I appreciate Adam. I didn't have a problem with Jokic winning MVP last year, well deserved -- but I don't like that some of the same people who smugly said last year that Luka can't be in the MVP conversation because his team was the 5th seed -- despite him putting up 34/10/9, having a 73 point game, carrying the team through injuries and then leading their playoff push towards the end of the season -- are now arguing for Jokic to be the MVP as if standings don't even matter so long as you're having an unbelievable season. Jokic IS having an unbelievable season, undeniably. But where was the support for Luka's unbelievable season last year? No one wanted to argue for him (least of all HP Basketball)
Imo last year Luka was above SGA and very close to Jokic for the MVP. But ESPN pushed for SGA over both of them and it affected Luka much more than Joker because Joker just got the ring and was already stripped off the MVP by the narrative in the previous season. Also you can't say that Luka had a better individual season than Jokic last year. His traditional stats were monstrous but Jokic was holding all advanced stats by a fine margins. BPM was 13.2 to 9.9...WS 17 to 12...VORP 10.6 to 8.0...PER 32.4 to 24.8. This year Jokic clearly has a better individual season that SGA but I don't think he will get MVP if Nuggets weren't at least 4th seed. Even 4th seed might not be enough since ESPN will probably push for SGA again.
Wish Matt and Adam delved more into the "FO/Coaching/ownership" balance of the rest of the guys. Id assume ownership is highest on Mike given the Kroenkes love him and he olays every game, coaching is highest on murray because of their history, fo higher on guys like watson because they picked them, ect Also It seemed Adam's of the opinion they are moving on from Murray this summer unless they win. Hard to do all the contracts i suppose. Quickley and bruce brown for jamal who says no?
The “Shai deserves MVP because OKC has a better record” argument doesn’t make sense to me. Their great record shows how good OKC is as a team, how deep they are, how well coached they are, etc. If you remove Shai from the equation (let’s say he gets injured), OKC would still be REALLY good. If you remove Jokic from the equation, Denver becomes one of the worst teams in the league.
It's kind of the same thing for OKC when Shai isn't there. Their offensive rating is something like 118 with Shai and 98 without. That's comparable to being worse than the wizards lol. Nuggets beat the clippers, without jokic and AG. Maybe it's a fluke, due to the LA fires, so maybe clippers weren't into the game, so it's probably not a real game to draw any conclusions from 😂
The CBA changed things drastically for the Nuggets. They were constructed on the idea you can spend out of problems and the owners decided to get rid of that option so they wouldn't be shamed by the Warriors (and to a lesser extent the Clippers) for being cheap. It's a shame but we probably lost a chip or two even best case scenario as we retool to the new financial realities (assuming the Kroenkes were ever gonna REALLY spend)
It’s an interesting theory that teams cannot have 3 “max” players under the new CBA. It seems rather owner-dependent. The Celtics are due to have $198 mil in payroll for their starting 5 next season. Even if they trade one of their non-stars for lower paid players, their payroll will still be sky high. On the Thunder, both Holmgren and Williams will be extension eligible this summer and will want max contract extensions. Obviously, Holmgren’s injuries enter into the situation, but if he comes back and ends the season strong, his agent will request a max extension also - maybe it winds up being a bit like Porter with the Nuggets in that the team got a smallish concession but it still wound up being a max contract. If their current “big 3” get healthy, their only way out is to trade Williams or Holmgren prior to extending them. The Cavs will have 3 max contract guys next season when Mobley’s extension kicks in (Mitchell and Garland both have “max contracts” albeit somewhat smaller than some others). The Knicks are technically not there because Brunson gave the team a small discount but they are still on track to be paying $173 mil for their starting 5 next season. For Mares to be correct, most of the top contenders would have to trade one of their main guys for salary relief. So - I don’t think Adam is 100% correct. I think it’s going to come down to which owners have the stomach for a super high end payroll.
In other opinion news, I think absolutely think the Nuggets should continue to roll with a Westbrook/Murray backcourt. Just having Westbrook to get the ball upcourt quickly and leave them with more clock and save some wear and tear on Murray is worth it.
Winning in the regular season matters, but in a league where even teams with negative records make the postseason, it sure doesn't matter that much any more. You can dislike that (and I do), but that is the state of the current NBA.
IDK, when 1st seeds go down in the 1st round regularly this can be a fair take, but teams under .500 have made the playoffs for as long as I can remember and there are only 2 of those upsets in history and the last one happened a quarter century ago.
@@rubaiyat300 Oh for sure, the top teams still generally win, but then it's also not just about winning the title. E.g. the Mavs winning the West and getting to the final last season.
I love Jokic (I’m here bc of him as I’m Pacers fan who has been going to 30-40 games yearly since 87-88), but RIGHT NOW SGA is the MVP (best player is different than MVP which goes to an elite player on the best or 2nd best team in a conference usually if as long as that player is playing at an undisputed top1-4 player in the world level). If it just went to the best player in the world period every year Wilt, MJ, LeBron would all have way more MVP! We can’t ignore the fact right now SGA is #1 in EPM Estimated Wins (EW) WINshares Defensive WinShares WS/48 per 48 or he was pre last night he may be close to tied with Joker now Net Rating Defensive Rating Raw +/- per game at +12 (2nd best +/- year ever for someone with 30+ PPG only barely behind unanimous 15-16 Curry MVP at +12.9) VORP (essentially tied with Jokic at 4.3) Total points Total FG made 2nd in BPM, PER, total steals, DBPM, OBPM. Joker and SGA are both having amazing seasons, but Nuggets on pace for about 48-52 wins while OKC (without Chet most of yr, I-Hart & Caruso half the yr) is on pace for 68-70 wins. If it were the other way around then Jokic be MVP too (and even more clearly then SGA bc best player in the world). This can absolutely change but SGA right now is -155 vs Joker +140 for that very reasons I listed above. PS Jokic was robbed in 2022-23 by Embiid when Nuggets #1 seed, he averaged 25pt triple double on 70% TS%, was number 1 in every analytic (unlike this year where SGA and him split 1/2 in most), 76ers were 11-5 or something without Embiid that year while Nuggets were under .500 without Joker. Jok should have won 4 in a row going for 5 this yr, but objectively as of TODAY SGA deserves to be MVP. PSS I know many Lakers fans are annoying and Westbrook has been a BIG plus, but can we please stop comparing the situations w/ him makin 45-50 million per year on old AF injured Lakers roster vs 3.3 million per yr on Nuggets? Thats 16X less per yr😅. If he was makin 48 million per yr then right now Nuggets don’t have Murray &/or MPJ or AG financially which is a completely diff team and not close to as good.
Reducing Russ hate to Lakers fans is wild mentally challenged stuff. The hate campaign started IMMEDIATELY after awarding him with the MVP and it didn't stop until a little bit with the Clippers and now, probably mostly because of Jokic.
Christian is great and has awesome ability BUT he can't hit a 3 and that harms the team. Westbrook is awesome in terms of hustle , interior penetration and defense but is a TURN over machine which creates a deficit for the team. Payton is a mystery in that he has a good game, then take 2 or 3 off and simply plays D. Strawther I actually think has a solid approach and he is a decent defending, rebounder and interior scorer. His challenge is he needs to get stronger and also be able hit threes with different angles.
Its a bad look for ownership if there is persistent reporting that they weigh in to back Braun over other players, because 1) it makes ownership look meddlesome even at the role player level, and 2) it cannot help but look racist. Sorry I inserted that but Braun didn’t go to Missouri or have some other historic tie to the Kroenkes - he’s from Kansas, not Missouri - and there is nothing more on which to hang one’s hat other than “white, heartland guy.”
I think having more wins for MVP just waters down the award. It should always go to the best player having the bes t season period. Smh your talking about a guy having an advantage for having more talent around them Think about it
That Shai should be MVP might be the stupidest thing Adam Mares has ever said. Just imagine a trade: Jokic for Shai! Who wins that trade? OKC and it's not even close! Jokic to OKC would be worse for the rest of the league than Kevin Durant to the Warriors. With Jokic, OKC would automatically win at least 70 games and maybe lose 2 games in the entire playoffs on way to a Championship. Denver would struggle to win 48 games they are on pace to win now. Without Jokic they would not get out of the 1st round, even with Shai. Jokic's supporting cast is just greatly inferior and it's not an argument. OKC's 2nd in the NBA in points allowed at 103. Denver is 24th in defense giving up 117pts/game. That is why OKC is blowing out teams and Denver struggles to beat even bad teams even though their offense is scoring 120 pts/game. It's not because Shai is better than Jokic. It's because OKC bench has Alex Caruso, Kendrich Williams and AJ MItchell. The Nuggets bench has Russell Westbrook, Peyton Watson and Julian Srawther. It's no contest. Jokic is doing more with less. And the Nuggets are 4th, not in the play-in.
The problem with that argument is that if Jokic was 12th seed with these numbers they wouldn’t give it to him. And your “trade” him logic would still make sense lol. The reason why OKC would be better with Jokic is because .. Jokic is better than SGA. But mvp hasn’t always been who’s better.
@@officerricky3230 Denver is the 4 seed now, and only 2 games back in the lost column of 2nd. Not 12th. Standings DO matter. You probably need to be a top 4 team, but not the #1 or #2 team. Jokic won as the 6th seed his first MVP. If Joker was having a season like last year, voters would say "Give it to SGA." But, if he's averaging a near 30 pt triple double - as a center that has NEVER been done in NBA history?
@@809Mornelle is not supposed to be a diss but you said “Westbrook has 2 scoring titles” like it doesn’t add much but you missed what Matt said “Beal also has one scoring tittle, but combined with everything else it does add a lot to Jokic”. I was just telling you what everything else was
@ yeah I understand your statement. Beal won his scoring title playing alongside Westbrook as well , so did KD and PG had his best offensive season next to him and Jokic is as well . The narrative for years is that he’s selfish and doesn’t help his teammates, must be weird coincidences because Russ is a vampire in the locker room. He can’t shoot the basketball and turns the ball over so much , so he shouldn’t be in the league .
@ Yeah I think there are way too many anti Westbrook narratives out there. His time with the Lakers didn’t help at all. But he still a first ballot hall of famer
What is wrong with you people. Peyton Watson is a budding Superstar mpj All-Star next year Jillian strother is where Watson was last year and can be a superstar as well Christian Brian will be an elite defender this team is championship quality it'll prove out over the next month's
Happy to see Adam side by side with Matt. This is the "A" team.
I am ADAMant that we need MOORE of this world's finest duo.
The GOAT pair. Thank you for bringing back Worlds Finest
World's Finest!!! Miss you guys together!
I appreciate Adam. I didn't have a problem with Jokic winning MVP last year, well deserved -- but I don't like that some of the same people who smugly said last year that Luka can't be in the MVP conversation because his team was the 5th seed -- despite him putting up 34/10/9, having a 73 point game, carrying the team through injuries and then leading their playoff push towards the end of the season -- are now arguing for Jokic to be the MVP as if standings don't even matter so long as you're having an unbelievable season. Jokic IS having an unbelievable season, undeniably. But where was the support for Luka's unbelievable season last year? No one wanted to argue for him (least of all HP Basketball)
Imo last year Luka was above SGA and very close to Jokic for the MVP. But ESPN pushed for SGA over both of them and it affected Luka much more than Joker because Joker just got the ring and was already stripped off the MVP by the narrative in the previous season.
Also you can't say that Luka had a better individual season than Jokic last year. His traditional stats were monstrous but Jokic was holding all advanced stats by a fine margins. BPM was 13.2 to 9.9...WS 17 to 12...VORP 10.6 to 8.0...PER 32.4 to 24.8.
This year Jokic clearly has a better individual season that SGA but I don't think he will get MVP if Nuggets weren't at least 4th seed. Even 4th seed might not be enough since ESPN will probably push for SGA again.
Waited for this reunion!!🎉👏
great show gents! glad to see worlds finest again!
Adam @ 14:00 i totally agree i think there a binch of styles you can olay with jokic
The best thing about Matt is he doesn't get walked over by Adam.
Wish Matt and Adam delved more into the "FO/Coaching/ownership" balance of the rest of the guys. Id assume ownership is highest on Mike given the Kroenkes love him and he olays every game, coaching is highest on murray because of their history, fo higher on guys like watson because they picked them, ect
Also It seemed Adam's of the opinion they are moving on from Murray this summer unless they win. Hard to do all the contracts i suppose. Quickley and bruce brown for jamal who says no?
Matt, I knew Adam would eventually coming crying back to you.
The “Shai deserves MVP because OKC has a better record” argument doesn’t make sense to me. Their great record shows how good OKC is as a team, how deep they are, how well coached they are, etc. If you remove Shai from the equation (let’s say he gets injured), OKC would still be REALLY good. If you remove Jokic from the equation, Denver becomes one of the worst teams in the league.
It's kind of the same thing for OKC when Shai isn't there. Their offensive rating is something like 118 with Shai and 98 without. That's comparable to being worse than the wizards lol.
Nuggets beat the clippers, without jokic and AG. Maybe it's a fluke, due to the LA fires, so maybe clippers weren't into the game, so it's probably not a real game to draw any conclusions from 😂
15:58 Matt is a 100% right. MPJ just playing better relative to his contract compared to Jamal. The nuggets have no leverage in a Jamal trade .
The CBA changed things drastically for the Nuggets. They were constructed on the idea you can spend out of problems and the owners decided to get rid of that option so they wouldn't be shamed by the Warriors (and to a lesser extent the Clippers) for being cheap. It's a shame but we probably lost a chip or two even best case scenario as we retool to the new financial realities (assuming the Kroenkes were ever gonna REALLY spend)
Jokic is also top 5 in steals
This is my superbowl
It’s an interesting theory that teams cannot have 3 “max” players under the new CBA. It seems rather owner-dependent. The Celtics are due to have $198 mil in payroll for their starting 5 next season. Even if they trade one of their non-stars for lower paid players, their payroll will still be sky high. On the Thunder, both Holmgren and Williams will be extension eligible this summer and will want max contract extensions. Obviously, Holmgren’s injuries enter into the situation, but if he comes back and ends the season strong, his agent will request a max extension also - maybe it winds up being a bit like Porter with the Nuggets in that the team got a smallish concession but it still wound up being a max contract. If their current “big 3” get healthy, their only way out is to trade Williams or Holmgren prior to extending them. The Cavs will have 3 max contract guys next season when Mobley’s extension kicks in (Mitchell and Garland both have “max contracts” albeit somewhat smaller than some others). The Knicks are technically not there because Brunson gave the team a small discount but they are still on track to be paying $173 mil for their starting 5 next season. For Mares to be correct, most of the top contenders would have to trade one of their main guys for salary relief. So - I don’t think Adam is 100% correct. I think it’s going to come down to which owners have the stomach for a super high end payroll.
In other opinion news, I think absolutely think the Nuggets should continue to roll with a Westbrook/Murray backcourt. Just having Westbrook to get the ball upcourt quickly and leave them with more clock and save some wear and tear on Murray is worth it.
Winning in the regular season matters, but in a league where even teams with negative records make the postseason, it sure doesn't matter that much any more.
You can dislike that (and I do), but that is the state of the current NBA.
IDK, when 1st seeds go down in the 1st round regularly this can be a fair take, but teams under .500 have made the playoffs for as long as I can remember and there are only 2 of those upsets in history and the last one happened a quarter century ago.
@@rubaiyat300 Oh for sure, the top teams still generally win, but then it's also not just about winning the title. E.g. the Mavs winning the West and getting to the final last season.
What happened with the talk of Lonnie Walker
Julian is him. He needs the minutes too.
Hey guys
I love Jokic (I’m here bc of him as I’m Pacers fan who has been going to 30-40 games yearly since 87-88), but RIGHT NOW SGA is the MVP (best player is different than MVP which goes to an elite player on the best or 2nd best team in a conference usually if as long as that player is playing at an undisputed top1-4 player in the world level). If it just went to the best player in the world period every year Wilt, MJ, LeBron would all have way more MVP!
We can’t ignore the fact right now SGA is #1 in
EPM
Estimated Wins (EW)
WINshares
Defensive WinShares
WS/48 per 48 or he was pre last night he may be close to tied with Joker now
Net Rating
Defensive Rating
Raw +/- per game at +12 (2nd best +/- year ever for someone with 30+ PPG only barely behind unanimous 15-16 Curry MVP at +12.9)
VORP (essentially tied with Jokic at 4.3)
Total points
Total FG made
2nd in BPM, PER, total steals, DBPM, OBPM.
Joker and SGA are both having amazing seasons, but Nuggets on pace for about 48-52 wins while OKC (without Chet most of yr, I-Hart & Caruso half the yr) is on pace for 68-70 wins. If it were the other way around then Jokic be MVP too (and even more clearly then SGA bc best player in the world).
This can absolutely change but SGA right now is -155 vs Joker +140 for that very reasons I listed above.
PS Jokic was robbed in 2022-23 by Embiid when Nuggets #1 seed, he averaged 25pt triple double on 70% TS%, was number 1 in every analytic (unlike this year where SGA and him split 1/2 in most), 76ers were 11-5 or something without Embiid that year while Nuggets were under .500 without Joker.
Jok should have won 4 in a row going for 5 this yr, but objectively as of TODAY SGA deserves to be MVP.
PSS I know many Lakers fans are annoying and Westbrook has been a BIG plus, but can we please stop comparing the situations w/ him makin 45-50 million per year on old AF injured Lakers roster vs 3.3 million per yr on Nuggets? Thats 16X less per yr😅. If he was makin 48 million per yr then right now Nuggets don’t have Murray &/or MPJ or AG financially which is a completely diff team and not close to as good.
2nd in assists 3rd in rebounding
Reducing Russ hate to Lakers fans is wild mentally challenged stuff.
The hate campaign started IMMEDIATELY after awarding him with the MVP and it didn't stop until a little bit with the Clippers and now, probably mostly because of Jokic.
If Jok finish season averaging triple double and they are no.2 in the west is that enough for him to win MVP?
Christian is great and has awesome ability BUT he can't hit a 3 and that harms the team.
Westbrook is awesome in terms of hustle , interior penetration and defense but is a TURN over machine which creates a deficit for the team.
Payton is a mystery in that he has a good game, then take 2 or 3 off and simply plays D.
Strawther I actually think has a solid approach and he is a decent defending, rebounder and interior scorer. His challenge is he needs to get stronger and also be able hit threes with different angles.
Its a bad look for ownership if there is persistent reporting that they weigh in to back Braun over other players, because 1) it makes ownership look meddlesome even at the role player level, and 2) it cannot help but look racist. Sorry I inserted that but Braun didn’t go to Missouri or have some other historic tie to the Kroenkes - he’s from Kansas, not Missouri - and there is nothing more on which to hang one’s hat other than “white, heartland guy.”
Payton is naturally a 2.
I think having more wins for MVP just waters down the award. It should always go to the best player having the bes t season period. Smh your talking about a guy having an advantage for having more talent around them
Think about it
Okay… Jokić getting glazed by Nuggets fans is fine but Defensive Player of the Year???? Stop it.
That Shai should be MVP might be the stupidest thing Adam Mares has ever said. Just imagine a trade: Jokic for Shai! Who wins that trade? OKC and it's not even close! Jokic to OKC would be worse for the rest of the league than Kevin Durant to the Warriors. With Jokic, OKC would automatically win at least 70 games and maybe lose 2 games in the entire playoffs on way to a Championship. Denver would struggle to win 48 games they are on pace to win now. Without Jokic they would not get out of the 1st round, even with Shai. Jokic's supporting cast is just greatly inferior and it's not an argument. OKC's 2nd in the NBA in points allowed at 103. Denver is 24th in defense giving up 117pts/game. That is why OKC is blowing out teams and Denver struggles to beat even bad teams even though their offense is scoring 120 pts/game. It's not because Shai is better than Jokic. It's because OKC bench has Alex Caruso, Kendrich Williams and AJ MItchell. The Nuggets bench has Russell Westbrook, Peyton Watson and Julian Srawther. It's no contest. Jokic is doing more with less. And the Nuggets are 4th, not in the play-in.
The problem with that argument is that if Jokic was 12th seed with these numbers they wouldn’t give it to him. And your “trade” him logic would still make sense lol. The reason why OKC would be better with Jokic is because .. Jokic is better than SGA. But mvp hasn’t always been who’s better.
@@officerricky3230 Denver is the 4 seed now, and only 2 games back in the lost column of 2nd. Not 12th. Standings DO matter. You probably need to be a top 4 team, but not the #1 or #2 team. Jokic won as the 6th seed his first MVP. If Joker was having a season like last year, voters would say "Give it to SGA." But, if he's averaging a near 30 pt triple double - as a center that has NEVER been done in NBA history?
Westbrook won 2 scoring titles and 3 assists titles but is still disrespected those things don’t mean anything
Westbrook only has 1 mvp and no FMVP
@ only 36/4800 players won mvp is that suppose to be a diss 😂
@@809Mornelle is not supposed to be a diss but you said “Westbrook has 2 scoring titles” like it doesn’t add much but you missed what Matt said “Beal also has one scoring tittle, but combined with everything else it does add a lot to Jokic”. I was just telling you what everything else was
@ yeah I understand your statement. Beal won his scoring title playing alongside Westbrook as well , so did KD and PG had his best offensive season next to him and Jokic is as well . The narrative for years is that he’s selfish and doesn’t help his teammates, must be weird coincidences because Russ is a vampire in the locker room. He can’t shoot the basketball and turns the ball over so much , so he shouldn’t be in the league .
@ Yeah I think there are way too many anti Westbrook narratives out there. His time with the Lakers didn’t help at all. But he still a first ballot hall of famer
MVP, not best player in the best team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"Most v... player!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!zzzzzzzzzzzzz
What is wrong with you people. Peyton Watson is a budding Superstar mpj All-Star next year Jillian strother is where Watson was last year and can be a superstar as well Christian Brian will be an elite defender this team is championship quality it'll prove out over the next month's
Team is champ quality cuz of jokic but Peyton, mpj Julian will never sniff an Allstar game let alone “superstar”
And Jabum as the second best guy is also not enough, it's enough for mediocrity.
Imo i think Christian Braun is over rated. I think his shot is bad/inconsistent and his defence a
Has taken steps backwards
Is Adam back?
Nuggets Conspiracy Jokic getting Uber agressive shooting wise is showing his higher volume usage to show Jamal is expensable😮😮😶🌫️🫣