People go to hell not because of pride and sin, but because of unbelief. They wont agree with God, when He tells them they are depraved and hostile to Him. They wont trust God to change them to be whatever He wants them to be. In summary they want self rule and hell is for self rulers. Heaven is all about Gods will and Gods glory.
God is not sending anyone to any hell! Thats just nonsense! Go read up on the early Greek speaking church responsible for translating the Greek manuscripts! They never believed in the current churches rubbish, the pagans did!
SwordofManticorE Not at all. Paul is simply saying that the faithlessness of man has no effect on the faithfulness of God. Even though many will not believe, God is faithful in that He still extends chance after chance to them. He will never stop until the last day, when we will all face judgement based on whether we placed our faith in Christ or in ourselves.
SwordofManticorE You sound like a Calvinist that says there is no human free will. There is a choice made by man as to whether or not they will believe. To say God forces people to be saved is to say that God chooses a select few to be saved. To say that God chooses a select few to be saved is to say that He damns most to hell. To say that He damns most to hell is to say that He didn't die for all sin. To say that He didn't die for all is to contradict 1 John 2:2. To say He damns most to hell is to say He doesn't want everyone to be saved. To say He doesn't want everyone to be saved is to contradict 2 Peter 3:9. To say God forces a select few to be saved is to say Jesus isn't omnipotent when He called the rich young ruler. To say there is no human free will is to says God is the cause of sin. To say God is the cause of sin is to contradict James 1. There are way too many fallacies with the idea of there being no human free will.
it's 2019 now. and this is the video, the one video, that finally tipped the wobbling domino of my faith at 20 years old and sent alllll the rest of the dominoes crashing down over the years...until all I had left were pieces, and a deep, cold, aching despair in my soul. cos here I was, a good trophy-earning AWANA bible study girl, FINALLY looking honestly at all the inconvenient ugly parts of the Bible I'd always ignored or glossed over, and searching for answers beyond the standard "His-ways-are-not-our-ways" dismissal. and here was this amazing pastor, Francis freakin' CHAN, talking so earnestly and honestly, and bringing up all the things I was struggling with, and I remember literally nodding while I watched and thinking "okay, here it comes! he's gonna say something I never thought of before and I'll finally get what I need to figure this out!" ...and then in seconds, that spark of hope turned into despair. he went right back to the same line of reasoning. he didn't have anything better. he shrugged with a pained expression and justified all the terrible stuff with, "maybe that seems wrong to us because God's sense of justice is so much more evolved and higher than ours." like he was RESIGNING himself to following a God with that kind of character. and I remember crying myself to sleep that night and thinking, and I STILL think to this day: "...THAT'S what a more evolved sense of justice looks like? that's what GOD's morality really looks like?? because if that's really true, and if He really did command all the terrible things I'm reading...I have been worshiping an abusive monster this whole time and never knew it. and there's no way around it. no excuse. there's nothing. my relationship with Him is worthless." what kind of faith do we really have, if the one argument we fall back on when we're pressed too hard is "we can't afford to get it wrong"?? because that statement heavily implies that the whole foundation of what you believe is ultimately rooted in fear. not love. FEAR. and I was taught that perfect love CASTS OUT fear!! I was taught that the greatest of these is love! I was taught that the whole point of EVERYTHING God did and does for us is love! I was taught that when we know the character of Jesus, we know the character of the Father! so what could I do?? what could I do when the groaning of my conscience screamed that what I was reading was vile and wrong and NOT something a just, loving Creator would do? what could I do when the God I was raised to believe in couldn't be reconciled with the God I saw in half the Bible? what could I do when I looked for Jesus in all those terrible, ugly passages, and couldn't find Him anywhere? what could I do, when I was taught the Bible is 100% true and infallible...and then that Bible showed me a God that I was now INCAPABLE of loving or obeying? what can you do, when the slow fear creeps over you that maybe you hold your fellow human beings to a better standard of morality than you hold your own God? that this supposedly perfect, just, loving Creator could do any terrible, cruel, disgusting thing He felt like doing, and you could just excuse it with "His ways are not our ways and He's all-powerful anyway so what can ya do lol" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ what does that SAY about Him, about His character? seriously, what does your theology say about the kind of God you serve?? Mr. Francis Chan, I still have a lot of respect for you...but if your Heavenly Father walked into my preschool classroom one day, would I call Child Protective Services on him? cos it sure sounds like I would. and that's not just coming from arrogance, that comes from knowing what a loving parent looks like. after 8 years, I'm finally reaching the light at the end of the tunnel and finding some peace again. though idk if peace is the right word. I am a certified "doubting thomas" now, who's embraced the audacity to question and scrutinize my own Creator. I don't have any of the certainty I had before, I don't have all my theological ducks in a nice straight row anymore, I don't view the Bible quite the way I used to anymore...and all of that is GOOD. my faith has never been more authentic or urgent than it is now, and all the defensiveness I used to have when people criticized it is gone...because my God is good, Jesus is good, and He doesn't need me to defend Him or make excuses for Him. He doesn't need me to prove any skeptics wrong, or color inside the lines when my questions are messy and theologically inconvenient. He just wants me to come back home to Him, and love Him through my doubts. cos He's my Father. and He's a GOOD Father.
hey great that you're so honest and thats a symptom of God at work in us to help us to be truly honest. but for anyone struggling with these issues Chan didn't just shrug and say "I don't know" he said, we are pieces of clay and we Submit to our creator who doesn't just have the capacity to love but is love. without God we wouldn't have any morality to judge anything let alone Him and we wouldn't have anything at all. even if we were just weird 1 dimensional creatures with a tiny capacity to experience life.. at least we would be alive. we would have to be eternally grateful for existence even if that existence was severely diminished compared to what we have now. I didn't plan on going on but it's good that FC has us all thinking... Another thing I've noticed about faith (in myself and others) is that theres a spiritual blindness. If we had the ability to really just think about an issue, then often we can get a revelation that we didn't even really contemplate before. when we think about eternity I dont' think we really get it but when we keep thinking about it we get a glimpse of it and it's too huge so we can back away from the reality that is too much for us. I think God's anger and indignation can also be like that. Do we even realise how holy God is and how offensive it is to sin against Him? no we don't.
@@pilgrimfolk God sent Christ to be the reconciliation for the world back to God. 2 Cor 5:19. Check also Rom 11:32. God in his wisdom held all men in futility so that all may receive his mercy. It's not correct understanding of God's character to think he got offended. He looked at sin and had mercy and grace for us. Not offense. He looked at sinful humanity and loved us, reason Christ became. Jn 3:16 We can know God's character and full intentions as he has openly revealed himself in Christ. We don't have to sit on the fence! Paul told the brethren in Ephesus Acts 20:27 that he had taught them the whole purpose and plan of God.... We know these these things in the revelation of Christ. Let us study listen and learn of God through the perfect representation and image of himself - Christ!
"I cannot believe that God wants punishment to go on interminably any more than does a loving parent. The entire purpose of loving punishment is to teach, and it lasts only as long as is needed for the lesson. And the lesson is always love." -- Madeleine L'Engle, author
Eventually all will be reconciled to the Father via Jesus Christ and how the Victorious Gospel will eventually redeem all things that went down from Adam and Satan!
Everytime I think about how God almighty gave his only son to die on the cross for us wicked, undeserving people, I feel like crying. Thank you Lord Jesus 😔🙏☺
I slandered this man because I thought he was fraudulent, and I was wrong about him. you'll probably never read this, but I'm truly sorry pastor Chan. Truly sorry.
RE : '' we should all question things '' This blew me away , because if there's one thing religious people don't do , it's questioning everything , especially when it comes to their beliefs , they simply reason throughout the premise a god exists. Have you ever , objectively questioned yourself , WHY you believe that what you believe ?
ni stan of course they will believe by then but it will be too late. Their chance to exhibit their belief while alive on earth will be gone. Only then do they have the opportunity to have their names written in the book of life. That chance to have your name written in the book of life is ONLY available here on earth, now, not after all is revealed. Come on. Everybody in hell will believe then but just because they do and don't want to willfully be there doesn't mean they are allowed to leave. It's simple. Either you have your name in the book of life or you don't. If you don't you go to hell, forever. And your only chance you are given to have your name written in the book of life is here on earth before you die. Not after. Talk about coming up with your own gospel. Basically you have said that if you don't accept Jesus Christ as Savior now on earth before you die that you will have a second chance in the spiritual realm before the second death. So so twisted. Such lie from Satan!
Falconjj repent y friend.... repent and ask for forgiveness. Repent from the bottom of your heart. Confess each episode in details to God. How it happened, how you felt. And ask for forgiveness. He will forgive you and you will seek for the Holy Spirit. When your life is filled by the Holy Spirit you will see the fruits of the Holy Spitting start to be real in your life... self-control, patience.... If you confess and repent. He will forgive you. Pray in repentance each very time you have an episode of anger and He will work on you. Jesus forgives, but He also says Go and sin no more... get into a journey to know the Holy Spirit! We pray for you!
Great message. When I feel my faith slipping, or am unable to understand I go outside and look up. The sun, the stars the planets and the endless space were all created by God. He is smarter than us by a long shot. Imagine trying to explain electricity to your pets. They could never understand. They just don't have the capacity to.
Great video. I want to read that book. Yet, if there was no Hell, I would still love Him, fear Him, honour Him and delight in His beauty and truth. I would still care more about Him and what He says than about the world or my own desires alone. I would still learn and speak about Him to those who don´t know Him, and I would still choose Him knowing the cost it took Jesus and the consecuences it is taking me. Cause God it´s worth it all. Without Hell or with it.
Or perhaps a better statement "have you ever thought that maybe creators sense of love and mercy is more developed than yours"? Especially since the bible says mercy triumphs over judgement. The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in love.
Dubem but he isn’t being honest. He starts out by saying God spoke with him, telling him that he is like clay. My greatest wish is that religious people would JUST BE HONEST that they have never heard any voices speak to them. The Bible is not remarkable in any way. The language provides no profound thoughts that weren’t already in existence at the time it was written. Every revelation is always an “Ah Ha” in RETROSPECT. Never anything that provides valuable substance to change the world in a positive way.
Don Harris I've heard "words" in my being. And I was told to pray for things happening in real time I had no way of knowing. I have not published these statements for the public nor would I. But I know people do talk honestly when they say they have heard.
Read lamentations 3:31-33...... " FOR NO ONE IS CAST OFF BY THE LORD FOREVER, though he brings grief.HE WILL SHOW COMPASSION. so great is his unfalling love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone"....(and yes that's from the bible)..booyah..to u eternal hell believers!!!..I can quote more too
He says gahenna in the greek which was an actual burning dump outside jerusalem where the people would go to sacrifice their children to god ... and he describes it as a place of torment and gnashing of teeth..youre blind my friend.. god is good.. only good.. his ways are truly better.. do your own research stop being shrouded by fear
Quit parsing out ; its not a cafeteria rev 20- 21...lake of fire. Jesus warned more about hell than anything not wishing we d go there.. Reference: Watchman Bagpipes..avoid heretics! Get smart!
it was a literal reference to a burning garbage dump. Literal fire 24/7. That's why He cited it so you d know there is punishment by fire next time..not flood over cosmos. You 're the one who is adding things not in that scripture. It's not about babies, sport.
It's not just love either He has righteous anger and is being patient. How do you twist "God chastens His own"? That is punishment. Read the whole book He s the same yesterday today and tomorrow.wrath included.
@@jackiepowell7513 you are "assuming" Jesus used Gehenna as a reference to "eternal punishment". Nothing in His words show that He was referring to "Hell". Typical christiandom spiritualizing the literal text.
Just read the scriptures and BELIEVE IT... Stop denying things that are hard for you to handle, Stop creating doctrines to make things more acceptable to the thinking of Men. Faith is what men neeed in God. His will be done.. And it SHALL.
"His will be done.. And it SHALL" - AdstarAPAD According to scripture, it is Gods WILL that ALL men are to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, Do you still believe Gods WILL will be done? You should! "3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."1Tim 2:4
You do not quote a verse in isolation and disregard all other scriptures. The scriptures you quote are simply saying that Gods will is to accept all men to be repent and be saved... BUT the scriptures reveal that NOT all men will accept the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus Not all will believe Him, You cannot create some universal doctrine of demons in one verse isolated and misinterpreted.
AdstarAPAD You are now contradicting yourself! You stated: "His will be done.. And it SHALL" - AdstarAPAD "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who WILL HAVE *ALL MEN* to be *SAVED* and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, *WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL*, to be *testified* in due time" (1 Tim 2:3-6). 1 John 4:14 tells us that the Father sent the Son to be Savior of the *WORLD*! John 3:35 tells us that the Father has given *ALL* into Jesus’ hands. "*THIS IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER* Who sent Me, that of *ALL* He has given Me, I should lose *NOTHING*, but raise it up at the last day." (John 6:39) CAN YOU CONNECT THE DOTS? OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MANS WILL > GODS WILL?
Nope. I am saying Gods will shall be done i agree that His will if for men to avoid sin but. We know that men sin. Therefore His will in this is His desire not His will as in He has caused it to be. Gods will that all men repent and come to the salvation of Jesus is His desire for all men but he does not enforce it. But Gods will as revealed in the Bible about casting those not written in the Lambs book of life into the Lake of Fire is a definite prophesised outcome. It SHALL be done. Therefore universalism is a lie a false doctrine because it denies the clear revelation in scripture of what will occur.
AdstarAPAD Your twisting scripture. It says, "GOD WILLS ALL MEN BE SAVED', NOT AVOID SIN! i BELIEVED IN HELL FOR OVER 20 YEARS UNTIL I DISCOVERED IT WAS A COMPLETE LIE! You have been deceived into thinking that God has left the fate of man up to man, which is completely false. In order for the medieval church to pull this deception off, they had to make a few changes to scripture. For example, they changed the word "Drag" to "draw" in John 6:44 John 6:44 (NIV) 44 "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAGS (Helko) them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up" Look it up! The Greek word is helkó (ST 1670) Definition: DRAG It is the same word used to describe the Apostles pulling up the net full of fish, and Paul being dragged off to jail. It would be too difficult to frighten and control people with a mythical hell, or perpetrate a myth of mans free will being capable of overriding Gods Will, if God is DRAGGING people to Salvation! Also, For the first 500 years of Christs Church, Believers taught that Jesus saves ALL and that the Lake of Fire and Brimstone was for purification, and that ALL were going to be salted with this fire! When you read about Fire, read *ALL* of it! Here is your unquenchable fire in Mark 9:46: [46]c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’d 49 *EVERYONE* will be salted with *FIRE*. The Bible says that this fire will will purify us! "If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" I HAVE NEVER HEARD THE CHURCH SAYING THAT *EVERYONE* WILL BE SALTED AND PURIFIED IN THIS UNQUENCHABLE FIRE! HAVE YOU?
I love the irony of all the posts that condemn the doctrine of hell, because they all have to admit one thing: "Hell is an EVIL belief, and that makes God IMMORAL!" Evil and immoral? Based on what standard of good and morality? Yours?? The fact is, this argument against hell is precisely the justification for its existence. It is something that we detest so heavily, that we are willing to avoid even thinking about it at all costs, as it exists as a demonstration of how far God will go to illustrate our hatred and avoidance of him. He creates hell and asks the simple question, "Would you rather be with me, or face an existence without me? I am love, light, and goodness, and hell is without any of those things". In the end, millions will choose hell over God. It's not at all inconceivable if you understand the type of malice people associate with Christ.
One reason not to believe in the traditional idea of eternal hell is the bible itself. God said if you sin you will die, but he didn't say if you sin you will be tortured for eternity. God also created a system of justice in the old testament and unlike pagan culture and the pagan influenced church the system did not include lengthy prison times and torture. people believe torture is wrong largely because that is the impression we get about it from the bible.
Oneskeptical Guy, I can't give you an exact number, but it may be mentioned several times in the OT in the Psalms as Sheol, or one of it's translations, which is a Hebrew word meaning "the pit" or "grave" or "the place of the dead". Psalm 16:10 "For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, or let your Holy One see corruption" Psalm 30:3 "O Lord, You have brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit." Psalm 88 has a few references as well. I didn't mention several in between those and there are more. Also, it's mentioned in other OT books like Isaiah, where in verse 14:15 it says " Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.". There are more references like that throughout the OT. Also, Job mentions it too. Job 24:19 "Drought and heat consume the snow waters, So does Sheol those who have sinned.", and Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up." There's a lot more than that too. Just Google it. I'm not sure which OT you've been reading. Sheol sounds a lot like Hell to me.
You cite, Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up." Yeah, when you die, you dont come back alive to earth! The pit? Yeah, the grave is really just a pit! No flames, no demons pulling your flesh apart, no devil with a pitch fork! Just a pit for your coffin! According to Ecc 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead (Sheol), where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" That's not hell is it! The King James used to have the word hell for Sheol in the OT, but the modern bible corrected it, and removed the word and concept of hell from our OT translations! The NIV,NASB,ESV,ect... No hell mentioned anywhere in the OT! And no where in the NT, once you study it carefully!
What about the Lake of Fire in Revelation? Or the place where Jesus talks about the rich man being tormented in? What about Mark 9:43-48 which cites Isaiah 66:24. Does "Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." sound the same as something you'd find in a cemetery? I haven't heard of immortal worms and fire 6 feet under.
There is no eternal, conscious torment in some sort of "hell." Here are verses showing the wicked will be destroyed and will not "be" anymore: "For yet a little while, and *_the wicked shall not be:_* yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10). "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that *_they shall be destroyed for ever"_* (Psalms 92:7). "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but *_destruction_* shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29). "As the whirlwind passeth, *_so is the wicked no more:_* but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25). "Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet *_he shall perish for ever_* like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7). Even Satan will be destroyed: "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; *_therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee._* All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and *_never shalt thou be any more"_* (Ezekiel 28:17-19). The apostle Paul wrote, "For *_the wages of sin is death;_* but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). Yes, the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in some sort of burning hellfire. We either perish through death, or we receive the gift of eternal life: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not *_perish,_* but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Those are the two alternatives; we perish in death, or else we receive the gift of eternal life. You either receive eternal life as a gift from God, or you perish: you cease to exist because you haven't received eternal life. ************************* Salvation is not about *_where_* you'll spend eternity. You won't even *_have_* an eternity - of any sort, anywhere - unless God chooses to give you the gift of eternal life!!! Otherwise, you'll perish in death. The "immortal soul" is a lie passed down from pagan religion. *_If we were immortal, God would not need to give us eternal life._* And remember, God put the first couple out of the Garden so they would NOT eat of the tree of life and so live forever. Apparently they did not have immortality. We still DO NOT have immortality. Take away the "immortal soul" error and there is no longer need to "explain" where the immortal soul spends eternity! ************************* For anyone reading this who is undecided about the meaning of "hell" I recommend using a Bible search tool to find all the New Testament uses of "hell" and see what Greek word "hell" was translated from. You'll discover that "hell" in the KJV NT appears 23 times and was translated from three different original Greek words, ( _geenna, hades_ and _tartaroo_ ) each of which has a different meaning! That's where a lot of today's confusion begins! Look into it! You'll find that later versions of the Bible actually corrected some of the KJV errors in this regard, for example, correctly translating the Greek _hades_ as the "grave" instead of "hell." Young's Literal Translation (YLT) does not even use the word "hell". It translates the Greek _hades_ as "grave," and translates the Greek _geena_ as "gehenna." The Greek _geena_ referred to the dump just southeast of Jerusalem, where fire and maggots destroyed city's refuse. Jesus likened the ultimate fate of the wicked to being thrown into Jerusalem's dump, into "gehenna fire," for destruction. ps: check my YT channel for a video _Hell and the Immortal Soul_ explaining this in detail
Jesus did not come to make bad people good, but Jesus came to make dead people live. Jesus went through hell so we don't have to go hell. How much more does the Lord need to do to save us? God cannot force us to be in His presence.
We have followed the progress of the fruit Francis and Lisa Chan has produced in his ministry as we have watched the ministry of many others in our 50 yrs of service to the Kingdom. We have prayed for the restoration of the first works in the church of Christ, no not the divided denominations or some theologian's dream or man's eloquence and wisdom but God's own Powerful Spirit.
Hell is still real no matter what you believe. And God will send people there no matter what you think that he would never do that. But he can and he will.
evangelicals always with their "no matter what you believe" - LOOK! there's still no armageddon, no antichrist and they've been saying that for years. Fucking bullshit motherfuckers.
Two distinct covenants...the Bible can be wielded “by the letter” as a ministry of death and condemnation or “by the Spirit” as a ministry of Life (2 Cor 3:6-11). The Lake of Fire if interpreted through Malachi by the Spirit could be understood as a Refiner’s Fire (Mal 3:2)...for our God is a Consuming Fire (Heb 12:29). Likewise, death and hell are consumed in that Fire (Rev 20:14). For behold, I hold the keys to death and hell (Rev 1:18)! God’s Lovingkindness endures forever (Ps 136)! God is gentle, patient, and kind (Gal 5:22). The doctrine of Eternal Torment is not at all in alignment with the fruit of the Spirit, of God’s Kind and Loving Nature. So too Jesus clearly rebuked the sons of thunder for suggesting calling down fire upon those who had rejected him, saying, “You know not what spirit you are of. For the son of man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them” (Luke 9:55-56)! And while annihilation obviously is a step in the right direction towards God’s Love and Mercy, it too fails to take into full consideration “the mystery of God’s will revealed” in His plan of many ages, which is “the summing up of ALL THINGS in Christ” (Eph 1:10). In Adam all die, in Christ all shall be made alive (Rom 5:18). For Jesus is the “propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for those of THE WHOLE WORLD” (1 John 2:2). What Jesus did, was done for all. Such is the difference between the type and shadow of the Passover Lamb and that of the Day of Atonement Scapegoat, carrying away the sins of the entire nation. Like with the Emancipation Proclamation, LEGALLY all slaves in the Confederate slaveholding states were set free. But the following day folks were still in bondage. So too with the cross. Thus God’s Royal Priesthood has a mission to see all in bondage set free. For this is God’s will that “all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4). Faith is defined as the substance of things HOPED FOR (Heb 11:1). Thus, unless our hearts wish to anchor hope in eternal torment or annihilation for others, then by definition these doctrines are NOT statements of faith. All the while, we’ve already been instructed what God desires (1 Tim 2:4). When reading the Bible, we can wear LENSES OF CONDEMNATION or we can wear LENSES OF LOVE. Two distinct covenants...”for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives Life.” Thus He has “made us ministers of a NEW COVENANT, not of the letter, but of the Spirit” (2 Cor 3:6)! Thus we must be careful how we read and wield the Word!
I have total empathy for what you are saying. I even covered many of these topics when I led bible study for Campus Crusade for Christ in college as an evangelical Christian. But when I really look at what the bible has to say about supporting slavery, endorsing genocide, views on women, eternal damnation, stoning homosexuals to death etc, I find it morally lacking. To me it is so glaring no amount of faith can overcome my inner moral compass that rails against the god of the bible.
4:05 - Yes, Francis Chan, I have considered that God's sense of justice is more developed than mine. .... Which really makes the case for eternal torment seem even more lacking. 7:33 - Convenient where he left off the part about the lake of fire being called the second DEATH (not eternal torture chamber). It's good that Chan puts forth the Bible and says all he can do is present what's there. .... Well? That's the very reason I stopped believing in eternal torment - I don't see a good case for it presented in the Bible once I was able to read it without the lens of tradition that says eternal torment in place of everywhere it says death and destruction and perish and consumed. You have to read too much into and straight up add clauses and modifiers to too many verses and passages in order to make it sound like the Bible teaches eternal torment and the immortal, eternal human soul.
Exactly.How could our God of love be happy with saved people and whole Universe,if somewhere in a Space would be people torturing and burning forever and ever?No way.
Well then, let's keep it simple for you then. If someone chooses not to accept God, where will they spend eternity? I'm waiting....... Don't forget, God isn't going to be there.
Enamored with "Hell" but which hell? Gehenna or Sheol? Encouraging an attitude of separation based on adherence to doctrine instead of encouraging obedience to the Lord of Love who gave a commandment no "Christian" I have met in the last year can recall for me. They can tell me why people will be tortured for eternity, not knowing that eternity was a bad translation of "aeonian." They relish watching others being tortured "forever" as "just" punishment for temporal sins. Contradictions abound, but love is missing.
I appreciate your comment. However... Temporal sins? And just what is that? How about; sins against an *eternal* God? Revelation 20:14 " And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." What about the lake of fire, which is of a lake of fire and brimstone? I understand where you're coming from, but imo instead of contradictions abound, I think you have to do a pretty good job of dancing around and avoiding what is very clear scripture. Did you read the story Jesus told? An exert: Luke 16:23-26 ESV "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house 28 for I have five brothers-so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” God is Love, but he is also a number of other characteristics, namely, that he is *perfectly* righteous and just Psalm 89:14 "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you." God's unimaginable love is shown in his grace in abbudance towards us as sinners, his mercy by both allowing us to continue living in this world without instant judgement, and sending His only begotten and perfect Son, to humble himself to this level and be totured and mudered and take on the entire punishment for the sins of the whole world, and then offer us forgvieness through this as a free gift. Not only that, but part of that free gift of love and grace is that he will put his Holy Spirit in you in this world so you can walk with him, and you will be given eternal life to dwell in his presence of perfect joy, love, peace and holiness forever, and he will show you for an eternity all the things about him. 1 Corintheans 2:9 " But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”-" Yes, God *is* love and kindness and mercy and grace, and he is so on the level of a perfect eternal God. However, you cannot just pick and select the parts that make sense to you, and choose only what you like. He is also a perfectly just, righteous, *holy* God. All of this was displayed on the cross. That is why God's grace is so profound, because once you understand what those who transgress against such a Holy God deserve, Jesus becomes the most beautiful thing you can imagine.
Not enamored with Hell, but God's word. Why did Jesus come to earth? Out of love, but to save people from Hell. I don't "relish" anyone being punished, but want to share how to escape it. Love is not missing. An indescribable Love send Jesus for us all to escape Hell. That's the ultimate Love.
If you read the words of Jesus in the gospels, it will become very clear to you that rescuing people from hell was the precise reason for the incarnation. You may characterize that as 'personal fire insurance', but the words of Jesus himself cannot be denied. Do you take Jesus seriously? Will you read and digest his words?
"we can't afford to be wrong on this issue" - argument based on fear. maybe we can't afford to lose the manipulative power that the concept of hell affords us over lay people.
How can you erase hell from the Bible???? After all that is all about the good news=Gospel=Ευαγγέλιο. We can escape hell only through Jesus. If there is no hell there is no need fow Salvation!!!
A: How can you erase hell from the Bible?-Don26gr B: Easy, it should never have been in the Bible in the first place! This argument irritates me more than any of the other ones. The people who throw this out there don't understand all are going to be saved BECAUSE of Christ, not despite Him. If anything, Eternal torment teaches that Christ died in vain. According to that ideaology, even though Jesus died for all, only about 5% are saved by His act. They have made Him out to be an utter failure! they are also upset because if Jesus saves all then that means that they did nothing to deserve their salvation!
Oneskeptical Guy That is the good news= Ευαγγέλιο. Salvation and escape from hell and eternal tornment thanks to Jesus. Only God knows the stats. Do you know better and say 5%? Of course we don't deserve our Salvation. Its only His Grace that brought our Salvation. (I wonder what Bible you read?? You sound to me like Jehova's witnesses...)
don26gr Gee, I dont think you thought your hell doctrine through and just swallowed it whole! At its core, you believe that Jesus saves us from his Dads wrath! Thats a slap in the face to God! Since less than 10% of the world is Christian (Forgetting the fact that those Christians represent 33,000 different Christian denominations, each sending those who believe differently, to Hell) you have 90% of ALL mankind going into eternal torture. That's not good news! In fact that means Jesus failed to do his fathers WILL that ALL mankind be saved!
Oneskeptical Guy I'm an agnostic atheist, I think you mistook my meaning completely, I was being tongue in cheek, there is no hell and there is no Jesus to save you, it's all BS.
When I say "God wouldn't do this, would he?", I'm not questioning God. I'm questioning the standard human interpretation of how God behaves. There is the standard interpretation about the Hell and eternity. But that's no more or less a human interpretation than some other interpretation. And when I question that interpretation, it's pretty arrogant to claim that your interpretation is immutably the same thing as God's intention. God's ways *are* above my ways. But they're also above your ways. And just because *you* say that this is how to interpret God's word does not mean that's necessarily God's intention. Please consider the possibility that Isaiah 55 applies to your own view of God's intentions as well.
Yes I was thinking the same thing. By what standard is his interpretation better than another. Really all he has to fall back on is tradition and the fear that most denominations will reject his interpretation if he doesn't fall in line. The traditional teaching of hell and the immortality of the soul is largely inspired by paganism. The Bible clearly teaches the gift of God is eternal life through Christ. Not that everyone automatically has eternal life either good or bad.
What in the world are you saying? Bible interpretation is very basic and scientific. There is one standard of interpretation...that's it. Anything else would be based on our own personal biases and experiences. Context, word study, et etc. Where do we get this crazy idea that there should be multiple ways to interpret? There is a right way to interpret and a wrong way to interpret. Any author has one specific idea in mind when he writes. Find out what God intended to say..that's the point.
While Bible teaches that there is hell it does not teach eternal hell. When Bible says in Hebrews, 'eternal judgment' it does not mean 'eternally judging' but being judged once and consequences are eternal. When Bible in Hebrews says 'eternal salvation' it does not mean that Jesus dies multiple times but He died once for all of us and consequences are eternal. When Jesus says, 'eternal punishment' once again the punishment is once and consequences are eternal. In 1 Tim. 6 we find that only God is immortal. What does that say about us? That we are mortal and therefore there is no eternal punishment. So, if we ask what does it mean being tormented for ever and ever as it says number of times in Revelation? Is there anywhere in the Bible where expression 'forever and ever' does not mean 'eternal'. Yes there are number of places in the OT. When Anna dedicated Samuel he was given to serve in the temple 'for ever and ever' (1 Sam. 1). When servants in ancient Jewish household decided on the day of Jubilee to remain in the household of their masters instead of being set as free, they were to stay in that household 'for ever and ever'. What does 'forever and ever' mean in both cases? Not eternally but as long as they live. When God through prophet Isaiah prophesied about destruction of the nation of Edom, He said that the 'night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever and ever'. If you go anywhere in Middle East today you will not find smoke of Edom going eternally. The same language used in the book of Revelation is also used in Isaiah 34:10. If smoke of Edom is not rising now in Middle East but we know that Edom has been destroyed where consequences of destruction are eternal than it speaks about limited time of torment and not eternal torment of hell. It really all depends if one believes in immortality of soul. If God is only immortal and we are not than issue is resolved. When God said to Adam and Eve, 'if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will die' what did He really mean? That they will not really die? In fact, the serpent says, 'you will not really die'. So who do we believe? This one however is a most important for me. Once the reign of sin is over and we as God's people are in God's glorious kingdom, what is really going to be a deterrent against future rebellion? Cross or hell. If eternal hell exists it will always muddle the right motive for the loving obedience to loving God. This is a huge problem for me and it should be for everyone. Are we going to be motivated by fear of by love in God's glorious kingdom?
AMEN!!!! 2nd Samuel 22:31- As for God, His way is perfect...Numbers 23:19- God is not a man that He should lie... the truth of hell has nothing to do with what we think or say. God’s Word has already given us all we need to know about the subject.
For those attempting to deny the eternality of hell (and therefore, call God a liar in the process) can you somehow explain to me what it be like to "not exist" anymore? That's like trying to contemplate what nothingness is: it can't be done because even a blank vacuum is something. So, it's virtually impossible to not exist because once God creates you, your invisible soul becomes immortal. Now, chew on this: God first appeared to Moses in the form of literally burning bush that was not consumed by the fire. If God can create that miracle then God can also create a Lake of Fire that does not consume it's adversaries, too. Do not be deceived; hell is more terrifying than one could even begin to imagine because unlike our universe, it's not constricted by a time-space continuum. Therefore repent and believe on Jesus Christ as your only hope for salvation from the wrath of God.
Hell is a pagan myth! Here is something for you to chew on! The Egyptian religions revealed to the world that all the judged wicked will be cast into a Lake Of Fire, 4500 years before it was ever a written in the Book Of Revelation as God's revelation ot the world! Please explain how that is possible...
Oneskeptical Guy ... Interesting that you mention this and I'll admit, I didn't want to believe this at first. However, regardless of how "accurate" this accusation of yours is, it is also quite interesting that the Egyptian culture, too, fully acknowledged that the wicked must be judged, is it not? Therefore, even if what you say is true, that does not constitute this to be nothing more than a "pagan myth" and even more so it supports the sound biblical doctrine of "seek justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God [Micah 6:8]." Yet, let's make this a bit more personal for you: do you believe that pedophiles, rapists, murderers, and the like should receive justice or mercy for their sins against God???
The indisputable fact is that while the Pagans believed in hell, for the first 4500 years of the Hebrews, and then the first 500 years of Christianity, they believed the scriptures spoke of universal salvation with the coming Messiah. So who sins against God, and receives mercy? "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32 The question then is, does every one repent? "And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5:13 Hundreds of buried scriptures testify That All will be saved!
Jamel Salter Or maybe they studied the Bible more carefully than you! My NASB does not have the word hell in it if I read the margin reference notes! If you did, you will begin to understand that much of what the church teaches is simply kiddie sunday school religion, and has no real basis in fact!
God wants humans to love Him for who He is Not fore what He can do to them. What would you say if a child of 30 years old said he only obeyed his parents out of fear of them taking away the car. If it wasn't for the car he didn't care. That's what Hell do for a lot of people, if it wasn't for hell they wouldn't care to obey. Real love if to love someone with no strings attached. That's what God does and that's what God wants us to do. If we can do that God will give us eternal life. If we can't we will not see life period not tournament for ever.
That sounds good and dandy, but your emotional view of hell does nothing to change the truth. How about you take a look at what is really there? We all have feelings and we all have what we HOPE is the truth but that doesn't make it the truth. The gospel according to "only1gumpy" doesn't really hold weight....what does God say about it??
you don't understand the gospel:People don't go to heaven because of obedience, and people don't go to hell for disobedience. " Real love is to love someone with no strings attached" , that statement is completely false. In fact its the total opposite....we require MORE from those we love vs.strangers. Just think about it....if a stranger lets you down, you may be irritated or angry but you get over it easy enough, but have your spouse cheat on you! You have more responsibility to those you love, not less.
When discussing "hell," like so may other biblical topics, it is important to go back to scripture in the original language. Some thing will always be lost in any translation. Unfortunately, most of those who have translated the bible into English were not even trying to be accurate in cases where an accurate translation could challenge the accepted doctrines of their church. They often presuppose a doctrine and then try to twist scripture to fit it. This is unfortunately especially true of the more modern, dynamic equivalence versions like the NIV. Almost every English language bible contains a huge an unjustifiable bias in favor of eternal damnation. The one exception with which I am familiar is Young's Literal Translation. The bible itself never talks about eternal damnation. It does not use words for eternal or forever at all. The terms it does use (Olam in Hebrew or Aion in Greek) refer to a finite although indefinitely very long period of time. The bible never says "forever and ever" but rather "unto the ages of the ages." In the old testament it does not say that the law should be kept forever either, but only until the end of the age. The proper translation looks forward to the messianic era when there will be a new covenant. "Eternal punishment" does not mean punishment that lasts forever. It means punishment that occurs in the age to come, once Jesus has returned to Earth. Most of the references to "hell" are actually about Sheol or Hades. Those would probably be better rendered as "the grave," as their plain meaning is simply the ground in which dead bodies are buried. Hades literally means "the Unseen" as was commonly used by the ancient Greeks to refer not only to the abode of the dead but also to underground places like gold mines and the dirt where seeds were planted. The author of Ecclesiastes makes it pretty clear that those in Sheol are not conscious. Neither term has any positive or negative connotation in relation to the righteousness or sinfulness of the person buried there. The bible makes it clear that even great men like King David are still in Hades waiting for the Bodily Resurrection in the last days. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna, he pretty clearly meant to refer to the city of Jerusalem's garbage dump in the very real physical location of the Valley of Hinnom. This is where all sorts of useless refuse were incinerated, including the dead bodies of animals and of humans who had committed crimes so heinous that they did not deserve a respectful burial. (The site had previously been used to burn human children alive as sacrifices to Moloch, a sin which God most strongly condemned. God proclaimed that it would never enter his mind that such anything like that should ever be done.) The same terms used for "hell" are used for Sodom and Gomorrah, which are no longer on fire. The very next chapter after the "tormented day and night forever and ever" explains that not long after that point in the future there will no longer be any night, as all old things shall pass away and God himself will be the light for the new earth. The things described in Revelation chapter 20 cannot last forever, as they no long exist in Revelation Chapter 21. The Arguments for Eternal Damnation are far weaker in my view than the arguments for Universal Reconciliation. I do not consider either doctrine correct, however. Keeping with the principle of parsimony, the simplest doctrine that aligns with the words of scripture is Conditional Immortality. The soul is never described as immortal in the bible. In fact, the epistles to Timothy say that only God is Immortal. Immortality is often described as a gift to those who remain in Christ, not as a natural state of the soul. It is a very evil false doctrine to teach that human souls are immortal and all that matters is where they spend eternity. Everything that exists depends on God for its sustenance. A human can only live forever so long as he remains in Christ. Without his grace, we would simply cease to exist.
"The things described in Revelation chapter 20 cannot last forever, as they no long exist in Revelation Chapter 21" Yet it still exists in chapter 22! i agree with your complete statement, just not your conclusion. Lets start with Gehenna! Who did Jesus threatened with Gehenna? ONLY His disciples and the Pharisees! Not once did he ever threaten any unbelievers with Gehenna! in fact he made it a point to move away from the crowds when discussing Gehenna! You are correct, Gehenna was where children were burnt up alive to the pagan god Moleck! God said: "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded-- *nor did it enter my mind that they should do such a detestable thing* and so make Judah sin. Are we to now believe that God changed his mind and now believes burning people up is constantly on his mind and he no longer considers it detestable? You cite revelation. why dont we start here: Rev 5:13 "Then I heard *EVERY* creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and *all that is in them*, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" OK, so which of those creatures that are giving praise, honor, glory, and power to God and the Lamb *With ALL that is IN them*, is being put to eternal death?
opengates777 Hey open, run your translation and interpretation of Hebrew scriptures by Hebrew scholars, and they will show you just how much your church has butchered their Holy scriptures! Your so far off base, its not even funny!
The Hebrews already translated for us open! They continue to insist for the last 1500 years that their manuscripts have no scripture verses that mention any eternal torment in hell! While your OT Bible is riddled with the word hell as a place of eternal torment! Either the Hebrews meticulously preserved Gods word for 6000 years without error, or they didnt, and your 1600AD Bible somehow did! Which is it open?
I think that we can thank God that we are not responsible for judging who goes to hell & who goes to heaven. We can just let go of that & let a just & loving Father be in charge of that. I know that many people are experiencing Hell in this life because they don't know the One Who came to give Life. I'm amazed that the religious folks love to hold the threat of hell over the lost & smugly proclaim that they are going to heaven. Really? Is that the will of Yeshua? Shalom
There's no such thing as a poor opinion. Your arrogance in judging others opinions is appalling. If you can't respect others opinions you should quit badgering others.
Johanon Zimmerman I agree with you. Francis's point was we're supposed to be humble, not arrogant. It's not our place to judge- it's God's. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
gymnastgirlflips 1Cor.2 says that the spiritual man judges ALL things but he himself is subject to judgment by no man. Without judgment (discernment & not condemnation) we might end up drinking the poison kool-aid. We are not called to condemn or point the finger at those we think deserve to go to hell.
If I'm not qualified to judge whether or not a god's actions as described in a text are evil or not, how can I know whether I'm submitting to an evil being? If my moral compass is broken, I have no way of discerning good from evil and I might be committing to an evil being. Have I missed something?
Our moral compass is broken from the start. Only the holy spirit can fix that and it's a process. We have to accept the fact that we are broken by sin and controlled by wickedness without him. It's a hard truth to swallow but you have to humble yourself before him. Think about it, he's the one who gave us life and everything that comes with it, he owes us nothing but gave us everything. You are qualified to judge your own actions based on your conscience and if we're all being honest we are in desperate need of a savior which is why Jesus became that for us. Judge your life based on the law of the 10 commandments, see how many you've broken and then realize that Jesus paid the fine for our transgressions and our crimes committed against him. Remember Jesus said "If anyone looks at a woman with lust, he has committed adultery with her in his heart" And that "If anyone hates his brother he has committed murder in his heart. We're all guilty, there is not one who hasn't broken the law, but that's why Jesus paid our fine with his precious, perfect, pure blood.
Kyle Burton Can we know whether god is good or not? When I read the Bible about things he is purported to have said, I think his acts are not moral. For example, sending a bear to maul 40 children who were teasing his prophet seems immoral. If a person did that, he would be thrown in jail for a long time. Imagine if there was a human leader who did some things that people thought were good, but who also did many things that people believe were immoral and one of the followers of this leader told you, that you just don't have the capacity to understand morality in the same way the leader does. Just put your trust in him and he'll steer you in the right direction. If what he tells you seems immoral, go along with it anyhow because he's smarter than you. Would you follow a leader like that?
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." You have to understand that gods justice and his ways are higher than ours. He's proven his love for us time and time again, what we see as unfair from our perspective is more than fair once you realize the true nature of things. God has only ever shown his wrath against extremely wicked people who have no intentions of changing their ways. God is not Human, he created humans...he knows us better than we know ourselves. We can definitely know that god is good because he's given us so many second chances, if it was a human being in that position we would be long gone by now without a doubt. He's taken the time to give us a chance and to guide us...and that cost him more pain than we can understand, he is the definition of selfless. All that you understand to be good in this life are from god. He is the completeness of love, mercy, kindness, justice, patience, compassion, courage, selflessness, hope, and faith. These are not human characteristics. Because of the choice we made we are prone to hate, jealousy, greed, violence, deception, lust, pride, fear, pain, sorrow, etc... I know it's hard to hear and harder to believe that since it's just me telling you. The beautiful thing is he made it possible for us to really, truthfully, tangibly get to know him if we so choose to. When you lay down your weapons the first thing you become aware of is how holy and perfect god is, the second is how imperfect and broken you are. You realize the weight of your sin because you can now see it through a new set of eyes. Pray on it, read the bible. God encourages us to test our faith so it's not a bad thing that you're asking these questions! Don't judge God by other Christians, we are imperfect but the difference is we aren't running to sin, we're running away from sin to god. Every day he makes me a better person but I am far from perfect and no better than anyone else, its hard to explain unless you know him and you walk with him
Kyle Burton are you familiar with the Euthyphro dilemma? Plato told a story of a conversation between his teacher Socrates and Euthyphro. Socrates asked Euthyphro how he could know what is good/just/moral. Euthyphro answered, 'morality is what god commands.' Socrates asked him, is morality determined by god's commands, or does god give the commands that he gives because they are moral? Do you understand the distinction being drawn by this question? The point question is, for example, could the act of smashing babies against rocks be moral if Yahweh says it is moral?
The whole discussion about God's way not being ours is great, but he turns it completely upside down in an effort to support his own viewpoint. The fundamental question that Chan seems to gloss right over is, "What is more like God, and therefore, more unlike humanity? An insatiable need to enact a code of justice or an unending ability to show mercy? Which one sounds more like humanity and which one sounds more like God?" He presumes that a "higher way," a more Godlike way, is to send people to eternal damnation. I don't agree -- that sounds like most humans I know, who desire their pound of flesh, who desire to enact justice even when they have been shown mercy.
You say, "What is more like God, and therefore, more unlike humanity? An insatiable need to enact a code of justice or an unending ability to show mercy? :. Answer : BOTH, equally. Hence the cross where we see both justice and love displayed. The doctrine of hell Is the Biblical idea that people who don't want to love and worship God , submit their will to his can continue to do so. Why would a loving God force you to be in His presence for eternity when you don't want to?
+SwordofManticorE Actually it is good news for the people who love peace and have compassion for every human being not just people who look and think like them. The good news is that all the innocent victims of sin, and violence will come back to life in a world that is free of evil, and they will live forever in that perfect world. Hitler's victims for example, the ones who lived a life of love will come back to life in a world free of violence and torture and death. After God destroys evil people in hell there will be no more reason to fear sudden death through violence, diseases, natural disasters, famines, poverty etc.. Every single person on planet earth then will be able to enjoy peace, love and happiness forever. That is in fact good news, the kind that humanity cannot get from anywhere else, not even science. No one else has the power to destroy all evil and guarantee peace and safety for every living human, and animal on planet earth except the one and only loving, merciful, compassionate, faithful, all powerful and eternal God of the universe. Hell the only permanent solution for the problem of evil in the world. We can all agree that powerful military weapons, well trained armies and police forces have not succeeded in providing peace and safety for every one all the time. These systems are made up of human beings. They can never predict where violence will erupt next. By the time they become aware, many innocent people have died. And unless there is a God who can restore these people back to life, some great injustice has happened to them and no human can fix it. Certainly capturing murderers and putting them in jail never restores the lives that are taken. Praise God for the Good News! Life does not end at death for the people who believe in the living God.
+Lea Leandre I get it now. Your good news is God telling us to repent and worship Him so He can save us from where He will send us if we don't. Gotcha!
+SwordofManticorE Indeed that is the good news. People don't have to suffer eternal death if they repent of their sins and do good to one another instead of evil. That is all God wants. For all of us to live freely on a planet where there is no evil. indeed if you choose evil and refuse to repent, He will destroy you because if He doesn't you will continue to be a danger to the health and happiness of all the people who want to live in peace with one another. I can't think of any solution with more fairness. Obviously human wisdom has not come up with a cure for evil. That is why so much suffering as a result of violence and human depravity exist on planet earth still today. Only God has the cure and He will not force it on anyone. The people who choose the cure will live forever, and all the people who refuse the cure will suffer eternal death. It's a very simple, effective and permanent solution to problems of death, violence and suffering on planet earth. Praise God indeed!
No, Chan wrote a book questioning hell, and concludes that Hell must exist. However, Co-author, Dr. Preston Sprinkle, the scholarly researcher behind the book, recanted his belief in Hell shortly after book publication! Much of what Dr. sprinkle previously thought was scholarly evidence and clear scriptures supporting the doctrine of Hell, proved to be false, and manipulated! So who do you believe, The researching Doctor who concludes on the basis of scholarly research of scripture and historical evidence that Hell dosent exist, or the Pastor who does not disclose the fact that his book suppresses vital information that could expose hell as a myth?
Mist Mental He may be wrong on his interpretation of hell. At least unlike many others he is not telling people that everyone will go to heaven no matter how they choose to live their lives. He is only wrong on one account. Hell will not last forever. The bible is clear about the fact that it is a real place, and it will be used to punish the ungodly. Malachi 4: 1-3 "“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts." The wicked will become ashes, just like the ones people get when they cremate the body of a person who used to be alive. The purpose of hell fire is to destroy and cleanse, not to torture people forever for trespasses they committed during a short life. That would not be fair. God is a God of justice. Peace!
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10
Hell is very real. Do not be deceived by these so called false teachings. I believe anyone who is going to hell knows before they die they have full knowledge of choosing or not choosing salvation. Our Father holds his scales even. Continue to Trust in Jesus! Sometimes when we are set on a course to move into bigger things along side of God. The devil will work twice as hard to stop us cus he is scared to death of what we will do when we start to realize who we are in the BODY!
I totally agree. I just believe Chan got the duration of hell wrong. It should be corrective punishment (like that of a loving parent) not eternal torture.
Chan's argument begins with the assumption that the collection of books we call the Bible are "without error". Given that as a starting point requires continuous hermeneutical twist and bends in an attempt to harmonize that which is often contradictory. Chan is essentially arguing that God is actually WORSE than us on our worse days. His emotional appeal to "God's higher sense of justice" is silly and defames the name of our Father.
It's funny how sometimes people think they're defending God's justice, when they might actually be defaming it. I agree with Chan that it's important to read the Bible humbly and respectfully; but I certainly have not shared conclusions with him.
Yeah, he starts from the assumption that any normal Christians would start with, namely that the Bible is God's Word. How outrageous, right? Do you claim to be a Christian? If so, then do you really believe that the Bible contains errors, and if so, how on earth can you know which verse is true and which is false? Do you decide by throwing a dice or something?
Christian Guild Jesus is not a book, your terminology is a bit confused here. I was specifically talking about Scripture, not about a Person of the Trinity, not sure how you can get so confused with what I said.
You righteous, flawed, beautiful, disciple. Francis, I'm glad that, I'm just so glad that God made you... that you come up with the truth, in all doubt. Everyone argues and everyone complains and everyone is atheist and years scientists try and study it and for years preists have tried to understand but YOU. YOU sit in a chair and you just talk about.. nothing but the truth. Nothing but what God is trying to say, you have provided us with something no other man on this earth can provide us with in all angles of God. I KNOW from the second I saw you on howto basic at my christian school.. your rebirth, your holy spirit, I'm sure the ickiness on your heart you felt for a couple of days really did change you into the person you are now. You are not an adult, or a grown man, to me you're still a disciple, to me you're someone, one of those people who has the marking of God on them. Out of everyone else who does, you bring it out and you're just.. if I ever, ever had a question about God.. and about my faith, i would ask you.
I believe... I always have, I I I just me me me... Jesus saves... we all have sin only believe and repent, being humble is not hard, we make it hard in our stupidity and unbelief, help us to believe and rest in Jesus Yahweh
Thank you for common sense GOD, Christ, Salvation, Grace, Scripture, Faith. I have just found your messages and my hope is that those who doubt, begin to think about their souls after we leave this earth. Keep up your ministry and God bless your dedication to His word.
What Francis Chan says about arrogance and putting God in submission of our reasoning is something that God has been teaching me. God has also been showing me that his ways are not our own. He doesn't have to explain himself to us. God is holy, just, righteous, loving, merciful, kind, all knowing. We have made God to be a cotton candy figure that we no longer realize how holy he is.
I love how he begins by saying "We shouldn't sway people, but provided the facts we have" and then gives what may be the most evangelical, opinionated view of the Bible. Pretty much everything he stated when talking about "I can't believe God did this" from the genocide, to the garden of eden, it was just filled to the brim with his own assumptions.
+Phil Thomas I was about to write a very similar comment. He is leaving a lot of holes in the evidence and everything he says points towards the very traditional evangelical views that are being challenged. Basically what he is doing by leaning towards the camera and sort of begging is "please don't leave our form of faith, lets just stick to this side of the story like we always have, otherwise you're going to fry". That's some nice fear mongering.
Tuttermuts Exactly! dude, we are cut from the same cloth. Look at history, religion, especially Christianity, has always changed, its always progressed. There have always been people who fought the change. People who fought the positive vibes and the love, but strangely enough, God is love lol. In the Bible they were called the Pharisees, but shocker, things changed anyway. It's crazy people can't see that, and they're just prolonging a process that's been happening for thousands upon thousands of years.
***** Aside from one beeing an institute and the other a bunch of smaller groups (so they can always blame those "other" christians) I don't really see how the changing throughout history doesn't apply to both? If that's what you're referring too.
i miss hearing teachings on spiritual warfare and deliverance. we need more revelation on this area. i thank God lots of preacher are coming to the realization that the power of God is available for us to cast out demons and deliverance from them all of this is real.
The only thing I noticed os that hd cut the verse in Revelation short. After it talks about the beast and false prophet being tormented forever and those whose names weren't found in the book were cast in as well. It says right after that that this is the second death. It doesn't say the others were tormented forever. You would think that would have been clearly stated just like the previous verse if all others were to be tormented forever but it says it is the second death.
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
God is LOVE.Use your God given conscience and the direction of the Holy Spirit to determine what complies with God's love.Be as a little child before God and no matter what you hear, trust Him ,His love will guide you.
Hard to take Francis Chan serious. He is an apologist for the NAR and the IHOP cults. Loves to talk about himself in most of his sermons. After all it's all about Mister Chan
I know first hand that He is loving, kind, and merciful bc I am a sinner and have been loved, given mercy and forgiveness despite what I deserve. We are given opportunity to accept His love. But He is also a God of wrath who punishes the evil in the hearts of those that do not accept His gift of salvation. I do not want to argue. I just enjoy sharing my beliefs as others share theirs. Thank you for your question.
Like it or not “Cause Produces an Effect!” And we are all the product of an “effect!” We were all “born” (Not Willingly) and placed into the environment we now exist in. And like “Actors” in a play, given the scrips of our parts to play. Some will be villains, some will be heroine, and some will be heroes. And by our “parts” we learn by experience, what is good and what is evil. Hence, we now learn why the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil was placed in the Garden of Evil…for our perfection.
Thank you, may God bless you with all spiritual blessings. We might not all agree, but I pray that God through his holy spirit guides us into all truth, teaches concerning all things, gives us wisdom and understanding so we may know the mysteries and deeper things of God.
Lets stay humble and understand that they believe only what they have been taught! They have been taught "Once to live, and then the judgement" without being told that God NEVER said the judgment would last an eternity!
Why are God’s thoughts higher than our thoughts? The context of this passage shows that it is because of God’s mercy. 7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:7-9
@@chrisanok9283 Hey Chris. I believe everything Scripture says about Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, and the Lake of Fire. Unfortunately though, many popular ideas of "hell" carry extra-biblical baggage that I'd like to avoid. At the end of the day, we need to submit to God's word as the ultimate authority. God bless you brother.
I understand you have your view but I am not putting him on a pedestal, I am acknowledging his passion for Christ and encouraging him on his walk. Positive is always better than a negative….encourage and lift up one another.
"we can't be careless in this discussion because we're talking about real people" (accurate paraphrase), but for sure god can throw people into lakes of fire rightly because he's throwing real people there.
The Egyptians pagan religion taught that their God tossed the judged wicked into a lake of fire, 4500 years before Our God ever revealed it to the church as a revelation in the Book of Revelation. That means the church either borrowed the hell myth from the pagans, or the Bibles lake of fire has a different purpose! The early church believed that the lake of fire was for purification, not for torture!
“Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume His enemies.” Hebrews 10:26-27 NLT
Matthew 25:46. Jesus is talking to his disciples about the Final Judgment. Starting in verse 44: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a strange or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these you did not do for me' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Merry Christmas! "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to *all* people." - Luke 2:10
Susan Eggert Hmm, that seems to contradict St Paul “By grace you have been saved through faith. *And this is not your own doing;it is the gift of God*, *not a result of works*, so that *no one may boast*.” (Eph 2:8)
I don't yet know where Chan stands on the doctrine, but I like the way he has posed the question. We already have too many "Christians" at each others' throats over doctrinal issues. Important and consequential? Yes. "Can't afford to get this wrong"? I'm not sure about that. I don't think people's salvation is normally dependent on their embracing the right view of hell, or other such teachings.
As with most of what FC says, very well expressed ideas. I struggle w/Romans 13 (my rebellious nature) ... but that does fail in comparison to what FC brings up here. Great to watch him because he gets my mind to at least consider the things of Him.
John 10:10 The thief came to steal, kill and destroy (that's living hell ) but I (Jesus Christ) come to give life and life more abundantly (Eternal Life)! God is Infinite Wisdom...human beings are limited and finite!
4:16 the reverse of this argument can also be true. What if you are ascribing something wicked to God, such as the idea that he torments people in eternal hell, that later turns out to be untrue, what does that say about you? Have you really understood God's ways?
Psa 86:5-9 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; AND PLENTEOUS IN MERCY UNTO ALL THEM THAT CALL UPON THEE!!! All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. Those people from each nation that call upon the name of the Lord, they shall be saved!
The only thing that I know for sure is.....that I don't understand everything. I have faith in things unseen and believe that God is loving and just. From that point of view.....I begin to try and understand.
How do I get involved with your ministry? The Lord called me as an evangelist and I've been working in that office for about 5 years. But I need more growth and where I presently reside that time has come to a close. We are not like minded in the thoughts of soul winning. Please I like to get involved with your ministry? 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽💯
Actually, I already addressed what "The Lake of Fire" means literally in the Greek. "Lake" means lake and "Fire" means fire. "Brimstone" also mean brimstone or sulphur. It means exactly what the KJV said it means.
PRAISE THE LORD ALMIGHTY HOLY N PREFECT IN ALL HIS WAYS TOWARDS MAN Thank You Precious Brother For Humbling Yourself That The LORD WOULD REVEAL HIMSELF To You With Such A POWERFUL SOBERING AND CONVICTING WORD " LORD HAVE MERCY US WHO THINK WE KNOW !!! " THIS WORD IS TIMLY HOLY SPIRIT WORKS THROUGH WHOM HE CHOOSES NOT MAN AND Who They " THINK " # Like King 👑 David GLORY HALLELUJAH ALL PRAISE GLORY N HONOR TO ABBA
This is very revealing about how masterfully this doctrine of control by fear has been crafted so as to discourage questioning and keep people terrified. If you don't accept hell because you find it unconscionable and morally repulsive as an imperfect human, and reason from this that a God who is perfectly loving, merciful and just couldn't possibly be more cruel and vindictive than you would ever be then you are guilty of pride, of setting yourself above God and are therefore equally as hell-bound as any unbeliever. You must ignore your own conscience (the one God supposedly gave you to help you discern right from wrong) and simply accept the teaching or else. It's an almost perfectly-fashioned mental prison. Almost.
God asks for faith, and understanding and wisdom is given to those who seek it. I think Francis already made the point that sitting as a judge to God's actions to label them "absurd", "unacceptable", etc. presupposes your mind as capable of understanding all actions by God when its abundantly evident the human mind cannot even comprehend a minute fraction of the available knowledge of creation. Humility is what God asks for.
Phl 2:11-12 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.
Psa 138:4-6 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, when they hear the words of thy mouth. Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD. Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: BUT THE PROUD HE KNOWETH AFAR OFF!!!! Your madness easily refuted!
Rev 14:7 ...Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
I guess my thing is that God IS Love. I don't want to put Him under me. I don't want to say He must do what I think He ought. But it says that Love has nothing to do with fear for fear come from punishment. He'll just doesn't seem consistent with the character of Christ I read in the Bible.
McKenan Bundy God changes not, He is the same yesterday and today. God is not just love, He is Just, Righteous, Holy, and on and on. Love is only one aspect of His Character /Nature. Can't pick and choose.
People go to hell not because of pride and sin, but because of unbelief. They wont agree with God, when He tells them they are depraved and hostile to Him. They wont trust God to change them to be whatever He wants them to be. In summary they want self rule and hell is for self rulers. Heaven is all about Gods will and Gods glory.
God is not sending anyone to any hell! Thats just nonsense! Go read up on the early Greek speaking church responsible for translating the Greek manuscripts! They never believed in the current churches rubbish, the pagans did!
Romans 3: 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
This refutes your comment friend.
SwordofManticorE Not at all. Paul is simply saying that the faithlessness of man has no effect on the faithfulness of God. Even though many will not believe, God is faithful in that He still extends chance after chance to them. He will never stop until the last day, when we will all face judgement based on whether we placed our faith in Christ or in ourselves.
Nathan Ojong That is a load of garbage. It is not in our faith in God that saves us, it is God's faith in us that saves us.
SwordofManticorE You sound like a Calvinist that says there is no human free will. There is a choice made by man as to whether or not they will believe. To say God forces people to be saved is to say that God chooses a select few to be saved. To say that God chooses a select few to be saved is to say that He damns most to hell. To say that He damns most to hell is to say that He didn't die for all sin. To say that He didn't die for all is to contradict 1 John 2:2. To say He damns most to hell is to say He doesn't want everyone to be saved. To say He doesn't want everyone to be saved is to contradict 2 Peter 3:9. To say God forces a select few to be saved is to say Jesus isn't omnipotent when He called the rich young ruler. To say there is no human free will is to says God is the cause of sin. To say God is the cause of sin is to contradict James 1. There are way too many fallacies with the idea of there being no human free will.
God is so Holy and I am not. Walking with God is hard but I don’t want to miss out. Anyone who sees this comment pray for me. 😞
Be encouraged! Look to Jesus!
it's 2019 now. and this is the video, the one video, that finally tipped the wobbling domino of my faith at 20 years old and sent alllll the rest of the dominoes crashing down over the years...until all I had left were pieces, and a deep, cold, aching despair in my soul.
cos here I was, a good trophy-earning AWANA bible study girl, FINALLY looking honestly at all the inconvenient ugly parts of the Bible I'd always ignored or glossed over, and searching for answers beyond the standard "His-ways-are-not-our-ways" dismissal. and here was this amazing pastor, Francis freakin' CHAN, talking so earnestly and honestly, and bringing up all the things I was struggling with, and I remember literally nodding while I watched and thinking "okay, here it comes! he's gonna say something I never thought of before and I'll finally get what I need to figure this out!"
...and then in seconds, that spark of hope turned into despair. he went right back to the same line of reasoning. he didn't have anything better. he shrugged with a pained expression and justified all the terrible stuff with, "maybe that seems wrong to us because God's sense of justice is so much more evolved and higher than ours."
like he was RESIGNING himself to following a God with that kind of character.
and I remember crying myself to sleep that night and thinking, and I STILL think to this day: "...THAT'S what a more evolved sense of justice looks like? that's what GOD's morality really looks like?? because if that's really true, and if He really did command all the terrible things I'm reading...I have been worshiping an abusive monster this whole time and never knew it. and there's no way around it. no excuse. there's nothing. my relationship with Him is worthless."
what kind of faith do we really have, if the one argument we fall back on when we're pressed too hard is "we can't afford to get it wrong"?? because that statement heavily implies that the whole foundation of what you believe is ultimately rooted in fear.
not love. FEAR.
and I was taught that perfect love CASTS OUT fear!! I was taught that the greatest of these is love! I was taught that the whole point of EVERYTHING God did and does for us is love! I was taught that when we know the character of Jesus, we know the character of the Father! so what could I do??
what could I do when the groaning of my conscience screamed that what I was reading was vile and wrong and NOT something a just, loving Creator would do? what could I do when the God I was raised to believe in couldn't be reconciled with the God I saw in half the Bible? what could I do when I looked for Jesus in all those terrible, ugly passages, and couldn't find Him anywhere? what could I do, when I was taught the Bible is 100% true and infallible...and then that Bible showed me a God that I was now INCAPABLE of loving or obeying?
what can you do, when the slow fear creeps over you that maybe you hold your fellow human beings to a better standard of morality than you hold your own God? that this supposedly perfect, just, loving Creator could do any terrible, cruel, disgusting thing He felt like doing, and you could just excuse it with "His ways are not our ways and He's all-powerful anyway so what can ya do lol" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
what does that SAY about Him, about His character? seriously, what does your theology say about the kind of God you serve??
Mr. Francis Chan, I still have a lot of respect for you...but if your Heavenly Father walked into my preschool classroom one day, would I call Child Protective Services on him? cos it sure sounds like I would. and that's not just coming from arrogance, that comes from knowing what a loving parent looks like.
after 8 years, I'm finally reaching the light at the end of the tunnel and finding some peace again. though idk if peace is the right word. I am a certified "doubting thomas" now, who's embraced the audacity to question and scrutinize my own Creator. I don't have any of the certainty I had before, I don't have all my theological ducks in a nice straight row anymore, I don't view the Bible quite the way I used to anymore...and all of that is GOOD. my faith has never been more authentic or urgent than it is now, and all the defensiveness I used to have when people criticized it is gone...because my God is good, Jesus is good, and He doesn't need me to defend Him or make excuses for Him. He doesn't need me to prove any skeptics wrong, or color inside the lines when my questions are messy and theologically inconvenient.
He just wants me to come back home to Him, and love Him through my doubts. cos He's my Father. and He's a GOOD Father.
You have many more issues with God than just tell, otherwise you would just become an annhilationist and call it a day.
hey great that you're so honest and thats a symptom of God at work in us to help us to be truly honest. but for anyone struggling with these issues
Chan didn't just shrug and say "I don't know" he said, we are pieces of clay and we Submit to our creator who doesn't just have the capacity to love but is love. without God we wouldn't have any morality to judge anything let alone Him and we wouldn't have anything at all. even if we were just weird 1 dimensional creatures with a tiny capacity to experience life.. at least we would be alive. we would have to be eternally grateful for existence even if that existence was severely diminished compared to what we have now. I didn't plan on going on but it's good that FC has us all thinking...
Another thing I've noticed about faith (in myself and others) is that theres a spiritual blindness. If we had the ability to really just think about an issue, then often we can get a revelation that we didn't even really contemplate before. when we think about eternity I dont' think we really get it but when we keep thinking about it we get a glimpse of it and it's too huge so we can back away from the reality that is too much for us. I think God's anger and indignation can also be like that. Do we even realise how holy God is and how offensive it is to sin against Him? no we don't.
@@pilgrimfolk God sent Christ to be the reconciliation for the world back to God. 2 Cor 5:19. Check also Rom 11:32. God in his wisdom held all men in futility so that all may receive his mercy. It's not correct understanding of God's character to think he got offended. He looked at sin and had mercy and grace for us. Not offense. He looked at sinful humanity and loved us, reason Christ became. Jn 3:16
We can know God's character and full intentions as he has openly revealed himself in Christ. We don't have to sit on the fence! Paul told the brethren in Ephesus Acts 20:27 that he had taught them the whole purpose and plan of God.... We know these these things in the revelation of Christ. Let us study listen and learn of God through the perfect representation and image of himself - Christ!
"I cannot believe that God wants punishment to go on interminably any more than does a loving parent. The entire purpose of loving punishment is to teach, and it lasts only as long as is needed for the lesson. And the lesson is always love." -- Madeleine L'Engle, author
Eventually all will be reconciled to the Father via Jesus Christ and how the Victorious Gospel will eventually redeem all things that went down from Adam and Satan!
lean not on your own understanding
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
Everytime I think about how God almighty gave his only son to die on the cross for us wicked, undeserving people, I feel like crying. Thank you Lord Jesus 😔🙏☺
For God so loved the world...that's all of us...
I slandered this man because I thought he was fraudulent, and I was wrong about him. you'll probably never read this, but I'm truly sorry pastor Chan. Truly sorry.
+OurLastHope because I'm stupid and impatient. I honestly thought in this video, he was saying hell was not real. I made a huge mistake.
+Spiro climb We are all human. We all make mistakes. This man is in by no means a false prophet. God Bless Brother.
Amen, he is our brother in Christ most definitely, we should all question things
RE : '' we should all question things ''
This blew me away , because if there's one thing religious people don't do , it's questioning everything , especially when it comes to their beliefs , they simply reason throughout the premise a god exists.
Have you ever , objectively questioned yourself , WHY you believe that what you believe ?
Just curious, why do you believe what you believe?
the greatest form of worship is to fully surrender to God's will, even if it baffles us.
Revelations 20:15
ni stan of course they will believe by then but it will be too late. Their chance to exhibit their belief while alive on earth will be gone. Only then do they have the opportunity to have their names written in the book of life. That chance to have your name written in the book of life is ONLY available here on earth, now, not after all is revealed. Come on. Everybody in hell will believe then but just because they do and don't want to willfully be there doesn't mean they are allowed to leave. It's simple. Either you have your name in the book of life or you don't. If you don't you go to hell, forever. And your only chance you are given to have your name written in the book of life is here on earth before you die. Not after. Talk about coming up with your own gospel. Basically you have said that if you don't accept Jesus Christ as Savior now on earth before you die that you will have a second chance in the spiritual realm before the second death. So so twisted. Such lie from Satan!
GOD wants you to stop sinning and come clean with GOD and stop playing sin-confess games or perish!
amen
Anyone reading this can you please pray for my anger problem with my family
I will pray....fervently..
Praying bro :-)
Pray for patience, the first thing love is, is patient!!! Jesus bless you!
Falconjj
Father knows.
Falconjj repent y friend.... repent and ask for forgiveness. Repent from the bottom of your heart. Confess each episode in details to God. How it happened, how you felt. And ask for forgiveness. He will forgive you and you will seek for the Holy Spirit. When your life is filled by the Holy Spirit you will see the fruits of the Holy Spitting start to be real in your life... self-control, patience....
If you confess and repent. He will forgive you. Pray in repentance each very time you have an episode of anger and He will work on you. Jesus forgives, but He also says Go and sin no more... get into a journey to know the Holy Spirit! We pray for you!
Seems like folks only read the caption .. .. if we listen to what he is saying, he is speaking to the human tendency of wanting to erase hell.
this is an excellent point....thanx.....I am guilty of that......oops....
Great message. When I feel my faith slipping, or am unable to understand I go outside and look up.
The sun, the stars the planets and the endless space were all created by God. He is smarter than us by a long shot.
Imagine trying to explain electricity to your pets. They could never understand. They just don't have the capacity to.
Great video. I want to read that book. Yet, if there was no Hell, I would still love Him, fear Him, honour Him and delight in His beauty and truth. I would still care more about Him and what He says than about the world or my own desires alone. I would still learn and speak about Him to those who don´t know Him, and I would still choose Him knowing the cost it took Jesus and the consecuences it is taking me. Cause God it´s worth it all. Without Hell or with it.
Hannah Lucía agreed! He's more than enough
“Have you ever thought that maybe the creator’s since of judgment is more developed than yours?” Great argument.
Or perhaps a better statement "have you ever thought that maybe creators sense of love and mercy is more developed than yours"? Especially since the bible says mercy triumphs over judgement. The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in love.
@@craigweller3635 and yet people who have heard of his mercy and compassion still reject him.
I'm so glad that he's honest about this, instead of others who insist that they have all the answers and everything makes sense
Dubem but he isn’t being honest. He starts out by saying God spoke with him, telling him that he is like clay. My greatest wish is that religious people would JUST BE HONEST that they have never heard any voices speak to them. The Bible is not remarkable in any way. The language provides no profound thoughts that weren’t already in existence at the time it was written. Every revelation is always an “Ah Ha” in RETROSPECT. Never anything that provides valuable substance to change the world in a positive way.
Don Harris I've heard "words" in my being. And I was told to pray for things happening in real time I had no way of knowing. I have not published these statements for the public nor would I. But I know people do talk honestly when they say they have heard.
@@donharris8846 what are you on about? he said he was reading about it in Romans 9
Recommend reading Gerry Beauchemin, Thomas Talbott, Robin Parry and the like
Jesus makes me feel good, Satan steals and destroys, end of debate
Satan stole but again...Jesus took it back and returned to us. Our Redeemer lives.
This is the end of debate 😉
does having to let your beloved one go to eternal tourment feels good?
Live by faith, not by feelings
my teacher showed me this and i keep rewatching this, i just found francis chan and his sermons are so powerful ☺️
amen amen, they are! God Bless you
Chan is a deceiver, and following this pit viper will lead you to the lake of fire.
@@truthseekerKJV can you elaborate on this.
chan never said there is no hell.
Chan is a spineless pit viper who doubts the truth of God's word. If you can't see that, get yourself a guide dog.
Read lamentations 3:31-33......
" FOR NO ONE IS CAST OFF BY THE LORD FOREVER, though he brings grief.HE WILL SHOW COMPASSION. so great is his unfalling love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone"....(and yes that's from the bible)..booyah..to u eternal hell believers!!!..I can quote more too
Jesuss spoke of hell more than any other; He wanted to warn us.
He says gahenna in the greek which was an actual burning dump outside jerusalem where the people would go to sacrifice their children to god ... and he describes it as a place of torment and gnashing of teeth..youre blind my friend.. god is good.. only good.. his ways are truly better.. do your own research stop being shrouded by fear
Quit parsing out ; its not a cafeteria rev 20- 21...lake of fire. Jesus warned more about hell than anything not wishing we d go there.. Reference: Watchman Bagpipes..avoid heretics! Get smart!
it was a literal reference to a burning garbage dump. Literal fire 24/7. That's why He cited it so you d know there is punishment by fire next time..not flood over cosmos. You 're the one who is adding things not in that scripture. It's not about babies, sport.
It's not just love either He has righteous anger and is being patient. How do you twist "God chastens His own"? That is punishment. Read the whole book He s the same yesterday today and tomorrow.wrath included.
@@jackiepowell7513 you are "assuming" Jesus used Gehenna as a reference to "eternal punishment". Nothing in His words show that He was referring to "Hell". Typical christiandom spiritualizing the literal text.
Just read the scriptures and BELIEVE IT... Stop denying things that are hard for you to handle, Stop creating doctrines to make things more acceptable to the thinking of Men. Faith is what men neeed in God. His will be done.. And it SHALL.
"His will be done.. And it SHALL" - AdstarAPAD
According to scripture, it is Gods WILL that ALL men are to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, Do you still believe Gods WILL will be done? You should!
"3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."1Tim 2:4
You do not quote a verse in isolation and disregard all other scriptures. The scriptures you quote are simply saying that Gods will is to accept all men to be repent and be saved... BUT the scriptures reveal that NOT all men will accept the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus Not all will believe Him, You cannot create some universal doctrine of demons in one verse isolated and misinterpreted.
AdstarAPAD You are now contradicting yourself! You stated:
"His will be done.. And it SHALL" - AdstarAPAD
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who WILL HAVE *ALL MEN* to be *SAVED* and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, *WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL*, to be *testified* in due time" (1 Tim 2:3-6).
1 John 4:14 tells us that the Father sent the Son to be Savior of the *WORLD*!
John 3:35 tells us that the Father has given *ALL* into Jesus’ hands.
"*THIS IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER* Who sent Me, that of *ALL* He has given Me, I should lose *NOTHING*, but raise it up at the last day." (John 6:39)
CAN YOU CONNECT THE DOTS?
OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MANS WILL > GODS WILL?
Nope. I am saying Gods will shall be done i agree that His will if for men to avoid sin but. We know that men sin. Therefore His will in this is His desire not His will as in He has caused it to be. Gods will that all men repent and come to the salvation of Jesus is His desire for all men but he does not enforce it. But Gods will as revealed in the Bible about casting those not written in the Lambs book of life into the Lake of Fire is a definite prophesised outcome. It SHALL be done. Therefore universalism is a lie a false doctrine because it denies the clear revelation in scripture of what will occur.
AdstarAPAD Your twisting scripture. It says,
"GOD WILLS ALL MEN BE SAVED', NOT AVOID SIN!
i BELIEVED IN HELL FOR OVER 20 YEARS UNTIL I DISCOVERED IT WAS A COMPLETE LIE!
You have been deceived into thinking that God has left the fate of man up to man, which is completely false. In order for the medieval church to pull this deception off, they had to make a few changes to scripture.
For example, they changed the word "Drag" to "draw" in John 6:44
John 6:44 (NIV)
44 "For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAGS (Helko) them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up"
Look it up! The Greek word is helkó (ST 1670)
Definition: DRAG
It is the same word used to describe the Apostles pulling up the net full of fish, and Paul being dragged off to jail. It would be too difficult to frighten and control people with a mythical hell, or perpetrate a myth of mans free will being capable of overriding Gods Will, if God is DRAGGING people to Salvation!
Also, For the first 500 years of Christs Church, Believers taught that Jesus saves ALL and that the Lake of Fire and Brimstone was for purification, and that ALL were going to be salted with this fire!
When you read about Fire, read *ALL* of it! Here is your unquenchable fire in Mark 9:46:
[46]c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’d
49 *EVERYONE* will be salted with *FIRE*.
The Bible says that this fire will will purify us!
"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire"
I HAVE NEVER HEARD THE CHURCH SAYING THAT *EVERYONE* WILL BE SALTED AND PURIFIED IN THIS UNQUENCHABLE FIRE!
HAVE YOU?
I love the irony of all the posts that condemn the doctrine of hell, because they all have to admit one thing: "Hell is an EVIL belief, and that makes God IMMORAL!" Evil and immoral? Based on what standard of good and morality? Yours??
The fact is, this argument against hell is precisely the justification for its existence. It is something that we detest so heavily, that we are willing to avoid even thinking about it at all costs, as it exists as a demonstration of how far God will go to illustrate our hatred and avoidance of him. He creates hell and asks the simple question, "Would you rather be with me, or face an existence without me? I am love, light, and goodness, and hell is without any of those things". In the end, millions will choose hell over God. It's not at all inconceivable if you understand the type of malice people associate with Christ.
Great. Please teach me about this Hell! I have my NASB! Lets start with the OT! Where is Hell mentioned in the OT, cuz I only count zero times!
One reason not to believe in the traditional idea of eternal hell is the bible itself. God said if you sin you will die, but he didn't say if you sin you will be tortured for eternity. God also created a system of justice in the old testament and unlike pagan culture and the pagan influenced church the system did not include lengthy prison times and torture. people believe torture is wrong largely because that is the impression we get about it from the bible.
Oneskeptical Guy, I can't give you an exact number, but it may be mentioned several times in the OT in the Psalms as Sheol, or one of it's translations, which is a Hebrew word meaning "the pit" or "grave" or "the place of the dead". Psalm 16:10 "For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, or let your Holy One see corruption" Psalm 30:3 "O Lord, You have brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit." Psalm 88 has a few references as well. I didn't mention several in between those and there are more. Also, it's mentioned in other OT books like Isaiah, where in verse 14:15 it says " Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.". There are more references like that throughout the OT. Also, Job mentions it too. Job 24:19 "Drought and heat consume the snow waters, So does Sheol those who have sinned.", and Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up." There's a lot more than that too. Just Google it. I'm not sure which OT you've been reading. Sheol sounds a lot like Hell to me.
You cite,
Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up."
Yeah, when you die, you dont come back alive to earth!
The pit? Yeah, the grave is really just a pit! No flames, no demons pulling your flesh apart, no devil with a pitch fork! Just a pit for your coffin!
According to Ecc 9:10
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead (Sheol), where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom"
That's not hell is it! The King James used to have the word hell for Sheol in the OT, but the modern bible corrected it, and removed the word and concept of hell from our OT translations! The NIV,NASB,ESV,ect...
No hell mentioned anywhere in the OT!
And no where in the NT, once you study it carefully!
What about the Lake of Fire in Revelation? Or the place where Jesus talks about the rich man being tormented in? What about Mark 9:43-48 which cites Isaiah 66:24. Does "Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." sound the same as something you'd find in a cemetery? I haven't heard of immortal worms and fire 6 feet under.
I'm glad to say that this view is right down the middle in regards to what scripture declares.EPH 4:21 We need to hear and declare it.
There is no eternal, conscious torment in some sort of "hell." Here are verses showing the wicked will be destroyed and will not "be" anymore:
"For yet a little while, and *_the wicked shall not be:_* yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10).
"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that *_they shall be destroyed for ever"_* (Psalms 92:7).
"The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but *_destruction_* shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29).
"As the whirlwind passeth, *_so is the wicked no more:_* but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25).
"Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet *_he shall perish for ever_* like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7).
Even Satan will be destroyed:
"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; *_therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee._* All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and *_never shalt thou be any more"_* (Ezekiel 28:17-19).
The apostle Paul wrote, "For *_the wages of sin is death;_* but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). Yes, the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in some sort of burning hellfire. We either perish through death, or we receive the gift of eternal life: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not *_perish,_* but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Those are the two alternatives; we perish in death, or else we receive the gift of eternal life. You either receive eternal life as a gift from God, or you perish: you cease to exist because you haven't received eternal life.
*************************
Salvation is not about *_where_* you'll spend eternity. You won't even *_have_* an eternity - of any sort, anywhere - unless God chooses to give you the gift of eternal life!!! Otherwise, you'll perish in death.
The "immortal soul" is a lie passed down from pagan religion. *_If we were immortal, God would not need to give us eternal life._* And remember, God put the first couple out of the Garden so they would NOT eat of the tree of life and so live forever. Apparently they did not have immortality. We still DO NOT have immortality.
Take away the "immortal soul" error and there is no longer need to "explain" where the immortal soul spends eternity!
*************************
For anyone reading this who is undecided about the meaning of "hell" I recommend using a Bible search tool to find all the New Testament uses of "hell" and see what Greek word "hell" was translated from. You'll discover that "hell" in the KJV NT appears 23 times and was translated from three different original Greek words, ( _geenna, hades_ and _tartaroo_ ) each of which has a different meaning! That's where a lot of today's confusion begins! Look into it! You'll find that later versions of the Bible actually corrected some of the KJV errors in this regard, for example, correctly translating the Greek _hades_ as the "grave" instead of "hell." Young's Literal Translation (YLT) does not even use the word "hell". It translates the Greek _hades_ as "grave," and translates the Greek _geena_ as "gehenna." The Greek _geena_ referred to the dump just southeast of Jerusalem, where fire and maggots destroyed city's refuse. Jesus likened the ultimate fate of the wicked to being thrown into Jerusalem's dump, into "gehenna fire," for destruction.
ps: check my YT channel for a video _Hell and the Immortal Soul_ explaining this in detail
The Bible Says well said!!
Brian, thank you!
Interesting.
Jesus did not come to make bad people good, but Jesus came to make dead people live. Jesus went through hell so we don't have to go hell. How much more does the Lord need to do to save us? God cannot force us to be in His presence.
SuperCal well said..."dead people live"
Come on guys, let's die to the flesh! Let's put our trust in the Lord. Just imagine how it will feel when the Lord says, Come, be blessed.
Yeah. Let us all become monks or nuns.
We have followed the progress of the fruit Francis and Lisa Chan has produced in his ministry as we have watched the ministry of many others in our 50 yrs of service to the Kingdom. We have prayed for the restoration of the first works in the church of Christ, no not the divided denominations or some theologian's dream or man's eloquence and wisdom but God's own Powerful Spirit.
Why did Jesus's die ? He died for this very reason so you can live -
Hell is still real no matter what you believe. And God will send people there no matter what you think that he would never do that. But he can and he will.
God does not sent people to hell, we send our self to hell
evangelicals always with their "no matter what you believe" - LOOK! there's still no armageddon, no antichrist and they've been saying that for years. Fucking bullshit motherfuckers.
Two distinct covenants...the Bible can be wielded “by the letter” as a ministry of death and condemnation or “by the Spirit” as a ministry of Life (2 Cor 3:6-11). The Lake of Fire if interpreted through Malachi by the Spirit could be understood as a Refiner’s Fire (Mal 3:2)...for our God is a Consuming Fire (Heb 12:29). Likewise, death and hell are consumed in that Fire (Rev 20:14). For behold, I hold the keys to death and hell (Rev 1:18)!
God’s Lovingkindness endures forever (Ps 136)! God is gentle, patient, and kind (Gal 5:22). The doctrine of Eternal Torment is not at all in alignment with the fruit of the Spirit, of God’s Kind and Loving Nature. So too Jesus clearly rebuked the sons of thunder for suggesting calling down fire upon those who had rejected him, saying, “You know not what spirit you are of. For the son of man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them” (Luke 9:55-56)!
And while annihilation obviously is a step in the right direction towards God’s Love and Mercy, it too fails to take into full consideration “the mystery of God’s will revealed” in His plan of many ages, which is “the summing up of ALL THINGS in Christ” (Eph 1:10).
In Adam all die, in Christ all shall be made alive (Rom 5:18). For Jesus is the “propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for those of THE WHOLE WORLD” (1 John 2:2). What Jesus did, was done for all. Such is the difference between the type and shadow of the Passover Lamb and that of the Day of Atonement Scapegoat, carrying away the sins of the entire nation.
Like with the Emancipation Proclamation, LEGALLY all slaves in the Confederate slaveholding states were set free. But the following day folks were still in bondage. So too with the cross. Thus God’s Royal Priesthood has a mission to see all in bondage set free. For this is God’s will that “all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4).
Faith is defined as the substance of things HOPED FOR (Heb 11:1). Thus, unless our hearts wish to anchor hope in eternal torment or annihilation for others, then by definition these doctrines are NOT statements of faith. All the while, we’ve already been instructed what God desires (1 Tim 2:4).
When reading the Bible, we can wear LENSES OF CONDEMNATION or we can wear LENSES OF LOVE. Two distinct covenants...”for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives Life.” Thus He has “made us ministers of a NEW COVENANT, not of the letter, but of the Spirit” (2 Cor 3:6)! Thus we must be careful how we read and wield the Word!
Ben, I love this!
I have total empathy for what you are saying. I even covered many of these topics when I led bible study for Campus Crusade for Christ in college as an evangelical Christian. But when I really look at what the bible has to say about supporting slavery, endorsing genocide, views on women, eternal damnation, stoning homosexuals to death etc, I find it morally lacking. To me it is so glaring no amount of faith can overcome my inner moral compass that rails against the god of the bible.
"Putting God's action in submission to your reasoning". Preach!
1 Tim 2:3-6 , kjv says it good!
Hell is very true, but it is not eternal torment, but "eternal destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
Seeker of All Truth no it’s actually eternal torment unless you had a double meaning behind what you was saying.
4:05 - Yes, Francis Chan, I have considered that God's sense of justice is more developed than mine. .... Which really makes the case for eternal torment seem even more lacking.
7:33 - Convenient where he left off the part about the lake of fire being called the second DEATH (not eternal torture chamber).
It's good that Chan puts forth the Bible and says all he can do is present what's there. .... Well? That's the very reason I stopped believing in eternal torment - I don't see a good case for it presented in the Bible once I was able to read it without the lens of tradition that says eternal torment in place of everywhere it says death and destruction and perish and consumed. You have to read too much into and straight up add clauses and modifiers to too many verses and passages in order to make it sound like the Bible teaches eternal torment and the immortal, eternal human soul.
Exactly.How could our God of love be happy with saved people and whole Universe,if somewhere in a Space would be people torturing and burning forever and ever?No way.
@@slavensmolcic
Orthodox Christianity doesn't teach eternal suffering as dogma. It's notion came from the apostolic church
@@slavensmolcic that's what the Bible says
Well then, let's keep it simple for you then. If someone chooses not to accept God, where will they spend eternity? I'm waiting....... Don't forget, God isn't going to be there.
Love you man. Great stuff Francis
Enamored with "Hell" but which hell? Gehenna or Sheol? Encouraging an attitude of separation based on adherence to doctrine instead of encouraging obedience to the Lord of Love who gave a commandment no "Christian" I have met in the last year can recall for me. They can tell me why people will be tortured for eternity, not knowing that eternity was a bad translation of "aeonian." They relish watching others being tortured "forever" as "just" punishment for temporal sins. Contradictions abound, but love is missing.
So true!
I appreciate your comment.
However...
Temporal sins? And just what is that?
How about; sins against an *eternal* God?
Revelation 20:14 " And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
What about the lake of fire, which is of a lake of fire and brimstone?
I understand where you're coming from, but imo instead of contradictions abound, I think you have to do a pretty good job of dancing around and avoiding what is very clear scripture.
Did you read the story Jesus told?
An exert:
Luke 16:23-26 ESV
"and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house 28 for I have five brothers-so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
God is Love, but he is also a number of other characteristics, namely, that he is *perfectly* righteous and just
Psalm 89:14 "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you."
God's unimaginable love is shown in his grace in abbudance towards us as sinners, his mercy by both allowing us to continue living in this world without instant judgement, and sending His only begotten and perfect Son, to humble himself to this level and be totured and mudered and take on the entire punishment for the sins of the whole world, and then offer us forgvieness through this as a free gift.
Not only that, but part of that free gift of love and grace is that he will put his Holy Spirit in you in this world so you can walk with him, and you will be given eternal life to dwell in his presence of perfect joy, love, peace and holiness forever, and he will show you for an eternity all the things about him.
1 Corintheans 2:9 " But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”-"
Yes, God *is* love and kindness and mercy and grace, and he is so on the level of a perfect eternal God.
However, you cannot just pick and select the parts that make sense to you, and choose only what you like. He is also a perfectly just, righteous, *holy* God.
All of this was displayed on the cross.
That is why God's grace is so profound, because once you understand what those who transgress against such a Holy God deserve, Jesus becomes the most beautiful thing you can imagine.
Not enamored with Hell, but God's word. Why did Jesus come to earth? Out of love, but to save people from Hell. I don't "relish" anyone being punished, but want to share how to escape it. Love is not missing. An indescribable Love send Jesus for us all to escape Hell. That's the ultimate Love.
No Tim, that isn't the reason for the Incarnation. That is a "gospel" of "personal fire insurance".
If you read the words of Jesus in the gospels, it will become very clear to you that rescuing people from hell was the precise reason for the incarnation. You may characterize that as 'personal fire insurance', but the words of Jesus himself cannot be denied. Do you take Jesus seriously? Will you read and digest his words?
"we can't afford to be wrong on this issue" - argument based on fear. maybe we can't afford to lose the manipulative power that the concept of hell affords us over lay people.
I would totally agree with you if we could actually avoid going to Hell by doing good. But, fortunately we can't.
I would suggest to first honestly and objectively ask myself WHY i believe that what i believe .
Amen
That's a risky stand to take
How can you erase hell from the Bible????
After all that is all about the good news=Gospel=Ευαγγέλιο. We can escape hell only through Jesus. If there is no hell there is no need fow Salvation!!!
A: How can you erase hell from the Bible?-Don26gr
B: Easy, it should never have been in the Bible in the first place!
This argument irritates me more than any of the other ones. The people who throw this out there don't understand all are going to be saved BECAUSE of Christ, not despite Him. If anything, Eternal torment teaches that Christ died in vain. According to that ideaology, even though Jesus died for all, only about 5% are saved by His act. They have made Him out to be an utter failure! they are also upset because if Jesus saves all then that means that they did nothing to deserve their salvation!
Oneskeptical Guy
That is the good news= Ευαγγέλιο. Salvation and escape from hell and eternal tornment thanks to Jesus. Only God knows the stats. Do you know better and say 5%? Of course we don't deserve our Salvation. Its only His Grace that brought our Salvation.
(I wonder what Bible you read?? You sound to me like Jehova's witnesses...)
"If there is no hell there is no need fow Salvation!!!"
No you are starting to get it.
don26gr
Gee, I dont think you thought your hell doctrine through and just swallowed it whole! At its core, you believe that Jesus saves us from his Dads wrath! Thats a slap in the face to God! Since less than 10% of the world is Christian (Forgetting the fact that those Christians represent 33,000 different Christian denominations, each sending those who believe differently, to Hell) you have 90% of ALL mankind going into eternal torture. That's not good news! In fact that means Jesus failed to do his fathers WILL that ALL mankind be saved!
Oneskeptical Guy I'm an agnostic atheist, I think you mistook my meaning completely, I was being tongue in cheek, there is no hell and there is no Jesus to save you, it's all BS.
Just ordered his book, love Francis Chan’s teaching ✝️♥️🙏🏾
Recommend checking out 'Hope Beyond Hell' by Gerry Beauchemin
When I say "God wouldn't do this, would he?", I'm not questioning God. I'm questioning the standard human interpretation of how God behaves. There is the standard interpretation about the Hell and eternity. But that's no more or less a human interpretation than some other interpretation. And when I question that interpretation, it's pretty arrogant to claim that your interpretation is immutably the same thing as God's intention.
God's ways *are* above my ways. But they're also above your ways. And just because *you* say that this is how to interpret God's word does not mean that's necessarily God's intention. Please consider the possibility that Isaiah 55 applies to your own view of God's intentions as well.
Yes I was thinking the same thing. By what standard is his interpretation better than another. Really all he has to fall back on is tradition and the fear that most denominations will reject his interpretation if he doesn't fall in line. The traditional teaching of hell and the immortality of the soul is largely inspired by paganism. The Bible clearly teaches the gift of God is eternal life through Christ. Not that everyone automatically has eternal life either good or bad.
What in the world are you saying? Bible interpretation is very basic and scientific. There is one standard of interpretation...that's it. Anything else would be based on our own personal biases and experiences. Context, word study, et etc. Where do we get this crazy idea that there should be multiple ways to interpret? There is a right way to interpret and a wrong way to interpret. Any author has one specific idea in mind when he writes. Find out what God intended to say..that's the point.
While Bible teaches that there is hell it does not teach eternal hell. When Bible says in Hebrews, 'eternal judgment' it does not mean 'eternally judging' but being judged once and consequences are eternal. When Bible in Hebrews says 'eternal salvation' it does not mean that Jesus dies multiple times but He died once for all of us and consequences are eternal. When Jesus says, 'eternal punishment' once again the punishment is once and consequences are eternal. In 1 Tim. 6 we find that only God is immortal. What does that say about us? That we are mortal and therefore there is no eternal punishment. So, if we ask what does it mean being tormented for ever and ever as it says number of times in Revelation? Is there anywhere in the Bible where expression 'forever and ever' does not mean 'eternal'. Yes there are number of places in the OT. When Anna dedicated Samuel he was given to serve in the temple 'for ever and ever' (1 Sam. 1). When servants in ancient Jewish household decided on the day of Jubilee to remain in the household of their masters instead of being set as free, they were to stay in that household 'for ever and ever'. What does 'forever and ever' mean in both cases? Not eternally but as long as they live. When God through prophet Isaiah prophesied about destruction of the nation of Edom, He said that the 'night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever and ever'. If you go anywhere in Middle East today you will not find smoke of Edom going eternally. The same language used in the book of Revelation is also used in Isaiah 34:10. If smoke of Edom is not rising now in Middle East but we know that Edom has been destroyed where consequences of destruction are eternal than it speaks about limited time of torment and not eternal torment of hell. It really all depends if one believes in immortality of soul. If God is only immortal and we are not than issue is resolved. When God said to Adam and Eve, 'if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will die' what did He really mean? That they will not really die? In fact, the serpent says, 'you will not really die'. So who do we believe? This one however is a most important for me. Once the reign of sin is over and we as God's people are in God's glorious kingdom, what is really going to be a deterrent against future rebellion? Cross or hell. If eternal hell exists it will always muddle the right motive for the loving obedience to loving God. This is a huge problem for me and it should be for everyone. Are we going to be motivated by fear of by love in God's glorious kingdom?
If Hell is not eternal, is Heaven?
Dimains No,it is not.Revelation says that we will only stay in heaven for 1000 years.After that,we will be put on a new version of Earth for eternity.
@@thethingthatwouldnotgoaway5881 Where does it day that?
AMEN!!!! 2nd Samuel 22:31- As for God, His way is perfect...Numbers 23:19- God is not a man that He should lie... the truth of hell has nothing to do with what we think or say. God’s Word has already given us all we need to know about the subject.
For those attempting to deny the eternality of hell (and therefore, call God a liar in the process) can you somehow explain to me what it be like to "not exist" anymore? That's like trying to contemplate what nothingness is: it can't be done because even a blank vacuum is something. So, it's virtually impossible to not exist because once God creates you, your invisible soul becomes immortal. Now, chew on this: God first appeared to Moses in the form of literally burning bush that was not consumed by the fire. If God can create that miracle then God can also create a Lake of Fire that does not consume it's adversaries, too. Do not be deceived; hell is more terrifying than one could even begin to imagine because unlike our universe, it's not constricted by a time-space continuum. Therefore repent and believe on Jesus Christ as your only hope for salvation from the wrath of God.
Hell is a pagan myth! Here is something for you to chew on!
The Egyptian religions revealed to the world that all the judged wicked will be cast into a Lake Of Fire, 4500 years before it was ever a written in the Book Of Revelation as God's revelation ot the world!
Please explain how that is possible...
Oneskeptical Guy ... Interesting that you mention this and I'll admit, I didn't want to believe this at first. However, regardless of how "accurate" this accusation of yours is, it is also quite interesting that the Egyptian culture, too, fully acknowledged that the wicked must be judged, is it not? Therefore, even if what you say is true, that does not constitute this to be nothing more than a "pagan myth" and even more so it supports the sound biblical doctrine of "seek justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God [Micah 6:8]." Yet, let's make this a bit more personal for you: do you believe that pedophiles, rapists, murderers, and the like should receive justice or mercy for their sins against God???
The indisputable fact is that while the Pagans believed in hell, for the first 4500 years of the Hebrews, and then the first 500 years of Christianity, they believed the scriptures spoke of universal salvation with the coming Messiah.
So who sins against God, and receives mercy?
"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32
The question then is, does every one repent?
"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5:13
Hundreds of buried scriptures testify That All will be saved!
Can't ask that question..they haven't thought that far yet..they just want to believe there is no hell.
Jamel Salter
Or maybe they studied the Bible more carefully than you! My NASB does not have the word hell in it if I read the margin reference notes!
If you did, you will begin to understand that much of what the church teaches is simply kiddie sunday school religion, and has no real basis in fact!
God wants humans to love Him for who He is Not fore what He can do to them. What would you say if a child of 30 years old said he only obeyed his parents out of fear of them taking away the car. If it wasn't for the car he didn't care. That's what Hell do for a lot of people, if it wasn't for hell they wouldn't care to obey. Real love if to love someone with no strings attached. That's what God does and that's what God wants us to do. If we can do that God will give us eternal life. If we can't we will not see life period not tournament for ever.
Thanks for the good analogy, at the end it should be torment not tournament.. just letting you know..blessings
That sounds good and dandy, but your emotional view of hell does nothing to change the truth. How about you take a look at what is really there? We all have feelings and we all have what we HOPE is the truth but that doesn't make it the truth. The gospel according to "only1gumpy" doesn't really hold weight....what does God say about it??
you don't understand the gospel:People don't go to heaven because of obedience, and people don't go to hell for disobedience. " Real love is to love someone with no strings attached" , that statement is completely false. In fact its the total opposite....we require MORE from those we love vs.strangers. Just think about it....if a stranger lets you down, you may be irritated or angry but you get over it easy enough, but have your spouse cheat on you! You have more responsibility to those you love, not less.
When discussing "hell," like so may other biblical topics, it is important to go back to scripture in the original language.
Some thing will always be lost in any translation. Unfortunately, most of those who have translated the bible into English were not even trying to be accurate in cases where an accurate translation could challenge the accepted doctrines of their church. They often presuppose a doctrine and then try to twist scripture to fit it. This is unfortunately especially true of the more modern, dynamic equivalence versions like the NIV. Almost every English language bible contains a huge an unjustifiable bias in favor of eternal damnation. The one exception with which I am familiar is Young's Literal Translation.
The bible itself never talks about eternal damnation. It does not use words for eternal or forever at all. The terms it does use (Olam in Hebrew or Aion in Greek) refer to a finite although indefinitely very long period of time. The bible never says "forever and ever" but rather "unto the ages of the ages." In the old testament it does not say that the law should be kept forever either, but only until the end of the age. The proper translation looks forward to the messianic era when there will be a new covenant.
"Eternal punishment" does not mean punishment that lasts forever. It means punishment that occurs in the age to come, once Jesus has returned to Earth.
Most of the references to "hell" are actually about Sheol or Hades. Those would probably be better rendered as "the grave," as their plain meaning is simply the ground in which dead bodies are buried. Hades literally means "the Unseen" as was commonly used by the ancient Greeks to refer not only to the abode of the dead but also to underground places like gold mines and the dirt where seeds were planted. The author of Ecclesiastes makes it pretty clear that those in Sheol are not conscious. Neither term has any positive or negative connotation in relation to the righteousness or sinfulness of the person buried there. The bible makes it clear that even great men like King David are still in Hades waiting for the Bodily Resurrection in the last days.
When Jesus spoke of Gehenna, he pretty clearly meant to refer to the city of Jerusalem's garbage dump in the very real physical location of the Valley of Hinnom. This is where all sorts of useless refuse were incinerated, including the dead bodies of animals and of humans who had committed crimes so heinous that they did not deserve a respectful burial. (The site had previously been used to burn human children alive as sacrifices to Moloch, a sin which God most strongly condemned. God proclaimed that it would never enter his mind that such anything like that should ever be done.)
The same terms used for "hell" are used for Sodom and Gomorrah, which are no longer on fire.
The very next chapter after the "tormented day and night forever and ever" explains that not long after that point in the future there will no longer be any night, as all old things shall pass away and God himself will be the light for the new earth. The things described in Revelation chapter 20 cannot last forever, as they no long exist in Revelation Chapter 21.
The Arguments for Eternal Damnation are far weaker in my view than the arguments for Universal Reconciliation. I do not consider either doctrine correct, however. Keeping with the principle of parsimony, the simplest doctrine that aligns with the words of scripture is Conditional Immortality.
The soul is never described as immortal in the bible. In fact, the epistles to Timothy say that only God is Immortal. Immortality is often described as a gift to those who remain in Christ, not as a natural state of the soul. It is a very evil false doctrine to teach that human souls are immortal and all that matters is where they spend eternity.
Everything that exists depends on God for its sustenance. A human can only live forever so long as he remains in Christ. Without his grace, we would simply cease to exist.
"The things described in Revelation chapter 20 cannot last forever, as they no long exist in Revelation Chapter 21"
Yet it still exists in chapter 22!
i agree with your complete statement, just not your conclusion.
Lets start with Gehenna! Who did Jesus threatened with Gehenna? ONLY His disciples and the Pharisees! Not once did he ever threaten any unbelievers with Gehenna! in fact he made it a point to move away from the crowds when discussing Gehenna!
You are correct, Gehenna was where children were burnt up alive to the pagan god Moleck! God said:
"They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded-- *nor did it enter my mind that they should do such a detestable thing* and so make Judah sin.
Are we to now believe that God changed his mind and now believes burning people up is constantly on his mind and he no longer considers it detestable?
You cite revelation. why dont we start here:
Rev 5:13
"Then I heard *EVERY* creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and *all that is in them*, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
OK, so which of those creatures that are giving praise, honor, glory, and power to God and the Lamb *With ALL that is IN them*, is being put to eternal death?
opengates777 Eternal separation from God's presence.
opengates777
Hey open, run your translation and interpretation of Hebrew scriptures by Hebrew scholars, and they will show you just how much your church has butchered their Holy scriptures!
Your so far off base, its not even funny!
The Hebrews already translated for us open! They continue to insist for the last 1500 years that their manuscripts have no scripture verses that mention any eternal torment in hell! While your OT Bible is riddled with the word hell as a place of eternal torment!
Either the Hebrews meticulously preserved Gods word for 6000 years without error, or they didnt, and your 1600AD Bible somehow did!
Which is it open?
They did not interpret "doom" to be eternal; torment in a hell! To this day they still believe that ultimately all will be saved!
every word you speak lifts up his name.... you punch religious people in stomach. keep the faith brother.
I think that we can thank God that we are not responsible for judging who goes to hell & who goes to heaven. We can just let go of that & let a just & loving Father be in charge of that. I know that many people are experiencing Hell in this life because they don't know the One Who came to give Life. I'm amazed that the religious folks love to hold the threat of hell over the lost & smugly proclaim that they are going to heaven. Really? Is that the will of Yeshua? Shalom
***** 3 heavens and hell? Huh?
Heaven and hell are non-issues. what matters is living each day on this planet with love and respect for their fellow man. Shalom
There's no such thing as a poor opinion. Your arrogance in judging others opinions is appalling. If you can't respect others opinions you should quit badgering others.
Johanon Zimmerman I agree with you. Francis's point was we're supposed to be humble, not arrogant. It's not our place to judge- it's God's. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
gymnastgirlflips
1Cor.2 says that the spiritual man judges ALL things but he himself is subject to judgment by no man. Without judgment (discernment & not condemnation) we might end up drinking the poison kool-aid. We are not called to condemn or point the finger at those we think deserve to go to hell.
If I'm not qualified to judge whether or not a god's actions as described in a text are evil or not, how can I know whether I'm submitting to an evil being? If my moral compass is broken, I have no way of discerning good from evil and I might be committing to an evil being. Have I missed something?
Excellent point! However, this is an argument based on reason. So it likely won't stand up here...
Our moral compass is broken from the start. Only the holy spirit can fix that and it's a process. We have to accept the fact that we are broken by sin and controlled by wickedness without him. It's a hard truth to swallow but you have to humble yourself before him. Think about it, he's the one who gave us life and everything that comes with it, he owes us nothing but gave us everything. You are qualified to judge your own actions based on your conscience and if we're all being honest we are in desperate need of a savior which is why Jesus became that for us. Judge your life based on the law of the 10 commandments, see how many you've broken and then realize that Jesus paid the fine for our transgressions and our crimes committed against him. Remember Jesus said "If anyone looks at a woman with lust, he has committed adultery with her in his heart" And that "If anyone hates his brother he has committed murder in his heart. We're all guilty, there is not one who hasn't broken the law, but that's why Jesus paid our fine with his precious, perfect, pure blood.
Kyle Burton Can we know whether god is good or not? When I read the Bible about things he is purported to have said, I think his acts are not moral. For example, sending a bear to maul 40 children who were teasing his prophet seems immoral. If a person did that, he would be thrown in jail for a long time.
Imagine if there was a human leader who did some things that people thought were good, but who also did many things that people believe were immoral and one of the followers of this leader told you, that you just don't have the capacity to understand morality in the same way the leader does. Just put your trust in him and he'll steer you in the right direction. If what he tells you seems immoral, go along with it anyhow because he's smarter than you.
Would you follow a leader like that?
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." You have to understand that gods justice and his ways are higher than ours. He's proven his love for us time and time again, what we see as unfair from our perspective is more than fair once you realize the true nature of things. God has only ever shown his wrath against extremely wicked people who have no intentions of changing their ways. God is not Human, he created humans...he knows us better than we know ourselves. We can definitely know that god is good because he's given us so many second chances, if it was a human being in that position we would be long gone by now without a doubt. He's taken the time to give us a chance and to guide us...and that cost him more pain than we can understand, he is the definition of selfless. All that you understand to be good in this life are from god. He is the completeness of love, mercy, kindness, justice, patience, compassion, courage, selflessness, hope, and faith. These are not human characteristics. Because of the choice we made we are prone to hate, jealousy, greed, violence, deception, lust, pride, fear, pain, sorrow, etc... I know it's hard to hear and harder to believe that since it's just me telling you. The beautiful thing is he made it possible for us to really, truthfully, tangibly get to know him if we so choose to. When you lay down your weapons the first thing you become aware of is how holy and perfect god is, the second is how imperfect and broken you are. You realize the weight of your sin because you can now see it through a new set of eyes. Pray on it, read the bible. God encourages us to test our faith so it's not a bad thing that you're asking these questions! Don't judge God by other Christians, we are imperfect but the difference is we aren't running to sin, we're running away from sin to god. Every day he makes me a better person but I am far from perfect and no better than anyone else, its hard to explain unless you know him and you walk with him
Kyle Burton are you familiar with the Euthyphro dilemma? Plato told a story of a conversation between his teacher Socrates and Euthyphro. Socrates asked Euthyphro how he could know what is good/just/moral. Euthyphro answered, 'morality is what god commands.' Socrates asked him, is morality determined by god's commands, or does god give the commands that he gives because they are moral?
Do you understand the distinction being drawn by this question? The point question is, for example, could the act of smashing babies against rocks be moral if Yahweh says it is moral?
The whole discussion about God's way not being ours is great, but he turns it completely upside down in an effort to support his own viewpoint. The fundamental question that Chan seems to gloss right over is, "What is more like God, and therefore, more unlike humanity? An insatiable need to enact a code of justice or an unending ability to show mercy? Which one sounds more like humanity and which one sounds more like God?" He presumes that a "higher way," a more Godlike way, is to send people to eternal damnation. I don't agree -- that sounds like most humans I know, who desire their pound of flesh, who desire to enact justice even when they have been shown mercy.
rtneace, good words Ryan Thomas. ;o)
You say, "What is more like God, and therefore, more unlike humanity? An insatiable need to enact a code of justice or an unending ability to show mercy? :. Answer : BOTH, equally. Hence the cross where we see both justice and love displayed. The doctrine of hell Is the Biblical idea that people who don't want to love and worship God , submit their will to his can continue to do so. Why would a loving God force you to be in His presence for eternity when you don't want to?
God, forgive me of my pride and arrogance. Help my unbelief.
The word gospel means "good news". But according to Mr. Chan, this good news he brings is not good news at all.
+SwordofManticorE Actually it is good news for the people who love peace and have compassion for every human being not just people who look and think like them. The good news is that all the innocent victims of sin, and violence will come back to life in a world that is free of evil, and they will live forever in that perfect world. Hitler's victims for example, the ones who lived a life of love will come back to life in a world free of violence and torture and death. After God destroys evil people in hell there will be no more reason to fear sudden death through violence, diseases, natural disasters, famines, poverty etc.. Every single person on planet earth then will be able to enjoy peace, love and happiness forever. That is in fact good news, the kind that humanity cannot get from anywhere else, not even science. No one else has the power to destroy all evil and guarantee peace and safety for every living human, and animal on planet earth except the one and only loving, merciful, compassionate, faithful, all powerful and eternal God of the universe. Hell the only permanent solution for the problem of evil in the world. We can all agree that powerful military weapons, well trained armies and police forces have not succeeded in providing peace and safety for every one all the time. These systems are made up of human beings. They can never predict where violence will erupt next. By the time they become aware, many innocent people have died. And unless there is a God who can restore these people back to life, some great injustice has happened to them and no human can fix it. Certainly capturing murderers and putting them in jail never restores the lives that are taken. Praise God for the Good News! Life does not end at death for the people who believe in the living God.
+Lea Leandre I get it now. Your good news is God telling us to repent and worship Him so He can save us from where He will send us if we don't. Gotcha!
+SwordofManticorE Indeed that is the good news. People don't have to suffer eternal death if they repent of their sins and do good to one another instead of evil. That is all God wants. For all of us to live freely on a planet where there is no evil. indeed if you choose evil and refuse to repent, He will destroy you because if He doesn't you will continue to be a danger to the health and happiness of all the people who want to live in peace with one another. I can't think of any solution with more fairness. Obviously human wisdom has not come up with a cure for evil. That is why so much suffering as a result of violence and human depravity exist on planet earth still today. Only God has the cure and He will not force it on anyone. The people who choose the cure will live forever, and all the people who refuse the cure will suffer eternal death. It's a very simple, effective and permanent solution to problems of death, violence and suffering on planet earth. Praise God indeed!
+Lea Leandre Do you not know that what you just wrote puts limitations to what God knows and can or cannot do?
+SwordofManticorE sup buddy, I remember you believing in no hell. Very interesting belief you have here.
So is the guy saying that there is no hell?
Maybe a Personal tour will change his mind.
No, Chan wrote a book questioning hell, and concludes that Hell must exist. However, Co-author, Dr. Preston Sprinkle, the scholarly researcher behind the book, recanted his belief in Hell shortly after book publication!
Much of what Dr. sprinkle previously thought was scholarly evidence and clear scriptures supporting the doctrine of Hell, proved to be false, and manipulated!
So who do you believe, The researching Doctor who concludes on the basis of scholarly research of scripture and historical evidence that Hell dosent exist, or the Pastor who does not disclose the fact that his book suppresses vital information that could expose hell as a myth?
Listen to the teaching friend, that not at all what he is saying.
chieduagain where did you get that doesn’t believe in Hell? Did u listen?
Fun fact: Chan's co-author of "Erasing Hell", Preston Sprinkle, has since changed his mind and no longer believes in hell.
Smart man
woopdee doo....lets focus on the truth not a "mind" that can be changed.
I'm glad To hear others know the truth.
Mist Mental He may be wrong on his interpretation of hell. At least unlike many others he is not telling people that everyone will go to heaven no matter how they choose to live their lives. He is only wrong on one account. Hell will not last forever. The bible is clear about the fact that it is a real place, and it will be used to punish the ungodly.
Malachi 4: 1-3 "“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts."
The wicked will become ashes, just like the ones people get when they cremate the body of a person who used to be alive. The purpose of hell fire is to destroy and cleanse, not to torture people forever for trespasses they committed during a short life. That would not be fair. God is a God of justice. Peace!
FAITHandLOGIC So?
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10
Hell is very real. Do not be deceived by these so called false teachings. I believe anyone who is going to hell knows before they die they have full knowledge of choosing or not choosing salvation. Our Father holds his scales even. Continue to Trust in Jesus! Sometimes when we are set on a course to move into bigger things along side of God. The devil will work twice as hard to stop us cus he is scared to death of what we will do when we start to realize who we are in the BODY!
I could not get what he is trying to convey here. I'm confused like which is which.
I totally agree. I just believe Chan got the duration of hell wrong. It should be corrective punishment (like that of a loving parent) not eternal torture.
Chan's argument begins with the assumption that the collection of books we call the Bible are "without error". Given that as a starting point requires continuous hermeneutical twist and bends in an attempt to harmonize that which is often contradictory.
Chan is essentially arguing that God is actually WORSE than us on our worse days. His emotional appeal to "God's higher sense of justice" is silly and defames the name of our Father.
It's funny how sometimes people think they're defending God's justice, when they might actually be defaming it. I agree with Chan that it's important to read the Bible humbly and respectfully; but I certainly have not shared conclusions with him.
Yeah, he starts from the assumption that any normal Christians would start with, namely that the Bible is God's Word. How outrageous, right? Do you claim to be a Christian? If so, then do you really believe that the Bible contains errors, and if so, how on earth can you know which verse is true and which is false? Do you decide by throwing a dice or something?
Daniel Sarmas the Word of God is Jesus.
Christian Guild Jesus is not a book, your terminology is a bit confused here. I was specifically talking about Scripture, not about a Person of the Trinity, not sure how you can get so confused with what I said.
Daniel Sarmas John 1
You righteous, flawed, beautiful, disciple. Francis, I'm glad that, I'm just so glad that God made you... that you come up with the truth, in all doubt. Everyone argues and everyone complains and everyone is atheist and years scientists try and study it and for years preists have tried to understand but YOU. YOU sit in a chair and you just talk about.. nothing but the truth. Nothing but what God is trying to say, you have provided us with something no other man on this earth can provide us with in all angles of God. I KNOW from the second I saw you on howto basic at my christian school.. your rebirth, your holy spirit, I'm sure the ickiness on your heart you felt for a couple of days really did change you into the person you are now. You are not an adult, or a grown man, to me you're still a disciple, to me you're someone, one of those people who has the marking of God on them. Out of everyone else who does, you bring it out and you're just.. if I ever, ever had a question about God.. and about my faith, i would ask you.
I believe... I always have, I I I just me me me... Jesus saves... we all have sin only believe and repent, being humble is not hard, we make it hard in our stupidity and unbelief, help us to believe and rest in Jesus Yahweh
Thank you for common sense GOD, Christ, Salvation, Grace, Scripture, Faith. I have just found your messages and my hope is that those who doubt, begin to think about their souls after we leave this earth. Keep up your ministry and God bless your dedication to His word.
If you don't doubt, you don't have faith. ~ Dale B. Martin, a retired Professor in Theological studies from Yale
What Francis Chan says about arrogance and putting God in submission of our reasoning is something that God has been teaching me. God has also been showing me that his ways are not our own. He doesn't have to explain himself to us. God is holy, just, righteous, loving, merciful, kind, all knowing. We have made God to be a cotton candy figure that we no longer realize how holy he is.
I love how he begins by saying "We shouldn't sway people, but provided the facts we have" and then gives what may be the most evangelical, opinionated view of the Bible. Pretty much everything he stated when talking about "I can't believe God did this" from the genocide, to the garden of eden, it was just filled to the brim with his own assumptions.
+Phil Thomas I was about to write a very similar comment. He is leaving a lot of holes in the evidence and everything he says points towards the very traditional evangelical views that are being challenged. Basically what he is doing by leaning towards the camera and sort of begging is "please don't leave our form of faith, lets just stick to this side of the story like we always have, otherwise you're going to fry". That's some nice fear mongering.
Tuttermuts Exactly! dude, we are cut from the same cloth. Look at history, religion, especially Christianity, has always changed, its always progressed. There have always been people who fought the change. People who fought the positive vibes and the love, but strangely enough, God is love lol. In the Bible they were called the Pharisees, but shocker, things changed anyway. It's crazy people can't see that, and they're just prolonging a process that's been happening for thousands upon thousands of years.
Tuttermuts If and when you do write this similar comment, please tag me and I shall reply to your comment.
+Phil Thomas I think you are confusing Catholicism and Christianity.
*****
Aside from one beeing an institute and the other a bunch of smaller groups (so they can always blame those "other" christians) I don't really see how the changing throughout history doesn't apply to both? If that's what you're referring too.
We thank God for such a revelation brother. May God forgive us😢.
Does olam mean "forever" as commonly translated in Jonah 2:6? Among other examples, much love!
i miss hearing teachings on spiritual warfare and deliverance. we need more revelation on this area. i thank God lots of preacher are coming to the realization that the power of God is available for us to cast out demons and deliverance from them all of this is real.
The only thing I noticed os that hd cut the verse in Revelation short. After it talks about the beast and false prophet being tormented forever and those whose names weren't found in the book were cast in as well. It says right after that that this is the second death. It doesn't say the others were tormented forever. You would think that would have been clearly stated just like the previous verse if all others were to be tormented forever but it says it is the second death.
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
Man, wow... I needed this today...
Thank you so much. So blessed to have seen this video.
God is LOVE.Use your God given conscience and the direction of the Holy Spirit to determine what complies with God's love.Be as a little child before God and no matter what you hear, trust Him ,His love will guide you.
Hard to take Francis Chan serious. He is an apologist for the NAR and the IHOP cults. Loves to talk about himself in most of his sermons. After all it's all about Mister Chan
I know first hand that He is loving, kind, and merciful bc I am a sinner and have been loved, given mercy and forgiveness despite what I deserve. We are given opportunity to accept His love. But He is also a God of wrath who punishes the evil in the hearts of those that do not accept His gift of salvation. I do not want to argue. I just enjoy sharing my beliefs as others share theirs. Thank you for your question.
Hebrews 9:27
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment "
The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. Well said, Francis. This is serious business.
Like it or not “Cause Produces an Effect!” And we are all the product of an “effect!” We were all “born” (Not Willingly) and placed into the environment we now exist in. And like “Actors” in a play, given the scrips of our parts to play. Some will be villains, some will be heroine, and some will be heroes. And by our “parts” we learn by experience, what is good and what is evil. Hence, we now learn why the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil was placed in the Garden of Evil…for our perfection.
Excellent points! Thanks for this message.
Thank you, may God bless you with all spiritual blessings. We might not all agree, but I pray that God through his holy spirit guides us into all truth, teaches concerning all things, gives us wisdom and understanding so we may know the mysteries and deeper things of God.
Lets stay humble and understand that they believe only what they have been taught!
They have been taught "Once to live, and then the judgement" without being told that God NEVER said the judgment would last an eternity!
Why are God’s thoughts higher than our thoughts? The context of this passage shows that it is because of God’s mercy.
7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:7-9
What are you saying?? You don't believe in hell??
@@chrisanok9283 Hey Chris. I believe everything Scripture says about Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, and the Lake of Fire. Unfortunately though, many popular ideas of "hell" carry extra-biblical baggage that I'd like to avoid. At the end of the day, we need to submit to God's word as the ultimate authority. God bless you brother.
God has touch you Francis Chan….I hope God enters my life in the way He shows in yours….You look like the Hands and Feet of Jesus
Scary how you put Chan on a pedestal!
I understand you have your view but I am not putting him on a pedestal, I am acknowledging his passion for Christ and encouraging him on his walk. Positive is always better than a negative….encourage and lift up one another.
"we can't be careless in this discussion because we're talking about real people" (accurate paraphrase), but for sure god can throw people into lakes of fire rightly because he's throwing real people there.
The Egyptians pagan religion taught that their God tossed the judged wicked into a lake of fire, 4500 years before Our God ever revealed it to the church as a revelation in the Book of Revelation.
That means the church either borrowed the hell myth from the pagans, or the Bibles lake of fire has a different purpose!
The early church believed that the lake of fire was for purification, not for torture!
“Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume His enemies.”
Hebrews 10:26-27 NLT
Matthew 25:46. Jesus is talking to his disciples about the Final Judgment. Starting in verse 44: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a strange or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these you did not do for me' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Merry Christmas!
"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to *all* people." - Luke 2:10
Susan Eggert Hmm, that seems to contradict St Paul
“By grace you have been saved through faith. *And this is not your own doing;it is the gift of God*, *not a result of works*, so that *no one may boast*.” (Eph 2:8)
I don't yet know where Chan stands on the doctrine, but I like the way he has posed the question. We already have too many "Christians" at each others' throats over doctrinal issues.
Important and consequential? Yes. "Can't afford to get this wrong"? I'm not sure about that. I don't think people's salvation is normally dependent on their embracing the right view of hell, or other such teachings.
As with most of what FC says, very well expressed ideas. I struggle w/Romans 13 (my rebellious nature) ... but that does fail in comparison to what FC brings up here. Great to watch him because he gets my mind to at least consider the things of Him.
John 10:10
The thief came to steal, kill and destroy (that's living hell )
but I (Jesus Christ) come to give life and life more abundantly (Eternal Life)!
God is Infinite Wisdom...human beings are limited and finite!
4:16 the reverse of this argument can also be true. What if you are ascribing something wicked to God, such as the idea that he torments people in eternal hell, that later turns out to be untrue, what does that say about you? Have you really understood God's ways?
beautifully explained ...as like reading me a thought provoking poem.
Psa 86:5-9 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; AND PLENTEOUS IN MERCY UNTO ALL THEM THAT CALL UPON THEE!!! All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
Those people from each nation that call upon the name of the Lord, they shall be saved!
Francis Chan is right on the money with everything he teaches !!
The only thing that I know for sure is.....that I don't understand everything. I have faith in things unseen and believe that God is loving and just. From that point of view.....I begin to try and understand.
How do I get involved with your ministry? The Lord called me as an evangelist and I've been working in that office for about 5 years. But I need more growth and where I presently reside that time has come to a close. We are not like minded in the thoughts of soul winning. Please I like to get involved with your ministry? 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽💯
Actually, I already addressed what "The Lake of Fire" means literally in the Greek. "Lake" means lake and "Fire" means fire. "Brimstone" also mean brimstone or sulphur.
It means exactly what the KJV said it means.
PRAISE THE LORD ALMIGHTY HOLY N PREFECT IN ALL HIS WAYS TOWARDS MAN Thank You Precious Brother For Humbling Yourself That The LORD WOULD REVEAL HIMSELF To You With Such A POWERFUL SOBERING AND CONVICTING WORD " LORD HAVE MERCY US WHO THINK WE KNOW !!! " THIS WORD IS TIMLY HOLY SPIRIT WORKS THROUGH WHOM HE CHOOSES NOT MAN AND Who They " THINK " # Like King 👑 David GLORY HALLELUJAH ALL PRAISE GLORY N HONOR TO ABBA
This is very revealing about how masterfully this doctrine of control by fear has been crafted so as to discourage questioning and keep people terrified. If you don't accept hell because you find it unconscionable and morally repulsive as an imperfect human, and reason from this that a God who is perfectly loving, merciful and just couldn't possibly be more cruel and vindictive than you would ever be then you are guilty of pride, of setting yourself above God and are therefore equally as hell-bound as any unbeliever. You must ignore your own conscience (the one God supposedly gave you to help you discern right from wrong) and simply accept the teaching or else. It's an almost perfectly-fashioned mental prison. Almost.
GermanVids EnglishSubs If we cannot trust the conscience God gave us to reject eternal torture in hell we cannot trust our conscience in any situation
In the book of Proverbs, it say in the judgment, even the wicked will be satisfied! How can someone be satisfied in eternal pain???
wow. this is incredible. thank you. God bless
God asks for faith, and understanding and wisdom is given to those who seek it. I think Francis already made the point that sitting as a judge to God's actions to label them "absurd", "unacceptable", etc. presupposes your mind as capable of understanding all actions by God when its abundantly evident the human mind cannot even comprehend a minute fraction of the available knowledge of creation. Humility is what God asks for.
Phl 2:11-12 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.
Psa 138:4-6 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, when they hear the words of thy mouth. Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD. Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: BUT THE PROUD HE KNOWETH AFAR OFF!!!!
Your madness easily refuted!
I have a question for everyone watching this video, spell the word stop out loud, what do you do at a green light?
Rev 14:7 ...Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
I guess my thing is that God IS Love. I don't want to put Him under me. I don't want to say He must do what I think He ought. But it says that Love has nothing to do with fear for fear come from punishment. He'll just doesn't seem consistent with the character of Christ I read in the Bible.
McKenan Bundy God changes not, He is the same yesterday and today. God is not just love, He is Just, Righteous, Holy, and on and on. Love is only one aspect of His Character /Nature. Can't pick and choose.