Why Stacking Loudspeakers is Risky Business
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Tonight at 11:30pm EST, Matt and Gene discuss why stacking two speakers on top of each other can present an acoustical nightmare of problems. If you've got some extra speakers lying around thinking it's a good idea to do this, think again. We simulate and even measure two speakers vertically stacked to see how it affects the frequency response of the system.
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You are the guy that helps me through my nightshift! We have a typical saying in The Netherlands which is 'Meten is Weten' meassuring is knowing. Thats why I like to watch your content! Its great that you beat down the terrible virus! Cheers!
I'm very glad to see you're recovered in good healthsomething was to happen to you it would be a serious loss two obviously friends and family but also all of us and the audio community
My hi-fi has evolved over the last 40+ years. I won’t bore you with how I’ve have reached the current configuration, but you maybe interested in my observations. I’ve had this current configuration for 6 weeks, so relatively new.
I have 2 identical pairs of substantial floor standers. Each cabinet contains, from top to bottom:- bass driver, bass driver, coaxial mid-range/tweeter, bass driver, bass driver. The speakers are approx 9.5 feet apart and the second pair is stacked vertically on top of the first pair. They are located about 3 feet from the wall behind them. Each of the 4 speakers is powered by 1 of 4 identical monoblocks. I have 1 preamp that feeds all 4 monoblocks. The tweeter in the bottom floor stander is about 32 inches above the ground, which is relatively low, but, prior to the introduction of the second set of speakers, worked!
Prior to the introduction of the second pair of speakers, my listening chair was positioned about 11.5 feet from my speakers. That appeared to be the ‘sweet spot’. Now that there are 2 pairs of speakers the focal point has shifted. I’ve had to move my listening chair about 16 inches closer to the speakers and lower it by around 7 inches. This new sweet spot though, offers phenomenal detail, clarity and valance, with maybe a minuscule bass drop out, probably resulting from me sitting further away from the wall behind me. According to reliable sources my speakers have almost textbook on and off access linearity. That of course may have shifted because I’ve stacked them. I have observed that the tweeters are more directional and the sweet spot has shrunk but is more finely focused.
I don’t think 6 weeks is sufficient to give a totally accurate assessment. Time will tell. Oh, I’ve been meticulous in using identical speaker cables and XLR interconnects.
Any comments or observations, welcomed.
Watched an entire 1hr replay of something I would never do...... Well done guys! The both of you together is a great team, and a super easy and educating watch. (love the new mic)
I can easily hear you guys loud and clear! Thanks Gene, for making the adjustment! I really do appreciate it!
Gene, alive and kicking. So good to see you back at it! Watch out expensive cables, Gene is back on the scene. :-)
Another stellar podcast. I'm a hobbyist speaker builder and learning so much from your channel.
Excellent. 2 yr old video just saved me $500!
Thank you for the video. I've been experimenting with placing 2 Paradigm floorstanders side by side in a corner of the room for vinyl mono playback to emulate listening through one monitor. I believe this is horizontal stacking. So far I prefer it to playing a mono signal through a separated pair of stereo speakers. Seems to give more solid and detailed presentation. Though I'm likely creating the problems you mention.
Hello Gene glad to see that your doing better I've been following you for quite a few months ago I enjoy the information that you're providing also enjoy listening to Matt as well keep it the good work
The designer of the Tektons is Eric Alexander...I am extremely interested in getting a pair of the Double Impacts...and am extremely glad to see Gene doing well.
Gene, you've a great knowledgeable guy with Matt, does great presentation. Once upon a time, vertically and side stacked due to space constraints. Well, needless to say, I made space for my speakers as the sound was awful stacked. Now I've been educated why. Smile more Gene, you beat the odds. You made it through! We're all happy for you. You have another chance at life!👍👏
My cousin used to have stacked Quad electrostatics.
And yes, he had a custom frame built to accomplish this.
Comb filtering is very audible. Listen to audio which is running through a "flanger". (An audio effect device.) A flanger mixes the original signal with a delayed signal which produces "comb filtering". The delay time is varied (swept) automatically with an LFO to produce a "swirling" sound when combined with the original signal. On a scope, the comb filtering resembles an accordion bellows as the peaks and troughs vary with the swept delay. Some flangers can be set to "manual" control which allows the user to set the delay time which doesn't vary because the LFO is out of the circuit.
This makes it easy to produce static comb filtering which can the be A-B'd with the original signal. It is very easy to audible detect comb filtering using a flanger.
I believe Tectronix runs the outer tweeters as mids, the centre tweeter being the actual, standard tweeter. From what I've seen on their YT videos, he crosses over the outer tweeters to the woofers much lower than you would ordinarily dare. The rationale being: the combined mass of the outer tweeters is much lower than most midrange drivers (great for dynamism) and since each outer tweeter is only being driven at 1/6th of the power (in the case of a 6 driver array) they can get away with crossing them much lower. Reviews are good I see.
I should add. The arrangement has all the benefits of a coaxial design with less of the drawbacks such as intermodulation distortion.
TL;DW: Stack speaker drivers of the same type vertically, with woofers closer to the walls. Use alignable crossovers to control horizontal interaction of different speaker types.
40:10 Stacked subs - kind of like listening to base in an anechoic chamber. Great stuff!!! Thank you.
Gene and Matt , Thank you for another great vídeo . This is like going to college but a little more interesting 🔊🔊🔊🔊🎼😁. I Hope the channel keep growing and we keep learning a little more. We keep praying that you can get back with your family and also stay healthy. I Think you Can call us ( AUDIOHOLICS ARMY ) 🙋🏻♂️. We keep helping and listening 👂 !
I like that AH Army!
OPTIMUS VADER thank you! We really appreciate your support. It’s folks like you that are helping us keep this going. We have lots of plans. We do a lot of cool acoustic science that nobody ever sees. We plan to start recording this so folks can see what we do.
Matthew Poes , Gene and the rest of the family of AUDIOHOLICS are more than welcome . Like i was telling Gene , I being watching that channel for few months . I can said I learn more those few months ( Audio/video/ home theaters ) than my entire life reading magazines ! You guys really bring good information with real facts ( no pay like some other reviewers) also got experience, knowledge plus honesty . I am not a millionaire but in whatever I can help i would be here . By the way i got me a Copy of the third edition of Sound Reproduction by FLOYD E.TOOLE( sounds reproduction Bible 😁🔊🎼👂) thanks to you guys . God bless you guys and most success to your future 🔊🔊🔊🙋🏻♂️.
@@optimusvader7823 We better watch out for this guy. He's amassing so much knowledge that he may eventually become a competitor ;) Thank you my friend.
Audioholics lol, I don’t think he will turn to the DARKSIDE. Matt is like Bill gates but in sound reproduction . A real blessing for AUDIOHOLICS. 😁🔊🔊🔊. Have a wonderful week guys!
This was a common (not smart) thing people did back in the day. They tended to be party speakers like cerwin vega. It was mostly about "loud". I also remember seeing dissimilar speakers stacked. The concept? evidently, one speaker was better in the treble, the other bass....sooo...
So tempting to flip stack for more output as I’m one to clip/ax out system. Seems if more is needed then it’s a full replacement / upgrade to a speaker designed for the job. Great RnD and share.
I disregard you reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage honestly you guys are great amazing information always great to get to listen in on some true experts.
Good to see you healthy again.
I will try adjusting the pad on my flip stack dynaco’s wish I had more speakers.
good to see you back in the saddle Gene... God bless!
software he used for crossover design: VituixCAD :)
Thanks. I spent 5 minutes googling for bit2ix
thanks guys! that was quite educational for me!
Hmm, stacked Dynaco A25's sounded pleasant to my ears.
Thank you for the work put into this video, very informative.
I have had my Klipsch stacked for years on old Yamaha A-B for years now and I'll never un-stack them, they are truly best sound!
But my ears 65 years old and had k horn forty years ago... digital junk on sound system's is a better topic, more important anyways.
Thanks for sharing, truly 🙏 enjoy you guy's and your understanding over the year's.
Man...I'm searching for reasons NOT to stack my Klipsch forte IIs. I'm picking up the 2nd pair tomorrow. Guess I'll be stacking lol
@8:15 Gene invents the subwoofer stand.
I don't notice the phasing and lobing issues with flip stacking or sideways stacking with 4 different pairs of 15" 3way CV cabinets. For the the bass is boosting
Hey guys! Glad to see you are ok gene👍🏻👍🏻
My father was an early audiophile. He carried a 45 of a Bach fuge around with him while auditioning speakers. He ended up with Quad ESL 57's. That's what I grew up with. Fast forward, I have stacked ESL 57's and am running them with Velleman 8010's at 65 watts of tube power. Am I fooling myself when I think this setup sounds quite good?
I don't know what those CV's at the beginning would sound like, but I can tell you they are going to be LOUD lol. And sometimes that is all CV owners care about. Judging from how they looked and that they had handles on them maybe they were for a DJ set up or something?
The best CVs have always been great sounding, but the newer ones are designed more for sound quality, rather than just for sensitivity
Thanks guys. Love the videos.
Used to run stacked large advents w/ an active crossover i built myself. It was a great sounding system from a bass standpoint but I'm pretty sure I had to have lost midrange clarity as a result. Stacked advents certainly was a popular thing in the 70s, but I think i've improved my overall sound quality with more modern gear operating as it was meant to be.
i really do appreciate your vids. i honestly get lost in math and measurements, but i know u guys have many years of experience of listening and making a system sound good. i realize sound quality is subjective. i guess 90% subjective, then 10% to fine tune with math. rather than proving why something doesn't work, can you educate us on how to get most out of a system? i like both 2 ch and multi ch. they both have strengths n weaknesses...just different. why can't there be something that does both, versus have to pick one over the other? tech is available to do it. these vids seem to just reinforce a discussion that has been ongoing and a dead end, imo...rather than focus on solution that makes both sides rethink how we listen.
What about disabling one of the tweeters in the stacked?
Ive been wondering about disabling 1 tweeter also and how to keep the ohms at acceptable levels......?
Great stuff guys... thanks!!
How on earth did these guys do an hour on stacked speakers and never once mentioned Large Advents?
Haha i am a cerwin vegafan and everyone is always stacking their speakers! I have given thought to doing it. Ready to hear what you all have to say about it.
I've stacked my 15s and found they didnt sound good at all CV for life
@@dannyvance5571 i watch your videos and sometime i think i see you on the facebook groups! Hope you are doing well man! CV for life! Finishing up a set of re30s right now.
I thought I recognized your name ! I'm in the group I ,havent been very active lately with all this crap in the world going on! And right on to.the 38s I bet they will sound awesome
Yes, Stack-On!
I have had my klipsch staked on the old A-B switch for six years and tested tested, I'll NEVER un-stack them.
I can alway turn B off any time, but I don't...
:)
Its good to see you better gene.hi matt where is james?
Darts mad 180 socially distancing
@@PoesAcoustics hope your all well.stay safe.
Why do most audio nerds look like dungeons and dragons nerds and not music people??
Audioholics is my go to place for reviews and information. It’s a shame that facts and knowledge is not sexy and don’t attract as much as the esoteric bs that I sometimes watch to amuse/annoy myself.
Gald you survived. A true insperation. 👍
Good stuff. Thanks.
Is there a formula or basic 'rule' for the distance of the drivers with the highest frequency it plays ? For example, my midrange drivers in my d.i.y front towers are cut off over 3khz, whats the maximum distance is should have installed them ?
At the end of the day it all matters on how it sounds to your ear not what a computer program is showing you.
Oh also those are d9s! So.many people stack their 15s!
The JTRs you tested were probably the 215s, I have 212's and they're an inch under 5 foot, big but not as big as the 215s which are 6 foot tall.
mechtheist they were the 212rt I just had the height wrong. We’ve posted the pic before of me measuring them.
I reviewed them for AV Nirvana so you should check it out when I post the review. It has full spinorama data.
@@PoesAcoustics I can't wait for that review.thank you for your work.
@@PoesAcoustics Well, I bet you're glad you didn't choose the 215s to review, not just more than a foot taller, they weigh 60lb more. Lots of largish speakers don't weigh as much as the 215s out-weigh the 212s. I'll be looking forward to your review.
mechtheist to be honest, I simply reviewed what Jeff delivered. Had he chosen the 215 I would have chosen that.
The 215 actually weighs very little for its size. If you look at the RBH speakers, their total weight is a lot more. In fact the 212 weighs, as I recall, less than the Polk L800’s. It’s something I commented on in my review. Because Jeff uses a lot of neo motors and plywood enclosures, his speakers weigh a lot less than they would otherwise.
But yeah I’m glad we didn’t try to measure the 215’s. Those are just too big. We would have had a lot of trouble getting them up on the stand safely.
My hope is that as Gene, James, and I expand our measurement work, we can afford to build a small anechoic chamber and possibly obtain some new measurement hardware. This will allow us to more accurately characterize speakers and do so more efficiently. It takes hours to measure a speaker and process all the data as of right now.
What about stacking Bose901s ? Should I use the art deco stands or not?
Hey Gene, got some information on the design software discussed? Thanks man ✌️
M. R. VituixCAD 2
Here's a question if like to ask. I'm not too up on audioaholic stuff. I just enjoy decent sound at a much lower budget than most audioaholics spend on their gear.
17 or 18 years ago I had a Yamaha Sub (yes I know all audioaholics will turn their nose up at it) that was 120 watts 19 Hi z. Now to me that thing kicked add. It was very loud to me and the bass was real deep. It was a YST SW150 with two 8" subwoofer speakers in it.
Anyway I sold it about two years after buying it because I wanted something with more power. So I bought a Behringer B2092A. I immediately regretted the decision. The Behringer has a noisey powersupply , the subwoofer speakers are rubbish and bottom out easily , there's s whole lot of port chuffing and it barely hits 30Hz. The Yamaha made this thing look like it's worth €20.
Anyway. A few months ago I decided it's time to get rid of that thing. Watching movies with it powered on is annoying because of the him coming from the powersupply and the bass isn't much better than my Sony SS F6000P which go down to just below 40Hz.
Anyway last week I decided to look for a temporary subwoofer to do me until I can afford something much better and a su woofer that doesn't have a noisey powersupply with decent frequency response. I found something I'm sure I'll get bashed for but remember it's temporary for now. I bought a Yamaha NSSW100. Yes I know it's only 50watts to 100Watts peak but aparently it will do 25Hz with a 10" subwoofer speaker. I only have a room Of 12' x 11 to fill with 7' ceiling.
But then curiosity got the best of me and I went on eBay and searched the old Yamaha subwoofer I had. I found one in Germany. I asked if it's good and the seller said it was tested for 30 minutes and it works perfectly. The seller had over 8000 positive with 99% positive rating so now I have that subwoofer on the way too 😂😂😂😂
Anyway sorry about the long drawn out post. My question is would it be a stupid idea to use both of the subwoofers at the same time on my 6.1 (it will be 6.2 if I use both subwoofers) r should I use the one that has the best bass response?
Would mixing the two subwoofers mess up the sound and bass response in the room? I'll probably experiment with them and see myself anyway but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
Yes I know some might reply with at this price range and power out it's just a woofer or some other hatred like that but it's just temporary with the NS SW100. The YST SW150 I bought because it was the first subwoofer I ever owned do if it works perfectly for the €119 I paid for it I will be keeping for nostalgia and use it until it kicks the bucket.
He has a few videos about using multiple subs I suggest you look at some of those. You would have to play with placement and it would be best if the subs had adjustments on them or a seperate dsp unit. And having measuring equipment and sofware wouldn't hurt either. It can get kind of complicated. But honestly, you already have them go ahead and give it a try. Move them around and play with them and see what it sounds like. If it isn't better, don't do it. If it sounds better to you and works then its bonus I guess.
And NEVER feel bad about what you have, what you can afford or what is available to you. Never worry about what someone else thinks just because they can afford more expensive gear. Sometimes you can make some cheap stuff sound pretty decent if you set it up correctly. A lot of us, unless we were born rich started out with hand me downs, flea market stuff or cobbled together stuff. When I was younger I was using old tv speakers from those big old console tvs from the 70's that had stereos built into them and car speakers. Or whatever old speakers I could find at garage sales. Then when I really started building speakers, like using a book with formulas and stuff for proper cabinets and crossovers I was using drivers and parts from radio shack. When you get more money buy better stuff, if that is what you want. If not, get what you do want instead.
@@biteme263 I decided not to use two subwoofers. The NS SW309 is more than enough for this room.
Where's Hugo? I liked him.
Rinde R show Who is Jack?
But seriously, what happened to Hugo?
I think i remember gene saying he's doing real estate or something making a bunch of money, he was a Boost.
JA has been doing it for 30 years or more, probably longer than you've been alive Matt
Hi, can you please explain what is the difference between this and a "normal " line array, in a measurement standpoint?
it's discussed in the video.
Yes but not in a polar diagram:-) (x vs y)
Sometimes a person has no choice but to stack. I have to stack my Cerwin Vega towers and subs🙄 not that I want to but.. my wife got a curio cabinet 🤢 theres no room for it except for me to stack. I have no choice and the glass will just 🤢🤢🤢🤢 vibrate soooo... Yeah FUN stacking is the least of my worry the vibration of glass will be annoyance enough. I think I'm going to get sick thinking about it.
Sounds like your wife ain’t good for your health
Wait what is the program used by Matt again, I did not catch it. And would the vertical dispersion be any better if the top or bottom tweeter is disabled?
Pedapudi Vishnuram vituixCAD 2.
Yes if you disabled the second tweeter the response would be better. Just bad lobing errors from the miss being too far apart. But then, what would the point of doing this?
@@PoesAcoustics nothing much just asking🙂, maybe to improve frequency response, but I will definitely not stack loudspeakers. Another question, is the vertical dispersion worse due to 'wave cancellation' i.e. waves not in phase?
Thanks for replying!
Pedapudi Vishnuram in essence that is what causes the vertical lobing errors. When the distance between drivers is great relative to the wavelength they operate at the difference in distance causes cancelation. That is why drivers can be farther apart at lower frequencies.
Hello! Does XTZ M8 series with so many tweeters introduce some more problems than benefits to the system? Maybe not same theme, but they very so different than others.
Toomas-V that isn’t a flop stacked speaker. That is a speaker designed with a 6 tweeter array that places their center to center placing very close. Now if those tweeters were used straight with no shading or bandwidth control, it would have terrible comb filtering and an overly narrow response. Likely it is fine, as you can’t achieve THX certification if the response is a mess.
I've been running stacked Paradigm studio 40's as my mains. Both bi-amped and each speaker set getting about 200 watts RMS for almost two decades. I don't invert the top speaker. When I A B the speakers and run one set compared to two, the primary difference I hear is a about a 4db increase in volume. Running stacked speakers certainly doesn't sound worse in my room. Why do I do it? I like having 4 paradigm studio 40 V2 tweeters up front. I run 12 identical tweeters in my system. All Paradigm studio Version 2.
What's the model of the dayton audio?
Rs100 and ND25
I think this is one of those cases where obsessing over a line versus just using your own common sense I. e. your ears would be more useful. I've seen this design work and the idea that we rely on ceiling reflections to hear space is just wrong. typically speakers companies even try to broaden their dispersion while reducing vertical dispersion.
if you're having ceiling reflection you need a rug to help dampen the vertical reflections.
from what youre saying it seems like you're just modeling things and have never actually tried it.
We measured 2 stacked speakers in this presentation.
It seems you don’t know the psychoacoustic science very well and failed to listen carefully to what I did in the video. It was very clear that I measured and modeled for precisely this reason. I modeled a theoretical speaker (which is how all modern speakers are designed, the models are very accurate) and I took a real bookshelf speaker and flip-stacked and measured. I showed real measurements. They behaved exactly like the model.
As for the role of vertical reflections, it bugs me when folks watch my videos and make these absolutist statements. That I am just wrong. I don’t Speak from the hip. These videos are well researched and I have taken many credit hours of graduate courses in acoustical physics. I’ve been around this industry and acoustics for a long time too. My work is routinely peer reviewed by leading experts. When I say that ceiling reflections play an important role in our perception of space, that is absolutely an accurate statement. It also plays a critical role in our perception of the sound image elevation.
One of the problems with creating a very screwed up vertical response is that it messes with our HRTF. We perceive elevation and process sounds coming from below or above based on the HRTF which is the peaks and dips dictated by the pinna. When the brain expects those sounds to have the same characteristics as that of the direct sound such that any spectral differences are caused by the HRTF, then when it sees what I showed, it throws off the brains ability to process that.
Linked Devices, your UA-cam name gives you away. A millennial who has no idea what he's talking about. You can't stack speakers on top of each other and get good sound period. I've seen tons of videos and pics with people like you doing this and to think you people think your getting good sound tells more of a story. This subject dates back many years and had you done your research, you would know this. Matt is 💯 percent correct. Get over it...
@Linked Devices
Feel free to do as you please. Your feelings don't change the science. If bad sounds good to you, fine enjoy bad. But don't try to counter science with your feelings because feelings are subjective and individualistic.
Paying attention to what you're being told before commenting indicates an understanding of what you are being told. In fact, your counter demonstrates you didn't pay attention gives your critique less credibility. You spoke without acknowledgment that you actually heard what was said. They tried it.
@@kirkcunningham6146
Millenials do not have a monopoly on ignorance. Assuming someone's age based on their preferences is illogical. I met plenty of old fools too.
Stacking speakers is ridiculous ,who ever came up with it should be locked up.
did i just see RBH speakers in Gene home like this?
No you didn't.
I swear there was a photo of your speakers with stalked speakers beside your original mains , or were you demoing some speakers like that
@@housbinpharteen7445 They are only stacked for bass not a bunch of unoptimized mids and tweeters like the examples we showed here. It's all discussed in this broadcast.
Aw come on.....! in the early 90s Janet Jackson had a video and her home system was like this lol !
So buying 12 pairs of speakers and stacking them 4 wide & 3 high on each side isn't a good idea? Shit what am I gonna do with all these now?
What did you end up doing with all those now?
Please get some Tekton speakers in for review and measure.
We will request for sure.
@@Audioholics That would be awesome gene been waiting to see if that would happen, would be amazing if he sent you the MOAB.
Gene you should answer questions $20 a peace 1 question 20 bucks off youtube
Stupid idea. Speakers are designed. Doubling them is always a bad idea.
FYI gofundme money should not be taxable to you. Make sure you split that out for your accountant
Really? How is that possible?
Rel promotes that their subs are designed to be stacked.
scarmenl not what we are discussing. There is nothing wrong with stacking subs. The only argument I would make against stacking subs is that for many people doing so would lead to less optimal bass performance. Ideally, placing subs throughout a room in a multi-sub array has the benefit of smoother and more even bass. Stacking subs doesn’t do that, it simply increases output.
If cost were no object, you could stack subs floor to ceiling and side to side to create a planar wave which would eliminate any reflections or modes from the side walls or ceiling/floor. It leaves only the length modes. That would lead to very smooth bass.
However I would argue that intentionally eliminating bass reflections isn’t a good thing. It makes more sense to create a low frequency reverberant field, not eliminate it. Bass reflections, which create this reverberant field, plays a critical role in our sense of space. Eliminating it would reduce how real the system sounds.
The nice thing about the multisub approach is that it maintains the low frequency reverberant field while maximally exciting modes in a more even/consistent fashion. The law of large numbers tells us that this arrangement reduces the chance that any single spatial location will be different from any other single spatial location, thus good spatial consistency. That makes EQ easy and a good responsive readable, while keeping all of the low frequency spatial information.
People that play double stacked or side by side multiple pairs of speakers, who claim it sounds good, like it because of the increased bass and efficiency.
I would doubt they know what a good soundstage or imaging is. They just want to move air.
Good video Gene and Jeffrey Dahmer.
I hate to break it to you Gene, but basing a business model on UA-cam involves a huge amount of counter-party risk. Big tech like Google can demonetize you in a heartbeat and your recourse is almost non-existent. Don’t trust big tech and pursue another path. Best wishes.
I'm never basing our model on a single revenue stream again going forward. The editorial site will always bring in a revenue stream but UA-cam memberships and sponsorships can really stabilize our revenue stream going forward.
Galts Ghost today’s world is such that you can’t survive on one modality alone. You have to be everywhere and you have to diversify monetary streams to survive. We had been diversifying before but we are ready to take it to the next level now. We get a lot of traffic through our UA-cam channel now. It’s not second fiddle to the editorial site anymore.