in a world where youtubers demo new gear everyday through cab IR's, always pushing us poor guitar players to buy the newest piece of gear, we can always count on old Johan to demo old cheap and expensive gear the way it was meant to be played. ps: please please please play a sovtek mig 100
Migs go for 1500+ used because of the folklore. Stock mig 50s sound great but the components are absolute garbage. Same with the reissues. I bought an EH reissue and it buzzed loudly with nothing even plugged in. Sounded awesome and if I had any skill to change amp components I would have . When you can buy an original blackface bassman for under a grand there is no reason to buy a mig IMO.
Since I was in right before moving to regular comments, I'll just say that I think the imperfections are what give the Marshall cabinet its character. Guitar is, after all, a lo-fi instrument. Distortion is an imperfection that we appreciate, and we think that it gives the guitar a desirable character. Speaker cabinets shouldn't be any different.
At one point, however, if you have too many parts colouring the signal, it will start to lose something. Having "colourless" or at least scintifically "optimized" elements at strategic points of the chain will let you hear all the GOOD degredation in its glory.
@@JohanSegeborn : actually, if you team the Thiele with a serious post-preamp EQ the same way Mesa did with their 5 bands one that auto switches on when you call the amp's distortion, the 12L will do true wonders in distortion too... If you rely on a more serious EQ than a 5 bands, your 12L can "copy" the freq responses of all guitar speakers on market. The 12L hasn't the usual ear flattering 1400Hz freq drop other gtr speakers have, so you need the EQ for the usual natural V-EQing in distortion. The only thng I can't do with the 12L is replacing the alnico speakers. Since I couldn't secure the owning of a pair of alnico EVM12SRO or Altec 417 or Weber Michigan 12 Alnico which share the same cone, I just ordered a WGS Blackhawk HP 100W : if the 50W version is a drop-in replacement for Celestion Gold Alnico, the 100W HP (high power) one has a large dome similar to the EV one and several sellers list it as a drop-in replacement for the SRO. I noticed a promo with two remaining 16 ohms ones on a German website for €182.82 yesterday, then decided to listen to some tests, fell on a shootout between the 50 and the 100W versions, the 50W had a Celestion feel, but the 100W sounded totally different! Way more EVish... I can't tell if it sounds like a SRO or 417 but I thought it might make my day so I ordered these two remainders : I already own a Celestion Gold I loaded in my AC15 but I really don't feel using it with either my stereo Marshalls or Mesas
Chris : the issue is not just with the cabs, it also comes with the speakers! The Celestions and Eminence all have a 1.4kHz freq drop... The 12L hasn't... May feel boxy? You can use an EQ to create a freq hole! Now listen to how the Celestion or Eminence speakers are defined compared to the EV! It's just like listening to 128k mp3 compared to 24/96 masters! Going Lo-Fi from a high quality signal is easy, you won't make high quality from Lo-Fi... BTW, I'm mainly a Marshall guy : I own a 9005 (two JCM800/50W Silver Jubilee poweramps) and two EL84-20/20, I can tell you that no matter the preamp (Triaxis, Marshall 9001, Soldano, CAE 3+SE and even the Rockman Sustainor(!)), the results are simply MARVELLOUS! By using a post-preamp EQ, I can blend in ANY style and it's freaking touch-responsive, I can even get the insane punchy impulsions Hendrix had on the Voodoo Chile/blues (he used a 2x15 with JBL D130F on it). Colouring speakers are only good to bring some life to sterile amps, but I can guarantee that amps with serious characters like my Marshs benefit way more from this uncoloured speaker : you REALLY hear your amp's sound and it's absolutely gorgeous! If you consider high end amps like the Mesa Mk series, and Howard Dumble opted for the EVM12L for the same reason, are truly pitiful with Celestion speakers! When the 12L was discontinued, Mesa loaded the Celestion C90 in Mark series enclosures, let me tell you that a Mark-series falls a lot in quality : with this, it's just a good amp like many others while with EVM12L, it's a true marvel! I'd surely consider some Celestion with some lfeless amp, maybe something ultra clean designed for extreme metal, but with any "good" Marshall or the old-school Mesas, EVM12L is my go to, period!
Neville Teal was my boss... RIP He devised the TS parameters as his university thesis. Nobody noticed until Small came along later and popularised his work. When I started work at ABC Design and Development lab the techs had custom designed desktop speaker boxes with little 2 inch speakers.... they sounded amazing. So glad you know so much about his work.
Probably unsurprisingly, the "ad hoc Marshall dimensions" have more "character", which just works well for guitar. The Thiele cab is tight and precise and... less interesting to my ear. I recently purchased a pair of vintage EVM 12L's and i've been wondering about the same question and if i should get a Thiele cab. Perfect timing and thanks for the video, Johan!
While I agree with your assessment, at the same time I see the benefit of the space saving Thiele box. Soundwise I prefer the Thiele because it's cleaner sounding and sometimes that's what you want. But now I feel like I should buy a EVM 12L...
Johan is the Kaiser Sose' of Guitar Amps,,,if you even think about buying something with out tuning in first, you will have murdered your wallet while you were wide awake! Yaaaaaaaaa!
Since I started playing music 53 years ago I discovered many decades ago closed back cabinets produce more bottom end and volume that open back cabinets. Especially when playing large stages like theaters or outdoor stages at music festivals. I knew a lot of bass and volume was lost out of the back of an open opened back cabinet. I stopped using combo amps for that reason and started using closed back cabinets with a separate power head. Cabinet size and shape does influence the amount of volume and the kind of tone you ultimately get. Speakers make a difference but so does the cabinet.
I've been using closed back cabinets because it's what my favorite speakers were designed for. I haven't thought much about the other factors you mentioned.
Great demo! The Boogie cabinet has a much smaller footprint than the Marshall, but seems to sound very similar. Good option for small stages or tiny apartments!
I have a 1x12 i built a long time ago, and a jet city 1x12 I recently acquired. Both sealed and made of plywood. My cab is 500w X 500h X 300d and the jet city is 530w X 520h X 280d. The difference is incredible! I always felt dissatisfied with my homemade one, it gave my old UK greenback a really tinny character, but the jet city cabinet lets it breath and move so much more with only a minute addition to internal volume. Much better bass response. I may have to record it like you have here, excellent video Johan. Your videos are very much appreciated and the dedication is admirable.
Johan always shows us the necessity of experimentation in our pursuit of the best tone. There are so many variables between your amp, guitar, cab and what-if-any effects you are using, that the only way to know is to try different combinations of things. With cabs it's swapping different speakers in and out of different cabs. Yeah, it's a lot of work but the payoff is HUGE when you find that right combination of speakers in the right cabinet.
Well done Johan! Great demo and explanation! You know me, I Love them Both! Enjoyable to these old ears that turn 65 tomorrow! Rockin' Chair Yeah! Thanks for sharing brother and Be Well All!
For me, the best result is using a EVM Thiele and a regular open back EVM cab together. The Thiele delivers tight but thumping bass response while the open back gives spread and fills up the room. Works really well with all my amps. And as others have said, the compact size can be really attractive, too. By the way, given your sound samples, the difference between frontloading and rearloading seem to me not to make such a big difference, either.
As others already pointed out: For vintage and classic rock we are probably used to "imperfections", and that is the sound we want. For those riffs I preferred the Marshall cab. For the "softer" riffs you played the Mesa cab might be better at giving a specific tone. Great demo, as always! I have some (still vague) plans of building some speaker cabs myself, and I was actually not aware of the Thiele Small Parameters. Thanks for that!
I was having trouble telling much difference, even with headphones. I'm sure the sound quality was different in the room. I'd like your opinion on the recorded cab sounds versus IR's. Great deep-dive stuff as usual brother! God bless and rock on.
Thanks brother! The recordings pretty much reflected the differences. The Thiele was neutral and firm and went lower and the Marshall was middier but also looser and boxier
Great to see the discussion on T&S parameters! The Mesa cab has front side ports. Is the Marshall a sealed enclosure or ported enclosure? If it is sealed, then this will be a large factor in why they sound different. Preffered the Boogie, loved the jam!
I was looking at cab dimensions similar to mesas widebody because I like the low end but not the price. I settled on the peavey 112-c. Needless to say I'm very happy with that choice.
I have one of these Mesa Theile Cabs with the EVM12L. It moves a lot of air for its small size. I personally find that it sounds very punchy but also really directional. If I am standing off to the side of the cab at all, the tone is all gone. You really need to be right in front of it, on axis. Personally it’s a bit jarring on it own. I find the best results are with it paired with an open back combo in stereo. Combo fills the room, theile cab adds low end punch and immediacy.
Sometimes a "lucky accident" yields great results. I have a Marshall DSL1 combo that was hooked to a Marshall MX112 cabinet. It sounded pretty good, until... I put a Celestion Greenback in the MX112 and hooked it to my Marshall Origin 20 head. Truly Awesome. (I liked that combination so much that I bought a second MX112 & Greenback so the Origin can use both 16 ohm outputs.) I put the Celestion Seventy 80 in a cheap Peavey Valveking 112 cab for the DSL1 and believe it or not, the Seventy 80 sounds better in the Peavey cab (which is rectangle, as opposed to the square MX112) (I also moved the rubber feet to the side of the Peavey and made it vertical instead of horizontal.) (Also I tested the DSL1 using MX112/Greenback cab and the Seventy 80 in the Peavey sounded better to me.)
This box is such a great design. I scaled the measurements down to 3/4 of the size to use with a Celestion Eight 15. Building it with 1/2 inch plywood and closing off the two smaller ports tightened up some of the low end and made the sound less booming. I am currently using my boss katana practice amp with an output mod to power it and this cab setup puts out so much volume with only half the rated wattage of the speaker, this box could most likely work well with anything you put into it.
@@qua7771 Oh sorry...... mine came with the C90 and I haven't had the time to try at full volume. It has a lot of bass but a bit flabby, I may try to block one of the ports...maybe I install the EVM in the Thiele and the C90 in the combo
@@MalcaratMartinez That might work. I'm trying to get less flabby bass as well, but I think it's my amp, not the speakers. I have greenbacks in a 2x12, playing through a Marshall 1987 clone.
Use TL806/EVM12L with a Marshall, I can tell you that your windows' glasses will vibrate before you reach 10W with your master volume!!! No way I switch the "Deep" switch "ON" when I use the EL84-20/20 with my EVs!!! The great thing is that despite basses are enormous, so, usually I keep basses low at preamp leve, they are damn accurate! No vlooomf coming from cab's reactance, like on early Speed-Metal records using Model 1960 cabs.. The Marshall's Presence pot would surely need to be logarithmic instead of linear : it's difficult to tune, you can get serious bright from your Mesa too, it's just much easier to regulate the presence so users just end tending to not let it go so "icepick-in-the-ear", but actually, Mesa, at least for Mk/Caliber series, tend to be way much muddier than Marshs when it comes to distorted sounds, Marshs are really tighter... Note that it's not criticism of Mesas, it's absolutely normal when you use 6L6, and this is nicer when you want light/mid crunchy blues sounds, while Marshall will behave better with serious crunch à la AC/DC... The EL34s will also bring you tighter clean Brit sound : Marshall power sections are wonderful for clean sound! When the clean sucks, it's single-channel amps : it's NOT a clean channel, it's optimised for the Marshall crunch! Use the Black Face channel from a Mesa Preamp into a Marshall power section and your first reaction is... PINK FLOYD!!!!
Think I'm going to download some of your badass playing and make a playlist on one track. Why I never thought of this before? Seriously badass rocking JS
I run a thiele on top of a Mesa OS 4x12 with a Mark V 25, I tried it just messing around one day and was blow away on how well they pair. Give it a try if you got them.
One of the things we like about distorted electric guitar is the overtones/harmonics. I have no idea if the Thiele Small parameters help or hinder in theory, but in practice I thought the Boogie cab sounded pretty good.
The best cab I ever heard is my Stromberg Carlson console radio/record player from 1946. It has 1 12" speaker , solid plywood with mahogany veneer looks like furniture and dwarfs a 4x12. Of course the compartment with the speaker is 1/4 of the whole thing. 18" deep open back , open bottom on 2 1/2" legs. I think the whole thing resonates and sound bounces of the wall behind and the floor and resonates the parallel compartment which is made to hole lp vinyl. I have 1957 magnavox alnico speaker which sounds very good in regular size speaker cab for 1x12 but this sound is so phenomenal
Hi Johann. Thanks for all of your thorough demos in pursuit of the great guitar sound. Have you ever tried Barefaced Audio cabinets? I would really enjoy a demo of their 1x10 and 1x12 cabinets by you. Speaking of compact cabinets, what about the Bluguitar Nanocab and Fatcab. Cheers, mate.
I find that the Mesa Thiele cabinet is a bit weak on the bottom end. By making a slightly taller version (same height as width) you get a fuller bass response that I prefer. I've been making cabinets in that specification since about 1988.
Perfect sound is like saying perfect art. It’s all relative. Amazing how much cab changes sound. It’s seems all our rock tuned ears are tuned to 4x12 cab sounding the best but theres no such thing as perfect just different. Much love of all your testing!!
The 1933 is my all-time favorite 1x12 cab. I own a pair bought 15 years ago - I use to replace speakers, there's actually a Creamback 65 in one and a V-type 70 in the other.
Check out a 5150 iii 2x12 combo, as its a cabinet built inside a cabinet. With its resonance knob one can makes it have a spectrum from really thin to absurdly thick.
interesting in the differences, both sound really good but I must confess I like the sound of the 1933. I have a Marshall 1912 which I loaded with a Fender 12F speaker which I believe is a Fender branded EVM 12S. Sounds to be about in between these two you are demoing. Great stuff, Johan, appreciate the time and effort and great content. Nice to hear the simple drum kit again! Stay Safe
I tried several times to build guitar cabinets according to Thiele Small parameters, they have several advantages, but the traditional and non-scientific Marshall cab always sounds alive in comparison. They definitely work with bass, but with the guitar there is always a sort of alchemy in the sound: tubes into saturation, unreliable speakers, cabinets with messed up dimensions... but it all works tortiera and is magic! The track in the end if the video is great!
The Mesa boogie absolutely crushes the Marshall in this case. I have a Mesa 295 and Studio preamp that sound great driving my old Fender Twin speakers. Not sure if they would sound better with a Marshall or Mesa cab though.
Thanks for the lesson on the formulas! Really enjoy the technical dives. The last time I heard anyone talking formulas for speaker cabinets, it was back in school with my friends talking subwoofer box volume for their car stereos. As far as tone goes, my ears don't hear a lot of difference except that it sounds like some bass falls off with the Marshall cabinet. If there is more difference, I blame my current hearing on my poor decisions with car stereos 🤦♂️
Hello Johan, the equation you mentioned is actually relevant for hi fi speaker enclosures, which are " totally different beasts" in comparison with guitar speakers enclosures; electric guitar sounds sit in a very limited range of frequencies , and not necessarly they have to be highlighted in a very clear way to achieve a pleasant guitar sound to the ears; in fact both enclosures although different( very different!) Sound good and have a specific goal: tighter, more cutting through the Thiele, more broad, open and " grainy" the 1933, I like both, cheers!
A 'perfect cabinet' is subjective for sure. I have a friedman 2x12 that I record with almost exclusively. I have a Marshall 1960a that is just OK. I'll tell you what shocked me. I needed a 1x12 cabinet for my lunchbox amp for small venue's. I picked up an Orange PPC112 and was floored by the sound of it! Although I pulled the vintage 30 and replaced it with a G12H creamback that I was saving for a special occasion. You should demo an orange cab!
Thanks for your continuous and most pleasant guitar nerdery! I'd be interested to hear how well the Cab works with other speakers it wasn't designed for.
T-S parameters are important, if you're looking for neutral reproduction of a signal. So, it might be a useful concept for a modeling amp with thousands of amp and speaker models. I want my cabinet and speaker to color the signal.
I found out by experience how important the cab is to overall tone. I have an Orange 2x12 with broken-in Celestion Vintage 30's, an EVH 2x12 with broken-in Celestion Heritage speakers, and a brand-new Avatar Forte vertical 2x12 with one new Celestion Vintage 30 and a new Celestion Heritage. I have two heads: a Friedman Dirty Shirley 40 watt & an EVH 5150 6L6 50 watt. I put the new speakers aside and installed each pair of broken-in speakers into each cab and played both heads through them. The overall tone stayed with the cab instead of following the speakers. The Orange cab was heavy on the lows and low-mids while the highs were muffled; the EVH cab was shrill and ice-picky with the highs and the lows were weak and thin; and the Avatar Forte Vertical sounded more well-rounded with the highs being a bit muffled but still present and the lows still thick but not overwhelming. To be honest, the Orange loaded with the Heritage speakers sounded like complete ass, with the highs being trill but still weak and the lows being in some unpleasant frequency, while the Vintage 30's in the EVH presented a little thicker bottom end but lacking in highs that one would think would be needed to cut through a mix. In both cases, each head needed to have their bass, treble, and mid settings set to extremes just to sound ok. It was a surprise because the EVH cab with the Heritage speakers are really ice-picky sounding on the highs and I thought that transferring those speakers to the Orange would tame the highs just enough to sound good. Nope - the highs disappeared and the lows became too much. Well, then the EVH should tame the lows of the Vintage 30s, right? Well, it did, but too much while the highs were weak and flat-sounding. That was my experience with different cabs with the same speakers. This next stuff I will write will have nothing to do with the cab comparison... The best combo I found out of all my equipment was a broken-in Celestion Heritage paired with the new Vintage 30 into the Avatar. Putting a broken-in Vintage 30 presented too much flub on the bottom end, meaning that eventually when that new Vintage 30 I have in it now breaks in it will start to sound flubby to my ears. Speaking of broken-in VS new speakers, I also did a comparison there: putting in the new Celestion Heritage next to a broken-in one in the same cab, and the same experiment with the new Vintage 30 and a broken-in one. Result? The broken-in speakers seem to project more volume overall. While facing the cab head-on, it isn't as noticeable as hearing the cab from an angle. But overall, when you hear it, you get tricked into thinking that the new one isn't even hooked up until you put your ear closer to it and hear it outputting sound. Anyway, all of these comparisons were done with just my ears so take it with a grain of salt, I guess. All I know is, after it all was said and done, I'm keeping the Friedman head and the Avatar cab loaded with 1 broken-in Celestion Heritage speaker and one new Vintage 30 speaker, and the Orange cab and the EVH 5150 head along with the cab are all up for sale (the EVH cab has a new speaker in it). But remember: tone is subjective...what I thought sounded good to my ears may sound horrible to someone else.
Thoughtful detailed comment. Yes orange cabinets gobble treble. I don’t see the point of that. It’s astonishing who makes the good sounding speaker cabinet. It isn’t rocket science. And it shouldn’t have a NASA budget. I just wanted to mention that you have two speakers with totally different volume levels coupled together now. One is substantially louder than the other.
I could see a T/S cab working for specific genres of harder music or keyboards. Not for classic rock/blues though. I want a mid focused, looser sound out of my speakers/cabinets.
Actually, you're wrong about your frequencies perceptions : your regular cabs have a frequency drop around 1.4kHz, just look at their speakers datasheet! The EVM12L hasn't!!! It's not even at cab level... All you have to do with the 12L is some frequency cut and guess what? I have a MARVELLOUS sound with my Vigier Excalibur Supra SSS + Muff Germanium4 + Triaxis + EL84-20/20 + Thieles while playing... I Can't Get No (Satisfaction) as well as Led Zep 1 or anything classic rock/blues! Mark my words, you'll have a hard time differentiating the guitar sound on the Stones' record from mine!!!! In fact, I'm just about 2% thicker, and using a DiMarzio DP-185 "hotrail" ceramic PU in bridge posn! My amps are a little tweaked, e.g. silver-mica caps instead of ceramic ones, etc. Note that I had sold my Mesa Fifty:Fifty and got the Marsh 20/20 as I wanted my Marshall-Boogie sound back : the 1st amp I built was a Mesa Stu22 copy with transformers scavenged from a burnt 1974 Marshall "18watter" Actually, a Keith Richards obsessed dude even ended with a nervous breakdown because of me : he had spent a real fortune gearing-up exactly like Keith in the 60's, spending big on vintage gear, most of it from the same year as Keith's (there is other stuff too)... I let you imagine how much he paid for the 1960 LesPaul. He had became so much a piss-off for his son's guitar teacher and myself that we organised a blind test for him!!! We used my DIY snakeskin-tolexed TL806s so he couldn't know which speakers were used (no brand on). My budy had just received his brand new 7-strings "Strat" from master luthier Leduc, she has a Floyd-Rose with piezos, 1895 Brazilian rosewood fretboard, Elsass alder body, Canadian hardrock maple neck, Benedetti SSH handwound permalloy custom PUs and a preamp... Note that his CAE 3+SE preamp had been customized by my "master" in tube electronics, so he has a blackface and a plexi channels as clean and crunch, but with the wonderful CAE dynamics... WIMA caps were changed for Orange Drops on the BF chan, and for Mallorys on the Plexi chan. His preamp, which usually goes into a Fryette 2-90-2 was used with my Marsh for this even, which decided me to build a (modified to my tastes) copy of it... Then... "Keith" confused her with his own L-series Strat. He believed that my Excalibur, a model of guitar used by Shawn Lane or Ron Thal, was a vintage Tely, err, nope, she's a vintage Vigier, being one of the early built Excaliburs, and then, he went really green : we didn't pursued the blind test further but I wanted to compare his 1960 LP to my "PRS w. LP wood volume" built by late luthier Xavier Petit, using a 100+ years old Honduras mahogany. The neck has 25.5" scale and is very thin, similar to a Vigier Arpège-1, titanium trussrod, carbon reinforcement bars in, deep tenon setneck goes as far as the bridge, brass-bell bridge+nut, strings thru-body, Spertzel locking tuners, SP Custom handwound alnco PAF'57 replicas, Gabon jet black ebony fretboard... Guess what? I preferred my 2008 X.Petit guitar to the 1960 LP : they sound very similar but mine has a more in-your-face aggressiveness, moreover, ergonomics are far superior... Actually, my buddy (the teacher) was considering having Xavier building such a Super-PRS and selling his 1976 LesPaul when the luthier passed... I must say that it was really joyful to see the face of this ever-vomiting-on-non-vintage-gear dude when he understood that, in a blind test, he believed we had converted to vintage crap while the goal of the test was to demonstrate him how far he was deluded So let me laugh about the _"Not for classic rock/blues though."_ BTW, SRV, Knopfler as well as Gary Moore were serious EVM12L users. _" I want a mid focused, looser sound out of my speakers/cabinets."_ I far prefer something I can tweak into doing anything I may need, this is the very interest of the 12L : you can play anything with it. When EV advertises it as the best guitar speaker in the world, it's near true : it's the case as long you're not ooking for alnico speakers' sound.
I did about the very same comparison in my room without miking the cabs. Just judging by ear. Thiele/EVM vs. Marshall 1x12/Celestion Blackback at different volume levels. The result surprised me, the Marshall cab sounded much better at all volume levels.
The Mesa cabinet is front loaded, that scoops out lower mids from like 200Hz to 800Hz. The area engineers refer to as “body”. You get more clarity and openness to your tone, equivalently less body. Rear mounting your speaker like in Marshall gives those lower mids a boost, ie more body to your tone.
That’s an interesting observation. I haven’t had that experience but we should definitely try it in a comparison. Do you know the physical reason for that. Is it that less of the speaker resides inside the cab? Cheers
@@JohanSegeborn what the physics are is more difficult to understand, but here are the measured results. celestion.com/blog/should-i-front-or-rear-mount-a-speaker-onto-the-cabinet-baffle/
I have a pro made Thiele with an appropriate EV12L type speaker in it. Hard to beat the utility. Mic it, it's an improved 4x12 (goes to about 85hz vs 100hz on a 4x12). So, it's a small one hander 4x12 equivalent... ...if you're standing in the right place. "Where did my highs go?" (Adjusts eq, stand in front) "ahhh icepicks!" You do eventually get used to it. Paying off a 4x12 right now so I can friggin move and still hear myself, but I'll probably never sell the Thiele. It's the only "metal" 1x12 cab. Glad the DSL40C wasn't the first DSL I played, the 1x12 open back really changes it vs a 1960a.
I liked both cabinets with that driver. The Mesa is a little bassier and more open sounding, the Marshall a little more forward. I think they would actually sound pretty great together, if you had one of each.
Sounds like the difference between room and hall ...its the Marshall for me sounds big warm and clear ..the boogie is sharp harsh and compressed !...sweet home tones cool
do you have a favorite 2x12 cab? Currently getting rid of my emperor and bruno 2x12s to get one, amazing sounding 2x12. do you like fanes in 2x12s? what should i be looking at? thanks
Tour Manager: So you want a Thiele 1x12 or a 4x12 for a show? They sound pretty the same. Guitarist: Still going for the 4x12 because they work as penis extensions.
I went on craigslist and got the cheapest Peavey speaker and a cabinet that was missing the amp. It works for my grab and go cab. It sounds a bit treblier than the bassman closed back, but it is a lot cheaper and easier to carry for less important jams. That is as scientific as I got with it.
That live of EV drivers is quite interesting, I use a EVM15L in a custom built TL606 cabinet for bass. The original design allows the cabinet to be used for bass and guitar by covering part of the shelf port. I'd love to see you do a review on one with guitar!
Johan, you just had to post this the day before my empty 1960A cab arrives, didn't you? I'm going to block two of the speaker holes and run it as a 1961A 2x12 cab. :-)
@@JohanSegeborn That would be awesome! Thank you my friend! Either way, the tone from anything you play through always has "The Johan Tone", and that's a recipe for success!
I love my pair of Thiele cabs. They aren't perfect sounding, but I bought the pair for $500 so I am not complaining. For their footprint, a Mesa Thiele cab with an EVM-12L is massive sounding. The low end is more apparent with the Thiele over the Marshall cab. I tune down & use a Mutron Octave Divider, so I like the low end resolution offered by the Thiele. You do realize that Mesa changed the dimensions to fit a Mark 1 head on top of it. The dimensions aren't the same as the calculated values for a Thiele cab. The original cabs were really meant for PA work. A friend did a 2x12 Thiele that sounded wicked for guitar. It was super heavy.
I used them in 2x12. Good new speaker with some old-shool-ish sounds. Has similar horrible, to my ear, top end fizz* like all new celestions compared to old pulsonics. *Im talking about broken-in spekers with lots of hours on them.
i think given the technology mostly people using high gain sounds will profit from thiele cabs. if you play classic rock and blues, and maybe even classic metal the benefits you get from a thiele cab are either miniscule or you'd be better off soundwise with a classic marshall/laney/fender/orange cab, cause they might work better for those playing styles and amp sounds.
I just found this video... That written, I've built and used TL806 cabinets since EV released the designs in the '70s. In fact, I've even used EV designed TB series boxes for SROs designed back in the late '60s. At any rate, I find that the Marshall 1933 sounds better. I'm still satisfied with the TL806, but the 1933 sounds better.
I feel like trying to get more low end out of a guitar cab is kinda futile in a classic rock context, since you're going to have to fight with the bass player over that sonic space anyway. For metal and down tuned stuff it's probably awesome though!
The Boogie cab sounds more rounded and with more bass but I prefer the Marshall. I think it sounds more to a classic guitar and cuts better through the mix.
Perfect let’s go, sounds like the all black one is the cheaper one, I like the sound of the Gray one more, the winter vs a Rolling Cube vs Boss Kianna. But the black one cut through the mix better.
with such close mic'ing are we really hearing what a cabinet does in the room? I never put my ear so close to a speaker cabinet, I hear the sum of the speaker and what ever the cabinet does from a reasonable distance
@@JohanSegeborn interesting, I would not expect that blending in more room would make them sound more similar. Great video and info. thanks from Santa Barbara, CA
Like others, I prefer the Marshall cab for similar reasons. Maybe because it's the kind of sound we are more used to hear? The Mesa cab was definitely tight and clear, though.
I think it is more the application. The bass guys seem more forward thinking with gear (I actually pull several ideas from them) and something like an optimized cabinet to help with clarity is pretty on point. Guitar is more variable (just look at the different presentations various amps give). If you were looking at a "reference" design to compare various components, the wide body makes sense (even if that is not where you end up).
Oh, yes, I agree with you as well. There are always two factors affecting our sound: - What you like when playing by yourself. - What actually works when playing with others. I don't gig or anything, I was just a «low level» teacher, but I always taught my students to take the bass a notch down from where they liked it in order leave space for the bass guitar. Point proven that day I took a bass to the lesson and we had to match our frequencies in order to be able to hear each other at room level.
The mids are reduced from the Mesa cabinet because its a front loaded cabinet. Marshall is rear mounted, so it gives back more lower mids. Front loaded always gives a more open and clarity to the sound. Rear mounted gives you more body to the tone. These are the exact frequencies when session guys and engineers refer to “body”.
@@voxpathfinder15r How would the mounting of the speaker to the baffle make this much of a difference? I think this is more depending on open vs closed cabinet.
You might want to check out the "detuned" guitar cabs that Kevin O'Connor of LondonPower.com talks about. I built a 1-15 detuned cabinet and it sounds great!
in a world where youtubers demo new gear everyday through cab IR's, always pushing us poor guitar players to buy the newest piece of gear, we can always count on old Johan to demo old cheap and expensive gear the way it was meant to be played.
ps: please please please play a sovtek mig 100
Thanks! ;-)
I will do the Sovtek first chance I get I promise!
Migs go for 1500+ used because of the folklore. Stock mig 50s sound great but the components are absolute garbage. Same with the reissues. I bought an EH reissue and it buzzed loudly with nothing even plugged in. Sounded awesome and if I had any skill to change amp components I would have . When you can buy an original blackface bassman for under a grand there is no reason to buy a mig IMO.
Since I was in right before moving to regular comments, I'll just say that I think the imperfections are what give the Marshall cabinet its character. Guitar is, after all, a lo-fi instrument. Distortion is an imperfection that we appreciate, and we think that it gives the guitar a desirable character. Speaker cabinets shouldn't be any different.
Yeah it’s indeed hard to optimize something that builds on an imperfection in the first place. I prefer the Thiele cab for the cleaner parts though
Chris Mondy >>> Excactly .
At one point, however, if you have too many parts colouring the signal, it will start to lose something. Having "colourless" or at least scintifically "optimized" elements at strategic points of the chain will let you hear all the GOOD degredation in its glory.
@@JohanSegeborn : actually, if you team the Thiele with a serious post-preamp EQ the same way Mesa did with their 5 bands one that auto switches on when you call the amp's distortion, the 12L will do true wonders in distortion too... If you rely on a more serious EQ than a 5 bands, your 12L can "copy" the freq responses of all guitar speakers on market.
The 12L hasn't the usual ear flattering 1400Hz freq drop other gtr speakers have, so you need the EQ for the usual natural V-EQing in distortion.
The only thng I can't do with the 12L is replacing the alnico speakers.
Since I couldn't secure the owning of a pair of alnico EVM12SRO or Altec 417 or Weber Michigan 12 Alnico which share the same cone, I just ordered a WGS Blackhawk HP 100W : if the 50W version is a drop-in replacement for Celestion Gold Alnico, the 100W HP (high power) one has a large dome similar to the EV one and several sellers list it as a drop-in replacement for the SRO. I noticed a promo with two remaining 16 ohms ones on a German website for €182.82 yesterday, then decided to listen to some tests, fell on a shootout between the 50 and the 100W versions, the 50W had a Celestion feel, but the 100W sounded totally different! Way more EVish... I can't tell if it sounds like a SRO or 417 but I thought it might make my day so I ordered these two remainders : I already own a Celestion Gold I loaded in my AC15 but I really don't feel using it with either my stereo Marshalls or Mesas
Chris : the issue is not just with the cabs, it also comes with the speakers! The Celestions and Eminence all have a 1.4kHz freq drop... The 12L hasn't... May feel boxy? You can use an EQ to create a freq hole!
Now listen to how the Celestion or Eminence speakers are defined compared to the EV! It's just like listening to 128k mp3 compared to 24/96 masters!
Going Lo-Fi from a high quality signal is easy, you won't make high quality from Lo-Fi...
BTW, I'm mainly a Marshall guy : I own a 9005 (two JCM800/50W Silver Jubilee poweramps) and two EL84-20/20, I can tell you that no matter the preamp (Triaxis, Marshall 9001, Soldano, CAE 3+SE and even the Rockman Sustainor(!)), the results are simply MARVELLOUS! By using a post-preamp EQ, I can blend in ANY style and it's freaking touch-responsive, I can even get the insane punchy impulsions Hendrix had on the Voodoo Chile/blues (he used a 2x15 with JBL D130F on it).
Colouring speakers are only good to bring some life to sterile amps, but I can guarantee that amps with serious characters like my Marshs benefit way more from this uncoloured speaker : you REALLY hear your amp's sound and it's absolutely gorgeous! If you consider high end amps like the Mesa Mk series, and Howard Dumble opted for the EVM12L for the same reason, are truly pitiful with Celestion speakers! When the 12L was discontinued, Mesa loaded the Celestion C90 in Mark series enclosures, let me tell you that a Mark-series falls a lot in quality : with this, it's just a good amp like many others while with EVM12L, it's a true marvel!
I'd surely consider some Celestion with some lfeless amp, maybe something ultra clean designed for extreme metal, but with any "good" Marshall or the old-school Mesas, EVM12L is my go to, period!
Dude you are an absolute legend how do you not have more followers??
that little Boogie Box has a lot of Bass sustain 😊🤘
Neville Teal was my boss... RIP
He devised the TS parameters as his university thesis. Nobody noticed until Small came along later and popularised his work.
When I started work at ABC Design and Development lab the techs had custom designed desktop speaker boxes with little 2 inch speakers.... they sounded amazing.
So glad you know so much about his work.
That jam was awesome!! Using it to play some sweet leads to at home.
Probably unsurprisingly, the "ad hoc Marshall dimensions" have more "character", which just works well for guitar. The Thiele cab is tight and precise and... less interesting to my ear. I recently purchased a pair of vintage EVM 12L's and i've been wondering about the same question and if i should get a Thiele cab. Perfect timing and thanks for the video, Johan!
Thanks Charlie! I’m glad the video is put to some good use!
I just bought an EVM12L and am waiting for a TL806 box to be built. This is perfect timing.
While I agree with your assessment, at the same time I see the benefit of the space saving Thiele box. Soundwise I prefer the Thiele because it's cleaner sounding and sometimes that's what you want. But now I feel like I should buy a EVM 12L...
Johan is the Kaiser Sose' of Guitar Amps,,,if you even think about buying something with out tuning in first, you will have murdered your wallet while you were wide awake! Yaaaaaaaaa!
Since I started playing music 53 years ago I discovered many decades ago closed back cabinets produce more bottom end and volume that open back cabinets. Especially when playing large stages like theaters or outdoor stages at music festivals. I knew a lot of bass and volume was lost out of the back of an open opened back cabinet. I stopped using combo amps for that reason and started using closed back cabinets with a separate power head. Cabinet size and shape does influence the amount of volume and the kind of tone you ultimately get. Speakers make a difference but so does the cabinet.
I've been using closed back cabinets because it's what my favorite speakers were designed for. I haven't thought much about the other factors you mentioned.
Great demo! The Boogie cabinet has a much smaller footprint than the Marshall, but seems to sound very similar. Good option for small stages or tiny apartments!
I have a 1x12 i built a long time ago, and a jet city 1x12 I recently acquired. Both sealed and made of plywood.
My cab is 500w X 500h X 300d and the jet city is 530w X 520h X 280d.
The difference is incredible!
I always felt dissatisfied with my homemade one, it gave my old UK greenback a really tinny character, but the jet city cabinet lets it breath and move so much more with only a minute addition to internal volume.
Much better bass response.
I may have to record it like you have here, excellent video Johan. Your videos are very much appreciated and the dedication is admirable.
Thanks Alex, I’m glad to hear that!
Science time with uncle Johan... love it! Nice jam at the end too!
Thanks man! :-)
I've always wondered about Thiele porting. Very interesting, thanks Johan!
Thanks Ian!
Johan always shows us the necessity of experimentation in our pursuit of the best tone. There are so many variables between your amp, guitar, cab and what-if-any effects you are using, that the only way to know is to try different combinations of things. With cabs it's swapping different speakers in and out of different cabs. Yeah, it's a lot of work but the payoff is HUGE when you find that right combination of speakers in the right cabinet.
Ouh, hah, I really enjoyed that short tack you put together at the end there! Sounds great.
Thanks Doc! Great to hear that!
Well done Johan! Great demo and explanation! You know me, I Love them Both! Enjoyable to these old ears that turn 65 tomorrow! Rockin' Chair Yeah! Thanks for sharing brother and Be Well All!
Thanks Brother! Happy birthday in advance my friend!
@@JohanSegeborn Thanks that means a lot ! Greatly appreciated!
Be Well Brother!
For me, the best result is using a EVM Thiele and a regular open back EVM cab together. The Thiele delivers tight but thumping bass response while the open back gives spread and fills up the room. Works really well with all my amps. And as others have said, the compact size can be really attractive, too.
By the way, given your sound samples, the difference between frontloading and rearloading seem to me not to make such a big difference, either.
Really in depth information on the Thiele cab and a really cool backing track! Thanks for all you do to help us Marshall geeks!
As others already pointed out: For vintage and classic rock we are probably used to "imperfections", and that is the sound we want. For those riffs I preferred the Marshall cab. For the "softer" riffs you played the Mesa cab might be better at giving a specific tone. Great demo, as always! I have some (still vague) plans of building some speaker cabs myself, and I was actually not aware of the Thiele Small Parameters. Thanks for that!
Thanks Bengt, glad the videos are put to some use! Cheers
Sounded really good John...love the vintage gear man...
Thanks Michael, I’m glad to hear that!
I love my Mesa Thiele! Great video
That mesa cab does sound good .
I was having trouble telling much difference, even with headphones. I'm sure the sound quality was different in the room. I'd like your opinion on the recorded cab sounds versus IR's. Great deep-dive stuff as usual brother! God bless and rock on.
Thanks brother! The recordings pretty much reflected the differences. The Thiele was neutral and firm and went lower and the Marshall was middier but also looser and boxier
Great to see the discussion on T&S parameters! The Mesa cab has front side ports. Is the Marshall a sealed enclosure or ported enclosure? If it is sealed, then this will be a large factor in why they sound different. Preffered the Boogie, loved the jam!
Love the sound of that neck pickup!! Very interesting difference in sound between the two cabs. Great video as usual :-)
I was looking at cab dimensions similar to mesas widebody because I like the low end but not the price. I settled on the peavey 112-c. Needless to say I'm very happy with that choice.
I'm digging the Marshall cabinet. It's seems to have more mids to my ear. Thanks for the video. Fantastic playing and tone as always.
I have one of these Mesa Theile Cabs with the EVM12L. It moves a lot of air for its small size.
I personally find that it sounds very punchy but also really directional. If I am standing off to the side of the cab at all, the tone is all gone. You really need to be right in front of it, on axis.
Personally it’s a bit jarring on it own. I find the best results are with it paired with an open back combo in stereo. Combo fills the room, theile cab adds low end punch and immediacy.
Sometimes a "lucky accident" yields great results.
I have a Marshall DSL1 combo that was hooked to a Marshall MX112 cabinet. It sounded pretty good, until...
I put a Celestion Greenback in the MX112 and hooked it to my Marshall Origin 20 head. Truly Awesome. (I liked that combination so much that I bought a second MX112 & Greenback so the Origin can use both 16 ohm outputs.)
I put the Celestion Seventy 80 in a cheap Peavey Valveking 112 cab for the DSL1 and believe it or not, the Seventy 80 sounds better in the Peavey cab (which is rectangle, as opposed to the square MX112) (I also moved the rubber feet to the side of the Peavey and made it vertical instead of horizontal.)
(Also I tested the DSL1 using MX112/Greenback cab and the Seventy 80 in the Peavey sounded better to me.)
Nice and clean..very good
This box is such a great design. I scaled the measurements down to 3/4 of the size to use with a Celestion Eight 15. Building it with 1/2 inch plywood and closing off the two smaller ports tightened up some of the low end and made the sound less booming. I am currently using my boss katana practice amp with an output mod to power it and this cab setup puts out so much volume with only half the rated wattage of the speaker, this box could most likely work well with anything you put into it.
Also installed the speaker from the inside of the box instead of front loading it which made a slight difference.
Because of this video, I just purchased a Mesa Thiele cab for my Mk IV combo !!
How is it working out for you?
@@qua7771 Many options !! Def needs a noise gate, otherwise it's awesome !
@@MalcaratMartinez But it's just a speaker cabinet. You mean the MK IV combo? If so, that's also interesting to know.
@@qua7771 Oh sorry...... mine came with the C90 and I haven't had the time to try at full volume. It has a lot of bass but a bit flabby, I may try to block one of the ports...maybe I install the EVM in the Thiele and the C90 in the combo
@@MalcaratMartinez That might work. I'm trying to get less flabby bass as well, but I think it's my amp, not the speakers. I have greenbacks in a 2x12, playing through a Marshall 1987 clone.
Mesa a little fatter and more natural sounding to me. Marshall a little brighter and fizzier. Both very usable sounds. Nice demo
Thanks Evan!
Use TL806/EVM12L with a Marshall, I can tell you that your windows' glasses will vibrate before you reach 10W with your master volume!!! No way I switch the "Deep" switch "ON" when I use the EL84-20/20 with my EVs!!! The great thing is that despite basses are enormous, so, usually I keep basses low at preamp leve, they are damn accurate! No vlooomf coming from cab's reactance, like on early Speed-Metal records using Model 1960 cabs..
The Marshall's Presence pot would surely need to be logarithmic instead of linear : it's difficult to tune, you can get serious bright from your Mesa too, it's just much easier to regulate the presence so users just end tending to not let it go so "icepick-in-the-ear", but actually, Mesa, at least for Mk/Caliber series, tend to be way much muddier than Marshs when it comes to distorted sounds, Marshs are really tighter...
Note that it's not criticism of Mesas, it's absolutely normal when you use 6L6, and this is nicer when you want light/mid crunchy blues sounds, while Marshall will behave better with serious crunch à la AC/DC... The EL34s will also bring you tighter clean Brit sound : Marshall power sections are wonderful for clean sound! When the clean sucks, it's single-channel amps : it's NOT a clean channel, it's optimised for the Marshall crunch! Use the Black Face channel from a Mesa Preamp into a Marshall power section and your first reaction is... PINK FLOYD!!!!
Think I'm going to download some of your badass playing and make a playlist on one track.
Why I never thought of this before? Seriously badass rocking JS
I run a thiele on top of a Mesa OS 4x12 with a Mark V 25, I tried it just messing around one day and was blow away on how well they pair. Give it a try if you got them.
One of the things we like about distorted electric guitar is the overtones/harmonics. I have no idea if the Thiele Small parameters help or hinder in theory, but in practice I thought the Boogie cab sounded pretty good.
cabinet design doesn't do much above 200hz. You still need speaker roll-off to tame the fizz. Box design is all about the bass hump.
The best cab I ever heard is my Stromberg Carlson console radio/record player from 1946. It has 1 12" speaker , solid plywood with mahogany veneer looks like furniture and dwarfs a 4x12. Of course the compartment with the speaker is 1/4 of the whole thing. 18" deep open back , open bottom on 2 1/2" legs. I think the whole thing resonates and sound bounces of the wall behind and the floor and resonates the parallel compartment which is made to hole lp vinyl. I have 1957 magnavox alnico speaker which sounds very good in regular size speaker cab for 1x12 but this sound is so phenomenal
Of course you're not only a master when it comes to recording awesome guitar tones, but your drum recordings are equally as great...
Hi Johann. Thanks for all of your thorough demos in pursuit of the great guitar sound. Have you ever tried Barefaced Audio cabinets? I would really enjoy a demo of their 1x10 and 1x12 cabinets by you. Speaking of compact cabinets, what about the Bluguitar Nanocab and Fatcab.
Cheers, mate.
Hi Hugo, I’ll keep a lookout for one of those. Cheers
I find that the Mesa Thiele cabinet is a bit weak on the bottom end. By making a slightly taller version (same height as width) you get a fuller bass response that I prefer. I've been making cabinets in that specification since about 1988.
@@ZOMBIELANDakaUSA 19x19, 14" deep, sealed back, ported front, EVM-12L.
Perfect sound is like saying perfect art. It’s all relative. Amazing how much cab changes sound. It’s seems all our rock tuned ears are tuned to 4x12 cab sounding the best but theres no such thing as perfect just different. Much love of all your testing!!
Thanks Max, Amen to that!
The 1933 is my all-time favorite 1x12 cab. I own a pair bought 15 years ago - I use to replace speakers, there's actually a Creamback 65 in one and a V-type 70 in the other.
They both sound great, but I prefer the more "open" sound of the Marshall cab. Interesting demo!
Hey! Nice drumming!
Thanks! Glad you like it!
Check out a 5150 iii 2x12 combo, as its a cabinet built inside a cabinet. With its resonance knob one can makes it have a spectrum from really thin to absurdly thick.
Interesting, I didn’t know that
Cool playing as always
interesting in the differences, both sound really good but I must confess I like the sound of the 1933. I have a Marshall 1912 which I loaded with a Fender 12F speaker which I believe is a Fender branded EVM 12S. Sounds to be about in between these two you are demoing. Great stuff, Johan, appreciate the time and effort and great content. Nice to hear the simple drum kit again! Stay Safe
Thanks Mark! I compare the EVM12F to this speaker here actually ua-cam.com/video/nkZP1-E50cY/v-deo.html
@@JohanSegeborn great thanks, watching now! I also remember when these Mesa Boogie Theile cabs came out they were very popular!
I tried several times to build guitar cabinets according to Thiele Small parameters, they have several advantages, but the traditional and non-scientific Marshall cab always sounds alive in comparison. They definitely work with bass, but with the guitar there is always a sort of alchemy in the sound: tubes into saturation, unreliable speakers, cabinets with messed up dimensions... but it all works tortiera and is magic! The track in the end if the video is great!
I love these videos Johan, so interesting and educational..... thanks.
The Mesa boogie absolutely crushes the Marshall in this case. I have a Mesa 295 and Studio preamp that sound great driving my old Fender Twin speakers. Not sure if they would sound better with a Marshall or Mesa cab though.
Thanks for the lesson on the formulas! Really enjoy the technical dives. The last time I heard anyone talking formulas for speaker cabinets, it was back in school with my friends talking subwoofer box volume for their car stereos. As far as tone goes, my ears don't hear a lot of difference except that it sounds like some bass falls off with the Marshall cabinet. If there is more difference, I blame my current hearing on my poor decisions with car stereos 🤦♂️
Hahaha! Cheers Andy
Hello Johan, the equation you mentioned is actually relevant for hi fi speaker enclosures, which are " totally different beasts" in comparison with guitar speakers enclosures; electric guitar sounds sit in a very limited range of frequencies , and not necessarly they have to be highlighted in a very clear way to achieve a pleasant guitar sound to the ears; in fact both enclosures although different( very different!) Sound good and have a specific goal: tighter, more cutting through the Thiele, more broad, open and " grainy" the 1933, I like both, cheers!
Thanks Vincenzo, yeah I was leaning towards that! Cheers
A 'perfect cabinet' is subjective for sure. I have a friedman 2x12 that I record with almost exclusively. I have a Marshall 1960a that is just OK. I'll tell you what shocked me. I needed a 1x12 cabinet for my lunchbox amp for small venue's. I picked up an Orange PPC112 and was floored by the sound of it! Although I pulled the vintage 30 and replaced it with a G12H creamback that I was saving for a special occasion. You should demo an orange cab!
Yeah I have heard nice things about the PPC112
You need one of each. There are places where either could outshine the other based on all the rest of what's going on!
Nice melody
Thanks Robbie!
Thanks for your continuous and most pleasant guitar nerdery! I'd be interested to hear how well the Cab works with other speakers it wasn't designed for.
Hi, Johan!
I have to say, I liked the sound. Sounds well, and the mix is all right. Just a GOOD sound.:)👍 See you!
Z.
Thanks my friend, See you!
T-S parameters are important, if you're looking for neutral reproduction of a signal. So, it might be a useful concept for a modeling amp with thousands of amp and speaker models. I want my cabinet and speaker to color the signal.
Great video; did you ever compare this mesa 1x12 cabinet to the 'benchmark' 4x12 recto cabinet?
I found out by experience how important the cab is to overall tone. I have an Orange 2x12 with broken-in Celestion Vintage 30's, an EVH 2x12 with broken-in Celestion Heritage speakers, and a brand-new Avatar Forte vertical 2x12 with one new Celestion Vintage 30 and a new Celestion Heritage. I have two heads: a Friedman Dirty Shirley 40 watt & an EVH 5150 6L6 50 watt. I put the new speakers aside and installed each pair of broken-in speakers into each cab and played both heads through them. The overall tone stayed with the cab instead of following the speakers. The Orange cab was heavy on the lows and low-mids while the highs were muffled; the EVH cab was shrill and ice-picky with the highs and the lows were weak and thin; and the Avatar Forte Vertical sounded more well-rounded with the highs being a bit muffled but still present and the lows still thick but not overwhelming.
To be honest, the Orange loaded with the Heritage speakers sounded like complete ass, with the highs being trill but still weak and the lows being in some unpleasant frequency, while the Vintage 30's in the EVH presented a little thicker bottom end but lacking in highs that one would think would be needed to cut through a mix. In both cases, each head needed to have their bass, treble, and mid settings set to extremes just to sound ok.
It was a surprise because the EVH cab with the Heritage speakers are really ice-picky sounding on the highs and I thought that transferring those speakers to the Orange would tame the highs just enough to sound good. Nope - the highs disappeared and the lows became too much. Well, then the EVH should tame the lows of the Vintage 30s, right? Well, it did, but too much while the highs were weak and flat-sounding. That was my experience with different cabs with the same speakers.
This next stuff I will write will have nothing to do with the cab comparison... The best combo I found out of all my equipment was a broken-in Celestion Heritage paired with the new Vintage 30 into the Avatar. Putting a broken-in Vintage 30 presented too much flub on the bottom end, meaning that eventually when that new Vintage 30 I have in it now breaks in it will start to sound flubby to my ears.
Speaking of broken-in VS new speakers, I also did a comparison there: putting in the new Celestion Heritage next to a broken-in one in the same cab, and the same experiment with the new Vintage 30 and a broken-in one. Result? The broken-in speakers seem to project more volume overall. While facing the cab head-on, it isn't as noticeable as hearing the cab from an angle. But overall, when you hear it, you get tricked into thinking that the new one isn't even hooked up until you put your ear closer to it and hear it outputting sound.
Anyway, all of these comparisons were done with just my ears so take it with a grain of salt, I guess. All I know is, after it all was said and done, I'm keeping the Friedman head and the Avatar cab loaded with 1 broken-in Celestion Heritage speaker and one new Vintage 30 speaker, and the Orange cab and the EVH 5150 head along with the cab are all up for sale (the EVH cab has a new speaker in it). But remember: tone is subjective...what I thought sounded good to my ears may sound horrible to someone else.
Thoughtful detailed comment. Yes orange cabinets gobble treble. I don’t see the point of that. It’s astonishing who makes the good sounding speaker cabinet. It isn’t rocket science. And it shouldn’t have a NASA budget. I just wanted to mention that you have two speakers with totally different volume levels coupled together now. One is substantially louder than the other.
Provided that the heritage you’re talking about is the 20W that is. The 30s are equal in volume to the vintage.
I could see a T/S cab working for specific genres of harder music or keyboards.
Not for classic rock/blues though. I want a mid focused, looser sound out of my speakers/cabinets.
Thanks Matt!
Actually, you're wrong about your frequencies perceptions : your regular cabs have a frequency drop around 1.4kHz, just look at their speakers datasheet! The EVM12L hasn't!!! It's not even at cab level...
All you have to do with the 12L is some frequency cut and guess what? I have a MARVELLOUS sound with my Vigier Excalibur Supra SSS + Muff Germanium4 + Triaxis + EL84-20/20 + Thieles while playing... I Can't Get No (Satisfaction) as well as Led Zep 1 or anything classic rock/blues! Mark my words, you'll have a hard time differentiating the guitar sound on the Stones' record from mine!!!! In fact, I'm just about 2% thicker, and using a DiMarzio DP-185 "hotrail" ceramic PU in bridge posn!
My amps are a little tweaked, e.g. silver-mica caps instead of ceramic ones, etc. Note that I had sold my Mesa Fifty:Fifty and got the Marsh 20/20 as I wanted my Marshall-Boogie sound back : the 1st amp I built was a Mesa Stu22 copy with transformers scavenged from a burnt 1974 Marshall "18watter"
Actually, a Keith Richards obsessed dude even ended with a nervous breakdown because of me : he had spent a real fortune gearing-up exactly like Keith in the 60's, spending big on vintage gear, most of it from the same year as Keith's (there is other stuff too)... I let you imagine how much he paid for the 1960 LesPaul.
He had became so much a piss-off for his son's guitar teacher and myself that we organised a blind test for him!!!
We used my DIY snakeskin-tolexed TL806s so he couldn't know which speakers were used (no brand on).
My budy had just received his brand new 7-strings "Strat" from master luthier Leduc, she has a Floyd-Rose with piezos, 1895 Brazilian rosewood fretboard, Elsass alder body, Canadian hardrock maple neck, Benedetti SSH handwound permalloy custom PUs and a preamp... Note that his CAE 3+SE preamp had been customized by my "master" in tube electronics, so he has a blackface and a plexi channels as clean and crunch, but with the wonderful CAE dynamics... WIMA caps were changed for Orange Drops on the BF chan, and for Mallorys on the Plexi chan. His preamp, which usually goes into a Fryette 2-90-2 was used with my Marsh for this even, which decided me to build a (modified to my tastes) copy of it...
Then...
"Keith" confused her with his own L-series Strat. He believed that my Excalibur, a model of guitar used by Shawn Lane or Ron Thal, was a vintage Tely, err, nope, she's a vintage Vigier, being one of the early built Excaliburs, and then, he went really green : we didn't pursued the blind test further but I wanted to compare his 1960 LP to my "PRS w. LP wood volume" built by late luthier Xavier Petit, using a 100+ years old Honduras mahogany. The neck has 25.5" scale and is very thin, similar to a Vigier Arpège-1, titanium trussrod, carbon reinforcement bars in, deep tenon setneck goes as far as the bridge, brass-bell bridge+nut, strings thru-body, Spertzel locking tuners, SP Custom handwound alnco PAF'57 replicas, Gabon jet black ebony fretboard... Guess what? I preferred my 2008 X.Petit guitar to the 1960 LP : they sound very similar but mine has a more in-your-face aggressiveness, moreover, ergonomics are far superior... Actually, my buddy (the teacher) was considering having Xavier building such a Super-PRS and selling his 1976 LesPaul when the luthier passed...
I must say that it was really joyful to see the face of this ever-vomiting-on-non-vintage-gear dude when he understood that, in a blind test, he believed we had converted to vintage crap while the goal of the test was to demonstrate him how far he was deluded
So let me laugh about the _"Not for classic rock/blues though."_ BTW, SRV, Knopfler as well as Gary Moore were serious EVM12L users.
_" I want a mid focused, looser sound out of my speakers/cabinets."_
I far prefer something I can tweak into doing anything I may need, this is the very interest of the 12L : you can play anything with it. When EV advertises it as the best guitar speaker in the world, it's near true : it's the case as long you're not ooking for alnico speakers' sound.
From 6:55 onwards is awsome!
wow ,,, we have come a long way ,! ...,using a phone to record audio ,, very handy
The cord every couple bars was the tastiest most funky part in all funkadelic cheers
Glad to hear it, Cheers! :-)
Celestion+Baltic Birch cabinets are the dope! Nothing will ever touch it
Both are close and in a track or live probably wouldn't be able to tell. In isolation the Mesa has a more balanced tone.
I did about the very same comparison in my room without miking the cabs. Just judging by ear. Thiele/EVM vs. Marshall 1x12/Celestion Blackback at different volume levels. The result surprised me, the Marshall cab sounded much better at all volume levels.
The Mesa cabinet is front loaded, that scoops out lower mids from like 200Hz to 800Hz. The area engineers refer to as “body”. You get more clarity and openness to your tone, equivalently less body. Rear mounting your speaker like in Marshall gives those lower mids a boost, ie more body to your tone.
That’s an interesting observation. I haven’t had that experience but we should definitely try it in a comparison. Do you know the physical reason for that. Is it that less of the speaker resides inside the cab? Cheers
@@JohanSegeborn what the physics are is more difficult to understand, but here are the measured results. celestion.com/blog/should-i-front-or-rear-mount-a-speaker-onto-the-cabinet-baffle/
I have a pro made Thiele with an appropriate EV12L type speaker in it.
Hard to beat the utility. Mic it, it's an improved 4x12 (goes to about 85hz vs 100hz on a 4x12). So, it's a small one hander 4x12 equivalent...
...if you're standing in the right place. "Where did my highs go?" (Adjusts eq, stand in front) "ahhh icepicks!" You do eventually get used to it.
Paying off a 4x12 right now so I can friggin move and still hear myself, but I'll probably never sell the Thiele.
It's the only "metal" 1x12 cab. Glad the DSL40C wasn't the first DSL I played, the 1x12 open back really changes it vs a 1960a.
Could you tell us what you do at Volvo? This video was epic!
Thanks! We’re simulating the production processes, like robot welding, painting and ergonomics
@@JohanSegeborn thanks! I own a Volvo, play guitar, and love your channel!
Johan, have you ever demo'ed a Sovtek Mig60??
I liked both cabinets with that driver. The Mesa is a little bassier and more open sounding, the Marshall a little more forward. I think they would actually sound pretty great together, if you had one of each.
Thanks Gemma!
Sounds like the difference between room and hall ...its the Marshall for me sounds big warm and clear ..the boogie is sharp harsh and compressed !...sweet home tones cool
Thanks Gerry! :-)
do you have a favorite 2x12 cab? Currently getting rid of my emperor and bruno 2x12s to get one, amazing sounding 2x12. do you like fanes in 2x12s? what should i be looking at? thanks
Tour Manager: So you want a Thiele 1x12 or a 4x12 for a show? They sound pretty the same.
Guitarist: Still going for the 4x12 because they work as penis extensions.
I went on craigslist and got the cheapest Peavey speaker and a cabinet that was missing the amp. It works for my grab and go cab. It sounds a bit treblier than the bassman closed back, but it is a lot cheaper and easier to carry for less important jams. That is as scientific as I got with it.
That live of EV drivers is quite interesting, I use a EVM15L in a custom built TL606 cabinet for bass. The original design allows the cabinet to be used for bass and guitar by covering part of the shelf port. I'd love to see you do a review on one with guitar!
Hi! I play a vibrolux trough a TL606 EVM15L cab here actually but I didn’t cover the port. Gonna try that too! ua-cam.com/video/bHf4m-TdbaM/v-deo.html
Do a mark 1 boogie please
Johan, you just had to post this the day before my empty 1960A cab arrives, didn't you? I'm going to block two of the speaker holes and run it as a 1961A 2x12 cab. :-)
Hahaha! I actually have a actual 1961a cab available that we can compare to a 1960a on Friday
@@JohanSegeborn That would be awesome! Thank you my friend! Either way, the tone from anything you play through always has "The Johan Tone", and that's a recipe for success!
Am I crazy or did I just hear shades of "Ladies Room" in that opening riff, Johan???!
Hahaha! You did indeed!
@@JohanSegeborn YES!!!
I love my pair of Thiele cabs. They aren't perfect sounding, but I bought the pair for $500 so I am not complaining. For their footprint, a Mesa Thiele cab with an EVM-12L is massive sounding. The low end is more apparent with the Thiele over the Marshall cab. I tune down & use a Mutron Octave Divider, so I like the low end resolution offered by the Thiele.
You do realize that Mesa changed the dimensions to fit a Mark 1 head on top of it. The dimensions aren't the same as the calculated values for a Thiele cab. The original cabs were really meant for PA work. A friend did a 2x12 Thiele that sounded wicked for guitar. It was super heavy.
Interesting, I didn’t know that. Looks always puts performance in the back seat 🤣
What 1x12 cab would you recommend for a Victory 44 Sheriff?
johan, have you ever tried out the eminence gb12? hard to find a negative review and its cheap
I used them in 2x12. Good new speaker with some old-shool-ish sounds. Has similar horrible, to my ear, top end fizz* like all new celestions compared to old pulsonics.
*Im talking about broken-in spekers with lots of hours on them.
Thank you. Doctor Segeborn !
i think given the technology mostly people using high gain sounds will profit from thiele cabs. if you play classic rock and blues, and maybe even classic metal the benefits you get from a thiele cab are either miniscule or you'd be better off soundwise with a classic marshall/laney/fender/orange cab, cause they might work better for those playing styles and amp sounds.
have you tried a 4x12 cab sound vs. (4) 1x12 cabs??
Thank you Johan!!
Thanks!
Cool video Jonathan, thanks.... FWIW, I liked the MB cabinet better.
I just found this video... That written, I've built and used TL806 cabinets since EV released the designs in the '70s. In fact, I've even used EV designed TB series boxes for SROs designed back in the late '60s. At any rate, I find that the Marshall 1933 sounds better. I'm still satisfied with the TL806, but the 1933 sounds better.
And as always the best sound would be a blend of the two 🎸
I feel like trying to get more low end out of a guitar cab is kinda futile in a classic rock context, since you're going to have to fight with the bass player over that sonic space anyway. For metal and down tuned stuff it's probably awesome though!
Yeah classic rock is a very conservative style :-)
That is why I prefer 10" speakers.
Meet you in the " Ladies Room". Nice riff.
Thanks, I’m a huge Kiss fan!
The Boogie cab sounds more rounded and with more bass but I prefer the Marshall. I think it sounds more to a classic guitar and cuts better through the mix.
Perfect let’s go, sounds like the all black one is the cheaper one, I like the sound of the Gray one more, the winter vs a Rolling Cube vs Boss Kianna. But the black one cut through the mix better.
Thanks Jacob
with such close mic'ing are we really hearing what a cabinet does in the room? I never put my ear so close to a speaker cabinet, I hear the sum of the speaker and what ever the cabinet does from a reasonable distance
I use 3 mics here: room, center and edge. The more room mic I blend in the more similar they sound
@@JohanSegeborn interesting, I would not expect that blending in more room would make them sound more similar. Great video and info. thanks from Santa Barbara, CA
Hi, is it possible to use two slant marshalls cabs into one marshall head?
Yeah absolutely. You can put them on the side if you wanna stack them
Isn’t the impedance different? Do you use your fender amps with different impedance l
The Showman is 8ohm actually. I used the Iron man 2 with the BF Bassman in the Jam to convert from 4-8
Like others, I prefer the Marshall cab for similar reasons. Maybe because it's the kind of sound we are more used to hear? The Mesa cab was definitely tight and clear, though.
Thanks!
I think it is more the application.
The bass guys seem more forward thinking with gear (I actually pull several ideas from them) and something like an optimized cabinet to help with clarity is pretty on point.
Guitar is more variable (just look at the different presentations various amps give). If you were looking at a "reference" design to compare various components, the wide body makes sense (even if that is not where you end up).
Oh, yes, I agree with you as well.
There are always two factors affecting our sound:
- What you like when playing by yourself.
- What actually works when playing with others.
I don't gig or anything, I was just a «low level» teacher, but I always taught my students to take the bass a notch down from where they liked it in order leave space for the bass guitar. Point proven that day I took a bass to the lesson and we had to match our frequencies in order to be able to hear each other at room level.
same baffle board and plywood material in both cabs?
Both are ply cabs. The thicknesses looked similar
Wow, never thought I would say this but I actually prefer the Marshall cabinet. I'm really missing some mids from the Mesa cab.
Thanks, it is middier but also boxier
@@JohanSegeborn Thank you for the great video and the amazing explanation of the Thiele parameters!
The mids are reduced from the Mesa cabinet because its a front loaded cabinet. Marshall is rear mounted, so it gives back more lower mids. Front loaded always gives a more open and clarity to the sound. Rear mounted gives you more body to the tone. These are the exact frequencies when session guys and engineers refer to “body”.
@@voxpathfinder15r How would the mounting of the speaker to the baffle make this much of a difference? I think this is more depending on open vs closed cabinet.
@@error8418 you can read about the difference here. celestion.com/blog/should-i-front-or-rear-mount-a-speaker-onto-the-cabinet-baffle/
You might want to check out the "detuned" guitar cabs that Kevin O'Connor of LondonPower.com talks about. I built a 1-15 detuned cabinet and it sounds great!
They both sound good, but I prefer the Marshall, and I bet I'd prefer it a lot more with a bass guitar in the mix.
Thanks!