So the comment's section is running around in circles, so let's clear a few things up: *"Azula's story isn't misogynistic because "* Azula's story wasn't pulled fully formed out of the ether. She was the product of her creators, who routinely demonstrated contempt for their female characters. They chose to not give her the love and support of family that Zuko was given, and even chose to make Iroh dismiss her as "crazy." The only explanation for this dichotomy is misogyny. If ATLA being criticized makes you so upset you need to rush to it's defence with half-formed arguments, you need to take a step back and emotionally distance yourself from it. *"Amity was popular because of her gay crush on Luz."* Amity's popularity exploded long before her gay crush on Luz, and Lumity was a ship everyone dogpiled on before this as well. Long before she stopped being a bully character. That she so thoroughly eclipsed every other character is an extremely confusing phenomenon. Or it would be, except- *"Amity is popular because she's the only skinny white girl in the cast, while the others are not."* I actually already know this, but since Mikaila's video on Luz touches on this and it's being re-released soon I didn't want to step on her toes. Yes there is, and always will be, a white bias behind why Amity randomly exploded in popularity compared to Luz, Willow or Gus. And there is a similar bias behind why people are so overwhelmingly attached to the Golden Guard the moment he showed half his face.
Ah, yes. The fact that they decide to not redeem the bloody sociopath who had zero problem hurting and killing her family and friends is OF COURSE because of sexism. Sexism. The thing ATLA accuratly says was wrong. Sexism. Sure.
Ok, now answer me. How do you love and forgive a sister that ENJOYED SEEING YOU BE BURNNED BY YOUR FATHER. She did most of that crap all for herself and as Zuko said about her "being" sorry: no you are not. Even with all that Azula was done to him, lied, tried to capture and label as a traitor, KILL, he still tried to take her side (end of season two), or cared for her (Zuko talked about Azulo TWO times with Iroh about begin supposed for them to cre about each other). So as much as part of Azula being a "villain" is abuse another part is her herself being like that. It was either her choice or she had a little more of evil in her than most, pick what you like to believe, but for me Azula had to fall and the only sad thing about it is that Zuko truly loved her. No amount of suffering excuse someone of their actions and Zuko is also a proof of that when he ask forgiveness and make amends with the people that he hurted in the past. His forgiveness was somewhat earned because he was sorry and repaired the ones he wronged. Azula chosed not to give a fuck about other so and that was completely on her. So why should she be loved when she never choosed to love or care for anyone or anything that was not her own value and power. Some people are born unempathetic and even through they can learn some level of care and love this does not mean that she could be a "good" person even if given a chance. I believe that people are more than their past and situations and can make choices. That is why Azula is for me a great villain, she is the way she is and she choosed to be this way.
And to put that into application, Zuko found a parent he deserved through Iroh, and Ozai did not deserve either of his kids as he lacked any sense of love and concern that a parent should have.
Finally, someone speaks up about what Zuko's character actually is. His character arc isn't about turning from evil too good. It's about realizing that you don't have to suck up to a prideful jag off who things everything they do is perfect.
Being "snippy with people" is not an abuse victim becoming the abuser A abuse victim only becomes snippy as a form of coping or "DEFENCE!" so that those who hurt them cant do so and so those that gasslight them back off! Getting snippy is not an abuse victim turning into a abuser its them no longer tolerating your shit!
This. People tried to tell me i was rude as a child but in reality i was defending myself against horrible abuse. Fuck those people I had to deal with growing up.
Sad but true. I think it's contencted to this messed up "He pulls on your pigtails because he likes you" logic that is taught to young kids... and that's a terrible logic. Like no, boy pulls girls pigtails if he is a mean little shit, and if you want him to stop you can slap him.
I'm guilty of kind of liking the trope depending on the story. While I like She Ra and the ship Catradora it shouldn't have happened. I didn't jump on the ship until the last season.
Also I uh...can't help but notice fandoms usually do this trope when the protagonist is female, but not nearly as much with male protagonists. Catadora, Lumity, Reylo, RayaxNamaari, etc. Maybe I'm mistaken (if people can name ships as popular as those three, or just the most popular in their fandom, involving male protagonists and their enemies please do) but it kinda seems sexist to me? As if to say "Oh, women aren't truly capable of hate, they're just confused/they'll get over it, deep down inside they love their enemies and are always ready to forgive! Guys, though? Nah." Again, maybe it's not that deep, but I think I'm noticing a pattern.
It's the green hair. Personally I don't think she's boring for the kind of character she is, but if I had to guess why she's getting so much more attention than Willow or Gus I'd say that it's because she has that "pay attention to this one" design. That, plus Willow is kinda main trio in the beggining, which I now realize I've been conditioned to think that that excludes her from MC romance from other media I've consumed so that might be true for others as well.
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel I dunno, it would be cool if main character's goal would somehow harm her life and her family's life. So she'll be on cross road where it's not that Luz is wrong but her family is hurting.
"It's rare for abused victims to turn around and become abusers themselves." Absolutely true. That shit, if anything, makes you more self-conscious and self-aware. Though when it happens, as is the case with covert/vulnerable narcissists, that abuse is insidious as fuck and hard to break free from.
To add anecdotal evidence to "abuse makes you more self-aware": my gf and I recently broke up with our abusive partner, and not a week goes by where one of us says "Am I turning into her?" and I don't think a day has gone by without one of us thinking it. We're both desperate to never be in that situation again, on either side.
@@mariatomlinson2663 Another side is the hyper-awareness that comes from having to survive in those types of settings. The fact that you pick up on moods and reading the room to the point you can "read minds" (more like predict patterns). It makes you seem paranoid and more susceptible to apologizing for damn near everything that causes an slight inconvenience to anyone.
As a kid dad used my love for video games to make me do all the work house that he didn't want to do, get him drinks, jokingly called me a 'fridge remote' and even being his fucking fishing bot for wow as a reward for doing the stuff and I did it all happily. Now as an adult he's surprised that I struggle to ask my partner for help with cleaning the house, asking everyone if they want a drink whenever I get up (which to me is just being a good host), don't play MMOs amymore and his big brain concluded that my husband (who was a abuse survivor himself) is taking advantage of my kindness and has spent 3 years trying to convince me that was the case. I have cut contact with him cause it's not my job to figure out how to get me to forgive the bullshit he put me through. More or less the part of the family that things he's alright think I should be the one to offer the branch.
@@henrysplichal2987 Nah, that is mostly the case for vulnerable/covert narcissists. Sociopaths and malignant narcissists? They needed absolutely no sad backstory or anything to become that way. As a matter of fact, plenty of vulnerable/covert narcissists are made after experiencing abuse from malignant narcissists.
@@StripesChaosGremlin Tell them, in no uncertain terms, to go fuck themselves. Do not be afraid to go nuclear on toxic family members and even pound them into the ground if they cross a line and the opportunity presents itself. From my own experience, violence is the one universal language abusive people have no problem understanding.
I think the conclusion and why people love Luz and Amity together is character design. Like people underestimate the hell out of it, if you plan for two characters to be together a lot of the time, they have to be designed to look good together logistically.
I remember when I told my boyfriend about the sexual abuse my older brother put me through, I was fully expecting an argument about how "He's my brother and I should forgive him because he's my family" Instead though, he ended up telling me that me being angry at him is absolutely justified and that if we move in together I have every right to never want to see him again. It made me feel just really... loved, in a way that my head wouldn't let me feel for a long time. He accepted that I was angry and scared and promised me that if he ever tried anything again that it wouldn't go unnoticed. He made me feel like I didn't need to change who I was for the sake of pretending to be happy. Just... god I love this man.
About Azula. As a kid, I never thought she was irredeemable evil. That scene by the fire was, to me, a very clear sign that Azula was putting up a strong emotional wall that NO ONE could see into for very long. The quick nonchalance of her mother's saying she was a monster was a front and that told 8 year old me that she didn’t feel she could trust anyone to see her vulnerable or weak. And we know why she can't be weak; her father sees Zuko as weak and he isn’t loved or cared about at all. He was banished and scarred because he was weak. And who else does Azula really have other than her father? She and Iroh aren't close, her mother's gone, and she doesn't trust her friends or brother enough to really show that vulnerable side to them. When the show ended Witcher psychologically crushed and emotionally destroyed, I was just sad that Iroh and her mom hadn't been there for her when she was a kid. They were there for Zuko and Iroh left with Zuko once the kid was banished. Azula had always been alone. She never had a chance to become a good person in the first place. It serves as a warning, I think, for everyone who sees someone else going through abuse. If you can't stop it, at least be there for them. They need you.
The only place where the tone got it right, was the Last Agni Kai. Ozai and Aang had what you'd expect a typical fight scene to have, but Azula and Zuko? The music was downright melancholy. It was all sad violins with no violent undertones. It showed the tragedy of two siblings being pitted against each other by their own father.
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel Ozai is an Adult and his actions as an Adult show that he has genuine ambition and awareness towards conquering the world with no regard to others suffering. He planned his Father's death and acts on his goals with respect to himself. Zuko and Azula are children and have quite literally done the exact opposite and everything they do depends on how much their Father approves it. Iroh is the only one who had a Redemption arc because the loss of his son humbled him and now he will always be burdened with the fact that him supporting the war led to his son's death, he loses his desire to win and redeems his bad actions because personal loss made him resent his own actions and support towards the war.
But she was a monster. When she was little, she drowned turtleducks, made fun of Zuko, threatened Ty Lee and Mai to become her friends (to spend time with her), made fun of her uncle Iroh and his lost (his son). She was irredeemable because in order to redeem her action they had to do it while she was children. Iroh and her mom could help her like they did with Zuko but then we wouldn't get season 2's villain, Azula. It doesn't make sense to her having a redemption arc at the last minute but it does make sense the way she is. And in the end, we just feel sorry for her. Because we saw the effects of her father on both Zuko and her, and how they turned out very different from each other.
@@NodKrai @Usagi Lots of children are like that. They aren't monsters or irredeemable. Azula's mother called her a monster but that doesn't mean she was one. She wasn't doomed to always be that way; she was a product of her father's abusive and controlling view of the world. I don't think "the story would change" is a good reason to not do something but this isn't really about the writers or the direction of the story. Iroh and the mom should have helped her as a child, but they didn't, so here we are. Azula is now a murderer, and likely too far gone mentally to help. That's the lesson. Help children when you see they are being manipulated and abused.
@@sdathomas5088Azula's mother never CALLED her a monster, That was never said. Instead, what Azula said was her mother "thought" she was a monster. But, this is not true either. That was entirely in Azula's head.
I agree. I think Amity’s story is well written from a pacing and consistency stand point, but I never found her anything special either. I think she has gotten a lot better in season 2 because now she’s a part of different stories. I liked Amity fine, but I never got into her really.
I personally think Amity is popular because of fanfic and Fandom culture, people have developed a certain "Draco Malfoy" disease where any character who displays "high class, haughty, or just acts better or more refined" is seen as a good dynamic and likeable despite usually having no personality beyond that. Like people have just been copy and pasting Draco and other shitheads like him in some form, even if Amity is a likeable dork.
I had one friend who was talking to somebody about Catra and they came to me to ask about her abusive nature and I explained that, yes, she was abusive, but not to Glimmer and Bo. She's a villain, she's supposed to do bad things. They were never on her side, she was never on theirs. Most abusers plant themselves as your friend or use the friendly feelings you have for them to abuse you. That is exactly what Catra did to _Adora._ Time and again, Adora held out a hand and Catra just refused to take it, preferring to keep doing things to hurt her. And then, after joining Adora, her behavior didn't just stop. Sure they 'toned it down', but all of the trauma she put Adora through can't just be forgiven with a single desperate apology, and the other characters _even point this out._ As for Lumity, I mean... my friends tried to get me into the Owl House by saying "It's She-Ra levels of gay" and my immediate response was, "So, not worth my time" and then I started watching and I was hoping so much for Willow and Luz to be the gay they meant. I even briefly thought Luz and the one girl in detention would've been adorable together. You're right, Amity isn't bad, but I mostly only like her on aesthetic alone. Thankfully, Eda, King, and Luz are absolute treats and I love Gus and Willow more than I initially expected, so it balances out.
Don't forget Scorpia. Honestly they're relationship feels like the most 1 to 1 comparison of an abusive relationship with Scorpia spending the majority of the time dancing around catra, desperate trying to make her happy and defending her to others. One of my least favourite things was the moment catra turned up, Scorpia immediately embraced when literally her whole arc was walking away from their abusive relationship
@@CharlieViola100 I wasn't sure how to fit Scorpia into the comment without it feeling like a tangent, but you're right. That's actually one of the things that upset me the most. It is _incredibly_ difficult to turn away from abusive friendships, especially ones with unrequited feelings involved. But the writers showed Scorpia going through all the motions of someone defending their abuser, realizing that said abuser is abusive, and making the difficult and tough call to walk away, and that would have been _amazing!_ And then Catra was instantly forgiven the second she apologized because "It's supposed to be a happy ending", as if the word 'bittersweet' is meaningless. Even with Adora and Catra making up basically instantly and having their last minute get-together, it would've still been salvageable had Scorpia not hugged Catra on sight. But because one abuser was already dead, and another wasn't even the same person anymore, the last one apparently had to get a 'happy ending' to wrap things in a sloppy little bow. Catra deserved neither Adora nor Scorpia, and somehow she got both anyway. Zuko realized he was being manipulated and gaslit, and he struggled with walking away, and I doubt he ever forgave his father. Amity is a textbook bully and, while they can do a lot of mental damage, she _is_ at least shown being remorseful of her actions and things aren't just puppies and rainbows after she promised to be nicer to Willow. Willow didn't instantly forgive her and Amity is still trying to navigate being a better person. Both are different than Catra, but so far, Amity's walking laps around her. (I apologize for the rant. I was extremely put out by the third season of She-Ra because Catra and Scorpia were on the brink of making a nice life for themselves where Catra could actually be _happy_ and Catra's envy and rage had to screw it up.)
@@MakaylaTomasi sin squad did an interesting video on abuse themes on she ra, and they make a point that i agree with that catras story would have been miles better if at least ONE person didn't forgive her. Like, didn't she basically kill glimmers mum. Honestly I do think many stories of forgiveness would be better and more nuanced if not everyone forgives
I get that catra abused Scorpia, and that is wrong, but abusing adora? That I don't get. Sure, catra fought adora, tried to kill her twice (along with the world), and messes with her during fights, but why wouldn't she? Look, adora is shown to us through the "good guy" light. Constantly trying to help people, saving the world, and having wacky adventures with glimmer and bo, but what about catra? Are we just gonna ignore all the abuse catra went through because of adora? Catra may have chosen not go with adora when she left, but how could she? Your friend suddenly turns into a God, defects from your ideology and is telling you to throw away your shared goal and join the people you swore to fight? It may seem like a simple choice in the moment, but I doubt most people would instantly jump at the choice when presented with it. While adora was getting praise, love, and kindness; catra was being belittled, punished, and abused. Even before adora left she was still a target, and once adora left it is made clear that people do not think highly of her, not because she's weak or inferior, but because her worth was bellow adoras. No matter how much she improved, no matter what she did, she was always seen as a failure by those that mattered to her (that being Hordack and Shadow weaver). Heck, even her supposed "friends" only started treating her nicely when she was force captian, meaning they were forced to be nice or risk punishment. And for some reason adora is oblivious to catra's situation. I know, she's the bad guy and Hordack can't win, but their still must be punishment for her failures and it irritates me that adora is oblivious to this. In the episode where both of them are stuck in the temple, adora keeps asking why catra hates her, completely forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that each time she wins, catra is the one that suffers. So I ask again, how is she abusing adora? To me it seems more like simple revenge for what she put catra through. At the end of everything that is done to her, adora is the cause. Catra losing her only mother figures love? Adora. Catra being treated as pointless and disposable? Adora. Catra's mental state being broken? Adora. Even if she is blissfully unaware and did not mean for any of it to happen, the fact of the matter is that that is how it played out. I know this is a long winded rant, but it really annoys me how people completely ignore what catra has been through and simply say she's an abuser, when in actually she just wants revenge. That, plus the fact that at the end of the show she gets together with adora, completely throwing away her ideology that she can be her own person without her and her hatred for what she's been through, is really really infuriating. They literally destroyed all that character development in favor of "gay bait". Tl;Dr catra is not an abuser, she just wants revenge for adora leaving and being proactive in her abuse and torment in the hord, whether adora realizes it or not.
Zuko's arc is pretty much: -I need to restore my honor -I restored my honor -Oh wait, I didn't restore my honor(I just betrayed my uncle who's the only person in my family who's nice to me and didn't abandon me) -Fuck my dad and my sister, I'm out -Oh hey, I helped save the world
Yes, but tbf saying it that way loses why it was so impactful. it was because of inherent manipulation from almost birth, and ingrained racism alongside a flawed value system. Zuko was turning his back on what the fire nation culture in almost its entirety had become, not to mention his family and wealth. That's a huge step that during its course, helped showcase his (and even azula's) lack of social skills and ability to connect with others.
Ya i don't get why so many people go for the bully x protagonist ship either. Besides lumity i see people shipping that three eyed girl and willow alot and its like...DON'T SHE HATE HER?!
I’ve seen so many people ship willow and the three eyed girl and my god if you read fan fiction it is so weird how people make them get in relationships
I think people like Amity because shes essentially a /potentially/ great character who they wanna root for preemptively (like a weird fictional insurance plan).
I remember feeling sorry for Azula the first time I saw her break down after being defeated by Katara. For the life of me, I never knew why. But this video helped me to better understand. It wasn't just because she was always under pressure to never lose and always succeed in the long run, but because she was a kid. Ozai didn't abuse her the way he did to Zuko, but there was still a lot of psychological manipulation, abuse, and pressure going down. She only knew war, and that damaged her to the point where she doesn't even know how to behave in a casual setting.
"Zuko is not a villain and his story is not about redemption, but of recovery" "He was a good guy trying to be a bad guy because he thought it would make his father love him/stop abusing him and when he realized it didn't because it couldn't and finally saw that he was a victim of abuse, he found out he wasn't the problem/ wasn't doing anything wrong, but that Ozai was." Hooooly shiz... yeah I think I get it. Even watching the show back then as a kid it seemed I wordlessly understood that Zuko was ultimately a victim who recovered, not a "redeemed villain". If you want to think about it poetically, Zuko's firebending for most of the show was driven by rage and frustration from his abuse and his desire to reject it/ end it. (since firebending is symbolized as one's drive and self-expression) Then once he realized everything and recovered, he transformed his drive back into who he originally was, which was simply him following his beliefs on what was best for the Fire Nation.
I never thought about the fact that the reason why Ozai's children have such a huge difference in the way their characters were portrayed despite having to endure the same kind of abuse at the hands of their father was because of the sexism of the writers, but it definitely makes a lot of sense. Also Lily's avatar moving when she said "Fine" at 7:15 scared the shit out of me.
I don’t see it that way I always saw it as two responses those two had to there environment Azula even as a kid was always manipulative and unemotional but those traits where shown to be strong not only in the eyes of her father but in fire nation society. These traits were positively reaffirmed while Zuko who was the opposite got worse treatment. She became a lot closer to her father imitating not only his attitude but how he gives love and respect shown by her relationship with Zuko and her “friends” when this fails-her friends abandoning her- she snaps kinda having a crisis of identity because fear and dominance over others (subservience in her relationship with her father) was her best to connect, to be loved Her and Zuko position aren’t the same while Zuko was rejected by his father and learned that it wasn’t his fault, Azula was accepted and adopted her father’s awful traits which became her downfall
@@OlugbemigaFalegan I think someone did actually pin down what the psychological response was for Azula too. So it may not have been the intention but it does bare a resemblance to a legitimate response. In fact I'm positive it wasn't intentional no one would've actually thought about things like that back then. It was probably just sexist. If ur interested I think the video is called the psychology of Azula or something like that
Azula suffered a different kind of abuse from Ozai. Azula was the golden child who was groomed to behave a certain way, otherwise she would get treated and disposed of like Zuko. Forcing a child to be cruel to a sibling is a different type of abuse. Even if they had been abused in the exact same way, they could very easily have these two different reactions.
@@samiam2088 That's accurate, Azula and Zuko definitely have a golden child and scapegoat dynamic in terms of their father, which is why Azula ultimately welcomes and doesn't question her father's behaviour because it gratifies her and eventually puts her in a position of power over others. Their mother is also an important motivator for the two different reactions, she embraced Zuko and admired his compassion and kindness in his youth, serving as a form of shelter from the abuse he endured, but because Azula coped with the abuse by lashing out and mimicking Ozai's temper, their mother rejected her, which in turn made her favor her father and resent her brother more. While these elements in the story explain why Azula doesn't seek out the same recovery journey as Zuko in a believable way, the reason she isn't afforded the opportunity to seek out recovery still circles back to the writers. If they were open about the connection between her behaviour and Ozai's abuse the same way they were for Zuko, they wouldn't feel as good about writing the scene where she's beaten by Zuko and Katara.
Yeah, I disagree with Lily on this one too (not on the Korra part though). Azula was shown from a very young age to have taken after their monstrous father, and so she became the "golden child", and the positive reinforcement moulded her further and further into his image. And after losing her 'friends' because of her cruelty and domineering ways, her sanity was hanging by a thread, but Ozai discarded her without a second thought: he had what he wanted and no longer needed her. Azula was just as much a victim of Ozai's cruelty and abuse, she just never saw it because she was always seemingly his favourite. She sadly discovered that he never loved her or cared for her beyond being his weapon, until she'd driven away everyone and everything else in her life by striving to emulate him.
Abusive/negligent parents, a neat dynamic with Willow as begrudging allies, and turning her social dynamic upside down by meeting Luz to make her a more open character? Amity kind of feels like Gregory House in that, until the right moment, both were obstinately opposed to change to the point of making them unhappy. But once they accepted change was possible, they went after it and bettered themselves.
I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that people view friends to lovers as being so cliche (it's actually not) that they automatically gravitate towards any form of enemies/rivals to lovers (which is actually MORE cliche). And also friends to lovers is nice and cute, but enemies/rivals to lovers provides more fandom drama and things to pick up pitchforks about, and everybody LOVES their fandom drama even if they claim that they don't
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend where she mentioned that friends to lovers was overdone and she didn't really care for it. I thought about it for a moment and tried to think of how many friends to lovers ships there are in fandom and realized she was wrong. It only feels like we've had a lot of that ship because some of the best and most iconic shows have had friends to lovers. Sorry this was so long
@ 7:00 lmaoooo 😂😂😂 that caught me off guard Tw Also, you gave me some clarity on my own trauma in the first half of the video, and I’m glad. “Being angry and wanting justice isn’t a wrong.” That’s it. That’s exactly what I couldn’t articulate. I keep being told I need to leave it in the past (mainly by my mom and stepfather who repressed their trauma and now lash out 24/7) but what they don’t understand is that I *can’t*. I did not deserve the abuse I suffered. And my abusers deserve to know what damage they caused. They don’t get to sit there and be comfortable. I refuse to talk to my aunt, and maybe it hurts her, I don’t care. It hurt me when she beat me and locked me in a closet for hours on end, literally every time she watched me. She re broke my nose. Beat me with a broom for something I didn’t do. Beat me so hard with a wire hanger that it broke. I have a scar on my shoulder from that last one. She forced my sister and I to eat bugs and when we refused we were beaten until we complied. I was 4. She sexually abused and assaulted my sister and I. And she never saw repercussions because she’s schizophrenic and has some kind of other psychotic disorder (I THINK it’s BPD but it could also definitely be NPD or just straight up Bipolar.) my uncle was no better. He was worse to his own children because my father threatened to murder him with an axe and drop his body down the back of a mineshaft (back then, my dad probably actually could’ve. My uncle was very fat and he’s still very stupid. My father is a trained fighter and actually knows how to use the battle axe he owns (he’s in the SCA and did heavyweight fighting as well as real steel fighting which uses ACTUAL weapons.) If you think my father went too far, I have some terrible news for you. My uncle tried to beat his two year old daughter (at the time. She’s my older cousin so I wasn’t even alive yet) with a hanger with a pants clip because she was “playing too loud” My dad grabbed the hanger, asked what he was doing (lot more cursing) and told him if he did it in front of him, ever, if he EVER laid a hand on my cousins in front my father, he’d be missing in the paper in the morning. My dad was REALLY against corporal punishment. He did not see a point to it, because it never worked for him or his 5 older siblings.
Nice use of the clips from "The Southern Raiders" during the section where you talked about abuse victims often being forced to forgive their abusers in narratives. I really liked that episode for one reason alone: Katara did *not* forgive the man who killed her mother. And why should she? Because his retirement kinda sucks? Because his mommy is mean to him? This man is not deserving of her forgiveness in the slightest and the show knows this, so she doesn't give it to him. And that's it. Katara doesn't spare the little weasel because "violence and vengeance are wrong uwu", she just realizes he's not worth it. Another thing about that episode I liked was how very obviously it showed the middle finger to people who often try to browbeat abuse and trauma victims onto forgiveness. Aang spends almost all of his screentime in the episode lecturing Katara about wanting revenge on her mother's killer, mostly using empty platitudes int he vein of "Revenge is a two-headed sword" and even Sokka, her brother, tells her she's going too far. And they're very blatantly wrong to do so. Both Zuko and Katara tell Aang off for being so insensitive and sanctimonious. And when Aang tried to smugly compliment Katara on forgiving the murderer at the end of the episode, she just shuts that right down and tells him she *didn't* forgive the guy and doesn't plan on doing so any time soon. Especially in this day and age, where tv-shows seem to be allergic to the concept of abuse and trauma victims getting justice, this one moment is incredibly cathartic.
This also plays along the fact Aang tried every possible way to not kill Ozai, even though that man was the responsible of the suffering of millions of people and could be the cause of death of hundreds of thousands of them. The fight between Ozai and Aang could still end with Aang taking away Ozai's firebending, he could still not want to kill him, but he should've at least go to fight with the thought "I must kill him, even if I don't like it". Someone, probably Zuko, should have grabbed Aang by the shoulders and spitted the harsh truth to his face (and all the kids watching), he should have said something like "Kill him and you'll be responsible for one death, don't kill him and you'll be responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths!". Kids should be taught that sometimes death is the only way to have peace, not only prison or exile, death.
Your channel has been such a breath of clean air. I watched your WoW Cosmology vid a few months ago and I loved it, I subscribe but it seems like UA-cam didn't want to show me your stuff so I just rediscovered your channel and I have to say, I love it. You've helped me better word my opinions about the shows I liked but always felt off about, like Steven Universe. Thank you! And keep up the great work!
"I just don't fucking get it." Simple reason, I think: she's pretty. Some goes for the Little Witch Academia bully, she's really pretty. If these characters where more average or even ugly, their fans would be far fewer.
Diana's not a bully character though. She's just a harsh and brutally honest aristocrat who presumably follows tradition the way her blue blooded family does. The original OVAs had her waaaaay more of a mean girl so the perception stuck but the anime is its own continuity and in it, Diana is way more chill, just an ideological foil for Akko instead of an abusive classmate.
I think it speaks to how stupid the people who did Avatar can be that a huge portion of the same team worked on Voltron: Legendary Defender, and the Zuko/Azula character in that ended up being Lotor. He ends up coming out as the abused, traumatized victim of growing up as the unloved half-Altean half-Galra Prince of the Galra Empire, (essentially we’re doing Loki again here too) but still gets completely brutalized even worse than either of the clear influences they drew from on him. He’s a very interesting character in that he’s intelligent and cunning and driven, and his end goal is to achieve finding what is essentially unlimited energy, and follows his mother’s example more-so than his father’s. That is until the writers decided to turn him ass-backwards and make a random ‘he did something bad a while ago and didn’t tell us’ reveal that immediately made all of the members of Voltron turn on him, including Allura who was dating him. Absolutely no one ever questioned the story or stood up for him, and no one had any loyalty for him. And then, after shit hit the fan, during a battle Allura (his now ex) told him he was just like his father; his space-nazi abuser father. And he visibly and audibly snaps because the woman he loves just compared him to his abuser, and then he fucking dies when the Voltron group fucking kills him. His mother literally ends up recovering his ship and looking upon his half-melted corpse, after his ex-girlfriend purposefully triggered him and then killed him in battle. Lotor is one of the only two explicit abuse victims in that show, Allura being the second. And Allura comes off looking far worse for being racist, immature, emotionally and physically abusive, unwilling to listen to all sides of an issue before acting and acting on impulse and emotion, and just in general being a piece of crap for most of the series. And Lotor fucking died. These writers respect abuse victims until they really don’t. To be honest I think Zuko’s the only one they’ve ever done right.
At 8:08 I just had the biggest "I'm a fucking moron" moment when I saw Riku in the grooming/gaslighting section. I can't believe I never figured that out. Everything just makes so much more sense now. Fuck. I'm a moron.
Amity's design in comparison to Willow's may be one factor but another is the difference in storyline. Willow is already a well-adjusted character who instantly bonds with Luz. Meanwhile, Amity isn't introduced as a classic bully character. At first, it was just about academics but by the end of the wailing star episode, we see that's she's just a teacher's pet that wants to figure out why Luz is the way she is. That plus the fact that she has overbearing parents makes her seemly more complex then the bestfriend character. Bottom line: Willow's a developed character and Amity isn't. People want to know where she's going with it. Luz also having an incomplete moral development (lying about where she is). Makes the audience want to fit the two pieces together to see how everything else plays out. They are seen as two equal counterparts. While Willow would just be the support system. It would be cool to see an arc where Willow and Luz get closer and things follow from there. Other then Amity being gay and having an overbearing mother - there's nothing else going for her as a character. Meanwhile, Zuko is still a well-developed character taking Ozai out of the situation. And Catra still has shock value without her abusers. Willow given the chance, could be so much more then Amity but because we're so thirsty for lgbt+ reputation, we'll go for anything and that's not what we should be doing. Just like Malaika said, the show should just get Amity and Luz together and then follow to show how they stay together.
What bothers me about Amity's backstory is that it tries to explain that it was because of her parents that she started to bully Willow, that it was just an act and she didn't actually want to do it. But on her first appearance, when she's first seen bullying Willow, they are alone. There was absolutely no reason to put on this act, she could've had just ignore her and go her way. Instead, she seems to just want to and genuinely enjoy bullying Willow, for no reason. Any further "I regret what I did/I didn't want to do it" characterization falls flat to me.
I'd argue that it only needs one extra sentence of dialogue to fix that, because I noticed it too. However, Becoming the Mask is a trope for a reason. You do something often enough, (with support or expectation from those around you) you're going to start doing it on your own as well. Look at those kids on UA-cam burning the masks because of their anti-covid restriction parents. Kids like that harassed my grandmother once upon a time for having a John Kerry bumper sticker during the Bush jr days. Do they really understand all the connotations? No. They really only understand what their parents are telling them to do, and emulate those behaviors or opinions because why would the adults in their lives lie or be wrong? Seeing how blatantly odalia was willing to kill luz in front of that crowd, it's fair to say amity had reason to believe her parents wouldn't make idle threats. Looking back at the solo bully scene, amity was being rude, but no where near as ugly as she was in public around her friends. What she should've included in her apology was to say something like she allowed those feelings of others to cloud her own, and that gave in to the unwarranted bias they had about willow.
Well yes and no. Amity learnt that from her parents, very clearly. A lot of school bullies (though not all) learn that sort of behavior from their parents. Some grow out of it, some don't. Amity does eventually with some help. It's also very obvious she takes a lot of pride in being top of her class, and puts extreme importance on studying, not just because her parents expect her to, but also because she internalized that. I know a lot of people who didn't really have abuse parents, just regular strict parents, and they had a severe attachment to their grades in school. I had classmates (mostly women) who would cry just for getting a 7/10 on a test one time, because they ALWAYS got 10/10's usually. They took those grades so seriously, it was a core component of their psyche even if the test was entirely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Most of them were pretty shy and wouldn't really be a bully like Amity, but it was very clear from certain interactions that they viewed anyone who didn't get good grades with some level of superiority and disdain and viewed some of them as lesser than. Amity seems very much to be like that, at least at the start, she views school VERY seriously and she tells Luz this in Covention - 'You think it's SO easy to be a witch, I worked my whole life to get to the top! ...' She learns from her parents that she's better because she's from a wealthy family with power and that she needs to take school extremely seriously and work unreasonably hard to the point where she starts viewing Willow as lesser because Willow is not able to perform well in school (at least not until she switches tracks). I think a lot of people related to that scene in Covention because they were like that or knew someone like that.
I don't entirely agree with you. Zuko wasn't a good person at the start of the show, he burned down a village in the first few episodes while trying to capture Aang.
This video made me realize that the trope I ACTUALLY love is “complex and funny popular girl main character who needs to deinternalize societal prejudice and get out from under the influence of a literal dictator with direct influence on their lives who constantly lies to EVERYONE to stay in power so she can fully help her now best friend who has decided to rebel against the system for her own values/survival” (Galinda/Glinda from Wicked and Apple White from Ever After High) Which, I mean, I guess if you replaced Draco’s personality with Charlotte from Princess and the Frog and also had Hermione be the main character and had New Draco be her roommate and best friend who didn’t intentionally try to be racist towards her, and Dumbledore was replaced with Snape who really WAS working for Voldemort who was actually Unbridge and had been in power for both of their entire lives with no war involved in getting said power, Draco basically fits into that trope....
Huh, I would have thought that Willow was more white than Asian coded, and was therefore following the writing trope of chubby individuals not being the objects of love compared to thinner characters. Guess the Asian coding makes better sense than what I thought of.
True. I mean in the show drake and josh, josh don’t get a girlfriend til he is skinnier while drake had multiple. In shows there a huge amount of fat shaming. Like fat people don’t deserve to have a SO til they become attractive. Ugh.
Describing Zuko's arc that way is pretty eye-opening to me; very cool. As far as Amity goes, I def agree with the others that she's just pretty. It's not just that she's thin and white either, a lot of designs in the show are pretty lowkey, whereas Amity has one of the ones with the most "pop" factor. Bright, saturated colors and high contrast. Compare that to her siblings with much more muted hair colors, or Willow and Gus who similarly are pretty low vibrancy. Amity fits in more with Luz, Eda, and King than just about any other character. I would assume this is all intentional by the creators.
Dont mind either way with Amity but yknow, waiting on actual stuff to happen with her. It could also be cuz shes a pretty white girl with a nice design. It's wild how much u can get away with that way lol
Thank you for your Amity take, I thought I was alone on that. I mean she’s fine, but for God’s sake, it’s the Willow x Boscha stuff that irks me. Of all the characters the fandom could have paired Willow with, Boscha is who they chose? Ya’know, the minor bully character meant to make Amity less worse by comparison. Let’s pair her up with her victim, because reasons. She dumped garbage on Willow yet there’s cute art of the two roller skating together?! What is with the compulsion to ship bullies and victims? Meanwhile I have seen next to no Luz x Willow art and it absolutely baffles me that “ship everybody” fandom culture hasn’t made those two a thing.
Just watched the first part and it realy helps dealing with the gaslighting I get and understanding the situation I'm in. Thx for saying and saying so bluntly. Also hope the depression eases up and you get better or any medication for it
This was a really good video. I always love hearing your opinions on characters who are universally loved whether it's misguided, misunderstood or unwarranted.
I completely understand where you are coming from in terms of Amity’s characterization though I would disagree in that she is not as boring as Diana, but that wasn’t a high bar to begin with, and not as loathsome as Draco, who deserved a good kick in the teeth for each time he was on screen. I’ve noticed this on various rewatches of the show that aside from her gay panic moments her facial expressions are always so painfully subdued compared to everyone else. I almost want to believe that this is intentional and that the more she spends time with the others the more she’ll allow herself to be more expressive beyond showing her attraction to Luz, and I feel like we are kinda getting that now in season 2. We get hints, keyword being hints, of a personality beyond just being a love interest: her gentle demeanor towards children, being a fantasy nerd despite growing up in a literal fantasy world, taking no shit from people when she finally hits her limit, all of which have the promise of shaping a really fun and interesting character but that the show doesn’t fully commit to. Imma be honest I was really shipping Willow and Luz from the get go, I still think they would have made a really cute couple, but as soon as the show was being clear on who the actual love interest was going to be I fell into the Lumity ship with the mindset of “Well I might as well be happy for them” especially since so far nothing about the relationship has screamed toxicity like it did with catradora, which was just yikes. One thing that does make me genuinely upset is that Amity gets far more attention over literal ball of sunshine Luz, THE MAIN PROTAGONIST OF THE SHOW, who just deserves all the good things in the world especially a good girlfriend.
When it comes to Zuko, I should mention that Ozai hated him from the moment he was born. In the comics, it was revealed that he thought that Zuko was a non-bender, and was going to kill him as an infant for it.
I’m sorry, I’ve only read the one about finding Zuko’s mom once and it was a few years ago, WHAT?! Did the comics establish that babies show signs of being benders?!
@@jonmercano1138 Well, according to the comics, when Zuko was born, his parents didn't see "that spark" in his eyes, which they believed meant he wasn't a firebender. To Ozai, it would have been a "shame" for his son to have been a non-bender, so he was going to cast Zuko out of the palace(or straight-up kill him). However, the fire sages got involved and made it so that Zuko would be given a chance to prove whether he's a firebender or not, and luckily for him, he was.
Mm and that's where the line "Azula was born lucky, you were lucky to be born comes into play." Also I'm just realizing that I made two characters just like Zuko and Azula accept nither are painted at evil at all. Didn't mean to :/
@@wisdommanari6701 The thing is that either way, Firelord Ozai is a terrible father to Zuko(and Azula too, but in a different way). It's just that the comics reveal information that made out Ozai to be an even WORSE father to Zuko than previously thought, so there isn't really any problem that comes with having the comics involved in this discussion.
ooo you calling out the writers for their misogyny regarding azula's abuse was just,,,so good. i always thought it was them "accidentally" stigmatizing mental illnesses but now that i think about it they really screwed both her and hama over. two powerful women deeply impacted by years of (different kinds of) abuse disregarded as crazy? yeahhhhh men really need to stop falling into that gross pit.
@@personone1382 there's a common "trope" in media where if a women is extremely powerful and/or a prodigy she becomes unhinged and unstable, often seen as crazy while the writers ignore all she has gone through. hama had to watch her loved ones die right next to her and was traumatized from all the fire nation did to her but the narrative makes her out to be some cackling supervillain who's too far gone. azula is a 14 year old who suffered from abuse as well (she also was alone with her abuser for almost 3 years) but was not offered the same grace zuko, iroh and other fire nation characters were. they were demonized throughout the series by the creators of atla instead of being seen as complex victims of abuse.
@@screamingwhales4031 Azula always was portrayed like a victim of abuse. Her end was always shown like a tragedy. I mean Hama was really a victim but it would be difficult to create a scenario for her redemption
I think the answer is conventional attractiveness. Amity is more physically “attractive” than Willow to the general audience. You know how Disney made their villains look ugly in some way? I think these shows are going off a similar troupe where conventional beauty gets the ship. At the cost of decent characters and/or plot. 😑
Mhm. Amity is the only white coded character out of all of the kids, and her being fixated on over gus, willow, hell I've seen people care more about her than luz, is almost certainly because of that
@@audreyharris7643 also I never understood why people think Amity and Hunter stole the show. I love Willow and Guz ( also I am black but I dont care about the representation) . The two had the episodes than they deserved. There characters were perfectly fleshed out , I really don't see other opportunity for their character. Also I never understood why Lily said the episodes about Willow were for Hunter and Amity 's decision. It isn't like Willow 's story wasn't important. Story of character impacting others is a perfect writing. Honnestly all my problems with this show is Disney rushed the season 3. The owl house is easly in my top 5 of Disney 's cartoon
my theory for why so many ppl like her-- coming from experience bc i'm like the only person i know that prefers willow to amity-- is that 1. they're projecting onto amity, and see themselves as a mean person that's actually insecure on the inside and thusly latch onto her as a comfort character OR 2. they've recognized amity as their next #girlboss mean woman character person and are obsessing over her because they're just latched onto that trope in general
On the subject of Azula (from an Azula kinnie who went through the same abuse as her), it's a complicated thing for me. She had SO much potential, and in the comic series "The Search," it seemed like she was finally going to get her abuse acknowledged. (If you don't know, Azula ends up having numerous distorted hallucinations of her mother.) But they went and fucked it up right after by turning her into a "villain" again. Azula is not a villain. She's a 14-year-old abuse victim that was just her father's puppet. She does not have free will and only has her breakdown after one event makes her realize her entire life was a lie and that Ozai didn't love her (I had a similar episode when I was 13-14 after my father called me a "piece of shit"). The villain is Ozai, and I consider Ursa an abuser too for pitting her children against each other just as much as Ozai did. She only showed love to Zuko but had no respect for Azula. While Ozai gave Azula more attention, it was because she was a stronger fire bender. That's the only reason he cared about her. Azula did some bad things, but if she had a similar arc to Zuko, she could have been able to work through her trauma. The reason that I feel so annoyed at how Azula is portrayed is that I was her. I was able to work through my shit because someone HELPED me and didn't dismiss me as some angry bitch. I was able to start working through my trauma because my mother actually gave a shit about me even though she was distant for a good part of my life (she worked full-time). Needless to say, the writer's nailed it with Zuko but forgot about the type of abuse the other child goes through when raised by a narcissistic parent. It could be misogyny or just plain ignorance. Hell, it could be both. Sorry for the tangent.
For many years now, I've had a lot of complicated feelings surface whenever the topic of Zuko and Azula comes up. In recent times I've been grappling with the revelation that actually, I've been a victim of emotional abuse by my father (in hindsight it's obvious, but of course hindsight is like that). I've only just made the connection between those two things thanks to your words just now. Zuko and I have a lot of similarities: A father who will *never* be satisfied even if I do exactly what he says he wants me to but never considers what I want, and a high-achieving younger sister who, on a surface level, doesn't have that problem. Thankfully, unlike Zuko, I've got a mother who is still present in my life and a sister who has *never* let our father come between us and never looked down on me. I guess what I've trying to say is next time I see my sister I'm going to make sure hugs are involved. Also I now understand why I gravitate towards fanfics where Zuko and Azula get properly reconciled.
Yeah, I love those fanfics. But only if they're done right. Most of the time they downplay either Azula's or Zuko's character, or majorly dwarf down their powers. And I hate that. Do you have any good ones you could suggest?
Watching this video for the 4th time and just noticing that the puppets mouth actually moves when saying “fine”. That’s really cool. Little witch do the Macarena is the best joke.
Theirs something about Catdora, Aside from the abuse, that’s another nail in it’s coffin. Their sisters. Yeah not by blood but they were raised together by the same ‘caregiver’ as loosely as that term applies to Shadowweaver. But they were raised together. I read that as a sibling relationship. So when the ship happened I was completely caught off guard.
As far as zuko goes, he was not just a victim of his father's machinations, but also of circumstances. The fire nation had become pretty synonymous with racist dictatorship, and zuko did have to undergo some changes along his journey to see just how damaging the fire nation superiority rhetoric was. Azula was (unfairly?) set up as a monster from the get go. She was more powerful, more cut throat, more in line with the fire nation ideal (at that point in time) than zuko was. She likely saw that her mother favored zuko and protected him, probably reprimanded her behavior or spent more time making zuko feel better and loved by comparison. But what we never saw or was ever confirmed was that she thought azula was a monster. At the young ages where Ursa was forced to leave, we saw that azula was acting (believing) she'd have no issue with her father killing her brother. Whether the reality would've changed her we don't know. But we do know that azula put together the truth that her mom disappearing was because she wanted to protect zuko. Even in azula's breakdown, the mirror-ursa she conjured up never said anything harsh or ugly about azula. Unless she was doing horrible things we didn't see, azula likely tried to justify why her mother favored zuko when she was hailed as superior, further supported by her friends betraying her for similar reasons. As far as owl house goes, I'm very bummed about the lack of consistent screen time for both willow and gus, even with the episode that just came out it lampshaded that luz had been focused more on amity than them recently. However, when it comes to the debate of favoritism between willow and amity, for me, it wasn't cuz she was white. I legit didn't care for amity and didn't expect her to change at all, or at least not quickly. I preferred willow for her plant powers over amitys sludge golems. I'm actually even kind of glad they changed amity's hair because I didn't ever really enjoy the original. But while it's clear that amity and luz is the answer to what Dana wanted from little witch, the audience is a different story. Amity tickled that enemies to friends to lovers box, she was drawn thin, voiced by Mae Whitman, had a bit more activity going on between her and luz (which was fully a choice by the writers) that sparked more episodic plots.
My guess is the reason why Amity and Luz being together is so popular is because “antagonist redemption” and for the sake of it being two Girls that probably won’t even get together till the end and enemies to lovers just a mixture of those 3 things and also pretty much every popular ship in anime is either confusing, wrong or just stupid.
Dude the kiss on the cheek doesn’t mean they are together I’ll give them that Amity already has a crush and Luz seems to have a crush but it’s not completely different until they are together for a decent amount off time before the series ends.
and than everyone pushed aside amity once hunter started to appear but hunter kinda just fell from the same tree but lasted even less time for him to be on the side of good
I always thought that Ozai just had a stronger hold over Azula due to his favoritism for her , as she was more talented in fire-bending as a child, gaining his and Sozin's approval, so he only gave her attention and left his weaker son to his wife. Making it so that Azula was by his side more and gained far more of his tendencies and had his ideologies drilled into her far more frequently. Plus, different people react to abuse differently, no matter their sex/gender/identity. Though I also completely agree with the fact that women are not given enough nuance or subtly as men in written/visual works made by misogynistic people, which is to be expected from misogynistic people.
FINALLY!! Someone who agrees that zuko’s character development isn’t a redemption arc! Also pretty sure amity is only popular cuz she’s a white and went through an arc. People like developed characters, no matter if said development was good or bad. It creates the illusion of a 3D character
Most of his story is about him trying to find redemption in his father's eyes. Sure he does eventually become a good person and he changes but But his redemption that he is looking for isn't the entire picture either
Saying victims of abuse don't have to change is Just not true In my eyes because it Does not apply Universally. Just because someone is a victim of abuse doesn't mean that you should ignore the toxic bad behavior that might happen to be a result of it. Victims can also be terrible people.
@@Rose-wc5gd Zuko was a victim but at the beginning of the show he was kind of a cunt. He starts appreciating his uncle and stops hunting Aang and has a respectable life in Ba Sing Se so he did redeem himself. He also attempts to free Iroh and helps Aang defeat Ozai.That sounds like a redemption to me. Also he sent Sparky Sparky Boom Man to "end" Aang. Did we just forget about that? Iroh is in prison because of his mistake, that too. He didn't defeat Aang at the end of Book 2 but he's not innocent in that fight. He was definitely an antagonist for a while.
He Is my favorite character of the shell honestly he made for such a good Antagonist and then when he decided to go with team avatar it just made his character development even better
I screamed when I saw Lily had uploaded a new video I love the topics and I’m super happy that Lily was able to post even though it probably wasn’t as much content as she was hoping to put out
while we are on the Owl House. I really like how season 2 has been shooting down all the fan theories that have been brought up. There're are still a lot being made, but those are probably going to get shot down too. Something I would love to see is this, King's dad shows up in a random episode, he's not the titian or whatever, he's just a dude, he tries to get King to forgive him, King tells him to fuck off, and then he does and we never see him again.
I was gonna comment that the only thing abuse victims need to change is unlearning the unhealthy coping mechanisms they learned to deal with abuse in the first place and then you stole the words right out of my mouth a second later when you talked about their journey of recovery.
Tbh, after the latest episode Gus finally got the spotlight he really deserved while we got to see relationship between Luz and Amity finally developing into an official ship. Still don't know why everyone felt the need to go absolutely _Awooga_ with the cheek kiss scene completely overshadowing Gus's development with Matt - (perhaps since I am not really into ships in general and vastly prefer good/feasible/consistent writing) - I still have a feeling that the relationship was _speedrunned_ for the sake of other plots.
i’ve always thought about this with you in mind Lily because I want to see what do you think of it. One of my favorite redemptions media is about this one family. The father was abusive, favoring kids over others and drove his wife so crazy that she eventually snapped and poured boiling water over one of her sons Face, which is the results into her being put in a mental hospital and the kid having a sumo like scar. Fast forward a couple years and one of the sons (Who is now part of the main cast) With the help of his friends stops being emo and confronts his past. Visiting his mom siblings and becoming a happier person, But still has A rightful grudge against his father. However, things take a different turn as the father actually notices the son it’s getting better. And after a Massive story event revolving around him, he realizes that he really messed up in the past with his family. He then starts asking for help from other people on what he should do, and he goes to talk to his family. Rightfully so they don’t forgive him for what he’s done in the past, and you know what? He’s OK with that. He knows he’s messed up big-time and he can’t fix that. But that doesn’t mean he not going to try to become a better person. Saying “ i’m proud of you all, so I promise you will become someone that you can be proud of to.” And then physically scarred son saying, “ I still can’t forgive you so what you did to mom in our family and that’s my choice to make, however I want to see where things go from here. Because I know one small interaction Can change someone for the better.” And from there the family does get better. The dad buys a better house for His family to live separate in from him, attempts to reconnect with his wife, becomes a better person for people around him. And while no one in his family can never forgive him, they respect that he’s trying to change and that gives him the motivation to settle their own differences. This is hands-down the best redemption arc I’ve read. Because it attempts to give you something risky and give an abuser a atonement ark, and it still works despite nobody redeeming him. So what do you think lily?
Hey hero aca! I do like the arc but I think it’s kind of messed with when you add touya being traumatically scarred because of his fathers neglect and then turning into a villain, it could be very hit or miss with either touya wanting justice, revenge, or to become a new abuser
i think it is because of Amnity's design. People tend to like characters with died stylized hair and peole ship that because she goes out of her way to look a certain way. People watching will project onto the protagonist and rather she go out with the pretty goth girl then some nerd. Its very creepy but I think it factors in.
I’m pretty sure the whole Amity thing is cause she’s a stereotypical pretty white girl (big eyes, skinny, oval face) that makes people drawn to her and that’s legit uncomfortable. While I’m not gonna scream racism I do think that may factor in a little bit with the fan base subconsciously. Edit: just watched the most recent episode and it makes my point best in that this one was about Gus and yet people are going nuts I’ve the Lumity moments
I do agree with you, although the writers of the owl house are currently trying to correct the Amity problem. The current season has a lot of REALLY interesting moments about Amity, like especially how she seems to completely dissociate when she is around her mother, f.e. when she acts completely emotionless during the first blight industries presentation scene
Has Lily watched Amphibia? I’m curious because from what she’s said in some of her videos I feel like it’s a show that she’s like. There’s some nice found family going on, most of the episodes just have a fun self contained story, the characters are fun and over the top silly most of the time.
So glad I'm not the only one that thought Willow and Luz were more interesting upon introduction than Amity and Luz.. I was really hoping Luz and Willow were going to be something considering how cute their bond was in their first episode together along with the fact Willow seems to be the person that grounds Luz whenever she's out of hand... I honestly wish they had more relationship time together because I feel like the sports episode and their debut was the most interaction they had... also I in general wish more plus-sized girls were romantic interests more. :(
I don't have a specific answer to the Amity question, but it does seem like a lot of people in a lot of different fandoms hyperfixate on minor stuff (ex. The MLP fandom's obsession with background ponies). I guess people just like her archetype a lot, though TOH has so much more to offer than just another sympathetic school bully character.
Yup. Also I’m just waiting for Gus to be something than black human crazy friend. We got everyone but Gus. We know everything but with Gus we know nothing. He in illusion class, has a reporter dad and crazy about humans. He a hardworking student but really tired of him just being there.
A nitpick: we don't know if Ursa called Azula a monster. She said Ursa thought of her as a monster. It might've been her assumption, or something Ozai wanted her to think
@@blockEdragon Azula knew she favorited zuko, probably gave more attention, or told azula to not be so mean or aggressive. But considering we see how young they both were when Ursa was cast out, there's no way azula had accomplished anything truly monstrous enough to warrant her mom even thinking that way, unless she was killing baby turtle ducks off screen.
5:56 Seen that scene so many times and only just now noticed that Azula's fire breath evaporates the water around her. Attention to detail in animation is always a pleasant surprise. Sucy is a fan favourite. Unfortunately because it's highschoolers and the showmakers/a lot of fans are pervs it's not for particularly good reasons (might have to watch it subbed to see if the characterisation is any different from the english version). Dunno what it is about people shipping characters with their tormento- err sorry ... "Rivals," but it drives me up the wall.
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel That begs further questions: What is it with so much of western media and redemption stories? What does it stem from? Is it to do with the chequered pasts so many nations arose from? Is it theological influence? What d'you reckon?
Can't speak for everyone but personally whilst I like to get to know someone very well before dating them, there is a huge difference for me between romance and friendship. The idea of dating one of my close friends, even one I find attractive, is odd and just not appealing to me. I greatly seperate friendship from romance and need to start out with at least a slight romantic attraction and have a vague idea that this is different to friendship. There needs to be a bit of flirtyness/passion there which does not exist in platonic friendships. I usually feel this more for new people and very much doubt I could ever feel it for someone I'd been friends with for a long time. I see my friends more as my family and having relations with them outside of friendship would just be uncomfortable to me.
I was reminded of this when talking about this video with a contact: Next Gen does have a victim character. And they F up her revenge outlet. Amusingly: I have noticed that A LOT of the fans of the movie feel similar. In the movie, she just... magically "is the bigger person". And it just RUINS that scene. They had the PERFECT opportunity to let a bullied child get revenge. AND have a epiphany how they aren't a bully. But nope! She's the protagonist. She can't be petty or have emotions! She's a good girl! /S
The reason why people love those ships is because it flows with the theme that Love Conquers All. It doesn't matter if the two characters are completely opposite of one another , love is such a powerful force that it can bring anyone together. I mean...it's CAN, but not ALWAYS. And it's really jarring to add such a lofty idea to modern shows which are all about realism and subversion. It's like adding a Unicorn to a crime drama.
I am actually rewatching ATLA right now. And though I do see your point about misogyny now, May I state the fact that we never actually hear Usra say Azula is a monster? Azula only believes her mother thinks she is a monster. The untrue and unjust belief that Ursa favored Zuko, paired with Ursa trying to reign in the troubling unchildlike behavior Ozai encouraged in Azula fed into her belief that Ursa thought she was a monster.
I’m pretty sure the reason Amity was popular from the moment she was introduced is because of white favouritism. She’s the only recurring caucasian-adjacent character in TOH, and due to a (probably subconscious) bias, white fans latched onto her.
Honestly? I don't care. If Amity is the love interest oh well although I will say the bullies to lovers trope is so overused that and it's only good if it's done well.
no your not crazy i never watched the witch anime and from your reaction videos you made me fall in love with susie as her personality is just fun to watch.
Bruv, Tsundere characters like Amity, Mandy, or Raven have ALWAYS been fan favorites, it's not rocket science, you guys don't have to call the fandom racist because of it.
i mean i prefer Luz and Willow over Lumity. Also I'm willing to bet a number of people that promoted Lumity either realized how the show writer thinks or can see the future
People started shipping luz and amity as soon as amity showed up for 3 reasons. 1. People thought it would be enemy to loves we know that much 2. A large part of the general audience don't like the you get with your best friend idea. I think its because if it happened in there favorite show it would tell them to do it and there scared of that. 3. People jumping on a bandwagon.
K but I don't get the second reason. I've seen so many good relationships come from best friends falling in love with each other and I wish it was done more often. That's legit how me and my gf got together, we formed a legitimate bond and when I realized my bf wasn't really that interested in me we broke up and I got with my now gf.
It’s for the reasons you brought up in this video that I prefer Zuko’s character growth over Shoto Todoroki’s even though I still like both characters and the series they come from in general. From the get go, Ozai is framed as a monster who needs to be stopped, whereas Endeavor is set up in universe as one of the most popular Pro Heroes in Japan. Both have had a similar effect on their respective families; driving one of their children to becoming a deranged, blue fire wielding maniac, psychologically destroying their respective wives, and leaving their respective sons with deep physical, mental, and emotional trauma. Because of the previously stated fact that Ozai makes no attempt to hide the skeletons in his closet and is indisputably in need of being taken down, Endeavor is still framed as someone who wants to make amends to his son. On paper, this wouldn’t be such a bad idea: A father who realizes that he messed up and recognizes that earning the trust of his family isn’t going to be easy or even entirely possible. The problem, for me at least, is that it doesn’t take away from the fact that he used Shoto and his siblings to further his own ambitions of glory at the detriment of their trust in him. Heck, he doesn’t even fully realize just how much he messed up with his family until Dabi reveals himself as Toya. Granted we don’t get a similar moment with Ozai since, again, he genuinely doesn’t seem to care about anything other than dominating the world. This ended up being a long rant about a complaint I have against Endeavor, and I’m just a casual MHA fan, so more savvy fans of the series may try to start discussing what I may have missed, in which case I’m all ears. But again, this is why I personally prefer Zuko’s story to Shoto’s.
Yeah. I am REALLY tired of all this "Be the bigger person!" and "Keep the peace!" and ofc: "FAAAAAAAMIIIILY!" excuses given to put the blame on abuse victims in today's world. Like, it is NEVER up to the victim to "be better". WHY are people so reluctant to blame the actual bully/abuser? Oh, right: Because "It's easier". The bully/abuser will throw tantrums and hissy fits if they don't get their way. That's "Just how they are."
Just a random thought on why Amity got more popular as Luz's possible significant other rather than Willow; We are heavily conditioned on what defines beautiful thanks to media and magazine models and celebs that we'd obviously lean toward Amity as her character design is thinner and in some peoples' definition prettier than Willow's character design. Long story short, Willow doesn't express the 'usual' definition of pretty whereas Amity does and so we are drawn more to Amity rather than Willow. As well as people hang onto popular cliches like their life depends on it. Idk, just a weird thought I had while watching this. What do you all think?
@@girlkittyplays5233 Beauty standards have been based on European (white) features since pratically forever, and Native American, Black, Asian, whatever you can think of was deemed unattractive because "🎶Yaaay, da white man!🎶". The shift in beauty standards to _not_ be racist began within the past 30 years because of rap culture being associated with black culture in the 90s and 2000s, anime taking off in the 2000s and 2010s because of the good ol' weeb™️, and I can't think of an example for Native American people - (sorry about that, Lily) - This shift to be less white-centric in beauty is relatively new. But, with many othet biases, those tend to take a while to shake off - and when it's something than ran as long for over 500 years, 30 years isn't gonna do much in of itself. TL;DR Inclusivity in beauty is still new, and Fandom™️ hasn't quite shaken off the "White = Good" subconscious bias yet
My theory is that people liked amity's design but didn't like the fact she was an antagonist so they went polar opposite and started shipping them in denial
Excuse me? I'll let you know that I wanted to be kissed by the school bully that tormented me, not the one that tormented my best friend. My school life was messed up...
So the comment's section is running around in circles, so let's clear a few things up:
*"Azula's story isn't misogynistic because "*
Azula's story wasn't pulled fully formed out of the ether. She was the product of her creators, who routinely demonstrated contempt for their female characters. They chose to not give her the love and support of family that Zuko was given, and even chose to make Iroh dismiss her as "crazy." The only explanation for this dichotomy is misogyny. If ATLA being criticized makes you so upset you need to rush to it's defence with half-formed arguments, you need to take a step back and emotionally distance yourself from it.
*"Amity was popular because of her gay crush on Luz."*
Amity's popularity exploded long before her gay crush on Luz, and Lumity was a ship everyone dogpiled on before this as well. Long before she stopped being a bully character. That she so thoroughly eclipsed every other character is an extremely confusing phenomenon. Or it would be, except-
*"Amity is popular because she's the only skinny white girl in the cast, while the others are not."*
I actually already know this, but since Mikaila's video on Luz touches on this and it's being re-released soon I didn't want to step on her toes. Yes there is, and always will be, a white bias behind why Amity randomly exploded in popularity compared to Luz, Willow or Gus. And there is a similar bias behind why people are so overwhelmingly attached to the Golden Guard the moment he showed half his face.
All you guys should try reading the sequel comics if you can, I imagine it might "change" some thinking
@@Supernir
I think the _comics_ would be irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Azula is a misogynistic representation in the _show._
Did you really just say that Azula story is Misogynistic. LMAO
You wrong. period point blank.
Ah, yes. The fact that they decide to not redeem the bloody sociopath who had zero problem hurting and killing her family and friends is OF COURSE because of sexism. Sexism. The thing ATLA accuratly says was wrong. Sexism. Sure.
Ok, now answer me. How do you love and forgive a sister that ENJOYED SEEING YOU BE BURNNED BY YOUR FATHER. She did most of that crap all for herself and as Zuko said about her "being" sorry: no you are not. Even with all that Azula was done to him, lied, tried to capture and label as a traitor, KILL, he still tried to take her side (end of season two), or cared for her (Zuko talked about Azulo TWO times with Iroh about begin supposed for them to cre about each other). So as much as part of Azula being a "villain" is abuse another part is her herself being like that. It was either her choice or she had a little more of evil in her than most, pick what you like to believe, but for me Azula had to fall and the only sad thing about it is that Zuko truly loved her.
No amount of suffering excuse someone of their actions and Zuko is also a proof of that when he ask forgiveness and make amends with the people that he hurted in the past. His forgiveness was somewhat earned because he was sorry and repaired the ones he wronged. Azula chosed not to give a fuck about other so and that was completely on her. So why should she be loved when she never choosed to love or care for anyone or anything that was not her own value and power. Some people are born unempathetic and even through they can learn some level of care and love this does not mean that she could be a "good" person even if given a chance. I believe that people are more than their past and situations and can make choices. That is why Azula is for me a great villain, she is the way she is and she choosed to be this way.
I do like where Amity's character is going though. Her standing up to her parents and especially her mother's abuse was a great moment for me.
3:21
I will always stand by the notion that all children deserve parents, but not all parents deserve children
I will stand with you.
Cough Willoughbys
And to put that into application, Zuko found a parent he deserved through Iroh, and Ozai did not deserve either of his kids as he lacked any sense of love and concern that a parent should have.
Finally, someone speaks up about what Zuko's character actually is. His character arc isn't about turning from evil too good. It's about realizing that you don't have to suck up to a prideful jag off who things everything they do is perfect.
It's about both
@@musicalsaber6433it EXPLICITLY is not.
Being "snippy with people" is not an abuse victim becoming the abuser
A abuse victim only becomes snippy as a form of coping or "DEFENCE!" so that those who hurt them cant do so and so those that gasslight them back off! Getting snippy is not an abuse victim turning into a abuser its them no longer tolerating your shit!
This. People tried to tell me i was rude as a child but in reality i was defending myself against horrible abuse. Fuck those people I had to deal with growing up.
I think too many people are wayyy into the bullies to lovers trope.
Sad but true. I think it's contencted to this messed up "He pulls on your pigtails because he likes you" logic that is taught to young kids... and that's a terrible logic.
Like no, boy pulls girls pigtails if he is a mean little shit, and if you want him to stop you can slap him.
Its so damn weird seriously, it like they completely forgot how relationships actually work.
I'm guilty of kind of liking the trope depending on the story. While I like She Ra and the ship Catradora it shouldn't have happened. I didn't jump on the ship until the last season.
Also I uh...can't help but notice fandoms usually do this trope when the protagonist is female, but not nearly as much with male protagonists. Catadora, Lumity, Reylo, RayaxNamaari, etc. Maybe I'm mistaken (if people can name ships as popular as those three, or just the most popular in their fandom, involving male protagonists and their enemies please do) but it kinda seems sexist to me? As if to say "Oh, women aren't truly capable of hate, they're just confused/they'll get over it, deep down inside they love their enemies and are always ready to forgive! Guys, though? Nah." Again, maybe it's not that deep, but I think I'm noticing a pattern.
@@galacticglamourgirl I can’t name any except Draco x Harry which was the OG bully x protagonist ship.
It's the green hair. Personally I don't think she's boring for the kind of character she is, but if I had to guess why she's getting so much more attention than Willow or Gus I'd say that it's because she has that "pay attention to this one" design. That, plus Willow is kinda main trio in the beggining, which I now realize I've been conditioned to think that that excludes her from MC romance from other media I've consumed so that might be true for others as well.
This 'main trio' barely have any development, it all went to Amity. Yes, I am salty.
@@DeathKitta Gus is fine. It's Willow that keeps getting the short end.
@@DeathKitta that cuz i think the main trio was something the Disney Executives came up with or pushed for. Which we not see alot of them in season
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel Well yeah, if they aren't getting anything new, they'll stay bland and one-note.
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel I dunno, it would be cool if main character's goal would somehow harm her life and her family's life. So she'll be on cross road where it's not that Luz is wrong but her family is hurting.
"It's rare for abused victims to turn around and become abusers themselves."
Absolutely true. That shit, if anything, makes you more self-conscious and self-aware.
Though when it happens, as is the case with covert/vulnerable narcissists, that abuse is insidious as fuck and hard to break free from.
To add anecdotal evidence to "abuse makes you more self-aware": my gf and I recently broke up with our abusive partner, and not a week goes by where one of us says "Am I turning into her?" and I don't think a day has gone by without one of us thinking it.
We're both desperate to never be in that situation again, on either side.
@@mariatomlinson2663 Another side is the hyper-awareness that comes from having to survive in those types of settings. The fact that you pick up on moods and reading the room to the point you can "read minds" (more like predict patterns). It makes you seem paranoid and more susceptible to apologizing for damn near everything that causes an slight inconvenience to anyone.
As a kid dad used my love for video games to make me do all the work house that he didn't want to do, get him drinks, jokingly called me a 'fridge remote' and even being his fucking fishing bot for wow as a reward for doing the stuff and I did it all happily. Now as an adult he's surprised that I struggle to ask my partner for help with cleaning the house, asking everyone if they want a drink whenever I get up (which to me is just being a good host), don't play MMOs amymore and his big brain concluded that my husband (who was a abuse survivor himself) is taking advantage of my kindness and has spent 3 years trying to convince me that was the case. I have cut contact with him cause it's not my job to figure out how to get me to forgive the bullshit he put me through. More or less the part of the family that things he's alright think I should be the one to offer the branch.
@@henrysplichal2987 Nah, that is mostly the case for vulnerable/covert narcissists. Sociopaths and malignant narcissists? They needed absolutely no sad backstory or anything to become that way. As a matter of fact, plenty of vulnerable/covert narcissists are made after experiencing abuse from malignant narcissists.
@@StripesChaosGremlin Tell them, in no uncertain terms, to go fuck themselves. Do not be afraid to go nuclear on toxic family members and even pound them into the ground if they cross a line and the opportunity presents itself. From my own experience, violence is the one universal language abusive people have no problem understanding.
"Little Witch Do the Macarana" absolutely killed me.
I think the conclusion and why people love Luz and Amity together is character design. Like people underestimate the hell out of it, if you plan for two characters to be together a lot of the time, they have to be designed to look good together logistically.
I remember when I told my boyfriend about the sexual abuse my older brother put me through, I was fully expecting an argument about how "He's my brother and I should forgive him because he's my family" Instead though, he ended up telling me that me being angry at him is absolutely justified and that if we move in together I have every right to never want to see him again. It made me feel just really... loved, in a way that my head wouldn't let me feel for a long time. He accepted that I was angry and scared and promised me that if he ever tried anything again that it wouldn't go unnoticed. He made me feel like I didn't need to change who I was for the sake of pretending to be happy. Just... god I love this man.
About Azula. As a kid, I never thought she was irredeemable evil. That scene by the fire was, to me, a very clear sign that Azula was putting up a strong emotional wall that NO ONE could see into for very long. The quick nonchalance of her mother's saying she was a monster was a front and that told 8 year old me that she didn’t feel she could trust anyone to see her vulnerable or weak.
And we know why she can't be weak; her father sees Zuko as weak and he isn’t loved or cared about at all. He was banished and scarred because he was weak. And who else does Azula really have other than her father? She and Iroh aren't close, her mother's gone, and she doesn't trust her friends or brother enough to really show that vulnerable side to them.
When the show ended Witcher psychologically crushed and emotionally destroyed, I was just sad that Iroh and her mom hadn't been there for her when she was a kid. They were there for Zuko and Iroh left with Zuko once the kid was banished. Azula had always been alone. She never had a chance to become a good person in the first place. It serves as a warning, I think, for everyone who sees someone else going through abuse. If you can't stop it, at least be there for them. They need you.
The only place where the tone got it right, was the Last Agni Kai. Ozai and Aang had what you'd expect a typical fight scene to have, but Azula and Zuko? The music was downright melancholy. It was all sad violins with no violent undertones. It showed the tragedy of two siblings being pitted against each other by their own father.
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel Ozai is an Adult and his actions as an Adult show that he has genuine ambition and awareness towards conquering the world with no regard to others suffering. He planned his Father's death and acts on his goals with respect to himself.
Zuko and Azula are children and have quite literally done the exact opposite and everything they do depends on how much their Father approves it.
Iroh is the only one who had a Redemption arc because the loss of his son humbled him and now he will always be burdened with the fact that him supporting the war led to his son's death, he loses his desire to win and redeems his bad actions because personal loss made him resent his own actions and support towards the war.
But she was a monster. When she was little, she drowned turtleducks, made fun of Zuko, threatened Ty Lee and Mai to become her friends (to spend time with her), made fun of her uncle Iroh and his lost (his son). She was irredeemable because in order to redeem her action they had to do it while she was children. Iroh and her mom could help her like they did with Zuko but then we wouldn't get season 2's villain, Azula. It doesn't make sense to her having a redemption arc at the last minute but it does make sense the way she is. And in the end, we just feel sorry for her. Because we saw the effects of her father on both Zuko and her, and how they turned out very different from each other.
@@NodKrai @Usagi Lots of children are like that. They aren't monsters or irredeemable. Azula's mother called her a monster but that doesn't mean she was one. She wasn't doomed to always be that way; she was a product of her father's abusive and controlling view of the world.
I don't think "the story would change" is a good reason to not do something but this isn't really about the writers or the direction of the story. Iroh and the mom should have helped her as a child, but they didn't, so here we are. Azula is now a murderer, and likely too far gone mentally to help. That's the lesson. Help children when you see they are being manipulated and abused.
@@sdathomas5088Azula's mother never CALLED her a monster, That was never said.
Instead, what Azula said was her mother "thought" she was a monster. But, this is not true either.
That was entirely in Azula's head.
I agree. I think Amity’s story is well written from a pacing and consistency stand point, but I never found her anything special either. I think she has gotten a lot better in season 2 because now she’s a part of different stories. I liked Amity fine, but I never got into her really.
I personally think Amity is popular because of fanfic and Fandom culture, people have developed a certain "Draco Malfoy" disease where any character who displays "high class, haughty, or just acts better or more refined" is seen as a good dynamic and likeable despite usually having no personality beyond that. Like people have just been copy and pasting Draco and other shitheads like him in some form, even if Amity is a likeable dork.
I had one friend who was talking to somebody about Catra and they came to me to ask about her abusive nature and I explained that, yes, she was abusive, but not to Glimmer and Bo. She's a villain, she's supposed to do bad things. They were never on her side, she was never on theirs.
Most abusers plant themselves as your friend or use the friendly feelings you have for them to abuse you. That is exactly what Catra did to _Adora._ Time and again, Adora held out a hand and Catra just refused to take it, preferring to keep doing things to hurt her. And then, after joining Adora, her behavior didn't just stop. Sure they 'toned it down', but all of the trauma she put Adora through can't just be forgiven with a single desperate apology, and the other characters _even point this out._
As for Lumity, I mean... my friends tried to get me into the Owl House by saying "It's She-Ra levels of gay" and my immediate response was, "So, not worth my time" and then I started watching and I was hoping so much for Willow and Luz to be the gay they meant. I even briefly thought Luz and the one girl in detention would've been adorable together. You're right, Amity isn't bad, but I mostly only like her on aesthetic alone. Thankfully, Eda, King, and Luz are absolute treats and I love Gus and Willow more than I initially expected, so it balances out.
Don't forget Scorpia. Honestly they're relationship feels like the most 1 to 1 comparison of an abusive relationship with Scorpia spending the majority of the time dancing around catra, desperate trying to make her happy and defending her to others. One of my least favourite things was the moment catra turned up, Scorpia immediately embraced when literally her whole arc was walking away from their abusive relationship
@@CharlieViola100 I wasn't sure how to fit Scorpia into the comment without it feeling like a tangent, but you're right. That's actually one of the things that upset me the most. It is _incredibly_ difficult to turn away from abusive friendships, especially ones with unrequited feelings involved. But the writers showed Scorpia going through all the motions of someone defending their abuser, realizing that said abuser is abusive, and making the difficult and tough call to walk away, and that would have been _amazing!_ And then Catra was instantly forgiven the second she apologized because "It's supposed to be a happy ending", as if the word 'bittersweet' is meaningless.
Even with Adora and Catra making up basically instantly and having their last minute get-together, it would've still been salvageable had Scorpia not hugged Catra on sight. But because one abuser was already dead, and another wasn't even the same person anymore, the last one apparently had to get a 'happy ending' to wrap things in a sloppy little bow.
Catra deserved neither Adora nor Scorpia, and somehow she got both anyway. Zuko realized he was being manipulated and gaslit, and he struggled with walking away, and I doubt he ever forgave his father. Amity is a textbook bully and, while they can do a lot of mental damage, she _is_ at least shown being remorseful of her actions and things aren't just puppies and rainbows after she promised to be nicer to Willow. Willow didn't instantly forgive her and Amity is still trying to navigate being a better person. Both are different than Catra, but so far, Amity's walking laps around her.
(I apologize for the rant. I was extremely put out by the third season of She-Ra because Catra and Scorpia were on the brink of making a nice life for themselves where Catra could actually be _happy_ and Catra's envy and rage had to screw it up.)
@@MakaylaTomasi sin squad did an interesting video on abuse themes on she ra, and they make a point that i agree with that catras story would have been miles better if at least ONE person didn't forgive her. Like, didn't she basically kill glimmers mum. Honestly I do think many stories of forgiveness would be better and more nuanced if not everyone forgives
I get that catra abused Scorpia, and that is wrong, but abusing adora? That I don't get. Sure, catra fought adora, tried to kill her twice (along with the world), and messes with her during fights, but why wouldn't she?
Look, adora is shown to us through the "good guy" light. Constantly trying to help people, saving the world, and having wacky adventures with glimmer and bo, but what about catra? Are we just gonna ignore all the abuse catra went through because of adora? Catra may have chosen not go with adora when she left, but how could she? Your friend suddenly turns into a God, defects from your ideology and is telling you to throw away your shared goal and join the people you swore to fight? It may seem like a simple choice in the moment, but I doubt most people would instantly jump at the choice when presented with it.
While adora was getting praise, love, and kindness; catra was being belittled, punished, and abused. Even before adora left she was still a target, and once adora left it is made clear that people do not think highly of her, not because she's weak or inferior, but because her worth was bellow adoras. No matter how much she improved, no matter what she did, she was always seen as a failure by those that mattered to her (that being Hordack and Shadow weaver). Heck, even her supposed "friends" only started treating her nicely when she was force captian, meaning they were forced to be nice or risk punishment.
And for some reason adora is oblivious to catra's situation. I know, she's the bad guy and Hordack can't win, but their still must be punishment for her failures and it irritates me that adora is oblivious to this. In the episode where both of them are stuck in the temple, adora keeps asking why catra hates her, completely forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that each time she wins, catra is the one that suffers.
So I ask again, how is she abusing adora? To me it seems more like simple revenge for what she put catra through. At the end of everything that is done to her, adora is the cause. Catra losing her only mother figures love? Adora. Catra being treated as pointless and disposable? Adora. Catra's mental state being broken? Adora. Even if she is blissfully unaware and did not mean for any of it to happen, the fact of the matter is that that is how it played out.
I know this is a long winded rant, but it really annoys me how people completely ignore what catra has been through and simply say she's an abuser, when in actually she just wants revenge. That, plus the fact that at the end of the show she gets together with adora, completely throwing away her ideology that she can be her own person without her and her hatred for what she's been through, is really really infuriating. They literally destroyed all that character development in favor of "gay bait".
Tl;Dr catra is not an abuser, she just wants revenge for adora leaving and being proactive in her abuse and torment in the hord, whether adora realizes it or not.
Zuko's arc is pretty much:
-I need to restore my honor
-I restored my honor
-Oh wait, I didn't restore my honor(I just betrayed my uncle who's the only person in my family who's nice to me and didn't abandon me)
-Fuck my dad and my sister, I'm out
-Oh hey, I helped save the world
Yes, but tbf saying it that way loses why it was so impactful.
it was because of inherent manipulation from almost birth, and ingrained racism alongside a flawed value system.
Zuko was turning his back on what the fire nation culture in almost its entirety had become, not to mention his family and wealth. That's a huge step that during its course, helped showcase his (and even azula's) lack of social skills and ability to connect with others.
Ya i don't get why so many people go for the bully x protagonist ship either. Besides lumity i see people shipping that three eyed girl and willow alot and its like...DON'T SHE HATE HER?!
I’ve seen so many people ship willow and the three eyed girl and my god if you read fan fiction it is so weird how people make them get in relationships
I think people like Amity because shes essentially a /potentially/ great character who they wanna root for preemptively (like a weird fictional insurance plan).
I remember feeling sorry for Azula the first time I saw her break down after being defeated by Katara. For the life of me, I never knew why. But this video helped me to better understand. It wasn't just because she was always under pressure to never lose and always succeed in the long run, but because she was a kid. Ozai didn't abuse her the way he did to Zuko, but there was still a lot of psychological manipulation, abuse, and pressure going down. She only knew war, and that damaged her to the point where she doesn't even know how to behave in a casual setting.
"Zuko is not a villain and his story is not about redemption, but of recovery"
"He was a good guy trying to be a bad guy because he thought it would make his father love him/stop abusing him and when he realized it didn't because it couldn't and finally saw that he was a victim of abuse, he found out he wasn't the problem/ wasn't doing anything wrong, but that Ozai was."
Hooooly shiz... yeah I think I get it. Even watching the show back then as a kid it seemed I wordlessly understood that Zuko was ultimately a victim who recovered, not a "redeemed villain".
If you want to think about it poetically, Zuko's firebending for most of the show was driven by rage and frustration from his abuse and his desire to reject it/ end it. (since firebending is symbolized as one's drive and self-expression) Then once he realized everything and recovered, he transformed his drive back into who he originally was, which was simply him following his beliefs on what was best for the Fire Nation.
I never thought about the fact that the reason why Ozai's children have such a huge difference in the way their characters were portrayed despite having to endure the same kind of abuse at the hands of their father was because of the sexism of the writers, but it definitely makes a lot of sense.
Also Lily's avatar moving when she said "Fine" at 7:15 scared the shit out of me.
I don’t see it that way I always saw it as two responses those two had to there environment Azula even as a kid was always manipulative and unemotional but those traits where shown to be strong not only in the eyes of her father but in fire nation society. These traits were positively reaffirmed while Zuko who was the opposite got worse treatment. She became a lot closer to her father imitating not only his attitude but how he gives love and respect shown by her relationship with Zuko and her “friends” when this fails-her friends abandoning her- she snaps kinda having a crisis of identity because fear and dominance over others (subservience in her relationship with her father) was her best to connect, to be loved
Her and Zuko position aren’t the same while Zuko was rejected by his father and learned that it wasn’t his fault, Azula was accepted and adopted her father’s awful traits which became her downfall
@@OlugbemigaFalegan I think someone did actually pin down what the psychological response was for Azula too. So it may not have been the intention but it does bare a resemblance to a legitimate response.
In fact I'm positive it wasn't intentional no one would've actually thought about things like that back then. It was probably just sexist.
If ur interested I think the video is called the psychology of Azula or something like that
Azula suffered a different kind of abuse from Ozai. Azula was the golden child who was groomed to behave a certain way, otherwise she would get treated and disposed of like Zuko. Forcing a child to be cruel to a sibling is a different type of abuse. Even if they had been abused in the exact same way, they could very easily have these two different reactions.
@@samiam2088 That's accurate, Azula and Zuko definitely have a golden child and scapegoat dynamic in terms of their father, which is why Azula ultimately welcomes and doesn't question her father's behaviour because it gratifies her and eventually puts her in a position of power over others.
Their mother is also an important motivator for the two different reactions, she embraced Zuko and admired his compassion and kindness in his youth, serving as a form of shelter from the abuse he endured, but because Azula coped with the abuse by lashing out and mimicking Ozai's temper, their mother rejected her, which in turn made her favor her father and resent her brother more.
While these elements in the story explain why Azula doesn't seek out the same recovery journey as Zuko in a believable way, the reason she isn't afforded the opportunity to seek out recovery still circles back to the writers. If they were open about the connection between her behaviour and Ozai's abuse the same way they were for Zuko, they wouldn't feel as good about writing the scene where she's beaten by Zuko and Katara.
Yeah, I disagree with Lily on this one too (not on the Korra part though).
Azula was shown from a very young age to have taken after their monstrous father, and so she became the "golden child", and the positive reinforcement moulded her further and further into his image. And after losing her 'friends' because of her cruelty and domineering ways, her sanity was hanging by a thread, but Ozai discarded her without a second thought: he had what he wanted and no longer needed her. Azula was just as much a victim of Ozai's cruelty and abuse, she just never saw it because she was always seemingly his favourite. She sadly discovered that he never loved her or cared for her beyond being his weapon, until she'd driven away everyone and everything else in her life by striving to emulate him.
Abusive/negligent parents, a neat dynamic with Willow as begrudging allies, and turning her social dynamic upside down by meeting Luz to make her a more open character?
Amity kind of feels like Gregory House in that, until the right moment, both were obstinately opposed to change to the point of making them unhappy. But once they accepted change was possible, they went after it and bettered themselves.
I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that people view friends to lovers as being so cliche (it's actually not) that they automatically gravitate towards any form of enemies/rivals to lovers (which is actually MORE cliche). And also friends to lovers is nice and cute, but enemies/rivals to lovers provides more fandom drama and things to pick up pitchforks about, and everybody LOVES their fandom drama even if they claim that they don't
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend where she mentioned that friends to lovers was overdone and she didn't really care for it. I thought about it for a moment and tried to think of how many friends to lovers ships there are in fandom and realized she was wrong. It only feels like we've had a lot of that ship because some of the best and most iconic shows have had friends to lovers. Sorry this was so long
@ 7:00 lmaoooo 😂😂😂 that caught me off guard
Tw
Also, you gave me some clarity on my own trauma in the first half of the video, and I’m glad. “Being angry and wanting justice isn’t a wrong.” That’s it. That’s exactly what I couldn’t articulate. I keep being told I need to leave it in the past (mainly by my mom and stepfather who repressed their trauma and now lash out 24/7) but what they don’t understand is that I *can’t*. I did not deserve the abuse I suffered. And my abusers deserve to know what damage they caused. They don’t get to sit there and be comfortable. I refuse to talk to my aunt, and maybe it hurts her, I don’t care. It hurt me when she beat me and locked me in a closet for hours on end, literally every time she watched me. She re broke my nose. Beat me with a broom for something I didn’t do. Beat me so hard with a wire hanger that it broke. I have a scar on my shoulder from that last one. She forced my sister and I to eat bugs and when we refused we were beaten until we complied. I was 4. She sexually abused and assaulted my sister and I. And she never saw repercussions because she’s schizophrenic and has some kind of other psychotic disorder (I THINK it’s BPD but it could also definitely be NPD or just straight up Bipolar.) my uncle was no better. He was worse to his own children because my father threatened to murder him with an axe and drop his body down the back of a mineshaft (back then, my dad probably actually could’ve. My uncle was very fat and he’s still very stupid. My father is a trained fighter and actually knows how to use the battle axe he owns (he’s in the SCA and did heavyweight fighting as well as real steel fighting which uses ACTUAL weapons.)
If you think my father went too far, I have some terrible news for you. My uncle tried to beat his two year old daughter (at the time. She’s my older cousin so I wasn’t even alive yet) with a hanger with a pants clip because she was “playing too loud”
My dad grabbed the hanger, asked what he was doing (lot more cursing) and told him if he did it in front of him, ever, if he EVER laid a hand on my cousins in front my father, he’d be missing in the paper in the morning. My dad was REALLY against corporal punishment. He did not see a point to it, because it never worked for him or his 5 older siblings.
Nice use of the clips from "The Southern Raiders" during the section where you talked about abuse victims often being forced to forgive their abusers in narratives.
I really liked that episode for one reason alone: Katara did *not* forgive the man who killed her mother. And why should she? Because his retirement kinda sucks? Because his mommy is mean to him? This man is not deserving of her forgiveness in the slightest and the show knows this, so she doesn't give it to him. And that's it.
Katara doesn't spare the little weasel because "violence and vengeance are wrong uwu", she just realizes he's not worth it.
Another thing about that episode I liked was how very obviously it showed the middle finger to people who often try to browbeat abuse and trauma victims onto forgiveness. Aang spends almost all of his screentime in the episode lecturing Katara about wanting revenge on her mother's killer, mostly using empty platitudes int he vein of "Revenge is a two-headed sword" and even Sokka, her brother, tells her she's going too far. And they're very blatantly wrong to do so. Both Zuko and Katara tell Aang off for being so insensitive and sanctimonious. And when Aang tried to smugly compliment Katara on forgiving the murderer at the end of the episode, she just shuts that right down and tells him she *didn't* forgive the guy and doesn't plan on doing so any time soon.
Especially in this day and age, where tv-shows seem to be allergic to the concept of abuse and trauma victims getting justice, this one moment is incredibly cathartic.
This also plays along the fact Aang tried every possible way to not kill Ozai, even though that man was the responsible of the suffering of millions of people and could be the cause of death of hundreds of thousands of them. The fight between Ozai and Aang could still end with Aang taking away Ozai's firebending, he could still not want to kill him, but he should've at least go to fight with the thought "I must kill him, even if I don't like it". Someone, probably Zuko, should have grabbed Aang by the shoulders and spitted the harsh truth to his face (and all the kids watching), he should have said something like "Kill him and you'll be responsible for one death, don't kill him and you'll be responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths!".
Kids should be taught that sometimes death is the only way to have peace, not only prison or exile, death.
Your channel has been such a breath of clean air. I watched your WoW Cosmology vid a few months ago and I loved it, I subscribe but it seems like UA-cam didn't want to show me your stuff so I just rediscovered your channel and I have to say, I love it.
You've helped me better word my opinions about the shows I liked but always felt off about, like Steven Universe. Thank you! And keep up the great work!
When she said "...rarely can they drive a plot on their own." I thought of Damien from Spy x Family because I watched her video about that show.
"I just don't fucking get it."
Simple reason, I think: she's pretty. Some goes for the Little Witch Academia bully, she's really pretty.
If these characters where more average or even ugly, their fans would be far fewer.
Yep, I totally agree, that's pretty much it.
Yeah I think people passed up Willow because they saw her as more of "awkward best friend" cliché than anything
Diana's not a bully character though. She's just a harsh and brutally honest aristocrat who presumably follows tradition the way her blue blooded family does. The original OVAs had her waaaaay more of a mean girl so the perception stuck but the anime is its own continuity and in it, Diana is way more chill, just an ideological foil for Akko instead of an abusive classmate.
6:59 The best joke in the video, also, goddamn it Lily.
I think it speaks to how stupid the people who did Avatar can be that a huge portion of the same team worked on Voltron: Legendary Defender, and the Zuko/Azula character in that ended up being Lotor. He ends up coming out as the abused, traumatized victim of growing up as the unloved half-Altean half-Galra Prince of the Galra Empire, (essentially we’re doing Loki again here too) but still gets completely brutalized even worse than either of the clear influences they drew from on him. He’s a very interesting character in that he’s intelligent and cunning and driven, and his end goal is to achieve finding what is essentially unlimited energy, and follows his mother’s example more-so than his father’s. That is until the writers decided to turn him ass-backwards and make a random ‘he did something bad a while ago and didn’t tell us’ reveal that immediately made all of the members of Voltron turn on him, including Allura who was dating him. Absolutely no one ever questioned the story or stood up for him, and no one had any loyalty for him. And then, after shit hit the fan, during a battle Allura (his now ex) told him he was just like his father; his space-nazi abuser father. And he visibly and audibly snaps because the woman he loves just compared him to his abuser, and then he fucking dies when the Voltron group fucking kills him.
His mother literally ends up recovering his ship and looking upon his half-melted corpse, after his ex-girlfriend purposefully triggered him and then killed him in battle. Lotor is one of the only two explicit abuse victims in that show, Allura being the second. And Allura comes off looking far worse for being racist, immature, emotionally and physically abusive, unwilling to listen to all sides of an issue before acting and acting on impulse and emotion, and just in general being a piece of crap for most of the series. And Lotor fucking died.
These writers respect abuse victims until they really don’t. To be honest I think Zuko’s the only one they’ve ever done right.
At 8:08 I just had the biggest "I'm a fucking moron" moment when I saw Riku in the grooming/gaslighting section. I can't believe I never figured that out. Everything just makes so much more sense now. Fuck. I'm a moron.
My guy was tricked and possessed by Ansem how did you over looked that
Amity's design in comparison to Willow's may be one factor but another is the difference in storyline. Willow is already a well-adjusted character who instantly bonds with Luz. Meanwhile, Amity isn't introduced as a classic bully character. At first, it was just about academics but by the end of the wailing star episode, we see that's she's just a teacher's pet that wants to figure out why Luz is the way she is. That plus the fact that she has overbearing parents makes her seemly more complex then the bestfriend character.
Bottom line: Willow's a developed character and Amity isn't. People want to know where she's going with it. Luz also having an incomplete moral development (lying about where she is). Makes the audience want to fit the two pieces together to see how everything else plays out. They are seen as two equal counterparts. While Willow would just be the support system.
It would be cool to see an arc where Willow and Luz get closer and things follow from there.
Other then Amity being gay and having an overbearing mother - there's nothing else going for her as a character. Meanwhile, Zuko is still a well-developed character taking Ozai out of the situation. And Catra still has shock value without her abusers.
Willow given the chance, could be so much more then Amity but because we're so thirsty for lgbt+ reputation, we'll go for anything and that's not what we should be doing.
Just like Malaika said, the show should just get Amity and Luz together and then follow to show how they stay together.
What bothers me about Amity's backstory is that it tries to explain that it was because of her parents that she started to bully Willow, that it was just an act and she didn't actually want to do it. But on her first appearance, when she's first seen bullying Willow, they are alone. There was absolutely no reason to put on this act, she could've had just ignore her and go her way. Instead, she seems to just want to and genuinely enjoy bullying Willow, for no reason. Any further "I regret what I did/I didn't want to do it" characterization falls flat to me.
It's as I said. Amity is a trope first, and everything else came second.
I'd argue that it only needs one extra sentence of dialogue to fix that, because I noticed it too.
However, Becoming the Mask is a trope for a reason.
You do something often enough, (with support or expectation from those around you) you're going to start doing it on your own as well.
Look at those kids on UA-cam burning the masks because of their anti-covid restriction parents. Kids like that harassed my grandmother once upon a time for having a John Kerry bumper sticker during the Bush jr days.
Do they really understand all the connotations? No.
They really only understand what their parents are telling them to do, and emulate those behaviors or opinions because why would the adults in their lives lie or be wrong?
Seeing how blatantly odalia was willing to kill luz in front of that crowd, it's fair to say amity had reason to believe her parents wouldn't make idle threats.
Looking back at the solo bully scene, amity was being rude, but no where near as ugly as she was in public around her friends. What she should've included in her apology was to say something like she allowed those feelings of others to cloud her own, and that gave in to the unwarranted bias they had about willow.
Well yes and no.
Amity learnt that from her parents, very clearly. A lot of school bullies (though not all) learn that sort of behavior from their parents. Some grow out of it, some don't. Amity does eventually with some help.
It's also very obvious she takes a lot of pride in being top of her class, and puts extreme importance on studying, not just because her parents expect her to, but also because she internalized that. I know a lot of people who didn't really have abuse parents, just regular strict parents, and they had a severe attachment to their grades in school. I had classmates (mostly women) who would cry just for getting a 7/10 on a test one time, because they ALWAYS got 10/10's usually. They took those grades so seriously, it was a core component of their psyche even if the test was entirely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Most of them were pretty shy and wouldn't really be a bully like Amity, but it was very clear from certain interactions that they viewed anyone who didn't get good grades with some level of superiority and disdain and viewed some of them as lesser than. Amity seems very much to be like that, at least at the start, she views school VERY seriously and she tells Luz this in Covention - 'You think it's SO easy to be a witch, I worked my whole life to get to the top! ...'
She learns from her parents that she's better because she's from a wealthy family with power and that she needs to take school extremely seriously and work unreasonably hard to the point where she starts viewing Willow as lesser because Willow is not able to perform well in school (at least not until she switches tracks).
I think a lot of people related to that scene in Covention because they were like that or knew someone like that.
I don't entirely agree with you. Zuko wasn't a good person at the start of the show, he burned down a village in the first few episodes while trying to capture Aang.
This video made me realize that the trope I ACTUALLY love is “complex and funny popular girl main character who needs to deinternalize societal prejudice and get out from under the influence of a literal dictator with direct influence on their lives who constantly lies to EVERYONE to stay in power so she can fully help her now best friend who has decided to rebel against the system for her own values/survival” (Galinda/Glinda from Wicked and Apple White from Ever After High)
Which, I mean, I guess if you replaced Draco’s personality with Charlotte from Princess and the Frog and also had Hermione be the main character and had New Draco be her roommate and best friend who didn’t intentionally try to be racist towards her, and Dumbledore was replaced with Snape who really WAS working for Voldemort who was actually Unbridge and had been in power for both of their entire lives with no war involved in getting said power, Draco basically fits into that trope....
With amity its easy, shes white and conventionally attractive and willow is a chubby asian coded charicter.
Huh, I would have thought that Willow was more white than Asian coded, and was therefore following the writing trope of chubby individuals not being the objects of love compared to thinner characters. Guess the Asian coding makes better sense than what I thought of.
True. I mean in the show drake and josh, josh don’t get a girlfriend til he is skinnier while drake had multiple. In shows there a huge amount of fat shaming. Like fat people don’t deserve to have a SO til they become attractive. Ugh.
Lumity is a great ship, however i agree that Amity gets a lot of love that should go to characters like Gus, Willow, King and Luz
I love watching these videos and seeing a completely new perspective on my favorite characters.
Describing Zuko's arc that way is pretty eye-opening to me; very cool.
As far as Amity goes, I def agree with the others that she's just pretty. It's not just that she's thin and white either, a lot of designs in the show are pretty lowkey, whereas Amity has one of the ones with the most "pop" factor. Bright, saturated colors and high contrast. Compare that to her siblings with much more muted hair colors, or Willow and Gus who similarly are pretty low vibrancy. Amity fits in more with Luz, Eda, and King than just about any other character. I would assume this is all intentional by the creators.
Dont mind either way with Amity but yknow, waiting on actual stuff to happen with her. It could also be cuz shes a pretty white girl with a nice design. It's wild how much u can get away with that way lol
Thank you for your Amity take, I thought I was alone on that. I mean she’s fine, but for God’s sake, it’s the Willow x Boscha stuff that irks me. Of all the characters the fandom could have paired Willow with, Boscha is who they chose? Ya’know, the minor bully character meant to make Amity less worse by comparison. Let’s pair her up with her victim, because reasons. She dumped garbage on Willow yet there’s cute art of the two roller skating together?! What is with the compulsion to ship bullies and victims? Meanwhile I have seen next to no Luz x Willow art and it absolutely baffles me that “ship everybody” fandom culture hasn’t made those two a thing.
People are married with the Rivals to Lovers trope so much they are willing to ignore Amity's lack of character, simple as that.
Just watched the first part and it realy helps dealing with the gaslighting I get and understanding the situation I'm in. Thx for saying and saying so bluntly. Also hope the depression eases up and you get better or any medication for it
This was a really good video. I always love hearing your opinions on characters who are universally loved whether it's misguided, misunderstood or unwarranted.
I completely understand where you are coming from in terms of Amity’s characterization though I would disagree in that she is not as boring as Diana, but that wasn’t a high bar to begin with, and not as loathsome as Draco, who deserved a good kick in the teeth for each time he was on screen.
I’ve noticed this on various rewatches of the show that aside from her gay panic moments her facial expressions are always so painfully subdued compared to everyone else. I almost want to believe that this is intentional and that the more she spends time with the others the more she’ll allow herself to be more expressive beyond showing her attraction to Luz, and I feel like we are kinda getting that now in season 2. We get hints, keyword being hints, of a personality beyond just being a love interest: her gentle demeanor towards children, being a fantasy nerd despite growing up in a literal fantasy world, taking no shit from people when she finally hits her limit, all of which have the promise of shaping a really fun and interesting character but that the show doesn’t fully commit to.
Imma be honest I was really shipping Willow and Luz from the get go, I still think they would have made a really cute couple, but as soon as the show was being clear on who the actual love interest was going to be I fell into the Lumity ship with the mindset of “Well I might as well be happy for them” especially since so far nothing about the relationship has screamed toxicity like it did with catradora, which was just yikes.
One thing that does make me genuinely upset is that Amity gets far more attention over literal ball of sunshine Luz, THE MAIN PROTAGONIST OF THE SHOW, who just deserves all the good things in the world especially a good girlfriend.
When it comes to Zuko, I should mention that Ozai hated him from the moment he was born.
In the comics, it was revealed that he thought that Zuko was a non-bender, and was going to kill him as an infant for it.
I’m sorry, I’ve only read the one about finding Zuko’s mom once and it was a few years ago, WHAT?! Did the comics establish that babies show signs of being benders?!
@@jonmercano1138 Well, according to the comics, when Zuko was born, his parents didn't see "that spark" in his eyes, which they believed meant he wasn't a firebender. To Ozai, it would have been a "shame" for his son to have been a non-bender, so he was going to cast Zuko out of the palace(or straight-up kill him). However, the fire sages got involved and made it so that Zuko would be given a chance to prove whether he's a firebender or not, and luckily for him, he was.
Mm and that's where the line "Azula was born lucky, you were lucky to be born comes into play."
Also I'm just realizing that I made two characters just like Zuko and Azula accept nither are painted at evil at all. Didn't mean to :/
@@guesswho2816 Geuss who's correct. 😁
@@wisdommanari6701 The thing is that either way, Firelord Ozai is a terrible father to Zuko(and Azula too, but in a different way). It's just that the comics reveal information that made out Ozai to be an even WORSE father to Zuko than previously thought, so there isn't really any problem that comes with having the comics involved in this discussion.
ooo you calling out the writers for their misogyny regarding azula's abuse was just,,,so good. i always thought it was them "accidentally" stigmatizing mental illnesses but now that i think about it they really screwed both her and hama over. two powerful women deeply impacted by years of (different kinds of) abuse disregarded as crazy? yeahhhhh men really need to stop falling into that gross pit.
@@personone1382 there's a common "trope" in media where if a women is extremely powerful and/or a prodigy she becomes unhinged and unstable, often seen as crazy while the writers ignore all she has gone through. hama had to watch her loved ones die right next to her and was traumatized from all the fire nation did to her but the narrative makes her out to be some cackling supervillain who's too far gone. azula is a 14 year old who suffered from abuse as well (she also was alone with her abuser for almost 3 years) but was not offered the same grace zuko, iroh and other fire nation characters were. they were demonized throughout the series by the creators of atla instead of being seen as complex victims of abuse.
@@screamingwhales4031 Azula always was portrayed like a victim of abuse. Her end was always shown like a tragedy.
I mean Hama was really a victim but it would be difficult to create a scenario for her redemption
I'm going to be honest when lilly almost ended the video right at 1:02 I laughed my ass off
Same. Had to pause for a second just to get my breathe back.
I think the answer is conventional attractiveness. Amity is more physically “attractive” than Willow to the general audience. You know how Disney made their villains look ugly in some way? I think these shows are going off a similar troupe where conventional beauty gets the ship. At the cost of decent characters and/or plot. 😑
Mhm. Amity is the only white coded character out of all of the kids, and her being fixated on over gus, willow, hell I've seen people care more about her than luz, is almost certainly because of that
White favoritism and beauty standards play a major factor in this series tbh.
@@korrochime2432yes one of the best character in all the show is popular because she is white 😂😂😂
@@ConstantinDOSSOU-vy1zo definitely couldn't be because she's well written or anything
@@audreyharris7643 also I never understood why people think Amity and Hunter stole the show.
I love Willow and Guz ( also I am black but I dont care about the representation) . The two had the episodes than they deserved. There characters were perfectly fleshed out , I really don't see other opportunity for their character. Also I never understood why Lily said the episodes about Willow were for Hunter and Amity 's decision. It isn't like Willow 's story wasn't important. Story of character impacting others is a perfect writing. Honnestly all my problems with this show is Disney rushed the season 3. The owl house is easly in my top 5 of Disney 's cartoon
Really like the double feature format, really effective and efficient
my theory for why so many ppl like her-- coming from experience bc i'm like the only person i know that prefers willow to amity-- is that
1. they're projecting onto amity, and see themselves as a mean person that's actually insecure on the inside and thusly latch onto her as a comfort character OR
2. they've recognized amity as their next #girlboss mean woman character person and are obsessing over her because they're just latched onto that trope in general
On the subject of Azula (from an Azula kinnie who went through the same abuse as her), it's a complicated thing for me.
She had SO much potential, and in the comic series "The Search," it seemed like she was finally going to get her abuse acknowledged. (If you don't know, Azula ends up having numerous distorted hallucinations of her mother.) But they went and fucked it up right after by turning her into a "villain" again.
Azula is not a villain. She's a 14-year-old abuse victim that was just her father's puppet. She does not have free will and only has her breakdown after one event makes her realize her entire life was a lie and that Ozai didn't love her (I had a similar episode when I was 13-14 after my father called me a "piece of shit"). The villain is Ozai, and I consider Ursa an abuser too for pitting her children against each other just as much as Ozai did. She only showed love to Zuko but had no respect for Azula. While Ozai gave Azula more attention, it was because she was a stronger fire bender. That's the only reason he cared about her.
Azula did some bad things, but if she had a similar arc to Zuko, she could have been able to work through her trauma.
The reason that I feel so annoyed at how Azula is portrayed is that I was her. I was able to work through my shit because someone HELPED me and didn't dismiss me as some angry bitch. I was able to start working through my trauma because my mother actually gave a shit about me even though she was distant for a good part of my life (she worked full-time).
Needless to say, the writer's nailed it with Zuko but forgot about the type of abuse the other child goes through when raised by a narcissistic parent. It could be misogyny or just plain ignorance. Hell, it could be both.
Sorry for the tangent.
Okay this is me being blunt and dumb but maybe people are shipping the characters that are most conventially attractive over a good character?
For many years now, I've had a lot of complicated feelings surface whenever the topic of Zuko and Azula comes up.
In recent times I've been grappling with the revelation that actually, I've been a victim of emotional abuse by my father (in hindsight it's obvious, but of course hindsight is like that).
I've only just made the connection between those two things thanks to your words just now. Zuko and I have a lot of similarities: A father who will *never* be satisfied even if I do exactly what he says he wants me to but never considers what I want, and a high-achieving younger sister who, on a surface level, doesn't have that problem.
Thankfully, unlike Zuko, I've got a mother who is still present in my life and a sister who has *never* let our father come between us and never looked down on me.
I guess what I've trying to say is next time I see my sister I'm going to make sure hugs are involved. Also I now understand why I gravitate towards fanfics where Zuko and Azula get properly reconciled.
Yeah, I love those fanfics. But only if they're done right. Most of the time they downplay either Azula's or Zuko's character, or majorly dwarf down their powers. And I hate that. Do you have any good ones you could suggest?
Watching this video for the 4th time and just noticing that the puppets mouth actually moves when saying “fine”. That’s really cool.
Little witch do the Macarena is the best joke.
Theirs something about Catdora, Aside from the abuse, that’s another nail in it’s coffin. Their sisters. Yeah not by blood but they were raised together by the same ‘caregiver’ as loosely as that term applies to Shadowweaver. But they were raised together. I read that as a sibling relationship. So when the ship happened I was completely caught off guard.
There is no being "like sisters" You either are (by blood or adoption) or you aren't.
@@LilianOrchard Ah, so you say it wouldn't matter, then?
As far as zuko goes, he was not just a victim of his father's machinations, but also of circumstances. The fire nation had become pretty synonymous with racist dictatorship, and zuko did have to undergo some changes along his journey to see just how damaging the fire nation superiority rhetoric was.
Azula was (unfairly?) set up as a monster from the get go. She was more powerful, more cut throat, more in line with the fire nation ideal (at that point in time) than zuko was. She likely saw that her mother favored zuko and protected him, probably reprimanded her behavior or spent more time making zuko feel better and loved by comparison.
But what we never saw or was ever confirmed was that she thought azula was a monster.
At the young ages where Ursa was forced to leave, we saw that azula was acting (believing) she'd have no issue with her father killing her brother. Whether the reality would've changed her we don't know. But we do know that azula put together the truth that her mom disappearing was because she wanted to protect zuko. Even in azula's breakdown, the mirror-ursa she conjured up never said anything harsh or ugly about azula. Unless she was doing horrible things we didn't see, azula likely tried to justify why her mother favored zuko when she was hailed as superior, further supported by her friends betraying her for similar reasons.
As far as owl house goes, I'm very bummed about the lack of consistent screen time for both willow and gus, even with the episode that just came out it lampshaded that luz had been focused more on amity than them recently.
However, when it comes to the debate of favoritism between willow and amity, for me, it wasn't cuz she was white. I legit didn't care for amity and didn't expect her to change at all, or at least not quickly. I preferred willow for her plant powers over amitys sludge golems. I'm actually even kind of glad they changed amity's hair because I didn't ever really enjoy the original.
But while it's clear that amity and luz is the answer to what Dana wanted from little witch, the audience is a different story. Amity tickled that enemies to friends to lovers box, she was drawn thin, voiced by Mae Whitman, had a bit more activity going on between her and luz (which was fully a choice by the writers) that sparked more episodic plots.
My guess is the reason why Amity and Luz being together is so popular is because “antagonist redemption” and for the sake of it being two Girls that probably won’t even get together till the end and enemies to lovers just a mixture of those 3 things and also pretty much every popular ship in anime is either confusing, wrong or just stupid.
Dude they already had a kiss scene. It's already not a korrasami
Dude the kiss on the cheek doesn’t mean they are together I’ll give them that Amity already has a crush and Luz seems to have a crush but it’s not completely different until they are together for a decent amount off time before the series ends.
@@goldenharp5415 They're a thing now 100%
and than everyone pushed aside amity once hunter started to appear but hunter kinda just fell from the same tree but lasted even less time for him to be on the side of good
I think all of these are really valid points and I'm glad to see someone talking about them
Yeah. I don't think amity is as boring as diana though. That's the only thing I really disagree on.
@@untitled-gv3qp That's fair. I haven't seen the show Diana's in.
I always thought that Ozai just had a stronger hold over Azula due to his favoritism for her , as she was more talented in fire-bending as a child, gaining his and Sozin's approval, so he only gave her attention and left his weaker son to his wife. Making it so that Azula was by his side more and gained far more of his tendencies and had his ideologies drilled into her far more frequently. Plus, different people react to abuse differently, no matter their sex/gender/identity.
Though I also completely agree with the fact that women are not given enough nuance or subtly as men in written/visual works made by misogynistic people, which is to be expected from misogynistic people.
FINALLY!! Someone who agrees that zuko’s character development isn’t a redemption arc! Also pretty sure amity is only popular cuz she’s a white and went through an arc. People like developed characters, no matter if said development was good or bad. It creates the illusion of a 3D character
Most of his story is about him trying to find redemption in his father's eyes. Sure he does eventually become a good person and he changes but But his redemption that he is looking for isn't the entire picture either
Saying victims of abuse don't have to change is Just not true In my eyes because it Does not apply Universally. Just because someone is a victim of abuse doesn't mean that you should ignore the toxic bad behavior that might happen to be a result of it. Victims can also be terrible people.
@@Rose-wc5gd Zuko was a victim but at the beginning of the show he was kind of a cunt. He starts appreciating his uncle and stops hunting Aang and has a respectable life in Ba Sing Se so he did redeem himself. He also attempts to free Iroh and helps Aang defeat Ozai.That sounds like a redemption to me. Also he sent Sparky Sparky Boom Man to "end" Aang. Did we just forget about that? Iroh is in prison because of his mistake, that too. He didn't defeat Aang at the end of Book 2 but he's not innocent in that fight. He was definitely an antagonist for a while.
He Is my favorite character of the shell honestly he made for such a good Antagonist and then when he decided to go with team avatar it just made his character development even better
I screamed when I saw Lily had uploaded a new video
I love the topics and I’m super happy that Lily was able to post even though it probably wasn’t as much content as she was hoping to put out
while we are on the Owl House. I really like how season 2 has been shooting down all the fan theories that have been brought up. There're are still a lot being made, but those are probably going to get shot down too. Something I would love to see is this, King's dad shows up in a random episode, he's not the titian or whatever, he's just a dude, he tries to get King to forgive him, King tells him to fuck off, and then he does and we never see him again.
I was gonna comment that the only thing abuse victims need to change is unlearning the unhealthy coping mechanisms they learned to deal with abuse in the first place and then you stole the words right out of my mouth a second later when you talked about their journey of recovery.
Tbh, after the latest episode Gus finally got the spotlight he really deserved while we got to see relationship between Luz and Amity finally developing into an official ship.
Still don't know why everyone felt the need to go absolutely _Awooga_ with the cheek kiss scene completely overshadowing Gus's development with Matt - (perhaps since I am not really into ships in general and vastly prefer good/feasible/consistent writing) - I still have a feeling that the relationship was _speedrunned_ for the sake of other plots.
Oh god. It was so worth waiting for that video. Thank you so much for that. Stay safe.
i’ve always thought about this with you in mind Lily because I want to see what do you think of it. One of my favorite redemptions media is about this one family. The father was abusive, favoring kids over others and drove his wife so crazy that she eventually snapped and poured boiling water over one of her sons Face, which is the results into her being put in a mental hospital and the kid having a sumo like scar. Fast forward a couple years and one of the sons (Who is now part of the main cast) With the help of his friends stops being emo and confronts his past. Visiting his mom siblings and becoming a happier person, But still has A rightful grudge against his father. However, things take a different turn as the father actually notices the son it’s getting better. And after a Massive story event revolving around him, he realizes that he really messed up in the past with his family. He then starts asking for help from other people on what he should do, and he goes to talk to his family. Rightfully so they don’t forgive him for what he’s done in the past, and you know what? He’s OK with that. He knows he’s messed up big-time and he can’t fix that. But that doesn’t mean he not going to try to become a better person. Saying “ i’m proud of you all, so I promise you will become someone that you can be proud of to.” And then physically scarred son saying, “ I still can’t forgive you so what you did to mom in our family and that’s my choice to make, however I want to see where things go from here. Because I know one small interaction Can change someone for the better.”
And from there the family does get better. The dad buys a better house for His family to live separate in from him, attempts to reconnect with his wife, becomes a better person for people around him. And while no one in his family can never forgive him, they respect that he’s trying to change and that gives him the motivation to settle their own differences. This is hands-down the best redemption arc I’ve read. Because it attempts to give you something risky and give an abuser a atonement ark, and it still works despite nobody redeeming him. So what do you think lily?
Hey hero aca! I do like the arc but I think it’s kind of messed with when you add touya being traumatically scarred because of his fathers neglect and then turning into a villain, it could be very hit or miss with either touya wanting justice, revenge, or to become a new abuser
True but that would spoil the manga
Endeavor
...Is this about my hero academia?
Yes actually
i think it is because of Amnity's design. People tend to like characters with died stylized hair and peole ship that because she goes out of her way to look a certain way. People watching will project onto the protagonist and rather she go out with the pretty goth girl then some nerd. Its very creepy but I think it factors in.
I’m pretty sure the whole Amity thing is cause she’s a stereotypical pretty white girl (big eyes, skinny, oval face) that makes people drawn to her and that’s legit uncomfortable. While I’m not gonna scream racism I do think that may factor in a little bit with the fan base subconsciously.
Edit: just watched the most recent episode and it makes my point best in that this one was about Gus and yet people are going nuts I’ve the Lumity moments
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel exactly
What's your thoughts on Infinity Train saying "fuck it" to a villain redemption arc and melting the dude on-screen?
I do agree with you, although the writers of the owl house are currently trying to correct the Amity problem. The current season has a lot of REALLY interesting moments about Amity, like especially how she seems to completely dissociate when she is around her mother, f.e. when she acts completely emotionless during the first blight industries presentation scene
Has Lily watched Amphibia? I’m curious because from what she’s said in some of her videos I feel like it’s a show that she’s like. There’s some nice found family going on, most of the episodes just have a fun self contained story, the characters are fun and over the top silly most of the time.
So glad I'm not the only one that thought Willow and Luz were more interesting upon introduction than Amity and Luz.. I was really hoping Luz and Willow were going to be something considering how cute their bond was in their first episode together along with the fact Willow seems to be the person that grounds Luz whenever she's out of hand... I honestly wish they had more relationship time together because I feel like the sports episode and their debut was the most interaction they had... also I in general wish more plus-sized girls were romantic interests more. :(
I am impressed by how many times my spouse and I had to pause and talk about these things throughout the video.
_Reads description_
Lily, no!
I'm morbidly curious now but at the same time I want to keep at least one of my shows pure
I don't have a specific answer to the Amity question, but it does seem like a lot of people in a lot of different fandoms hyperfixate on minor stuff (ex. The MLP fandom's obsession with background ponies). I guess people just like her archetype a lot, though TOH has so much more to offer than just another sympathetic school bully character.
Yup. Also I’m just waiting for Gus to be something than black human crazy friend. We got everyone but Gus. We know everything but with Gus we know nothing. He in illusion class, has a reporter dad and crazy about humans. He a hardworking student but really tired of him just being there.
A nitpick: we don't know if Ursa called Azula a monster. She said Ursa thought of her as a monster. It might've been her assumption, or something Ozai wanted her to think
Occam's Razor
Either way, Azula knew what her mother thought so there's not much of a difference.
@@blockEdragon Azula knew she favorited zuko, probably gave more attention, or told azula to not be so mean or aggressive.
But considering we see how young they both were when Ursa was cast out, there's no way azula had accomplished anything truly monstrous enough to warrant her mom even thinking that way, unless she was killing baby turtle ducks off screen.
5:54 Off-topic: I just noticed that Azula's fire breath evaporates the water on the floor. That's fuckin' cool.
This seems very interesting, I'm excited to watch it!
“Diana but gay”
You say that like Diana wasn’t already gay. She’s gay AND European!
5:56 Seen that scene so many times and only just now noticed that Azula's fire breath evaporates the water around her. Attention to detail in animation is always a pleasant surprise.
Sucy is a fan favourite. Unfortunately because it's highschoolers and the showmakers/a lot of fans are pervs it's not for particularly good reasons (might have to watch it subbed to see if the characterisation is any different from the english version).
Dunno what it is about people shipping characters with their tormento- err sorry ... "Rivals," but it drives me up the wall.
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel That begs further questions:
What is it with so much of western media and redemption stories? What does it stem from?
Is it to do with the chequered pasts so many nations arose from?
Is it theological influence?
What d'you reckon?
Out of all the main kids the one who's coded white is the one fans latched on to. Funny how that happens
Can't speak for everyone but personally whilst I like to get to know someone very well before dating them, there is a huge difference for me between romance and friendship. The idea of dating one of my close friends, even one I find attractive, is odd and just not appealing to me. I greatly seperate friendship from romance and need to start out with at least a slight romantic attraction and have a vague idea that this is different to friendship. There needs to be a bit of flirtyness/passion there which does not exist in platonic friendships. I usually feel this more for new people and very much doubt I could ever feel it for someone I'd been friends with for a long time. I see my friends more as my family and having relations with them outside of friendship would just be uncomfortable to me.
I was reminded of this when talking about this video with a contact:
Next Gen does have a victim character. And they F up her revenge outlet.
Amusingly: I have noticed that A LOT of the fans of the movie feel similar.
In the movie, she just... magically "is the bigger person". And it just RUINS that scene.
They had the PERFECT opportunity to let a bullied child get revenge. AND have a epiphany how they aren't a bully.
But nope! She's the protagonist. She can't be petty or have emotions! She's a good girl! /S
The reason why people love those ships is because it flows with the theme that Love Conquers All. It doesn't matter if the two characters are completely opposite of one another , love is such a powerful force that it can bring anyone together.
I mean...it's CAN, but not ALWAYS. And it's really jarring to add such a lofty idea to modern shows which are all about realism and subversion. It's like adding a Unicorn to a crime drama.
Amity is white and thin and screams insecurity ie self insert/conventional beauty
I am actually rewatching ATLA right now. And though I do see your point about misogyny now, May I state the fact that we never actually hear Usra say Azula is a monster? Azula only believes her mother thinks she is a monster. The untrue and unjust belief that Ursa favored Zuko, paired with Ursa trying to reign in the troubling unchildlike behavior Ozai encouraged in Azula fed into her belief that Ursa thought she was a monster.
I’m pretty sure the reason Amity was popular from the moment she was introduced is because of white favouritism. She’s the only recurring caucasian-adjacent character in TOH, and due to a (probably subconscious) bias, white fans latched onto her.
Is luminty overrated or is this a genuine organic build up to a nice relationship?
Lumity is the best thing ever
I like where Lumity is going
Lily just feels moody that Willow isn’t the love interest instead of Amity.
Honestly? I don't care. If Amity is the love interest oh well although I will say the bullies to lovers trope is so overused that and it's only good if it's done well.
Good points
no your not crazy i never watched the witch anime and from your reaction videos you made me fall in love with susie as her personality is just fun to watch.
Bruv, Tsundere characters like Amity, Mandy, or Raven have ALWAYS been fan favorites, it's not rocket science, you guys don't have to call the fandom racist because of it.
Amity and Luz: kiss
TOH fandom: THE SIGN,ITS THE SIGN!
i mean i prefer Luz and Willow over Lumity. Also I'm willing to bet a number of people that promoted Lumity either realized how the show writer thinks or can see the future
People started shipping luz and amity as soon as amity showed up for 3 reasons. 1. People thought it would be enemy to loves we know that much
2. A large part of the general audience don't like the you get with your best friend idea. I think its because if it happened in there favorite show it would tell them to do it and there scared of that.
3. People jumping on a bandwagon.
K but I don't get the second reason. I've seen so many good relationships come from best friends falling in love with each other and I wish it was done more often.
That's legit how me and my gf got together, we formed a legitimate bond and when I realized my bf wasn't really that interested in me we broke up and I got with my now gf.
It’s for the reasons you brought up in this video that I prefer Zuko’s character growth over Shoto Todoroki’s even though I still like both characters and the series they come from in general.
From the get go, Ozai is framed as a monster who needs to be stopped, whereas Endeavor is set up in universe as one of the most popular Pro Heroes in Japan. Both have had a similar effect on their respective families; driving one of their children to becoming a deranged, blue fire wielding maniac, psychologically destroying their respective wives, and leaving their respective sons with deep physical, mental, and emotional trauma.
Because of the previously stated fact that Ozai makes no attempt to hide the skeletons in his closet and is indisputably in need of being taken down, Endeavor is still framed as someone who wants to make amends to his son. On paper, this wouldn’t be such a bad idea: A father who realizes that he messed up and recognizes that earning the trust of his family isn’t going to be easy or even entirely possible. The problem, for me at least, is that it doesn’t take away from the fact that he used Shoto and his siblings to further his own ambitions of glory at the detriment of their trust in him. Heck, he doesn’t even fully realize just how much he messed up with his family until Dabi reveals himself as Toya. Granted we don’t get a similar moment with Ozai since, again, he genuinely doesn’t seem to care about anything other than dominating the world.
This ended up being a long rant about a complaint I have against Endeavor, and I’m just a casual MHA fan, so more savvy fans of the series may try to start discussing what I may have missed, in which case I’m all ears. But again, this is why I personally prefer Zuko’s story to Shoto’s.
Yeah. I am REALLY tired of all this "Be the bigger person!" and "Keep the peace!" and ofc: "FAAAAAAAMIIIILY!" excuses given to put the blame on abuse victims in today's world.
Like, it is NEVER up to the victim to "be better". WHY are people so reluctant to blame the actual bully/abuser?
Oh, right: Because "It's easier". The bully/abuser will throw tantrums and hissy fits if they don't get their way. That's "Just how they are."
Just a random thought on why Amity got more popular as Luz's possible significant other rather than Willow; We are heavily conditioned on what defines beautiful thanks to media and magazine models and celebs that we'd obviously lean toward Amity as her character design is thinner and in some peoples' definition prettier than Willow's character design.
Long story short, Willow doesn't express the 'usual' definition of pretty whereas Amity does and so we are drawn more to Amity rather than Willow. As well as people hang onto popular cliches like their life depends on it.
Idk, just a weird thought I had while watching this. What do you all think?
That was a lot of words needed just to say "racism"
@@LilianOrchard How is that racist? That's more like ideal body image/beauty standards. Can you provide an explanation for why it's racist?
@@girlkittyplays5233 Beauty standards have been based on European (white) features since pratically forever, and Native American, Black, Asian, whatever you can think of was deemed unattractive because "🎶Yaaay, da white man!🎶". The shift in beauty standards to _not_ be racist began within the past 30 years because of rap culture being associated with black culture in the 90s and 2000s, anime taking off in the 2000s and 2010s because of the good ol' weeb™️, and I can't think of an example for Native American people - (sorry about that, Lily) - This shift to be less white-centric in beauty is relatively new. But, with many othet biases, those tend to take a while to shake off - and when it's something than ran as long for over 500 years, 30 years isn't gonna do much in of itself.
TL;DR
Inclusivity in beauty is still new, and Fandom™️ hasn't quite shaken off the "White = Good" subconscious bias yet
My theory is that people liked amity's design but didn't like the fact she was an antagonist so they went polar opposite and started shipping them in denial
Shipping luz and amity means you wanted to school bully to kiss you while they tormented your best friend
Excuse me? I'll let you know that I wanted to be kissed by the school bully that tormented me, not the one that tormented my best friend.
My school life was messed up...