+ 1 for 'Don't let the machine tell you what to do!' Great vid. Checked this out after experimenting with the different scales last night. The rhythmic results have forced me to abandon my social life once again, for the love of the grooove...
Hi, I just wanted to say thanks very much for your tutorials! I find them really easy to understand and really helpful. I am new to drum programming and have just bought a TR-8 and you have helped me a lot! Many thanks indeed :) Matt
Great tutorial. I'm not great with beats as it is, but your instructions helped so very much with my understanding and perspective. Pretty much played to my own out of beat (I know they are not right on) synth compositions, 30 years old and very current. I'm a hobbyist but I want to finally give them some depth and share in a more formal way with my other musician friends. I am looking at this device for purchase a little later in the future. Thanks!!
That's a very nice comment, glad to hear my videos inspired you! :) The TR 8 is a brilliant instrument, especially for realtime performance with all the classic sounds of the original TR machines. When you use the effects and tweak the sounds you can make whole tracks just with this thing by itself. I highly recommend the 7X7 upgrade so you'll get an 808, 909, 707, 727 and 606 all in one box.
Very interesting. Will try this out but I am thinking... why couldn't you have played it 4/4 and turned up the shuffle?wouldnt that have a similar effect?
Dom Giacalone Sometimes this can really work, yes. The answer to this is really complicated but I'll try to explain as good as I can: For the pattern in the video you'd get the same result on scale three if you place the second kick on step eight instead of seven and set the shuffle knob somewhere close to nine 'o clock. But this is only possible because this pattern doesn't use any faster notes, for example on the hihat (the tempo can be counted as one or two bars). Generally the most important thing to consider is this: Shuffle manipulates the timing of all even number steps, so they are played a little earlier or later in the grid, depending on whether you move the shuffle knob to the left (earlier) or to the right (later). All the odd number steps are not affected by shuffle. It seems to me like many people try to avoid using the triplet scales but there is no reason to do so. Sometimes the groove you want can only be achieved this way.
LousyFacelift makes sense. You even mention in the video you have the ability to program faster notes with it set up like this. I just bought this machine two days ago and your videos have been a big help getting my head wrapped around it!
Dom Giacalone About the faster notes: When using scale four you get only half a measure for one bar of sixteen steps. This means that A and B combined only give you one measure with the indicated downbeats on A1 (1) A9 (2) B1 (3) and B9 (4) but let you program 32th notes fast enough for rolls or breakbeats. Thanks for the nice comment! :)
for non-trained musicians only, if one could edit the MIDI under the microscope, like on an old Roland MC-50 MK2, one discovers that triplets and non-triplet figures live in a timing zone where the TPQ (ticks per quarter note) is a number that is divisible by a “3” AND a “2”, so yes, Roland does make it confusing for triplet figures in the “4 beats per bar” time frame, follow the instructions in the manual and trust Roland, their system compensates but works.
So what do you think about the way Roland are explaining things in their official Aira videos? And by "explaining" I actually mean something that isn't really explaining anything, just spreading a lot of confusion, which is something they seem to enjoy doing from time to time... ua-cam.com/video/KJrBUf_R7WI/v-deo.html or this one - ua-cam.com/video/GTKAIGvnouc/v-deo.html
Hi there, was just wandering, cause I have got the newer version TR8-S recently, if this new SUB-steps function is the solution, which of course wasnt there on the TR-8... greets - Vanni
Hi! Well, not really. The point of this video is that people tend to shy away from using a different scale other than 16 steps per (four fourths) measure even if the result they actually aim for suggests something different in some cases. Sometimes you can get to the desired result by implementing shuffle (swing) on a sixteen step scale but then again at another point in the pattern this could lead to "problems" or let's say to "different", "unwanted" or at least "unexpected" results .The solution to this is learning how to analyze and how to count through the rhythmic structures of the music you're listening to and to find the correlating scale and time signature when trying to write these beats yourself. These misunderstandings can get really frustrating. Think about sampling, when people try to chop odd time signature phrases without noticing they cannot be rearranged seamlessly in the four fourths grid they have selected in their sequencers. By not providing twelve steps for the triplet scales by default in the TR 8 and by supporting videos that show a rather questionable usage of triplet scales involving 16 steps instead of 12, even Roland themselves add to the confusion (but that's just how we know them I guess...) But to get back to your initial question with the sub steps - it's all in the resolution of steps. You have four steps per quarternote in a sixteen step scale and three steps per quarternote in a twelve step scale, so you could make up for the change in scales if the number of substeps went up to a total of twelve (three times four) steps per quarternote but I don't know if the TR 8 S provides so many substeps. Thanks for watching and leaving this interesting question in the comments!
I'm new to the TR8, have been watching your videos and they've been really helpful. THANK YOU for these videos, as you say the support from Roland is really poor - they should hire you. Keep up the great work.
It will take me a while to get with this, but I'm gonna keep on watching this till I get it. If I wanted to program say pink Floyd money in 7/8 time then do I use scale 4 and go for last step 7 or even 14?
I think I got it I used speed 60 bpm scale 4 (bottom one) used 16 beats for pattern A and last step 12 for pattern B with a straight "4/4" drum beat.....ace! You're a genius!
@@burrencrawler It doesn't matter so much how you devide these these measures, if you make it two bars with 14 steps each or one with 16 and one with 12, both results in a 7/4 beat when the tempo is 60 bpm. Love Pink Floyd by the way and "Money" is such a cool song... Thank you so much!
pɥrox .exe You can set the accents yourself, they light up in red. It often makes sense to put them on the downbeats though. When keeping the accent key pressed when placing an accent step you can also set half accents btw. They light up purple.
thanks for the great vid, could i ask if there is any way to adjust the length of any given instrument on the TR08? eg. you want to use a high hat with two different lengths in your pattern.
Zacki Hamid There is a dedicated decay knob for each track but the instruments respond quite differently to the setting of this knob just like most true analog machines. Knob movements can only be recorded using external sequencers like Ableton Live or an Akai MPC, not in the TR 8 itself. If you're not using an external sequencer you would have to change the sounds live.
Tony Crown They released a detailed owner's manual on their Roland support page. This wasn't yet the case when I bought mine. You can find many more videos on the TR 8 on my channel or ask me your questions and I'll try to help.
@@LousyFacelift Thanks. Yea, I can operate it, meaning looking for technique of beats. Meaning "this is how to make a trap beat" this is how to make a dub beat ect... theres a lot of crappy videos to sort through !
Tony Crown Check out this channel: ua-cam.com/channels/EAKYpdvnvZvzJ1ogK_dw5Q.html There are some good examples of different rhythms. Maybe I'll send another link that I found just recently. It's important to learn how to count. It may sound silly but sometimes it's not easy trying to count through the downbeats of a track even when it's the usual four fourths pattern. For example "In the Air Tonight" by Phil Collins throws me off all the time because it's programmed in such a special kind of way. And it gets more complicated when dealing with different time signatures, so it needs practice to find out how these rhythms translate over to a drum machine.
Is it possible to use the "Last Step" feature and play triplets in 5/4, 6/4, etc? Great tutorial on the machine. I think sometimes the confusion people experience is due to the fact that triplets do not exist in musical notation (they have to be written as an aside); they are a kind of unicorn that has no effect on the time signature itself. So, I can play a triplet (crotchet triplets, 8th triplets or 16th triplets) in any time signature (3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 11/8, etc etc), because it is a division of a note value, not the time. Machines have a hard time (LOL) getting at this, because it is a very human feel. Thanks again for getting at the tech side of this stuff.
Hi! Yes, it is absolutely possible to use a last step setting of twelve and program triplets on any scale you want. You could even use only nine steps without any problems when the TR 8 is not MIDI synced to any other machine. If it is though, choosing the right scale is really important to find the matching tempo for all devices used in your MIDI setup.
is it possible to use the four step scale for kicks and triplet scale for hats or whatever, and keep the BPM aligned to the quarter notes? Does that makes sense? I'm thinking of investing in a TR8, but I need something flexible enough for odd times and midi syncing. thanks for your videos, really helpful stuff.
S BRAND Hi! No you can't program different last step settings or different time signatures for individual instrument tracks. It's all really basic sequencing like on the originals. You would have to use a more flexible host sequencer that triggers the sounds of the TR 8.
+LousyFacelift thanks buddy. I love the tr8 sounds and the interface is lovely, feels like a mixing board/dub thing. but the limitations might be too, uh, limiting for me. thanks for your help.
4/4 = 1e&a 2e&a 3/4 = 1&a 2&a Just say the above out loud and whatever your beat sounds closes to, thats the time you are in. I like to always keep mine on 4/4 using all 16 steps and just use the swing to kick the grove into a 3/4 feel. This way when you put a melody over it you still have the standard 4/4 timing.
Always sticking to 4/4 and applying swing doesn't work for anything though. As an example listen to "The Machine In The Ghost" by Apollo 440 and try to replicate that beat using 4/4 and swing - It doesn't work! And why would you want to avoid the correct scale and use swing on 4/4 instead?
@@LousyFacelift I'm not trying to replicate someone else's song that has a specific song signature, if you are remaking someones song in a certain key and time sig, then yeah, use that key and time sig. I use 4/4 in my songs to get my drums sounding 3/4. The tr-8, says scale, but its confusing bc its a scale of time. Not scale as in key signature. Swing is time shifting, you swing it forward or you swing it back, time shifting in music is 2/4 3/4 3/4, ect. I write all my songs in 4/4, so if I need my drums to sound 3/4 I don't want to rewrite the whole melody, it won't work. That's why I use swing to shift the time of my drums.
NateSanti Yes, that's your choice of course and sometimes I do that, too. I just wanted to clarify that using swing on 16 steps doesn't lead to the same result as using a triplet scale with twelve steps except for a few examples (like "Clubbed To Death" from the Matrix soundtrack). Swing only affects the position of all the even number steps, moving them to the left or to the right in the grid. Odd number steps are not shifted in any way. When using a positive swing value (higher than 50%) it creates a triplet feel at around 66% when the second sixteenth falls in the same place as compared to the second step in scale one (or step three in scale two) on the TR 8. The problem is the position of step number three in scale one which cannot be reached this way.
@@LousyFacelift true, thats why if you have a song in 3/4 then use a 3/4 time sig lol, my comment was getting the groove to do what I want it to do, like your example in the video in my 4/4 song. You are talking about a whole song, in which case, YES use the correct time sig, I am talking about getting just my kick to go dum di duh in a a dum da di duh song, without shifting the whole song to 3/4. In the end we are talking about two different things that can achieve the same result if applied in a limited way, getting the kick to hit a certain way. But, yes I agree this will not work on everything, it's not suppose too.
Great explanation of 3/3 timing in light of 4/4 world. A little confused and it looks like Roland is not a friend to 3/3 timers by this but great explanation. Thanks!!! Subbed.
There's no such thing as "3/3" timing.... there are no such thing as "third" notes. Triplet timing is normally expressed as "6/8", or 6 eighth notes per bar.
John Music I muted all the parts that I didn't use for this demo. Press INST PLAY and pad 16 (MUTE). Here you can deactivate individual tracks by pressing the corresponding step key or the instrument key beneath the fader. Press pad 16 again to get back to instrument play mode.
Hey LF , I was wondering if you know more about the hidden menus on the TR8 & how I can access them? and what they are, eg. lighting modes (that are the least flashy & annoying of all)and other stuff? Your video rocked, I had to watch it a couple of times but I took all in now
Thanks a lot! Yes, I made two videos on the boot mode settings in the TR 8. This is the first one: ua-cam.com/video/V1wlJe82VmI/v-deo.html and then there is the second one with the same title only named part 2. When I made these vides some of these functions were indeed "secret" but Roland updated their online manuals so everything should now be documented on their website. I haven't covered their latest additions in a video though. There is now also a mode that can be used to trigger sounds of an external sampler like the SP-404 (A or SX) with one of the instrument parts and also a performance function that works like a step repeat for any number of steps that can be selected while playing back a pattern. This can be accessed in the latest firmware by holding down TR REC and INST PLAY simultaneously and then holding down the step keys you wish to use in between performance. If only one step key is held, you'll get a nice little stutter effect. Quite fun actually...
is possible to assign different scale to different instrument? for example if i want that my kick works i 3/4 and my snare in 5/4 is possible to do it?
No, unfortunately. Last step assignments and scales are global in the pattern, no individual track lengths. Makes it easier but more restricted in a way.
Lagaleriedare In most cases you can simply plug the MIDI Out of the master device into the MIDI In of the TR 8, hit play on the master and the TR 8 will be synched. If this doesn't work please watch my video on the boot mode functions and hidden features and see if that helps finding the setting that's best for you. Step key number 6 is used when you want the TR 8 to ignore start/stop messages but still listen to the tempo of an external unit, so that you can start the other machine without it and at some point later press play on the TR 8 and have it play along in the same tempo.
This is great. After owning my tr-8 for over a year, it's strange to find 'new' hidden features that I have never seen in documentation. If it is in a manual somewhere, it surely hasn't been presented very clearly.
DJSILKWOLF Yes, when the TR 8 was released there were quite many functions not explained in the manual. 16 steps instead of 12 in scales one and two is an extremely confusing default setting and Roland even added on to that confusion by supporting at least one totally misleading video under the AIRA name, in which someone talks about using these scales with 16 steps for trap style hihats. They don't exactly help to make their customers understand the way things work in the TR 8... Thanks for the nice comment! 😀👍
love this guy!.... lol thanks for all your effort. Danke zier.... Hey one thing.... If your last step was #15 instead of #12 in 3:4 scale mode, the BPM would still read correctly tho right....??
aliasghar907 That' s a very interesting question, actually I don't think so. If you tried to synch the TR 8, last step set to 15 to another machine set to twelve steps per bar, I assume the TR 8 would reach step 13 in bar one at the same time the other machine reaches step one in bar two. It would still be cool to use a 15 step setting and adjust the tempo though because that would give you a resolution of five steps per quarter note in a 3/4 measure. That could lead to very interesting results. Thanks a lot for watching and leaving a great comment!
I just subscribed to a channel called "Sound Art Elevation". There you can find some great examples on how to program patterns for many different genres. I haven't watched all these vids myself yet, so I don't know how the subject of scales is covered there. I think the most important part is learning how to count these different time signatures. In the TR 8 you have these highlighted step keys as a good indication where the downbeats are, so that basically tells you how to count these beats. Just keep in mind that scales two and four are basically the same as one and three only providing a higher resolution of steps for faster notes like rolls or fast breaks. For odd time signatures this doesn't really work so easily but when you think mathematically sometimes, you can find out how to cut the length of a bar using the last step function. For example to make a 7/8 beat, you cut down the bar to 14 steps because 7/8 equals 14/16 with one step key on the TR 8 being a 16th note. Then you count the bar from one to seven with a resolution of two steps for each downbeat. Next you think about which of these downbeats should be accented and which not. Use the kick and snare for accented steps and the hats for the rest. If you want to integrate rolls use A and B on scale number four, both cut down to 14 steps, with a resolution of four steps per downbeat.
Thank you so much. I mean you literally saved me with the 12 step thing. I was so bummed that I could not get a natural swing to my patterns and I NEVER would have come to the 12 step realization by myself. Even what you just typed was extremely helpful. I really cannot thank you enough.
Good to hear and very nice feedback, thanks! :) The length of 12 steps should be a default setting when switching to these scales, like it is on almost any other drum machine. I can't understand why Roland still haven't changed that in an upgrade, like so many other things they should have added by now. They sold the TR 8 as an upgradable machine and from the very beginning they asked their customers for suggestions on how to improve it. But then they never came up with much improvement for the TR 8 but used these ideas for other machines replacing the TR 8 instead! Still no real ACB upgrade, no sub-steps, no polyrhythm function, no pattern memory extension, no combinable scales, no tempo storage setting per pattern, no pattern copy while the sequencer is running, no click, no sound auditioning in TR Rec mode, no additional sounds, no song mode, not even a simple A to B copy function or an accurate 12 step setting for triplet scales. And that's the sad story of the TR 8... I heard someone talking about another final upgrade so maybe all hope is not yet lost but what Roland has (not) done so far is very very disappointing to me.
Thats modern Roland for you. The same kind of company that releases the same sampler 3 times. XD I already knew this, but the way you word it makes me really aggravated. I wonder if complaining that falsely they led people to believe more than 1 upgraded was implied for the machine would make any headway. I think that they should, if anything, do some kind of buyback program where they fork over cash for their misleading statements, get their machine back, and recoup whatever they recoup from the machine. Damn near everyones is still in perfect condition anyway. EDIT: Where did you hear about a final upgrade? I’d like to do some research.
Sound8Vision It got mentioned in the facebook Roland Aira Crew members group but I didn't find the original text. It somehow really bothers me, that the 8S appears to be so much better than the 8 and they left us, the supporters of the original ACB idea, with a totally unfinished machine, as the example with the 16 steps on the triplet scales and still not implemented A to B copy function or no tempo assignments stored in patterns show quite clearly. I don't believe Roland couldn't have given us anything more powerful than the TR 8 we have today for the € 499,- we paid. It sounds good. But they improved ACB, they promised upgrades but they do not even provide the very next ACB quality level. Who knows if they will ever make another upgrade but even if they do, I doubt that's really going to cut it...
Franz Wilhelm Thank you! :) The original TR-808 doesn't have a swing function so using the triplet scale is crucial for producing authentic 808 groove variations based on grid instead of swing.
Christian R Forte Yes, scales one and two are best used for these patterns but you need to adjust the length of each measure to twelve steps. Using the last step function you could also do 7/8th or 5/8th or any other odd time signature but you cannot combine different scales within one pattern which is something other sequencers like the MC-505 can do.
Well, the first two scales are both triplet scales, that's what I called them. You can use both of them to program 6/8 patterns and set the tempo accordingly if you want. It would make more sense referring to them as the 12th and the 24th note scales.
Luis Conte showed me the world of africa. The first thing he said to me was two and three is the same! And so...What???! Two and three is the same with Samba.He said the first thing you´re do is the drumer, put your feet in six, put your feet in six and you feel the six under the two. Two and three is the same! so samba in six and the feel sounds like this !
Different vendor site, more math but first row is relevant here: www.elektronauts.com/t/polyrhythm-table-for-micro-timings-triplets-quintets-etc/29322/6
palaHD No, but using shuffle on a four fourth beat can sound very similar to a triplet groove sometimes. It all depends on the setting of the shuffle knob and on the resolution of notes used in the pattern. The shuffle function only manipulates all the even number steps in the pattern (2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16). These steps will be played earlier when you move the shuffle knob to the left or later when you turn the knob to the right. The triplet scales produce a different resolution of steps though, which is something that can't be achieved using shuffle. You will notice the difference when you program 16th notes on the hihats in four fourth compared to 16th triplets on scale one.
@@LousyFacelift I have looked at some other reviews, and I think part of the problem is that you recorded with the mic gain turned up, and the speaker gain turned down. Maybe trying not to bother neighbors. Still it does sound a bit clicky, will try one in person today, to see for myself it it is a deal breaker. Thanks for the quick response. Best wishes for your future fun with music.
xmrtuvgs Thanks! Just take it from me though - the keys really are too clicky for finger drumming, just like the original TR machines the TR 8 was never intended to be used like this. At least not in a performance type of way. Realtime recording is possible but there is no click either, you would have to type in a click track yourself. These machines are clearly meant to program beats, not play them.
If you have a specific question, feel free to ask and I'll try to help. And yes I know, it really is confusing and even videos posted on the Roland channel aren't helpful, that's why I made the video.
+ 1 for 'Don't let the machine tell you what to do!' Great vid. Checked this out after experimenting with the different scales last night. The rhythmic results have forced me to abandon my social life once again, for the love of the grooove...
G.Q. HOUSE That's a great comment, thanks a lot! :)
thats the best reason to abandon ones social life ive ever heard!
haven't touched my tr8 in 3 months, this made me get up and play with it again!
That's a really nice compliment. Thank you! :)
Might watch this 10 times. Thank you
Best free music educational video I’ve seen yet.
Thank you so much man! What a nice comment, really makes my day! 😃👍
LousyFacelift you’re welcome
Hi, I just wanted to say thanks very much for your tutorials! I find them really easy to understand and really helpful. I am new to drum programming and have just bought a TR-8 and you have helped me a lot!
Many thanks indeed :) Matt
+TVThemeDoctor Glad to hear the video was helpful, thanks for letting me know! :)
So well explained.
Makes sense crossing over to Elektron and fills in gaps in my knowledge, thanks.
Thanks for the nice words!
This is an awesome lesson! Thank you.
Thanks for watching!😊
thank you kindly for taking the time to explain this and for sharing! have a happy good Friday!
You too, thanks a lot and all the best! :)
Thank you, really good explanation. I will be coming back to this one. Danke!
BlatendCrude Alright, thank you! :)
Great tutorial. I'm not great with beats as it is, but your instructions helped so very much with my understanding and perspective. Pretty much played to my own out of beat (I know they are not right on) synth compositions, 30 years old and very current. I'm a hobbyist but I want to finally give them some depth and share in a more formal way with my other musician friends. I am looking at this device for purchase a little later in the future. Thanks!!
That's a very nice comment, glad to hear my videos inspired you! :) The TR 8 is a brilliant instrument, especially for realtime performance with all the classic sounds of the original TR machines. When you use the effects and tweak the sounds you can make whole tracks just with this thing by itself. I highly recommend the 7X7 upgrade so you'll get an 808, 909, 707, 727 and 606 all in one box.
Thanks,man that's exactly the drum machine I was looking for .Great for live uses and recordings Ofcourse.Finally those atr808 909 beats in my hands.
T.I.N Mateus Yes and also the 7X7 upgrade adds a lot more to the machine. You basically get a TR 808, 909, 707, 727 and 606 all in this one box.
well done. Good explanation. Thanks for making this.
Thanks for watching! :)
So helpful, very nice of you!
+voodoosmiledc Thanks a lot! :)
Key concept: RESOLUTION
Really really helpfull
Thanks!
Jose Navarrete You're welcome! Thanks for the nice comment! :)
Very interesting. Will try this out but I am thinking... why couldn't you have played it 4/4 and turned up the shuffle?wouldnt that have a similar effect?
Dom Giacalone Sometimes this can really work, yes. The answer to this is really complicated but I'll try to explain as good as I can: For the pattern in the video you'd get the same result on scale three if you place the second kick on step eight instead of seven and set the shuffle knob somewhere close to nine 'o clock. But this is only possible because this pattern doesn't use any faster notes, for example on the hihat (the tempo can be counted as one or two bars). Generally the most important thing to consider is this: Shuffle manipulates the timing of all even number steps, so they are played a little earlier or later in the grid, depending on whether you move the shuffle knob to the left (earlier) or to the right (later). All the odd number steps are not affected by shuffle. It seems to me like many people try to avoid using the triplet scales but there is no reason to do so. Sometimes the groove you want can only be achieved this way.
LousyFacelift makes sense. You even mention in the video you have the ability to program faster notes with it set up like this. I just bought this machine two days ago and your videos have been a big help getting my head wrapped around it!
Dom Giacalone About the faster notes: When using scale four you get only half a measure for one bar of sixteen steps. This means that A and B combined only give you one measure with the indicated downbeats on A1 (1) A9 (2) B1 (3) and B9 (4) but let you program 32th notes fast enough for rolls or breakbeats. Thanks for the nice comment! :)
LousyFacelift You are AMAZING at explaining TR-8 operation in simple terms. Thankz.
Good points in this vid, thx for sharing!
Thanks for the nice comment! :)
Thank you! Very helpful.
TurningUs Thanks for watching! :)
God, this is so needed, considering the elusive manual is apparently useless.... This is really gonna step up my fun with my TR8, thanks!
You're welcome! Thanks for watching!
Good Video! Well explained!! Thanks!
You're welcome! Thanks for watching! :)
Well done. Great tutorial
MrBlueHaze Thank you! :)
for non-trained musicians only, if one could edit the MIDI under the microscope, like on an old Roland MC-50 MK2, one discovers that triplets and non-triplet figures live in a timing zone where the TPQ (ticks per quarter note) is a number that is divisible by a “3” AND a “2”, so yes, Roland does make it confusing for triplet figures in the “4 beats per bar” time frame, follow the instructions in the manual and trust Roland, their system compensates but works.
So what do you think about the way Roland are explaining things in their official Aira videos? And by "explaining" I actually mean something that isn't really explaining anything, just spreading a lot of confusion, which is something they seem to enjoy doing from time to time...
ua-cam.com/video/KJrBUf_R7WI/v-deo.html
or this one -
ua-cam.com/video/GTKAIGvnouc/v-deo.html
Excellent tutorial, probably the most misunderstood part of the box
It's the one place you need some music theory tp understand
Dee Lux Yes, it's a bit confusing but so much fun when you get it right. Thanks for the nice comment! :)
Hi there, was just wandering, cause I have got the newer version TR8-S recently, if this new SUB-steps function is the solution, which of course wasnt there on the TR-8... greets - Vanni
Hi! Well, not really. The point of this video is that people tend to shy away from using a different scale other than 16 steps per (four fourths) measure even if the result they actually aim for suggests something different in some cases. Sometimes you can get to the desired result by implementing shuffle (swing) on a sixteen step scale but then again at another point in the pattern this could lead to "problems" or let's say to "different", "unwanted" or at least "unexpected" results .The solution to this is learning how to analyze and how to count through the rhythmic structures of the music you're listening to and to find the correlating scale and time signature when trying to write these beats yourself. These misunderstandings can get really frustrating. Think about sampling, when people try to chop odd time signature phrases without noticing they cannot be rearranged seamlessly in the four fourths grid they have selected in their sequencers. By not providing twelve steps for the triplet scales by default in the TR 8 and by supporting videos that show a rather questionable usage of triplet scales involving 16 steps instead of 12, even Roland themselves add to the confusion (but that's just how we know them I guess...) But to get back to your initial question with the sub steps - it's all in the resolution of steps. You have four steps per quarternote in a sixteen step scale and three steps per quarternote in a twelve step scale, so you could make up for the change in scales if the number of substeps went up to a total of twelve (three times four) steps per quarternote but I don't know if the TR 8 S provides so many substeps. Thanks for watching and leaving this interesting question in the comments!
Great tutorial
+Danny Breuer (TeknoD) Thanks Danny! :)
best tutorial ever
glitch314 Very nice of you, thanks a lot! :)
thank you. Helps a lot
Good to hear it's helpful. Thank you for the comment! :)
I'm new to the TR8, have been watching your videos and they've been really helpful. THANK YOU for these videos, as you say the support from Roland is really poor - they should hire you. Keep up the great work.
Tom H Thanks a lot for the nice words, very much appreciated! :)
these new functions 5 6 7, appear with the new or latest firmware?
because I just bought a used tr8 and it doesn't have them
Yes, they come with the firmware upgrades.
It will take me a while to get with this, but I'm gonna keep on watching this till I get it. If I wanted to program say pink Floyd money in 7/8 time then do I use scale 4 and go for last step 7 or even 14?
I think I got it I used speed 60 bpm scale 4 (bottom one) used 16 beats for pattern A and last step 12 for pattern B with a straight "4/4" drum beat.....ace! You're a genius!
@@burrencrawler It doesn't matter so much how you devide these these measures, if you make it two bars with 14 steps each or one with 16 and one with 12, both results in a 7/4 beat when the tempo is 60 bpm. Love Pink Floyd by the way and "Money" is such a cool song... Thank you so much!
super useful tutorial thanks!
You're welcome! Thanks for watching and have a great day! :)
thanks! could you only just tell me how you get these ''down beats'' lighten up so you can see the beats easyer?
+pɥrox .exe It should change automatically when you switch scales.
damn ur right :p i always though those were the accent light ups
pɥrox .exe You can set the accents yourself, they light up in red. It often makes sense to put them on the downbeats though. When keeping the accent key pressed when placing an accent step you can also set half accents btw. They light up purple.
thanks for the great vid, could i ask if there is any way to adjust the length of any given instrument on the TR08? eg. you want to use a high hat with two different lengths in your pattern.
Zacki Hamid There is a dedicated decay knob for each track but the instruments respond quite differently to the setting of this knob just like most true analog machines. Knob movements can only be recorded using external sequencers like Ableton Live or an Akai MPC, not in the TR 8 itself. If you're not using an external sequencer you would have to change the sounds live.
Great tutorial ...much appreciated :-)
+sean j Thank you Sean, my pleasure! :)
this is really great
Thanks a lot!
@@LousyFacelift anywhere there is a basic instruction for tr8 I'm really struggling!
Tony Crown They released a detailed owner's manual on their Roland support page. This wasn't yet the case when I bought mine. You can find many more videos on the TR 8 on my channel or ask me your questions and I'll try to help.
@@LousyFacelift Thanks. Yea, I can operate it, meaning looking for technique of beats. Meaning "this is how to make a trap beat" this is how to make a dub beat ect... theres a lot of crappy videos to sort through !
Tony Crown Check out this channel: ua-cam.com/channels/EAKYpdvnvZvzJ1ogK_dw5Q.html There are some good examples of different rhythms. Maybe I'll send another link that I found just recently. It's important to learn how to count. It may sound silly but sometimes it's not easy trying to count through the downbeats of a track even when it's the usual four fourths pattern. For example "In the Air Tonight" by Phil Collins throws me off all the time because it's programmed in such a special kind of way. And it gets more complicated when dealing with different time signatures, so it needs practice to find out how these rhythms translate over to a drum machine.
Is it possible to use the "Last Step" feature and play triplets in 5/4, 6/4, etc? Great tutorial on the machine. I think sometimes the confusion people experience is due to the fact that triplets do not exist in musical notation (they have to be written as an aside); they are a kind of unicorn that has no effect on the time signature itself. So, I can play a triplet (crotchet triplets, 8th triplets or 16th triplets) in any time signature (3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 11/8, etc etc), because it is a division of a note value, not the time. Machines have a hard time (LOL) getting at this, because it is a very human feel. Thanks again for getting at the tech side of this stuff.
Hi! Yes, it is absolutely possible to use a last step setting of twelve and program triplets on any scale you want. You could even use only nine steps without any problems when the TR 8 is not MIDI synced to any other machine. If it is though, choosing the right scale is really important to find the matching tempo for all devices used in your MIDI setup.
is it possible to use the four step scale for kicks and triplet scale for hats or whatever, and keep the BPM aligned to the quarter notes? Does that makes sense? I'm thinking of investing in a TR8, but I need something flexible enough for odd times and midi syncing. thanks for your videos, really helpful stuff.
S BRAND
Hi! No you can't program different last step settings or different time signatures for individual instrument tracks. It's all really basic sequencing like on the originals. You would have to use a more flexible host sequencer that triggers the sounds of the TR 8.
+LousyFacelift thanks buddy. I love the tr8 sounds and the interface is lovely, feels like a mixing board/dub thing. but the limitations might be too, uh, limiting for me. thanks for your help.
S BRAND
No problem! :)
4/4 = 1e&a 2e&a
3/4 = 1&a 2&a
Just say the above out loud and whatever your beat sounds closes to, thats the time you are in.
I like to always keep mine on 4/4 using all 16 steps and just use the swing to kick the grove into a 3/4 feel. This way when you put a melody over it you still have the standard 4/4 timing.
Always sticking to 4/4 and applying swing doesn't work for anything though. As an example listen to "The Machine In The Ghost" by Apollo 440 and try to replicate that beat using 4/4 and swing - It doesn't work! And why would you want to avoid the correct scale and use swing on 4/4 instead?
@@LousyFacelift I'm not trying to replicate someone else's song that has a specific song signature, if you are remaking someones song in a certain key and time sig, then yeah, use that key and time sig.
I use 4/4 in my songs to get my drums sounding 3/4. The tr-8, says scale, but its confusing bc its a scale of time. Not scale as in key signature. Swing is time shifting, you swing it forward or you swing it back, time shifting in music is 2/4 3/4 3/4, ect. I write all my songs in 4/4, so if I need my drums to sound 3/4 I don't want to rewrite the whole melody, it won't work. That's why I use swing to shift the time of my drums.
NateSanti Yes, that's your choice of course and sometimes I do that, too. I just wanted to clarify that using swing on 16 steps doesn't lead to the same result as using a triplet scale with twelve steps except for a few examples (like "Clubbed To Death" from the Matrix soundtrack). Swing only affects the position of all the even number steps, moving them to the left or to the right in the grid. Odd number steps are not shifted in any way. When using a positive swing value (higher than 50%) it creates a triplet feel at around 66% when the second sixteenth falls in the same place as compared to the second step in scale one (or step three in scale two) on the TR 8. The problem is the position of step number three in scale one which cannot be reached this way.
@@LousyFacelift true, thats why if you have a song in 3/4 then use a 3/4 time sig lol, my comment was getting the groove to do what I want it to do, like your example in the video in my 4/4 song. You are talking about a whole song, in which case, YES use the correct time sig, I am talking about getting just my kick to go dum di duh in a a dum da di duh song, without shifting the whole song to 3/4.
In the end we are talking about two different things that can achieve the same result if applied in a limited way, getting the kick to hit a certain way. But, yes I agree this will not work on everything, it's not suppose too.
Great explanation of 3/3 timing in light of 4/4 world. A little confused and it looks like Roland is not a friend to 3/3 timers by this but great explanation. Thanks!!! Subbed.
There's no such thing as "3/3" timing.... there are no such thing as "third" notes. Triplet timing is normally expressed as "6/8", or 6 eighth notes per bar.
How do you have it so that the only time an instrument's volume fader LED is on only when that instrument is being used?
John Music I muted all the parts that I didn't use for this demo. Press INST PLAY and pad 16 (MUTE). Here you can deactivate individual tracks by pressing the corresponding step key or the instrument key beneath the fader. Press pad 16 again to get back to instrument play mode.
Thank you bro!
Very helpful, thanks...
Thank you!
Hey LF , I was wondering if you know more about the hidden menus on the TR8 & how I can access them? and what they are, eg. lighting modes (that are the least flashy & annoying of all)and other stuff? Your video rocked, I had to watch it a couple of times but I took all in now
Thanks a lot! Yes, I made two videos on the boot mode settings in the TR 8. This is the first one:
ua-cam.com/video/V1wlJe82VmI/v-deo.html
and then there is the second one with the same title only named part 2. When I made these vides some of these functions were indeed "secret" but Roland updated their online manuals so everything should now be documented on their website. I haven't covered their latest additions in a video though. There is now also a mode that can be used to trigger sounds of an external sampler like the SP-404 (A or SX) with one of the instrument parts and also a performance function that works like a step repeat for any number of steps that can be selected while playing back a pattern. This can be accessed in the latest firmware by holding down TR REC and INST PLAY simultaneously and then holding down the step keys you wish to use in between performance. If only one step key is held, you'll get a nice little stutter effect. Quite fun actually...
is possible to assign different scale to different instrument? for example if i want that my kick works i 3/4 and my snare in 5/4 is possible to do it?
No, unfortunately. Last step assignments and scales are global in the pattern, no individual track lengths. Makes it easier but more restricted in a way.
I know that the arturia drumbrute can does it, but obviously §( and fortunately in a way) it's not the same sound
howeer thanks for answer! keep groovin
Giorgio Roberto Sciattella Yes, the sequencer in the Drumbrute is more flexible than the TR 8. Soundwise I don't like it though.
Giorgio Roberto Sciattella My pleasure, thanks for the comment! :)
Hi
How do you get slave mode?
Just by turn off the 6th light?
Lagaleriedare In most cases you can simply plug the MIDI Out of the master device into the MIDI In of the TR 8, hit play on the master and the TR 8 will be synched. If this doesn't work please watch my video on the boot mode functions and hidden features and see if that helps finding the setting that's best for you. Step key number 6 is used when you want the TR 8 to ignore start/stop messages but still listen to the tempo of an external unit, so that you can start the other machine without it and at some point later press play on the TR 8 and have it play along in the same tempo.
"tell u the machine" great job!
BUNKER Very nice of you, thanks for watching! :)
i do not own an Tr but Damn thiis is useful..
That's great, thank you! :)
This is great. After owning my tr-8 for over a year, it's strange to find 'new' hidden features that I have never seen in documentation. If it is in a manual somewhere, it surely hasn't been presented very clearly.
DJSILKWOLF Yes, when the TR 8 was released there were quite many functions not explained in the manual. 16 steps instead of 12 in scales one and two is an extremely confusing default setting and Roland even added on to that confusion by supporting at least one totally misleading video under the AIRA name, in which someone talks about using these scales with 16 steps for trap style hihats. They don't exactly help to make their customers understand the way things work in the TR 8... Thanks for the nice comment! 😀👍
love this guy!.... lol thanks for all your effort. Danke zier.... Hey one thing.... If your last step was #15 instead of #12 in 3:4 scale mode, the BPM would still read correctly tho right....??
aliasghar907 That' s a very interesting question, actually I don't think so. If you tried to synch the TR 8, last step set to 15 to another machine set to twelve steps per bar, I assume the TR 8 would reach step 13 in bar one at the same time the other machine reaches step one in bar two. It would still be cool to use a 15 step setting and adjust the tempo though because that would give you a resolution of five steps per quarter note in a 3/4 measure. That could lead to very interesting results. Thanks a lot for watching and leaving a great comment!
Really helpfull!
frenkbuster Good to hear, thank you! :)
DO you know of any good resources online to learn about drum machine scales more in depth? This REALLY helped me. Thank you.
I just subscribed to a channel called "Sound Art Elevation". There you can find some great examples on how to program patterns for many different genres. I haven't watched all these vids myself yet, so I don't know how the subject of scales is covered there. I think the most important part is learning how to count these different time signatures. In the TR 8 you have these highlighted step keys as a good indication where the downbeats are, so that basically tells you how to count these beats. Just keep in mind that scales two and four are basically the same as one and three only providing a higher resolution of steps for faster notes like rolls or fast breaks. For odd time signatures this doesn't really work so easily but when you think mathematically sometimes, you can find out how to cut the length of a bar using the last step function. For example to make a 7/8 beat, you cut down the bar to 14 steps because 7/8 equals 14/16 with one step key on the TR 8 being a 16th note. Then you count the bar from one to seven with a resolution of two steps for each downbeat. Next you think about which of these downbeats should be accented and which not. Use the kick and snare for accented steps and the hats for the rest. If you want to integrate rolls use A and B on scale number four, both cut down to 14 steps, with a resolution of four steps per downbeat.
Thank you so much. I mean you literally saved me with the 12 step thing. I was so bummed that I could not get a natural swing to my patterns and I NEVER would have come to the 12 step realization by myself.
Even what you just typed was extremely helpful.
I really cannot thank you enough.
Good to hear and very nice feedback, thanks! :) The length of 12 steps should be a default setting when switching to these scales, like it is on almost any other drum machine. I can't understand why Roland still haven't changed that in an upgrade, like so many other things they should have added by now. They sold the TR 8 as an upgradable machine and from the very beginning they asked their customers for suggestions on how to improve it. But then they never came up with much improvement for the TR 8 but used these ideas for other machines replacing the TR 8 instead! Still no real ACB upgrade, no sub-steps, no polyrhythm function, no pattern memory extension, no combinable scales, no tempo storage setting per pattern, no pattern copy while the sequencer is running, no click, no sound auditioning in TR Rec mode, no additional sounds, no song mode, not even a simple A to B copy function or an accurate 12 step setting for triplet scales. And that's the sad story of the TR 8... I heard someone talking about another final upgrade so maybe all hope is not yet lost but what Roland has (not) done so far is very very disappointing to me.
Thats modern Roland for you. The same kind of company that releases the same sampler 3 times. XD
I already knew this, but the way you word it makes me really aggravated. I wonder if complaining that falsely they led people to believe more than 1 upgraded was implied for the machine would make any headway.
I think that they should, if anything, do some kind of buyback program where they fork over cash for their misleading statements, get their machine back, and recoup whatever they recoup from the machine. Damn near everyones is still in perfect condition anyway.
EDIT: Where did you hear about a final upgrade? I’d like to do some research.
Sound8Vision It got mentioned in the facebook Roland Aira Crew members group but I didn't find the original text. It somehow really bothers me, that the 8S appears to be so much better than the 8 and they left us, the supporters of the original ACB idea, with a totally unfinished machine, as the example with the 16 steps on the triplet scales and still not implemented A to B copy function or no tempo assignments stored in patterns show quite clearly. I don't believe Roland couldn't have given us anything more powerful than the TR 8 we have today for the € 499,- we paid. It sounds good. But they improved ACB, they promised upgrades but they do not even provide the very next ACB quality level. Who knows if they will ever make another upgrade but even if they do, I doubt that's really going to cut it...
Thanks man 👍🏻
My pleasure. Thanks for the nice response! :)
good work on a much unknown erea!
Franz Wilhelm Thank you! :) The original TR-808 doesn't have a swing function so using the triplet scale is crucial for producing authentic 808 groove variations based on grid instead of swing.
Thank u so Much!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jefferson Weber You're welcome! Thanks for watching! :)
Can the tr8 do 3/4 time based patterns
Christian R Forte Yes, scales one and two are best used for these patterns but you need to adjust the length of each measure to twelve steps. Using the last step function you could also do 7/8th or 5/8th or any other odd time signature but you cannot combine different scales within one pattern which is something other sequencers like the MC-505 can do.
LousyFacelift awesome thank you!!
good info
Nick M Thank you for the nice comment! :)
Are you sure scale 1 isn’t 6/8? You had the BPM way up over 150
Well, the first two scales are both triplet scales, that's what I called them. You can use both of them to program 6/8 patterns and set the tempo accordingly if you want. It would make more sense referring to them as the 12th and the 24th note scales.
Luis Conte showed me the world of africa. The first thing he said to me was two and three is the same! And so...What???!
Two and three is the same with Samba.He said the first thing you´re do is the drumer, put your feet in six, put your feet in six and you feel the six under the two. Two and three is the same! so samba in six and the feel sounds like this !
bester mann!
Different vendor site, more math but first row is relevant here: www.elektronauts.com/t/polyrhythm-table-for-micro-timings-triplets-quintets-etc/29322/6
Wanted to learn about beat making but Half way through and and you’ve done so far is tell me problems …
So, do you have any specific questions on beat making?
Isn't it just shuffle ?
palaHD No, but using shuffle on a four fourth beat can sound very similar to a triplet groove sometimes. It all depends on the setting of the shuffle knob and on the resolution of notes used in the pattern. The shuffle function only manipulates all the even number steps in the pattern (2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16). These steps will be played earlier when you move the shuffle knob to the left or later when you turn the knob to the right. The triplet scales produce a different resolution of steps though, which is something that can't be achieved using shuffle. You will notice the difference when you program 16th notes on the hihats in four fourth compared to 16th triplets on scale one.
Please show how to make hardcore or hardstyle on it>
The clicking sound of the buttons is to loud.
For finger drumming it's too loud, yes.
@@LousyFacelift I have looked at some other reviews, and I think part of the problem is that you recorded with the mic gain turned up, and the speaker gain turned down. Maybe trying not to bother neighbors.
Still it does sound a bit clicky, will try one in person today, to see for myself it it is a deal breaker.
Thanks for the quick response.
Best wishes for your future fun with music.
xmrtuvgs Thanks! Just take it from me though - the keys really are too clicky for finger drumming, just like the original TR machines the TR 8 was never intended to be used like this. At least not in a performance type of way. Realtime recording is possible but there is no click either, you would have to type in a click track yourself. These machines are clearly meant to program beats, not play them.
fucking confusing!?!?
It gets easier when you watch it again and again.... ;)
If you have a specific question, feel free to ask and I'll try to help. And yes I know, it really is confusing and even videos posted on the Roland channel aren't helpful, that's why I made the video.
Very helpful, thank you so much
You're welcome, thanks for the nice comment!
gruuvly helpful! Thanks
Alessandro Montanaro :D hahaha! That's good to hear, thank you!
Thanks! Really helpful
DshanYoYoYo Thanks for the nice feedback! :)