On the podcast, Tom said that while this is said to be a spiritual successor to Tzolkin (it is the same designers), he didn't really see it. Three temples, using food (cocoa in this case, corn in Tzolkin's) to help pay for things, building technologies (instead of a technology track), and then the Central American indigenous theme, I see a lot of similarities. Not sure I agree with Tom in that case. But it does look like a great game.
Funny said the same thing about Tzolkin and feeding your people 8 years ago now hahah why not thinking of it as paying your workers then? It's just a balancing mechanic
I'm thinking Tzolkin Part 2, but with a very bland board. And someone's comment below saying it reminds them of Trajan is a real turn off. I hadn't thought of that, but I can see it now. Yuck. Unfortunately, it will be a pass for me.
Isn't getting the fourth die compulsory once you've ascended? (The rule book sure makes it seem that way) if it IS, then surely someone's not winning by using less than 13 spaces that upgrade your die...
I'm curious whether anyone knows why cacao was chosen as 'currency' for this game? I know of course that cacao was a valued luxury product in the region since at least the days of the Olmec, and while cacao was almost certainly imported by the Teotihuacanos, it was (green) obsidian that was, by far, the major product of the city, and the source of its wealth and considerable influence. It's been proposed that about 1/8 of its citizens were involved in the obsidian industry, so why cacao? Did the designers assume that people would just be more familiar with it rather than obsidian? Seems an odd choice.
Because, in the ancient city of Teotihuacan, cocoa was used as a form of currency, as money, particularly in the central marketplace. Every time you spend cocoa in the game, it represents paying "money". The more workers are present in an area, the costlier the action is (imagine there being a demand for resources or workspace). At the end of each season, when the eclipse (scoring) happens, you pay your workers' salary with cocoa.
Yes, the Aztec traded cacao, but they don't come along until approximately AD 1200. Teotihuacan had collapsed by shortly after AD 750. The web page you linked also mentioned that the Maya used cacao for "money" as well, but this may be equally dubious, since the Mayan civilization had also collapsed by about AD 900, 300 years before the Aztec existed, though that web page makes them sound like contemporaries. I don't doubt that people had been trading cacao in the region since before 1500 BC, just like obsidian, greenstone and jade, basalt, salt, feathers, food, etc., but I know of no material culture evidence of the use of cacao as "money" amongst Central American civilizations during the time period when Teotihuacan was active. Keep in mind that trade items are not "money" until they take on abstract, rather than practical, value. The difference may be debatable, but my origin query was about why cacao was chosen for the game over obsidian, the major source of wealth at Teotihuacan. It doesn't really matter of course from the perspective of a game, and I certainly am not interested in frustrating anyone over this, my interest is merely in the civilizations themselves.
It is part of the folklore that they are know for, also it doubles as "food currency" (admittedly not the best food nor the best currency). There are simpler reasons for certain decisions than one might imagine when coming to creative content and factual historical accuracy doesn't need to be precise down to the minutia. Having cacao seeds as a currency is one of the generally easy to recognize elements of mezoamerican prehispanic cultures.
While there are a lot of things to keep track of, each action space is well detailed in the rule book. They all follow the same pattern: * Pay cocoa for each color already present. * If you are collecting resources, determine how many workers you have present and the power of the lowest one; collect resources accordingly. * Otherwise, if you are spending resources, determine how many workers you have present; then: -- Pay the resource cost -- Place marker or advance on scoring track -- Score bonus effect (such as temple advancements) -- Collect benefits from applicable Techs and power up one or more of your workers -- Refill (if applicable) * End of turn
yeah, this is a "pass" from me, mostly because I can picture my wife's eyes glazing over just at the sight of the board. (She's an interior designer, so efficiency and cleanliness with nice colors are very important to her.)
I'm new to the hobby. looking for games that offer replayability, chunkiness without being too brain-melting, and fun. This one seems to deliver those things! if someone's reading this and can recommend more games within this criteria, I'll appreciate it! thanks Tom, great review. thanks folks!
You mean clean. They prefer usability. With more colors it would be very, very busy. I'm sure that they tried it, and didn't work, so they went with a quasi monochrome palette, with some colors. And yes, those colored things (the temple ones) in this palette are easy to see. It would be much harder any other way.
One of the best games out there. You really have to play it to “get it”. I think visually it’s kind of blah...and maybe even the explanation of it seems a little ho hum but it really is a fantastic game.
trajan looks more tidy and straightforward imo tis one is a bit too busy for me, i think i can hang on the game with few plays but i dont think my friends would by the first glance of looking it
@@xabulense It's actually between the 2, at least it is on how "temporal" is pronounced in the US. But there's no real way to spell the actual sound in English, so "tay" is the closest, so long as the "ay" is short and sweet. Also, it helps to just say it as 3 words. tay-o tee HWAH-kahn.
To be fair, there are actually two equally accepted ways to pronounce the name of the city. First of all, it should be noted that we do not know what the original name of the city was. "Teotihuacan" was simply the name given the city by the Nahuatl-speaking Aztecs, centuries after the city fell into ruin. In older Nahuatl, the pronunciation can most closely be described as: teh-oh-tee-WA-khan In modern Nahuatl, the pronunciation is nigh identical to the Spanish pronunciation: teh-oh-tee-(h)wa-KHAN Both pronunciations are therefore accurate. In fact, you get points just for trying your best with a name like this.
@@tfpp1 - No---in older Nahuatl, the accent is on the 4th syllable; in modern Nahuatl, the accent is on the 5th (last) syllable; so it's either of those two ways.
This game is a masterpiece. Tom does not like the feeding the worker requirement but how is that not an essential part of the theme?
Yes. This game, to me at least, is a lot better than Tzolkin. I am so glad it has so much content going with it.
On the podcast, Tom said that while this is said to be a spiritual successor to Tzolkin (it is the same designers), he didn't really see it. Three temples, using food (cocoa in this case, corn in Tzolkin's) to help pay for things, building technologies (instead of a technology track), and then the Central American indigenous theme, I see a lot of similarities. Not sure I agree with Tom in that case. But it does look like a great game.
Teotihuacan is actually in Mexico so this would be considered North American indigenous themed.
Hate me but I love this look. The pyramid alone is something else
Hey tom, I see this got an 8.5 but only a silver seal - did you guys up the gold seal to 9+?
No, I'll check on it.
This game needs a deluxe version. Metal coins, thick tokens, eclipse dice, etc.
Its coming :)
No, not really. Metal coins? It doesnt even have money.
Tom's getting tired of feeding his people. I guess that means his family is going to starve soon.
its to close to home for him
@@ayahoo16 Tom went all in on creating workers.
Glad to hear you echo the public sentiment that the feed your people mechanic is tiring.
Funny said the same thing about Tzolkin and feeding your people 8 years ago now hahah why not thinking of it as paying your workers then? It's just a balancing mechanic
Liked the video before the components even dropped. Thank you for taking the time to dress up for work, Mr. Vasel.
I'm thinking Tzolkin Part 2, but with a very bland board. And someone's comment below saying it reminds them of Trajan is a real turn off. I hadn't thought of that, but I can see it now. Yuck. Unfortunately, it will be a pass for me.
Dude killer vest.
How come it says "Seal of Approval" but on the box and your website it says "Seal of Excellence"?
Glad this wasn't the game in the QnA that he was going to give a 1 to.
Isn't getting the fourth die compulsory once you've ascended? (The rule book sure makes it seem that way) if it IS, then surely someone's not winning by using less than 13 spaces that upgrade your die...
I'm curious whether anyone knows why cacao was chosen as 'currency' for this game? I know of course that cacao was a valued luxury product in the region since at least the days of the Olmec, and while cacao was almost certainly imported by the Teotihuacanos, it was (green) obsidian that was, by far, the major product of the city, and the source of its wealth and considerable influence. It's been proposed that about 1/8 of its citizens were involved in the obsidian industry, so why cacao? Did the designers assume that people would just be more familiar with it rather than obsidian? Seems an odd choice.
Because, in the ancient city of Teotihuacan, cocoa was used as a form of currency, as money, particularly in the central marketplace. Every time you spend cocoa in the game, it represents paying "money".
The more workers are present in an area, the costlier the action is (imagine there being a demand for resources or workspace). At the end of each season, when the eclipse (scoring) happens, you pay your workers' salary with cocoa.
What evidence is there of cacao being used for such purpose at Teotihuacan?
www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-experts/when-did-the-aztecs-stop-using-cacao-beans-for-money
Yes, the Aztec traded cacao, but they don't come along until approximately AD 1200. Teotihuacan had collapsed by shortly after AD 750. The web page you linked also mentioned that the Maya used cacao for "money" as well, but this may be equally dubious, since the Mayan civilization had also collapsed by about AD 900, 300 years before the Aztec existed, though that web page makes them sound like contemporaries. I don't doubt that people had been trading cacao in the region since before 1500 BC, just like obsidian, greenstone and jade, basalt, salt, feathers, food, etc., but I know of no material culture evidence of the use of cacao as "money" amongst Central American civilizations during the time period when Teotihuacan was active. Keep in mind that trade items are not "money" until they take on abstract, rather than practical, value. The difference may be debatable, but my origin query was about why cacao was chosen for the game over obsidian, the major source of wealth at Teotihuacan. It doesn't really matter of course from the perspective of a game, and I certainly am not interested in frustrating anyone over this, my interest is merely in the civilizations themselves.
It is part of the folklore that they are know for, also it doubles as "food currency" (admittedly not the best food nor the best currency).
There are simpler reasons for certain decisions than one might imagine when coming to creative content and factual historical accuracy doesn't need to be precise down to the minutia.
Having cacao seeds as a currency is one of the generally easy to recognize elements of mezoamerican prehispanic cultures.
Looks fun, but just so many things to keep track of, I'm not sure if I could make it through a game without accidentally making some rules error.
While there are a lot of things to keep track of, each action space is well detailed in the rule book. They all follow the same pattern:
* Pay cocoa for each color already present.
* If you are collecting resources, determine how many workers you have present and the power of the lowest one; collect resources accordingly.
* Otherwise, if you are spending resources, determine how many workers you have present; then:
-- Pay the resource cost
-- Place marker or advance on scoring track
-- Score bonus effect (such as temple advancements)
-- Collect benefits from applicable Techs and power up one or more of your workers
-- Refill (if applicable)
* End of turn
yeah, this is a "pass" from me, mostly because I can picture my wife's eyes glazing over just at the sight of the board. (She's an interior designer, so efficiency and cleanliness with nice colors are very important to her.)
@@jcb3393 casual tbh
Audio is not good... What is that constant background noise during rules explanation?
Brian Hosterman That's Tom's alter ego pushing outwards and making direct contact with his vest.
Favorite game of last year! I think it looks great too.
Preorders are all gone pretty much everywhere.
I'm new to the hobby. looking for games that offer replayability, chunkiness without being too brain-melting, and fun. This one seems to deliver those things! if someone's reading this and can recommend more games within this criteria, I'll appreciate it! thanks Tom, great review. thanks folks!
Ticket to Ride, Heat and Secret Code, just to mention.
Catan, project L, Everdell.
Nice tie and hat!
In spanish at least is pronounced TEH-OH TEE-WA KAHN.
and ists not "Coco".... cocoa is "KOH-KOH-AH"
Btw, awesome music there Tom!
Altodromo Koh-koh source: www.dictionary.com/browse/cocoa
good review, honest reflection
I always wanted a game where cocoa is the currency to buy little boring buildings from an excel sheet. My dream is now realized.
All the ingredients for a pretentious euro game.
Anyone else in the mood for chocolate after watching this review?
The board really reminds me of the board from Dragonsgate College
Sheesh, just the review bored and overwhelmed me. Tzolkin was a bit more palatable, I'd try it over this.
You guys should do a live play through of the game
Looks exactly like Versailles with a bit more complexity
Yeah and everyone shat on Versailles, although it was a clever and cool little game.
Nothing like Versailles and much more fun.
Graphic design is a tad bland. A few more colours on the board would have been nice
A tad? It's a complete pass because of how bad it looks.
I would go so far as to say soul-destoying ugly and boring-looking.
Tad bland is an understatement. This game looks god awful bland, and is just mess to look at in general.
You mean clean. They prefer usability.
With more colors it would be very, very busy. I'm sure that they tried it, and didn't work, so they went with a quasi monochrome palette, with some colors. And yes, those colored things (the temple ones) in this palette are easy to see. It would be much harder any other way.
Love this clean look. Also the pyramid is amazing. Get over yourselves guys, it's all just false prejudice.
The gavel destroying the temple. 🤣
Hua in Spanish languages is pronounced wah, like chihuahua. So it's Tay oh tee wah Kahn. 5 syllables.
One of the best games out there. You really have to play it to “get it”. I think visually it’s kind of blah...and maybe even the explanation of it seems a little ho hum but it really is a fantastic game.
Great game
I showed the wife and she was giddy with excitement. She said it looks like trajan.
trajan looks more tidy and straightforward imo
tis one is a bit too busy for me, i think i can hang on the game with few plays but i dont think my friends would by the first glance of looking it
It's pronounced TAY-OH TEE-WA KAHN. Can't wait to play this, it looks like a brain burner of a puzzle.
The first part, it's more like "Te" in temporal.
@@xabulense It's actually between the 2, at least it is on how "temporal" is pronounced in the US. But there's no real way to spell the actual sound in English, so "tay" is the closest, so long as the "ay" is short and sweet.
Also, it helps to just say it as 3 words. tay-o tee HWAH-kahn.
To be fair, there are actually two equally accepted ways to pronounce the name of the city. First of all, it should be noted that we do not know what the original name of the city was. "Teotihuacan" was simply the name given the city by the Nahuatl-speaking Aztecs, centuries after the city fell into ruin.
In older Nahuatl, the pronunciation can most closely be described as: teh-oh-tee-WA-khan
In modern Nahuatl, the pronunciation is nigh identical to the Spanish pronunciation: teh-oh-tee-(h)wa-KHAN
Both pronunciations are therefore accurate. In fact, you get points just for trying your best with a name like this.
Or you can pronunciate it in spanish. :)
Tay-o-ti-HWA-can
@@tfpp1 - No---in older Nahuatl, the accent is on the 4th syllable; in modern Nahuatl, the accent is on the 5th (last) syllable; so it's either of those two ways.
@@tfpp1 - Oh, well it seemed like you did.
Tay-oh-tea-wah-cahn
Feed your worker and dummy player is a no-go for me. This is 2018, not 2010.
Gustavo Gonçalves it's 2019!
Feeing my people is antiquated and for that reason, I'm out.
Pwayers
DANG that board is ugly. Just a pile of squares and numbers?
This game sure isn't going to draw anyone in based on its looks that's for sure.
Drew me in based on its looks 😊
This looks nearly as bad as dragonsgate college....doesn't matter how good it plays, I couldn't buy it.