, which opens up much more than just the formatory part of your mind. That perhaps as you work, something can begin to pass through all of that falsity, come to that part of you that is more lawful to your origination in existence.
You might also find it worth your while to investigate the works of Carlos Castaneda. His work is very complimentary to that of Gurdjieff. Sometimes it can be very helpful to have such esoteric ideas (in numerous cases virtually identical ideas) explained from a different yet resonate point of view.
One needs to be in the work . Otherwise its waste of time
great advice , great comment ....
even if you don't understand the book, you are making it about your ego. I think you have mixed up your inadequate quality with your self. Your self cannot be given a label. That is intellectual development in Gurdjieffian sense.
superb elucidation laced with a great sense of humour...many thanks for the upload.
Many decades ago, an English Banker, Mr. Tiarks, told me the following story:
He had visited Gurdjieff personally in Paris. Leaving, Gurdieff went with him to
the entrance-door of the building, where his car was parked in front. Like by magic, the
door of his empty car did open by ITSELF, to let him in ...
Gurdjieff was among one of the first people to suggest that the erosion of the Sphinx was caused by water weathering. He served as an inspiration to (the late John Anthony West) to further pursue this avenue of evidence with Dr. Robert Shoch. Again, powerful!
He also said the stars are made of ice. He also said you can't learn from dead teachers. He also said don't join a Gurdjieff group after I'm dead.
The 3 Brained Beings originated with Plato's analogy of Man as a Chariot (Flesh) draw by horses (Emotions) with a driver (intelligence), but in the early Tarot versions without reins, so Man in his normal state has no control over his emotions.
Yet another splendid interview: REAL food for, not just thought, but also application and observation.
Thank you for this series.
George Ivanovich Gurdjieff is usually described as a mystic...but above all he was a researcher of very great ability and insight...with his research question being the purpose of human life on this good planet and as part of this undertaking to understand objectively how human beings actually function...Beezelbub's Tales to his Grandson...is the main result of his research...an epic and challenging work...made perhaps more readable by Gurdjieff's own highly developed sense of humour...he wrote this book in such a way that it can only be read with a considerable effort of attention...and using a method called 'scatter'...where pieces of information of very great value are buried so to speak...deep...in writings which at times seem somewhat unusual...
I have a neuroscientist friend, who believes that, not only is free will an illusion, but so is consciousness. I trend to think of the "I" as like a car with passengers all taking turns to be the driver. Often the 'I's fight to drive as the car moves.
Even if the 'system' failed, Gurdjieff left a valuable legacy that maybe can be refined with our new knowledge of the brain and the Universe.
He did the best he could at the time and should always be remembered and respected for that.
If consciousness is an illusion, then we can feel free to believe that your neuroscientist friend knows nothing and we can ignore anything he says. It is impossible to process any thought or theory, including all scientific theories, without consciousness.
Perhaps consciousness seemed to your friend to be an illusion because consciousness of his consciousness eluded him. And that would in turn have disabled him from being conscious of free will. The reason I suggest this is because consciousness is exactly what enables free will.
If we are, as Gurdjieff taught, asleep, or going about life in a state of "waking sleep," then we are going about life in a very mechanical manner. Our machine-like habits and reactions to stimuli dominate all of our actions and virtually nothing we do is an act of free will, because while living (existing) in such a low level of consciousness our mechanicalness prevents us from acting freely. Anyone stuck at this low level of existence will be unable to see, feel, think or act outside of their own limitations.
If we begin to wake up, we begin to become more conscious and less mechanical. As we become less mechanical, we become less trapped by the limitations of our habits and reactions. This frees us to begin making a few choices that are not subject to long-practiced habits and reactive behavior. It is the injection of consciousness into the mechanicality of the Universe that opens the way for freedom of choice.
As Gurdjieff explained, there are different orders of laws that rule what can happen in the Universe. In the complex hierarchy of the Universe that G described, here on Earth we live under many orders of laws that rule the mechanicality of what is possible. But sometimes things happen that seem to defy this mechanicality. Such things surprise us and we may be inclined to attribute them to magical or miraculous or supernatural causes or forces. Yet, everything happens according to the Natural Laws of the Universe, except not everything is governed by the same level or order of the laws of the Universe. Any person who is more conscious (less asleep) may sometimes be able to exercise their free will and do things that to others will seem magical or miraculous, while to the person doing them these things will seem quite ordinary and quite subject to Natural Laws, albeit at a higher level or order of laws.
If seemingly miraculous or magical or supernatural things seem to happen, they are still Natural, but they are Natural to some higher order of Natural Law. And, as a person becomes more conscious, they will be able to sometimes rise above the limitations of the lower orders of Natural Law that govern what sleeping people are capable of knowing and understanding and "doing" in their mechanical existence. In such an awakened station in life, they will be able to exercise some degree of free will, making conscious choices and actually be able to "do" with intention and attention.
great interview.I don't have any letters in front of my name yet feel qualified to comment that mr.t has grasped the essence of G work and explained as well as possible in time allowed.
The more I see of this channel the more I appreciate it. :)
It' literally or he IE , Dr Mishlove will literally change an alter your Consiousness, in a profound & insightful way!
Can we just acknowledge that this man wore his Brooks with his interview suit?
Good day, interestingly enough I was in a used book store and I found a gurdjieff book and found one of those white cards that said if your interested in guedjieff please send your name and number to said address. After that I listened to your interview and you mentioned the white card. Thanks for your talk sir.
Psi scientic studies has just arrived through the post thanks charley!
Thank you.
I had such an experience walking up 4 flights of stairs feeling more "present" than I ever had before or since!
Great interview!!
Great chat
Thank You Jeffrey, another timeless interview, I would very much be interested to hear your thoughts on the Teachings and methods of Vernon Howard.
I think in some ways its not so difficult to understand: humans are here to complete the ray of creation (develop atmosphere on moon) and do so by developing 3 new bodies, astral, mental and causal (to do with aligning the chakras). It’s a bit difficult to do this when energy is taken up with lower ego and neuroses etc. hence the work.
Indeed #Gratitude #toujours
great interview. thank you!
Thanks to both of you and very helpful.
Dv&lm bring me here 🔥🔥
Mathew Music YESS!!! Jajajaja
Great interview! I was interested in Gurdjieff many years ago before UA-cam and the accessibility of his work. I always liked his ideas, but never liked the Gurdjieffians. One group wanted me to help replace their roof (in the name of “conscious work”) and another one wanted me to contribute a lot of money (are you more interested in wisdom or money?). At that point I decided the Gurdjieffians weren’t for me.
Timothy MacDonnell
Sorry to hear about your experience. If you are involved in a genuine group from the original root you may be asked to help with work that will repair or improve buildings used for retreats etc. Also carpentry, cooking, gardening, sewing etc. Just as you might in a monastery. Working physically is one of the pillars of the self observation techniques. The monthly contributions are minimal and relevant to your income. The retreats are in general a fraction of what you would pay on an average Vipassana or Yoga retreat.
Gurdjieff's four states of consciousness including the third state self-remembering comes from I believe Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
anamnesis
And from Heraclitus. Who often spoke of the same “sleep” and who said: “The logos of the soul is increasing itself”! A few words, a short sentence; but a signification monumental and exquisite beyond words.
Insect, Lizard, Mammal, Human
Thalamus, Amygdala, Cortex, Pre Frontal Cortex
Each stage is was Leap of faith taken by biology
Everything in life is spectrum of experience,
Every Spectrum has 2 directions of flow
So the question you have to ask yourself is do you know how to reverse the Flow of your brain whenever you want ?
Charles Tart has expressed regret that he will not be around to see the fruition of the current revolution in the mind sciences. It sucks because he has done more than almost any other one person to get us to the place today where, for instance, you are finally allowed to use the term 'enlightenment' in a scientific paper without worrying about your job.
Good talk thank you❤
Ii's a pity that more money is't put into this this form of scientific subject; it would benefit everyone!
Kim: It would benefit no one. For one thing people as a whole just don't give a shit. Secondly it takes specific work to raise one's level of understanding, and without that work and corresponding level it remains beyond those who might "benefit." :-)
Not the ones taking advantage of the sleep of others. All our economy is based on greed, insecurities, confusion, conflict and separation. Between others probably.
An undeveloped Soul being "Food for the Moon", came from Plutarch's teaching that when we die our Soul goes to the Moon & our Spirit to the Sun & that when we reincarnate the process is reversed.
Best interviewer ever 🤟🏾
There’s a difference between a general practitioner and a surgeon... both are important and necessary for different reasons. Some people need to be cut into while others need only a prescription and advice.
I’m a regular visitor to this channel. And love it. However his dismissal of Gurdjieff’s saying “food for the moon” (and saying he’s “good with words”) put me off completely. It’s not a central concept but part of the exquisite arras of his teaching. Like with Heraclitus (whose words will ring forever in the ears and minds of those searching the depths)…….Gurdjieff’s use of words is often connotative, and not denotative. If we read such words and phrases as poetry, we may be able (eventually) to understand the “exact conception of the author” as Emily Dickinson put it. As an example take a look at the poem “A Rabbit as King of the Ghosts” for a similar use of the word “moon”. Yes the poem seems “gibberish”, on the surface, but Wallace was one of the deepest thinkers of the last century (and one of it’s finest and most original poets). If you dig deep there’s treasure in that field.
What an honest man
Thanks!
BRAVO 🤑 KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK 🤔 LOVE THIS GUYS INTELLECT 😂
This guy is right on.
"more aware" does not even begin to question the notion of the individual self, the belief in which is the root problem . The sense of self is a real experience but the investigation suggests that perhaps it can be discovered to be a problematic misinterpretation which when accepted causes undue discomfort for oneself and others. ie: the root of suffering. Furthermore if one truly wishes to achieve the ultimate understanding, which is the birthright of every human, and the mature fruition of possibility, then a deeper investigation of the "self" is required. Nothing short of the "death" of the personal actor will suffice. And then one can go back, so to speak, to carrying on with what would appear to be a normal life. "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is".
"Self" seems to be a matter of brain programming/function. Once a toddler starts using the utterance "I" in an appropriate way, the notion/experience of self is established in them. Atma Vicara turns attention back to the experience of being a "center of experience" in an attempt to break through the illusion of ego. "I" is our biggest lie and the most destructive one at that.
_"Emphasis is on ... developing this quicker, deeper awareness in actual life situations."_
Which is exactly what most Osho centers also do (yes, gasp, _that_ Osho). Encounter therapy with other living humans, vulnerable, raw, afraid and empowered through sharing.
Thanks for the wonderful discussion!
Osho centers did a great deal of spying in gurdjieff groups, taking with them, bits and pieces, and adding it to whatever Osho was doing. They even do the movements, but theirs is a bits and pieces.
@fynes leigh You're probably right, I saw many places where he was contradicting himself in the midst of gems but who am I to say? My guts say beware.
people keep trying to 'get' gurdieff/ ouspensky ,
but there is nothing to 'get' ....
there are no words to describe the 'way'..
'it' must be experienced,
which than involves great transformation.....
" a shift of the assemblage point " ...(as stated by don juan)
ouspensky wrote a great childrens book ,
'the strange life of ivan osokin '
for those 'youngins' startin' out on the 4th way ....
agree
Wonderful Fabulous Delightful Blissful Amazing 😉 Experience to See the Beautiful Dedication of Efforts in Sharing Personal Understanding to so many ordinary 1s
Most of these "Movements" are usually quite interesting and have important lessons that can be learned from, but personally, I wouldn't join any of them, and that includes religions. It all begins with Mindfulness, and self-awareness. One can practice all kinds of self-help solo spiritual disciplines, but it's only in "bouncing" off others, family members, friends, and even strangers, and how you treat them and the environment you live in, that reflections are seen and life-lessons gleaned.
Paddy, you may be interested in the critiques of Theosophy by Gurdjieff,...He also had critiques of Buddhism and how these practices have "devolved".
25.35 CTT shares a valuable insight into self observation.
It's important to understand, that there were two different types of Gurdjieff teachings, the first early phase being that outlined in Ouspenski's "In Search of the Miraculous", & the later phase being that in Gurdjieff's own series "All & Everything", comprising of three books
Are both equally valid, or no? I am currently reading Ouspensky's 'In Search of the Miraculous'
@@andeeanko7079 the second will be better understood if you understand the first!
These works are complementary. Add to these Toward Awakening by Jean Vaysse and The Reality of Being by Jeanne de Salzmann.
I finally understand how to read beezlebubs tale to his grandson read Maurice Nicholls psychological commentary and PD ouspenskys books on the 4th way and then read all or everything hit a homie up if yuh tryna understand the gurujis gurdjieffs literature my dude/et
I'm hitting you up homeboy, peep me on game! Help! I've always had a hard time understanding it.
@@jamarhatton Darn I forgot it's been so long bro I suggest reading the book mindful self discipline and doing a lot of introspection
@@edduardozamboga4082 thank you.
The 4th way came from Fabre D'Olivet, as do the 3 centers, D'Olivet's are the intellectual center, the axial center (of the passions) & the instinctive center
In dreams (while sleeping) all the characters are aspects of our self. When analysed they teach us whats going on. In the waking state it's the same, a dream...we observe everything including the person we think we are. The observer is beyond everything....we are it.
Where could I get hold of a Thinking Allowed badge?
www.newthinkingallowed.org/galleries/specialty-items/product-5/
DIMITRI VEGAS AND LIKE MIKE
Self-remembering = being aware of being aware.
We are "Three Brained Beings"..
This was said countless times in Beelzebub's Tales...
Beelzebub!👌🙏
Give Thanks
We tend to reinterpret texts anyway. Once an author has died his texts die, and only the living own them. And with that transference of ownership a necessary change will happen. So it doesn't really matter that he made the texts easy to read or not.
From the Netherland a big thank you guys! It makes it more understandable, I'm just getting into Mr Gurdjief s teachings. Anyone any tips of where to begin, reading or more stuff on you tube?
Renee Frankhuizen Start with Ouspensky's little book about The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution.
Maybe you have already made your way into the work and some of the literature. If not, In Search of the Miraculous(Fragments of an Unknown Teaching) by Ouspensky; Toward Awakening by Jean Vaysse; and The Reality of Being by Jeanne de Salzmann. And Gurdjieff’s own writings, beginning with All and Everything (Beelzebub’s Tales). I wish you well.
No one can create a system of spirituality for others... no more than anyone can create their birth.
What Charles is looking for is Leo. He started the Emin (Organisation and spiritual methods) in the early 70's. Look no further. What Charles is talking about to try and develop awareness, is detection. Leo places huge importance on the art of detection. Apart from awareness and activating other centres, it can connect you to very special essences and understandings.
Crystallisation of the higher being body comes from ultimately Andrew Jackson Davis's "Buffalo Doctrine" of conditional immortality
Most people who are trying to understand Gurdjieff, including myself, ignore what the man himself said :
1. Read Baalzeebub’s tales three times : one time as you would read any book, the second time - read the book aloud and in the third reading, really reflect on what one is reading.
2. Nothing can be achieved on ones’ own - a group of people is essential.
valuable exchange!
Love Gurdjeff
This is very interesting. I would really like for you to interview the engineer from Google who claims their AI is sentient. It certainly pertains to the subject of consciousness.. if you haven’t listened to or read the interview he conducted with the AI program, Lambda, you really should. Thank you for your work.
dimitri vegas and like mike was here :v
V-ROOT yes!! Jajajajaj
Jajajajajaja así es😂😂😂😂
V-ROOT *were
I spent 10 years in the Work and can confirm that meditation, called "sitting," does figure prominently
3:53 "Isn't that Romantic", that's exactly what it was, that aspect of the Romantic philosophy known as Orientalism, which he copied from Blavatsky's far eastern, but made his middle eastern, & in doing so was using the principle of misdirection, as most of his sources were Neo-platonic, which includes Pythagoras (Law of 3, Law of 7,, Intentional Suffering, Conscious Labour, Ray of Creation, Proto-enneagram) Plato (Four States of Consciousness including Self-remembering, 3 Storied Factory, Many "I's"), & Stoicism (Non-identification, Control of Negative Emotions, Scale).
I have detected a large population of criminal sociopaths among practitioners of "The Work". "As above, so below".
Walter Alter Blessed are the cheese makers
Hi new thinking allowed, is there anyway you could upload the full interview you did with Robert Anton Wilson of the previous series ? I've looked on Thinking Allowed TV and is only a small clip. Cheers.
That is not possible. However, if you wish you can order the DVD. See www.thinkingallowed.com
I spent time with a college professor who was a student of jg bennett's and they definitely weren't calling him, "Goor-jeef." they called him "Goor-jeff." very annoying to hear his name mispronounced on something like this.
First I would like to say that Mr. Mishlove, you are so handsome!!
After listening to this I am so glad I was never influenced by these older teachers. I was studying Metaphysics since I was 10 years old living as a welfare brat in a slum tenement housing. I learned early on to not be influenced by Indirect Inspiration of others but to get my own Direct Inspiration. As a result my consciousness expanded and I have had adventures in consciousness where I learned on other levels. We are higher beings who have on purpose allowed ourselves to experience as Limited Beings for a time while awake in 3D so we can experience the contrasts of this time space reality and to learn to master this reality by co-creation. Your experiences is what expands the Universe. So the idea that we are supposed to become awake is silly nonsense to me. Every time you are asleep in your bed while your body is recharging you do wake up to the real reality. You think your consciousness is continuous but there are little breaks in between where you are elsewhere. You are Multidimensional Beings existing in many other realities all at the same time. It is like you are playing hide and seek with yourself. As a Hypnotist I can tell you how the mind works in about 5 minutes that will make sense to you. Imagination is the real Holy Grail! You really do create your own reality. There is no meaning to life except what you give it.
I see too many people going into the esoteric and intellectual, who have not yet learned how to build their own character first and master their own selves. The first question they ask you when you die is: "How well did you love?"
JanieMartinSings
My problem is with the weaponized version of metaphysics.
Gurdjieff made it all up
I like eg at he says about the meditation failure
How long you've been member of Gurdjieff 's groups?
The book is about that you do what ever you want. Because the world is a harsh place to live. And it's him speaking to his seed in his balls. And go out into the world be love give love and make love. And get it how ever you want.
small mistake, but still: G. died in 1949 and not in 1940 as CTT is saying :(
István Heimer 40s, not in 1940
Mr. Tart didn't G died in 1940; he said he died in the 1940's (nineteen forties).
Again man as a machine might well have been influenced by Plato's analogy of man as a chariot, horses & driver, but Descartes had an interest in automaton & had a view that all animal & human Bodies were merely animated machines,, then Julien Offray de La Mettrie, wrote “Man a Machine” in 1747, extending Descartes Ideas. Later Anton Mesmer embraced the idea to make his Mesmerism more acceptable to Science, then William Paley wrote “Natural Theology” in 1803. stating that "When you look at a watch or any other complex machine, you know that it must have been made by an intelligent creature. Animals & plants also show the tell-tale signs of design, they are like machines, composed of exquisitely interlocking parts that all interact to help the organism survive." Then A.W. Schlege the Romantic philosopher, made the distinction between Romantic & Classic as between Organic & Mechanical, of great importance to other thinkers, notably Coleridge.
States of consciousness that are often misunderstood can be scientifically linked by talking to brain waves. Let's leave the aliens or other crap like that aside as often happens when a teaching is misunderstood. In fact, teaching is often not acquired rationally, but by experience.
I find it hard to understand how someone could be so into some one and not know the exact year that the person passed away. Gurdjieff passed away Oct 29 , 1949 not 1940. If Mr Tart makes such minor mistakes imagine what he has done with the rest of the Gurdjieff stuff.
Interesting. Dr. Tart simply said he died in the 1940s. He does not give an exact year. We cannot know if he knows the exact date or not. So dates are important to you, but listening?
@@leroycarr9 Well the dates are up there... Apparently Jeffrey Mislove put them up there in the beginning of the video .It just seems that if you are really interested, want to know everything about a spiritual teacher you might want to know all the details of their lives, all the details of what their teaching and practices actually are and then get to know those practices in detail by practicing them and then evaluating them from personal direct experience.Taft says the last thing Gurdjieff wanted is people getting caught up in his personality haha. Guess what? Ouspenksy was sick of his crap and finally connected up with Swami Shantananda Saraswati student of Swami Brahmanda Saraswati , the same Shankaracharya teacher of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Self Observation as in non critical self judgemental self observation is really cool.The teachings are every where now including Anthony DeMello "Awareness" Eckhart Tolle and so many insight meditation teachers etc etc .The self rememberig practice I can't say I got any more from that other than it might invoke an actual mindfulness practice at best. Taft has less than a 6th grade drop's understanding of Buddhism all though his views on Samsara being something you need to get out of he giggling scoffs at and at same time say's waking up is important essential... all this stuff parallesl all the ideas for the need to wake up.I don't know if he actually did the obligatories.For me they dont even compare or come close to some basic chi kung tai chi movements.There's a lot about gurdjieff ideas that are valuable. Taft mentions the fidgeting,That's good.You can read about that in "Life is real, Only when I am" where Gurdjieff refers to some guy as a Booby because he is always fidgeting around.Anyway Tafts assesement of Gurdjieff is probably about as good as any can get, I mean it's fair. Splitting ones attention if you get something from,that good for you.I personally found it useless.
The bookmarks are not from any Gurdjieff group .
19:46 this could more of an initiatory process rather than self-observation
The Enneagram comes from “Etude sur les origines de la nature du Zohar”, S. Karppe, Paris, 1901
martin smith
link that. doubt it. in search (1949) and teaching it in Russia pre revolution are the entry into the west.
Gurdjieff first taught the enneagram in 1916 but the book by S. Karppe, that was mentioned in a footnote in "Search" was published in 1866, also the tetragram from "Isis Unveiled", was a likely source
In fact I shall present also here one other interpretation of the bird scene from Mr. B movie 🎥... at that scene please WHAT DOES the fictional Mr. Gurdjieff shouts out loud ....???
Dr. Tart speaks of the three centers of the individual; the intellectual, emotional, and the moving (I call it the physical). Far too little attention is given to the emotional center, as it is the emotional center more than any other that affects and drives the behavior of each and every individual. In my opinion, lacking in the study of Man the Machine, is an understanding of the primary human emotions, of which there are only five inborn and instinctive emotions or primary human emotions. I'm not aware that Gurdjieff, nor any of his proponents spoke of the human emotions in a comprehensive manner. I urge the viewer to of this video to read my book, "Modern-Day Liberalism: Exploring the Psychological Foundations of the Disorder", available on Amazon. An exposition of the (five) primary human emotions forms the underpinning of my book-all laid out clearly in an understandable manner.
I've got both the 1931 original manuscript and the 1950s version of Beelzebub's Tales. Which should I read?
The 1950 edition is a more refined version and is preferred by most followers. The first edition has been revised in the past few years, but is crude in many respects compared to the latter.
I read the 49 version in 80s.
am going to review all the lit in order. with new early talks. Paris talks ...3 versions of beelzebubs etc.
Tell me...Beelzebub's Tales can be described as similar to Mark Twain's Letters...please tell me there is an historical parallel.
The same day I met Michel de Salzmann, I met Tart. Tart did not appear awake.
It’s very interesting that sel-observation has become mainstream in psychological science under the idea of ‘mindfulness’ and its somatic importance in self sensing. Also ‘woke’ culture and the weirdly political ‘anti-woke’ brigade. In many ways Gurdjieffen methodologies have become mainstream.
Gurdjieff appealed to my intellect. But it was Swedenborg some to my heart.
Vengo por Vercetti :v 🔥
I agree - I don't ever like using my own 'cross'-ness on essentially innocent people. Gurdjieff for me was certainly genuine, and a genuine teacher, but tended to express negative emotions -just to test people? That is the understanding!
I always remember how Krishnamurti said that a truly awake person who has one 'beyond the ind', is WHOLLY Good, has total harmony between the parts of his/her nature, so there is no way they could abuse others, though I am not accusing G of doing this. (God help us from the 'other krishnamurti!)
yes, but his followers tend to express their negative-emotions more readily (in my experience).
I would say that (what you've put,) would be Gurdjieff's general outlook. But he was also more 'loose' in bis speech one time he said when you are conscious you will know what to love, what to hate'... And how 'anger (after awakening) can become genuine force'.
Alcohol and cigarettes were also consumed a lot by this school I was in, as the man did... not a criticism just an observation
I wouldn't say any of us would like to call ourselves 'followers'. Just that this man might help us all be free...
Gurdjieff was a one-off - like a cross between a genuine 'Truth-seeker', purely-so, the real deal... and a kind of businessman who was very clever with human psychology... (that's a bit of a rubbish 'painting' but you may know what I mean)
In that 'School', group, though was one Rina Hands, an initial surviving 'disciple' of him. She was really lovely and I get on with her very well, quite a character, but she was very old when I knew her
NO thinking allowed too :-D
Gurdjieffrey haha. Looking a lot more macho these days.