Back in the day, tube rolling was an enjoyable hobby and it was fascinating to hear the tonal character change as you swapped tubes in and out. In today's world; NOS tube prices have become crazily expensive and as a senior citizen, I'll just enjoy my solid state Luxman until it dies-or I do.
It’s not just NOS tubes. They are ALL becoming prohibitively expensive. Replacing my four kt88s every 18 months or so, has me on the verge of going back to solid state
I too have a Luxman pre/power amp now which ended up replacing a "Rogers Cadet" (15w I think) combined with the the little LS3.5 speakers filled the room with magic. Excuse a brief moment of intense nostalgia.
There is another factor you didn't mention, solid state amps have very high amounts of negative feedback to keep distortion low because transistors, particularly bipolar transistors are extremely non-linear devices. Tube amplifiers incorporate much smaller amounts of negative feedback. One result of this is a lower damping factor. Depending upon speaker design, solid state amps can because of this high damping factor, waste a lot of power trying to force your speakers to do the right thing even at subaudible and superaudible frequencies.
Tubes are very misunderstood. Being so old that my formal electronics education was as much based on tubes as solid state, I have a very different perspective. We were taught tubes and tube circuit design first. Then solid state. We were taught that tubes are inherently linear while solid state is inherently binary. Tubes are conducting in their normal state and you reduce the electron flow with an outside voltage that blocks the electron flow linearly. Solid State is inherently in the OFF state and when enough voltage is applied across the P/N junction barrier, current flows. On/Off. It is possible to bias a SS device to operating in a limited linear range. (FETs being more tube like). Also that Tubes are inherently wider in bandwidth as it is electrons flying thru a vacuum instead of thru a solid block of semiconductor material. That is why tubes were not replaced in transmitters until well after they took over lower bandwidth needs like analog audio. And it is why tubes are still used in your microwave and at the LHC at CERN. We learned math showing that the most POWER is transferred from a source to a load when they are the same impedance. And with most tube amps a transformer is used to do this power matching to the speaker load. While SS amp design was more direct attached because SS had an inherently low internal impedance so rather than matching for power transfer, the ability to maintain the current into the load became more important. That's why a SS amp is evaluated based on how well it increases stated power as the load drops. e.g. to double the power going from the 8Ω to 4Ω. Constant voltage. So comparing "Watts Out" between the two technologies is almost meaningless.
Thank you, in the many years of my audio journey, no one has been able to explain the power transfer between these types of devices in physics terms as clearly as you have. So as I understand, the tube device is able to transfer the same amount of power required by the audio transducer (say to produce a given loudness level) as the transistor based one, but since they're not impedance matched, a Solid state device is actually more inefficient at the same task? I knew that audio applications use a transistor in its linear region (vs. a switching digital circuit), but I didn't have the idea that said linear region was so narrow, hence requiring so much energy to keep up the needed current requirement.
@@quadrannilator Thanks. It was beaten into my head for many years of schooling. It's been many many years (decades?) since I have had to do the math showing power transfer with varying load and output impedance. Rusty gears up there! But it is just simple math. SS are more efficient because transformers are not 100% efficient so power loss and SS tend to be direct connected. Basically Power Supply to Speakers. One of the indicators of the limited linearity of SS is SS circuits tend to have/ need more feedback. Heck you can power up a tube and feed an signal to the grid and it will basically self bias with minimal components.
@@glenncurry3041 Thanks for the lesson though. Now I know what is the difference between a Tube Watt and a Transistor Watt, haha! I now understand the Amperes, Joules, Watts, Hertz, etc of the audio world much better...
As a guitar player I know this from my amps. A 20 Watt tube guitar amp is mostly loud enough for nearly all purposes. A solid state amp may need up to double the power to put out the same loudness without harsh distortions.
@@yogimoninc Rather metal - most of them including me and guitarist like Mark Knopfler not. Also some guitarists rather like play metal than repair their amplifier 😄
@@Mikexception Metal guitarists usually also use some distortion pedals in front of the tube amps. Mark Knopfler played and plays all sorts of tube amps with a light crunch - e. g. Marshall, Music Man, Fender and Soldano.
Years age a friend was going to sell me his guitar tube amp. It sounded great but when I asked him what the wattage was he told me 10 watts. I said forget it that's too small. I still regret not buying it.
Very important and impressive talk. I am 74 yrs and during my childhood we had a 3 band radio with one 50LC tube producing hardly 2-watt sound but the sound it used to produce was sufficient clear sound covering 400 sq ft area with a small 5inch speaker.
Great video Paul, thanks for that useful explanation and distinction between SS and tube amp. I like to think that greater power means when a beefy bass note comes along there is a reservoir of current available on tap to meet the demand of the woofer and improve control. My experience also is that when power is increased ( e.g. bi amping ) sound stage grows too, becoming taller and wider.
that helped a lot!! I was so confused lately when talking to a friend who claimed I can't run a Magnepan with my 100W solid state amp and then he proceeded to brag how well the Magnepan sound with his 30W tube amp...
My 8 Watt 300b tube amp has no problem driving my 88DB speakers. Drivers are accutons, and never dip below 6.6 ohm so pretty easy to run. For tubes no dipping to low ohm is more important then the sensitivity imo.
Excellent discussion there! To add a bit to your analogy to the car with the small engine vs car with mammoth engine. I heard once that it takes around 18HP to propel a midsize auto down a flat road @ 60MPH. So, you have the two cars running neck n neck @ 60MPH. Floor the car with underrated engine and the speed just creeps up a notch or 2. Floor the car with the 600HP V-8 and it nearly breaks the tires free, lurches, and you sink in your seat! Now, compare that to a solid state amp with 10watts RMS vs another with 500watts. Play them into identical speakers using music with a lot of dynamic range. On the average, not much difference, BUT, when that crescendo or drum wack comes, guess which speaker system will scare the heck outta ya! The set with the 500watt amp! That's my take.
Car analogy? Comparing my back in the day '67 Dodge Challenger 318CI V8 (5.2L) was 230 hp, 0-60 mph in 8.1 sec. While my current Audi A5 2.0L has 252HP, 0-60 mph in 6.2 sec?
I had Quad Esl 63's which are not sensitive at all. Had an Electrocompagniet 250 AW. Big, powerful, expensive. 250 watts or more per channel. Thought it was perfect sounding. A friend of mine gave me an unserviced McIntosh MC 240 to try. Two times 40 watts, more than 30 or 40 years old. No comparison. I never connected the Electrocompagniet again. Sold it as soon as possible.
In my experience, watts and sound quality are inversely related. There is a price to pay for high power. One sacrifices sound quality when increasing power (generally speaking, IMHO). Low power triodes have a transparency and emotional tangibility that solid state designs are lacking. Hence, I’d take a high efficiency speaker driven by a low power amp over a lower efficiency speaker driven by a high power amp any day. Paul’s argument about “coasting” was interesting nevertheless. It might very well be true within the context of systems he sells. I find that my tube based systems with 2 watts per channel never appears to be “overdriven” or “strained” whatsoever. It’s all relative I guess …
@groovesick - that's a very interesting thought. I might have to play with that concept. I used to be a car mechanic in a previous life and I always tend to think in moto-mechanical analogies. The picture that comes to my mind is a well tuned large engine vehicle vs. a smaller economy car. If you are doing lots of low speed driving for short lengths, never pushing it too hard, the smaller car is going to provide a less wasteful return on energy put in. If, on the other hand, you need to pull a large load at highway speeds, the truck will provide a much more pleasant ride. The economy car might technically be able to pull the load, but you run the risk of stressing out that vehicle much more that the other. I tend to mix and listen at around 85dB. That's the recommended average max level for making the music seem full, but staying below the threshold of hearing damage. It is an encouraged standard in mixing, so I am just kind of used to it, although I am sure others would find it a bit loud for their tastes. Listening under those conditions I absolutely hear an improvement in transients with a more powerful amp. I can hear the improvement at lower volumes also, but higher spl's are where you really notice the difference. I have a solid state Marantz unit here from the late seventies maybe. It has output wattage meters on it (cool!), and I am stunned at how sometimes I am listening to room filling music and it is only putting out 0.5-1.5 watts. So your 2 watt amps probably sound just gorgeous if you aren't the type to open it up too far.
It reminds me of recording on multitrack magnetic tape where there was a natural and very pleasant analog compression when you bumped into the red of the VU meter. When early digital recording was in its infancy. It was learned very quickly that getting into the Red on the VU meter was a No No. Instant distortion and horrible sound. Digital Recording and the theory behind it has come a long ways since those Analog "Halcyon Days" in the 1970s. Before the ~early 1980's 16-bit recordings and multitracking mixes made many people cringe. Because it was, at best, 12-bit quality. Personally, I think that helped drive the "Techno" sound in the popular music of the era. With final mixes sounding harsh. Almost like the Nintendo 8-bit sounds we had heard for years on video games. When the Nyquist theorem's "problems" were gradually worked out. With better equipment, higher bit-rate equipment on individual recording tracks. All done before mixing down to 16-bit 44/48k final mixes. Or higher resolution subjective preferences as technology has progressed. There has been a convergence to a place where subjective enjoyable human preference, and perhaps nostalgia and "aging ears", have reached an equilibrium. And music has become wonderful again. That's my take on it. Your mileage may vary.
Oh, that power race is still on. Try walking into a BestBuy and look at their recievers section. They'll even clip it for you at a 1/4 turn to see if you like it. 🤪
As I remember from my young days 6W was a hell of power I was only wishing to have so much. At time my high power mono radio from 1955 used 2xEL84 in ultralinear B and speaker set inside consisted of 8W low toner, 2x1,5mid toners and one 1,5w tweeter (Stradivari) . That "beast" with open windows could be heard 50 meters from home....ok .. in quaet place😊
@@Mikexception That's interesting. My Dad had a Heathkit integrated mono amplifier rated for 14 watts. To my young ears, it could get plenty loud enough without distortion (that I could hear). It was driving a 10" Jensen coax speaker. Yes, I sat in front of the speaker when an interesting song was playing.
@@bikdav Thanks. I am happy that few years ago I got in Poland may be the only known to me Bell - Sound Division mod 2420 for sale. Integrated. Paid some 500 USD Working but full of problems. After year of hunting deficiences it became very good stereo replacement for that missed Stradivari. Only special problem is that it only uses original 6V6 tubes - any equivalent gets red after 3 days. Nominal tube voltage is 280 V amplifier works at 380V - such was old "margin of safety" in 40 ties - not any more. Bell specialists used margin to get more power. Although I cant say that amplifier makes any marvels (it only works as i always wanted), for me it is all I need.
I've seen a lot of your videos but in this one I was actually way more drawn to the background. Also hit it before reading the title and was kinda disappointed, was thinking it was gonna be about your modular hobby I just now discovered you have which I would love to see a video about.
Yes, Klipsch tends to overrate the sensitivity of their speakers. Two examples: RP-280F, 98dB advertised, 92.1 actual measurement. Forte IV, 99 dB advertised, 93.6 actual measurement. Anyway, the both of them noticeable higher than most competitors.
@@davidsagarra9841 And if you run them with a wimpy little amp and decide you want different speakers you may find yourself either getting a different amp as well or not getting the speakers that you want.
Many of the Tekton Design speakers are easy to drive high efficiency and tube friendly 8 ohm designs. They sound really quite excellent at their price points.
Just build a power amp using the TDA-7293(4) 50 watt MOS-FET chip (cost about $7.00) . It's got that "tuby-bliss" built in right in...and soft clipping too.
Sound pressure levels in db? Could you tell us about guitar sound out of a smooth responce curve speaker vrs. A jagged responce curve speaker?. And keep the spl 's alike
If a speaker has an efficiency of 90dBa given 1 Watt of electrical energy at 1 metre and you replace it with one rated at 93dBa, that speaker will be twice as loud. The valve amp also has a completely different relationship with the speaker and is connected with the output section by means of an output transformer which has no direct connection but rather an induced magnetic field between the primary and secondary and you lose half the electrical energy in the transformer right away.
is the sensitivity specified then that low because of the passive filtering in the speakers? for PA systems 97dB or even slightly over a hundred are not uncommon
One thing Paul forgot to mention is the Ohm rating of a Loudspeakers drivers inside the cabinet! Driven with Tube Amplifiers! Tube amps will produce their rated output into an 8 Ohm Load! But not at a 6Ohm or 4Ohm load or even a 2Ohm load! A 4Ohm load is twice as difficult to drive as a 8Ohm load! Meaning a 40 watt rating for a tube amp is at 8 ohms as I stated above, a 4 ohm load will output up to 20 Watts. And a 2 ohm load well output up to 10 Watts! Loudspeaker drivers (individual speaker drivers) do not all output the same ohm rating! Some loudspeakers that have 6 ohm drivers will also have a driver that’s 4 ohm or even down to 2Ohms but that is rare! ALL loudspeakers cabinets have ohm load swing! Some will drop down to 3.5 or 3.2 ohms! and even 1Ohm load! there was a company called Apogee that manufactured loudspeakers with Ribbon Tweeter, Ribbon Midrange and Ribbon Woofer panels that had magnets on the left and right side of the cabinet that were wired to its ribbon panels, similar to Magnaplaner! The Apogee Scintilla dropped down to 1Ohm load! there were only a few amplifiers manufactured back in the late 80s and early 90s that could drive those loudspeakers without clipping and damaging solid state amplifiers and the ribbons! Magnaplaner states to only use good quality solid-state amplifiers that are capable of doubling their power from 8Ohms to 4Ohms! Most loudspeaker manufactures will not tell you that in their specs! you have to call somebody in technical support and ask them that direct question and usually they won’t know the answer! Sometimes only the designer of the Loudspeaker will have that information. There are no standards for Loudspeaker manufactures to provide the information on what the ohm level swing is. Some audio viewers will have test equipment to measure and provide that information. Most reviewer‘s will not because they don’t have that equipment.
Another informative nugget, Paul can I ask if it’s okay for me to permanently remove the back panel off my DSL20CR 20W Combo for no purpose other than liking the way a tube / valve amp looks, I mean it’s not something I’d want to do with a solid state effort.
Those are Hafler TRM8 monitors? If so, you actually use them? I just bought a used Hafler 9505 Transnova power amp on Reverb. I always wanted one ever since I used to read magazines like MIX & others, maybe 30 years ago, dreaming of working in a big recording studio. I never got into pro recording though but I'm finding a lot of pro gear can do very nicely in hifi, & often, for much less than the "hifi" market equivalent.
What if we take a solid state amplifier and use a special limiting circuit on the output stage that softly attenuates the output based on the back emf?
This is getting into the silliness of a question like “which is heavier, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?” A watt is a specific value, derived from the relationship defined in Ohm’s law of voltage squared divided by resistance. No more, no less. You do a fine job explaining the differences in behavior when approaching the amplification maximum limit. But the reality is, even including those anomalies and artifacts, a watt is a watt is a watt, regardless of how it is derived. It is also correct to note the signal in tube amplification sometimes contains harmonics not present in a solid state amp. But when measuring the amplifier output voltage on a true rms meter into a dummy load, a watt is still just a watt. Doesn’t matter if it is generated by tube, solid state, or magic pixie dust. A watt is a watt.
A watt is a watt, you can't change physics. All things being equal a test tone through tube amp and a solid state amp will produce the same output level. Everything changes when you are using a complex signal like music. The physics don't change but how we hear plays a major role in what "seems" louder. To have enough headroom to avoid clipping in solid state amps you need more power. The tube amp could be clipping but us is less noticeable because of how they distort. My car drives at 60 mph no problem, just like a formula 1 car. The difference is when you hit the gas to get to 100 mph.
I have tube monobloc amps that can be run at 30W or at 110W. Exactly the same amp, just pull a pair of output tubes. Running at 30w sounds great. Running everything the same, but a 110w sounds better. Not louder, just better. Fuller sound. More authority. And better bass. I chose to run it always with the full tube complement.
Hey Paul, can you explain the difference in two solid state amp sections of receivers, one rated at 30W from the late 70's and the other rated at 110W from around 2002... And why the 30W (Pioneer SX-680) seems to have a lot more power than the 110W (Yamaha HTR-5980, AVR). I am under the impression that the older receivers were underrated or rated with a different set of parameters that "underrated" them compared to later models.
@vqman- I honestly can't speak to your specific components, but there is quite a bit of fudge room in how manufacturers rate power. In reality, a watt is a defined measurement, and when measured and labelled correctly, can give some solid insight into an amp's performance. But, through not fully defining the parameters used, the same amp can be described with wildly differing numbers. The three main considerations determining wattage ratings are: 1) peak voltage or RMS voltage used for calculation, 2) what rating load are they running it into, and 3) peak vs program for output. Very quick down and dirty: 1) peak voltage converted to RMS voltage means you multiply it by a factor or 0.7071. So that means 100V peak is the same energy as 70.7V RMS. 100 volts (undefined) sure sounds like it should be more powerful than 70 volts (undefined), although in a lab sense, when properly labeled, they are the same amount of voltage created. True power is calculated using RMS, but don't expect everyone to adhere to that. 2) what load used is closely related to number one, as it can also vastly affect the reported numbers. In an extremely rough sense, an amp generating 100 watts with an 8 ohm load can also create 200 watts into a 4 ohm load, and so on. Same actual voltage at the amp's output. But according to Ohm's law (watts= voltage squared divided by resistance) halving the resistance you feed from the amp output will double the power rating, even though the amp output itself does not change. 3) peak vs program means it might be able to put out 100 watts for a brief pulse or transient (peak), but can it sustain that delivery of that 100 watts continuously without fail for a duration of time (program)? So, between those three things, coupled with advertising using creative license to fudge or poorly define numbers, you can end up with a situation like you described. Hope that helps.
Good point about most folks not using their hi-fi amps anywhere near what they are capable of. Well stated. So a 20 watt per channel tube amp and a 100 watt per channel solid state amp both would sound very loud at, say, 15 Watts per side with moderately sensitive speakers. Electrically, a watt is a watt is a watt !!!! There's no difference in a tube watt than a solid state watt, no magical voodoo going on - it's a basic theoretical parameter. 1 Watt into an 8 Ohm load is (2.83V*2.83V)/8 Ohm=1 Watt. When wattmeters started coming out on Amps, whether digital or analog, separate or integral, we all thought: "That's it? I'm only peaking at 2 Watts and my stereo is THIS loud?" Ah, to be young again when most of this crap was a cool mystery.....
I have a Prima Lina EVO400 valve Amp. In Triode mode it gives 38w into 8ohms . In Ultra Linear mode around 75W. If I swap from UL to Triode on the fly the volume difference is negligible. I am driving Martin Logan Electrostatics with a sensitivity of 91. The volume control at 40 percent is about as loud as I ever play it. I doubt it ever clips. The Prima Luna is a gorgeous Amp. Thank you for your excellent presentation.
@Beagle76- interesting thing bout wattage. (Please forgive me if you already know this) Because of the non-linear scale of human hearing (Fletcher-Munson curves), you need to go (roughly) ten times the wattage to be perceived as (roughly) twice as loud. So to be a noticeably louder jump up from a 38 watt amp, you really need to get in the 200-400 watt range. 75 watts (slightly less than twice) isn't going to deliver a huge difference, as you yourself noticed.
I think a lot of this ability to play loud has a lot to do with an amps powers supply. Does it have the current reserves to drive things? Of the valve units I personally own/owned, they all had really beefy overbuilt power supplies. The SS state ones that did really well with my speakers also had a lot of attention made to theirs. The cheaper amps that I could hear struggling had a compromised solution to keep the cost down. What I have observed is a tube amp does not do all that more than SS component that pays a lot of attention to how it delivers current to the transducer. However, I did notice when I upgraded for reason of weight and heat hazard. The 70 watt per channel tube integrated I used to own pretty much dominates the 100 watt Hybrid SS unit that replaced it. The old tube integrated, played louder, cleaner, and had more punch than SS unit with the higher wattage. Now 30 more watts in amplification is not much to write home about. Regardless, the so called lesser powered valve amp was noticeably more in control of my speakers. Here is the thing the old tube amp was nearly 70 pounds a lot of its heft due to the power supply and oil can sized capacitors. The little SS hybrid unit is about 40.
❤Paul thanks that explains a lot. Question, I have a Joe Meek twin Q pre I use w a tube mic called Revelation II. I'm getting the best sound ever. Kinda creamy buttery sounding. We won a Hawaiian Grammy called the Na Hoku for the best Alternative album of the year. I have a button pushed on the Joe Meek called (Iron) which puts an audio transformer in the circuit. How does a transformer modify audio? They have an iron core and coils of wire which have inductance. But why is the sound better or different with a transformer? Thanks Paul
@@davidcross890 Sad? … Inaccurate? … Well if you have a better answer to David, why don’t you just tell us? I am not grumpy, I just get frustrated with some who give comments but no reference to the facts. Just share some little knowledge with us!
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed Hi Jose, many people do not understand the entirety of the dynamic envelope of musical energy versus time. Truly accurate and uncolored and undistorted musical reproduction requires as absolute few distortions as possible. Their are so many distortion types and mechanisms. Many are possible to address. Solid State in it's greatest possible Designs (which sadly most manufacturers have yet to design or deliver) has many severe advantages over tube designs at any price. Tubes inherently have specific distortions that cannot be corrected in real time without extreme level advanced solid State band aid electronics knowledge and implementation. Some say they actually enjoy tube distortions. Extra Coloration, Phase distortions, lEnhanced Euphonics etc. Kind Regards Jose
@@davidcross890 I am politely replying to you that what you have said is correct, but also unrealistic because then you will have to phase out most of the instrumentation that was used to record nearly everything in history. I have friends who have “high end” Solid State systems to their opinion, and yet cannot realise that their are clipping or influencing bass distortion when listening to music. You will have to delete Aural Exciters, Reverb Generators filters, tubed microphones etc from the chain to achieve your perceived ultra high end sound - but in this audiophile journey if you must call it - this is not what I want or others want. Even “live” audio is not perfect because everyone - everyone is different, hears different or focuses on a particular band of audio frequencies to their own judgment and enjoyment. I particularly want my ears “massaged” in the frequency band and that effect will only happen if an amp or a preamp uses a particular PIO capacitor with a particular tube in a particular strapping technique! Most of us in the real world can learn to enjoy the best possible sound available either with tubes or transistors, but some will not be happy with 0.0001% distortion until they are able to find their sweet spot of synergy - and that could be with a tube. In the real world, most people will only be able to achieve modest respectable clarity in their sound system. I am not grumpy. Thanks for the reply.
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed I Am Truly Grateful for Your Comments. Many points that You articulate and assert are some of the very reasons new technology had to be invented to actually revisit all historical recordings and apply new impeccable innovative approaches and Technologies to recording or remastering to much much more closely retrieve what was once in the past performed. That benefits us all. I am not alone in wanting or desiring to relive or experience through impeccable reproduction what was once performed in all it's potential glory with the advantage of today's bleeding edge advantages. Any digital audio file, CD, vinyl lp, master tape, dat, cassette, stream can benefit from this and any new offering could as well. This way all price level systems and their owners benefit. Again, I appreciate your comments Thank You, David
...to answer the proposed question: no. A watt is a watt is a watt, a unit of power; V*I=W. 1volt*1amp=1watt, no matter if a tube-based or semiconductor-based circuit is used. Most of the perceived differences between the two circuit methods occur when the circuits are operated beyond their respective linear regions. Not saying people don't hear differences, but what they are hearing ain't "watts".
3:24 - Wouldn't impedance-dips affect frequency response using a tube amp? Since a tube output is basically a current-source, a rise in impedance would affect a rise in voltage, something that the voltage-output of a solid state amp simply doesn't do!
Class A watts go further too... I think mostly is that tube n class A amps ? You can push them way harder with less distortion... and. The power is so clean you can use higher sensitivity speakers
Great explanation. Question. If a speaker with a sensitivity of 88 dB at 1 watt in 8 ohms is considered medium, what would the sensitivity be for a low sensitivity loudspeaker? Obviously less, but can you specify this?
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thanks, Paul! 85 dB/1W/1M speakers can deliver 98 dB SPL at 1 meter with only 20 watts. That’s still enough imho. I have 25 years of experience measuring different audio systems with professional SPL hardware meters. Most people don’t know how loud for example 100 dB (A) is at 3 meters when you have a very capable audio setup at home. It’s loud. Incredibly loud. Even if we listen to a speaker set with the medium 88 dB sensitivity, listening at only 1 watt per channel driven by the amp is actually loud enough for most people. I own a pair of ADAM Audio studio monitors that I use in my home studio and they can deliver more than 110 dB SPL without distortion at 1 meter. Sometimes I crank the volume up if a musician or artist comes over and they cover their ears with their hands while they are at 4 to 5 meters from the monitors. But rest assured, I mix and master at 85 dB SPL. My ears are the most important tools. Have a great Sunday!
@@NeverTalkToCops1 I know. I only used the word medium for the only purpose of asking a question. And also Paul himself uses this word in this video. And please, be kind. Have a nice day.
I don't know if guitar amps are somehow rated differently than hi-fi amps, but in my experience if you put a 20 W solid state amp next to a 20 W tube amp and dime them both, the solid state amp isn't nearly as loud. To your point, they sound radically different at full volume, but it seems like the solid state amp lacks ooomph (technical term).
I have the same experience, and no real answer. But to try, perhaps the speaker of the tube amp is more sensitive by design, and/or the solid state wattage is mostly overrated, so the true (good) wattage is lower then claimed.
It's all about the different harmonics at clipping point and beyond. A lightly "crunched" tube amp doesn't sound distorted - a solid state amp usually does (although there are exceptions).
Watch this video by Jim Lill. He does a whole series on where guitar tone originates and he just did a video on tube amps ua-cam.com/video/wcBEOcPtlYk/v-deo.html
When valves (tubes), distort, they produce mostly even harmonics which sound nice. When solid state devices, like transistors, distort, they produce mostly odd harmonics which sound bad.
Speakers are designed for being driven by voltage and low output impedance. A tube power amp with high output impedance generally performs poorly on those parameters thus nowadays isn’t a good choice at all. Of course soft tube clipping sounds better than hard transistor clipping but it’s much better to have no clipping with more power.
Watts depends very much on how the manufacturer actually messures watts and even more on the power reserves in the power supply etc. Many messure watts with just 1ch driven at about 6ohm with 1kHz test tone instead of all ch. driven at 20Hz - 20kHz into various ohms like 8, 4 or even 1ohm.
Headroom is the key , have you ever owned a NAD Reciever , intergrated or power amp with the power envelope design circuit? Even the 20 watt per channel little bugger had such a enormous capability. Just for side kicks , I'll tell you what I do to mess with people's heads , I will take a cool old Technics, Nikko, Kenwood amp or receiver that looks mint but might have internal problems and then take one of my ugly Betty NAD pieces I buy on eBay that have been mistreated as far as the cosmetics and retrofit the preamp and power amp section of the old classic 60s or 70s before mentioned and then take the big classic mondo piece into a audio shop to audition some speakers I am interested in , the first thing a sales person will say when I unbox the beast is wow that 8s a super clean old school what ever it is I have brought in for the demoing then I tell them what speakers I want to hear with my amp or Receiver , they look at me and say if ibis my first time dealing with a shop , oh sorry you are mistaking the capabilities of you vintage amplifier sir , but we do have a pair of speakers that will work with your classic piece , I then tell them I am buying what I want ., Not what you think my amp can handle . Long story short I tell them if my under rated piece hurts the speakers because of clipping and lack of impedance capabilities I will pay for them , then when the audition starts there faces turn funny wondering how does this old Jap Receiver push these , they get confused and sometimes call in another sales dude or there technician and says look at this thing , it is pushing loads as low as 2 ohms , blablabla , after the confusion I will laugh and then reveal the insides of my Frankenstein piece. I have made plenty of heads turn in amassment. And have sold a number of pieces to guys that miss and love the old school looks and then needs a Frankenstein for there set up .
Bye the way, I am working on a early 90s ONKYO receiver at the moment , it is getting NAD treatment , and I love being a Dr. Fronkenstien, in the audio world . Oh and the tuner will be disregarded and VU meters installed in the space the tuner plate is .
@@jasontimothywells9895 Yeah, NAD and also harman/kardon (before they stopped making anything good) and some others have pretty good headroom. Hahaha😅 Funny story! Then you know exactly what I mean with my comment😝 I remember the first time when I really learned this. Changed from a 5x100 watts Technics to a 5x45 (2x50 in stereo) watts on a H/K reciver... The H/K beat the living shit out of the little Technics😅 The H/K was quite a bit physically larger and alot heavier and with twice as large power supply than the little Technics😅 If I would guess I think the Technics coule maybe deliver max 20 watts in real life. Blew a few tweeters with it back then too because it was a weak little shit. Never did that any more with the H/K.
What you say is true, amps aren't tested broad spectrum or dynamically for max power. The industry standard is a 1khz test signal IN with the output connected to a matched dummy load, so for example if the amp has a 4ohm speaker out, then a 4ohm appropriately rated resistor is connected across the output jacks, along with an oscilloscope and volt meter. The input signal is then increased until the amp clips. A simple calculation (vac squared/ohms) of the output voltage gives us the max watts RMS rating of the amp. Though not perfect the max output test gives a good reference to compare other amps with. Every quality manufacturer will reference to this simple power test.
That makes a sense. Surely on condition that we realy drive tube amplifier up to that 20W nominal or at least 10 W. I have 15W per channel and in fact I have no clue about used power. Measuring music with voltmeter it is 0,5- 2VAC at 8 oHm 🤕Could it be max 0,5 Watt and so annoying noise? Probably good idea of measuring amplifier power would be to measure supply fuse DC current at average pop music but how to judge THD in pop music instead of any specified kHz ? Talking about power vice satisfaction in loudness we often forget that to treat power equally to loudness we should integer the whole spectrum of sound for all peaks in instance , Eventualy fourier analysis could help but who uses it for power? . Even then due to FM curves there will be deeply non equal for loudness components. Our data at 1 kHz amplitude. is simplification Loudness is also only a approximated tool because loudness is often perceived depending on person and mixed with size of imaged source. Big source with complete of harmonics makes more psychical impression than even louder but deprived of harmonics thus perceived smaller So in worse systems people try to make it big with turning volume up.
If you listen to music you will usually not exceed 1 W of output power to drive your speakers. I have a self made amplifier at home with an output power of 2 x 12 W. If I use it normally I have measured an average RMS power of less than 100 mW with some peek values of 1 or a few W. So the output power of my amplifier is perfect for me. BTW: our ears are extremely sensitive. The efficiency of a normal speaker is usually somewhere in the range between 2 to 5 per cent. Most of the power which drive the speakers is wasted as heat in the voice coil and damping materials. What I listen to is therefore just a few milliwatts of acoustic power.
Tubes clip more,"Softly", than solid state devices. One can observe the waveform at the clipping for both types of devices. The Minibeast OTL I own has a Frequency response out to 100KHz. The newer version of same, can pass square waves at 10 KHz and the frequency response extends out to 200KHz.. So its not the ability of solid state devices to amplify high frequencies, that is the issue.
I have 100 db/W/m speakers (Altec Model 18) with a Luxman LX-38 Ultimate tube amp (30W/ch) and listen at moderate level. I wonder if I’ve ever reached 0.5W.
"Tube watts" are a product of psychoacoustics. The much lower damping factor, and the abundance of 2nd and other even-order harmonics when driven to near clipping and beyond, makes them sound LOUDER than comparable solid-state amps, which tend to clip with ODD-order harmonics. Even-order harmonics REINFORCE. Odd-order harmonics MASK.
Just use class A with high efficiency speakers and they blast and thumb as hard as a powerfull SS or class D. It’s all about matching. Untill now no SS till let’s say 30k will sound as natural and realistic as tubes.
@@LuxAudio389 No. You're thinking if Monkey Wards. I do remember the Sears stereo department though. The wall o' speakers was right next to the Kenmore vacuum department. You had to crank uo the recievers to drown out the noise from the uprights.
Alot of watts get lost to heat before converting to sound energy. Power is misleading as a main decision to buy an amp. You could both have 100 watt amps but one has crap parts and design to it with high noise and distortion and the other as clean as a whistle. This mainly comes down to parts used with great design. The lessor known companies starting out and wanting to get noticed tend to do ultra quality and lower than market pricing to get their brand out there and then raise the pricing as they have to for staying in business. Loudness alone doesn't usually hurt your hearing it's the distortion. You can play crystal clear music at 85db and enough to make you tap out. You could listen to high distortion at 75db and damage the ears more. I have the VAC pair of mono tube amps the 452 music blocks. The cheaper tube amps tend to have heavy noise, cheap quality tubes, excessive constant heat throw off, etc. One of the downside to the tube amps is at least with mine it will play right away but to warm up good needs to be on an hour or more to get into the sweet spot. Solid state good to go right away in most cases. So learn about what materials are used in a manufacturers product, how it is designed, and how it sounds. Do not just go off of reviews in magazines, etc. Love the car analogy. One is straining and the other is coasting.
If I recall tube amps generate even order harmonics when clipped which are ears dont mind so much compared to the odd order harmonics of a clipping solid state amp.
That is the bs written in print. Reality is DISTORTIONS ARE JUST THAT,DISTORTIONS. I prefer clearly as absolute close to zero DISTORTION of All types as possible. That automatically eliminates ALL tube Amps at any price
@@davidcross890 Everything in balance David. Life is full of natural distortions, and we as people find comfort in that. Eliminating distortion completely from a musical passage is considered unnatural by our brains. This is why tube amplifiers are preferred by many. Remember life is a balance, in order for you to know how high up on a platform you are, you need to know the opposite end, "where the ground is." Have a good day.
@@MrCarlsonsLab Natural Life without human assistance or intervention....Finds Balance. It appears your assumptions are quite amazing and deeply flawed PROVABLE by experience gathered in advanced research regarding the ACTUAL neural process of how hearing is interpreted and processed by the brain and also actual signals integrity intelligence. You may want to consider what you don't know by fact and what you have not personally mastered. Respectfully, you may end up challenged by an individual who has actually mastered new innovations that you may be genuinely clueless about. Those specific issues of gnosis may not be within your current wheelhouses. Actual Original occurring events are by nature DISTORTION FREE as specifically they are the actual original events that they solely are before any intervention or interference. Further, I am quite aware as to the station or platform I reside at..you may be quite shocked. I have my wheelhouses of utter pinnacle expertise that still seem to have no peer. Outside those particular WHEELHOUSES I have So Very Much to learn. I have not arrived at my station or platform by doing the same broken or flawed things most others do. My Inventions and innovations and their products offshoots affect and effect most every person on this planet including I am sure you. So actually doing their own actual research and gaining an uncommon knowing may assist most from taking many a flawed path, unless the intent is to learn how many ways to experience failure. We all have a CHOICE to become more. I choose the path of continued excellence and to become more and honor my creation. I am open to learning more. With that, if You believe You can openly and publicly via UA-cam demonstrate that You have a Superior Electronics End Measurable Result that Supercedes My Wheelhouse initiatives and technologies that I have accomplished I openly welcome You to attempt to Publicly Prove my research flawed. If You somehow could prove me wrong regarding my wheelhouses I would learn more. Best Regards David
@@davidcross890 Hi David. Interesting write. I'm not out to prove anything to anyone, or get into the useless "look at me" pride filled responses, I'm a hard facts and "show me the data" type of fellow. If you would like to learn more, you can just click my channel name. I use a lot of test equipment during designs, you may find this aspect interesting, (or not?) Have a good evening.
@@MrCarlsonsLab Respectfully, STEP UP TO THE PLATE. YOUR TEST EQUIPMENT WILL SHOW YOU THAT RESPECTFULLY, YOU REALISTICALLY HAVE MUCH TO LEARN. I HAVE TEST EQUIPMENT TOO...MUCH ADVANCED TEST EQUIPMENT. SOME OF WHICH I CREATED TO ADVANCE THE EVER EVOLVING BLEEDING EDGE STATE OF THE ART. I CURRENTLY DO NOT HAVE A UA-cam CHANNEL, YOU DO AND I AM ALL ABOUT THE FACTS. I OFFER YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO PUBLICLY PROVE MY ASSUMPTIONS INCORRECT. WELL?
Maybe the tube amp is Class A versus his solid state amp is Class AB. Could not the difference in Class watts be the reason he thinks the tube watts drive his speakers similar to the higher wattage solid state amp?
My Yamaha B-2 is as creamy and as warm as could be. I'm not interested in tube amps because I don't want to spend more money. The danger of it may or not be in the best interest to my wallet. Haha! I've never heard a tube amp to be honest. I think that I will just focus on upgrading my speakers. I live in Japan. Don't be jealous of my options. I say that in a fun way, of course. I'm currently looking for a pair of Yamaha NS-2000. I'm interested in the NS-1000, but subwoofers are hard to get here. Although the Yamaha Yst-Sw1000 has caught my attention. They're in abundance in Japan.
I could be wrong but I always have the notion that it had to do with current versus voltage. Like a solid state amp is very good at voltage but not so good at current whereas a tube amp is great at current but not so good at voltage.now current is what drives the speakers and so you would in theory need less tube watts to produce a certain, let's say loudness or perceived power then you would with solid state. Granted I could be wrong about the whole thing so correct me if I am, seems like I read that somewhere on a forum somewhere perhaps but anyway I just thought I would share that.
@Amb - not quite. You are describing two different characteristics. One is efficiency, or the amps ability to deliver an output signal vs energy used by the amplifier (better at current vs voltage, akin to mpg efficiency of a car). The other is the measurement of the actual signal put out (actual output wattage, akin to the speed the car is travelling). Once that output signal leaves the amp it is measured for AC RMS voltage (not current). That voltage is then squared and then divided by the resistance of whatever load the amp is driving. The resulting number is power, or watts. Again using the car analogy, you can say it might take an old pickup truck more time and fuel to reach 60mph than a sports car (efficiency), but in the end, they both are travelling 60mph (wattage). Doesn't matter if you go on a bike, in a car, or just can run inhumanly fast. Doesn't matter how you get there, 60mph is 60mph for every moving thing. Same with watts. Back to amps, you may have one amp that takes more current to generate that same output voltage than the other, using up more energy in the process But the RMS meter doesn't care about that. If you have one amp generating 25VAC RMS efficiently into an 8 ohm load, and another that does it inefficiently using twice the energy but still outputting 25VAC RMS, they are still both 78-ish watts output. Watts is not dependent on tube, solid state, efficiency, or magic fairy dust. It is a defined relationship spelled out in Ohm's law as voltage squared divided by resistance. How you derive that voltage does matter one iota. A watt is a watt is a watt. It is defined and immutable, regardless of the device providing it. Hope that helps.
Efficiency rating (in percent) is related, but not the same as sensitivity rating (dB SPL/W). Usual efficiency values for HiFi speakers and studio monitors are between 0.2 % and 2 % (at best). So you may put 10 Watt amp power in and get about 1 Watt sound power out.
@@Fastvoice Agreed, I purposely said efficiency and not sensitivity. I’m not sure how you would measure the efficiency of a loudspeaker as it’s a hypothetical notion.
Iam no techie. The only thing I know: on my former class d 180 Watts amplifier (nad m32) the volume was on 3 o'clock. On my new tube amp (ear 861, 32 watts) the volume is not even on 10 o'clock. Very strange for me. Speakers are devore o/93
@@ThinkingBetter I see it other in my case . I listen to solid and tube depending on my day and for sure tube is more tight in low range and solid makes it more "buffy". When I need more low vibrations I choose solid. Tube makes bigger scene . But it is just in my case. Never forget that solid has coupling capacitor which grows impedance and shifts phase at low range Tube transformer is even opposite lowering impedance and in phase with speaker inductance
My doughter husband plays in loud rock band. Two months ago he received from specialist his order - new tube scene amplifier with one EL84 for his blues harmony. ONE.
@@geddylee501 You love them? Interesting, may be I try too 🤪 Sometime few days in raw I listen only to solid. Which is 15Watts Arena radio from Denmark having germanium power end. I like to have two options for detecting any flowing changes
Many Comments here clearly show THAT THEIR Individual POSTER has VIRTUALLY ZERO REAL KNOWLEDGE of virtually near absolute linearity in amplification or power assignment design. It is no shock that so many of these systems need SERIOUS HELP when their owners are so used to or make excuses for their ugly distortions with every note that they attempt to represent or reproduce
If you like your tubes you will have to give up on getting any good bass and don’t forget about the maintenance with tubes if you listen to a lot of music often they deteriorate over time and most of the time you don’t notice the loss when they start to go no thx solid state for me always
Maybe you get a better feeling by pushing that little race car engine a bit more than just cruising along in a big boring bus with a huge engine? Just a thought.
The most musical amps in the world recognized by most audio files ,are low watt tube amps , because only in the first watt counts at regular listening levels
Tube Amps at ANY PRICE at the 1st watts level and beyond do not stand a chance at maintaining absolute signal integrity via ultra high end reproduction standards.
@@davidcross890 Why? Because of harmonics? And what about the harmonics that people want? If they care at all? And what is ultra high end? Like 0.0001% if people out there? What happened to the real world sweet old guy who just wants to listen to his 3 watt 6V6 power amp at low volume levels with a bit of smooth whiskey and some crummy old records from the 50’s that sound great to him? Just asking.
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed That sounds like an enjoyable experience for some undoubtedly. Respectfully, I am into pushing towards enjoyable reproduction via potential perfection of signal chain integrity through advanced sciences.
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed ultra high end for me is ENJOYABLE Compression and Rarefaction of RARIFIED AIR AND PROVABLY THE BEST OF THE BEST. KUDOS to All Those that Provide those experiences. Of Course, To each their own
@@davidcross890 Listen to an OTL, and not at, "ANY PRICE", but built from a kit. Spending huge amounts of cash for parts, not to mention mundane Topology, that cost 1/1000th the retail price, is silly. But it does give one, bragging rights. If you require, "Ultra high end reproduction", check out Transcendent Sound's 300B OTL and Audio Note Kit's Level V DAC. You'll need a Hakko soldering station and a multimeter. Although, if you enjoy 2 inch thick CNC, billet Aluminum, chassis, forget it.
let me help you 1. tube watts can be class a so no switching just pure power 2. tube amps soft clip vs solid state hard clipping 3. they don't sound like shit 4. they look better and many are point to point wiring vs cheap pcb boards 5. tubes are better at rectification 6. tubes drive voltage while solid state has limited voltage and more current. (speakers are voltage driven not actually current driven as most think) 7. tubes prefer smoother impedance curves but are actually better equipped in driving steep curves because they run higher voltages 8. they can swing more voltage
Tube watts vs solid state watts…. All you have to do is plug a guitar into a 30 watt VOX AC30, and then just try to get anywheres near the same volume with a 30 watt solid state amp…. Not even close.
Wow! Thanks David - I’m glad I’m allowed to listen to my humble power amps with my lowly tubes single ended pre with freedom. The best comment I’ve come across on this un assuming thread.
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed You of course are entitled to your thoughts or choice of gear. Perfection or the attempt to achieve it are RARIFIED and obviously not for some.
@@Fastvoice By some people. I'm a midwesterner raised by a college English teacher, and I have always said [tjuːb] for tube and [tjuːn] for tune. There is a *subtle* diphthong in educated pronunciation.
@@christopheroliver148 Let's say both variations are not globally wrong - at least that's what our foreign words pronunciation database here for german public radio & TV says (I'm working as a voice talent). 🙂
Back in the day, tube rolling was an enjoyable hobby and it was fascinating to hear the tonal character change as you swapped tubes in and out. In today's world; NOS tube prices have become crazily expensive and as a senior citizen, I'll just enjoy my solid state Luxman until it dies-or I do.
L0L As another senior citizen, I found that funny! Let's just say..."Getting a LIFE sentence from the courts does NOT scare me!" 😄
It’s not just NOS tubes. They are ALL becoming prohibitively expensive. Replacing my four kt88s every 18 months or so, has me on the verge of going back to solid state
I too have a Luxman pre/power amp now which ended up replacing a "Rogers Cadet" (15w I think) combined with the the little LS3.5 speakers filled the room with magic. Excuse a brief moment of intense nostalgia.
There is another factor you didn't mention, solid state amps have very high amounts of negative feedback to keep distortion low because transistors, particularly bipolar transistors are extremely non-linear devices. Tube amplifiers incorporate much smaller amounts of negative feedback. One result of this is a lower damping factor. Depending upon speaker design, solid state amps can because of this high damping factor, waste a lot of power trying to force your speakers to do the right thing even at subaudible and superaudible frequencies.
Gotta be amazed at PS Audio they now have their own telephone exchange too with Paul the operator in his spare time. 😀
Tubes are very misunderstood. Being so old that my formal electronics education was as much based on tubes as solid state, I have a very different perspective. We were taught tubes and tube circuit design first. Then solid state. We were taught that tubes are inherently linear while solid state is inherently binary. Tubes are conducting in their normal state and you reduce the electron flow with an outside voltage that blocks the electron flow linearly. Solid State is inherently in the OFF state and when enough voltage is applied across the P/N junction barrier, current flows. On/Off. It is possible to bias a SS device to operating in a limited linear range. (FETs being more tube like). Also that Tubes are inherently wider in bandwidth as it is electrons flying thru a vacuum instead of thru a solid block of semiconductor material. That is why tubes were not replaced in transmitters until well after they took over lower bandwidth needs like analog audio. And it is why tubes are still used in your microwave and at the LHC at CERN.
We learned math showing that the most POWER is transferred from a source to a load when they are the same impedance. And with most tube amps a transformer is used to do this power matching to the speaker load.
While SS amp design was more direct attached because SS had an inherently low internal impedance so rather than matching for power transfer, the ability to maintain the current into the load became more important. That's why a SS amp is evaluated based on how well it increases stated power as the load drops. e.g. to double the power going from the 8Ω to 4Ω. Constant voltage.
So comparing "Watts Out" between the two technologies is almost meaningless.
Thank you, in the many years of my audio journey, no one has been able to explain the power transfer between these types of devices in physics terms as clearly as you have.
So as I understand, the tube device is able to transfer the same amount of power required by the audio transducer (say to produce a given loudness level) as the transistor based one, but since they're not impedance matched, a Solid state device is actually more inefficient at the same task?
I knew that audio applications use a transistor in its linear region (vs. a switching digital circuit), but I didn't have the idea that said linear region was so narrow, hence requiring so much energy to keep up the needed current requirement.
@@quadrannilator Thanks. It was beaten into my head for many years of schooling. It's been many many years (decades?) since I have had to do the math showing power transfer with varying load and output impedance. Rusty gears up there! But it is just simple math. SS are more efficient because transformers are not 100% efficient so power loss and SS tend to be direct connected. Basically Power Supply to Speakers.
One of the indicators of the limited linearity of SS is SS circuits tend to have/ need more feedback. Heck you can power up a tube and feed an signal to the grid and it will basically self bias with minimal components.
@@glenncurry3041 Thanks for the lesson though. Now I know what is the difference between a Tube Watt and a Transistor Watt, haha! I now understand the Amperes, Joules, Watts, Hertz, etc of the audio world much better...
@@quadrannilator Except Audio might be a bit like they say about Quantum Mechanics. if you think you understand it, you don't! 🙂
As a guitar player I know this from my amps. A 20 Watt tube guitar amp is mostly loud enough for nearly all purposes. A solid state amp may need up to double the power to put out the same loudness without harsh distortions.
Plus guitarists usually love a bit of crunch from the tubes distorting 👍
@@yogimoninc Rather metal - most of them including me and guitarist like Mark Knopfler not. Also some guitarists rather like play metal than repair their amplifier 😄
@@Mikexception Metal guitarists usually also use some distortion pedals in front of the tube amps. Mark Knopfler played and plays all sorts of tube amps with a light crunch - e. g. Marshall, Music Man, Fender and Soldano.
Years age a friend was going to sell me his guitar tube amp. It sounded great but when I asked him what the wattage was he told me 10 watts. I said forget it that's too small. I still regret not buying it.
@@jeffwalther You're not the only one that fell in that trap. 😉
Very important and impressive talk. I am 74 yrs and during my childhood we had a 3 band radio with one 50LC tube producing hardly 2-watt sound but the sound it used to produce was sufficient clear sound covering 400 sq ft area with a small 5inch speaker.
Great video Paul, thanks for that useful explanation and distinction between SS and tube amp. I like to think that greater power means when a beefy bass note comes along there is a reservoir of current available on tap to meet the demand of the woofer and improve control. My experience also is that when power is increased ( e.g. bi amping ) sound stage grows too, becoming taller and wider.
Beautifully explained. Thank you !
that helped a lot!! I was so confused lately when talking to a friend who claimed I can't run a Magnepan with my 100W solid state amp and then he proceeded to brag how well the Magnepan sound with his 30W tube amp...
That looks just like the Moog behind you there Paul.
Thank you Paul, now I understand why my speakers are so loud on the very small volume level set on my amp.
My 8 Watt 300b tube amp has no problem driving my 88DB speakers. Drivers are accutons, and never dip below 6.6 ohm so pretty easy to run. For tubes no dipping to low ohm is more important then the sensitivity imo.
Excellent discussion there! To add a bit to your analogy to the car with the small engine vs car with mammoth engine. I heard once that it takes around 18HP to propel a midsize auto down a flat road @ 60MPH. So, you have the two cars running neck n neck @ 60MPH. Floor the car with underrated engine and the speed just creeps up a notch or 2. Floor the car with the 600HP V-8 and it nearly breaks the tires free, lurches, and you sink in your seat! Now, compare that to a solid state amp with 10watts RMS vs another with 500watts. Play them into identical speakers using music with a lot of dynamic range. On the average, not much difference, BUT, when that crescendo or drum wack comes, guess which speaker system will scare the heck outta ya! The set with the 500watt amp! That's my take.
Car analogy? Comparing my back in the day '67 Dodge Challenger 318CI V8 (5.2L) was 230 hp, 0-60 mph in 8.1 sec. While my current Audi A5 2.0L has 252HP, 0-60 mph in 6.2 sec?
@@glenncurry3041 You need to take engine size with respect to the number of HP it produces. Losing this relationship loses context.
Great example to explain how the watts would handle music dynamics!
@@dlmp70 Yes the larger engine had less HP, weighed more, less MPG and poorer 0-60. But it really does not matter.
I had Quad Esl 63's which are not sensitive at all. Had an Electrocompagniet 250 AW. Big, powerful, expensive. 250 watts or more per channel. Thought it was perfect sounding. A friend of mine gave me an unserviced McIntosh MC 240 to try. Two times 40 watts, more than 30 or 40 years old. No comparison. I never connected the Electrocompagniet again. Sold it as soon as possible.
A watt is a watt, regardless of the amplifier that delivers it.
How an amplifier acts when pushed to its limit is what makes the difference.
Heh, not for the ones using pmpo, max power, or the even sillier ones like ihf or ipp.
Okay wait--Most important question is whos Moog Modular is that! Stunning!
First thing I noticed.
Three bode shifters too, all connected. I'm really curious what that patch sounds like.
drools...
In my experience, watts and sound quality are inversely related. There is a price to pay for high power. One sacrifices sound quality when increasing power (generally speaking, IMHO). Low power triodes have a transparency and emotional tangibility that solid state designs are lacking. Hence, I’d take a high efficiency speaker driven by a low power amp over a lower efficiency speaker driven by a high power amp any day. Paul’s argument about “coasting” was interesting nevertheless. It might very well be true within the context of systems he sells. I find that my tube based systems with 2 watts per channel never appears to be “overdriven” or “strained” whatsoever. It’s all relative I guess …
@groovesick - that's a very interesting thought. I might have to play with that concept.
I used to be a car mechanic in a previous life and I always tend to think in moto-mechanical analogies. The picture that comes to my mind is a well tuned large engine vehicle vs. a smaller economy car. If you are doing lots of low speed driving for short lengths, never pushing it too hard, the smaller car is going to provide a less wasteful return on energy put in. If, on the other hand, you need to pull a large load at highway speeds, the truck will provide a much more pleasant ride. The economy car might technically be able to pull the load, but you run the risk of stressing out that vehicle much more that the other.
I tend to mix and listen at around 85dB. That's the recommended average max level for making the music seem full, but staying below the threshold of hearing damage. It is an encouraged standard in mixing, so I am just kind of used to it, although I am sure others would find it a bit loud for their tastes. Listening under those conditions I absolutely hear an improvement in transients with a more powerful amp. I can hear the improvement at lower volumes also, but higher spl's are where you really notice the difference.
I have a solid state Marantz unit here from the late seventies maybe. It has output wattage meters on it (cool!), and I am stunned at how sometimes I am listening to room filling music and it is only putting out 0.5-1.5 watts. So your 2 watt amps probably sound just gorgeous if you aren't the type to open it up too far.
Informative. Thanks for sharing.
They way I understood this is the advantage of more watts is that you can play less efficient speakers at greater volumes with less distortion...ish?
It reminds me of recording on multitrack magnetic tape where there was a natural and very pleasant analog compression when you bumped into the red of the VU meter.
When early digital recording was in its infancy. It was learned very quickly that getting into the Red on the VU meter was a No No. Instant distortion and horrible sound.
Digital Recording and the theory behind it has come a long ways since those Analog "Halcyon Days" in the 1970s.
Before the ~early 1980's 16-bit recordings and multitracking mixes made many people cringe. Because it was, at best, 12-bit quality. Personally, I think that helped drive the "Techno" sound in the popular music of the era. With final mixes sounding harsh. Almost like the Nintendo 8-bit sounds we had heard for years on video games.
When the Nyquist theorem's "problems" were gradually worked out. With better equipment, higher bit-rate equipment on individual recording tracks. All done before mixing down to 16-bit 44/48k final mixes. Or higher resolution subjective preferences as technology has progressed.
There has been a convergence to a place where subjective enjoyable human preference, and perhaps nostalgia and "aging ears", have reached an equilibrium. And music has become wonderful again.
That's my take on it. Your mileage may vary.
That answers a lot of questions at my end. I never understood the power race back in the 70s that I heard about frequently.
Oh, that power race is still on. Try walking into a BestBuy and look at their recievers section. They'll even clip it for you at a 1/4 turn to see if you like it. 🤪
As I remember from my young days 6W was a hell of power I was only wishing to have so much. At time my high power mono radio from 1955 used 2xEL84 in ultralinear B and speaker set inside consisted of 8W low toner, 2x1,5mid toners and one 1,5w tweeter (Stradivari) . That "beast" with open windows could be heard 50 meters from home....ok .. in quaet place😊
@@Mikexception That's interesting. My Dad had a Heathkit integrated mono amplifier rated for 14 watts. To my young ears, it could get plenty loud enough without distortion (that I could hear). It was driving a 10" Jensen coax speaker. Yes, I sat in front of the speaker when an interesting song was playing.
@@bikdav Thanks. I am happy that few years ago I got in Poland may be the only known to me Bell - Sound Division mod 2420 for sale. Integrated. Paid some 500 USD Working but full of problems.
After year of hunting deficiences it became very good stereo replacement for that missed Stradivari. Only special problem is that it only uses original 6V6 tubes - any equivalent gets red after 3 days. Nominal tube voltage is 280 V amplifier works at 380V - such was old "margin of safety" in 40 ties - not any more. Bell specialists used margin to get more power.
Although I cant say that amplifier makes any marvels (it only works as i always wanted), for me it is all I need.
I've seen a lot of your videos but in this one I was actually way more drawn to the background.
Also hit it before reading the title and was kinda disappointed, was thinking it was gonna be about your modular hobby I just now discovered you have which I would love to see a video about.
Klipsch is one of the best speakers made for this purpose. Very high sensitivity.
The number one company that lies about their speakers sensitivity. You can take that to the bank.
Yes, Klipsch tends to overrate the sensitivity of their speakers. Two examples:
RP-280F, 98dB advertised, 92.1 actual measurement.
Forte IV, 99 dB advertised, 93.6 actual measurement.
Anyway, the both of them noticeable higher than most competitors.
@@davidsagarra9841 And if you run them with a wimpy little amp and decide you want different speakers you may find yourself either getting a different amp as well or not getting the speakers that you want.
Distorted messes
Many of the Tekton Design speakers are easy to drive high efficiency and tube friendly 8 ohm designs. They sound really quite excellent at their price points.
Just build a power amp using the TDA-7293(4) 50 watt MOS-FET chip (cost about $7.00) . It's got that "tuby-bliss" built in right in...and soft clipping too.
@@kramerdesign9443 OOPs. I meant 7293/94.
fixed in comment. Thx.
@@johnnytoobad7785 I deleted mine so people don't get confused - thanks for that!!
nice explanation
1000th 👍 thank you paul🥳
Sound pressure levels in db? Could you tell us about guitar sound out of a smooth responce curve speaker vrs. A jagged responce curve speaker?. And keep the spl 's alike
If a speaker has an efficiency of 90dBa given 1 Watt of electrical energy at 1 metre and you replace it with one rated at 93dBa, that speaker will be twice as loud. The valve amp also has a completely different relationship with the speaker and is connected with the output section by means of an output transformer which has no direct connection but rather an induced magnetic field between the primary and secondary and you lose half the electrical energy in the transformer right away.
Tell us about those vintage synths sometime, Paul!
Nice Moog!
is the sensitivity specified then that low because of the passive filtering in the speakers? for PA systems 97dB or even slightly over a hundred are not uncommon
Not to mention the amount of iron needed to power those tubes. Incrementally heavier and power hungry. Yet I love them so :)
One thing Paul forgot to mention is the Ohm rating of a Loudspeakers drivers inside the cabinet! Driven with Tube Amplifiers! Tube amps will produce their rated output into an 8 Ohm Load! But not at a 6Ohm or 4Ohm load or even a 2Ohm load! A 4Ohm load is twice as difficult to drive as a 8Ohm load! Meaning a 40 watt rating for a tube amp is at 8 ohms as I stated above, a 4 ohm load will output up to 20 Watts. And a 2 ohm load well output up to 10 Watts!
Loudspeaker drivers (individual speaker drivers) do not all output the same ohm rating!
Some loudspeakers that have 6 ohm drivers will also have a driver that’s 4 ohm or even down to 2Ohms but that is rare!
ALL loudspeakers cabinets have ohm load swing! Some will drop down to 3.5 or 3.2 ohms! and even 1Ohm load! there was a company called Apogee that manufactured loudspeakers with Ribbon Tweeter, Ribbon Midrange and Ribbon Woofer panels that had magnets on the left and right side of the cabinet that were wired to its ribbon panels, similar to Magnaplaner! The Apogee Scintilla dropped down to 1Ohm load! there were only a few amplifiers manufactured back in the late 80s and early 90s that could drive those loudspeakers without clipping and damaging solid state amplifiers and the ribbons!
Magnaplaner states to only use good quality solid-state amplifiers that are capable of doubling their power from 8Ohms to 4Ohms!
Most loudspeaker manufactures will not tell you that in their specs! you have to call somebody in technical support and ask them that direct question and usually they won’t know the answer! Sometimes only the designer of the Loudspeaker will have that information.
There are no standards for Loudspeaker manufactures to provide the information on what the ohm level swing is.
Some audio viewers will have test equipment to measure and provide that information. Most reviewer‘s will not because they don’t have that equipment.
Another informative nugget, Paul can I ask if it’s okay for me to permanently remove the back panel off my DSL20CR 20W Combo for no purpose other than liking the way a tube / valve amp looks, I mean it’s not something I’d want to do with a solid state effort.
I don't see any problem in removing it and it is cool to see the insides!
Those are Hafler TRM8 monitors? If so, you actually use them? I just bought a used Hafler 9505 Transnova power amp on Reverb. I always wanted one ever since I used to read magazines like MIX & others, maybe 30 years ago, dreaming of working in a big recording studio. I never got into pro recording though but I'm finding a lot of pro gear can do very nicely in hifi, & often, for much less than the "hifi" market equivalent.
If I remember correct the K-Horn was 104db 1 electrical Watt input at 4 feet.
BIG BG upgrade!
What if we take a solid state amplifier and use a special limiting circuit on the output stage that softly attenuates the output based on the back emf?
Back in the 1980s NAD amps had a soft clipping feature that did just this.
It is called "soft clipping" and NAD has had it for decades.
This is getting into the silliness of a question like “which is heavier, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?” A watt is a specific value, derived from the relationship defined in Ohm’s law of voltage squared divided by resistance. No more, no less. You do a fine job explaining the differences in behavior when approaching the amplification maximum limit. But the reality is, even including those anomalies and artifacts, a watt is a watt is a watt, regardless of how it is derived. It is also correct to note the signal in tube amplification sometimes contains harmonics not present in a solid state amp. But when measuring the amplifier output voltage on a true rms meter into a dummy load, a watt is still just a watt. Doesn’t matter if it is generated by tube, solid state, or magic pixie dust. A watt is a watt.
Correct.
A watt is a watt, you can't change physics. All things being equal a test tone through tube amp and a solid state amp will produce the same output level. Everything changes when you are using a complex signal like music. The physics don't change but how we hear plays a major role in what "seems" louder. To have enough headroom to avoid clipping in solid state amps you need more power. The tube amp could be clipping but us is less noticeable because of how they distort. My car drives at 60 mph no problem, just like a formula 1 car. The difference is when you hit the gas to get to 100 mph.
I have tube monobloc amps that can be run at 30W or at 110W. Exactly the same amp, just pull a pair of output tubes. Running at 30w sounds great. Running everything the same, but a 110w sounds better. Not louder, just better. Fuller sound. More authority. And better bass. I chose to run it always with the full tube complement.
Thanx for sharing that!
Hey Paul, can you explain the difference in two solid state amp sections of receivers, one rated at 30W from the late 70's and the other rated at 110W from around 2002... And why the 30W (Pioneer SX-680) seems to have a lot more power than the 110W (Yamaha HTR-5980, AVR). I am under the impression that the older receivers were underrated or rated with a different set of parameters that "underrated" them compared to later models.
@vqman- I honestly can't speak to your specific components, but there is quite a bit of fudge room in how manufacturers rate power.
In reality, a watt is a defined measurement, and when measured and labelled correctly, can give some solid insight into an amp's performance. But, through not fully defining the parameters used, the same amp can be described with wildly differing numbers.
The three main considerations determining wattage ratings are: 1) peak voltage or RMS voltage used for calculation, 2) what rating load are they running it into, and 3) peak vs program for output.
Very quick down and dirty:
1) peak voltage converted to RMS voltage means you multiply it by a factor or 0.7071. So that means 100V peak is the same energy as 70.7V RMS. 100 volts (undefined) sure sounds like it should be more powerful than 70 volts (undefined), although in a lab sense, when properly labeled, they are the same amount of voltage created. True power is calculated using RMS, but don't expect everyone to adhere to that.
2) what load used is closely related to number one, as it can also vastly affect the reported numbers. In an extremely rough sense, an amp generating 100 watts with an 8 ohm load can also create 200 watts into a 4 ohm load, and so on. Same actual voltage at the amp's output. But according to Ohm's law (watts= voltage squared divided by resistance) halving the resistance you feed from the amp output will double the power rating, even though the amp output itself does not change.
3) peak vs program means it might be able to put out 100 watts for a brief pulse or transient (peak), but can it sustain that delivery of that 100 watts continuously without fail for a duration of time (program)?
So, between those three things, coupled with advertising using creative license to fudge or poorly define numbers, you can end up with a situation like you described. Hope that helps.
Good point about most folks not using their hi-fi amps anywhere near what they are capable of. Well stated. So a 20 watt per channel tube amp and a 100 watt per channel solid state amp both would sound very loud at, say, 15 Watts per side with moderately sensitive speakers. Electrically, a watt is a watt is a watt !!!! There's no difference in a tube watt than a solid state watt, no magical voodoo going on - it's a basic theoretical parameter. 1 Watt into an 8 Ohm load is (2.83V*2.83V)/8 Ohm=1 Watt.
When wattmeters started coming out on Amps, whether digital or analog, separate or integral, we all thought:
"That's it? I'm only peaking at 2 Watts and my stereo is THIS loud?" Ah, to be young again when most of this crap was a cool mystery.....
I have a Prima Lina EVO400 valve Amp. In Triode mode it gives 38w into 8ohms . In Ultra Linear mode around 75W. If I swap from UL to Triode on the fly the volume difference is negligible. I am driving Martin Logan Electrostatics with a sensitivity of 91. The volume control at 40 percent is about as loud as I ever play it. I doubt it ever clips. The Prima Luna is a gorgeous Amp. Thank you for your excellent presentation.
@Beagle76- interesting thing bout wattage. (Please forgive me if you already know this) Because of the non-linear scale of human hearing (Fletcher-Munson curves), you need to go (roughly) ten times the wattage to be perceived as (roughly) twice as loud. So to be a noticeably louder jump up from a 38 watt amp, you really need to get in the 200-400 watt range. 75 watts (slightly less than twice) isn't going to deliver a huge difference, as you yourself noticed.
I think a lot of this ability to play loud has a lot to do with an amps powers supply. Does it have the current reserves to drive things? Of the valve units I personally own/owned, they all had really beefy overbuilt power supplies. The SS state ones that did really well with my speakers also had a lot of attention made to theirs. The cheaper amps that I could hear struggling had a compromised solution to keep the cost down. What I have observed is a tube amp does not do all that more than SS component that pays a lot of attention to how it delivers current to the transducer. However, I did notice when I upgraded for reason of weight and heat hazard. The 70 watt per channel tube integrated I used to own pretty much dominates the 100 watt Hybrid SS unit that replaced it. The old tube integrated, played louder, cleaner, and had more punch than SS unit with the higher wattage. Now 30 more watts in amplification is not much to write home about. Regardless, the so called lesser powered valve amp was noticeably more in control of my speakers. Here is the thing the old tube amp was nearly 70 pounds a lot of its heft due to the power supply and oil can sized capacitors. The little SS hybrid unit is about 40.
❤Paul thanks that explains a lot.
Question, I have a Joe Meek twin Q pre I use w a tube mic called Revelation II. I'm getting the best sound ever. Kinda creamy buttery sounding. We won a Hawaiian Grammy called the Na Hoku for the best Alternative album of the year. I have a button pushed on the Joe Meek called (Iron) which puts an audio transformer in the circuit. How does a transformer modify audio?
They have an iron core and coils of wire which have inductance. But why is the sound better or different with a transformer?
Thanks Paul
Most of the times, when listening to Music at home, we are using less than 2W of power even with low sensitivity speakers.
Sad You actually believe this as it is factually inaccurate
@@davidcross890 Sad? … Inaccurate? … Well if you have a better answer to David, why don’t you just tell us? I am not grumpy, I just get frustrated with some who give comments but no reference to the facts. Just share some little knowledge with us!
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed Hi Jose, many people do not understand the entirety of the dynamic envelope of musical energy versus time. Truly accurate and uncolored and undistorted musical reproduction requires as absolute few distortions as possible. Their are so many distortion types and mechanisms. Many are possible to address. Solid State in it's greatest possible Designs (which sadly most manufacturers have yet to design or deliver) has many severe advantages over tube designs at any price. Tubes inherently have specific distortions that cannot be corrected in real time without extreme level advanced solid State band aid electronics knowledge and implementation.
Some say they actually enjoy tube distortions. Extra Coloration, Phase distortions, lEnhanced Euphonics etc.
Kind Regards Jose
@@davidcross890 I am politely replying to you that what you have said is correct, but also unrealistic because then you will have to phase out most of the instrumentation that was used to record nearly everything in history. I have friends who have “high end” Solid State systems to their opinion, and yet cannot realise that their are clipping or influencing bass distortion when listening to music. You will have to delete Aural Exciters, Reverb Generators filters, tubed microphones etc from the chain to achieve your perceived ultra high end sound - but in this audiophile journey if you must call it - this is not what I want or others want. Even “live” audio is not perfect because everyone - everyone is different, hears different or focuses on a particular band of audio frequencies to their own judgment and enjoyment. I particularly want my ears “massaged” in the frequency band and that effect will only happen if an amp or a preamp uses a particular PIO capacitor with a particular tube in a particular strapping technique! Most of us in the real world can learn to enjoy the best possible sound available either with tubes or transistors, but some will not be happy with 0.0001% distortion until they are able to find their sweet spot of synergy - and that could be with a tube. In the real world, most people will only be able to achieve modest respectable clarity in their sound system. I am not grumpy. Thanks for the reply.
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed I Am Truly Grateful for Your Comments. Many points that You articulate and assert are some of the very reasons new technology had to be invented to actually revisit all historical recordings and apply new impeccable innovative approaches and Technologies to recording or remastering to much much more closely retrieve what was once in the past performed. That benefits us all.
I am not alone in wanting or desiring to relive or experience through impeccable reproduction what was once performed in all it's potential glory with the advantage of today's bleeding edge advantages. Any digital audio file, CD, vinyl lp, master tape, dat, cassette, stream can benefit from this and any new offering could as well. This way all price level systems and their owners benefit.
Again, I appreciate your comments
Thank You,
David
Interesting! I have a pair of Cerwin Vega 380SE that claim a sensitivity of 102db at 1w/1m.
...to answer the proposed question: no. A watt is a watt is a watt, a unit of power; V*I=W. 1volt*1amp=1watt, no matter if a tube-based or semiconductor-based circuit is used. Most of the perceived differences between the two circuit methods occur when the circuits are operated beyond their respective linear regions. Not saying people don't hear differences, but what they are hearing ain't "watts".
3:24 - Wouldn't impedance-dips affect frequency response using a tube amp? Since a tube output is basically a current-source, a rise in impedance would affect a rise in voltage, something that the voltage-output of a solid state amp simply doesn't do!
Class A watts go further too... I think mostly is that tube n class A amps ? You can push them way harder with less distortion... and. The power is so clean you can use higher sensitivity speakers
Great explanation. Question. If a speaker with a sensitivity of 88 dB at 1 watt in 8 ohms is considered medium, what would the sensitivity be for a low sensitivity loudspeaker? Obviously less, but can you specify this?
"medium" is not a science measurement. Keep it simple, use DBs, watts, distance.
Sure. I would say low sensitivity loudspeakers would be 85dB.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thanks, Paul! 85 dB/1W/1M speakers can deliver 98 dB SPL at 1 meter with only 20 watts. That’s still enough imho. I have 25 years of experience measuring different audio systems with professional SPL hardware meters. Most people don’t know how loud for example 100 dB (A) is at 3 meters when you have a very capable audio setup at home. It’s loud. Incredibly loud. Even if we listen to a speaker set with the medium 88 dB sensitivity, listening at only 1 watt per channel driven by the amp is actually loud enough for most people. I own a pair of ADAM Audio studio monitors that I use in my home studio and they can deliver more than 110 dB SPL without distortion at 1 meter. Sometimes I crank the volume up if a musician or artist comes over and they cover their ears with their hands while they are at 4 to 5 meters from the monitors. But rest assured, I mix and master at 85 dB SPL. My ears are the most important tools. Have a great Sunday!
@@NeverTalkToCops1 I know. I only used the word medium for the only purpose of asking a question. And also Paul himself uses this word in this video. And please, be kind. Have a nice day.
I don't know if guitar amps are somehow rated differently than hi-fi amps, but in my experience if you put a 20 W solid state amp next to a 20 W tube amp and dime them both, the solid state amp isn't nearly as loud. To your point, they sound radically different at full volume, but it seems like the solid state amp lacks ooomph (technical term).
I have the same experience, and no real answer. But to try, perhaps the speaker of the tube amp is more sensitive by design, and/or the solid state wattage is mostly overrated, so the true (good) wattage is lower then claimed.
It's all about the different harmonics at clipping point and beyond. A lightly "crunched" tube amp doesn't sound distorted - a solid state amp usually does (although there are exceptions).
Watch this video by Jim Lill. He does a whole series on where guitar tone originates and he just did a video on tube amps ua-cam.com/video/wcBEOcPtlYk/v-deo.html
Is that your Moog system?
Thank you Paul now I know that I have to upgrade my MINI Minor to a Ferrari😁
When valves (tubes), distort, they produce mostly even harmonics which sound nice.
When solid state devices, like transistors, distort, they produce mostly odd harmonics which sound bad.
Speakers are designed for being driven by voltage and low output impedance. A tube power amp with high output impedance generally performs poorly on those parameters thus nowadays isn’t a good choice at all. Of course soft tube clipping sounds better than hard transistor clipping but it’s much better to have no clipping with more power.
So how come speaker manufactures don't have all high sensitivity? Serious question
Watts depends very much on how the manufacturer actually messures watts and even more on the power reserves in the power supply etc.
Many messure watts with just 1ch driven at about 6ohm with 1kHz test tone instead of all ch. driven at 20Hz - 20kHz into various ohms like 8, 4 or even 1ohm.
Headroom is the key , have you ever owned a NAD Reciever , intergrated or power amp with the power envelope design circuit? Even the 20 watt per channel little bugger had such a enormous capability. Just for side kicks , I'll tell you what I do to mess with people's heads , I will take a cool old Technics, Nikko, Kenwood amp or receiver that looks mint but might have internal problems and then take one of my ugly Betty NAD pieces I buy on eBay that have been mistreated as far as the cosmetics and retrofit the preamp and power amp section of the old classic 60s or 70s before mentioned and then take the big classic mondo piece into a audio shop to audition some speakers I am interested in , the first thing a sales person will say when I unbox the beast is wow that 8s a super clean old school what ever it is I have brought in for the demoing then I tell them what speakers I want to hear with my amp or Receiver , they look at me and say if ibis my first time dealing with a shop , oh sorry you are mistaking the capabilities of you vintage amplifier sir , but we do have a pair of speakers that will work with your classic piece , I then tell them I am buying what I want ., Not what you think my amp can handle .
Long story short I tell them if my under rated piece hurts the speakers because of clipping and lack of impedance capabilities I will pay for them , then when the audition starts there faces turn funny wondering how does this old Jap Receiver push these , they get confused and sometimes call in another sales dude or there technician and says look at this thing , it is pushing loads as low as 2 ohms , blablabla , after the confusion I will laugh and then reveal the insides of my Frankenstein piece. I have made plenty of heads turn in amassment. And have sold a number of pieces to guys that miss and love the old school looks and then needs a Frankenstein for there set up .
Bye the way, I am working on a early 90s ONKYO receiver at the moment , it is getting NAD treatment , and I love being a Dr. Fronkenstien, in the audio world . Oh and the tuner will be disregarded and VU meters installed in the space the tuner plate is .
@@jasontimothywells9895 Yeah, NAD and also harman/kardon (before they stopped making anything good) and some others have pretty good headroom.
Hahaha😅 Funny story! Then you know exactly what I mean with my comment😝 I remember the first time when I really learned this. Changed from a 5x100 watts Technics to a 5x45 (2x50 in stereo) watts on a H/K reciver... The H/K beat the living shit out of the little Technics😅 The H/K was quite a bit physically larger and alot heavier and with twice as large power supply than the little Technics😅 If I would guess I think the Technics coule maybe deliver max 20 watts in real life. Blew a few tweeters with it back then too because it was a weak little shit. Never did that any more with the H/K.
What you say is true, amps aren't tested broad spectrum or dynamically for max power. The industry standard is a 1khz test signal IN with the output connected to a matched dummy load, so for example if the amp has a 4ohm speaker out, then a 4ohm appropriately rated resistor is connected across the output jacks, along with an oscilloscope and volt meter. The input signal is then increased until the amp clips. A simple calculation (vac squared/ohms) of the output voltage gives us the max watts RMS rating of the amp. Though not perfect the max output test gives a good reference to compare other amps with. Every quality manufacturer will reference to this simple power test.
@@jasontimothywells9895 I have had many NADs and the PE circuit rocks.
That makes a sense. Surely on condition that we realy drive tube amplifier up to that 20W nominal or at least 10 W. I have 15W per channel and in fact I have no clue about used power. Measuring music with voltmeter it is 0,5- 2VAC at 8 oHm 🤕Could it be max 0,5 Watt and so annoying noise? Probably good idea of measuring amplifier power would be to measure supply fuse DC current at average pop music but how to judge THD in pop music instead of any specified kHz ?
Talking about power vice satisfaction in loudness we often forget that to treat power equally to loudness we should integer the whole spectrum of sound for all peaks in instance , Eventualy fourier analysis could help but who uses it for power? . Even then due to FM curves there will be deeply non equal for loudness components. Our data at 1 kHz amplitude. is simplification Loudness is also only a approximated tool because loudness is often perceived depending on person and mixed with size of imaged source. Big source with complete of harmonics makes more psychical impression than even louder but deprived of harmonics thus perceived smaller So in worse systems people try to make it big with turning volume up.
If you listen to music you will usually not exceed 1 W of output power to drive your speakers. I have a self made amplifier at home with an output power of 2 x 12 W. If I use it normally I have measured an average RMS power of less than 100 mW with some peek values of 1 or a few W. So the output power of my amplifier is perfect for me.
BTW: our ears are extremely sensitive. The efficiency of a normal speaker is usually somewhere in the range between 2 to 5 per cent. Most of the power which drive the speakers is wasted as heat in the voice coil and damping materials. What I listen to is therefore just a few milliwatts of acoustic power.
Can listening to Snoop Dog music make me fail a drug test? I'm asking for a friend, not me.
Tubes clip more,"Softly", than solid state devices. One can observe the waveform at the clipping for both types of devices. The Minibeast OTL I own has a Frequency response out to 100KHz. The newer version of same, can pass square waves at 10 KHz and the frequency response extends out to 200KHz.. So its not the ability of solid state devices to amplify high frequencies, that is the issue.
Bought your book 😅😁
I heard that tubes clip at high passages
🤔different than solid state
I have 100 db/W/m speakers (Altec Model 18) with a Luxman LX-38 Ultimate tube amp (30W/ch) and listen at moderate level. I wonder if I’ve ever reached 0.5W.
i have 100db altec carmels and used them with 1wpc LTA MZ3 and never go over 12'oclock on the vol knob.
"Tube watts" are a product of psychoacoustics. The much lower damping factor, and the abundance of 2nd and other even-order harmonics when driven to near clipping and beyond, makes them sound LOUDER than comparable solid-state amps, which tend to clip with ODD-order harmonics. Even-order harmonics REINFORCE. Odd-order harmonics MASK.
Average listening volume uses about 3-5 watts.
for me even less as my room is very small, about 100 Sq ft
Just use class A with high efficiency speakers and they blast and thumb as hard as a powerfull SS or class D. It’s all about matching. Untill now no SS till let’s say 30k will sound as natural and realistic as tubes.
Yup
I used to shop at Clip City Stereos. It was full of Sony, Pioneer and JVC 100 watt recievers.
Oh Clip City. Didn't they merge with Sears. Used to be able to smoke there too🚬
@@LuxAudio389 No. You're thinking if Monkey Wards.
I do remember the Sears stereo department though. The wall o' speakers was right next to the Kenmore vacuum department. You had to crank uo the recievers to drown out the noise from the uprights.
Alot of watts get lost to heat before converting to sound energy. Power is misleading as a main decision to buy an amp. You could both have 100 watt amps but one has crap parts and design to it with high noise and distortion and the other as clean as a whistle. This mainly comes down to parts used with great design. The lessor known companies starting out and wanting to get noticed tend to do ultra quality and lower than market pricing to get their brand out there and then raise the pricing as they have to for staying in business. Loudness alone doesn't usually hurt your hearing it's the distortion. You can play crystal clear music at 85db and enough to make you tap out. You could listen to high distortion at 75db and damage the ears more. I have the VAC pair of mono tube amps the 452 music blocks. The cheaper tube amps tend to have heavy noise, cheap quality tubes, excessive constant heat throw off, etc. One of the downside to the tube amps is at least with mine it will play right away but to warm up good needs to be on an hour or more to get into the sweet spot. Solid state good to go right away in most cases. So learn about what materials are used in a manufacturers product, how it is designed, and how it sounds. Do not just go off of reviews in magazines, etc. Love the car analogy. One is straining and the other is coasting.
If I recall tube amps generate even order harmonics when clipped which are ears dont mind so much compared to the odd order harmonics of a clipping solid state amp.
That is the bs written in print. Reality is DISTORTIONS ARE JUST THAT,DISTORTIONS. I prefer clearly as absolute close to zero DISTORTION of All types as possible. That automatically eliminates ALL tube Amps at any price
@@davidcross890 Everything in balance David. Life is full of natural distortions, and we as people find comfort in that. Eliminating distortion completely from a musical passage is considered unnatural by our brains. This is why tube amplifiers are preferred by many. Remember life is a balance, in order for you to know how high up on a platform you are, you need to know the opposite end, "where the ground is." Have a good day.
@@MrCarlsonsLab Natural Life without human assistance or intervention....Finds Balance.
It appears your assumptions are quite amazing and deeply flawed PROVABLE by experience gathered in advanced research regarding the ACTUAL neural process of how hearing is interpreted and processed by the brain and also actual signals integrity intelligence.
You may want to consider what you don't know by fact and what you have not personally mastered.
Respectfully, you may end up challenged by an individual who has actually mastered new innovations that you may be genuinely clueless about. Those specific issues of gnosis may not be within your current wheelhouses.
Actual Original occurring events are by nature DISTORTION FREE as specifically they are the actual original events that they solely are before any intervention or interference.
Further, I am quite aware as to the station or platform I reside at..you may be quite shocked. I have my wheelhouses of utter pinnacle expertise that still seem to have no peer. Outside those particular WHEELHOUSES I have So Very Much to learn.
I have not arrived at my station or platform by doing the same broken or flawed things most others do. My Inventions and innovations and their products offshoots affect and effect most every person on this planet including I am sure you.
So actually doing their own actual research and gaining an uncommon knowing may assist most from taking many a flawed path, unless the intent is to learn how many ways to experience failure. We all have a CHOICE to become more.
I choose the path of continued excellence and to become more and honor my creation. I am open to learning more.
With that, if You believe You can openly and publicly via UA-cam demonstrate that You have a Superior Electronics End Measurable Result that Supercedes My Wheelhouse initiatives and technologies that I have accomplished I openly welcome You to attempt to Publicly Prove my research flawed.
If You somehow could prove me wrong regarding my wheelhouses I would learn more.
Best Regards
David
@@davidcross890 Hi David. Interesting write. I'm not out to prove anything to anyone, or get into the useless "look at me" pride filled responses, I'm a hard facts and "show me the data" type of fellow. If you would like to learn more, you can just click my channel name. I use a lot of test equipment during designs, you may find this aspect interesting, (or not?) Have a good evening.
@@MrCarlsonsLab Respectfully, STEP UP TO THE PLATE.
YOUR TEST EQUIPMENT WILL SHOW YOU THAT RESPECTFULLY, YOU REALISTICALLY HAVE MUCH TO LEARN.
I HAVE TEST EQUIPMENT TOO...MUCH ADVANCED TEST EQUIPMENT. SOME OF WHICH I CREATED TO ADVANCE THE EVER EVOLVING BLEEDING EDGE STATE OF THE ART.
I CURRENTLY DO NOT HAVE A UA-cam CHANNEL, YOU DO AND I AM ALL ABOUT THE FACTS.
I OFFER YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO PUBLICLY PROVE MY ASSUMPTIONS INCORRECT.
WELL?
Maybe the tube amp is Class A versus his solid state amp is Class AB. Could not the difference in Class watts be the reason he thinks the tube watts drive his speakers similar to the higher wattage solid state amp?
that modular moog...please play something on it..
My Yamaha B-2 is as creamy and as warm as could be. I'm not interested in tube amps because I don't want to spend more money. The danger of it may or not be in the best interest to my wallet. Haha! I've never heard a tube amp to be honest. I think that I will just focus on upgrading my speakers. I live in Japan. Don't be jealous of my options. I say that in a fun way, of course. I'm currently looking for a pair of Yamaha NS-2000. I'm interested in the NS-1000, but subwoofers are hard to get here. Although the Yamaha Yst-Sw1000 has caught my attention. They're in abundance in Japan.
I could be wrong but I always have the notion that it had to do with current versus voltage. Like a solid state amp is very good at voltage but not so good at current whereas a tube amp is great at current but not so good at voltage.now current is what drives the speakers and so you would in theory need less tube watts to produce a certain, let's say loudness or perceived power then you would with solid state.
Granted I could be wrong about the whole thing so correct me if I am, seems like I read that somewhere on a forum somewhere perhaps but anyway I just thought I would share that.
You're not wrong at all. That's exactly what it is.
@Amb - not quite. You are describing two different characteristics. One is efficiency, or the amps ability to deliver an output signal vs energy used by the amplifier (better at current vs voltage, akin to mpg efficiency of a car). The other is the measurement of the actual signal put out (actual output wattage, akin to the speed the car is travelling). Once that output signal leaves the amp it is measured for AC RMS voltage (not current). That voltage is then squared and then divided by the resistance of whatever load the amp is driving. The resulting number is power, or watts.
Again using the car analogy, you can say it might take an old pickup truck more time and fuel to reach 60mph than a sports car (efficiency), but in the end, they both are travelling 60mph (wattage). Doesn't matter if you go on a bike, in a car, or just can run inhumanly fast. Doesn't matter how you get there, 60mph is 60mph for every moving thing. Same with watts.
Back to amps, you may have one amp that takes more current to generate that same output voltage than the other, using up more energy in the process But the RMS meter doesn't care about that. If you have one amp generating 25VAC RMS efficiently into an 8 ohm load, and another that does it inefficiently using twice the energy but still outputting 25VAC RMS, they are still both 78-ish watts output.
Watts is not dependent on tube, solid state, efficiency, or magic fairy dust. It is a defined relationship spelled out in Ohm's law as voltage squared divided by resistance. How you derive that voltage does matter one iota. A watt is a watt is a watt. It is defined and immutable, regardless of the device providing it.
Hope that helps.
I use all my 1000 watts to lesson and feel the music
@Paul if people care so much about watts, why aren't amplifiers called wattifiers? :)
If a loudspeaker was 100% efficient, which it can never be, you would only need approximately 1/3W to reproduce the sound of an orchestra.
Efficiency rating (in percent) is related, but not the same as sensitivity rating (dB SPL/W). Usual efficiency values for HiFi speakers and studio monitors are between 0.2 % and 2 % (at best). So you may put 10 Watt amp power in and get about 1 Watt sound power out.
@@Fastvoice Agreed, I purposely said efficiency and not sensitivity. I’m not sure how you would measure the efficiency of a loudspeaker as it’s a hypothetical notion.
Iam no techie. The only thing I know: on my former class d 180 Watts amplifier (nad m32) the volume was on 3 o'clock. On my new tube amp (ear 861, 32 watts) the volume is not even on 10 o'clock. Very strange for me. Speakers are devore o/93
@@clickbeetle2720 yeah, it is rly strange. But thats what it is
Like 💙
And so in conclusion yes tube watts uber alles.
Now I know why a 50w Plexi will make my ears bleed like a 100w.
I'd have any amount of "tube watts" to listen to ... versus solid state any day, same as I would prefer listening to vinyl than digital
Why? If you have adequate Watts to not clip the signal, your tube amp will still struggle with inferior damping factor.
@@ThinkingBetter I see it other in my case . I listen to solid and tube depending on my day and for sure tube is more tight in low range and solid makes it more "buffy". When I need more low vibrations I choose solid. Tube makes bigger scene . But it is just in my case. Never forget that solid has coupling capacitor which grows impedance and shifts phase at low range Tube transformer is even opposite lowering impedance and in phase with speaker inductance
@@Mikexception yep, and you can hear the coherence for sure, lovely tubes ;)
My doughter husband plays in loud rock band. Two months ago he received from specialist his order - new tube scene amplifier with one EL84 for his blues harmony. ONE.
@@geddylee501 You love them? Interesting, may be I try too 🤪 Sometime few days in raw I listen only to solid. Which is 15Watts Arena radio from Denmark having germanium power end. I like to have two options for detecting any flowing changes
Many Comments here clearly show THAT THEIR Individual POSTER has VIRTUALLY ZERO REAL KNOWLEDGE of virtually near absolute linearity in amplification or power assignment design. It is no shock that so many of these systems need SERIOUS HELP when their owners are so used to or make excuses for their ugly distortions with every note that they attempt to represent or reproduce
If you like your tubes you will have to give up on getting any good bass and don’t forget about the maintenance with tubes if you listen to a lot of music often they deteriorate over time and most of the time you don’t notice the loss when they start to go no thx solid state for me always
Maybe you get a better feeling by pushing that little race car engine a bit more than just cruising along in a big boring bus with a huge engine? Just a thought.
1 watt is 1 watt, regardless of what generates it.
Can you tell PS Audio sells SS amps, lol. Once again Paul demonstrates his bias.
And very powerful ones to boot.
The most musical amps in the world recognized by most audio files ,are low watt tube amps , because only in the first watt counts at regular listening levels
Tube Amps at ANY PRICE at the 1st watts level and beyond do not stand a chance at maintaining absolute signal integrity via ultra high end reproduction standards.
@@davidcross890 Why? Because of harmonics? And what about the harmonics that people want? If they care at all? And what is ultra high end? Like 0.0001% if people out there? What happened to the real world sweet old guy who just wants to listen to his 3 watt 6V6 power amp at low volume levels with a bit of smooth whiskey and some crummy old records from the 50’s that sound great to him? Just asking.
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed That sounds like an enjoyable experience for some undoubtedly. Respectfully, I am into pushing towards enjoyable reproduction via potential perfection of signal chain integrity through advanced sciences.
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed ultra high end for me is ENJOYABLE Compression and Rarefaction of RARIFIED AIR AND PROVABLY THE BEST OF THE BEST. KUDOS to All Those that Provide those experiences.
Of Course, To each their own
@@davidcross890 Listen to an OTL, and not at, "ANY PRICE", but built from a kit. Spending huge amounts of cash for parts, not to mention mundane Topology, that cost 1/1000th the retail price, is silly. But it does give one, bragging rights. If you require, "Ultra high end reproduction", check out Transcendent Sound's 300B OTL and Audio Note Kit's Level V DAC. You'll need a Hakko soldering station and a multimeter. Although, if you enjoy 2 inch thick CNC, billet Aluminum, chassis, forget it.
I can think of a whole bunch of reasons to buy a brutish solid state amp yet only one to get a low powered tube amp. SS for me every time.
let me help you
1. tube watts can be class a so no switching just pure power
2. tube amps soft clip vs solid state hard clipping
3. they don't sound like shit
4. they look better and many are point to point wiring vs cheap pcb boards
5. tubes are better at rectification
6. tubes drive voltage while solid state has limited voltage and more current. (speakers are voltage driven not actually current driven as most think)
7. tubes prefer smoother impedance curves but are actually better equipped in driving steep curves because they run higher voltages
8. they can swing more voltage
@@V1ralB1ack lolz.
Tube watts vs solid state watts…. All you have to do is plug a guitar into a 30 watt VOX AC30, and then just try to get anywheres near the same volume with a 30 watt solid state amp…. Not even close.
no headroom, no dynamics
Solid state can have headroom and dynamics too, but it usually costs a bit more.
@@AT-wl9yq my point is Solid State is the way to go if you want headroom and dynamics
I do however acknowledge people are entitled to experience what they prefer no matter how twisted or disturbing or distorted it is in Reality
Wow! Thanks David - I’m glad I’m allowed to listen to my humble power amps with my lowly tubes single ended pre with freedom. The best comment I’ve come across on this un assuming thread.
@@JoseMorales-kr2ed You of course are entitled to your thoughts or choice of gear. Perfection or the attempt to achieve it are RARIFIED and obviously not for some.
Never heard of a TOOOB amplifier......
That's exactly how "tube" is mostly pronounced in the U. S.. -"Tjooob" would be wrong there.-
@@Fastvoice By some people. I'm a midwesterner raised by a college English teacher, and I have always said [tjuːb] for tube and [tjuːn] for tune. There is a *subtle* diphthong in educated pronunciation.
@@christopheroliver148 Let's say both variations are not globally wrong - at least that's what our foreign words pronunciation database here for german public radio & TV says (I'm working as a voice talent). 🙂