Hey Sayf, if you ever get a chance to break down cross arm defense like Frazier or a later Foreman I would love to see a video on that. It was something I was not taught and never used. I also had a few requests for it on my channel.
I'm a Mexican American 46 year old volunteer boxing coach in the inner citiy of Milwaukee Wisconsin. Working with Young kids, teenagers and young adults. I'm one of your biggest fan. I learned a lot by watching your videos. Thank you for taking the time To share your knowledge with everyone and I know some don't appreciate it but I appreciate it 100% and I Incorporated in my teachings at the boxing gym. More power to you brotha!
Actually James Toney At Middleweight DID not avoid anyone. His resume at Middle is better than Floyd's at welter. People forget the Toney legacy at Middle. As for Floyd being "smarter", you have to proof that. Him avoiding certain fighters maybe, but smarter, no. as for evading punches, Floyd does not EVADE, he blocks! James EVADES since he slips.
There is nothing in Floyd's methods that says he is smarter unless you are talking about picking his fights. James lasted this long without taking a beating because his is VERY smart.
hey Sayf!! :) oh don't worry about that, trust me I know exactly how it is, the door is open anytime, even if it's years from now lol. Thanks for your insight on cross arm blocking. I've especially liked some of your latest vids. thanks, talk soon.
Loche? Hands down up there with Pernell, Benitez .....Smooth. Actually Martinez TRIES to copy him, but most people have never heard of Nicky, so they do not catch on lol
As for me lashing out at people, let me say this: WHERE I COME FROM, MEN EITHER FIGHT OR THEY DON'T!!!! IF ANYONE THINKS I AM A FRAUD, I WILL GO A ROUND WITH THEM! I am doing what MEN do! what do YOU do other than talk from behind a keyboard? At 51 I am willing to back up what I say! THAT IS A MAN! YOU put your fists where your mouth is or shut up "Lady"!
No diss to Floyd, but James was smoother with it, and was much more aggressive and adept at throwing combinations. Just a smoother, more exciting fighter.
@250DollarsPC 2) The strength of James Toney was his composure under fire. Many people tried to take his head off from the start, but ended up winded and beaten (see him vs Barkley).
i think both Mayweather and Toney are great defensive masters regardless of technical variations especially on the inside. Toney relies more on his head movement slipping punches, Mayweather can do the same but relies more on blocking punches. Both rely on some degree of athleticism. But i see more versatility in Mayweather's game with better ring generalship, which is why i say he's a better fighter. Not taking anything away from Toney but his whole game is almost solely based on getting on the inside or against pressure fighters like Iran Barkley. But when put against outside fighters ex. Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Roy Jones. James Toney has a tendency to lose rounds and forced to knock them out in order to win the fight. If Mayweather was put against these fighters Toney faced, then he would still have the luxury of winning on the scorecards.
+iron man (ironman3647) First of all FLOYD is HUMAN! A prime ROY knocks him out early! TOO BIG and too strong! Actually the same goes for ALL the guys you mentioned. Floyd being undefeated means nothing more than he beat the fighters he beat. For people who claim to know boxing and still get caught up into believing a 150 pound 5'7 fighter, no matter how good can beat other greats with superior or equal skills is why boxing suffers today from a cult of personality. Floyd's style is much more basic and limited than james'. James' style allowed him to move up to heavyweight and win! For Floyd to match that, he would have to move up to 168 and win with no catch weight. Floyd could never do that because he has a blocking style that would not allow him to take the bombs of a real 168. Lastly, Floyd fans typically forget the guy was out on his feet against Maidana and Shane! With that, you talk of him beating a prime roy! LOL. Lastly, FLOYD DOES NOT have the option to KO fighters! That is why he is not as skilled as a prime toney.
+iron man (ironman3647) YOU think 150 pound Floyd beats a prime sharp shooting Roy and you say MY knowledge is off! Bro, idol worship has no place in boxing. Next, It's easy to say someone is WAY OFF. That means nothing. Again, FLOYD was hit by an old shane and wild maidana and was out on his feet! A bomb throughing ROY JONES knocks his head into the thrid row! Next, I said James moved up to heavy! That is a 40 pound gain! Floyd could never move up and fight stevenson at 168 and win! Learn to think boxing and not idol worship then talk boxing.
Im not saying anything else but that ur boxing knowledge is wayyyy off, and I'm going to leave it at that for the simple fact that I really don't have time for idiots like u. Good day sir
@theshaolinghost Thank you for the question, The peek a boo style is useful because of the tight arm positioning (hands up high, elbows in). It is not a style however that lends itself to being endlessly defensive. The best way to use it is "slip and fire". People get their emotions involved (like the person who gave this video a thumbs down lol), the truth of the matter is for the "peek a boo" style, no one did it better than Iron Mike in his prime.
right and exact assessment. toney would stand In The Box, with his opponent. Mayweather have the Illusion, of standing In the Box, but Floyd was still very effective with his offense, from his 'out' position. brilliant analysis!
@AtSkiy1987 I should thank you and I do. I was asked sometime ago to post some videos by a young man from the Philippines who, like I, was 5'7. He was 150 pounds to my 200, but I know what it is like to be bullied since I was till I was 13. At that time (for reasons I will keep to myself), society did not think us minorities could use the help to fight the effects of being bullied. Today, I try to help while being entertaining if possible. Thank you again, from the heart. Sayf
I remember one of your videos on Rocky Marciano. I watched a bunch of clips from his fights in slow motion, and was really struck by how slick a fighter the Rock really was. Really slowing down the footage, I even notice that he uses the shoulder roll pretty frequently in his fights, but he normally weaves into his lunging left hook off of it. His counters and combinations weren't something I was used to seeing, so it was really easy to miss at normal speed. James Toney talks at length about Rocky Marciano quite a bit and I now see MANY striking similarities in their approach to boxing. Cleary there are plenty of major differences as well. After seeing this however, I now find it pretty amusing that Michigan fighters often refer to their versions of the classic Lean and parry, shoulder roll style as the Detroit 'Rock'. Lol However, I especially see huge influences from Henry Armstrong on Toney's style. Particularly his use of the rising "up jab" from the low lead hand position as it's known, paired with his use of a long lunging left hook, and especially his use of head movement and head positioning in the pocket. Floyd seems to lack either the knowledge, or the confidence to implement these skills from these older fighters on the inside, and I strongly suspect that's why he relies so heavily on prying at his opponents' faces with his gloves, forearms and elbows in the pocket. He pretty frequently leaves his head straight up in the air when trying to punch or defend in the pocket, needlessly gifting shots to his head. Which is something earlier fighters from the previous eras I mentioned would never do. It makes me find it pretty laughable that so many try to portray him as the greatest defensive fighter of all time.
Hunter Kelley: Great comment, but yes, Floyd IS a great defensive fighter. He also fought many people who were naturally bigger and still managed to dominate them. That said, James Toney was better, as was Loche. My issue with Floyd was his ducking of Manny and being Useless to black people who could have used a better role model.
@@TheUmmahFightCamp I agree, materialism today is doing a lot of harm to every culture in America. It even seems like more and more of the older generations aren't as aware of it's growing influence on peoples' behaviours as they used to be.
Hunter Kelley: Man please! LOL. The older generations are trying to regain their youth at the cost of their dignity smh. I see it everyday. From the clothes to the music, people show they are afraid to grow up.
I used to comment and argue with people like you, but since I do not have the time, I will only say that I would gladly give you that chance to say to my face what you said here.
After dealing with people who rather than think, want to disagree for the "sport" of it, I should thank you lol! Thanks for your comment and compliment.
It has nothing to do with Philly shell, but with defence and reflexes: what is your opinion on the great Niccolino Loche? For me he is one of the best defensive fighters ever and possibly the one with the quickest reflexes evr. Great vids btw, thanks. I was born in the 70s, grew up in the 80s, miss that era. Hagler, Don Curry etc. PS. Dont forget Jersey Joe Walcott when you talk about philly shell. One of the originators.
@250DollarsPC Thanks for the question. James had/has a defense that I call "the Armadillo". he does not care how it looks as long as you don't hit him. Picture an armadillo and another animal trying to find an opening. That is James. Even as a old man, he loses on his feet to the Russian who knocked out R. Jones. 2 things:1) Manny moves around James looking for an opening that is not there and 2) Don't forget James's "Pull Right Hand"! He puts Manny down with it if not out.
Great Vid, sharing with some friends for sure. Agree 100% on Tyson. I feel like his center of gravity gave him an edge sometimes, just a really stout dude. But when you see him slip all those shots.....you see how fast he was!!
When I say "No one compared to Ali" I am talking about a fighter who transcended his division. When you say he was not "the slickest fighter", his opponents would disagree! He was very slick! Pulling back from an opponent's punch by an inch and throwing a right hand over top is most slick! Now Joe Frazier was not slick! Now, back to "transcend". When I think of Ali, I think of a fighter who was clearly the greatest of his division in history! He beats every heavyweight up till today by dec or
I didnt know about George Benton untill you mentioned his name.. had to go look him up. he was a true master of the game.. he also trained pernel, hollyfield and merdrick taylor.. thanks sayf
A man is said to avoid a fighter when he DOES NOT fight him. If he could have beat him does not matter if he was not willing to take a chance. Thomas Hearns was 6'2 and looked like a heavyweight! SRL did not ask him to take special tests to avoid fighting him. The real point is, OTHER FIGHTERS fought MANNY. They had the courage to do so!
@TheUmmahFightCamp Thnx for your response my good dood. I really enjoy watching all of your videos. Im just starting to get into boxing. Ive been following Muay Thai, Kickboxing, and MMA for the longest time. James Toney going into MMA actually infuenced me to follow boxing. Any fight fanatic, regardless of the genre, has to respect James Toney's defensive skills. I do have another question. I'll post it on the next paragraph because Im running out of characters.
Hard to say really! Very unique though, A style not seen often. Done want to compare just yet, but his ability to say composed brings to mind the great Salvador Sanchez. Not there yet though and may never be, but.....
Yes, he uses his elbows, but I used to also lol. That I do not find fought with since the ref wont stop it and it is a defensive move that veterans use.
I live in a town where everyone has a lot of mouth, but little heart so it is hard to find people to train with even at 51 years of age. My teaching is too hard for most also. The result is that I have to wait for only a few people to come to my training area so I can post a full video where footwork is seen. I will do them every 2 weeks.
2) To the person who is not in front of James, "he is there to be hit". In truth, James sparred better better fighters in the Kronk Gym than Floyd did in his career and James beat them up.
Toney is top 50 defensive fighter of all time. I meant to say, I parry or catch the left and block the right. since I am naturally a south paw, I do the opposite also at times lol.
The catch weight has been used as an excuse for Floyd's refusal to fight Manny and to take something away from Manny's legacy, but here are the facts: 1) Some of the greatest fighters in history fought at catch weights and WON. 2) Manny fought Oscar at 147 and beat him worse than Floyd who won only a SD. 3)Manny fought Hatton at 140 and beat him worse than Floyd. 4) Fighters of ALL disciplines drop weight and WIN. Some UFC fighters drop as much as 20 pounds. A fighter who regularly fights at
Do you feel that the peek a boo style is an effective style for defense and getting in the in side if you are a small fighter or certain parts of that style are good for teaching all fighters such as the maize bag. What are some of the downsides to the peek a boo style
i would say that James Toney used his shoulder roll to convert to offense. Mayweather has weak hands so he has to pick and choose the punches he throws. As in Mayweather has a number set in his mind what he will land and throw. So Mayweather makes his opponent miss more and makes you pay and reset, while Toney will roll shoot roll shoot.
dacariice19 Good point. I’d argue Mayweather fought easier than Toney, and was less tested. No flashy shit, no flamboyance, no risks in the ring from Mayweather, whereas Toney was less inhibited than Mayweather in “letting go.”
Since I came up in the 70s n therefore SAW how boxing was in the entire 80s, I will say the following things: 1) It has ALWAYS been about money so the excuses made for Floyd do not fly! SRL was one of the toughest people to deal with on the money issue! Marvin Hagler had an attorney who almost priced him out of fights! 2) ALL athletes want as much money as they can get n always try 2 get it! 3) Sugar Ray Robinson wanted first class plane tickets for his BARBER! He was his OWN manager in the 50s!
@TheUmmahFightCamp I know James Toney is way bigger than Manny, even when James was at his lowest weight fighting but do you think James Toney can dodge most of Manny's punches within the pocket range? Given they were the same height and weight. Most fighters would just move to the side and try to gain distance but based on your knowledge of the fight game, do you think James could dodge, slip in and out of Manny's barage of punches? I think he could. thnx for your answer
2) Take some time to come see NY and stop in at my place! Just ONE round and we will post the results LIVE!!! If you are just going to comment and not gear up, stick with looking at old UFC fights and dreaming.
Nice video, thanks. About slipping, you still see so many pros give a tel'. Some tels are very slight and some are obvious. IMHO, I think good slippers are not totally natural, but they trained themselves to look for tels most others miss. Ring fights, unlike street fights, give a chance to study the opponent. I think Ali and others had a "gift" of acute observation they honed of tels . Oh yes, the "hip lean" to get in fast. Love it. Thanks man.
@250DollarsPC let me say that Floyd is a good fighter. He is a small man and should not be blamed because people cannot put him away. I even pick him to beat Manny. That said, James is in a class by himself and never has gotten his due. Lastly, James sparred his way into shape!!!! He does not even like hitting the speed bag. My job is to hit the points most do not. Thank you for the comment.
This is a good video, in the beginning however, you said you block a right hand with your hand and left hand with your shoulder. I've been studying Toney. and I never knew he's such an amazing boxer. I thought he was a brawler type, but I was totally wrong. Counterpuncher, in-fighters, and outboxer which makes him lethal.
2) Manny said ON LIVE TV that he would take the 60/40 split AND the test! Mayweather said nothing! Next, if you want to see a record, look at Oscar Dela hoya!!!!!!! WIN OR LOSE, that is a record.
As I said, YOU talk behind a keyboard!!!! If you don't have the courage to come to my town and prove I am not as advertised, keep trying on panties on the slide and shut up! It is really very simple sir!!! YOU have a bone to pick with ME! How better to do that than come and try your luck???? I am from the old school which is to say, things should be simple as possible. I am 51 and only 5'7. Surely the odds are in your favor!!!! Okay, there you have it. No more going back and forth.
do you think you can do a vid on the difference between hitman hearns mayweather and toney? i think hearns was way more aggresive with the mechanic personaly
I agree. But floyd defense also depended a lot on smothering punches when Fighters tried to throw combination to get in on Him. I think James was a better natural slipper also Duran good natural slipping head movement but Floyd is probably a smarter Defender because he Focus on it more by the way I love your Channel great knowledge for Fighters and coaches
@theshaolinghost 2) Also, if a person is a smaller fighter, they should put on as much weight as possible that will allow for fighting. From the peek a boo you take blows on your arms so you want to develop them. Take my word for it, look at Mike Tyson and slow down the video when possible to pick up the small aspects of the "peek a boo". Don't get the "like him" or "not like him" involved. Just study. Hope it helps.
I would not say Floyd was the smarter fighter due to style. He may be smart for avoiding Pac in his prime however. As for James' style and hand speed, Toney has had a long career and during that time he has fought some very fast fighters who looked stupid trying to hit him. Many only see the knockdown Roy scored against him, but a prime Roy missed badly against an out of shape Toney. Toney has a style that is not understood unless you are in front of him, like Ali's style (James is NOT Ali lol)
@TheUmmahFightCamp they're usually the ones that are wrong though, you speak with a lot of knowledge. Do you think Mayweather uses his elbows too much? i feel like when people charge at him he goes into the shell and sticks his elbow out so they go into it. he also uses them to push people away from the fights ive seen
I do not think you want to go with the "He is undefeated, therefore he is the best" thing lol. That has been done before by Joe Calzaghe AND Rocky Marciano! Whilst, Joe could be the best super middle, almost no one thinks Rocky was the best heavyweight. Also, an undefeated record can be had by anyone depending on the competition.
Loche was smooth, yes. Too bad he didnt have any KO power, only 14 KOs in 136 fights (just 4 losses). Interesting to see different types of defence. Those w reflexes like Loche/W.Benitez, slick guys like Whitaker/C.Byrd, those with footwork like Benny Leonard/W.Pep, coming forward-parrying-shots like Duran/J.C.Chavez/Langford, and the shell guys like Toney/May. Mayweather and Toney are in the same category but still have different types of the same style of defence. The many facets of boxing!
Obviously you don't know crap about fighting if you think "fighting professionally" is the ultimate proof that someone can fight lol. Since I have been actually kicking ass for 40 years, I can tell you that I have beaten pros as bad as I would beat you if you had the courage to come to New Jersey and glove up. As for questioning MY manhood, YOU are the one talking from the comfort of your home! I am available for ANYONE to go a round with me! Do you have vacation time coming from your job????
Hey buddy!!!! I have been to embarrassed to contact you since I have dragged my feet on getting that to you. It was a gracious invitation that I did not take lightly, but I have been so busy working on other things and as I said, it is about 7 pages long lol. Please leave the invitation open and I will get it to you. Personally, I do not like at all the cross arm defense lol. Impairs vision and leaves taller people open for body shots. Foreman had much "gurth" on his midsection so could
We traditional skins are a multiracial bunch. The wikipedia entry for skinhead is actually pretty good and unbiased. Look up old reggae stars like Laurel Aitken and Symarip, or just youtube "skinhead reggae" you might find some great old music that you'll love.
***** I don't have to reseach, I DO IT! The crab is NOT a style, it is ONE way of defending and the arms are crossed. Frazier used the crab when defending as did Norton. Learn boxing from other than a used magazine and get back to me.
***** I don't care how long your dad has boxed since I've done and taught it for over 40 years. You can tell him this: FIGHTERS DO NOT WALK INTO THE GYM and name philly shell, crab or whatever in order to start boxing. Next, if you are tired of hearing what I say DON'T COME TO OUR FORUMS. You people kill me with that! You talk smack but still tune in and comment. Lastly, PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT NAMES for the SAME position. If you listened you would have heard me say that.
Real fighters know James Toney has a better defense than Floyd. Rarely will you see James Toney clinch when hes in the pocket. Even when he fought Dennis Lebedev with a fucked up knee and when Dennis came close, he didnt even clinch. Floyd's defense is overrated. Real boxing analysis will tell you James Toneys defense is better than Floyds. I watch some of Jame's old vids and Im like how was he able to see those combos coming? But you explained it. He sensed it. Great video. Pay Homage to James.
I would also like to add, that Floyd is the overall smarter fighter defensively, that style that James toney use will get a persons ass whipped by someone with the hand speed of a Gary Russle Jr, zap judah or manny pacquiao.
Floyd depends on his athleticism. But James is pure skill.Also James didnt care who he fought next, He fought the best and newer ducked nobody. Another contrast is that...James fought in a tough era. Floyd fights in a weak era and thus he was newer tested. As for Philly Shell...Its just some stuped name thay the Mayweaters came up whit.Suposedly they created a invincible style.The truth is that fighter used it since long time.Back in the 30, s.
Pernell trainer was the great George Benten, Toney studied tapes of Ezzard Charles, great Philly shell technicans of the sweet science....Toney fought in the pocket a lot so even evading most of the punches he was still getting hit , that plus all the sparring he did ( as he never did roadwork) caused the brain damage ......Floyd doesnt take these chances ,
"You do not think Floyd Ducked anyone who did not DESERVE ducking"!!!!! NO ONE deserves ducking if they are in their prime and a challenge! I have put Floyd's record for all to see and he has done virtually nothing to warrant his and his fan's claims. EVERY ONE he has fought another man beat worse! JMM was MADE for him and was naturally smaller. As for that tired test thing! NO!!!! EVERYONE else fought Manny without asking for the test! Some even beat him, so Floyd is more coward than brave.
I understand, but boxing is not a "moral" sport :-). Head buts, no! An elbow as a blow, no! To push back, many greats have used it and I would smile if I saw u do it too. It is a veteran's tool.
Thanks for explaining in detail how James Toney dodges punches without moving out of punching range.
Hey Sayf, if you ever get a chance to break down cross arm defense like Frazier or a later Foreman I would love to see a video on that. It was something I was not taught and never used. I also had a few requests for it on my channel.
James is the master at it .Period
No doubt all day!!!
I'm a Mexican American 46 year old volunteer boxing coach in the inner citiy of Milwaukee Wisconsin. Working with Young kids, teenagers and young adults. I'm one of your biggest fan. I learned a lot by watching your videos. Thank you for taking the time To share your knowledge with everyone and I know some don't appreciate it but I appreciate it 100% and I Incorporated in my teachings at the boxing gym. More power to you brotha!
Actually James Toney At Middleweight DID not avoid anyone. His resume at Middle is better than Floyd's at welter. People forget the Toney legacy at Middle. As for Floyd being "smarter", you have to proof that. Him avoiding certain fighters maybe, but smarter, no. as for evading punches, Floyd does not EVADE, he blocks! James EVADES since he slips.
Arnold Cream (jersey Joe Walcott) used the PS, but used it while he was doing other maneuvers like the "shift walk" btw, done by James Toney often.
There is nothing in Floyd's methods that says he is smarter unless you are talking about picking his fights. James lasted this long without taking a beating because his is VERY smart.
hey Sayf!! :) oh don't worry about that, trust me I know exactly how it is, the door is open anytime, even if it's years from now lol. Thanks for your insight on cross arm blocking. I've especially liked some of your latest vids. thanks, talk soon.
Toney can roll with both shoulders..
And also i want to say that Duran is a master shoulderroll.
Bless ❤
Toney is an all time great defensive genius who rubbed people the wrong way. As a result he is not given his due.
Loche? Hands down up there with Pernell, Benitez .....Smooth. Actually Martinez TRIES to copy him, but most people have never heard of Nicky, so they do not catch on lol
As for me lashing out at people, let me say this: WHERE I COME FROM, MEN EITHER FIGHT OR THEY DON'T!!!! IF ANYONE THINKS I AM A FRAUD, I WILL GO A ROUND WITH THEM! I am doing what MEN do! what do YOU do other than talk from behind a keyboard? At 51 I am willing to back up what I say! THAT IS A MAN! YOU put your fists where your mouth is or shut up "Lady"!
Well, thank you very much lol. Welcome and I will be posting on many different topics in the future (GW). Thanks for your support.
Thank you much sir! Thank you for your support.
James Toney is the man. One of my fav fighters🔥
No diss to Floyd, but James was smoother with it, and was much more aggressive and adept at throwing combinations. Just a smoother, more exciting fighter.
That's why he can barely talk now, right? Y'all are tripping with this one.
Great vid, great breakdown. I knew you were going to mention Sweet Pea as soon as you spoke about having senses.
@250DollarsPC 2) The strength of James Toney was his composure under fire. Many people tried to take his head off from the start, but ended up winded and beaten (see him vs Barkley).
Thank you friend! Most people just don't "get it". Glad you do. Be well, Sayf
i think both Mayweather and Toney are great defensive masters regardless of technical variations especially on the inside. Toney relies more on his head movement slipping punches, Mayweather can do the same but relies more on blocking punches. Both rely on some degree of athleticism. But i see more versatility in Mayweather's game with better ring generalship, which is why i say he's a better fighter. Not taking anything away from Toney but his whole game is almost solely based on getting on the inside or against pressure fighters like Iran Barkley. But when put against outside fighters ex. Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Roy Jones. James Toney has a tendency to lose rounds and forced to knock them out in order to win the fight. If Mayweather was put against these fighters Toney faced, then he would still have the luxury of winning on the scorecards.
.
+iron man (ironman3647) First of all FLOYD is HUMAN! A prime ROY knocks him out early! TOO BIG and too strong! Actually the same goes for ALL the guys you mentioned. Floyd being undefeated means nothing more than he beat the fighters he beat. For people who claim to know boxing and still get caught up into believing a 150 pound 5'7 fighter, no matter how good can beat other greats with superior or equal skills is why boxing suffers today from a cult of personality. Floyd's style is much more basic and limited than james'. James' style allowed him to move up to heavyweight and win! For Floyd to match that, he would have to move up to 168 and win with no catch weight. Floyd could never do that because he has a blocking style that would not allow him to take the bombs of a real 168. Lastly, Floyd fans typically forget the guy was out on his feet against Maidana and Shane! With that, you talk of him beating a prime roy! LOL. Lastly, FLOYD DOES NOT have the option to KO fighters! That is why he is not as skilled as a prime toney.
Man ur boxing knowledge is waaaayyyy off...
+iron man (ironman3647) YOU think 150 pound Floyd beats a prime sharp shooting Roy and you say MY knowledge is off! Bro, idol worship has no place in boxing. Next, It's easy to say someone is WAY OFF. That means nothing. Again, FLOYD was hit by an old shane and wild maidana and was out on his feet! A bomb throughing ROY JONES knocks his head into the thrid row! Next, I said James moved up to heavy! That is a 40 pound gain! Floyd could never move up and fight stevenson at 168 and win! Learn to think boxing and not idol worship then talk boxing.
Im not saying anything else but that ur boxing knowledge is wayyyy off, and I'm going to leave it at that for the simple fact that I really don't have time for idiots like u. Good day sir
@theshaolinghost Thank you for the question, The peek a boo style is useful because of the tight arm positioning (hands up high, elbows in). It is not a style however that lends itself to being endlessly defensive. The best way to use it is "slip and fire". People get their emotions involved (like the person who gave this video a thumbs down lol), the truth of the matter is for the "peek a boo" style, no one did it better than Iron Mike in his prime.
right and exact assessment.
toney would stand In The Box, with his opponent.
Mayweather have the Illusion, of standing In the Box, but Floyd was still very effective with his offense, from his 'out' position.
brilliant analysis!
I enjoy your vids. They're real. Keep these types of vids man.
@AtSkiy1987 I should thank you and I do. I was asked sometime ago to post some videos by a young man from the Philippines who, like I, was 5'7. He was 150 pounds to my 200, but I know what it is like to be bullied since I was till I was 13. At that time (for reasons I will keep to myself), society did not think us minorities could use the help to fight the effects of being bullied. Today, I try to help while being entertaining if possible. Thank you again, from the heart. Sayf
I remember one of your videos on Rocky Marciano.
I watched a bunch of clips from his fights in slow motion, and was really struck by how slick a fighter the Rock really was.
Really slowing down the footage, I even notice that he uses the shoulder roll pretty frequently in his fights, but he normally weaves into his lunging left hook off of it.
His counters and combinations weren't something I was used to seeing, so it was really easy to miss at normal speed.
James Toney talks at length about Rocky Marciano quite a bit and I now see MANY striking similarities in their approach to boxing.
Cleary there are plenty of major differences as well.
After seeing this however, I now find it pretty amusing that Michigan fighters often refer to their versions of the classic Lean and parry, shoulder roll style as the Detroit 'Rock'. Lol
However, I especially see huge influences from Henry Armstrong on Toney's style. Particularly his use of the rising "up jab" from the low lead hand position as it's known, paired with his use of a long lunging left hook, and especially his use of head movement and head positioning in the pocket.
Floyd seems to lack either the knowledge, or the confidence to implement these skills from these older fighters on the inside, and I strongly suspect that's why he relies so heavily on prying at his opponents' faces with his gloves, forearms and elbows in the pocket.
He pretty frequently leaves his head straight up in the air when trying to punch or defend in the pocket, needlessly gifting shots to his head.
Which is something earlier fighters from the previous eras I mentioned would never do.
It makes me find it pretty laughable that so many try to portray him as the greatest defensive fighter of all time.
Hunter Kelley: Great comment, but yes, Floyd IS a great defensive fighter. He also fought many people who were naturally bigger and still managed to dominate them. That said, James Toney was better, as was Loche. My issue with Floyd was his ducking of Manny and being Useless to black people who could have used a better role model.
@@TheUmmahFightCamp
I agree, materialism today is doing a lot of harm to every culture in America.
It even seems like more and more of the older generations aren't as aware of it's growing influence on peoples' behaviours as they used to be.
Hunter Kelley: Man please! LOL. The older generations are trying to regain their youth at the cost of their dignity smh. I see it everyday. From the clothes to the music, people show they are afraid to grow up.
I used to comment and argue with people like you, but since I do not have the time, I will only say that I would gladly give you that chance to say to my face what you said here.
After dealing with people who rather than think, want to disagree for the "sport" of it, I should thank you lol! Thanks for your comment and compliment.
I just found your channel and I must tell you that these videos are great. I love to hear someone knowledgeable talk boxing theory.
Thank you so much! I am not always right, but I do hate it when people do not even try to consider they may be wrong.
No, thank you! You are the kind of people I take pride in having in the forums.
It has nothing to do with Philly shell, but with defence and reflexes: what is your opinion on the great Niccolino Loche? For me he is one of the best defensive fighters ever and possibly the one with the quickest reflexes evr.
Great vids btw, thanks. I was born in the 70s, grew up in the 80s, miss that era. Hagler, Don Curry etc.
PS. Dont forget Jersey Joe Walcott when you talk about philly shell. One of the originators.
Oh, you too brotha. I like realness in vids. The vids don't have to be fancy anyway man, they're great the way they are.
@250DollarsPC Thanks for the question. James had/has a defense that I call "the Armadillo". he does not care how it looks as long as you don't hit him. Picture an armadillo and another animal trying to find an opening. That is James. Even as a old man, he loses on his feet to the Russian who knocked out R. Jones. 2 things:1) Manny moves around James looking for an opening that is not there and 2) Don't forget James's "Pull Right Hand"! He puts Manny down with it if not out.
Great Vid, sharing with some friends for sure. Agree 100% on Tyson. I feel like his center of gravity gave him an edge sometimes, just a really stout dude. But when you see him slip all those shots.....you see how fast he was!!
When I say "No one compared to Ali" I am talking about a fighter who transcended his division. When you say he was not "the slickest fighter", his opponents would disagree! He was very slick! Pulling back from an opponent's punch by an inch and throwing a right hand over top is most slick! Now Joe Frazier was not slick! Now, back to "transcend". When I think of Ali, I think of a fighter who was clearly the greatest of his division in history! He beats every heavyweight up till today by dec or
the fight against michael nunn is a great example that comes to mind
Everything you have said is completely true, I agree with this video 100%. Thanks for uploading!
2) Of course, I believe in developing both sides as much as possible.
Actually a guy named Oba Carr. Steward said Oba was his most talented fighter.
Thank you very much! My vids are not fancy nor full of exotic moves (they don't work anyway lol), but they come from real experience. Be well.
heads up for the oba car, and gerogie benton
Thanks Aki! Some people get it, some don't. Obviously you do. That is a good thing.
I didnt know about George Benton untill you mentioned his name.. had to go look him up. he was a true master of the game.. he also trained pernel, hollyfield and merdrick taylor..
thanks sayf
A man is said to avoid a fighter when he DOES NOT fight him. If he could have beat him does not matter if he was not willing to take a chance. Thomas Hearns was 6'2 and looked like a heavyweight! SRL did not ask him to take special tests to avoid fighting him. The real point is, OTHER FIGHTERS fought MANNY. They had the courage to do so!
Canelo and tank have that sense.
@TheUmmahFightCamp Thnx for your response my good dood. I really enjoy watching all of your videos. Im just starting to get into boxing. Ive been following Muay Thai, Kickboxing, and MMA for the longest time. James Toney going into MMA actually infuenced me to follow boxing. Any fight fanatic, regardless of the genre, has to respect James Toney's defensive skills. I do have another question. I'll post it on the next paragraph because Im running out of characters.
Hard to say really! Very unique though, A style not seen often. Done want to compare just yet, but his ability to say composed brings to mind the great Salvador Sanchez. Not there yet though and may never be, but.....
Yes, he uses his elbows, but I used to also lol. That I do not find fought with since the ref wont stop it and it is a defensive move that veterans use.
I live in a town where everyone has a lot of mouth, but little heart so it is hard to find people to train with even at 51 years of age. My teaching is too hard for most also. The result is that I have to wait for only a few people to come to my training area so I can post a full video where footwork is seen. I will do them every 2 weeks.
2) To the person who is not in front of James, "he is there to be hit". In truth, James sparred better better fighters in the Kronk Gym than Floyd did in his career and James beat them up.
Blessing! 🙏🏽
Ye, man! I wont repeat what he said. It irritated me though and believe it or not, I do not comment often like I did, not even to FM groupies. lol
This is a good video brotha props
Jts defence to offence is the best the boxing world as ever seen period.
Toney is top 50 defensive fighter of all time. I meant to say, I parry or catch the left and block the right. since I am naturally a south paw, I do the opposite also at times lol.
The catch weight has been used as an excuse for Floyd's refusal to fight Manny and to take something away from Manny's legacy, but here are the facts: 1) Some of the greatest fighters in history fought at catch weights and WON. 2) Manny fought Oscar at 147 and beat him worse than Floyd who won only a SD. 3)Manny fought Hatton at 140 and beat him worse than Floyd. 4) Fighters of ALL disciplines drop weight and WIN. Some UFC fighters drop as much as 20 pounds. A fighter who regularly fights at
Do you feel that the peek a boo style is an effective style for defense and getting in the in side if you are a small fighter or certain parts of that style are good for teaching all fighters such as the maize bag. What are some of the downsides to the peek a boo style
i would say that James Toney used his shoulder roll to convert to offense. Mayweather has weak hands so he has to pick and choose the punches he throws. As in Mayweather has a number set in his mind what he will land and throw. So Mayweather makes his opponent miss more and makes you pay and reset, while Toney will roll shoot roll shoot.
dacariice19 Good point. I’d argue Mayweather fought easier than Toney, and was less tested. No flashy shit, no flamboyance, no risks in the ring from Mayweather, whereas Toney was less inhibited than Mayweather in “letting go.”
Thanks for turning me on to Toney. I only knew him from that ridiculous MMA fight.
Since I came up in the 70s n therefore SAW how boxing was in the entire 80s, I will say the following things: 1) It has ALWAYS been about money so the excuses made for Floyd do not fly! SRL was one of the toughest people to deal with on the money issue! Marvin Hagler had an attorney who almost priced him out of fights! 2) ALL athletes want as much money as they can get n always try 2 get it! 3) Sugar Ray Robinson wanted first class plane tickets for his BARBER! He was his OWN manager in the 50s!
Interesting. Well, welcome. Hope you benefit from the videos.
@TheUmmahFightCamp I know James Toney is way bigger than Manny, even when James was at his lowest weight fighting but do you think James Toney can dodge most of Manny's punches within the pocket range? Given they were the same height and weight. Most fighters would just move to the side and try to gain distance but based on your knowledge of the fight game, do you think James could dodge, slip in and out of Manny's barage of punches? I think he could. thnx for your answer
OBA CARR. A very slick fighter, just could not get over the top.
2) Take some time to come see NY and stop in at my place! Just ONE round and we will post the results LIVE!!! If you are just going to comment and not gear up, stick with looking at old UFC fights and dreaming.
I think you are a million percent right
I'm taking notes...
And I'm coming soon.
Stay tuned
H
Nice video, thanks. About slipping, you still see so many pros give a tel'. Some tels are very slight and some are obvious. IMHO, I think good slippers are not totally natural, but they trained themselves to look for tels most others miss. Ring fights, unlike street fights, give a chance to study the opponent. I think Ali and others had a "gift" of acute observation they honed of tels . Oh yes, the "hip lean" to get in fast. Love it. Thanks man.
Wa Alaikum Salaam Habibi! May Allah make me as good of a Muslim as you believe me to be. Amin.
What do u think about Adrien Broner's philly shell and how can he make it better?
@250DollarsPC let me say that Floyd is a good fighter. He is a small man and should not be blamed because people cannot put him away. I even pick him to beat Manny. That said, James is in a class by himself and never has gotten his due. Lastly, James sparred his way into shape!!!! He does not even like hitting the speed bag. My job is to hit the points most do not. Thank you for the comment.
2) 147 can fight at 145. Floyd started his career 5 divisions higher than manny. Floyd had NO REASON to fight at a catch weight.
This is a good video, in the beginning however, you said you block a right hand with your hand and left hand with your shoulder.
I've been studying Toney. and I never knew he's such an amazing boxer. I thought he was a brawler type, but I was totally wrong. Counterpuncher, in-fighters, and outboxer which makes him lethal.
2) Manny said ON LIVE TV that he would take the 60/40 split AND the test! Mayweather said nothing! Next, if you want to see a record, look at Oscar Dela hoya!!!!!!! WIN OR LOSE, that is a record.
As I said, YOU talk behind a keyboard!!!! If you don't have the courage to come to my town and prove I am not as advertised, keep trying on panties on the slide and shut up! It is really very simple sir!!! YOU have a bone to pick with ME! How better to do that than come and try your luck???? I am from the old school which is to say, things should be simple as possible. I am 51 and only 5'7. Surely the odds are in your favor!!!! Okay, there you have it. No more going back and forth.
do you think you can do a vid on the difference between hitman hearns mayweather and toney? i think hearns was way more aggresive with the mechanic personaly
I agree. But floyd defense also depended a lot on smothering punches when Fighters tried to throw combination to get in on Him. I think James was a better natural slipper also Duran good natural slipping head movement but Floyd is probably a smarter Defender because he Focus on it more by the way I love your Channel great knowledge for Fighters and coaches
Good fighter, but lack of sound basics hurt him later.
@theshaolinghost 2) Also, if a person is a smaller fighter, they should put on as much weight as possible that will allow for fighting. From the peek a boo you take blows on your arms so you want to develop them. Take my word for it, look at Mike Tyson and slow down the video when possible to pick up the small aspects of the "peek a boo". Don't get the "like him" or "not like him" involved. Just study. Hope it helps.
I would not say Floyd was the smarter fighter due to style. He may be smart for avoiding Pac in his prime however. As for James' style and hand speed, Toney has had a long career and during that time he has fought some very fast fighters who looked stupid trying to hit him. Many only see the knockdown Roy scored against him, but a prime Roy missed badly against an out of shape Toney. Toney has a style that is not understood unless you are in front of him, like Ali's style (James is NOT Ali lol)
2) of little Floyd!!! If you think Floyd thought Manny was on drugs, he would have retired before he fought Thomas Hearns!!!!
Nice explanation.
@TheUmmahFightCamp they're usually the ones that are wrong though, you speak with a lot of knowledge. Do you think Mayweather uses his elbows too much? i feel like when people charge at him he goes into the shell and sticks his elbow out so they go into it. he also uses them to push people away from the fights ive seen
google this video "Floyd Mayweather demonstrates his boxing defensive skills"
i think floyd shows his variation of the shoulder roll
I do not think you want to go with the "He is undefeated, therefore he is the best" thing lol. That has been done before by Joe Calzaghe AND Rocky Marciano! Whilst, Joe could be the best super middle, almost no one thinks Rocky was the best heavyweight. Also, an undefeated record can be had by anyone depending on the competition.
Loche was smooth, yes. Too bad he didnt have any KO power, only 14 KOs in 136 fights (just 4 losses). Interesting to see different types of defence. Those w reflexes like Loche/W.Benitez, slick guys like Whitaker/C.Byrd, those with footwork like Benny Leonard/W.Pep, coming forward-parrying-shots like Duran/J.C.Chavez/Langford, and the shell guys like Toney/May. Mayweather and Toney are in the same category but still have different types of the same style of defence. The many facets of boxing!
Obviously you don't know crap about fighting if you think "fighting professionally" is the ultimate proof that someone can fight lol. Since I have been actually kicking ass for 40 years, I can tell you that I have beaten pros as bad as I would beat you if you had the courage to come to New Jersey and glove up. As for questioning MY manhood, YOU are the one talking from the comfort of your home! I am available for ANYONE to go a round with me! Do you have vacation time coming from your job????
It's the Detroit Box defense.
Hey buddy!!!! I have been to embarrassed to contact you since I have dragged my feet on getting that to you. It was a gracious invitation that I did not take lightly, but I have been so busy working on other things and as I said, it is about 7 pages long lol. Please leave the invitation open and I will get it to you. Personally, I do not like at all the cross arm defense lol. Impairs vision and leaves taller people open for body shots. Foreman had much "gurth" on his midsection so could
Hearns was aggressive, but he could be caught while overly so.
We traditional skins are a multiracial bunch. The wikipedia entry for skinhead is actually pretty good and unbiased. Look up old reggae stars like Laurel Aitken and Symarip, or just youtube "skinhead reggae" you might find some great old music that you'll love.
Iv'e seen Floyd do both great videos keep up the great work peace
My point was that Floyd's is BLOCK based and James' is not. Exceptions can be seen however during a fight when a fighter MUST to something.
*****
I don't have to reseach, I DO IT! The crab is NOT a style, it is ONE way of defending and the arms are crossed. Frazier used the crab when defending as did Norton. Learn boxing from other than a used magazine and get back to me.
***** I don't care how long your dad has boxed since I've done and taught it for over 40 years. You can tell him this: FIGHTERS DO NOT WALK INTO THE GYM and name philly shell, crab or whatever in order to start boxing. Next, if you are tired of hearing what I say DON'T COME TO OUR FORUMS. You people kill me with that! You talk smack but still tune in and comment. Lastly, PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT NAMES for the SAME position. If you listened you would have heard me say that.
Real fighters know James Toney has a better defense than Floyd. Rarely will you see James Toney clinch when hes in the pocket. Even when he fought Dennis Lebedev with a fucked up knee and when Dennis came close, he didnt even clinch. Floyd's defense is overrated. Real boxing analysis will tell you James Toneys defense is better than Floyds. I watch some of Jame's old vids and Im like how was he able to see those combos coming? But you explained it. He sensed it. Great video. Pay Homage to James.
James Toney calls it Detroit Woab
who did you say emanuel steward said was his best fighter? couldn't quite catch it sorry.
I would also like to add, that Floyd is the overall smarter fighter defensively, that style that James toney use will get a persons ass whipped by someone with the hand speed of a Gary Russle Jr, zap judah or manny pacquiao.
Floyd depends on his athleticism. But James is pure skill.Also James didnt care who he fought next, He fought the best and newer ducked nobody.
Another contrast is that...James fought in a tough era.
Floyd fights in a weak era and thus he was newer tested.
As for Philly Shell...Its just some stuped name thay the Mayweaters came up whit.Suposedly they created a invincible style.The truth is that fighter used it since long time.Back in the 30, s.
rufus Zufall Where? In Philly?
Mayweathers use the "Detroit Rock."
EDOGZ818 oh really?Detroit woab maybe ,shoulder roll.
Philly shell is just some name coined. But fighters from Detroid are known for that style.
rufus Zufall James Toney, Tony Tucker? & Buster Mathis are from Floyd's block.
Pernell trainer was the great George Benten, Toney studied tapes of Ezzard Charles, great Philly shell technicans of the sweet science....Toney fought in the pocket a lot so even evading most of the punches he was still getting hit , that plus all the sparring he did ( as he never did roadwork) caused the brain damage ......Floyd doesnt take these chances
,
sayf can you talk about some training routines? maybe that you use
"You do not think Floyd Ducked anyone who did not DESERVE ducking"!!!!!
NO ONE deserves ducking if they are in their prime and a challenge! I have put Floyd's record for all to see and he has done virtually nothing to warrant his and his fan's claims. EVERY ONE he has fought another man beat worse! JMM was MADE for him and was naturally smaller. As for that tired test thing! NO!!!! EVERYONE else fought Manny without asking for the test! Some even beat him, so Floyd is more coward than brave.
I understand, but boxing is not a "moral" sport :-). Head buts, no! An elbow as a blow, no! To push back, many greats have used it and I would smile if I saw u do it too. It is a veteran's tool.