Never seen your videos before but I'm thankful I came across this one - I love how you explain your thought process and approach to assessing this argument. A great illustration of critical thinking. Thank you!
So interesting. I personally find polyvagal theory baffling even on its own terms. There's so much talk of people being 'stuck' in defensive states, and the need to move through sympathetic, up the ladder into ventral, then in the same breath we're told that we first need to move into ventral in order to 'unstick' a defensive state! Total paradox as far as I can see. I can't make head nor tail of it.
This is such and awesome exposition of the subject!!! Thank you so much for your efforts, you have even a great setup for recording! I wish this had reached more people , I think maybe the title isn't helping maybe something like Why the PVT is a myth and why that may not be that bad or something like that. My point is that it may be titled like an article and in youtube there is more to the creating curiosity (: not clickbait or anything but something that sparks that curiosity, I think in your title people that "asupport" the theory may dismiss it and even be offende, and the people that dismiss the theory may be like ikr? next video haha and you actually have so much more to offer to both camps. This is truly great (: I wil check out all youother videos.
Wow! I'm really impressed and I will definitely check out the rest of your content. Hope you don't mind, but I'll take a shot at a question. I would love to hear your thoughts on NLP, neurologistic language programming. It's not scientifically proven in every aspect, but with a practical approach and a critical mind to explore it, everybody can put it to good use in a way that suits them. You can't simply replace your senses and reactions to replicate a successful athlete for instace, if you're wanting to be good at high jumping, but keep stopping before the bar. However you can work on different aspects of your behaviour and ultimately get closer, kind of using a scientific method of researching yourself and running the change process as a project. It's an entire world and my favorite speaker and coach is a Swedish one, named Kjell Enhager, who also has English videos.
3 examples of how body language is not universal: 1. In India, there are not one, but several nuanced variations of what Westerners know as “nodding”. 2. Bulgarians shake their heads for “Yes”, and nod for “No” 3. Most Asians do not gesture “Come here” the way Westerners do. They would consider that degrading - since it is reserved for animals. They wave their hand in a flapping motion towards the ground. Also, most all cultural responses are quite different in collectivist (Asian) societies as opposed to individualistic cultures (American, British, Australian, Canadian, etc.).
That has zero to do with PVT. Cultural variation with respect to the specific semantic facial and somatic expressed form does not contravene the clearly visible and underlying autonomic state. Galvanic skin response, the pupils of the eyes (ie, parasympathetic relaxed state and constricted or sympathetic excited state, enlarged); heart rate variability and vocal inflection/intonation - irrespective of phenotypical or particular external cultural form does not lie! They are in fact identical. Take an Indian or Bulgarian or a Papua New Guinean when suddenly happening upon a tiger facing them will have identical sympathies adrenal fight/flight or in other cases (depending upon the person) dorsal vasovagal syncope (ie, parasympathetic metabolic shutdown or fainting/passing out).
As far as the effects of RSA (respiratory sinus arrhythmia) being questionable is simply untrue. Look at apnea, tachycardia and neurogenic bradycardia in SIDS amongst preemies born prior to 28 weeks. The protective myelinated (ventral) vagus is simply not there. There is a direct causal relationship. Much of Steve’s work is entirely borne out by human embryology.
Funny you ask! Not sure why there isn't a UA-cam version of this one; I'll have to try to track it down: yourparentingmojo.com/captivate-podcast/attachmentresearch/
@@YourParentingMojo I had a chance to review that literature . Thank you . Nonetheless, attachment theory still has therapeutic value in my opinion even if it’s not totally accurate .
Polyvagal theory bases its theory on the role of the vagus nerve, however scientists with extensive experience and knowledge about the vagus nerve have debunked Porges data and theory. Still its a very helpful model for psychotherapy.
No one has debunked it. Paul Grossman is a disgruntled physiologist who became an antagonist because working along similar lines Porges developed the theory first. Grossman and Taylor’s straw man argument do not address the central tenets of the theory of the phylogenetic and hierarchical transition from a-social reptiles to social mammals, which finds its core evidentiary facts in human embryology. What they present are at best interesting facts but not central to the theory and egregiously and shamefully are, in fact, strawman arguments! A couple of other outliers as well, which simply do NOT understand the basis of the theory rooted in how the mammalian autonomic nervous system develops. Porges is cited in approximately 15,000 peer reviewed articles.
I love how this guy is trying to discredit Paul Grossman who is well respected in his field. No self respecting physiologist supports Porges, most just don't bother spending any energy debunking him because the "theory" and the utter nonsense he spouts about physiology is such fundamental garbage they don't imagine anyone would fall for it. Unfortunately, therapists are a credulous lot (including me once upon a time) so the nonsense has spread far and wide. Thank goodness Grossman decided to rescue anyone smart enough to see that the emperor has no clothes.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Contrary! He rescued you into further delusion and you need a pair of new clothes! It is my darling, Paul Grossman who had not somewhat but completely and entirely discredited . His arguments are strawman arguments that have no merit; meaning; nada, to do with the neuroanatomical and neurophysiological foundations of Polyvagal Theory which is based upon existing science. It is “willful misunderstanding” of Polyvagal Theory. He is essentially disgruntled because Steve beat him to it.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampaPaul Grossman is a disgruntled physiologist as he too was exploring phylogeny and RSA (respiratory sinus arrhythmia, measurement cardiac vagal tone) but Porges presented the Polyvagal Theory first. He is virtually the lone dissenter or one of very few but the most spoken and has been partly but completely and unequivocally discredited .
@@Neilgs LOL. Ok, sir. Whatever. As I said in an other comment, Predictive processing reduces the entire bag of PV garbage ideas to folk psychological nonsense. But hey, enjoy your steak while that ship sinks,
You raise some interesting points and I appreciate the level of detail. I wanted to address this comment: "surely if PVT were completely invalid, there would be an absolute dog pile of research from people anxious to disprove it." In reality, what I have heard from researchers is most could care less about PVT because to them it is so obviously wrong. They simply don't have the time for it.
So good! Thanks. I'm always looking for good explanations of why this is a myth to send to my friends and colleagues. I'm a bit less measured than you, lol, so this is a good resource. The betrayal I felt was gigantic when I realized (after understanding Lisa Feldman Barrett's work) that PV was junk. I couldn't believe that all my teachers had been teaching me scientific myths about brain function. And though they are no longer my teachers, it irks me that they still are teaching this junk as if it's science. It's kind of infuriating, and I'm on a mission to make sure as many people as possible know it's junk science. Therapists deserve better. They deserve to know that it's a story, perhaps a useful one, but nothing more. Anyway, thanks again.
You really don't know what you are talking about, it is truly an embarrassment! If you understood neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neuroendocrinology as well as phylogeny and human embryology which apparently you do not, perhaps you would arrive at a different conclusion. Polyvagal Theory is cited in over 15,000 peer reviewed articles. To infer that there is no new understanding of the vagus is just simple and pure ignorance. There are clear neuroanatomical and neurophysiological distinctions between the primitive dorsal motor nucleus (solitary tract), a sympathetic-adrenal nervous system and the nucleus ambiguus that emerged with mammals approx. 220 million years ago with five clustered cranial nerves (V, VII, IX, X and XI) and the two myelinated viceromotor pathways connected to the bronchi and sinoatrial node, hence constituting what is referred to as, "the ventral vagal complex." Furthermore, one does not need to find the common ancestor both to reptiles and mammals, In other words, just turn to phylogeny to clearly understand the transitional maturation of the autonomic nervous but rather to human embryology and prematurity, post utero prior to 28 weeks where the babies are vulnerable to apneas and neurogenic bradycardia. As far as Neuroception, it is largely situated in the FG (FFA of the FG, fusiform face area), the superior temporal sulcus and the temporal parietal junction. Essentially, interpreting cues of safety from cues of danger, biological motion in contrast to mechanical motion. Interoception significantly involves the insular. This is not some careless speculation or "Just so story" but an integral part of Affective Neuroscience.
@Neilgs - 😂LOL. We'll have to agree to disagree. I stand by my statement. PV ideas are garbage pseudoscience. No self respecting physiologist supports this nonsense. Predictive brain function renders it folk psychological gobbledygook. But hey, enjoy your steak while the ship sinks. 🍻
😂LOL, we'll have to agree to disagree. No self respecting physiologist supports this garbage. Predictive processing reduces PV ideas to folk psychological garbage too. But hey, enjoy your steak as the ship sinks. 🍻
Hi. I am an RN, the owner of the Marina's Emotional Support as well as CTMH-A and SSP provider, and ISPW facilitator. It seems to me that, taking from your own words, you do not really understand PVT. I doubt also that you have any background in analyzing research. With all due respect, I must say that It would be helpful to get educated first because otherwise, you are repeating non-sense said by other people and spreading misinformation. Paul Grossman has not come up with his own theory, he just started attacking someone else's because he himself never looked at his traumas that prevent him from seeing clearly. Whatever arguments he presented do not really apply. Lizards do not nurse their young - period the end. He never reached out to Dr. Porges to discuss his concerns either but rather went ahead with his agenda to discredit his work, which btw, I find revolutionary. PVT already helped so many people realize their humanness and be on the road to recovery that no Paul Grossman and others who are on the same page with him, can stop it.
Core affective emotions are universally hardwired, parabrachial nucleus, part of the lateral reticular formation, the periacqueductal gray, hypothalamus, etc. Seeking System/Curiosity, Panic, Sadness, Rage, Lust,, Nurturance/love, Play/Laughter. The outward various cultural expressions may subtly vary but they are identical with respect to accompanied autonomic state. If you prefer looking at animals they are the same. Lisa Barrett who you cite, the darling of cognitive neuroscience is actually fringe and doesn’t hold a candle to Mark Solmes and the father of Affective Neuroscience who actually correlated, mapped these systems empirically, Jaak Panksepp.
In regards to the coherence model you mentioned. You say didn't really show proof. I don't necessarily have any proof....but heartmath might have some good information for you.
You seem to love drama. Why there is so much drama around everything these days. What comes to polyvagal theory. It has helped me a lot to control my stresslevels. I understand that medical industry hates pvt, cause people can get help without drugs through breathing and balancing autonomic nervesystem. Could it be that research doesnt get any funding because results might be harmful for medical industry 🤔
For entertainment purposes only, I go back and listen once again. The reason Polyvagal theory is not falsifiable is that the science supporting it is derived from long established, well- substantiated facts in neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neuroendocrinology and embryology. You are very confused. "The vagal nerve is not the 'cause' of social differences." The vagus nerve is simply a conduit. It is affect -reciprocal co-regulatory engagement (i.e., neuroceptive and interoceptive cues of safety or danger) that then results in shifts in vagal regulation and cardiac tone (e.g., RSA). Your quoting of Dr. Doody@ 1:15 , (his points) are risible to the point of utter absurdity. It stands as a laughingstock on the basis of facts. 1) Mammals did not evolve from "modern reptiles" that's correct, however, they did indeed evolve from a common ancestor to both reptiles and mammals. 2) It is both tragically sad and hilarious that you believe that reptiles are social in any shape manner or form like mammals. Reptiles do not engage in nurturing their young, nursing, grooming, playing, laughing; up regulating (affective states of joy) and down regulating (affective states of sadness or crying) through social-engagement. They do not down regulate cues of threat through social play and engagement. Their dominant neuroanatomical and neurophysiological response under threat is to immobilize. They do not have at their disposal the mammalian myelinated ventral vagal complex. Because their oxygenation requirements are 500% less than the mammalian brain, they can without harm immobilize (i.e., feign death) when under life threat. The cardioinhibitory fibers clustered and migrated from the dorsal motor nucleus to form the nucleus ambiguus and significantly coordinate and inter-neuronally link with the five cranial nerves (V, VII, IX, X and XI) to form the social-emotional autonomic nervous system (the ventral vagal complex) of mammals. We don't need to turn to phylogeny but simply our owbn human embryology to see how our physiology and associated pathways ways form. Of course the brain was re-wired in mammals to express sociality and down-regulate defense (i.e., the migration of the cardioinhibitory fibers neuroanatomically linked and coordinated with the five cranial nerves mentioned and visceromotor pathways, sinoatrial node and bronchi forming the ventral vagal complex). That my "informed one" is a truism. It is not even in question! That is not a "just-so" story that is a phylogenetic and neuroanatomical fact! However, we do not need to turn to evolution from a-social reptiles to mammalian autonomic nervous system, we simply can look IN THE PRESENT at how the autonomic nervous system in babies develop, Embryology. They transition precisely through the same stages, dorsal motor nucleus to a myelinated ventral vagal complex. "Heart-rate variability is not the reason we over-react in certain situations." Heart rate variability and specifically RSA is a window, a measurement of the efficiency of the vagal brake, which reflects, key word, reflects ( NOT causes) how safe, unsafe or withdrawal/shut down we feel with others and our environment. You have it backwards. Cited in some 15,000 peer-reviewed articles. The theory is not wrong.
Neil, why are all your comments so acidic and aggressive when discussing this topic ? this is not the first video I find your comments on and it seems very personal to you, the way you address this points you are trying to make and the way you speak to some people in your responses. What is going on here ?
@@RaduP3 "What is going on here? Well for the life of me, I simply don't know? I am, alas, at a complete and utter lost! Perhaps some deep pondering or reflective supervision is in order? What you say? If you have something meaningful to say with respect to Polyvagal Theory and my comments about the theory then by all means do so! Otherwise, spare me! There are so many inaccuracies here and elsewhere, but most probably due to a lack of education on the well-established and substantive evidence in neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neuroendocrinology and mammalian and human embryology, where Polyvagal Theory is derived. So speculations, assertions and doubts about what it is actually saying and its questionable status or legitimacy is enormously frustrating! Those who are misinformed either due to a lack of understanding of Polyvagal theory or in other instances, shall we say, should know better and thus willfully misleading (not here), essentially strawman arguments that have been completely and entirely debunked is not acceptable!
No matter how impressed you are with respect to what Taylor is saying, his assertions are NOT supported by the facts! The cardioinhibitory neuronal fibers migrated from the dorsal motor nucleus to the nucleus ambiguus forming the mammalian ventral vagal complex, which is IN FACT neuroanatomically linked and coordinated with the five cranial nerves (V, facial nerve, VII, trigeminal nerve, IX, glossopharyngeal nerve, X, Vagus nerve and XI Accessory nerve. They are connected by interneurons. This has never been disputed by any scientific peer reviewed journal. "However, Porges is wrong that the vagal system is responsible for social interactions such as facial expression and head turning." This is entirely inaccurate. What are the other cranial nerves? Do you know what they are? Did you know that the outer perimeter of the nucleus ambiguus is where the facial nerve forms? Do you understand that sucking, swallowing and vocalization is an integral part of calming and in normal and healthy infancy a high baseline RSA and the beginnings of social-emotional regulation/engagement? Do you understand that the striated muscles of the face, cranial nerve V innervates the ossicle chain, the small middle ear muscles, namely the stapedius muscles as well as other cranial nerves? We are talking about coordinated neuronal pathways of the cranial nerves. However the five cranial mentioned nerves and the two visceromotor pathways (i.e., specifically the ventral vagal complex) is a fundamental part of how the fetus myelinated brain during the third trimester develops. Please take a look at Embryology. During the first six months (forgive me for repeating myself) the corticoreticular pathways begin to be transferred or re-purposed to more corticobulbar pathways with projections to other myelinated developing parts of the central nervous system. So the SAME SYSTEM (the ventral vagal complex as it further myelinates (the child acquires more agency), becomes part of social-affective reciprocal cueing with the mother (i.e., back and forth deepening affect reciprocal attachment, back and forth vocalization and play). Of course the parasympathetic ventral vagal complex (social-engagement) sympathetic-adrenal system (fight/flight) and the dorsal motor complex (reduction of metabolic output and immobilization under threat) are phylogenetically and hierarchically ordered! All are different adaptations of one system. I am sorry but with all due respect, it is embarrassing and patently absurd to make such a misleading and false statement about the ventral vagal complex!
"The cardioinhibitory neuronal fibers migrated from the dorsal motor nucleus to the nucleus ambiguus forming the mammalian ventral vagal complex, which is IN FACT neuroanatomically linked and coordinated with the five cranial nerves (V, facial nerve, VII, trigeminal nerve, IX, glossopharyngeal nerve, X, Vagus nerve and XI Accessory nerve. They are connected by interneurons." Oh come on. To speak in your language, this is simply 'sesquipedalian'. This coming from someone who uses some PVT in their work.
@@rufia75 I am truly sorry if you are neuroceptively-interoceptively interpreting (taking out of context what needs to be framed given the distortions in this presentation) in such, how shall we say, adolescent short attention span with heightened sympathetic adrenal arousal. Sad but amusing! This is coming from someone as well who has been practicing with families of their children both neurotypical and non-neurotypical PVT as the foundation of practice for two decades.
Never seen your videos before but I'm thankful I came across this one - I love how you explain your thought process and approach to assessing this argument. A great illustration of critical thinking. Thank you!
Your analysis was very helpful to my efforts to grapple with this very same subject. I appreciate your process and conclusion.
So interesting. I personally find polyvagal theory baffling even on its own terms. There's so much talk of people being 'stuck' in defensive states, and the need to move through sympathetic, up the ladder into ventral, then in the same breath we're told that we first need to move into ventral in order to 'unstick' a defensive state! Total paradox as far as I can see. I can't make head nor tail of it.
This is such and awesome exposition of the subject!!! Thank you so much for your efforts, you have even a great setup for recording! I wish this had reached more people , I think maybe the title isn't helping maybe something like Why the PVT is a myth and why that may not be that bad or something like that. My point is that it may be titled like an article and in youtube there is more to the creating curiosity (: not clickbait or anything but something that sparks that curiosity, I think in your title people that "asupport" the theory may dismiss it and even be offende, and the people that dismiss the theory may be like ikr? next video haha and you actually have so much more to offer to both camps. This is truly great (: I wil check out all youother videos.
Wow! I'm really impressed and I will definitely check out the rest of your content.
Hope you don't mind, but I'll take a shot at a question.
I would love to hear your thoughts on NLP, neurologistic language programming.
It's not scientifically proven in every aspect, but with a practical approach and a critical mind to explore it, everybody can put it to good use in a way that suits them.
You can't simply replace your senses and reactions to replicate a successful athlete for instace, if you're wanting to be good at high jumping, but keep stopping before the bar. However you can work on different aspects of your behaviour and ultimately get closer, kind of using a scientific method of researching yourself and running the change process as a project.
It's an entire world and my favorite speaker and coach is a Swedish one, named Kjell Enhager, who also has English videos.
3 examples of how body language is not universal:
1. In India, there are not one, but several nuanced variations of what Westerners know as “nodding”.
2. Bulgarians shake their heads for “Yes”, and nod for “No”
3. Most Asians do not gesture “Come here” the way Westerners do. They would consider that degrading - since it is reserved for animals. They wave their hand in a flapping motion towards the ground.
Also, most all cultural responses are quite different in collectivist (Asian) societies as opposed to individualistic cultures (American, British, Australian, Canadian, etc.).
That has zero to do with PVT. Cultural variation with respect to the specific semantic facial and somatic expressed form does not contravene the clearly visible and underlying autonomic state. Galvanic skin response, the pupils of the eyes (ie, parasympathetic relaxed state and constricted or sympathetic excited state, enlarged); heart rate variability and vocal inflection/intonation - irrespective of phenotypical or particular external cultural form does not lie! They are in fact identical.
Take an Indian or Bulgarian or a Papua New Guinean when suddenly happening upon a tiger facing them will have identical sympathies adrenal fight/flight or in other cases (depending upon the person) dorsal vasovagal syncope (ie, parasympathetic metabolic shutdown or fainting/passing out).
As far as the effects of RSA (respiratory sinus arrhythmia) being questionable is simply untrue. Look at apnea, tachycardia and neurogenic bradycardia in SIDS amongst preemies born prior to 28 weeks. The protective myelinated (ventral) vagus is simply not there. There is a direct causal relationship. Much of Steve’s work is entirely borne out by human embryology.
What do you think of attachment theory ?
Funny you ask! Not sure why there isn't a UA-cam version of this one; I'll have to try to track it down: yourparentingmojo.com/captivate-podcast/attachmentresearch/
@@YourParentingMojo thank you !
@@YourParentingMojo I had a chance to review that literature . Thank you . Nonetheless, attachment theory still has therapeutic value in my opinion even if it’s not totally accurate .
Thank you for all your work on this. I’ve been wondering about the legitimacy of PVT and this is exactly what I’ve been looking for
Polyvagal theory bases its theory on the role of the vagus nerve, however scientists with extensive experience and knowledge about the vagus nerve have debunked Porges data and theory. Still its a very helpful model for psychotherapy.
No one has debunked it. Paul Grossman is a disgruntled physiologist who became an antagonist because working along similar lines Porges developed the theory first. Grossman and Taylor’s straw man argument do not address the central tenets of the theory of the phylogenetic and hierarchical transition from a-social reptiles to social mammals, which finds its core evidentiary facts in human embryology. What they present are at best interesting facts but not central to the theory and egregiously and shamefully are, in fact, strawman arguments! A couple of other outliers as well, which simply do NOT understand the basis of the theory rooted in how the mammalian autonomic nervous system develops. Porges is cited in approximately 15,000 peer reviewed articles.
I love how this guy is trying to discredit Paul Grossman who is well respected in his field. No self respecting physiologist supports Porges, most just don't bother spending any energy debunking him because the "theory" and the utter nonsense he spouts about physiology is such fundamental garbage they don't imagine anyone would fall for it. Unfortunately, therapists are a credulous lot (including me once upon a time) so the nonsense has spread far and wide. Thank goodness Grossman decided to rescue anyone smart enough to see that the emperor has no clothes.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Contrary! He rescued you into further delusion and you need a pair of new clothes! It is my darling, Paul Grossman who had not somewhat but completely and entirely discredited . His arguments are strawman arguments that have no merit; meaning; nada, to do with the neuroanatomical and neurophysiological foundations of Polyvagal Theory which is based upon existing science. It is “willful misunderstanding” of Polyvagal Theory. He is essentially disgruntled because Steve beat him to it.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampaPaul Grossman is a disgruntled physiologist as he too was exploring phylogeny and RSA (respiratory sinus arrhythmia, measurement cardiac vagal tone) but Porges presented the Polyvagal Theory first. He is virtually the lone dissenter or one of very few but the most spoken and has been partly but completely and unequivocally discredited .
@@Neilgs LOL. Ok, sir. Whatever. As I said in an other comment, Predictive processing reduces the entire bag of PV garbage ideas to folk psychological nonsense. But hey, enjoy your steak while that ship sinks,
You raise some interesting points and I appreciate the level of detail. I wanted to address this comment: "surely if PVT were completely invalid, there would be an absolute dog pile of research from people anxious to disprove it." In reality, what I have heard from researchers is most could care less about PVT because to them it is so obviously wrong. They simply don't have the time for it.
Honestly, you do not know what you are talking about. Polvagal Theory has been cited in over 20,000+ peer reviewed publications since its inception.
So good! Thanks. I'm always looking for good explanations of why this is a myth to send to my friends and colleagues. I'm a bit less measured than you, lol, so this is a good resource. The betrayal I felt was gigantic when I realized (after understanding Lisa Feldman Barrett's work) that PV was junk. I couldn't believe that all my teachers had been teaching me scientific myths about brain function. And though they are no longer my teachers, it irks me that they still are teaching this junk as if it's science. It's kind of infuriating, and I'm on a mission to make sure as many people as possible know it's junk science. Therapists deserve better. They deserve to know that it's a story, perhaps a useful one, but nothing more. Anyway, thanks again.
You really don't know what you are talking about, it is truly an embarrassment! If you understood neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neuroendocrinology as well as phylogeny and human embryology which apparently you do not, perhaps you would arrive at a different conclusion. Polyvagal Theory is cited in over 15,000 peer reviewed articles.
To infer that there is no new understanding of the vagus is just simple and pure ignorance. There are clear neuroanatomical and neurophysiological distinctions between the primitive dorsal motor nucleus (solitary tract), a sympathetic-adrenal nervous system and the nucleus ambiguus that emerged with mammals approx. 220 million years ago with five clustered cranial nerves (V, VII, IX, X and XI) and the two myelinated viceromotor pathways connected to the bronchi and sinoatrial node, hence constituting what is referred to as, "the ventral vagal complex." Furthermore, one does not need to find the common ancestor both to reptiles and mammals, In other words, just turn to phylogeny to clearly understand the transitional maturation of the autonomic nervous but rather to human embryology and prematurity, post utero prior to 28 weeks where the babies are vulnerable to apneas and neurogenic bradycardia. As far as Neuroception, it is largely situated in the FG (FFA of the FG, fusiform face area), the superior temporal sulcus and the temporal parietal junction. Essentially, interpreting cues of safety from cues of danger, biological motion in contrast to mechanical motion. Interoception significantly involves the insular. This is not some careless speculation or "Just so story" but an integral part of Affective Neuroscience.
@Neilgs - 😂LOL. We'll have to agree to disagree. I stand by my statement. PV ideas are garbage pseudoscience. No self respecting physiologist supports this nonsense. Predictive brain function renders it folk psychological gobbledygook. But hey, enjoy your steak while the ship sinks. 🍻
😂LOL, we'll have to agree to disagree. No self respecting physiologist supports this garbage. Predictive processing reduces PV ideas to folk psychological garbage too. But hey, enjoy your steak as the ship sinks. 🍻
@@Neilgs LOLLLLLLLLLL. Bro, you done drank the coolaid. It's all good. Enjoy that poison.
Hi. I am an RN, the owner of the Marina's Emotional Support as well as CTMH-A and SSP provider, and ISPW facilitator. It seems to me that, taking from your own words, you do not really understand PVT. I doubt also that you have any background in analyzing research. With all due respect, I must say that It would be helpful to get educated first because otherwise, you are repeating non-sense said by other people and spreading misinformation. Paul Grossman has not come up with his own theory, he just started attacking someone else's because he himself never looked at his traumas that prevent him from seeing clearly. Whatever arguments he presented do not really apply. Lizards do not nurse their young - period the end. He never reached out to Dr. Porges to discuss his concerns either but rather went ahead with his agenda to discredit his work, which btw, I find revolutionary. PVT already helped so many people realize their humanness and be on the road to recovery that no Paul Grossman and others who are on the same page with him, can stop it.
Core affective emotions are universally hardwired, parabrachial nucleus, part of the lateral reticular formation, the periacqueductal gray, hypothalamus, etc. Seeking System/Curiosity, Panic, Sadness, Rage, Lust,, Nurturance/love, Play/Laughter. The outward various cultural expressions may subtly vary but they are identical with respect to accompanied autonomic state. If you prefer looking at animals they are the same. Lisa Barrett who you cite, the darling of cognitive neuroscience is actually fringe and doesn’t hold a candle to Mark Solmes and the father of Affective Neuroscience who actually correlated, mapped these systems empirically, Jaak Panksepp.
Good video
Great video. I like you.
In regards to the coherence model you mentioned. You say didn't really show proof. I don't necessarily have any proof....but heartmath might have some good information for you.
You seem to love drama. Why there is so much drama around everything these days. What comes to polyvagal theory. It has helped me a lot to control my stresslevels. I understand that medical industry hates pvt, cause people can get help without drugs through breathing and balancing autonomic nervesystem. Could it be that research doesnt get any funding because results might be harmful for medical industry 🤔
You are not autistic.
For entertainment purposes only, I go back and listen once again. The reason Polyvagal theory is not falsifiable is that the science supporting it is derived from long established, well- substantiated facts in neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neuroendocrinology and embryology.
You are very confused. "The vagal nerve is not the 'cause' of social differences." The vagus nerve is simply a conduit. It is affect -reciprocal co-regulatory engagement (i.e., neuroceptive and interoceptive cues of safety or danger) that then results in shifts in vagal regulation and cardiac tone (e.g., RSA).
Your quoting of Dr. Doody@ 1:15 , (his points) are risible to the point of utter absurdity. It stands as a laughingstock on the basis of facts. 1) Mammals did not evolve from "modern reptiles" that's correct, however, they did indeed evolve from a common ancestor to both reptiles and mammals. 2) It is both tragically sad and hilarious that you believe that reptiles are social in any shape manner or form like mammals. Reptiles do not engage in nurturing their young, nursing, grooming, playing, laughing; up regulating (affective states of joy) and down regulating (affective states of sadness or crying) through social-engagement. They do not down regulate cues of threat through social play and engagement. Their dominant neuroanatomical and neurophysiological response under threat is to immobilize. They do not have at their disposal the mammalian myelinated ventral vagal complex. Because their oxygenation requirements are 500% less than the mammalian brain, they can without harm immobilize (i.e., feign death) when under life threat.
The cardioinhibitory fibers clustered and migrated from the dorsal motor nucleus to form the nucleus ambiguus and significantly coordinate and inter-neuronally link with the five cranial nerves (V, VII, IX, X and XI) to form the social-emotional autonomic nervous system (the ventral vagal complex) of mammals. We don't need to turn to phylogeny but simply our owbn human embryology to see how our physiology and associated pathways ways form.
Of course the brain was re-wired in mammals to express sociality and down-regulate defense (i.e., the migration of the cardioinhibitory fibers neuroanatomically linked and coordinated with the five cranial nerves mentioned and visceromotor pathways, sinoatrial node and bronchi forming the ventral vagal complex). That my "informed one" is a truism. It is not even in question! That is not a "just-so" story that is a phylogenetic and neuroanatomical fact! However, we do not need to turn to evolution from a-social reptiles to mammalian autonomic nervous system, we simply can look IN THE PRESENT at how the autonomic nervous system in babies develop, Embryology. They transition precisely through the same stages, dorsal motor nucleus to a myelinated ventral vagal complex.
"Heart-rate variability is not the reason we over-react in certain situations." Heart rate variability and specifically RSA is a window, a measurement of the efficiency of the vagal brake, which reflects, key word, reflects ( NOT causes) how safe, unsafe or withdrawal/shut down we feel with others and our environment. You have it backwards.
Cited in some 15,000 peer-reviewed articles. The theory is not wrong.
Neil, why are all your comments so acidic and aggressive when discussing this topic ? this is not the first video I find your comments on and it seems very personal to you, the way you address this points you are trying to make and the way you speak to some people in your responses. What is going on here ?
@@RaduP3 "What is going on here? Well for the life of me, I simply don't know? I am, alas, at a complete and utter lost! Perhaps some deep pondering or reflective supervision is in order? What you say?
If you have something meaningful to say with respect to Polyvagal Theory and my comments about the theory then by all means do so! Otherwise, spare me!
There are so many inaccuracies here and elsewhere, but most probably due to a lack of education on the well-established and substantive evidence in neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, neuroendocrinology and mammalian and human embryology, where Polyvagal Theory is derived. So speculations, assertions and doubts about what it is actually saying and its questionable status or legitimacy is enormously frustrating!
Those who are misinformed either due to a lack of understanding of Polyvagal theory or in other instances, shall we say, should know better and thus willfully misleading (not here), essentially strawman arguments that have been completely and entirely debunked is not acceptable!
@@Neilgs QED
Everybody got a gris-gris.
You're really Somebody!
@@adhdself-loveWhat a delightfully inane or vacuous remark.
No matter how impressed you are with respect to what Taylor is saying, his assertions are NOT supported by the facts! The cardioinhibitory neuronal fibers migrated from the dorsal motor nucleus to the nucleus ambiguus forming the mammalian ventral vagal complex, which is IN FACT neuroanatomically linked and coordinated with the five cranial nerves (V, facial nerve, VII, trigeminal nerve, IX, glossopharyngeal nerve, X, Vagus nerve and XI Accessory nerve. They are connected by interneurons. This has never been disputed by any scientific peer reviewed journal.
"However, Porges is wrong that the vagal system is responsible for social interactions such as facial expression and head turning."
This is entirely inaccurate. What are the other cranial nerves? Do you know what they are? Did you know that the outer perimeter of the nucleus ambiguus is where the facial nerve forms? Do you understand that sucking, swallowing and vocalization is an integral part of calming and in normal and healthy infancy a high baseline RSA and the beginnings of social-emotional regulation/engagement? Do you understand that the striated muscles of the face, cranial nerve V innervates the ossicle chain, the small middle ear muscles, namely the stapedius muscles as well as other cranial nerves? We are talking about coordinated neuronal pathways of the cranial nerves.
However the five cranial mentioned nerves and the two visceromotor pathways (i.e., specifically the ventral vagal complex) is a fundamental part of how the fetus myelinated brain during the third trimester develops. Please take a look at Embryology. During the first six months (forgive me for repeating myself) the corticoreticular pathways begin to be transferred or re-purposed to more corticobulbar pathways with projections to other myelinated developing parts of the central nervous system. So the SAME SYSTEM (the ventral vagal complex as it further myelinates (the child acquires more agency), becomes part of social-affective reciprocal cueing with the mother (i.e., back and forth deepening affect reciprocal attachment, back and forth vocalization and play).
Of course the parasympathetic ventral vagal complex (social-engagement) sympathetic-adrenal system (fight/flight) and the dorsal motor complex (reduction of metabolic output and immobilization under threat) are phylogenetically and hierarchically ordered! All are different adaptations of one system.
I am sorry but with all due respect, it is embarrassing and patently absurd to make such a misleading and false statement about the ventral vagal complex!
"The cardioinhibitory neuronal fibers migrated from the dorsal motor nucleus to the nucleus ambiguus forming the mammalian ventral vagal complex, which is IN FACT neuroanatomically linked and coordinated with the five cranial nerves (V, facial nerve, VII, trigeminal nerve, IX, glossopharyngeal nerve, X, Vagus nerve and XI Accessory nerve. They are connected by interneurons."
Oh come on. To speak in your language, this is simply 'sesquipedalian'. This coming from someone who uses some PVT in their work.
@@rufia75 I am truly sorry if you are neuroceptively-interoceptively interpreting (taking out of context what needs to be framed given the distortions in this presentation) in such, how shall we say, adolescent short attention span with heightened sympathetic adrenal arousal. Sad but amusing! This is coming from someone as well who has been practicing with families of their children both neurotypical and non-neurotypical PVT as the foundation of practice for two decades.