I just recently discovered your channel and I just want to say, it's very informative and your videos are well structured. It's very convenient to watch.
I didn't know Jethro Tull was into photography :-). Thanks for great upload. And it sorted out a lot of my recently acquired Move Shoot Move, questions. Subscription here I come.
Oh man, I should have watched your video first last night. I had light trails on my first attempt. But looking at your setup, I had my laser in the same direction of the camera. I'm going back out tonight. Thank you for posting such a detailed video.
Oh yeah, the old 20 1.8 F mount has really bad aberration and coma till about F 3.5 or F4 making it tough for milky way work. The new S is stunning though.
Good stuff! I am going out tonight with the MSM, a Nikon D750, 24mm f2.8d, and 50mm f1.4D. All my other lenses are for wildlife! Bortle 4 and NO MOON. Last time I messed and prepped for days only to forget about the moon. Was a good over night camp tho. BTW, bookmarked your website, have a lot of stuff to check out. Cheers!
Hi Hudson. First, let me say your Milkyway video was great. I watched it several times over and each time I picked up something new. I am still using a Nikon D810 and have yet to invest in the newer mirror-less Nikon Z series. In your video you talked about using different lenses for night photography. Recently I cam across a relatively new name in lenses, the IRIX. I think it's made in Korea but not sure. Anyway, the lens I was interested in is the IRIX 15mm f/2.4. IRIXs claims the lens is perfect for night photography. The sports a focus lock, which i thought was great, to prevent the focus from being moved because of various things. However, not knowing much about who IRIX is, I was hoping to get your thoughts about the lens and IRIX in general.
Couple of things. If you put the camera in video mode for focusing, it's way cleaner than the noisy photo mode. If you use the MSM polar scope with the laser by shining the laser through the scope you can get close to the polar star. Then use the scope with the free polar clock app to nail true north as it's offset from the polar star. It makes using longer times with long lenses possible, and may be good for large prints.
I have a much larger iOptron tracker for longer lenses. I find that the laser alone works fine for wide angle work with quite long exposures. :-) I think if you want to do more deep space stuff, then a bigger tracker would be well worth the investment.
Just as kind of an aside to the conversation, both Arches and Canyonlands National Parks have really embraced their status as "Dark Sky Parks" and have banned things like light painting or flash photography, so if you hope to get a shot of the Milky Way behind of one of the iconic foregrounds, it will need to be as a silhouette or lit by natural light. Natural light shots are doable, but they can be difficult to plan in advance to get enough light to give detail to the foreground but yet not so much that it washes out the Milky Way. Here is an excerpt from the Canyonlands NP Facebook page: We all know that lighting is key for a great photograph. But did you know that "light painting," or using artificial light to photograph features in the park is strictly prohibited? This is especially important at night! We are proud to be an International Dark Sky Park, and avoiding human-made light sources in your photography is an excellent way to help us preserve the night sky. Artificial lighting can also be harmful to nocturnal animals like bats, owls, and bobcats who rely on darkness to thrive. Next time you're out shooting the park after dark, leave the artificial lights behind, and let the moon & stars do the shining. Here's a quick recap. Not allowed when photographing: ❌Fires ❌Flashlights ❌Headlamps ❌Any artificial light source not used for navigation, route-finding, or low impact camping. Perfectly acceptable: 📷Long exposures 🌙Moon light 🌟Star light For more information on rules and regulations, visit our website: www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/parkregulations.htm
We found that totally unregulated when we were there last year and actually found a way to improve the wild west lighting going on under those rules without enforcement. We set very extremely dim lights on Balanced Rock, Double Arch and Delicate Arch. They were balanced for Milky Way exposures so you could barely tell they were there with the naked eye and all the other photographers and viewers were super grateful. It was much nicer than the wild "LIght it up!", pops and flashes and arguments you normally hear in those spots at night. I think that super low impact, cooperative and artfully done lighting will always be overlooked and actually appreciated. :-)
@@HudsonHenryPhoto excellent! In all the times that I have been there, I have only been successful at getting enough Moonlight to give foreground detail without creating light pollution that would washout the Milky Way once. The way you did it sounds amazing.
That looks like a great setup super lightweight perfect for wide angle. I use a Fornax lightrack II which is a little bit bigger but has a bigger load capacity I can put a 300mm f2.8 lens on and polar scope align it more accurately sure for wide angle your laser solution is acceptable. Great choice of lens also and well suited to that high rez Z7. I'm also looking forward to the Z7II early reviews before I go for the Canon R5 has great focus tracking especially for wildlife.
I have the bigger iOptron setup with a counterbalance option as well for heavier rigs and longer lenses. I'm blown away that this msm gets just as good a result with the laser and light weight for wide angle. So cool. Firmware 3.1 on the Z's has tracking motion dialed in much better than people think. My hit rate shooting kitesurfing with my 500pf handheld last weekend was about 95% using auto area mode with a fast shutter. Check out my last video. It just picks out what you're following for you and if that thing has eyes or a face it locks them in to boot. I used to reach for my D500 for that. No more. I'm sure the next gen will improve on what's already amazing.
As always Hudson, great video. Recently I have been read about a Polaris Star tracker being developed by Benro. I haven't been able to find much info about it and was wondering if you heard anything.
Yeah, I have no interest in that device. I really don't want a robot tripod head. I rather suspect it will be like Arsenal or the PD tripod. Lots and lots of hype and then a quiet fade from view. I could be wrong, but I'd much rather stick with my fluid head for primary work and attach the MSM when I need. It's very very easy to align Polaris with it. :-)
Good trick to blend milky way exposures from a star tracker with a more complicated foreground is to use the warp tool in Photoshop to shrink the blurry parts slightly
yeah, that, patch tool, clone tool, content aware fill, etc. :-) Better yet though, shoot the foreground sharp with blurred stars, then move a bit with forethought to blending for the milky way shot. I still want to capture both in the same location, just thinking of the edit in the field to make life easier. ;-)
thanks for posting, this clears up a lot of questions about this item. One question I do have is, how did you figure out what exposure and use to use. not seems too me that with this item, one has to relearn the whole process again.
Hi Hudson I am from South Africa. What does MSM say about us from the Southern Hemisphere in getting the Tracker set up for correct tracking. You guys have Big Dippers and Polaris etc ???I have just started Milky Way and so far in 3 months progressed to shooting 1 shot only of the galaxy with no foreground. I am using a Nikon Z7 and 20mm f1.8 S lens (Superb combo). My last effort this week was at ISO 800 , 20 Sec @ f2 bit of a sinking 1/3 moon made it possible with the lower ISO and 20 sec only shutter speed. I hope that Laser pointer is allowed into South Africa but I guess MSM knows > B&H always knows whats allowed etc but they dont seem to sell MSM ??If i do buy it will be from you then but I need GOOD advice but I know I will get it from you . I have a Kirk BH 1 Ball head on a columless Gitzo series 3 tripod.
You can use the MSM, but you'll need to consult some online guides about exactly how to align the Southern Cross. For us the true pole is a few degrees off Polaris too. Admittedly easier, but with practice you can use the Southern Cross to nail it down. I'll reccomend some resources in my soon to release course.
For the new version of MSM Nomad, the V plate will be blocking the laser pointer. This unfortunately means I can’t use the V plate anymore. Ball head only 😭
The V plate introduced horrific instability. They tried to sell me on it, but I threw it away instantly. It's not usable as made. The nomad is not perfect, but it's a big upgrade.
Hudson, would you say it is possible to make this work near equatorial latitudes? You just can't really see Polaris below a certain latitude. Do you think a phone app would get you close enough?
Right on the equator will be tricky, elevation will help to find a glimpse of the southern cross or Polaris depending which side you're on. Look to amateur astronomy websites for equatorial polar alignment. :)
Seen your office hours vid on this. You get hot pixels when you 1.5-2,3,or 4 minute long photos with the Z6,7-2 cameras, or your shooting partners using Canon or Sony cameras? Thanks for any replies in advance.
It will be interesting to see if the foolography will be modified to make it usable with a USB charger on the z6 2. Have you ever used a focusing filter to nail critical focus at night. I have heard that it makes a difference for fast glass at large image sizes for printing. There are 2 I have seen. The Reveal one that has a cool quick mount and a new Hungarian one using many tiny masks on gorilla glass called focusonstars. Just Google both. I would love to get your opinion as the focus by wire makes lens marking hard and temperature or zooming does change critical focus. Also always use a lens heater as dew is a real spoiler
Yeah, I forgot to mention the lens heater, but I have one in my links that works great. You know with the Z6 and 7. I don't have any problem nailing focus manually on a bright star or planet. I just zoom to 100% centered up on it and focus till it's the smallest speck possible. Shoot a test and zoom in to check the result. So far I'm getting perfect focus that way even with F4 lenses. I've seen those, but with the viewfinders getting so good.. I don't feel like carrying something I don't need.
@@HudsonHenryPhoto Thanks. I also seem to be able to get good focus using a bright star, and wanted a second opinion as to whether these gadgets were worth it. One less thing to fiddle with in the dark - good to know
Great Video. I have the MSM, but haven't used it yet. Question - do I need special software on the phone and a special interface to the camera? I know that MSM has a cord that tethers to the flash mount -- but not sure if I need another tool to pull this off with my Z6. The videos on MSM site suggest a program that one of the young guys was using. What can I get by with?
You don't need to connect to use it at all that's for having it rotate during timelapse shooting. For star tracking, just align, compose and turn it on before triggering a long exposure.
Hudson Henry Photography thanks. I posted a picture of my setup in the FB alumni group. Reusing some of my Kirk components including the LRP3 atop the MSM inexpensive ball head. And I used the Kirk Universal lens foot I bought for my long 400mm Nikon MF lens. :-)
Well, I purchased a kit from MSM. It's been a few weeks now and I cannot get MSM to respond to me. My question is this. My laser is no good. Was shipped defective. Does anyone know where I can get a replacement? Does not have to be from them. Is there a replacement that will fit into their bracket? I really want to get out and shoot but this is definitely holding me back. Thanks!
It does a fine job speed down to 5.6. You just have to use really long exposures. 5 minutes or so to keep the iso low. Charlie got great stars that way.
THe problem being that you would have to light that, which would make working impossible. I'd sort of have to fake it in the dark with a light on me so you could see. I chose instead to show you in good light and talk through how you do it at night with a solid example. I did a video of shooting Milky Way without a tracker on my D850 in Bears Ears with a film maker friend a few years back that's fun to watch, check it out:: ua-cam.com/video/FHaKa2GHlvc/v-deo.html
My good buddy Charlie got great results with his F4 24-70 right beside me. He had 5 minute exposures at F5.6 instead of my 107s F1.8 shots, but it worked just fine. The bigger question is if that lens has coma, sharp corners, etc...
I don't think it's as important with modern versions of IS or VR lenses. Gen 1 and 2 yes, for sure and it's good practice to turn it off, but I honestly don't worry about it with any of my modern glass or Z cameras.
The ball head on the MSM is not as critical as a good panorama fluid head as it's used only for wide angle star shots. Any quality one from Sirui etc is fine. If you do a lot of night shots get a better one. Make sure you have a good tripod with a good leveling head to mount the MSM to the legs as you have to point it at the north star and this requires a precise movement.
The laser points north to the polar star. The camera can point anywhere on the ball head. For milky way it's typically south to SE. It's hard to imagine until you see it setup, then it makes sense
I just recently discovered your channel and I just want to say, it's very informative and your videos are well structured. It's very convenient to watch.
I didn't know Jethro Tull was into photography :-). Thanks for great upload. And it sorted out a lot of my recently acquired Move Shoot Move, questions. Subscription here I come.
Great video!
Oh man, I should have watched your video first last night. I had light trails on my first attempt. But looking at your setup, I had my laser in the same direction of the camera. I'm going back out tonight. Thank you for posting such a detailed video.
I've had that 20mm 1.8 for 3 years, it is phenomenal for Aurora and Milky Way. Glad to hear you plug it!
The new 14-24 is a dream lens for night work too. Both of them just rock.
Deborah I think you're confusing the lens with the F mount version...
Oh yeah, the old 20 1.8 F mount has really bad aberration and coma till about F 3.5 or F4 making it tough for milky way work. The new S is stunning though.
@@HudsonHenryPhoto Not a problem if using a star tracker...
Another fantastic video Hudson thank you.
Thanks again Hudson for another great video!
Good stuff! I am going out tonight with the MSM, a Nikon D750, 24mm f2.8d, and 50mm f1.4D. All my other lenses are for wildlife! Bortle 4 and NO MOON. Last time I messed and prepped for days only to forget about the moon. Was a good over night camp tho. BTW, bookmarked your website, have a lot of stuff to check out. Cheers!
Good luck and have fun!
Hi Hudson. First, let me say your Milkyway video was great. I watched it several times over and each time I picked up something new. I am still using a Nikon D810 and have yet to invest in the newer mirror-less Nikon Z series. In your video you talked about using different lenses for night photography. Recently I cam across a relatively new name in lenses, the IRIX. I think it's made in Korea but not sure. Anyway, the lens I was interested in is the IRIX 15mm f/2.4. IRIXs claims the lens is perfect for night photography. The sports a focus lock, which i thought was great, to prevent the focus from being moved because of various things. However, not knowing much about who IRIX is, I was hoping to get your thoughts about the lens and IRIX in general.
Couple of things. If you put the camera in video mode for focusing, it's way cleaner than the noisy photo mode. If you use the MSM polar scope with the laser by shining the laser through the scope you can get close to the polar star. Then use the scope with the free polar clock app to nail true north as it's offset from the polar star. It makes using longer times with long lenses possible, and may be good for large prints.
I have a much larger iOptron tracker for longer lenses. I find that the laser alone works fine for wide angle work with quite long exposures. :-)
I think if you want to do more deep space stuff, then a bigger tracker would be well worth the investment.
Maybe I missed it in the cryptic documentation but learned the MSM tracker only charges via USB-A to USB-C cables. USB-C to USB-C no worky.
Just as kind of an aside to the conversation, both Arches and Canyonlands National Parks have really embraced their status as "Dark Sky Parks" and have banned things like light painting or flash photography, so if you hope to get a shot of the Milky Way behind of one of the iconic foregrounds, it will need to be as a silhouette or lit by natural light. Natural light shots are doable, but they can be difficult to plan in advance to get enough light to give detail to the foreground but yet not so much that it washes out the Milky Way.
Here is an excerpt from the Canyonlands NP Facebook page:
We all know that lighting is key for a great photograph. But did you know that "light painting," or using artificial light to photograph features in the park is strictly prohibited?
This is especially important at night! We are proud to be an International Dark Sky Park, and avoiding human-made light sources in your photography is an excellent way to help us preserve the night sky. Artificial lighting can also be harmful to nocturnal animals like bats, owls, and bobcats who rely on darkness to thrive.
Next time you're out shooting the park after dark, leave the artificial lights behind, and let the moon & stars do the shining.
Here's a quick recap.
Not allowed when photographing:
❌Fires
❌Flashlights
❌Headlamps
❌Any artificial light source not used for navigation, route-finding, or low impact camping.
Perfectly acceptable:
📷Long exposures
🌙Moon light
🌟Star light
For more information on rules and regulations, visit our website: www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/parkregulations.htm
We found that totally unregulated when we were there last year and actually found a way to improve the wild west lighting going on under those rules without enforcement. We set very extremely dim lights on Balanced Rock, Double Arch and Delicate Arch. They were balanced for Milky Way exposures so you could barely tell they were there with the naked eye and all the other photographers and viewers were super grateful. It was much nicer than the wild "LIght it up!", pops and flashes and arguments you normally hear in those spots at night. I think that super low impact, cooperative and artfully done lighting will always be overlooked and actually appreciated. :-)
@@HudsonHenryPhoto excellent! In all the times that I have been there, I have only been successful at getting enough Moonlight to give foreground detail without creating light pollution that would washout the Milky Way once. The way you did it sounds amazing.
Really looking forward how you will incorporate a filter system with that 14-24 f2.8
That looks like a great setup super lightweight perfect for wide angle. I use a Fornax lightrack II which is a little bit bigger but has a bigger load capacity I can put a 300mm f2.8 lens on and polar scope align it more accurately sure for wide angle your laser solution is acceptable. Great choice of lens also and well suited to that high rez Z7. I'm also looking forward to the Z7II early reviews before I go for the Canon R5 has great focus tracking especially for wildlife.
I have the bigger iOptron setup with a counterbalance option as well for heavier rigs and longer lenses. I'm blown away that this msm gets just as good a result with the laser and light weight for wide angle. So cool.
Firmware 3.1 on the Z's has tracking motion dialed in much better than people think. My hit rate shooting kitesurfing with my 500pf handheld last weekend was about 95% using auto area mode with a fast shutter. Check out my last video. It just picks out what you're following for you and if that thing has eyes or a face it locks them in to boot. I used to reach for my D500 for that. No more. I'm sure the next gen will improve on what's already amazing.
@@HudsonHenryPhoto Thanks will check that video. Absolutely that 500pf is like gold dust best lens for wildlife amazing.
As always Hudson, great video. Recently I have been read about a Polaris Star tracker being developed by Benro. I haven't been able to find much info about it and was wondering if you heard anything.
Yeah, I have no interest in that device. I really don't want a robot tripod head. I rather suspect it will be like Arsenal or the PD tripod. Lots and lots of hype and then a quiet fade from view. I could be wrong, but I'd much rather stick with my fluid head for primary work and attach the MSM when I need. It's very very easy to align Polaris with it. :-)
Good trick to blend milky way exposures from a star tracker with a more complicated foreground is to use the warp tool in Photoshop to shrink the blurry parts slightly
yeah, that, patch tool, clone tool, content aware fill, etc. :-) Better yet though, shoot the foreground sharp with blurred stars, then move a bit with forethought to blending for the milky way shot. I still want to capture both in the same location, just thinking of the edit in the field to make life easier. ;-)
thanks for posting, this clears up a lot of questions about this item. One question I do have is, how did you figure out what exposure and use to use. not seems too me that with this item, one has to relearn the whole process again.
No no. I'm wrapping up a course on this that week simplify that. Less changes than you think. ;)
Hi Hudson I am from South Africa. What does MSM say about us from the Southern Hemisphere in getting the Tracker set up for correct tracking. You guys have Big Dippers and Polaris etc ???I have just started Milky Way and so far in 3 months progressed to shooting 1 shot only of the galaxy with no foreground. I am using a Nikon Z7 and 20mm f1.8 S lens (Superb combo). My last effort this week was at ISO 800 , 20 Sec @ f2 bit of a sinking 1/3 moon made it possible with the lower ISO and 20 sec only shutter speed. I hope that Laser pointer is allowed into South Africa but I guess MSM knows > B&H always knows whats allowed etc but they dont seem to sell MSM ??If i do buy it will be from you then but I need GOOD advice but I know I will get it from you . I have a Kirk BH 1 Ball head on a columless Gitzo series 3 tripod.
You can use the MSM, but you'll need to consult some online guides about exactly how to align the Southern Cross. For us the true pole is a few degrees off Polaris too. Admittedly easier, but with practice you can use the Southern Cross to nail it down. I'll reccomend some resources in my soon to release course.
Hi Hudson. Wondering if you have any info on the new Bluetooth version of the Move Shoot Move?
For the new version of MSM Nomad, the V plate will be blocking the laser pointer. This unfortunately means I can’t use the V plate anymore. Ball head only 😭
The V plate introduced horrific instability. They tried to sell me on it, but I threw it away instantly. It's not usable as made. The nomad is not perfect, but it's a big upgrade.
Hudson, would you say it is possible to make this work near equatorial latitudes? You just can't really see Polaris below a certain latitude. Do you think a phone app would get you close enough?
Right on the equator will be tricky, elevation will help to find a glimpse of the southern cross or Polaris depending which side you're on. Look to amateur astronomy websites for equatorial polar alignment. :)
Seen your office hours vid on this. You get hot pixels when you 1.5-2,3,or 4 minute long photos with the Z6,7-2 cameras, or your shooting partners using Canon or Sony cameras? Thanks for any replies in advance.
Not with long exposure noise reduction, but yes to all of those without. :)
It will be interesting to see if the foolography will be modified to make it usable with a USB charger on the z6 2. Have you ever used a focusing filter to nail critical focus at night. I have heard that it makes a difference for fast glass at large image sizes for printing. There are 2 I have seen. The Reveal one that has a cool quick mount and a new Hungarian one using many tiny masks on gorilla glass called focusonstars. Just Google both. I would love to get your opinion as the focus by wire makes lens marking hard and temperature or zooming does change critical focus. Also always use a lens heater as dew is a real spoiler
Yeah, I forgot to mention the lens heater, but I have one in my links that works great. You know with the Z6 and 7. I don't have any problem nailing focus manually on a bright star or planet. I just zoom to 100% centered up on it and focus till it's the smallest speck possible. Shoot a test and zoom in to check the result. So far I'm getting perfect focus that way even with F4 lenses. I've seen those, but with the viewfinders getting so good.. I don't feel like carrying something I don't need.
@@HudsonHenryPhoto Thanks. I also seem to be able to get good focus using a bright star, and wanted a second opinion as to whether these gadgets were worth it. One less thing to fiddle with in the dark - good to know
Great Video. I have the MSM, but haven't used it yet. Question - do I need special software on the phone and a special interface to the camera? I know that MSM has a cord that tethers to the flash mount -- but not sure if I need another tool to pull this off with my Z6. The videos on MSM site suggest a program that one of the young guys was using. What can I get by with?
You don't need to connect to use it at all that's for having it rotate during timelapse shooting. For star tracking, just align, compose and turn it on before triggering a long exposure.
Hudson Henry Photography thanks. I posted a picture of my setup in the FB alumni group. Reusing some of my Kirk components including the LRP3 atop the MSM inexpensive ball head. And I used the Kirk Universal lens foot I bought for my long 400mm Nikon MF lens. :-)
Well, I purchased a kit from MSM. It's been a few weeks now and I cannot get MSM to respond to me. My question is this. My laser is no good. Was shipped defective. Does anyone know where I can get a replacement? Does not have to be from them. Is there a replacement that will fit into their bracket? I really want to get out and shoot but this is definitely holding me back. Thanks!
Thanks for all you do with your videos. I am really getting frustrated that I can't get the 70 - 200 2.8 Any suggestions or info you could share.
Where and when did you order it?
@@HudsonHenryPhoto I ordered it from Amazon but just checked again with Adorama and B&H and it is still on backorder from both.
Great video, just wondering how the 14-30 results were using the new star tracker?
It does a fine job speed down to 5.6. You just have to use really long exposures. 5 minutes or so to keep the iso low. Charlie got great stars that way.
Is the MSM only for the Milky Way photography? Can i shoot other galaxies?
Great video, I would like you to make a video in practice, in the real world night sky
THe problem being that you would have to light that, which would make working impossible. I'd sort of have to fake it in the dark with a light on me so you could see. I chose instead to show you in good light and talk through how you do it at night with a solid example. I did a video of shooting Milky Way without a tracker on my D850 in Bears Ears with a film maker friend a few years back that's fun to watch, check it out:: ua-cam.com/video/FHaKa2GHlvc/v-deo.html
The proof is in the printing.
Yep, that's what it's all about and has been for me for years. If it won't print great, I'm not proud.
Is there a benefit to using Unleashed over using the qdslrdashboard app? Seems to accomplish the same thing for much less cost.
Qdslr rocks if you wanna link up the wifi. I love it too.
"Well hey everybody..."
Where have I heard Those warm words???
If you're using a tracker (move shoot move) do you need fast glass or would my FE 24-105 F4 work with the move shoot move?
My good buddy Charlie got great results with his F4 24-70 right beside me. He had 5 minute exposures at F5.6 instead of my 107s F1.8 shots, but it worked just fine. The bigger question is if that lens has coma, sharp corners, etc...
If your Milky Way lens has image stabilization, should that be turned off when using the MSM rotator?
I don't think it's as important with modern versions of IS or VR lenses. Gen 1 and 2 yes, for sure and it's good practice to turn it off, but I honestly don't worry about it with any of my modern glass or Z cameras.
Do you have any head recomendations, that are present in european shops? and not for 500 usd?
The ball head on the MSM is not as critical as a good panorama fluid head as it's used only for wide angle star shots. Any quality one from Sirui etc is fine. If you do a lot of night shots get a better one. Make sure you have a good tripod with a good leveling head to mount the MSM to the legs as you have to point it at the north star and this requires a precise movement.
My Irix 11mm F4 is so sharp
I've heard good things. It would sure work great on the msm and you wouldn't feel the pain of that F4 for star work. :)
Shouldn’t the camera be pointing in the same direction as the laser Hudson?
The laser points north to the polar star. The camera can point anywhere on the ball head. For milky way it's typically south to SE. It's hard to imagine until you see it setup, then it makes sense
Thanks. I assumed (wrongly) that Hudson was setting up to photograph the North Star. The Milky Way could be elsewhere in the sky. Thanks for replying.