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How to listen to 'difficult' music | Philosophy Sundays
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2023
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Listen to my music here: andyedwards.ba...
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I am a drummer, producer and educator. I talk about Jazz, Prog and Fusion and the cultural context in which music has been, and is made. And sometimes, if you are lucky, I go off on one...
andyedwards.bandcamp.com/track/the-neurosis-daemon
Superb.
Is that the track at the very end of the video?
Dope.
I like your drumming style. That track is held together knowing you have a drummer you can rely on. The CD in the video, even with your approach is unlistenable. I always imagine the band laughing at me after just having bought the album...
@@kzustang YES
I find Andy's videos well thought out and always informed. All these topics just flow from him unscripted. Not only is that a real talent, its indicative of someone who's studied deeply and can convey that knowledge and insight in a really accessible way. Education and entertainment at its best. Refreshing compared to some similar channels on YT. I dont even bother with them now.
Such a kind comment
Well said. I agree.
Andy's channel is probably the most interesting channel on YT today. The way he makes really deep and profound points by just "wiggling" it and pulling everything in a coherent and concise manner is awesome. I actually don't bother watching a lot of channels now and surely not TV. I go to YT and check what's up on Andy's schedule.
@@kzustangAgreed. As I keep saying - Beats Beato! There's nothing sycophantic about Andy.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Andy, you're the Professor!
The first tune is what most people think jazz sounds like. What a great start.
I saw Cecil Taylor perform in NY about a dozen times. The 1st time I saw him, I was 18 years old. He played with a 10 pc band. I experienced something with his music I never experienced before: panic. I almost fled but something made me ride it out. The 2nd time I saw him (Fat Tuesdays, NYC, I believe,) I brought two female classmates with me. We had a table right next to Cecil. He spent the set staring at us in disbelief. I saw him again with a friend At Seventh Avenue South, NYC. My friend met Cecil in the men's room. My friend said, "I feel I should bow to you." Cecil replied, "Not in the Men's, okay?" lol. You have to go with Cecil's music. Otherwise, you might get hurt.
Was the 10 piece concert around the time of Winged Serpent (Sliding Quadrants)?
@@RichardSmith-ot3zk Wish I could remember. I do remember sitting next to Charlie Haden and Wynton Marsalis though.
@@lukameah853!,Kkk
KKK😮
@RicharddSmith Love that album. Is it with the Global Unity Orchestra (or something like that)?
I think the trick is just to keep listening over and over to the same record. After a while you often start to hear it in a different way. I remember the first time I heard trout mask. I knew it wasnt bad but it was just too much. So I listened to nothing else for a week. Trout mask twice a day! after a week I was singing along and I love it. Its all about patience and meditation ;-)
When I buy new music I usually put it on repeat and listen for at least a day (I’m retired and around the house a lot) and sometimes as much as 5 or 6 days. My wife doesn’t always appreciate the effort.
All the successful Raindancers won‘t stop until it rains.
I own an OG UK pressing of TMR on the Straight label and it's one of my prized possessions.
I also love that other people can't stand to hear it, but I'm a bit twizted like that 🥴
Exactly
Spoon feed your ears and brain
That CD feels good when it stops. Makes you appreciate silence.
My first “ difficult music” was Coltrane , Live at the VV1961. It turned my head upside down and on repeated listens over time, it became a favorite.
I’m looking forward to this one, I think you thoughtfully chose the term“difficult” over other possible terms. See you on Sunday.
Spot on. If you watch Andy you’ve probably listened to quite a bit of difficult music already. So I hope some other people randomly bump into this video. Loved the end music!
Haha when you played the opening chaos I thought "This sounds like an someone drunk wanting to play like Sonny Sharrock". Sure enough, it's Sonny! And Herbie Hancock on Piano.
I think one's philosophy of life also plays a role. If you think like is all about getting as much pleasure as possible, then you will never put in the effort required to listen to difficult music. If, on the other hand, you see life as a spiritual journey of growth, then you might deem it valuable to listen to something that doesn't automatically trigger a dopamine release.
Absolutely brilliant video! The best thing I've seen (and heard) about listening to music. Thanks Andy. We need to speak!
I talk to my Patrons all the time
You really should try this Patron thing. It rocks!
Plug your ears in. What’s difficult? The output of Tim Smith? Song X with Pat and Ornette? Stockhausen? Debussy? Sleaford Mods? LCD Soundsystem? Billy Nomates? Difficult is in the ears of the beholder or listener. I think I’m preaching to the converted 😂.
Stockhausen, definitely!!!!!!!!!!!
Donkey Torture is a great band name.
Long ago I discovered that some of my favorite albums were ones that took me a while to 'get', henceforth I hold my judgement in abeyance. I am reminded to of the zen aspect that there is hearing, but no hear-er...The one who is the hear-er is a mental construct depending upon time and memory, yet there is a visceral attraction or repulsion that seems to happen. It took years for 'me' to appreciate the genius of Mahler... perhaps it comes down to personal resonance, vibration, frequency?
that is the sign of a talented listener
Anyone who has experienced drums/space at a Grateful Dead show knows what Andy is talking about. Listening to Cecil Taylor is also a good start.
Anthony Braxton is a genius.
His body of work for quartet is MINDBLOWING!!!
I'm listening to it on double speed .it sounds pretty good
I could hear a Sonny Sharrock Influence in that first bit of "music" you put on. Now thats Free Jazz.
Well spotted...it was Sonny Sharrock
Many thanks for that imaginative video, Andy. Yes, a good question: how does the listener get into 'difficult music'? Answer: gradually. IMO, there are aural pathways that the inquisitive listener can explore that will gradually (album by album) prepare them for music at the outer limits (and by outer limits I don't necessarily mean screaming noise albums). Quieter music can also be difficult.
For example, a listener could start by exploring the more adventurous hard bop albums of the 1960s like Destination Out by Jackie McLean and Out To Lunch by Eric Dolphy. From those albums on to Free Fall by Jimmy Giuffre and then on to Karyobin by Spontaneous Music Ensemble. So that would be a gradual move from hard bop to free improvisation. To expect a listener to jump into the deep end of difficult music without any preparation will almost certainly result in a bad experience. Happy difficult listening!
The big split is the fun of playing versus the effort of listening. Very different.
I love your philosophy Sundays. Keep it going!!
Thank you! Will do!
When I was 18 I started to listen to Stockhausen Klavierstucke and Schoenberg Berio etc...
So it was a natural thing to listen to "difficult" jazz music without suffering ...
Brilliant! 😂🤣 This had me in stitches. Cheers Andy. 🙂👍
Hi Andy, I’m having a relaxing Sunday watching you. Well I had a big bike ride in the morning. Anyways I finally got to see some live music after being held prisoner from this global virus.
My daughter bought me for my birthday a pair of tickets to see the American band The War on Drugs last Friday night. We went to this small intimate venue in Montreal. An amazing band. We both went and got stock in with the crowd and danced for two hours. I’m 58 and she’s 26, both naquered (f.. tired) but it was nice to share a concert together. We had beers bought tee shirts really nice. She loves going to shows I wish I took her to see Rush back then. Just wanted to share.
Sorry nothing difficult
lovely little story that explains why music is the best
Great video. I think there is also a time element involved (investment of time as well as mind). When you put it on I didn't like it but as it went on my "filters" adjusted and I started getting into it. Reminded me of reading Russell Hoban's Riddley Walker. It is written in a post-apocalyptic English (English as imagined devolved and many years in the future). When you start it is a slow uncomfortable slog and a couple of chapters in its like reading anything else. Not an exact parallel but the point is that there is a required mimimum exposure to get into something novel.
"Well that's just...your opinion, man."
---The Dude
I've gotten to the point where if I hear something that challenges my expectations, I don't run from it. I want to understand it. That's how you can develop a wider pallet and more diverse taste. Largely because of that, I appreciate music more than ever, from the visceral to the sublime.
I always viewed music I couldn't understand as a personal challenge for growth, but after 13 years old I was listening as a learning musician.
I wasn't really listening for comfort (not that I find anything wrong with that as a motivation to listen). But that was my progression. I definitely had to work my way up to free jazz and experimental music. Then in my 20s I got into more mainstream classical, and minimalism, but my earlier experiences had already twisted me irrevocably! I find much pre-20th century classical pretty difficult to listen to without getting irritated!
I don't listen to screaming madness all the time; but I got used to the language.
Thanks for another great interesting and thought provoking video.. For some reason I kinda forgot about Last Exit; so I put on my record of "Cassette Recordings 87". The energy and power is tremendous! Sonny Sharrock!
Finale was awesome!
And there's that French female composer....love it.Éliane Radigue
At 10.22 I was expecting 'bollocks' !
I listened to Lou Reed’s Metal Machine Music last week, never again.
Aww, didn't you like the dolphins?
It's interesting...when I think about it, I very rarely listen to music for pure pleasure. When I listen to almost anything, I immediately imagine how it could be used in a film. When it comes to my absolute favorite albums, the film thing comes into play, but then creeps in the feeling that this is music I want to make.
This show covered kinds of things that I expect on Samuel Andreyev's site. I was first introduced to this sort of thing by the first Mothers of Invention album, Freak Out, where Zappa did a few tracks in the style of "Musique Concrete", inspired by Stockhausen, Varese and Penderecki. Other "Rock" albums exploring this world include Trout Mask Replica and Machine Metal Music, but this kind of thing even showed up in some early fusion, such as "Fletcher's Blemish" on Soft Machine 4. For me, a little of this goes a long way. Intellectually, I can understand the concept, but I would be deceiving myself to say I actually enjoyed it. An angle that probably bears some consideration is what drives musicians to perform such pieces? A small group might be attracted to the intellectual angle behind this, but it risks alienating a much broader group that might otherwise listen. I suspect this kind of thing drove away much of the audience that listened to jazz in the early 1960s.
The hardest avant garde for me to get into is by far Derek Bailey. I love a lot of difficult/experimental stuff but Bailey is completely out there lol. At first it just sounded like noise but after about a year of trying various albums I finally can see what he’s going for. For me the key to liking it is throwing away all the pre conceived notions about music and immersing yourself in the “sound”. With this kind of stuff it’s more about music as art, for me anyway. I love composers like Varese, Cage, and Schoenberg too but Derek took me awhile lol. I will say I’m not too keen on the shrieking sax that free jazz often features, it just gets grating to my ears. I really love guys like Nels Cline, Marc Ribot (Zorn too), Frith with Henry Cow, Art Bears, his solo record, Fripp, Zappa, etc. I love the guys that can balance the extreme stuff with beauty like that.
Try the one on Tzadik with Jamaladeen Tacuma and Grant Calvin Weston. The Ornette Coleman/James Blood Ulmer Riddim Duo makes his Music easier to follow.
I’ve got that album with Tacuma. The stuff on there is pretty accessible.
Wow thanks for the recommendation, great stuff. It seems like his style works better playing with a rhythm section. I also found one called Pieces for Guitar on Tzadik and it’s pretty good. It’s only a few years after he decided to play free stuff, more accessible
Some folks in my area participate in a monthly event called the "Sacramento Audio Waffle," which varies in length from two to three hours. There's also an annual three-day event called "NORCAL Noise Fest." As you might have guessed from the name of the three-day event, what is presented is noise. Or, perhaps, "Noise."
The artists put together wonderful conglomerations of devices - some of which they made themselves - that create a large variety of wave forms, modify them, screw them around; I have no understanding of how they do it. Sometimes an artist will use a recognizable instrument as the starting point, like a guitar, a Theremin, or drums. Most often one just sees a collection of knob-heavy electronic boxes wired together.
For the very most part the artists take care not to present any noises that would be considered musical. Sometimes there's a kind of throbbing rhythm when a very low rumble is repeated, but it certainly does not set time for any of the other sounds.
It's important to note that it's best experienced live. The sound is really loud - one has to wear earplugs - and enveloping. One of the ideas of it is to get lost in overwhelming sound. When I say that it is best experienced live I mean that I have pretty much no inclination to listen to recordings of it, as they are completely beside the point of the experience of being in a somewhat darkened room with other humans being assaulted by noise created on the spot. Perhaps it's somewhat analogous to the CD you discussed - it's interesting that someone would make it, but one probably doesn't actually want to listen to it!
Is it art? Sure. Is it enjoyable? Sometimes. Sometimes one just endures it. (I admit that a couple of times lately I have left before all the acts have been presented.) Does it present the listener with an opportunity to develop and ponder ideas, to break through limitations, to shatter expectations? Well, maybe!
("Noise" events take place all across the United States of America (I almost said "America" - oops!), and I imagine they take place all around the world in places where people have sufficient time and money and security to be able to indulge in such bizarre activity.)
Noise is great...I like noise
Brilliantly off the wall mate. Come to our gig at the Servent Jazz Quarters next Saturday night as GOMM
Oh this is my kind of guitar player.
so one more of:
ua-cam.com/video/-6X-au2E4cw/v-deo.html
@@scoop1178 - fantastic. Dude doesn't look Irish. Seriously, this is almost exactly how I warm up on guitar, I had no idea other folk played like this. Jimi did, especially at Woodstock. Thank you for this.
Brilliant as always.
Now on the "donkey torture."
A band searching for a band name, watching your video, is going to vote: "Yes, Donkey Torture...we are Donkey Torture!"
And it is a great band name!!!
And cheers for more philos...
Steve
Marvellous :) We learnt exactly this at school when doing poetry for our O Levels c.75, the two poets being Robert Frost and Wilfred Owen, and I've tried to consider the artist's intentions ever since, across all media. You're getting very Stewart Lee, Andy (meant as a compliment). Cheers, Ian
I'm a big fan of Stewart Lee
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I wondered if you might be :)
I think that first song played represented the violence inherit in the system
An old girlfriend described jazz as ‘scales and squeaks’.
The intro must be some of this “difficult” music you speak of
Giant Steps...the test piece for jazz musicians and random clanging cymbals....
Yes, there is a spider on the wall behind your record case ,next to the guitar chord books.
We should invent spider gloves for guitarists. Add three more fingers to our left hand and are controlled with a chip in our brain. Kind of like Doc Ock
Beautiful message.
FYI " Help me Moe I" m going Blind " Is a line in the movie " Stand by Me," . THAT line was a nod to a " Three stooges " comedy short.
ahhhh...of course!
Musicianship and composition are two very different aspects of music. Some instrumentalists can't really compose great music whereas some composers are not that great instrumentalists. The best are those who compose AND play their own great music : Paul Mccartney, Stevie Wonder, Todd Rundgren, Christian Vander, etc.
Listening to anything once is never enough. IMy favorite artist is Todd Rundgren and I knew right from the start that I would have to listen at least 5 times any new album from his before starting to get what it was all about.
That said, I once purchased Trout Mask Replica when I was young and couldn't finish first listen. And never felt the desire to give it a second chance.
Andy I wish someone would address bands that preform drunk or stoned and ruin the show and how that is an insult to the fans that paid for the show
There's a couple of great textbooks by Jerry Coker, Listening To Jazz and Playing Jazz. Small books but fully packed.
First band sound great - similar to a lot of underground extreme metal -love it
Edit
Imperial Triumphant were an extremely difficult listen for me until I went to see them live~after that I got them completely ……absolute brilliance (free form black metal/jazz fusion)
What is music and what is noise? The ear of the artist and the beholder?
Well...that was fun. 'Course partly because the start was so tedious. I liked the bit about imagining a movie. Used to have a conductor would twizzle his fingers by his upper lip to bring to mind an oily villain from an old silent movie.
There is some validity to both perspectives: those who say something is not the form of art it purports to be, and those who say it is. A lot of the mainstream rap you hear on the radio is music; it's just very bad. But when someone claims to be reading a poem to you, and it has no rhyme, nor alliteration, nor meter, nor repetition, nor any kind of unifying device like that, it's just not poetry.
There is a lot to be said for being open-minded. At the end of the experience, though, it makes sense to evaluate what we've heard and see if it feeds our souls, or, contrary-wise, drains them. A critic asks not only "Did this art succeed in what it was trying to do?" but also "Was that thing worth doing in the first place?" See Roger Ebert's review of the movie Chaos for a prime example.
There's a danger of falling into the Andy Warhol trap. People keep talking about this man, and analyzing his work to the nth degree until they convince themselves they've seen something truly special there. But you can do that with anything. Look at anything hard enough, try to convince yourself that it's important, and eventually you'll believe it. But then you're spending time with really bad art, and all the time that you're trying to love it, it's sucking out your soul like some kind of vampire. And then finally, one day, you can't ignore how miserable you are, and you rush for something, anything, made by people who actually have talent. And you look back on how much time you've wasted on crap, and it makes you angry. That's the trap. Sometimes when everything in you screams that some piece of art is actually crap, you should listen, because it's trying to protect you from misery.
Playing devil's advocate. Largely I agree with you. But the alternate perspective needs some good, erudite representation.
A band that goes for a wall of noise but actually creates a true ambience, albeit extremely negative, is Australia's Portal. They teeter on being Black Metal, but really push the boundaries of what music can be, their not somthing I can stand for too long, but I understand the overall feeling their conveying, they literally sound like opening a Portal to an HP Lovecraftian Demonic realm. In a way similar to the Soundtrack for the IDsoftware game Quake 1996 composed by Trent Reznor, which is mostly ambient atmospheric soundscapes rather than music. Portal is like that but absolutely maxxed out.
Good episode today so far, I'm commenting as I listen.
Thanks, I'll check em out 👍
(OK, wow um I don't know what to say, um thanks for sharing something that I never want to revisit again 😂)
I’m still not sure if John Cage’s 4’33” was his idea of an elaborate prank or a legitimate statement, and that’s the point of the piece. And I think that’s your point. Difficult music forces us out of our safe spaces and challenges us to not just listen, but thoughtfully, critically listen. Incidentally that chaos you played sounds like the Carpenters compared to some noise from Merzbow I’ve heard, but I digress… good stuff, Andy. And I loved your part 1, but I’m a weirdo and experimental music enthusiast who just composed a five minute noise track on fridge noise. 😊
For the smooth jazz version of that lovely music you played in the beginning, maybe one could try *Present* ? (or *Univers Zero* ). Or *Gerard Grisley's Grimsby Golf Club Band* ?
Street Priest by Shannon Jackson & The Decoding Society is also a good example. Great album once you get it.
I know it is Fan Talk, but I like every one of his Decoding Society Records. The two Ornette Records he is on are Free Funk Classics. And all the Records of Cecil Taylor he is on are recommended.
BRAXTON🔥
Interesting video Andy !
And there’s me thinking Trout Mask Replica was a difficult listen!
For a lot of people, it still is.
Excellent 😀
There has to be some kind of thread I can hold on to-if not I'm gone....
I was just getting into that...
I do have quite the soft-spot for Sonny Sharrock (thanks Thurston Moore).
But, I am also quite the fan of Noise Bands - Sonic Youth, Gilla Band, Metz, etc...
.
When I was a kid difficult music was Mile Davis, Allan Holdsworth, Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, Frank Zappa, Henry Cow and the avant-garde movement but now I'm a fan of them. Now to me trash music is hip hop and all the top lists of today's music.
I love Hip Hop...most of it is trash however...
Personally I absolutely enjoy dissonant music as well as noisy and chaotic parts. Where I draw the line is the obvious purposefulness of the parts. If it's possible for me to tell that someone in the band messed up in some spot I will likely enjoy the piece. But if it barely matters what they play, as long as it's not a recognizable melody or harmony, then it's just the same crappy musical idea over and over again, just different performances of it.
Yep, appreciation of the arts is a skill that can be developed to increase your enjoyment or decrease your dislike. Most of the unpredictable chaos of life is conveyed by pretty music. Free or industrial music is like my local passing train: mostly dull and irritating. Lennon's Mother is a piece of public personal catharsis I can't listen to because of its intensity. The only LP that gives me anxiety just thinking about spinning it is Laura Nyro's New York Tendaberry (1969), and I do because its intensity is beautiful while often eschewing the rules of singing and songwriting without indulgence.
There is no difficult music. There is taste.
So what is taste? Is there collective taste?
That is not true. Depending on my Mood or my Health certain Music can be hard to Stomach. I do not listen to the best Records of the Clash anymore, I can not stomach them Anymore. They are still great Music.
I found it easy to listen to Cecil Taylor Live, but many of his Records are hard to listen to. The easiest one for me are those from 1978 with Ronald Shannon Jackson and his earliest when he was not yet playing Free Jazz.
Certain Fusion Records with High Pitched Chords are problematic for me eventhough they might be very „harmonic“.
Last Exit works like Clash for me. But Ronald Shannon Jackson makes it accessible.
A varied, rich taste sure has some “difficult” music in it but that does not mean that people who don’t listen to a lot of complex, challenging music have lesser taste. Challenging music might be more thought and emotionally provoking.. it is furthermore a more acquired taste and in a way divides people who love music and people who love (musical) creativity in its rawest forms.
Taste has nothing to do with „Intelligence“. Easy Music is often very hard to compose without sounding boring. Non Boring Easy Music can be great pleasure.
There is absolutely a gradient of listenability. If “difficult” music didn’t exist, there would be no music that requires a development of taste to acquire. Saying there’s only taste makes it sound like it’s someone’s fault for “just not getting” really esoteric or abstract music, when it is absolutely possible to develop your ear to parse “difficult” music. It also flattens the ability to criticize such music on the grounds of whether or not it can be considered “good” or well-composed.
Brilliant video. You really pulled it in to a very well built lesson on aesthetics, chaos and the validity of chaos in music. Beautiful. Love the way these Philosophy Sundays are going. What was that groovy tune at the end? I didn't catch that.
It is one of mine off this, perhaps my best album: andyedwards.bandcamp.com/album/daemon
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Found it. The Neurosis Daemon is the track, and what a brilliant track that is. The whole album is really great. I'm getting it as my Best-Album-Discovery-Of-The-Month gift from me to myself...LOL
I absolutely love your videos man 😎
I appreciate that!
Great humor! 😂
Another top video great subject
Glad you enjoyed it
Very good.
Great video, thanks! How to get difficult art ? You supose or pretend or play that you are in total amnesia . And let the piece of art be the only time and space. And then...Was it interesting ?
Whistling giants steps is difficult
I was not liking Last Exit. Then I looked them up and those some of my favorite musicians. So maybe it's good? How would I know without knowing the musicians?
I saw Cecil Taylor when I was 16, sitting a few feet away, in a jazz club in Fort Worth. (?) It was a long concert and that Feel Trio late 80s stuff I still find difficult. I was fascinated by it, but of course didn't really know what to make of it. A few years later I picked up Live in Bologna and it clicked. I still don't know how he goes into deep grooves without an apparent time signature. A little while later I got Silent Tongues (Jason Marsalis got the name wrong) and that is a masterpiece that I've listened to for 30 years. It's learning a musical language. It's like saying Mandarin is difficult. Not to the people who speak Mandarin.
I saw Henry Threadgill in a club 20 years ago and it was one of the most amazing concerts I've ever seen-- difficult in a chaotic but structured way. I saw him more recently, after he won the Pulitizer. Again, one of the most demanding, highly structured, performances I've seen. But it was a lot quieter, subdued sound and I had no idea what it was about. I'm glad I went, though..
If you haven't listened to Cecil's Live in Bologna, go do that.
spent a lot of evenings at Caravan of Dreams in Ft Worth hearing music I'll never forget--Art Ensemble of Chicago, David Murray Octet, Arthur Blythe, Henry Threadgill...etc. Missed the Cecil Taylor show and regret it to this day.
@@mikewebber3693 We had a family friend who was a jazz dj (how did Sulphur Springs have a jazz dj?) I'd go over with him and he'd sometimes do interviews. The first time there I was maybe 12 and we saw Dizzy Gillespie, close enough that I had to lean back when he emptied his spit valve. Saw all the Marsalises multiple times and hung out backstage with them. I'm critical of Wynton now, but those were great shows. Sam Rivers sat in with Branford one time. Billy Eckstine, somehow. Ronald Shannon Jackson. My brother saw Sun Ra but I missed that one. That was a great jazz club.
@@RichardSmith-ot3zk always knew Caravan was too good to be true and would eventually crater. When it first opened the cover was $6. Spent a lot of evenings seeing world renowned musicians with just a handful of people there. Was amazing while it lasted, lots of great memories!
@@mikewebber3693 It was bankrolled by the oil billionaire Bass brothers. No way that business model was ever sustainable. And for the cover, you could sit anywhere, so we never sat more than 10 feet from the stage. That's an aspect of my rural Texas teenager life that still seems unreal to me.
I loved the shot of the spider's web at the end: 'Filth and squalor abounds in tidy suburbia!'.
You got it...chaos and order!!!! But also life and death
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer and you caught us in your little web of subverted expectations with that purposely muffed opening. 'Filth and dirt abound in every corner, yes!'.
Sunday summer fun (philosophy).
Really interesting and thought-provoking video. As it happens, the first LP by Last Exit is one of my favourite records. You have helped me to understand why I like it!
i never play last exit for other people. they make the locust plague soundscapes look like Kpop.
Good video. Jung had a concept of personal exploration and psychic growth called individuation. Important in this is "shadow work" where we recognise the antitheses of the foundations of our personality. For every good feature we profess to the world, its opposite exists, often buried in our subconscious.
I think that music is an analogue of human experience. Western music has developed access codes to that experience over centuries. The great modern musicians know those codes. But just as you say we resist being taken out of our ordered feel good comfort zone.
The experimentalism of white bands in the 60's and 70's were influenced by eastern thinking, buddhism, hinduism and taoism, which are all about surface and shadow, and by people like Guy Debord, Raoul Vaneigem and Althusser who looked the effects of media and consumerism in imposing a pacified psyche. All this against the background of decades of war and an emergence from austerity.
And here we are today, so pacified and constrained in our comfort zones, that we'd rather carry on consuming than respond to ecological collapse.
Jazz too I think must have been born of the spirit of rebellion, but apart from the obvious response to racial oppression, I don't know enough about writers and activists who influenced the cultural atmosphere to track that. So your earlier videos on how jazz now sounds all the same, may reflect a spreading cultural conformity where we adopt the symbols and language of rebellion so that we can feel rebellious. But because rebellion has turned into a consumerist meme, a personality construct for the modern consumer to feel edgy, it is perhaps in certain respects and unconsciously, a process of conformity.
Great channel. Keep it up.
Jordan Peterson has made Jung the new Tony Robbins...
"Donkey torture" 🤣😂
I love that you're kinda shouting at the camera....
Portal - 'Swarth'. See what you think
I think Frank Zappa listened to Eric Dolphy
He did...and Bob Dylan
Interesting discussion, which reminds me of the time I had first started listening to "difficult" music, avant garde jazz, modern composed music like John Cage, free jazz and everything in between. A friend of mine in Toronto, Bill Grove, was a composer and musician that also hosted a jazz show every Monday morning, where he played whatever he wanted to. A lot of free or composed music with space for improvisation was played by him, which I quite enjoyed and helped me to understand what was out there.
One day he was playing a lot of Ornette Coleman and I called the station to talk with him while the music was playing and commented on how much I enjoyed the Coleman but had to take it in small doses.
His comment to me was that "I was listening to the music wrong". What? How can I listen to music wrong? He suggested that I was listening to it like I would listen to any other type of music in that I was trying to understand the different instruments and their relationship to the music, harmony, melody etc. and each other. I replied that was of course the way I was listening, how else can you listen to music and understand it? He told me to try to just listen without a lot of analysis in real time. Your brain can't decipher all that information at once and becomes tired trying. He told me to let the music wash over me without overt analysis and my brain will sort everything out by itself. I found out that he was right. For the past 40 years or so that is how I've been listening to difficult music and have found that to be some very helpful advice.
By the way, Last Exit is a band that I do listen to occasionally for pleasure, although more often I listen to those same musicians in other ensembles, especially Brotzmann, who I quite enjoy. RIP Herr Brotzmann.
7:29 totally awesome 😎
I love that people are actually entertained by that...
I was a teenage (not werewolf) Throbbing Gristle fan. And now I stand any amount of chaos jazz, metal (easy listening, let's face it), power electronics, Merzbow. But I clicked on a Taylor Swift short & couldn't make it to the end. Ugh, too much sugar in it.
On the topic of difficult music, I recommend these totally not difficult albuma from the group "Itibere Orquestra Familia". They are a Jazz fusion big band that dabbles in all kinds of Brazilian music and some third stream. Its sounds to the ear like really dense, erratic lounge music, so its pretty pleasant to listen to while still always surprising you.
Their first Album is lighter and not as dense as their second one: ua-cam.com/video/lEep6RMxiH0/v-deo.html
Second Album: ua-cam.com/video/HZJZ878wC5w/v-deo.html
Good call !
A disciple of Hermeto, and possibly the closest thing to some kinda Brazilian Zappa.
I crossed the Atlantic to get to Rio de Janeiro just to buy his first 3 albums nowhere to be found in Europe in the noughties. Amongst my most expensive signed Cds!
YEAH!!!!!!!!!!
I like your ponderings.... Ill give you a sub.....for now ... 😉 That ladt exit thingy reminds me of Bill Laswell on a bad Day....
It is Laswell
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer ooh my GOD ..... Thats so goddamn crazy ..... And/or ...its a testamente to , me being a 54 year bass-player , who started out on Piano and Drums , - because of The Police ...and Stewart Copeland , because of Phil of Genesis and Brand X ,- Genesis led med to Bruford , and he' got me to Allan....THEN i swapped to guitar , mainly because of Eruption of "Der Van" but Also because i found Fripp/Belew, and strangely enough John Abercrombie and Metheny, Guru John , and........ Frank Vincent Zappa....which led to Flexable , which led to "Not of This Earth" which got me SO bad , i abandoned guitar , and became e a student of the Upright , and the Electric Basses , Jaco, Stanley Clarke, Jeff Berlin BILL LASWELL 😉 ... Then , i slowly ...drifted into ...S&M......😂...... i played In ...small Tango Big Band's , Jazz Big Band's , BIG Big Band's , small Big Band's , PunkRock Band's , TOTO Cover- , King Crimson Cover- , Bowie Cover- , you G'damn Name it Cover-Bands , and i All this ...time ....bourght , and played , and KEPT ...
S y n t h e s i z e r s Galore !
Apropos Keepers of Knowledge.................................Have you heard about Archaix ???
I luved the first part 🙌 great cinema 🎉
You are easily pleased!!!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer it depends 🤗
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer . .. and don't be so humble about your acting performance 🙌
People should look up Pendrecki" s " Threnody To the People of Hiroshima " . With the context of that title in mind, they MIGHT appreciate it"s power as a statement rather than a typical musical tribute.
I love you, thank you for noticing my comment! We love you, Syrex
Could be a cure for tinnitus 🙉
You simply have to take it from the Shadoks: For a trained ear, there is no sound that cannot be perceived as music - and vice versa. Thus “It is by forging that one becomes a musician."
ua-cam.com/video/KJpA3c8-YSg/v-deo.html (in French, of course)
Last Exit! wow! try Line of Fire!!!
On with P Brötzmann et consortes: They need a competent sound system to be fully appreciated. I happened to have 245 kilograms of speakers (I still have them, wasn't very common in private lodgings then!) in 1986 when this came out, and, as I said, they were made for listening to Line of Fire, one step beyond Pig Freedom...
A quote from the Dutch jazz composer and pianist Misha Mengelberg (he performed with Eric Dolphy as a young man and composed the standard 'Hypochristmuttreefuzz'): ‘Those of us who are still doing this, we prefer to let the music speak for itself. I think I always have felt it like this. That it is the ugliness in the music that is attractive. Ugliness has in it the promise of more ugliness.’ Just remember that last sentence. One to ponder over, like a zen koan.
Zappa Kate or Jaco !
Have you heard Aydin Esen .... I just discovered him .... Holdsworth ???
F L A B B E R G A S T ! 😭🙏
Amazing player...will be talking about him on an up and coming video