Why Audi V8 Engines are an Absolute Disaster
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 чер 2023
- Here's a look inside of Audi's V8 engine and how it works!
The Audi V8 engine uses dual overhead camshafts with variable valve timing on the intake camshaft. Those camshafts are driven by a timing chain, located at the rear of the engine behind the transmission. Unfortunately failure prone timing components and the placement of this chain results in expensive failures since repairs are very labour intense.
The rest of the engine however is well built but has unique design elements, such as timing chain powered accessories and a 5 valve design. The oil pump, air conditioning compressor, power steering pump and water pump are driven by an extra accessory drive timing chain setup and shafts leading to the front of the engine to where they reside, as opposed to the alternator which is powered by a traditional belt from the harmonic balancer at the front of the engine.
There are two versions of the 4.2L engine - newer Audi's have timing setups at the front of the engine which weren't nearly as failure prone. The engine in this video (BBK) failed due to a cracked plastic timing chain guide causing timing to skip and errors to be alerted in the computer before complete catastrophic failure. It was out of a 2007 Audi S4 B7. Other failure modes include failed timing chain tensioners, camshaft phasers and stretched chains causing rattle upon cold starts. - Авто та транспорт
Audi’s idea of engineering: add complexity, reduce serviceability, and hang it all as far forward in the chassis as possible.
Putting timing and accessory drive at the back of the engine is ass backwards, true. However with their quattro drivetrain being longitudinally oriented, makes center diff placement behind the engine to get the half shafts to the front wheels incredibly tricky.
Typical German over-engineering
"hang it all as far forward in the chassis as possible." They've always been that way! Just Audi things.
“Complicate and add mass.”
Apologies to Colin Chapman.
@@tomvisel2267 In the era of the Ferdinand Porsche-designed Audi (Auto Union) Grand Prix car it was a maximum weight rule instead of a minimum one. Hence the 6L supercharged V16! "The design team engineered the largest possible engine within the 750 kg weight limit. "
This engine was designed by a vengeful engineer at Audi whose wife ran off with a mechanic. "Hmmm", the designer said to himself, "How can I make the world's most ridiculously complex timing chain arrangement? And then, to top it all off, I'll put it at the BACK of the engine!".
Haha
Or engineers who were liked the Toyota LE van but thought it was "too serviceable..."
BMW: hold my beer...B58!
In the Audi A8 and A6 the timing belt is on the front of the engine. When they stuffed this engine into the A4 chassis sold as S4 which is what this engine is they moved it to the back of the engine and changed to a timing chain. I sold my 2005 Audi S4 at 117,000 miles which was when I started hearing a little bit of noise on cold start. I'm sure it was an early sign of the timing chain guides failing which is the biggest weakness of this engine. At the time I sold the car I sold it for $8500 and replacing the timing chain and guides is about $6-8k dollars.
Reading about cheating always makes me sad, and making me never ever even wanna try dating
Im amazed how mechanics can pull these things apart and back together again without losing their minds over a missing bolt or forgetting where things went
I'm losing it just watching this 😂
Im fairly certain that was their road to becoming one..lol
By the time he got the timing belt cover off I was like...yup, I'm never going to be able to put that back together
Practice lol a lot of it
That's all cleaned up in post.
Hi there,
I actually happened to work in R&D in Audi and was directly involved in the development of this engine and in the auxiliary chain drive in particular in the year 2000.
While your critique of the engine may be totally valid, and the development of the chain drives of this engine was a major issue and a pita for a whole group of engineers, I also would like to provide the answer to your question, why Audi chose this overly complicated solution:
You already mentioned that the chain drives make the engine slightly more compact compared to a more conventional design with belts on the front end. Even though the difference made only for a few cm, one inch or so, it had to be that compact in order to fit this 4.2L V8 into the Audi A4 chassis to create the Audi RS4. This was a management and marketing decision at that time, and the RS4 ended up being an excellent car with extremely good balance and great drivability. But the engine had to be made to fit the existing chassis.
That was the motivation behind the complex chain drive solution. And in fact the auxiliary chain drive was even intended to also include the three gears driving oil pump and aircon compressor. But the fact these gears being so close to each other caused an extremely high pitched screaming noise originating from the short chain sections, which could not be controlled even after hundreds of modifications and test runs. In the end they had to settle for a more expensive solution with gears, which had actually been excluded from the beginning.
I remember how the engine screamed like a racing engine. It really could not have been sold that way.
Good to know. So you mean Audi intended to put even more chains than it already has?
@@speedkar99 Not more chains. But the auxiliary chain drive was originally supposed to wrap around 3 more sprockets, those which ended up being gears instead. This eliminated the noise issue but was more expensive to manufacture. You can see the 3 gears driven off the auxiliary chain drive in your tear down video.
Christian, fascinating to hear from one of the actual development engineers and very generous of you. You mention the RS4 but I believe this is from an S4 B7, which is a somewhat different engine - metal tensioners on the RS4, for one thing? Those engines are said to be less prone to chain failure? I notice the long hex oil pump drive, with a very shallow key depth at the pump end. This seemed to be a thing of Audi from this era - particularly the 2.0 TDI PD and early CR diesel engines; where the hex key, driven from the balance shaft, was 77mm. Many of those engines catastrophically failed, when this key rounded off. It was later modified to 100mm giving a depth into the shaft keyway of about 29mm, as opposed to 6mm, completely solving the issue. I have a 2006 Audi with such an engine and I fitted a modified 100mm one and now have over 256K miles on it without issue. Could and was the same thing ever an issue here?
I much prefer toothed belts but you only seem to get them on 4 cylinder engines; engineers acknowledge them as a service item and so they normally make them more accessible; whereas chains are sold as 'for life', so they are usually not; so interesting what you say about the pressures from marketing. Of course in the old days of OHVs chains were short or even gears, so they rarely failed but I believe the only engines to drive an OHC via pushrods were those designed by W.O. Bentley, because he had a background in locomotive engineering and they were bullet proof. Regards.
I can't believe you actually came forward and took credit for designing this.
@@paullastname3426 🤷🏻♂️
I am so impressed that your family members are willing to donate their clothes just so you can teach us about the engines. That is very kind of them.
Hahaha
I am waiting for the day when he uses their clothes while they're still being worn.
@@twentyrothmans7308 “here’s my brothers old shirt” *actively ripping it off of them* hahha
This engine looks so impressive blown apart laying on fresh cardboard.
And their toothbrushes.
I like the "toss all the parts in a single box" method. I use it almost exclusively myself. Its nice because i usually end up with some extras parts at the end that can be used later.
😂
hahaha, true story!
Good idea you get higher prices for scrap metal if you separate the aluminum from the cast iron.
If you are left with extra parts means that you are smarter than the engineers behind the engine 😂😂
If you have parts left over, it means you did the job correctly. At least, that was my motto. 😂✌️
We called it the bolt bucket😅
I love how you're explaining every part and bit to the tear down and there's no music to impede the simple time lapse parts. Just really nice to hear you have a family as well 😌 this is something I can get into, I'm subbing for simplizing the complex audi 4.2
Glad you appreciate my simple video style
I got hits of anxiety just by watching this complicated engine being taken apart. It would make me crazy thinking that i could mess something up putting it together lol
Yeah right? I'd be carefully putting these parts down in some kind of orderly position all laid out, he's just tossing them lol
he's probably selling for material, not really putting it back together...
Yeah taking apart an engine just some hard work. Putting it back together? Well that’s a whole other story.
He does tear downs thats it. he dont piss around putting back together
Mate, this is the best edited engine tear-down I ever saw. Well narrated, good functional assessment and honest summary. What an awful engine to work on and crazy that it's weakest link is an inaccessible piece of plastic.
Seems like, instead of starting from scratch, this engine has just had countless items added on to what originally was probably a well-designed engine. Just an over complicated disaster!. Run a mile without a watertight service plan.
agreed. no filler, all info
Agreed! My only complaint is audio of his voice is considerably softer than the impact drill.
If I had this engine in the car I would constantly wonder when will it break down and will I get a colosal bill from the garage. What a shit design.
I was baffled that they would pick plastic to put in that spot. Of all the places?
Working on German vehicles requires:
1) every fastener tip known to man
2) unlimited patience
3) mandatory Deutsche Bank membership/account
4) legally changing your name to Wolfgang, Klaus, Gunter, or Hans
I think Klaus is preferred.
You got it nailed!
German here.
These names are out some 50 years.
Deutsche Bank made clear they don't like/need average Joe customers some 20 years ago. ING is common these days.
No patience, know what your doing, or else. Have the tools you need, plan your work, or else.
@@timtim8468 "These names are out some 50 years."😂 Anybody who works on European cars needs a full set of long & short Torx, E-Torx, XZN (Triple Square) and Ribe-CV bits or sockets and E-Torx wrenches. I often see the HumbleMechanic and Paul from Deutsche Auto Parts using 1/4" drive Torx bits on a ratchet instead of having a Torx screwdriver set which is kind of crazy though (seems inconvenient). On the bright side: this is an opportunity to buy more tools, and unlike their cars, German tools are high quality and made to last (though Japanese and American tools are also very good, of course, while most DIYers can make do with mid-range Taiwanese tools that are generally very good quality these days). Of course, all internal drive fasteners are fundamentally flawed when they hold high torque as they tend to break the bit rather than the fastener, which is inconvenient.
They are easy to work, just don't buy a chain driven one.
@@DaBeast3 When you do not drive that much, a chain is the way, it does not expire buy the calendar. A belt in an engine like here is a mess too, some 10ft long.
Yep that motor was the most replaced motor at a shop I worked at. More then all other brands we serviced combined
It looks like a very intricately designed engine. But unfortunately it was not designed for reliability, which is a shame. I hate seeing such an expensive and complex machine being scraped like this.
that engine hasnt had an oil change in 10 years
What do you expect from a vw .they should beg maserati and ferrari to teach them how to build a good engine
Accessories on chains is not a good idea
Complex trash
Complexity is the enemy of reliability.
These engines have to be the most insane engines I’ve seen, due to their unsimplified design..definitely an “engine out”repair for everything..
It sure is intricate and interesting to see but not to actually do work on.
For a timing chain job, the engine does not need to come out. They remove the transmission and access everything with the engine still on. Had the timing chains done on my 3.0 TDI. These old German luxury cars are quite popular where I'm from, so people aren't too afraid of the complexity and many know how to work on them.
It is designed to be too expensive for poor peasants to own. When new it's it's too expensive to buy and when old and cheap it's too expensive to maintain. Audi don't want unwashed driving their cars its bad for their image
@@speedkar99 Agreed, as Audi has become another VW Group disaster...]
Comparing this engine to the five cylinder in my Audi 4000 Quattro I am left believing that the V8 was designed to be smooth & vibration free at the expen$e of being high maintenance. My 4000Q has somewhere around 300k to 350k miles on it and has never had any major service, as even the head gaskets are original...
[ you never know how many miles are on a 4000Q because the odometers start getting stuck at 120k miles. Over the sixteen years I have owned the car I have managed to put 18k miles on the odometer because it only turns for a few miles every other Tuesday before getting stuck again...]
@@1gl000 exactly. I do a minimum two of these a month. I do a lot of the 3.0 tdi too. It's not that bad. People just expect a single chain like on the old Chevys and Oldsmobiles
I like how you don't just have "rags," there is a story behind each one. Really, you intrigue me. You seem like a cross between a daily mechanic and a Big 3 auto engineer. Whatever you're doing, I love it, keep it up. Awesome content.
He is an engineer by trade
I remember him saying he has a degree in engineering but it's nothing compared to what he learned on the field
@Retired Bore great point!
Are you five years old? pointing out what we all saw and heard in the video
I have a chemistry degree not an engineering degree. But my experiences with tradesman and engineers are very opposite. I’ve had a pretty colorful work history. The tradesmen solve all the problems the engineers create haha.
This model should be called "Million" referring to cost of repairs and number of components used to build it.
Great video as always.
It'll never cease to amaze me how mechanics can just throw bolts and pieces into a big pile, and now where to put them all back at the end.
German pita Engineering at its finest
What’s pita?
@@Jayderzomb Pain In The Ass
There's an old story (never verified as far as I know) about Henry Ford demanding to the people responsible for Ford carburetors needing 16 screws to hold down the top plate of the carburetor be reduced in number. They redesigned the casting so four screws held it down. Old Henry wasn't happy until they got the top held down with one central screw (and a thick gasket I presume). I don't know if the story is true but I do know from what is actually known about old Henry's penchant for simplicity is that he would HATE German propensity for complexity.
Hah
Good story
History shows that Henry Ford liked Germans a bit too much.
Henry Ford was a Nazi and would love modern "designed to fail' products after all he was a cut throat bussiness man who wanted profit at all costs. He supported Hitler until it was obvious Germany would lose then he suddenly became a "patriot" he wasn't your friend or a "nice guy"
@@apricity69 Very good!
Yeah, ol Henry liked Germans so much he helped Boeing get better at making bombers and dedicated his factories to building vehicles and machinery to support the US war effort.
There's a distinct irony here: The engineers are intensely proud to develop such a complex mechanism; the dealers flaunt it in sales ads and showroom sales talk; owners brag about their wonderful piece of machinery that they paid an inordinate amount of money for. And then, ten years later, it all goes to the crusher.
They have to look after the guys in sales too by ensuring the car doesnt last too long
This is one of the best camera work, commentary and time laps I HAVE EVER SEEN. I wish you were in Western Australia, The Quotes I have received for the timing chain upgrade are mind-boggling.
I own a 2006 s4 6 speed and it's definitely a crazy design the reason the chains are on the trans side is they were suppose to be lifetime timing components but the cheap nylon guides had other ideas but if you upgrade the chain guides like I did I just dropped the trans when I changed the clutch and was able to change the guides without removing the motor now I have 240 k on the motor and it still runs strong with zero issues . Another issue that's causes cold start rattle that gets mistaking for the guides failing is the oil valves in the valley under the intake they are suppose to close when the engine stops to keep oil up In the timing chain area but they fail and stay open draining the oil back to the pan then when you start the motor there is no oil up top for the first few seconds of startup thus the rattle. I can say that this motor is one of the best sounding v8s on the planet hands down . but the problem alot of upper end cars is most cases are off leases and people who lease treat there cars like crap don't do oil changes because they aren't keeping it
NOTHING in an engine is lifetime. Manufacturers just don't expect you to own a car for more than like, 7 years or 150k miles or something. Timing chains WILL wear out no matter how well maintenance is done. The majority of engine wear happens upon a cold start, when engine oil cannot properly lubricate, even with the variable viscosity oils of today.
Most engine oils are extremely similar in viscosity when at operating temperature, and only show differences when cold. You could have two 10w30 oils, one conventional and the other synthetic. The synthetic will flow better than conventional even though both have the same rating. But synthetic oils will still not properly lubricate when cold, so the best you can do to increase the life of your engine is frequent oil-changes to prevent the various additives in the oil from being used up, and driving your car like a grandma until the engine has reached operating temperature.
Try using full stops at the end of your sentences.
@@elroyfudbucker6806 id nots verry sma ma ma art. And try not to keep having sex with your sister
I have several Lincoln 4.6 V8's and they all go to 300-400k without any major repairs. This design is horrible. You as the owner should not have to upgrade internal components to get 150k. I'm glad you did it so at least you have a dependable and long lasting engine
There is updated tensioners for the chain rattle at start up. Can be replaced without removing trans or engine from vehicle. Just remove rear upper timing covers and replace tensioners. This is for supercharged 3.0 and 4.2 I believe.
The whole
teardown are always so satisfying. The cracking and Zapping gives the mind some extra relaxation. Keep them coming
same!!! Satisfying sounds of bolts being reverse driven 😌
Masterful editing and overview, keep it up excellent work!
the 4.2 V8 in the first gen R8 is considered a really reliable engine by nearly all who own one. A few things do go wrong with the R8, but not much actually Engine related. AC compressor, magrides and R-tronic usually but the actual block is considered pretty bulletproof
The early 4.2 v8s were timing belt in the front instead of that timing chain mess in the back.
"the 4.2 V8 in the first gen R8 is considered a really reliable engine by nearly all who own one" - Because nobody drives more than 10.000 miles a year with an R8. On an S4, S6 or A8 this looks different, those are used as everyday cars. Then the problems start.
@@haramaschabrasir8662I’ve driven Audi’s for the last 25 years. Never had a single issue with any of them.
i highly doubt it, or you baby them. Drove over 25 years AUDI´s here in germany. @@achosenman9376
@@achosenman9376 you didnt need to tell everyone youre a masochist. We kink shame around here
Nice teardown, thanks. They are a great bit of engineering but it's all let down by a few cheap components, that whole engine was junked because of a $20 plastic guide and plastic valve covers. We are trying to be better for the planet so we should be insisting that things are made to last.
Mark - the sad reality is as follows.
Corporations and those who still work for them don’t actually care about the environment - they do however have to meet ESG scores which are nothing more then another system that masks what is really happening: socialism. It’s just simply been rebranded as environmentalism….
Your average mindless mouth breather out there is in denial of this but eventually even the most feeble minded conformists will get it.
I don’t normally do suggestions - but if you really want an epic well made production that puts it in perspective checkout dayz of noah channel. Prepare to crap your pants!
Lol the plastic valve covers from B7's are by far better than the metal ones in B6's. They sell for good money currently
That entire engine is waaaay too complex, piece of junk
@@ryanthompson2893 so you don't understand how it works and that makes it junk lol. Thank God I only take advice on this motor from people that have brains that work properly.
@@ryanthompson2893 'If' they hadn't cut corners on the cheap plastic bits, it would be a great engine, bearing in mind the sort of power they make and that nothing was really wrong with anything except the chain guides.
Nice engineering! These engines are the ones where you want to change oil every 5000 miles. Pity such a small plastic part is so hard to change. For me a reason to stay away from Audi!
Yet Audi say to do 15,000 mile changes which doesn't help the longevity of the engines. I don't think German car manufacturers care what happens to their vehicles beyond the lease. If anything their older cars becoming troublesome and expensive to maintain might be deliberate to encourage people to upgrade to a new lease on the latest model?
very misleading he not ever once mentioned timing belt 4.2
Audi doesn't want their vehicle to last forever.. because they lost profit in doing so.unlike the Japanese manufacturer
@@hermanbinngavionohermanbin8371 Yes I know many who changed from Audi to Tesla. Far happier now.
My friend has a 2.0 tfsi and it gets 5l of fresh oil every 5000 miles, replacing what it burns!
Very good explanation, sad to see that engine done but the cost of replacing all timing gear parts could be horrendous, and still have oil leaks and PCV troubles. I like Audis, always tempted to get one of these V8 but will keep my V6s, very easy to maintain compared to that.
I had a "broken guide" that was covered under aftermarket warranty. I bought a warranty for that specific reason. After all the work (15k in extras) it still made the "chainsaw noise". Turns out it was the alternator 😂
No way
Great production work. Good photography, great time lapse, clear explanations. Well done!!
Thank you very much!
That engine reminds me of the ME262 jet fighter. The engines were good for ten to fifteen HOURS.
@@retiredbore378 The metallurgy was a problem at that point in the war as the Germans didn't have access to the metals that would have given a longer service life. The axial flow design is still the used in jets today so the basic concept was correct.
Hahaha, ridiculous. The V8 Audi was and is the best and most reliable car I had (and have) in 40 years of driving. And 400 to 500,000 kilometers without almost no service are not unusual for these engines!
YA YA but we 'almost won the war' we just ran out of time.
@@turbocontinentalThe other cars must be real crap if an audi was your best car.
@@SkinPeeleRapply engine oil to overheating area
I just got a huge respect for old school motors. This is thousands of parts all working together to let you down.
Nothing beats the American V8's from the '30's to the '60's.
@@godfreyberry1599 So goddamn true
How does this engine (4.2) compares to 4.0 TFSI and 3.0 TFSI ? Are tensioners also a problem there?
I'm so happy to see your videos again, I love them for the technical and mechanical learning, and I generally find them relaxing.
Awesome. Glad you find tranquility in something so mesmerizing
@@speedkar99 Keep up the great work.
That seems to be a nightmare of unnecessarily complex chains, sprockets, tensioners, et al. Sometimes simple is best/better. Interesting engine and video.
I know he is Swiss not German, but it looks like H R Giger designed the timing chain system
Simpler is ALWAYS better, that is why fully electric cars have 10 times less parts than combustion engine cars: They don't even need all these parts and it is the reason why they are so efficient.
Omg… this was mind blowing and stressful. You are the very definition of an expert. Amazing work! 👏👏👏
Great video. Thanks.
What's your thoughts on the Audi V8 Diesel engine as opposed to the petrol variety?
You're extremely pedagogic for a mechanic. Most teachers aren't that good. Teachers may know their field, but just because they have knowledge about something doesn't mean they're good at teaching it. You're not only good at the sucject at hand, you're also extremely good at explaining what you're doing.
He's a mechanical engineer
I had an A6 and S4 with this engine. Loved them! But the fastener thing is true. They even used some obscure hose clamps used by a German brewery that required a $150 tool to remove and install them.
German Brewery? The only German company I know that has a similar name to anything automotive is the tuning company Oettinger
They are called oetiker clamps and you can buy a servicing kit from brewery supply houses for inexpensive. the special tool is just a front-cutter plier. they are constant tension and won't back off like wormgear style clamps. its used on a lot of german cars.
@@wacabby Oetiker clamps are also used on some EFI fuel supply lines, for the constant-tension aspect you mentioned.
They are not obscure, they are commonly used for fuel lines.
German car companies tend to manufacture things where servicing requires special tools specific for that part… good money grab for them but pain in the ass for us mechanics 😒
thanks for the tear down, your running commentary is just right - it seems like these things were designed to fail after xxx operations or 150k km, whichever comes first, but always out of warranty natürlich.
Yes it's designed to fail after the warranty so you buy another one
I had a 2003 RS6 with this 4.2 engine as its basis. Produced 450bhp and was very reliable, mechanically quiet, plus 17 mpg wasn’t to bad for a heavyweight 4wd estate. I sold it as it was coming up for the timing chain or belt service, which was quoted as 10% of what I paid for the car. Was wonderful to own for a short time, but the general engineering overkill and excess of driver aids, made it impressive but uninvolving. It’s predecessor, an 850R Volvo wagon that was developed from the T5-R touring car, was a much better drivers car. With its manual box, the Volvo showed that less is more if you like driving fast, as opposed to going fast.
your RS6 had a timing belt at the front of the engine. way easier to service than the 4.2 chain driven shown in this video.
You missed the most common failure of these engines. The cam phaser lockout pin engagement holes wear out/elongate and the phaser won't lock into position. This causes timing chain faults and very rough running condition. You should disassemble the cam phasers and check the locking pin holes. I guarantee at least one is worn out.
That's potatoes compared to the chain slides. You can change phasers while the engine is in the car and that issue isn't unique to Audi v8's. Even my Toyota rattles in startup.
I wish I had watched this before I bought my $90K 2013 S6. Which had a transmission that lasted for 60,000 miles. Replacement quoted by the dealership at $20,000 and they were the only ones around that could do the job. That made the car literally worthless and I junked it.
Always a treat to view your videos.Do you have plans to disect any classic engines?
Very good presentation! I could easily work with you. Your logic is great!
Great production work. Good photography, great time lapse, clear explanations. Well done!!. Great production work. Good photography, great time lapse, clear explanations. Well done!!.
They used to say that the Italians made things complicated, using, for example, two bolts there one would do; using two oil filters, two alternators and even two fuel injection systems on the Daytona. But this engine makes all that pure simplicity- this design is just bonkers, as in all the other comments. Very well described and edited - keep up the good work!
I'm not familiar with Italians, and have generally had stigma about them, but what you told, sounds just like appreciable redundancy for sake of reliability.
@@TheSimoc Too bad they aren't known for making reliable cars. Expensive fast ones, sure. But not reliable.
@@Tattle-by-Tale Yes indeed, exactly the stigma I have about Italian cars..
As this is a german engine the reason for all these choises is probably to make 0.03% more efficient.
Can u please enlighten me on the differences between the ABZ 4.2 and the bhf 4.2? And which one is better to build? I want to turbo my s4 in the future which entails building up the motor and I would like to know which one would be better to build
o own an A5, with the 3.2L V6, isn't that the exakt same placement with the Timing chain, it is right?
Classic German engineering, perfection is when we've reached the point that there is nothing more that can be added. I see this a designers having gone nuts and grossly overcomplicated. I couldn't live with that timing arrangement debacle. Thanks for educating us. Hope the baby clothes cleaned up OK!
That engine design is not perfection at all. It is a direct descendant (and reminder) of the badly designed engines predating WW2 in stupidness complexity that can't be easily serviced and cost the lives of many young men back then.
And don't forget the proprietary fasteners..... can't do anything with a standard bolt after all.
This is just plain bad engineering. Yes they have incredible capabilities when it comes to designing parts and manufacturing to exacting tolerances, but there's a lack of restraint in German engineering I don't like. They don't seem to ask if they should do something only if they can do something. I'm a big fan of minimalistic engineering. Trying to do as much as possible with as few parts as possible. The Japanese are masters of this.
Correction: Perfection is actually when nothing is left to take away, whilst still delivering the intended function
@@chrisward7038No. That's normal perfection. He was talking about German perfection.
Does the engine designer own stock in the company that supplies o-rings? Can we fit one more o-ring into the oil distribution system?
Hi, speedkar99! I really enjoy your videos. They are quite insightful. I was wondering if you could do a teardown of a Porsche V8 engine, specifically the 4.5 from a 955. There have been many weird decisions made regarding that engine, such as the use of plastic coolant hoses. I would greatly appreciate it if you would consider including this engine in one of your upcoming teardowns.
Wow. After seeing this I know I don’t want any 4.2L chain driven Audi engine. Well done video. Thanks!
You are welcome
Amazing effort...
much appreciated❤❤
The timing chain setup looks very busy, if somone did not know what a piece of junk the engine was one might mistake that for an engineering marvel.
The V10 TDI has an all timing gear setup like a high-end motorcycle or racing engine, which is pretty nice!
Actually is an engineering marvel compared to the 1950's junk motor designs the US is still selling today! Only need to look at their Le Mans victories compared to any USA product to get your answer. That replacement is a 4 to 6 hour labor charge according to AUDI. Problem is the shortage of tech know how in the US 🤦♂🤦♂
@@c-teamtrading9690 🙄 The Ford Coyote is a perfectly good standard DOHC VVT engine. The latest Corvette LT6 DOHC V8 is similar to any Ferrari V8 engine. Audi aren't competiting at Le Mans, but the Porsche 963 is so "advanced" (or not) that it needs to race with 33kg less weight than the Toyota GR010 to have any chance to keep up... The engine installation of both the Porsche and BMW twin-turbo V8s are a total mess of wires, coolers and hoses compared to the neat installation of the 2.4L engine in the Acura/Honda with its tidy Formula 1-style air-water intercooler. The Acura engine is SO MUCH more compact and elegant than the so-called "marvels of German engineering". And I would NOT be surprised if the Cadillac with the LT6 is surprisingly competitive at Le Mans either. 😉
Yes, German engineers can design things that work well enough but they work *in spite* of their tendency to haphazardly add complication and whatever extra feature where-ever it will fit, not because of it. It's much more difficult to design something that is simple and elegant and uses fewer parts.
Just compare the Honda K20C1 to the VW Audi EA888.
For example, the MK8 VW GTI engine uses one solenoid per cylinder to implement variable valve lift -- requiring FOUR solenoids and FOUR connectors, whereas the Honda engine uses one solenoid and one connector to operate variable valve lift on ALL the cylinders.
That's just the tip of the iceberg too... The Honda engine requires only two timing chains whereas the VW engine has three. The VW engines uses two serpentine belts (an extra one at the gearbox end to drive the water pump off the balance shaft) where the Honda engine requires only one (and the balance shafts are much more neatly incorporated within the oil pump). It goes on and on.
Honda's turbo four is so much more of a simplified, refined & elegant of a design than VW's turbo four that there is no comparison! The VW engine is overcomplicated and messy by comparison, which shows that less (rather than more) thought has been put into its design.
thats why you buy the 4.2 timing belt
@C-TEAM TRADING I had a few of those outdated junk motors and while they were not as good as the stuff the japanese made they were not bad either. The 1960's vintage 3800 and 4T60 lasted 230,000 miles without catastrophic failure, not great but not bad either. The average driver does not have the same needs as a race team where performance is the only requirement and long term reliability and cost are no object.
Cool video! And you are right, from the engineering point of view it's impressive. But from the maintenance side, it is a nightmare
Yep that sums it up
Crazy work / engenering involved to make it work. Bottomless money pit down the line 😡
I don't consider it good engineering. Good engineering is constrained. This is just gross. Complexity in place of doing the work to refine down the design into something practical.
I heard timing the timing chain tensioners go bad because people dont let the oil get to a proper temp before beating on them.
They'd see coolant get to temp and but never let the oil get to a warm enough temperature?
Is that a real thing?
Very nice Tear Down Video. Did you rebuild it or will this be going to the junk heap?
Scrap.
A good quote i read a few days ago “this car may be 8k now but 80k new,its still a 80k car in terms of repairs”
That's true. But it also holds for a Lexus LS460 or Toyota Century. Somehow the former have higher retained values as they age than a Audi A8 V8...
@Retired Bore If you buy a $8k LS460 that was $60k new, it is unlikely you'll ever spend $52k on repairs.
Thats why you buy ones with out the timing chain V8. $4k car.
@@TassieLorenzo Or just know what you are buying
Well, I tell you why that complicated setup for the timing chain is engineered the way it is.
This 4.2 high rev V8 was built for a couple of different AUDI models, but developed for the AUDI V8 (Typ D11) from the late 80s.
Now you will find that same engine with timing belt built in front and accessories driven by a flat belt for the bigger AUDI models, e.g. V8, S6 (C5), RS6 (C5) or A8.
And for the S6 (C5), if you look at it carefully, you can tell that the front fenders are longer than at a standard A6, because of the size of the engine and its mounting point.
The one you have in the tear-down video is likely to be from an S4 (B6/B7), so it came with the chain setup in the back to be able to cramp that thing into the A4 body and as much forward mounted as possible. Now, why is that a requirement, simply because of the four wheel drive system, which is standard on those cars, so the gearbox shall be mounted as much forward as possible as well.
And no, you can't do anything about that timing chain without taking the engine out, no chance ... but it is a marvel of an V8 if you drive it and it delivers to the end of its rpm range like a beast, check it out as a non-turbo version in the B7 RS4 ( up to ~8000 min−1).
There you go, it is not over complicated because an engineer went berserk, it simply didn't fit into all the cars it was built into right from the start.
they get way too much flak for this engine and it isn't even that bad.
@@barfoom it is terrible for most people lol but interesting to know the background. I dont think ir excuses the terrible maintenance cost, and the decision to fit an engine that doesn't really fit in the car without compensating repairability.
Wait, the A6 and S6 have front ends of different lengths?
Must be some internal Audi engineers challenge. If the C5 needed longer fenders to accommodate a V8, it would make sense to try the V10 on the C6 next. A real master class in creating silly constraints and then making things infinitely complicated to work around them with absolutely no regard for repairability. 👏
@@rj6110 yes, indeed, so that the engine can be serviced via replacing a timing belt instead of removing it for dealing with a chain.
Another great tear down,i love your videos
Well, that was time well spent… seriously interesting… thanks for all the time you put into making this video… appreciated….
I believe the use of many different types of bolt head design is to ensure the correct torque is used on the assembly line.
Each unskilled work station worker fits a number of different components to the engine before it moves along the line, using preset drivers for different fasteners means that theres no possibility of under or over-tightening fasteners.
The head design doesn't have to with torque. Torque is measured through the friction in the threads and clamping force. They don't care about fastener type because not the same person or machine is installing it on the production line.
yes it is for making it harder for hobbyists to fix it fast or just to drive home more repairs or new part buyings .
@Retired Bore I know an ex BMW engine production line worker, taken on from an agency, never seen inside an engine before, given a mornings training then set to work attaching timing chain assemblies to engines. Allotted time for this task was 90 seconds, this was within the last ten years. A different head driver was used for each type of fastener to ensure bolts were given the correct tightening force.
@@kevinbradley172 Makes sense to me, it’s just a task.
its called moron engineering,
Great video! Your editing style works great with my short attention span. Very interesting watch, but you just crushed my desire to ever own an Audi.
Glad you like the video format... Thanks for the feedback
They make great lawn ornaments and look great in a driveway. It says "I have made it" Pick up a 4-5 year old one for 14/15 and just park it. They are a really nice looking well-appointed vehicle. You just can't afford to drive one!
They are going all-electric in Germany so that should be just a swell idea eh? What could possibly go wrong?
Excellent video and comment, very interesting! I own a BMW and i guess Germand engines will more or less be similar. Big message in this video, keep the engine design simple and accessible for maintenance.
Agreed! Thanks
What do you do with the motor now? Do you replace the broken chain tensioners, etc. and rebuild the motor for sale, or do you part it out as is?
Scrap.
Great video! This is the reason of way I walked away from a 2004 S4 wagon 6 speed manual. Although they were not signs of any rattles or noises I didn't want to take the chance. But I always loved those 4.2 the way the deliver power and sound. After lots of research I found many 4.2s after 2008 with very high millage (high millage been an Audi right), but still, 400 and 380k kms. unopen engine. Tons of oil changes and regular maintenance other than common oil leaks. I ended up getting a one owner 2010 S5, extremely well maintained regardless been the higher millage (220k kms) of the 6 S5's I tested. Great deal but knowing I had to do few things, Latest maintenance from previous owner including carbon clean, water pump thermostat, O2 Sensors, etc. I do my own work on and I went ahead with, new 8 injectors, Coolant flush, some common seals and orings for the oil filter housing under the intake, wasn't leaking but peace of mind. Tranny fluid, diffs. After 4k kms since this work its been amazing.
I also have a 2010 Q5 3.2, sitting at 180k kms. Put 20k kms since I bought it and not a single issue. Right after I got it replaced all fluids. I changed engine oil every 6000kms along with Ceratec.
Unless you have lots of money for a mechanic, or you have the passion and time to work on along with lots of research time. I would always recommend Japanese engineering.
I also want to mention, I found 3 S5's V8 with timing chain issues. All 3 owners changing oil every 12-15k miles.
Agree
you audi fansboys never are stubborn lol.
There are large amounts of Japanese vehicles that are a pain in the ass to work on
This bloke is a genius,that was the most interesting engine dismantle video ive ever watched.
Well done 👍🏻
Not really a genius but I understand your excitement.
Can you do more cut shots of the impact taking bolts out? I love a good solid 5 minutes of you taking bolts out before you start explaining the headline of the video that ultimately got someone to click the video.
Very educational video. I'm not anywhere near as knowledgeable and this was explained very well. Some great points as to, why did they do this? Esp the plastic guides for a timing chain. Only reason could be is a money grab when they break out of warranty. No way to justify that.
Money, and weight savings.
Over 15 years ago I used to have A8L with 4.2 L. The car was great and I never had any issues with the engine.
What engine was it? Belt or chain
those are belt cars
Im wondering, what do you actually do with all these engine/transmission parts after each disassembly ? You sell these separately or scrap some unusable stuff ?
His wife makes coffee tables trom blocks
Metal is recycled to use in Teslas. Hence no Tesla teardown done here. 😊
@@MEU2k Yeah, yummy cast iron. That sounds very safe, and defiantly what you want a car built out of 🤦
@@MEU2k yea can't wait for that tesla engine tear down
@@tikkeh Tesla doesn't have a "engine"
Great video very informative, questions, I have a 09 Altima with a head gasket leak, the engine still strong, I have a lot smoke coming out from the exhaust, some mechanics said this engine is all aluminum and even if I replaced the gasket I'm going to have a lot problems, they said is better to buy a used engine.
Is that true that engine can be fix? Anybody, 🙏 thx
Incredible, in-depth video. Never seen anything like this before.
What a nightmare of over complication.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Yikes!
But Audi makes the best driving cars anywhere.
The fact they reach 400-500k miles with just proper maintenance, especially the 3.0 diesel v6, is kinda nuts lol.
It's German!
Always overcomplicated
German
The complexity of this single engine exceeds the complete lineup of all Japanese designed engines.
Even people from the X galaxy get confused while checking Audis from up there.
I think the Japanese engineers would lose their minds seeing how poorly this engine is designed.
@@youtubasoarus That's very true, when Audi engineers see a problem, they design a bigger problem to solve the earlier one 😅
@@MEU2k 🤣
Plastic valve covers, plastic guides, aluminum heads ; way to go AUDI! Thank you for this video. Audi is officially off my shopping list! I hope AUDI learned something from this video.
I really appreciate someone well versed in engine repair. And THIS guy is one of those.
Now, let's see you put it back together!😁
though remember this is a pretty old engine what where known for being really hard to work on
Interesting video , thanks for sharing.
You are welcome
Pretty good video. I like the part where you talk about the failures of the engine.
Great video. Opinions are great. The title of the video will yield more to one side but in my case the 4.2L got me to 375,000 km before I sold it to a happy buyer. The engine served me well! Sure Germans over engineer things but they produce great vehicles.
Looks insanely complicated. Even for a German car😜
You got some good skills and patience my friend...👍
Have you ever done one of the old Mazda rotary engines? Heard they might be coming back for a few models. Cool content.
It would be fun to engineer a strait-cut gear arrangement to replace all those chains to see if more horsepower and noise could be made 🤠
I think the reason it seems this engine has had so much good oil going into it is partly the amount of oil on the outside.
exactly my thought :D!
This is absolutely insane, well-done! How do you keep track of all the parts? lol
I throw them in one big pile.
The scrap pile 🤣🤣
Excellent video love the engine breakdowns.
Glad you like them!
In my experience, if a Japanese part fails due to cost cutting measures, it's usually external parts which are much easier to replace and often cheap to buy. Of course there have been issues with some Japanese designs. There will always be lemons, but in my exprience, they are far fewer in the world of Japanese design. When the Germans (and often other Euro designers) get something right and it makes for a quality component, it's often changed out in the next series for another low quality part. By the time you find out which Euro engines are the good ones, you then have to find one with low miles. If you want the excitemement of rolling the dice on a second hand car, Euro vehicles won't disappoint.
Nissan transmissions and Subaru boxers
@@sierrachief117 Once Nissan joined the dark (Euro) side, I wrote them off, so I class them as Japanese/Euro now which usually results in several major problem parts. Wouldn't touch them. Subaru are one of the lemons I mentioned. I still remember wondering how they lubricate well enough. I soon found out they didn't. So, yeah generally avoid them as they are not relaible designs in general.
@@tenmillionvolts I don't know what forced nissan and mitsubishi to join hands with renault. Their worst decision. Neither of the three companies are doing good or even relevant in most markets.
I find kind of odd how Nissan until this day dont figured out a reliable automatic transmission in Mexico Nissan is a good brand but only because 90% of they cars are manual yes you can get an automatic but manual are cheaper and more reliable also if you car has the "pure drive" badge you are not going to be able to sell it easy
@@tenmillionvolts Haha I rebuilt three Subaru EJ25s just about in a row a while back, showing one of my buddies how they were poorly designed and how all six heads had warped and the next thing he does is go and buy one. I was flabbergasted. He's had nothing but problems out of that thing, but so far the engine's about all that hasn't gone wrong. Also, who the hell decided that when the check engine light comes on in a Subaru, the ABS and traction control gets disabled? Like, who said, "I don't guess I really want traction in the rain seeing as how my catalytic converter is getting tired?" Fricken idiots.
I had the 4.2 V8 FSI in my 07 A8L. Bought it at 90,000 miles. Drove it till 144,000 in span of less than two years. It was solid. Yes drove it very hard and max speed many times. It was great but agreed. It’s absolute hell to work on if you don’t know what your doing
Or rather if you don't have the money to work on it. They are not really much more complicated to work than any other engine. Just takes exponentially more time.
They're good machines when working well.
They're not more complex, they're just unnecessary and meant to be serviced by Audi themselves. It's apparent that not once during designing Audi engines do they want Bob to work on his own engine, and if he does he'll need to buy an entire set of tools especially for Audis.
Also; you're*
if you bought an audi then you dont know what youre doing.
@@rkan2 cool story bro but i dont buy it
I had a 1981 Audi 100 with 5 cylinder 2.3 l steel block, 135 horses. Great engine. Car finally had to go because of rust after 430k km. Those were the days.
What other material could've the timing chain guides be made of? Given all the constraints?
Had this engine in a 1998 (maybe the previous generation) A8, and it was really a great engine while it lasted. Really powerful
I truly expect 300k miles out of a properly maintained engine most audi's struggle to get 80 k now without major repair
They was the great timing belt 4.2 V8. I stay away from the timing chain design one unless it has the RS4 tensioner upgrade. I own 2 running belt 4.2 V8s. One with 32 valves the other 40. They have been great. My buddy has a 40v tb 4.2 with 300k on it.
@@neilduncan8657 I got mine to 170k but I think it's toast now
@@senseicorey9979 Timing belt 4.2 V8 Audis engine have nothing common with next gen chain timing v8s.
What is the symptoms? Engine codes? Or explosion?
love the snappy editing, vids like this are usually tedious
I used to be a tech in an Audi dealership, and this video definitely triggered some PTSD. I never had the pleasure of doing a timing chain on one of these. A customer bringing one of these in for a timing chain job wasn't common. I think I might have seen one of my coworkers do one once, and it might have been on his own car, I can't remember. I think they made the oil pan so wide so they could increase the oil capacity without having the pan get too close to the ground. If I remember correctly, these engines take somewhere between 8-8.5L of oil. I've done my share of oil changes on these engines and have never cracked, or encountered a cracked, oil filter cartridge housing though.
OMG! the complexity of this engine is just crazy. I have been a mechanic my entire life and something like would give me nightmares.
I stay away from these 4.2 with the chains. The older 4.2 v8s had a timing belt and are very good. They are not the same design. It's a shame they switched or used plastic instead of metal tensioners. Good video. That likely could have been a candidate for the metal tensioners from the RS4 installed if you were willing to put them in.
I still see so many older 4.2 v8 so on road . Mostly q7s
Yeah I heard the older version was alot better
@@derekbk9093Thats because the 4.2 BAR q7 engine is 100% different than the 4.2 BHF engine found in the b6/b7 s4. 32 valves vs 40, different rotating assembly, completely different heads, FSi vs port injection, They come with metal guides from the factory like the RS4. The engine in the Q7 and the RS4 are very similar. You see very few RS4s with timing issues.
Pretty much the only thing the BAR and BHF share in common is the displacement and oiling setup.
you tossing the parts on a loose pile without order gave me an anxiety attack xD you know your stuff man
I'm tossing it in the scrap pile 🤣
Idk how I got here. Or why this showed up. But I’m in. You got me. Great video.
Welcome aboard!
I am not making fun of anyone , i misspeak sometimes as well , but when you said " the cadilac converter " i choked on an almond and nearly died laughing :D , also nearly died due to choking
Me too
Me too, and I'm a spanish with far from great english pronunciation :D
I find modern car engines absolutely amazing, and the fact that all that swiss-watch complexity was engineered and then produced with such tight tolerances to handle so much power (if a measly 150bhp per ton doesn't impress you, I don't know what to say), and at 10,000's units per year blows my mind. And that's just for one model, or a series, and for a particular number of years.
But yeah, Audi's take the cake.
I dunno, if you see the horsepower numbers that modern motorcycle engines put out these days you realize just how weak most modern car engines are. 150bhp per ton is nothing when you can get a motorcycle making 250bhp where the whole thing weighs less than HALF a ton. It makes me think you were being sarcastic with that comment. A 300hp car engine is not impressive especially when it's as overengineered as this one. These engines aren't being engineered to make more power or for more reliability, usually it comes down to emissions BS and trying to get more efficiency.
The complexity is impressive but cars were "solved" decades ago, it's hard to improve on the basic concept and refine the near-bulletproof engine designs of yesteryear. The modern car industry revolves around adding needless complexity, to make cars harder to service for average people and I'm sure in some ways to make them less reliable so they can sell more cars. They could make a bulletproof engine if they wanted to, but they don't, how would they make as much money if people just kept the reliable models and repaired them to keep them on the road?
(Also based off your username, whatup fellow Meshuggah enjoyer. Very sick bass you got there.)
Audi V8 engines are actually very solid. There are no statistics about a high number of failures. Actually, they were/are used as Bentley V8s too. Service correctly and they work well. The rest is a bit of polemics.
lol this motor is a nightmare. a friend if mine ran a business just replacing 4.2 chains. have you r&red a b6 s4 motor? because that is part of servicing it "correctly" just like the space shuttle main engine
@@nutsackmania Your friend is statistically not relevant, but unfortunately unlucky. Unless most of these V8s fail, they are solid. And that's the case.
Great video. Great video speed.! 👍
What do you think about the 4.2 V8 32v 206-250kW? The one used in C4, C5 and D2 audis, I've personally never seen one of these from this older gen go bad
Those are 40v used in the C5 and D2. Same for the D3. They are timing belt engines, nothing is wrong with them. Its the shitty FSI engines with chains that are crap.
40v not 32v. 32v is old
all audis suck. thats all you need to know.
"interesting from a design & egineering standpoint"
They are a very good way to see how not to do things. IE: one team designs cooling, one designs oiling, one designs the head, (etc). Once they're done, they make it all fit together in the first way that might work, & out the door it goes…
When they actually need only one team to design it all, so the parts can work together & eliminate the extra parts (like timing chains #3, #4, & oil passages)
Yes it sure is interesting to see how all these things collaborated together with so many features to get it to work!
There could have been some redundancy reduced here which would have helped simplify it.
lol cool story bro