Suicide Plug Solar Panels?
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- the video discusses the process of generating solar power for a residential home by using solar panels and an inverter to convert DC power into AC power. They also talk about the importance of using specific wall plugs to distribute the DC power to the inverters. The system is comprised of 4 160-watt panels with a total wattage of 640 watts and two panels per feed. It's important to check with local authorities before installing the system to ensure compliance with any rules and regulations. The speaker then proceeds to install the solar panels using a portable lean-to setup. They discuss the use of cable management and how connecting solar panels to a circuit breaker regulated by a 15 amp circuit is safe. The speaker ends the section by plugging in the solar panels and expressing excitement to see what happens.
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00:00 Introduction
00:44 Solar Prices
01:26 Balcony Solar
02:59 Suicide Solar Plug
04:40 How Much Power
06:05 The Solar Power System
07:25 Hooking up to test
08:11 Solar Lean To
09:07 Safety Test
10:29 Outro
The dude abides... "Do you need a permit to input power into the grid? Idono, lets find out"
Exactly!
Watching you try to 🤪coil that cold AC cord made my day!!!!!!
🤙👍🤙!
Great video. Thanks for the info, but I have to say the best part was watching you fight that cable. I've been in the sound industry for 20 years and know the frustration. Lol
Fun! Cold cable wind is an awesome Good time
@@DaveRat I hope you corrected the cold cable wrapping by using the "twist / Anti-twist" method. That ought to fix it good.
Wound it just like new!
Cheers Dave! YES! Keep us posted on the energy GAINS!
Absolutely will do
In my neck of the woods, that is still technically grid tied. If it actually turned the meter backwards a lineman would come visit encouraging you to get the permit and inspection taken care of. It is a safety for when all other safeguards fail. I hope it works well for you.
I don't think it'll generate enough power to overcome the baseline usage of the house when no one's there so I don't think the meter will go backwards, though I hope it does! Also since this inverter type is powered from the grid, if the grid goes down it stops generating electricity.
Is there a limit or a minimum to where you need a permit?
If you generate one watt of electricity do I need a permit?
10 watts 100 watts?
At what point do they enforce or regulate it?
I can see the obvious issue of having an inverter powered by the solar panel that generates energy even when the grid is down being a dangerous scenario.
But this is just like a negative power draw appliance.
@@DaveRat In Germany there is a clear power-limit which is allowed without a permit: currently 600 Watts, but in the near future it will be risen to 800 Watts. They are called "Balkonkraftwerke" ("balcony power plants").
When the grid is down, no solar-powered inverter will work (when still connected to the grid). From the inverters view, the net is basically a 0 Ohm resistance, so its short-circuit protection will kick in.
Interesting and very cool. Yes I could see that being reasonable.
Thank you for the info. Do you know if the 600 w limit is maximum system capability or if it is the maximum amount that can be put back into the grid?
As in, having a thousand watt system that has a 599 w limiter set on it would not need a permit?
This would be quite significant as in most solar systems rarely hit maximum output and often can't even hit half of their rated output.
The system I show in the video has been up for a month or so and I'm lucky to get a single kilowatt per day during the winter.
As I learn more about solar panels I'm finding that even a single cell of the solar panel being shaded can limit the output by 80 or 90%
So for me to get anything close to 600 Watts I would probably need a system much much larger for most of the year
@@DaveRat 600 Watts is the maximal power of the inverter. You could theoretically put 600 Watt (or more to accommodate for the winters) in panel-power to the east, south and west each (but that would be not economical anymore).
We have got 10 kW on the roof (all south) with an inverter being capable of 15 kW (panels will soon be matched to be also 15 kW). In the winter we have an average yield of 3.5 to 13.5 kWh, averaging at around 5 kWh per day. In comparison in the summer we regularly hit shy of 60 kWh per day.
But the permit for those is quiet easy to get, but you need a certified electrican to install the inverter and stuff.
As far as I know, nowaday with modern panels, shaded panels only lower the efficiency by the share of the shaded area. (but not 100% percent sure, could also depend on the panel technology).
As for panel type and power, we got a good deal on Meyer Burger panels, which are to my knowledge some of the best and most efficent currently on the market with up to 400 Watts per panel
I really enjoy this topic ! great Dave !
Awesome and thank you! I'm kind of hoping everyone's okay with me diverging every once in awhile from sound stuff
Same here! Live the overlap of electrical engineering and music engineer here! 👏🏼 I'm heading down the same path!
👍🤙👍
Thanks for sharing. Hobby sized way to get into solar.
🤙👍👍
Ah yes Dave. Those of us that think like you appreciate you!
So cool and thank you!
Great Video. 😃👍♥️
👍🤙👍
2:05 Here in the Netherlands you have to pay if energy is returned to the power company. The grid here is also overloaded and companies have to wait years for a connection to the normal power grid.
Car charging stations are also not possible in some parts. I once had the opportunity to ride an electric motorcycle. However, to charge it with the supplied charger it takes about 8 hours and uses approximately 1,750 watts - approximately 7.6 amps. - (230v/50Hz). On the road at a fast charger it will take you just over an hour.
Very interesting. Yeah I will have to see what happens here. This small four panel setup won't make enough energy to even power with the house typically uses but I look forward to testing and seeing what happens.
If you Google NEC- Solar power, you'll get the latest code requirements. The biggest concern is during a power outtage, back feeding the grid. This could kill a lineman. This really applies to very large, high output systems and standby generators. But that is a pretty cool system sparky!
The system can't backfeed. The inverter is powered by the wall so as soon as the power goes down the solar inverter stops working
@@DaveRat Which raises a question. How does the inverter know when the 120vac at the ‘special plug’ is not available at the line exclusive of the inverter? How does it know?
There are a few ways to detect this, most common is for the inverter to try increase the output frequency, if it is connected to grid won't be able to, if it is disconnected it can and then shuts down.
Another way to detect this is what I do in the video which is unplug the inverter And then really quickly lick the Edison plug
@@ShaneFromSA That would be an ingenious solution if not for the fact that is the same mechanism that enables sync. That ‘servo-ing’ is in constant use, literally every sample. I doubt that is what it’s doing.
Yes, folks, what you see in the end of the video is what we touring stage people actually do with cheap electric cords. Over under, of course. Water hoses as well. I don’t know if I’m even capable of ignoring a bad wrap.
So true
"We would not want lazy electricity" lol! Sweet vid, as always
👍🤙👍
One gotcha to watch out for: if you don't have a bidirectional meter (and it's unlikely that you do) the meter doesn't care which direction the power is flowing, it still counts it. So if you ever generate more than your house is using at any given time, you will get billed for what you exported as if you had imported it. There are countless stories in solar forums about people turning on their solar arrays before they've received utility permission (along with a new meter) and getting huge power bills for the power they sent to the grid.
On the sunniest of days, your small array won't generate much more than 5kwh so worst case at your electrical rates you'd be on the hook for $1.70/day.
That's super interesting and I will try and figure that out at some point on a sunny day and shut off all the breakers except for the one with the solar. See if I can tell.
That said, unless I get more solar panels I don't think they can make more juice in my house uses just sitting there doing nothing
Thanks, your comment answered a question I was hoping to ask, that being - if we agree you can run power in ‘both directions’ in your home or the grid, how does your home system (or the grid for that matter) figure that out and then either power your appliances or sell your energy.
That sounds more like a design than a gotcha.
Great question. So the energy will flow in the direction from higher voltage to lower voltage. So if you have two power sources for example, one being the Edison power plant and the other being the solar panels and they are connected together and phase aligned, And there is nothing else drawing power, and both systems put out exactly the same voltage say 120 volts exactly, then nothing happens.
But if the solar generation is putting out a slightly higher voltage say 121 volts then power will flow from the solar generator back into the Edison power grid.
The solar inverters that power the grid or put power back into the grid are designed to output slightly higher voltage than 120 volts putting energy back into the grid up to the limit of the amount of current they're capable of outputting at any given point in time.
If the sun is bright and all the panels are being hit then the solar generator will put out a higher voltage which causes more current to go back into the grid
Energy automatically flows from higher potential to lower potential or higher voltage to load.
If the solar generator is putting out over 122 volts and Edison is putting out 120 volts, then Edison becomes the load and the solar generator will push power into it
The old power meters were based on coils of wire and magnets such that energy flowing through the coils of wire would spin the meter. Energy flowing the opposite direction would spin the meter the opposite direction it's just an electro mechanical reality
That said, the modern meters are a little computers and theoretically can be programmed to do whatever the power company wishes. The power company could easily program the meters to rack up charges regardless of which way the energy is flowing.
If that is truly the case, then that opens a whole new fun can of worms to investigate!!
I am looking forward to figuring that out
In my western european country they sell this as an all in one. You can buy a solar panel (or duo pack) which just comes with a plug attached. Not very popular though as its very cheap to fill your roof with solar here. Pays itself back in less than 3 years currently.
Very cool and unfortunately here the price of solar is really high.
In California they changed the rules so now it takes 10 years or more to break even
you should go see your house meter as its plugged and unplged
I had a buddy who had two power meters for the main house and a rental unit and he hooked both of them up to each other, and started cranking a variac and then he got the little spinning wheel in the power meters to actually stop! It was sort of suicidal to watch him do this insanity but it was madness! There are sounds of pain coming from the house wiring lol. Can't wait to see if someone notices this happening 😅😊
That's crazy and ballsy stuff!
I saw an all in one kit from amazon thats kinda expensive for one panel but this setup looks better. Cant wait for the update video.
Cool cool Yes it still working and it's winter time so I'm not getting much power from the solar as the tall trees around her shading it.
I never realized how sensitive solar panels are to a little bit of shade.
Kind of like batteries in series where one cell is low the whole pack doesn't put out very much voltage or power.
Seems the solar cells are the same and each panel is a whole bunch of little cells in series and if you shade even a few of them hit drastically reduces the entire output of the panel.
At least for these panels.
And yes I will post more as soon as I have some good information
@@DaveRat this won't probably make you a lot of money on the bill, but with a few small batteries in the mix, like a UPS at the wall outlet where say your Internet is hooked up and a few solar powered security cameras, your vacation property can sustain it's own security system for free. I have that T-Mobile mobile Internet and a few Amazon cameras that are solar powered/WiFi. They don't use too much juice and I can check in when I want to via the app.
Viseefocu is the brand/company. The price fluctuates too much but $29.99 (after $10 coupon) is the good time to buy
6:55 is my favorite attitude
Ha! Great to meet ya and curious and fun are the same thing!
Bad^ss!! ... Looking forward to Solar/Sub experiments ; )
Happy New Year
✌
I'm pondering whether to do a grid inverter test using a power amplifier as a grid source and see if I can learn some stuff
@DaveRat I have read the issue with feeding the grid without a grid disconnect is the possibility of putting voltage on the lines when the line workers expect it to be down, during an emergency for example.
Did you watch the part of the video where I licked the AC power plug while the solar panels were generating energy?
If I can lick it it's not going to be generating enough energy to hurt anyone!
I explain all that in the video though
@@DaveRatSeems like if everyone bends the rules it could become dangerous for the line workers during an emergency. The required transfer switch and interlock would be easy enough to install tho. I’ve seen some ppl here do this for a solar generator.
Did you watch the video? Especially the part where I demonstrated that it does not put out any power whatsoever unless there is already power at the house connected to it? The inverter that generates the electricity to put electricity back on the grid is powered by the grid!
No grid power equals no power generated for the grid from the solar
Did you see where I licked the live power plug to show that it does not put out any power?
Just to be clear, The unit needs grid power in order to generate power.
This is not like a generator that generates power and can put it back on the grid and endanger people it's way safer perhaps even safer than a refrigerator or any electric that spins and continues to generate some electricity back to the grid for a short period of time after a power loss
@@DaveRat I’m just saying there are requirements for hooking stuff like this up due to those concerns I mentioned. Your system is great and super safe. We just hope everyone here is safe as you.
I love the lick it part!
👍🤙👍 safety first!
Makes sense Dave! As long as the current is little, then I don’t see why not. Like you said the panel breaker is still in place to pop if current increases too much in the event that someone on the power lines touches your lines, 5 amps 120v would be a decent shock I would think
Did you see in the video where I unplugged the suicide plug from the wall and then quickly licked it?
I'm figuring if I can lick that hot plug while the sun is hitting the panels we're going to be okay
@@DaveRat i commented while you were doing the intro, my bad! but youre right seems safe when the power goes out. im curious to see what would happen if you say turned off the main breaker while its still connected. Maybe it would stay one if other appliances are pulling power from it potentially, maybe too much flower.
@poland153 naw, this is an "on grid" inverter and needs the wall voltage to power it.
That said, there are "off grid" inverters that will run from the solar panels. For those you need special grid power sensing relays that disconect the grid when power goes down and in the solar will keep your house running. Then when power from the grid comes back on, The inverter detects the frequency synchronizes itself and once synchronized, the grid power sensing relays reconnect the grid.
Physical prevent people working on the power system from exposure to power when the grid is down.
These simple systems are designed to augment grid power when grid power is active, hence the suicide plug that actually is never live unless plugged in
Subbed. Looking forward to update
Cool cool, thank you and wi keep you updated
First time commenter, and enjoy the channel greatly. Others have noted the "backfeed" issue and it's quite important to a lineman. Your 120 becomes 7.5Kv on the power company side of the pole transformer. But ignoring that, your comments about people in multi-dwelling units all buying these got me thinking. If the mains goes away, but a bunch of these inverters start free-running at roughly 60 Hz...who locks up to who? And then, back to the original already commented backfeed thing. You'd have several inverts all contributing to the backfeed unless the inverters somehow "know" they lost the mains.
Those are two diff things. The inverter I got does not back feed. It is powered by the grid so no grid, no solar generation.
As far as balcony solar in Ukraine, not sure how they do it and great question.
Putting a grid power sensing relay on the building that disconnects the grid when grid power is down and reconnects when power is back, would be one way to do it.
I gotta look up the inverter you bought. I'm sure I'm missing something, but it seems magical to me that the inverter can simultaneously monitor the incoming line while at the same time outputting (presumably) the same voltage and frequency back into the line. I just figured once it starts, it just continues to go. Your relay drop out on loss of mains is a good idea. I guess you could monitor the other phase to detect an outage. Thanks again for the many excellent videos.@@DaveRat
@@mikecue4012 That's the part I don't understand. if it's making the same thing that it sees, it has no way of telling if that supply is still there.
@@mikecue4012since AC is AC, and electronics are pretty magical, just as your phone or Zoom can echo cancel your own voice in your speakers, and prevent other voices from your speakers from feeding back through the microphone, it would be pretty easy for it to detect power feeding from some other source, vs what it's producing itself.
However, if there is another power source such as another solar unit on the same circuit, it can't tell that from the grid and they could theoretically feed each other.
@ke6gwf agreed and as long as the grid is active, those inverters would donate a tiny amount of energy to the massive grid. But when the grid is down it looks like a dead short to those tiny sources. So they would just be shotes to 0 volts.
If the main breaker of the house was disconnected and also the house had an inverter on the circuit that did not require synchronizing to the grid, then the two would work together
Yes you can have an inverter that creates a sync generate power and connect an inverter that requires sync as a contributor.
But no matter how you look at it, an inverter that requires sync will need a sync source whether it's the grid or another self-sync inverter.
And no matter what, unless you have a relay that disconnects the grid from your self generating self-sync inverter setup, if the grid goes down it's going to short everything out because your little solar system would not even begin to power a dead grid.
Having a self synchronizing solar inverter that generates power that is also not hooked up to a disconnect relay that disconnects the grid, could pose an issue for lineman if for example a tree branch broke the wires to your house.
In that scenario yourself synchronizing solar system inverter would continue generating electricity while not connected to the grid and if lineman came to reconnect your house they could get shocked.
But that's a whole different can of worms unrelated to this system here.
Yeah, good panels got really cheap. And the micro inverters too. I prefer the hoymiles brand. There are quality differences too. They should last at least 15 years...
In Germany this small solar installations on f.e. on balconys are called Balkonkraftwerk.
Here you can produce up to 800W with minimal paperwork but no compensation for the power. It's only for direct use (or small storage). We usually use either two 300 or 400W inverters linked or one 600 or 800W double inverter with 380 - 430W large size panels (like trina solar vertex s or ja solar or or or...).
You can also take quad inverters with 1500W max and limit them to 800W for a more even power supply (like a sound signal with a limiter 😊).
These systems are easy and fun to build.
Don't stress about regulations. Just be within safety code.
And with software and smart home solutions and tinkering you can maximize your solar direct consumption.
Greetings from Germany.
So cool and thank you for the info! Yes over here in the US we are slow to adopt and there is very limited selection. It's just a complete unknown.
I really appreciate the info!
I to liked the idea of Solar for many reasons. I have 3 Solar Arrays running on my property. The Electrical Code here in Nova Scotia is changing continually LiFePo4 Battery Technology has added some changes along the way. I love the reduce your utilities bill as much as possible but I am sure they will not like this type of generation of power because it will reduces their pay cheques as more power is generated at home. The concept is awesome but they like the 25 year contract that they track the credits in Nova Scotia! This way they control how much power is actually generated by solar. Applications all take time and there is a process to get approved.
I'm with you and thank you for the info!
My kind of guy... "Lets find out" . I'd done basically the same thing (different inverter box) and it works and will roll the meter backwards if it's the older analog meter with spinning wheel. I just tested over a few days about 8 years ago. Recently they upgraded the meter to digital and I suspect the digital meter cannot tell the current direction so if I push anything into the grid, I SUSPECT I'd be paying for it rather than getting a "credit" (meter backwards). Best option is make your own time-of-day setup to store up and run things from sun/battery instead of grid and save that way.
Can't comment on your electrical code as an Australian, but one thing that would be the same, which is a problem here, something the solar companies will not inform you of and the customer will wonder why their return rate is low, is your existing no load grid voltage. in australia our nominal voltage is 230V, by our electrical code the supply authority must provide to the house connection between 216V to 253V. and here for an inverter to be legally installed it must have these software parameters in place: if voltage exceeds 255V for 10 minutes or exceeds 260V for any amount of time it must disconnect from the grid. now the complaint from customers is due to not receiving as much money back, as what they were sold. and this is normally due to the fact they are close to a transformer and already at around 250 volts, so their inverter may only be able to raise the voltage by 3 volts, ohms law etc etc. the panel may be displaying it's receiving [x] amount of kW from the sun, but deeper into the inverter's menu they'll find export kW is far lower because of this, as well as other factors such as neighbouring solar users also rising the grid voltage.
TL;DR - If your supply voltage is already high you won't see much return from idle use until you actually put load on your supply and lower the voltage for the inverter to push back.
Interesting. It seems Ike the solar inverter would only need to create a voltage slightly over the grid voltage.
Seems like having a current limited solar inverter output with a voltag set some voltage above the grid voltage and and the inverter output instantly is dragged down and held at the grid voltage, by the grid load such that the inverter is delivered vering it's maximum current at any given point in time is what would naturally occur.
Or would no be possible for the inverter to raise the grid voltage with massive grid load of holes nders or thousand of house connected.
The solar inverter output of someone's home would be akin to the lifting force of a single human working with hind ra of others to lift a barn.
No one is really lifting any higher than the person next to them, but the combined lift raises the entire structure.
No inverter connected to the ground d really has a voltage any higher than the grid, but the combined outputs of the inverters and main generator from the power company, combine to carry the grid load.
The meter just keeps track of how much load each house is using or providing.
And check out this cool example
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8320953/amp/Amazing-moment-300-Amish-men-lift-huge-barn-bare-hands-field.html
Dave, without going into too much detail there is another inherent aspect of this type of system that can be dangerous. When this type of device is plugged into a 20 amp 120 volt circuit, it is supplementing the available power in that circuit, the 20-amp breaker feeding this circuit will trip over 20 amps or an instantaneous fault. Say this circuit is already cruising at 16 amps, and your solar system can inject another close to 6 amps after the breaker, and somebody plugs something into that same circuit and now it's pulling 22 amps on number 12 conductors which are rated for 20 amps, the breaker still thinks it's only feeding 16 amps and will not trip, conductor overheating will begin and the breaker has no clue. If somebody had a 10 amp solar system that they plugged into the wall into a 20 amp circuit the potential for feeding 28 amps into the circuit conductors and the breaker never seeing it is there. I say this because typically people don't realize they have overloaded a circuit until the breaker trips and then they may figure out that that space heater or blow dryer can't be used at the same time as the microwave or TV in the bedroom. There's much more to this Dave but I know you have the big brains to wrap your head around this one.
Interesting and it's 640 watts, that comes out to about 5 amps and it's a 15 amp breaker so worst case scenario is everything was exactly perfect and I put 20 amp s worth of appliances on that circuit during the day while the sun is extremely brightly shining, I could probably get away with it until a cloud came by and the breaker blew.
Being that I've never blowing a breaker at that house in the 25 years I've owned it and they're just isn't enough appliances there to do anything, I'll put this into the bucket of worries along with getting bit by a shark and hit by a meteor.
I pondered this further and the 15 amp breaker of that circuit is based on a really long run of 14 or 12 gauge wire. In the event that you described, those various appliances would be located at shorter distances and be pulling power from both directions effectively doubling the thickness of the wire available therefore increasing the current capability of that circuit. So even in worst case scenario as you describe and no clouds coming by or shade, The mathematics point to the circuit still being able to handle the load safely.
In fact the load should cause a power drop across the wires and self-auto regulate wherein if it's pulling too much from the grid 15 amps let's say then that voltage will drop a bit and it would then pull more power from the solar because it would be less voltage drop in the wire from that direction.
All in all, that complex hypothetical does not appear to be unsafe.
Also of note, the solar feed is it the opposite end of the house to the grid feed so any load would be in the middle between the two feeds or right next to one feet or the other.
If it's right next to one feed and draws 15 amps from the far away feed and another 15 amps from the very close feed totaling 30 amps even then, The long wire would see 15 amps which is fine and the extremely short wire would see 15 amps which is also fine and the only thing that would see 30 amps would be any T leg we're in both feeds meet together and then a single leg carrying both feeds runs out to the outlet where there's overloaded source that shouldn't be in the house and draws more current than the plug it has on it, is plugged in.
If it's a bunch of multiple current draws distributed throughout that leg then the ones closer to the grid feed would pull off the grid feed and the ones closer to the solar feed would pull up the solar feed and we'd be fine.
Excellent thought experiment and after running through this I feel even better about tripling the size to a 15 amp!
@@DaveRat I do understand exactly what you're saying and under perfect conditions that would be Optimum, except that any 120 volt duplex or single outlet in a residential setting is only rated for maximum 20 amps, 15 amps at worst. Dave, I am more than confident in your understanding of this, just hopefully others reading this will realize the potential for problems. Side question...... does the inverter have a UL listing?
I doubt the inverter is UL listed but also we are not talking about something as scary and dangerous as a hair dryer or toaster that draws loads of power and generated loads of heat.
We are looking at something more in the realm of computer power supply
So I adjust my fears accordingly.
The solar plugs into the outlet next to the Trager pellet grill which poses more of a real world danger in this solar adventure ever will.
There are some interesting comments here from people overseas where these types of setups are more common and the cautious fears have already been vetted.
Gaining my bearings on this and settling in to it is a bit scary because it's unfamiliar but in absence of doing something really obviously stupid, totally simple and safe.
Pretty much exactly what you said
@@DaveRat thank you Dave you have me looking at this in a different perspective, I was a bit knee-jerk in my first reply, I think I'm going to research my options with this type of system. ROCK ON BROTHER!
Seems like you would need to keep careful records of your usage and your bill to know if it was working. California solar rule changes are a drag. My state MASS is still has incentives. Our 10 Kw system was around $3.30 a watt 3 years ago. If I had not done this whole house project, (cause in Massachusetts, why wouldn't you), I was considering one of the portable battery / inverter boxes that has a DC input so you could use solar to charge it. I have no batteries yet for my house and have been talking with my solar guy about a trailer with batteries. That way I can use them in the summer to power my PA in remote locations and in the winter to help with storms. Cheers
Agreed and that little meter will tell me how many kilowatts went from the solar into the house so I'll have a number that I could just multiply by the cost and no pretty well what I've saved. Plus I have all the historical bills I can see if they drop. I'm thinking about adding two more of those lean-tos and bring it up to 1800 Watts and maxing out that 15 amp breaker though it'll never generate that because of shade and trees and stuff
Looking forwards to your updates on this system, including reliability and hardiness against inclement weather… obviously it won’t perform with snow, but will it live again after snow load? The panels look a bit thin to hold such a load….
"Wind's picking up... storm's a-brewing."
"Quick - bring in the main sail, before she rips and blows away!"
"Can't, sir - you glued and nailed her to the ship!"
As a gust swoops down and picks up the panel structure, carrying it over the nearby town.
"It's the jellyfish UFO!" the townspeople will say. But youll be trying to chase it down "My generator's getting away!"
Better make sure it's on there pretty tight, but also removable for heavy snowstorms.
🤣
Those panels are rated at 5400 PA, which calculates out to about 113 lb per square foot.
The panels are bolted to the redwood beams with four bolts each and the entire structure is bolted to the deck where the cross beams are. And it's tied into the house where I've anchored the eve to the house beams and anchored the lean-to to the eve.
The entire structure is crazy rigid and the solar panels form a leak proof roof and I sealed the seams with clear caulking.
Solar panel specs:
Dimension: 48.98 ×26.57 ×1.38inch /1244 x 675 x 35mm, 22.88lbs/10.38kg, high winds (2400PA) and snow loads (5400PA)
The MAJOR problem is if you have a fault and manage to electrocute yourself then instead of your RCBO or RCD tripping out and saving you the solar will continue to power the circuit as they don't have the same turn of specs as your RCD's ( solar is between 50ms and 5 seconds depending) so your are very likely to end up dead! Solar should always be on a separate circuit with its own breaker and pre your RCD /RCBO's in order that they are not blinding the RCD/RCBO with DC from the inverter which can also be a problem. Also make sure you have type A RCBO's ( can have up to 6mA of DC and still work) not type ac which have only just been banned here in the UK but there are still millions out there, they were phased out in the rest of Europe over 20 years ago! Not sure what your current regs are over in the US of A perhaps a US based spark could let us know?
Say hi to Jackie and Shadow✌️
Love Jackie and Shadow!!
Balcony Solar is kind of a gateway drug ;-) You should expect that you will soon become addicted and need harder stuff.
Like me... In December I got 17.8 kW panels on my roof and 12.8 kWh battery into my basement. :-)
Yes! And it's awesome.
I've only got seven kilowatts on my roof at my primary residence but it's very cool to have
It's a nit-pic I know, but if you have 15A coming from the breaker, and 10A coming from solar lets say, that means you have an outlet that if someone else used wouldn't blow even on a load (or short) of 25 amps.
Interesting concept and that is looking at power as if it's water flowing if you have 10 gallons flowing in one direction from one source and 15 gallons flowing from another source then you have a total 25 gallons flowing right?
But this is different. If you have 15 amps flowing from the grid to an appliance on that circuit and then you put 10 amps from the solar onto that same circuit then the appliance withdraw 10 amps from the solar and 5 amps from the grid because the appliance only draws 15 amps we're just changing where it gets the energy from.
Furthermore the energy coming from the solar is not going through the breaker to get to the appliance it's going straight from the solar to the appliance and reducing the amount from the grid going through the breaker
If you really wanted to do some fun nitpicking you could say that if you put a 25 amp appliance on a 15 amp circuit and have 10 amps coming from the solar and 15 amps coming from the grid you could power that 25 amp appliance on that 15 amp circuit.
But as soon as the sun went down the breaker would blow.
That said, it's pretty obscure and highly improbable unless intention or complete knuckleheadedness took over
Nice! links please
I would like to add a word of caution here. In a solar system installed according to the electrical code, in the event of a power failure from the utility side, the system would disconnect the house from the utility power. At that point all power usage in the house would be from the solar and storage systems. The reason for this is to protect the linemen worked to repair the outage. Without the disconnect, you are feeding power into the entire grid. When a lineman goes to make a repair, he will have voltage present on the load side that is not supposed to have power in it. There have been very bad accidents due to people running generators backwards into their panels during power outages. The current policy now is to check for power on the load side and tracking it down. They then disconnect the source (your house) and fix the problem that caused the outage. You then get the pleasure to call and explain that most of your neighbors have power and you don't. They come out and bring an electrical inspector with them to deliver the lecture, paperwork to have your system fixed or removed and the wonderful slip with your bill on it for their time and the fines. Since it is to protect the life of a human, I have to agree with the outcome.
Yes! And that was my #1 concern.
Did ya see where I licked the AC plug with everything live?
The inverter is powered by the 120 wall voltage so as soon as power goes down, the panels can no longer put voltage onto the grid.
I even tried unplugging really fast and also measuring the output. The inverter needs the house electric to be live in order to output ac
I was really hoping that it shut off when it couldn't sync with the line power. I just found your channel and joined to watch more and I thought you had taken that into consideration but others may not. Thank you so much for the videos!!
@@DaveRat
@chamstreet1 very cool and great to meet you and appreciate the info!
Thank you!!
In my ad hoc system for hurricanes, I’ve used a 2PDT switch to avoid that. I’m embarrassed to admit, I originally deployed the switch without any thought of lineman issues. Not that I didn’t care, but that the hazard didn’t even occur to me. 🤦🏽♂️
The cool thing is that at least this inverter is powered by the wall power such that it cannot create voltage back to the building when the building power is off.
That said, there are systems that are capable of running your house when the building power is off. Those systems would definitely be a safety concern for lineman working on the system.
I believe the difference is whether or not it's an off-grid solar inverter or an on grid solar inverter like this
Beware. If you dont consume all that 640ish watts and dont have bi-directional (net metering), the utility company will charge you if any power makes it back to the grid as traditional meters don’t know direction of AC.
Interesting and very cool thank you. That sounds like something fun to test!
I know the really old meters that are purely electro-mechanical automatically spin the opposite direction because the wheel spins based on the direction current is flowing.
That said, conceivably there could be meters that rotate the same direction regardless of the direction of current
The power company switched this house to a wireless digital meter four or five years ago so I will have some fun testing to see how it's programmed
Will that’s worth getting a box of beer and watch the meter
Yes! Well spent mountain time!
Conservative estimate you make 1.2kW/h a day for 300 days that's 360kW/h a year. At $0.35 KW/h that's $126 of electricity offset a year. Pay off period of approx 6 years. Not too far off regular solar ROI, Nice.
Plus I saved money on the roof tiles for the lean-to that allows me to barbecue without standing in the rain or snow when the weather hits
That was fun! So, .35/kwh, you guessing you get 1kw/day, and 300 days of sun = $105 saved per year? 7 year roi? Regardless, I like how you just try stuff and say "why not?"
I wonder how the power back to the grid works too, like you would think you would probably have to be producing more than you consume at any given time for it to start flowing the other way. It's a complete mystery to me. I'm going to go practice scales and see if my fingers still move when I ask them too (they never do, but I keep trying). 😎😎
With that small solar array I probably will just be reducing the amount of draw from the grid.
I am thinking if it works to triple the size of it up to 1800 Watts in which case I should be able to put some power back into the grid.
Energy will flow from higher voltage to lower voltage and the solar inverter is current limited to whatever it's maximum output at any given time can be.
So the solar inverter will sit there and generate whatever power it does and put it back into the house where it will be used by any appliances and any excess will attempt to go back to the grid.
This happens automatically because the output of the solar panel inverter when generating energy will have a slightly higher voltage than the grid voltage which puts power back into the grid or house
@@DaveRat You the man! It's a cool concept.
I’m going to be honest. We leave it to the pros BUT off grid solar arrays here are big. Caravans property’s etc and there are plenty of diy kits here and most of us for the houses since 85% have solar go through reputable operations to note. SMA is the inverter brand of choice. It’s a bit like the McIntosh audio. They are still here and it’s a big deal with dodgy installs where the fire crews need their tongs to seperate the arrays from the house. Don’t muck around with cheap inverters. Remeber if the house catches fire and you have a 10kw system on the roof that’s a pretty serious amount of raw power sizzling away. For us we are only allowed to export 5kw back to the grid UNLESS you have 3 phase then you are allowed to pump 5kw back per phase so I says to myself we will throw a 20kw system on the room plenty of power and we cash in about $1500 a year for doing nothing the tariffs are low now but many locked in when it first started at about 80cent feedin tariff and they are laughing. Another thing to note is check your specs for the underside of the panels our gear needs to be cyclone rated and it’s the wind that can come up under the panel which can be the worry in calculations certainly will go beyond just the electrical. Also passive cooling of a simple inverter to a big one is well worth putting some thought in. Stay safe.
Super cool and thank you for the info!
This is only 640 Watts And I think I'm going to increase it to 1800 watts.
But I doubt it will ever generate that much maybe half that at best on a sunny day up there.
I did look up the snow rating and it appears to be 113 pounds per square ft.
We don't get cyclones. My biggest threat is pinecones dropping from nearby 60 ft trees!
Remember to ground the panels with a ground spear
It just plugs in the wall so it grounds off the house electric with the ground pin.
Do I really need to add a second ground rod to the house? As this is already grounded.
@@DaveRat from what I can tell it is common practice to do so. The frames of each panel needs to be connected and a wire needs to go to a ground spear.
@KlausEvenEnevoldsen interesting, yeah I could see grounding metal even if it's not touching anything electrical. I don't have the inverter bolted to the panels directly so those frames would just be floating. I suppose if I bolted the inverter to the frames the frames would ground from the inverter and therefore be grounded whenever the inverter plugged in and it wouldn't matter if the inverter's not plugged in.
For panels that are permanently wired to the house, I could totally see needing those frames grounded as a safety precaution.
I will need to ponder that. And probably at least run a ground wire from the inverter shell to the frames.
But now that I think about it, All of the frames are not connected together either so I need to run a ground wire to each and every frame.
Yeah this requires some research to see what the norm is.
The question for me is, do the tens of thousands of balcony solar systems that plug in the wall used throughout Europe have a separate ground wire?
They have higher voltage over there and typically higher safety standards so whatever they're doing I think will be good
@@DaveRat I’m European so that might be a factor.
Awesome very cool. Let me ask you this. For balcony solar setups, how do they run the ground wire and ground stake? Are there like a shit ton of wires dangling off the balconies down to the ground stakes?
Or a ground wire to the ground stake running up the side of the building that everyone ties into?
I am imagining an apartment building with solar panels on the balconies of various apartments and condos going up 5, 10 or more stories and wondering how they all connect to ground stakes.
Cool cool and thank you!
Not an electrician by any means but wouldn't this only supplement power being drawn from the same circuit it's plugged into?
It will supplement the power on the circuit tied into as well as every circuit that that is tied into. Since electrical wiring for a house is bi-directional any power that it puts onto that circuit will go all the way back to the source.
The question is whether the meter on my house will read power going the reverse direction and what the power company will do if it does.
One possibility is that the meter will go backwards when generating and forwards when I'm using power and they'll kind of balance each other out and reduce my bill
Another possibility is the meter will be programmed not to ever go backwards and the solar power generated will just reduce the amount of energy I draw from the grid
A third possibility is that the meter measures power and doesn't look at the direction which way it comes from and as I generate excess power to the grid they charge me for it.
I will figure all this out before I expand the system but for now the system barely generates enough energy to cover the amount my house uses just sitting there.
So the solar should just reduce the amount of energy I use
If you add more solar panels in the future, I would consider adding an additional inverter to an outlet on a different leg of the main breaker panel to benefit both L1 and L2 circuits in the house. Or getting a 240v inverter and using a dryer plug to simplify the operation.
Great point. This inverter can only run 4 panels. I can daisy chain multiple inverters. If I us 3 inverters thAt would be 15amps or 1800 watts and max out that circuit.
Will see what the max solar generation power is. I doubt I will get more than 50% of rated power even at peak sun, as the panels are not optimAlly angled and loads of trees around
Please keep us updated as this is an intriguing experiment
голь на выдумку хитра😅
👍🤙👍
What you are calling balcony solar is much better known as guerrilla solar, folks have been doing this for years.
Very cool. Commenters from Europe say it's legit thing over there. Over here in the us I guess it's whatever you want to call it
After researching it and using it I've come to understand it as just another appliance but has a negative energy draw
8:55 haha 😂 haha 😂🔌⚠❗⚡🚧💥
Yes, I am child when I doubt, taste it
same me whit ear plugs in 230v haha 😂haha 😂, its was a big bang@@DaveRat
as child thinking, device suck power. Then i made my one PSB's and mixingdesk... still have a DJ (first jobe 2 watts Tube amp) 2.500 singels vinyl 45 rpm in stock...lp's, 12inch, cd's ... soundcheck at mij home: ua-cam.com/video/Yl81dVBOToY/v-deo.htmlsi=ZL5pWKnDBqMx6FTW
I pity the linesman who has to trust their life to the reliability of a proliferation of cheap grid tie inverters.
Interesting, so you're afraid that an inverter that is powered by the grid will somehow mysteriously become powered when th grid is down?
since systems like this are readily available and used throughout the world, there is probability that this safety concern is not significant
My understanding is that when the grid goes down all of the loads of all of the houses make the grid look like a dead short and it would take a massive power source to re-energize it or energize it at all
The inverter is designed not to generate electricity when the grid is down and if the grid is down and since grid turns into a short, it would either blow up the inverter or a protection circuit would kick in.
Either way instantaneously the lineman is safe.
That said knowledge and understanding always beats guesses And there's always more to learn and understand.
Here's a link with some info that may be interesting and I'd love to hear other informed perspectives
www.inverter.com/on-grid-inverter-basics-working-principle-and-function
In short, yes. I completely get the design operation and principle, and theoretically its totally safe. It's just if there are 10,000 of them, it takes just one transconductance device to catastrophically fail, and these components fail as we both experience with amplifier. Granted, even in that scenario you'd probably just get the DC voltage of the array up the line, and the transformer wouldn't conduct that, but the normal safety systems we have say on amplifier - overcurrent and GFID just don't exist in this scenario. So their safety standard should be a lot higher, but I'm not seeing that level of oversight in the designs. But maybe it's there and I just don't know it? Or maybe by basic virtue of design its truly impossible for this to happen, its just without 10 years of data I'm not sure we can be sure. Does that make sense? @@DaveRat
Maybe I am just burned by the misfortune of having seen amplifiers go bang and conduct half rectified mains...
Well, perhaps take a look at the safety standards this unit adheres to.
UL1741 is probably the most applicable to your concerns. But there are several others listed
Description
Specification
Material: Aluminum Alloy
Color: Silver
Model: XJ-WVC-700W
Plug: US Standard
Voltage: 110V
Maximum Input Power: 2 × 350W
Recommended Solar Panel: Power 2 × 350W, Open Circuit Voltage 30-50V
Maximum Input DC Voltage: 54V
Peak Power Tracking Voltage: 22-45V
Operating Voltage Range: 17-50V
Minimum/Maximum Starting Voltage: 22-50V
Maximum DC Short Circuit Current: 40A
Maximum Input Working Current: 30A
Output Voltage: 120V
Output Peak Power: 700W
Rated Output Power: 650Watt
Rated Output Current: 6.36A
Rated Voltage Range: 80-160VAC
Rated Frequency Range: 57-62.5Hz
Power factor: >99%
Number of Connections Per Series Circuit: 6 (Single-phase)
Output Efficiency: 120V
Static MPPT Efficiency: 99.5%
Maximum Output Efficiency: 91.2%
Power Loss at Night:
DIN VDE 1026 UL1741 is really interesting. I'm just not sure I trust capacitors and transconduction devices not to pull antics. @@DaveRat
lol we don't want lazy electricity
Absolutely correct we need our electricity to be fit on in shape so it does its best work!
Otherwise it might get confused by normal IEC chords and think it needs a $5,000 power cord in order to make good audio