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Killer Fumes NEVER Do This Before You Weld
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2015
- Andy explains the extreme dangers of fumes, created by welding on metals that have been cleaned with some very common household cleaners. He goes on to advise other, safer methods.
I've had phosgene poisoning from soldering copper. I spent 3 months in the hospital. 13 months with a chest tube. I am missing 1/3 of my left lung.
sorry to hear.
That sounds horrible! But how did you get phosgene poisoning from soldering copper (pipe?) ???
@@andrewscott1456 copper pipe was to an a/c unit. The left over freon in the lines got heated. Heated freon turns to phosgene.
@@jpllpj9910 Oh wow. Who knew that??? Sorry to hear about your injury.
@@jpllpj9910 Holy shit, damn dude! Can't ever leave your guard down can ya huh... sounds brutal. Guess whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger! Hang in there!
You really scared the hell out of me even though I do not know how to weld yet! Thanks for the info!
Man I start work as a aluminium welder, and I don't know what to do now. I knew this is not healthy, but I didn't know it is so dangerous
@@CavemanFromBasementPL Buy a PAPR welder helmet+ventilation system, or ask one from the company you work or refuse to work, also you need ventilation in the shop where you weld it to remove the toxic fumes, shower everyday very well to remove the toxic fumes from the skin, and you will be fine, dont ever break the rules and wear PPE, even a small cheap respirator that is used for fumes and spray painting can save your lungs and life.
I've always preped my metals with my grinder and wiped them down with acetone before welding. Makes for better welds.
Just a quick correction, from horse's mouth - Grandpa told me phosgene smells of new-mown grass or hay - he survived being gassed with it in WW1, by the time you can smell it you're in danger of death. Wouldn't let him fight in WW2, but he still won a George Medal for gallantry pulling people out of collapsed and burning buildings in the Blitz... still smoked constantly, too.The name's a clue: Phos (light) gene (made) - it doesn't need heat to create it from chlorinated solvents, just the presence of oxygen and a source of UV light so the solvents NEED to be kept in sealed, dark containers (e.g. steel cans/drums). Sunlight is strong enough, a welding arc that will give you a ten in minutes is WAY more than enough.
holy shit your grandpa is a badass. world war one!?
Yes it smells like a mowed lawn
Flap disc and a quick wipe off with acetone always works. Great vid
A friend who i worked with died of a brain tumour. It may have been just his luck but im sure the fact that we worked in a dirty factory filled with fumes killed him that bit quicker
It defiantly did
Thanks for the information man, I'm a 3rd week college student and its good to know that stuff. I want to have a long welding career and a long life and I dont want to die from shit I suck up from my welding
Wow, I must have been extremely lucky because I taught myself how to weld, stick, wire feed and mig and I didn't know anything about these dangerous fumes. I used brake cleaner and carb cleaner several times to make sure the metal was clean before welding it. There are two things that "might have saved me." Even though brake cleaner and carb cleaner evaporate quickly I still blew the metal dry with compressed air. Second: I've always wanted a masonry building that was safe to weld in instead of the 200 year old, highly flammable barn that is all I have. So not having a safe indoor area to weld in I've always welded outside and so maybe there was a breeze on my side that took the fumes or most of them away. I did learn NOT to weld galvanized steel, especially when leaning directly over it. I got really sick. Now I try to get any galvanizing off before welding if I can't get away from using something other than galvanized. Now when I have to weld galvanized, I place a large fan near the weld site and turn it on high blowing the fumes away from me. I read a few booklets on welding as well as a book on welding but I don't recall any of them having any warnings about what not to use to clean metal or the dangers of welding galvanized. Maybe the writers thought readers would already know that. They did warn about using safety glasses, gloves, ear plugs and etc., but nothing about chemicals. Thanks so much for the excellent warning!
That or wear a good 3M respirator while you're welding Galvinize steel Expeacially pieces that you can't get to all of it with a grinder and yes welding outdoors also helps significantly as well. It also depends on how much welding your doing. If you're only going to be welding for roughly 5 to 10 minutes at most then the fumes probably aren't going to bother you. Of course everyone has their own tolerance to it. That and you can also set up a small fan on low. Just to blow the fumes away from your face. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference that can make. It just little things like that. You'd be surprised at the difference between opening all your doors so you have plenty of air circulation or even doing it outside like you said actually makes. You definitely don't want to weld in a small closed up room..that's a big no no. Then your kinda asking for it. That and you're welding shield also helps alot too because it deflects alot of the fumes away from your face. So it's just a matter of being smart about it and doing little things like this to help prevent you from inhaling too much of it.
@@JoshSmith-wo7zw your 3m respirator will do NOTHING to protect you from Phosgene gas. This is nasty stuff.
you where very lucky, small amounts of these dangerous cleaners can remain on surfaces and in cavities and hollow parts. Very small amounts of these products can produce sufficient to badly injure or kill you.
Idk about what you actually used but my guess is you used non chlorinated brake cleaner or you might've been just lucky enough for it to flash off before you hit it. The real deal when hit while still wet is fucking brutal. Phosgene can become lethal at about 4 parts per million, which is fucking nothing. Had a buddy put himself in the hospital welding on something that just had the faaaintest bit of chlorinated cleaner on it. He said it was a quick TSSST of a small smokey whisp he saw opening his eyes after popping a tack down. Next thing he knew he just couldn't breathe and it was in a "mean way". Fucked him up for about a month. Don't think he ever really got his lungs back to full strength yet. This was like 15 years ago.
Very true!!!!! I noticed a few times that when the chlorinated (red can) Brakeleen was used around my welding or on it I would start to feel strange and a lil queasy and lightheaded after a few minutes. I got to the point where I realized that thats what was causing it. Wasn't sure why but now I know!!!
I Found out like you did, started feeling sick after cleaning asphalt off a truck tailgate to weld up cracks.
Great advice, never knew brake cleaner was amonia based. Could you do a followup video about the hazards of coatings, such as galvanizing?
Madalf71 If you're going to use galvanised steel, first going back a small area that u intend to weld on, that will cut back on spatter & dangerous fumes.
Yeah first grind off the (zink coating. Then clean. I use indeed brake cleaner or tr10 (thinner).
Do you mean chlorine based? BTW, there is chlorine free brake cleaner that Finnigan (Roadkill) uses and is apparently available in auto parts stores.
@Dennis Young It only occurs with heat and argon shielding gas. You can use brake cleaner as long as its non-chlorinated (alcohol based). The specific 'danger' compound in regular brake cleaner in trichloroethylene or 'trike'.
Not an issue for us here in the UK/Europe as chlorinated solvents were banned for consumer and general industrial use years ago!
zinc at boiling point creates zinc oxide fumes that are toxic. that’s all i know
Great Tip Dude!!! Nice to see a welding channel concerned about their patrons but I would suggest a respirator while welding as well in the video...
Im a welder and i have had metal fume fever twice and both times i had a respirator on for one of the times. Use the correct filters for the love of God!
Thank you for this info! Im new to welding and only use steel wire brush on a drill to clean it. But now ill be sure to use acetone or dish soap on my practice pieces. I grab scrap from my work and it has allll kinds of degreasers and chemicals from its past life. I never considered it. Thanks again!
Was welding in a close booth and I got sick for 2 to 3 days... Was welding carbon steel and had paint I guess the fumes suspended in the air and I was inhaling them for hours when I stop welding I was feeling very nauseous wanted to throw up then got fever and for 2 days wasn't feeling good be careful take care of your health.
@Dennis Young do you think your pretty much guaranteed to breath bad shit in or will wearing a respirator protect you from all of it
Does welding classes even mention about breathing in fumes? I would think they would?
Wow !!! I never even thought about this. So glad to watched this very life saving video.
Great advice. This is extremely important for ALL welders/fabricators to know about.
LISTEN
Another huge part of the equation is ventilation. I use a high CFM vacuum hose rigged up when I work. I have a lot more energy at the end of the day. It’s a must for career guys
If that’s not available then some gentle cross ventilation from a fan from a distance.
Look up "air multipliers", they turn a compressed air line into a high output blower - no moving parts. (not Dyson - they existed in industry long before Dyson copied the principle for office and home fans.)
That's Dyson's secret actually. Like the cyclone vacuum cleaner and the air moving fan, just translated common industrial equipment into domestic or office configuration.
Thanks for this helpful and concerning upload.your knowledge and experience is very much appreciated.
Keep informing the people...
Non-chlorinated brake cleaner is your friend. I do a mix of metal fabrication, equipment repair welding, and automotive work. For working with new metal in a tidy shop environment I use acetone. If I have to work on a piece of nasty old equipment with years of grease in cracks and tight joints that I can't get to I use brake cleaner, which I have on hand in abundance anyways for doing automotive work. To ensure safety I NEVER have chlorinated (red can) brake cleaner in my shop. I buy non-chlorinated (green can) brake cleaner a case at a time from whichever parts store is selling it the cheapest. This prevents any possibility of grabbing the wrong can off the shelf.
was about to say the same thing. and im a pro welder and brake clean is my go to, i buy it by the cases. im a custom automotive welder
Back in the late 80's I found out brake clean ( tricoethelene back then) transformed to phosgene when exposed to high frequency light. The welding process provided the light and heat to convert than gasify the phosgene. The MSDS sheet indicated this was possible. Today's brake clean is quite different so I can't confirm it would transform to phosgene but I'm sure it's nasty to inhale no matter what.
Not only light, the heat. If you spray a part off with a chlorinate brake clean. And decide to set it next to a space heater or anything of that sort due to inclement weather. It will turn the Chlorine when mixed with oxygen in the air into the phosgene gas we all want to avoid. “Not noted in the video, phosgene smells just like fresh cut grass.. first symptoms of exposure are, a hot burning sensation in the chest and back of the throat. Burning eyes and coughing. If you feel you smell that lovely fresh grass smell, immediately leave and ventilate the area. Remove all clothes that was exposed to the gas (yes is seeps into your clothing) and get a shower. Avoid drinking anything and do no induce vomiting if ingested somehow. It can take up to 48 hours for the effects of the gas to take hold. See a doctor if you have any inclination that you have been exposed. Also, take the can of brake clean to the doctor. This will help him realize what you’ve actually done to the lining of your lungs.”
Best wishes:
A former mechanic exposed to a lethal dose of Phosgene back in 2019
@@ben6592 I was cleaning out the inside of a tractor with break cleanbefore selling it once. It was hot as hell that day. I had the windows closed cause my coullege was preassure washing it at the same time. I was sweating to death and I started feeling dizzy. I thought nothing of it and countinued with my day after that. When I went to bed I got that smell of cut grass every few minutes, the smell only lasted for a few seconds and then it would come back. I googled my symptoms and thought for sure I was gonna die. After a couple of days it went away. I still remember that day like it was yesterday.
He stated that the heat does cause it to turn to Phosgene.
We use to use gasoline which I hated because of the smell and was not aware of the dish soap method . Internet wasn't a thing yet and just assumed this is how everyone did it .
I wouldn't clean hardly anything with bleech except clothes but I would clean metal with brake cleaner without thinking, this is really good to know!! I'm not a welder but have thought about learning. I think I'll find a safety course to take first.
I've been waiting for a long time, man from my experience. We don't use cleaners, we use grinders to clean the steal
I use acetone 😉. If I'm out of that I use xylene. Takes longer to evaporate but it seems like a good one. I'm not for sure about it tho. Guess I will have to research that. Thanks
I keep a 5 gallon HD bucket filled halfway with water and add 1 cup Dawn dish soap. I use a house hold toilet brush to scrub that on the metal prior to welding or paint. Cleans and degreases with no harmful side effects.
My grandpa died from welding for years. His lungs were damaged. He grew tired. Loss appetite. Sleeping alot. We took him to the ER and they admitted him. He was put in ICU and was placed on a ventilator as his lungs were filled with water. Almost at collapse. The doctor said nothing could be done. Make him comfortable. As the machine was working as his lungs. The doctors said it was due years life long of welding. Fumes destroyed his lungs overtime.
And why would there be any thumbs down on a video like this???great advice!!!
Thanks! We think it's golden advice!
I will agree about Brakleen. I worked for a guy that demanded I use it. I welded one part and quit welding those parts after one.
Thanks for heads up. I have used Brakleen on aluminum prior to TIG...never noticed anything but...
I worked pipeline so I only know that we just used grinders and wire brushes. All I know is don't weld or cut galvanized stuff I actually had a co-worker die from it. Another thing quit cutting into tanks or pipe that has gas fumes.
Always used simple green with hot water and scotch bright. That was 101 in the shop i started in. Ive been doing it the same way ever since. Steel gets scrubbed and dried before i even bring it in the shop......i thought everyone cleaned their metal this way, especially tube steel
Great video!! and thank you so much for this information, this is very important to know, I really appreciate it👍👍.
when i was taking SMAW welding certification the instructor made it very clear that if that voltage or electricity from the welder jumps on you, you only have a 1-3 percent chance of surviving. I have heard of people dying by welding near a bit of water on the floor, etc...
Thanks so much Andy some great safety tips I never knew.
Acetone absorbs into your skin and goes straight to your liver. I was tig welding a bit and got non alcoholic fatty liver disease
Fatty Liver Disease is caused by sugar typically.
just like the previous comments, ,,,, thanks for posting the video, i also did not know about the cleaners
Thank you for the great info! This deserves more attention
Glad it was helpful Bob!
The problem with acetone is the low flash point. If your shop uses it make sure never to keep more than 5 gallons around. I worked in a shop that kept a 55 gallon drum of it and the boss disclosed it to his insurance company after they asked about what chemicals were stored there. They cancelled the policy until it was removed except for 5 gallons.
I want to be a welder when I get out of high school for my full time job but there are so many health risks I just need to do research
Same bro
@J M asbestos
You'll be fine
Just where proper protection I’m the same situation as you
No matter what we do in life, or when we do it in life, we must continue to study and stay well informed.
Many shops now carry non chlorinated brake cleaner. I wonder if that's why.
thank you for the advice and no bs
You're welcome!
Im 16 in school we did some welding and i breathed in the smoke starzed coughing thanks for the advice.
I was soldering a/c condenser lines in. The lock out vaulves that hold the phreon in the condenser were leaking.
Check everything twice
Hell I use white vinegar overnight it takes off quite a bit of mill scale,great for copper too
It will make the copper dark.
thanks for the info. i have used brake cleaner before but wont use it again. I do not recommend acetone. it can be a fire risk.
THIS IS SOOMETHING I THOUGH ABOUT THAT IT WAS OBVIOUS TO ME WITH OUT EVER BEING A WELDER
Good info! Thanks for teaching this old dog a new trick!!
Thanks for the advice👍
Thanks for this
You're welcome
Thank you, I am just getting into welding, guess what I was gong to clean all my metal with.
Thanks for sharing, but I wish you would have suggested brands, it's hard finding the right stuff.
Wow! It's good to know. Thanks.
You're welcome!
I've been using isopropyl alcohol, works great. It evaporates so I can't see problem. Please let me know if this is dangerous, anyone
wow! thank you for sharing this information! i was about to forge a piece of metal i had lying around. this metal is a carbon spring steel which i etched with HCL acid but then didnt do anything with it for afew years. is HCL acid bad to use , does this leave a residue?
What an EXCELLENT video! Thanks for the Phosgene info. I’d never even heard of that. And don’t weld ANYTHING in a non ventilated area! Cheers! 🍺
Brake Kleen, thanks for that tip.
Are the other things like, starting fluid, rubbing alcohol, mineral spirits just as bad?
TSP seems to be okay?
I've got so many cleaners in the shop and plenty of Acetone and Dawn Detergent too.
I just started brazing and welding so your tip definitely saved me as i was going to try Brak-Kleen
TSP is great.
I use rubbing alcohol. Its been a champ in all types of projects
Great video, thanks for the heads up. Is there any danger from the natural smoke coming off of the flux weld
I almost used break cleaner a few days ago. I just thought it might be toxic, so I used acetone after I googled it. Dodged a bullet, damn! I'm gonna be way more careful from now on.
Thank you for the info buddy
Thanks man! Great advice, indeed.
Thank you for the video..sincerely!
Wow. I didn’t know that about Brakleen. Thanks
If I clean the mill flakes off with grinder, do I really need to degrease the shiny steel beneath?... Big thank you for this warning in the video ...I'm an amateur so learning bits
Good to know . Thanks
Thank you
there are non chlorinated brake cleaners.
True, but your first mistake will be your last.
Hey thanks .
How long does this type of exposure take to cause damage? I just started learning to weld and have already grinded the tungsten rods indoors with no mask.
Ive done the same and never had an issue. Kinda freaked out now lol
From what I've seen (not experienced at all) metal powder for the large part isn't what's dangerous. Grinding steel and stuff isn't a big deal. Do your research of course, I'm not sure about the toxicity of tungsten. There are metals like zinc, copper to an extent, and the metallic ingredients of tungsten carbide that can be very nasty when dry ground. The real trouble comes from grinding ceramics, and from the actual grinding belt itself. Here and there it isn't a big deal but silicosis from a grinding belt can probably do big damage in the long run without a mask AND good ventilation.
also, oxides. be careful handling iron and zinc oxide in fine particle form. don't breathe it in. maybe not a problem like silicosis but veery toxic acutely.
What about using muriatic acid on the metal to remove zinc. After the removal, you watch it off with baking soda and rinse thoroughly. Is it safe to weld directly after the washing processes?
He looks like a very nice person
thank you so much
Trichloroethylene or tetrachloroethylene is the dangerous component of brake cleaner that can produce phosgene if it is exposed to heat and shielding gas. Other chlorine compounds such as bleach won't do this - it's chlorinated hydrocarbons that are the danger.
Here in the UK/Europe its a non issue as chlorinated solvents were banned for consumer and general industrial use decade's ago!
Take care from the other side of the pond! 👍
Wow! Thank you for this information. Very much!
Thanks really good info.
You can get 100% acetone nail polish remover for a dollar per bottle
Thanks for the advice bro
I Just uploaded a video on my Channel "Fabbin Adventures" I talked about NOT using Brake Cleaner to clean your metal when welding and I added a link to this video. I hope its ok, but there is just not enough info on this out there. I figure we need to spread the word!
Great Video Guys!
Thank you for this advice!
As mentioned, Acetone does clean well and leaves no residue. However, it is also extremely flammable! So make sure your metal and everything around it is 100% dry before welding. You don't want to start welding and find out your Acetone can fell over and you're standing in a pool of it. Hope this helps! Safe and happy welding all :)
Acetone also evolves lethal gas at high temperature anaerobic (oxygen free) conditions.
Search "ketene lamp"...
So if I were to strip a zinc coating off steel using muriatic acid, rinse off with water and clean with acetone I should be good to weld right?
acetone does leave a residue... wiping with alcohol leaves a near clean surface
Thank you for this video !!
I am scared to use any cleaner on what I weld I just use a flapdisk to clean up the metal.
I accidentally touched a rag soaked in brake cleaner with the flame from my torch one and the fumes knocked me on my ass. literally knocked the wind out of me.
Wow.
Woo the hell makes steel cleaning with bleached ??
only an idiot.
In 1987 I was 14 I was experimenting melting a chrome door handle with a stick welder I remember breathing in horrible fumes.
I'v use baby wipes for smalls spots before welding the joints together
Prepsol wax and grease remover? Used in car paint prep. Is that any good?
glad i always just use a grinder on my metal lmfao. this sounds awful. i make a point to never use crap like brake cleaner, bleach, motor oil or anything i wouldn't be comfortable drinking with anything that im actually working on in my garage. especially when you're doing welding. i mean gosh, even stuff that's normally safe could burn and release nasty fumes when you're heating metal up to a bright red. now all im breathing in is that wonderful stick flux 😋
also, yeah, dawn soap is by far the best thing for removing oil. it'll take off everything down to bare metal. ive had hot rolled steel from lowes (don't shop there any more) that was slathered in this black crap. a bit of dish soap took it all off and left it clean enough to eat off. the thing i don't understand is that brake cleaner isn't enough for cleaning metal. i mean, isn't it important to take off the oxide layer as well?
thanks for the info
Only thing is acetone is highly flammable something you really don’t want around your weld shop. Probably a pressure wash would be best!
thank you didn't know that about break cleaner .
Very great advice
Acetone does not have "zero" residue. It's an organic chemical and like all organic chemicals, they have impurities which don't completely evaporate. Theoretically it's possible, but no commercial grade stuff is free of impurities.
we have a few peer welders at work with no vents nearby, are the oils and water burned off dangerous during the quick half second peer weld dangerous?
Thanks
What kind of tests should I have a family member under go. She is unfortunately so sick from working in the trade for 25 years.
Nice video sir