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A.I. designed tuned Exhaust | 2 Stroke Expansion Pipe | Mota 8
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- Опубліковано 15 сер 2024
- Bit of a try out with Mota 8 optimisation module for the expansion pipe.
Mota: www.iwt.com.au...
I also use EngMod2T:
vannik.co.za/E...
Thanks for sharing
Was there a reason for optimizing around 9k rpm in mota if you're looking in engmod2t around 11k or 12k rpm?
Hi Mitchell, I was wondering if someone would spot that! 😁
When I ran the dimensions I'd used in EngMod2T in Mota it peaked quite a bit lower than in EngMod. I've found with the sims everything is relative so I figured a gain in Mota should still give a gain in EngMod. This was another reason for using EngMod for testing as it tallies with my Dyno results better.
It was an impromptu video so a bit off the cuff and first time for me using the optimisation feature. I need to play with it some more.
However, priority at the min is to get power back at the Dyno and do some testing ☺️
Blimey, Mota has come on along way since I last used it. I had to stop when my version which used a parallel port dongle for licencing did fit my new PC which had no printer port. I switched to EngMod2T, what an awesome program that is. I used that to tune my Cheetah Cub 440cc and Cheetah DM 580cc motors.
Yep - I thought the same thing! I used Mota 6 for my first pipes for an RGV but then moved onto EngMod2T... I thought I'd upgrade as I wanted to try the optimisation element. As a note I fed my porting and pipe into it for port optimisation and it said 203 degrees on the exhaust which the Dyno agreed with on my last video ☺️
last version i bought was Mota 6.31 and it cost me a F)9*7^ 200 A$ and it did nothing more than the versions I did buy before, the only change was that I could use it on a newer Windows machine, the manual is still crappy as the first day ( I still have the printed version of the manual from around 1998 )and it still does not explain why or how data you input will influence the results.. If I am right I did buy from 1998 till now one tad package and 3 updates, and I have the feeling that overpaid for updates and even as a professional engine builder( yes I do that for a living ) I can not earn all this investment back without screwing my customers.
Loved the coffee and dubstep section
Cheers Mike 😄
Been watching DriftWorks...
I predict less over-rev and less usable power on the real dyno just based on the short/steep last diffuser and funky baffle cone shape. When the pipe temp actually starts to stabilize on the track is where a lot of problems can arise.
It will be interesting for sure. I will make a pipe from the program at some point, You can constrain it at certain points too just so it doesn't go too off piste...
I did let it run free reign on both pipe and ports and the pipe looked very weird! It would be good to see if it could come up with something quite away from the norm that works but probably never got tried?
hi @2strokepipes471 isnt over-rev governed by the angle of the first section of diffuser and the first section of the baffle?
is so the first section of baffle cone is steep (stronger pulse) which means that after peak power the pulse will be stronger. this is what ive been led to believe on the kiwi biker forum. unless ive read it wrong.
thank you!
You should start with multiple different pipes...take the best of 4 and run that through again...feed it some odd pipes to mess with it could find sweet spot...Thanks For Sharing!
Hi, cheers and good plan.
It would be interesting to see where it goes with a different starting point. Will it come up with 4 different conclusions or one similar design. I'm going for the former.
I have a YFS200 that is going to be getting this lovely treatment soon...
Cool - good luck with the YFS pipe 😀
Pretty sure 18hp is enough for a ton, just gear it right!
The honda Honda RC116 used to do 118mph with 16hp, but that was a beast, very slimmed down and ever gramm counted to the point it bycicle calipers as brakes :D
that is cool, but wouldn't want bicycle brakes while going 189km/h
Trevor, I think I may need a little more as the AR is unfaired.
Also, in the sim the power you see in the graph is at the crank... so probably around 15% losses to the tyre.
I'm thinking of a front brake upgrade too at some point 🤔
Chyrt - me either 😬
I didn’t understand most of it - but really interesting to see if you can get up to the magic 100mph!
@@duggers999 cheers mate... I'm wondering the same too 😂
Fingers crossed sometime next year 🤞
Nice one Dave, loving the videos and pipe design, may need you're help sometime!
Cheers Marcus :)
I'll try to pop over to see you at some point ☺️
That’s pretty cool!
Yep 😊
@@AutoBeta2T I’ve been asking chat gpt about two stroke engines and porting ect but have not gotten anything good out of it yet.
@@BuckYaSawsit probably needs more data? Interesting times 😮
good stuff! subbed
Cheers, hopefully more soon.
If you were to compare the two SIM programs, MOTA and EngMod2T;
Which one do you prefer and why?
Are things that ones does and the other does not?
If you were only going to use one of them for development, now that you have used both, which would you choose?
Thanks!
Hi, EngMod2T all the way. It has so much more than Mota.
I only upgraded my Mota as I wanted to play with the optimisation and 2D flow bits. I also liked using it for pipe layout and templates.
For pure development of an engine then EngMod2T. It constantly evolves into a better product as Neels updates it with input from the user community.
hey man fun question for you.
say ppl keep telling me to build my own pipe but im not a build a pipe guy but get the science. would you design me a pipe to build for a 70ish cc 2 stroke? i make around 20-22hp but in the wrong areas really. and the next pipe is about 300-400 bux. absolutely stupid.
Hi, what engine is it?
@@AutoBeta2T its a minarelli scooter motor with a racy cylinder on it. the yasuni c16 is pretty close to what i need. and i might have gotten my hands on a design to make a clone of one of those.
If you drop me an email @ autobeta2t@yahoo.com can have a look. If you can send the Yasuni measurements, that would help.
Just curious as to what you think about my idea.
I'm planning on making my first pipe this winter.
The base plan is to copy a high performance pipe (Bill's I believe) that was made for a performance engine I got in one of my ATV buggies.
I have recently put a pressure/vacuum gauge into a stock pipe and ran it with and without the muffler. Posted the results on my youtube. I will save you the trouble of looking at the videos.
With the muffler it ran 3 3/4 psi back pressure.
Without the muffler it ran 2 psi back pressure.
My thinking is that a pipe with ANY back pressure is costing power.
I say this because any back pressure in a pipe is also back pressure in the crankcase of a two stroke and therefore the piston up stroke must overcome this FIRST before vacuum is created and the reeds open to let in a fresh charge. That's a loss of some fresh charge and power.
So my thought was to build a pipe with a stinger at the end as usual and also have a large center bleed pipe for full throttle application.
Stupid idea ???
Just wondering.
CO
You need both positive and negative pressure with two stroke exhaust pipe, timed correctly. Having only negative pressure will aid scavenging but a lot of A/F mixture will be lost to the exhaust, wasted.
I've found good power gains from increasing the restriction in the stinger. I would have thought the centre bleed would help at off-pipe rpms by reducing the effectiveness of the pipe.
That's said: theory is one thing and reality is another, so it would be a cool test to make and see what happens 😁
@@TomoReso Well that is my point actually.
Isn't the pipe reflective wave suppose to push the A/F back in ? If you are relying on back pressure to do this then the pipe manufacturer is "cheating" in my opinion.
We are being cheated out of a % of fresh intake charge because of the back pressure, which would also be in the crankcase.
I know what you are saying but I'm after the full fresh intake charge as the piston rises and not having to overcome that back pressure. At 9000 rpm the time curve is real short.
CO
@@AutoBeta2T Actually my plan was to have a lever with a cable you pull to lock open a butterfly in the center bleed pipe when at full throttle.
If I make this thing this winter I'll post a video.
CO
Thanks for the replies guys.
Much appreciated.
CO
👍👍
Cheers :)
Can you make a video on how to build an engine in MOTA 8?
The wording is very confusing on it.
Hi Jax, maybe at somepoint... I've got the next few vids all lined up at the min but I want to do another with Mota.
@@AutoBeta2T Sounds great!
Glad to see someone doing dyno tests on things i’ve always wondered.
Keep up the great work man! i love it!!
That pipe looks identical to a Blair pipe.
Hi, it's quite a bit different as it doesn't use the horn coefficient.
Could you help me calculate the exhaust for my bike?😉
What bike is it?
@@AutoBeta2T DT125 with athena 125.
@LesiuPL hi, if you email me at autobeta2t@yahoo.com
Iterative goal-seek or A.I ?
If this is AI my calculator had it built in back in 1992.
Agreed, but it made a good title for the video. Side note. I ran the program for port timing and expansion chamber optimisation for the same engine and what came out was massively different to common perceived correct design. Is the program wrong or did it look at the problem from a different perspective... the common truths and realities we are conditioned to from an early age make us dismiss out of the norm thinking. Maybe the mirror of AI could broaden our perspective?
Either way, it's a cool feature that I want to explore more.
And agree with you - is it Al? I battled with this argument myself before putting the video up.
Cheers 😁
@@AutoBeta2T All optimization algorithms need a fitness formula to determine if they are making progress. Developing this is sometimes where things go wrong and we don't realize till we are done evolving our result. It may be optimizing for the wrong metric, or solving the wrong problem.
A lot of times simulating with neural networks etc you end up with the network braking the simulation and exploiting errors to increase it's score instead of doing well on the task you attempted to evolve. There's a wonderful range of videos on youtube showing hilarious results.
@1kreature, cheers for the extra info.
Do you have a link to the videos you mentioned?
@@AutoBeta2T I think you will enjoy this one ua-cam.com/video/OhCzX0iLnOc/v-deo.html especially when you get to the running AI or the AI trying to identify fish.
@@AutoBeta2T In this video at 2:30 the AI finds a bug in the simulation allowing it to advance and "win" over the other AI. ua-cam.com/video/Lu56xVlZ40M/v-deo.html
At 4:00 the AI finds a way to get rid of the ramp in the simulation by glitching it out of the playing area. Again, not supposed to happen, but funny that it did. From then it just keeps getting weird with other glitches in simulation.
How do I get this software
Hi - form here:
www.iwt.com.au/mota-software/overview/
Are you tested the AI Pipe against your Design??
Hi, no I haven't tested this one. I did do one in the Mick Abbey video, but it was a different design. I do want to have a go a testing one with the rear cone like this to.see how it goes.
The A.I. is just a program written by humans. With the limit of their knowledge of the subject.
Yep, I was a bit gimmicky with the title. Still a clever feature that saves a lot of time but still requires a bit more work in the sim and dyno testing after.
i beat Mota in 5 minutes ..simply maximize pipe , that is pipe diameter , .... first go 150mm diameter , only 3 parts , 12 inch header 12 inch first cone and 12 inch end cone ,no belly , your jaws drop , 6000 to 16000 rpm like freight train .. adding belly with narrow your band so no belly .. remember you need 360 degree intake to connect pipe to case and transfers , so you need to raise window holes up , to turn it into a case reed , now you can keep increasing case volume and pipe diameter to increase power to no end , unlimited power or you do it other way ,stuff case with skinny pipe and thats the end , limited powder.