In conclusion, hell yeah. It anyway parallels the busiest bus line in Brooklyn. This would be very popular. Also, I would love to see an extension of the Nostrand Ave Line
That was one of the planned routes before WWII. It sadly will not likely happen for a while. The Nostrand Avenue Line should run all the way down to KCC as it was planned.
@@thesubwaynut I agree about KCC, that is an old story. There was actually a train that went to manhattan beach, but it was taken down many years ago. If you look at the Brighton line, say by Neck Road, you notice there is another trestle with stairs next to it. It went straight down E15st to Manhattan beach, then turned East. The line now has row houses that back up to the subway and extend for miles. This was the LIRR Manhattan Beach Branch, it spurred off that future interboro train at Ave I or so. Manhattan beach was just a resort area at one time with hotels.
Yes I am aware of the former LIRR Manhattan Beach Branch. I used to live by the Brighton Line and saw the stairs at Neck Road. Truthfully it would have little to no use today as it parallels the Brighton Line. Extending the Nostrand Avenue Line to KCC like I suggested would be a much better choice.
Building an attractive, modern, and concrete viaduct along Utica Av full of public art and green space would be an amazing proof of concept to the rest of our city that elevateds are still a good option. I would also love to see some of our oldest dingiest elevated lines be rebuilt in this style (although, that's a tall order).
It definitely is a tall order, but I think the first use case of the new elevated design, would be in a possible Astoria Line extension to LaGuardia Airport.
I always wondered why there were no trains from Kings Plaza. Your proposal makes a lot of sense. I hope it comes to pass. Buses from Kings Plaza take way too long.
yeah when i used to live in bushwick/bed stuy; taking the 46 or 47 there was a struggle. i live in gravesend now, taking the b3 to KP is less painful but ocean pkwy to ocean ave is a slog sometimes cuz drivers dont know how to turn and the double parking in the area. any trains in mill basin and flatlands would be awesome.
The narrator of this video makes excellent points. First and foremost the reference to the soil and the water tables underneath Utica Avenue clearly are a viable reason that an underground Subway would not work in this instance. I'm pleased that he did his research and was able to communicate this to answer a very important question as to why any extension would have to be elevated. He is also on point when he states that there would be significant opposition to an elevated line. Elevated lines in New York have been treated as pariah's over the past century as they do provide a blockage of sunlight, noise, depressed property values and other concerns. That's what led to a lot of the demolition of many of the elevated lines that should have remained particularly the second Avenue line. He also makes an excellent point that modern elevated viaducts today can properly provide elevated Transit while addressing the concerns of noise, blight and other concerns of neighbors and businesses. If you go overseas to Europe and Asia they have many viaduct railways that are not as complicated or ugly as the older elevated here. The empty should also look into what Chicago has done where they have elevated or simply outdoor Subway / Metro run on the medians of existing highways and expressways. Last, the length of constructing these extensions are indeed shameful. The narrator's reference to the second Avenue extension is also on point. we should do these extensions in very short time and not have a take decades or if not close to centuries to build these extensions. An extension on Utica Avenue is indeed well in need!
I try my best to get most (if not all) of the information needed to back up my claims in my videos. I read multiple articles, talked with other rail enthusiasts, and researched the areas, and came up with the conclusion that it would need to be an elevated line. Every time I mention elevated’s in my videos, I like to remind everyone that it will not be an easy build, due to the community opposition, however, we need to pass that hurdle to provide that same community with the transit they deserve.
The MTA should hire the narrator 2 their advisory board and or focus groups. Some excellent points he raises that the big shots at the MTA never ever considered.
There are very good reasons why the Second Avenue line took so long to get started. It originally started construction in the 1970s, but the project was canceled when New York City almost went into default. Modern environmental regulations have also ruled out the relatively inexpensive cut-and-cover method of subway construction. The Second Avenue subway had to be built much deeper than the Lexington Avenue IRT subway. And when they went that deep, they found all kinds of things down there that made construction difficult.
A Utica Ave line is always welcome - however, knowing the cost and powers that be... its likely never going to happen in our life time. The only way I see transit improving in the area that has the best chance of succeeding is to have center running LRT or even BRT. Offset bus lanes are always prone to double parking and lax enforcement. With the straightness of the line, they could run bi-articulated buses like the ones in Mexico City or Sao Paulo.
I think it’s a good idea because if you’re in a rush to let’s say the mall The 46 bus Will be slow but the train will get you there faster so it’ll be better . That’s my opinion others might disagree
I support any and all extensions of the NYC Subway. I haven’t heard anything about the Utica Ave Extension in a while and I hope it’s not off the table because it will be extremely useful for Brooklynites. The only thing that i kinda wasn’t feeling was the lack of 3 tracks. We don’t need a Thru Express but if there is an issue, it’s a great help for getting trains to run around an issue if caught on time. Other than that, I support everything you said on here, including making it an elevated line. I hope there will be a Nostrand Ave Line companion piece to this so that we can see how these possible extensions can work well together. Great video!
I did say that there would be some 3 tracked sections on the line in case there are any emergencies or anything, also, it would be constructed similar to the BMT Jamaica Line and the IRT New Lots Line, leaving a space in the center for a future third track.
Everyday, I really appreciate your videos, you're not only making the transit system better, but you're making the city better, you would make a good mayor, or governor, or transit authority, keep up the good work man! Edit: you're good at research, editing, and creating.
Thanks for watching my videos, and I'm glad that you enjoy them and feel like they are making the transit system and the city better. I try my best with these videos.
As a lifelong resident of East Flatbush, I can tell you that an elevated subway down Utica Ave would be welcomed with open arms. Dealing with the B46 and illegal dollar vans kills my commuter heart daily.
Modern, concrete elevated ROWs like in Seattle and Vancouver (held up by single pylons in the middle of the road) would be far less visually and sound polluting than the existing old steel elevated structures throughout the city. I imagine that it would still have to run underground for a bit until it gets to the wide enough part of Utica (around Empire Blvd).
You are 100%, right on that extend the 4 train s to new Lots Avenue let the 4/ 3 train s run further and the 6 trains to co op city mall barto Bronx and bring the 8 3rd Avenue Elevated line line back between Gun hill road and Queens plaza connecting to the 7/N W trains. Let the ,N/W trains go to LaGuardia airport.
A Utica Avenue line extension I think would have a tremendous impact on East Flatbush, Flatlands area. I always hated having to take a bus to get to Kings Plaza. With this extension, people from as far away as the Bronx can have a one seat ride down to the mall. Not to mention people in the area will have a one seat ride up to Manhattan. NYC however is full of proposals that never get done.
I would DEFINITELY like to see a video about a train extension for the Nostrand Avenue line. I always wondered why they never went farther, all the way to Emmons Avenue.
The should run to Sheepshead Bay-Emmons Avenue via Nostrand Avenue local, while the (2) should terminate at Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College. The should run to Gerritsen Beach via Nostrand Avenue local & Gerritsen Avenue local, while the (5) should terminate at Bowling Green. The should run to Coney Island-Neptune Avenue via Nostrand Avenue express, Gravesend Neck Road express, & Cropsey Avenue local, while the (7) should terminate at Prospect Park. The should run to Seagate-Surf Avenue via Nostrand Avenue express, Gerritsen Avenue express, & Seagate local, while the (9) should terminate at Governors Island.
Yeah, that would give riders using the Interborough a new option to get into Manhattan, and those using the (5), a transfer to the IBX, allowing riders a transfer for a ride into Qns.
It's a shame that a second branch of the Interborough Bay ridge line isn't being proposed to go to Howard Beach JFK, which connect to the "A" and Air train. This would be a real game changer for south Brooklyn. There's also my proposal to extend the #3 line to the same terminal. But Interborough is a better plan, but more expensive to implement.
While we're at it, connect the Eastern Pkwy line to the Broadway Junction stop. All 4 numbered services can get their own branch lines. 4 to Bway Junction, 5 to New Lots, 2 to Flatbush, 3 via Utica Ave subway.
I feel like the Eastern Parkway connection to Broadway Junction should happen as well. This would make Broadway Junction a useful connecting between all the BMT, IRT and IND lines
4 to bway junction ? That’s bmt/ ind those trains would be small on those tracks. I’d say 4 to new lots. The 5 to bowling green, the 3 to Utica and 2 to Flatbush.
In my opinion the B46 was real good until they changed the speed limit going down certain sections on Utica Ave like on empire where the 46 and 17 busses have connections. Before they turned the 46 into select service the busses service was good to me. Now they been real slow and the bus lanes going down Utica forward KP don’t really help lol. To me the new buses suck, so bulky and can’t maneuver as good as the GMC buses way more aerodynamic and faster to lol I used to love riding the bus to KP.
I definitely think this would be a very good route, looking at the area it serves and how Kings Plaza would attract a lot of customers. Great video and would love to see a video on the extension of the Nostrand line!
I so like the way you think. Yes. the Utica line should have been built long ago. Yes, elevated for all the reasons you enumerated, and dual tracked because technology has all but eliminated the need for more tracks except for the busiest of lines. As for a Nostrand Avenue extension, most definitely yes. The very configuration of the Flatbush Ave station is a clear indicator that the line was intended to go further.
I'm glad you agree with this suggestion. I talked with some people who have lived in the area, and they agreed on the stop placement & having a double-tracked line. With the number of trains (per hour) that would travel along this new branch line, there just isn't a need for a third track, and/or express service. The line would be mostly straight, so trains would be able to reach high(ish) speeds in between stations (especially with the distance between them). A space would be left in between the two tracks (along with small triple-tracked sections), as provisions for a future center track. As for the Nostrand Avenue Line, clearly, it was meant to be extended further, and with a reconfiguration of the south side of the station, it can easily be extended south via Flatbush/Nostrand Avs.
@@MysticTransit Its not it is not needed, it's that it would require more money to build it. So the Utica Avenue line very much need an express option, because it further from Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn. But due to Will, because the U.S. government finds no problem finding money for wars it wants to be in, it sadly won't happened.
@@qolspony There is no express option needed, and an express option would hurt more than help. Because it’s a branch, there’s not enough trains to run simultaneous express and local service.
I always found it weird that there wasnt train going to kings plaza. Also they should extend the L from canarsie to kings plaza. Makes it easier for anybody near the a c j and z to switch at boardway junction to the plaza
Love the video i go down to Kings plaza and Utica avenue very often and the b46 buses are packed as shit we definitely need a subway line over there and this is perfect
DEFINITELY!!! I never thought of the line being a two track elevated but that does work especially since it really runs by businesses and it is cheaper. Have the portal come out by the intersection of East NY Ave and Utica since Utica becomes wider. If that becomes a reality, I dont really see the need for the Nostrand Ave Line extension
Or Rutland Road since the block to Winthrop Street is longer, avoiding the need to close streets or realign Utica Avenue. This line also does not eliminate the need for a Nostrand Avenue Subway.
Utica Ave has needed an extension forever. Thanks for putting this together. I would like to see a companion piece on a Nostrand Ave. extension as well. Peace.
a portal is difficult on utica. even at that intersection or rutland. i thought a portal like the F on Avenue C/Mcdonald Ave would work but how cool will it be if it was built like the LIRR in east NY heading west
I agree that the #4 as a full-time line should be going to New Lots Ave. at all times because currently turning them around at Utica Ave. Is completely asinine!!!
Definitely should get built with the de-interlining to prevent delays like you presented. I can't believe I never heard of this extension until this video! That part of Brooklyn is transit starved and the buses could use some relief.
I'm born and raised in Brooklyn although I no longer live there. I lived just off Utica ave & Ave. N in 1979-1982 and I actually plotted out a route which closely mimics the the station plan shown in this video. I always wanted to have a Utica ave subway because I either had to take the B46 to Eastern Parkway or take the shorter bus ride, the B41, to Flatbush Junction to get the subway there.. Back in the 70s-80s though, the Marine Park/Mill Basin area had a different demographic from what is has come to be in the following years. It was one of the holdout mostly white neighborhoods in those days, and they guarded their enclave vigorously. Those folks vehemently opposed a Utica ave subway because they feared "the changes" that would come with it. It was open racism. These same folks chased my black friends who came to visit me, and tried to attack them in 1982. It was like Howard Beach at that time. Sickening and disgusting that people could be like that. These are probably Trump followers today- those that are still alive.... Eventually, the neighborhood DID change, Subway or no Subway.... and the racists had to deal or leave. Hah! Where are they now? I laugh at the irony. Anyway... now that the nuisance racists are mostly gone or hopefully dead, there should be little opposition to what should have been done decades ago. Build the Utica Subway! I'll be glad to come back home just to ride it, and taste the sweet victory over the racist stupidity I witnessed 40 years ago.
Yes, absolutely down to Kings Plaza Mall with terminus at and connections to the Nostrand Ave line. With an extension of the 2 & 5 trains to Ave U and Nostrand Ave, maybe down to Ave X. A terminus under Marine Park the will repairs for the 2, 3, 4 & 5 trains.
I lived in Canarsie for most of my life (now in queens) and getting to and from kings plaza was always a pain in the ass. an elevated line would be amazing!
Everything you said in this video is right on the money. We should have BEEN had the Utica Avenue Subway. The congestion on there is sickening. You can do a B46Super Dupper Limited Express. Idc. The deinterlining and the soil argument is spot on. I just wish the city would do this. I saw videos on Tokyo and Beijing subways. New lines would be built and introduced within a YEAR. Maybe two. So idk what’s the holdup. Sorry for the long comment. But the NYC subway could be SO MUCH BETTER so it’s frustrating to see that this system is tapping in at half its potential at best.
not a bad plan, tho it would seem to require making the #5 train a 24/7 line into Brooklyn. that proposed route would definitely well serve what is currently a transit desert.
@@MysticTransit as a person who spent 20 years of my life depending on the Dyre Ave line from 1985-04, i know that whole route would love the extra service. i also know the MTA hasn't considered it worth it, as everyone else still up there still knows...evident whenever i visit family up there. general interest in the area may come with increased access from the new rail line planned from Co-Op City to Harlem (where i live now), but with ridership still beneath preRona levels, i doubt it. that may not effect erecting a Utica Avenue extension, but my decades-long reading of the MTA leads me to suspect they'll just reroute the #4 down that way and keep 2,3, and 5 as is. when it comes to the MTA, never bet against them taking the path of least change and resistance.
Unfortunately, you are most likely correct in these predictions, although, we did have something going in terms of de-interlining (which would help get the (5) to Utica) when Andy Byford was in charge. Unfortunately, we know how that all ended…
@@MysticTransit I do believe if more areas along the Dyre Ave line become gentrified, then perhaps there would be full 24/7 service. I remember the 3 line some years ago had less ridership late nights. It use to run shuttle between 148 st and 135 st. MTA eventually cut the service. There were many complaints but nothing was done until Harlem became gentrified. Even though now when the 3 trains goes to Times Square late nights, it still doesn't have alot of ridership. It seems that gentrification determines which subway or bus lines get more added service.
Utica Avenue extension and Nostrand Ave extension are like siamese twins i.e. it's pointless to do one without the other. But if all the trains are to meet at kings plaza, it would be prudent to increase track capacity on both trunks.
I lived on Utica Avenue in the 60's and it was difficult to get to certain areas by bus. Although there is a station at Fulton Street, and one on Eastern Pkway, they both run east to west. The obvious plan would have to be a branch off the 4 train, and it definitely should be elevated! When you travel south on Utica Avenue there is a steep drop in elevation, which is why the neighborhood is called Crown Heights. It was tough trying to get to Kings Plaza on the bus, so a rapid transit line would be a big help.
Thank you for this! I live right by the Newkirk Avenue station and I've been saying for years to close friends of mine that basically every section of Southern Brooklyn, from Nostrand Avenue eastward, has been done dirty with lack of efficient transportation options! The Utica Avenue Line definitely needs to happen (I feel like that along with the IBX are much more of a priority than the Second Avenue Subway because of how congested the buses in that part of Brooklyn are, literally the B46 is one of the busiest bus routes in the entire city). The Nostrand Line needs an extension as well because that area is even more of a desert from south of Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College. For a Nostrand Ave line extension I would propose continuing it down Nostrand, until it turns on Gerritsen Avenue and then again on Knapp Street terminating at Shore Parkway; making stops at Avenue L, Kings Highway, and Gerritsen Avenue (via Nostrand), Avenue U (via Gerritsen), and Shore Parkway (via Knapp Street). That area has gotten much more foot traffic in recent years, especially since that Regal Cinema theatre by Knapp Street opened up, so it really makes no sense that the only available subway option in Sheeepshead Bay is roughly 20 blocks west of that by the Brighton Line by East 16th Street. Also both extensions I think would REALLY bring relief to the Rogers Avenue Junction as with more trains travelling further out, along with de-interlining the routes, trains won't pass as frequently along the junction (I'm sure there is more to it than that, but it is a start at least lol). But yeah that's just my two sense lol
I would say that the Second Avenue Subway is still a high priority project along with Utica Ave and the IBX given the M15 is one of the busiest bus lines in the city and how loaded the 4,5, and 6 are.
I haven't really researched the best possible routes for a Nostrand Line Extension, so I won't comment on that, but I completely agree, that section of Brooklyn is completely lacking good public transit access. This Utica Line would not only help those living along the corridor, but also others who currently have to deal with the mess that Rogers Junction is.
You absolutely should do the companion video. I'd love to see the furthest terminus that the Nostrand Avenue Line could do with insight from someone who knows more about the general geography of that region. I always thought this extension (which is popular in some fan/theorized ideas as terminating at Voorhies Avenue) could be extended as far as Oriental Blvd - Kingsborough Community College but I don't know what kind of engineering would allow for that if it was possible at all (thinking specifically about how to get the final part over/under the expanse of sea into the eastern-most point of Coney Island). These two projects done side by side would be such a boon to the underserved southeastern Brooklyn region especially with them both having strong potential transfers as they'd intersect with the IBX's corridor.
“Think of getting from Avenue N to herald square when the B isn’t running” that’s the struggle of my life haha - literally live on avenue N (just by Ralph). The area needs transit bad, it’s stifling growth and opportunities
I live right by you and agree with you on that. A Utica Avenue subway, be it served by the 3 train or the 5 train, would make both of our commutes better.
@@MysticTransit Extending the 1 to Yonkers wouldn't be a "high priority" extension (at least for me) but a bunch of Bee-Line routes go from Yonkers to 242 St on the 1, and Yonkers is one of the densest parts of Westchester with a lot of buses. 1 to Yonkers could act kinda like the 7 does in Flushing now, as the "hub" with the buses acting as "spokes".
I’ll definitely consider creating a video on extending the line. I’ll need to do some extensive research to determine whether it is worth it to construct new stations further north of 242.
This sounds great! Try to get these ideas to MTA. There should be a third track for a Diamond or express though. This area is growing and I can see a lot of the bus passengers flooding the trains.
A major terminal will be needed near Kings Plaza Mall. Maybe connecting the Nostrand Ave line with the Utica Ave line. A repair depot under Marine Park for the 2, 3, 4 & 5 line.
Yes, absolutely the 4 train with at least 3 tracks to Kings Plaza Mall. With a major terminus under Marine Park, that would connect the # 2 and 5 from the extension of the Nostrand Ave line at Ave U. This terminus will serve the 2, 3, 4 & 5 lines!!!!!
As an extension of the 3 not the 4, the 4 would be stretched to capacity along Lexington Av and would put it in a situation similar to the F and adding numerous delays if one end or the middle get messed up
4:10, For the noise argument, if the Utica Ave EL is built, it should be built similar to the 7 line which I believe is built with concrete, and doesn’t make much noise. 4:45, I believe that the (5) Is the main factor for the delays, mainly because it has to cross the 7th Ave Local lines which slows down (2)(3) service in Brooklyn. Which seems better, Extending the Nostrand Ave Lines, or having the Utica Ave Elevated Line?
Honestly both of them are needed, though for the short term, extending the Nostrand Avenue Line just to Kings Hwy can provide some breathing room for the lines 18-20 tph frequency and some expanded coverage, while making operations more efficient.
I really like this and i feel like this eould help a lot, i would personally add a couple stations in between each station just to avoid longer trips between stations
In my view, as a rider of the B46 bus route along Utica Avenue, the ideal stop spacing starting from the existing Crown Heights-Utica Avenue station along the Eastern Pkwy Line should be: -Empire Blvd -Winthrop Street -Church Avenue -Avenue D -Avenue H -Flatlands Avenue/Avenue K -Avenue N -Fillmore Avenue -Avenue U/Kings Plaza. These stop locations can help better serve the local area and increase connectivity with local bus services to other nearby neighborhoods.
You Missed a bit of history that few people know about, and that is that the Utica Ave line 4 Tracks is partially built from Broadway Brooklyn south over the A at Fulton street and further down Utica Ave, This was built as the planned extension of the IND before World War Two and was not completed due to the war, and by the time the war ended it was forgotten about. There was supposed to be a tunnel under the East River from the 2nd Ave station to Broadway Brooklyn, which was partially built and then filled in, but Built is the South 4th street station (6 Tracks) and much of the tunneling to the Utica Ave area. (10 car stations) The bright people of the MTA destroyed the built connecting stairways at Fulton Street Station on the A train some years ago. and almost caused Fulton street to fall in on the A-line. There are other sections of the subway that were built at that time and stopped by the War. The F line in Queens is built to Springfield Blvd with stations that could be opened in less than 6 months. The big problem is The MTA people that don't what they are doing and then fill in tunnels that were started pre-war like the 4 Track 2nd Ave subway, mostly built from Chinatown up Christy street to Second Ave with stations and the partially filled in tunnels that can be salvaged with people who know what they are doing.
On the Fulton Utica Ave Station their is an abandon tunnel that I belived was to connected to J train to Broadway but the connection was made at Easr New York Broadway Junction connecting the Canarsie and the Jamica J train. This is great idea hope it will come to pass.
Building an elevated line for Utica Ave would need solid ground just as much as a subway line. Either way, it is needed to support that area of Brooklyn!!
I’m glad you spoke on the impact of Rodgers Junction on this whole plan. Without that mess being detangled, it’s a non starter. That said, a tie-in with the Fulton line would probably be a less costly solution and allows for more flexibility as to where the line can enter Manhattan. Perhaps it can continue up malcolm x bvld and connect to the L at bushwick Avenue, for example.
Fulton Street is impractical due to the line running under-capacity, and branching the L will reduce service on Canarsie east of wherever that line will branch. Most of the demand is below Eastern Pkwy, so I think it’s unnecessary to build Utica north of there until 2nd Avenue is built.
Sending the 3 to Flatbush is basically a J/Z with the 3 being the Z, I support this plan but at this point the 3 is kinda useless for midday and early service except late nights. The 3 is basically gonna be a backup train of the 2
@@TheRailLeaguer I know but 2 stops only? Like it’ll literally be a backup 2 train service. And mainly people if you wanted to go to times sq or wall st people would normally say “take the 2 train” like and sending the 3 to Flatbush would make the 3 have nothing unique or different about it
I remember many many years ago a neighbor told me the Nostrand line wasn't built for that reason - the water table. They didn't want an el either. Also, Parts of Bergen Beach, Mill Basin, could easily be a minimum 1.5 hr commute to midtown, assuming everything is on schedule. Albany->penn is 2:20 :lol:
I feel like having both IRT Nostrand Avenue Line & IRT Utica Avenue Line could benefit an extension to serve those transit deserts and to relief the IRT Eastern Parkway Line and the B44-SBS and B46-SBS respectively. Having the 2 & 3 trains run along the Nostrand Avenue Line then past Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn College to Sheepshead Bay to at least help the B44-SBS, then what you said about the 5 train running local pass Franklin Avenue to Utica Avenue then running along Utica Avenue to Kings Plaza with a bit more stops then probably having some maybe peak-direction express service, nothing would change about 4 line too much that’ll it just serve New Lots Avenue. These IRT Expansion lines would really help those transit deserts and the 2,3,4,5 lines especially that Rogers Junction. The only flaw about theses expansions is the Select Bus Services B44 & B46 bus lines that it will be running directly under the lines if the Nostrand Line is an elevated and just serve the same exact stops as the proposed stations and riders just is gonna depend the proposed expansion lines.
I’m a person that will be impacted by this development, I live 20 minutes from kings plaza. Getting to a subway station takes minimum 30-40 minutes because of long wait times for the B41 as well as long wait times for operators to switch at Avenue P stop. Another bus thats 10 blocks from my house which is the b100, that bus also has local bus wait times too up to 20 mins. With that being said, an elevated line along flatbush and Utica avenues would be essential. The b46 and b41 buses are already over crowded and have long wait times. This proposed subway would be able to transport more people at the same time reducing overcrowding on buses. There’s also plenty of room on Flatbush Avenue to make it an elevated subway and make the platform one huge island station with elevators at kings plaza. The people that would push back from this idea are generally older people who think the subways are dangerous still. I could see homeless people popping up in marine park and in the parks nearby, but that’s a trade off of having an easy connection to the city from mill basin and marine park. Prevent homeless from going into the neighborhood by putting a police booth/ mini station underneath.
Won’t extra bus service correct this? They can truncate B41 at empire blvd to increase service and B100 needs more service regardless it can extend and serve ocean parkway
As much as the extension makes sense, it won't be built until the crown heights and surrounding neighborhoods become gentrified. Just follow the money, the second avenue extension finally gets to phase 2 cuz east harlem is being gentrified right now.
I like the your idea of the Utica Avenue Line. The problem is that the trains would stay underground until Sutter Avenue so the 5 train would have to stay underground on Utica Avenue. Also, what was the program that you used to edit the map called
They should have extended the Utica Avenue line 35 years ago, when Kings Plaza opened in the 70s. In addition, the Canarsie line should have been expanded also.
As a resident in the area, I agree that the Utica Avenue Line should be built, since it would ease congestion on buses and speed service. However once concern I do have is with the station placements. I’m not a huge fan of the stop placements since some could be placed away from major bus connections and major medical facilities. I’d rather see the station placement like this: -Empire Blvd -Winthrop Street -Church Avenue -Avenue D -Avenue H -Flatlands Avenue -Avenue N -Kings Plaza These stops would allow for more convenient bus access. As for making this line an elevated, this is one of just a few lines I have planned in my proposal to be elevated, one of the others being a planned elevated extension of the Astoria Line. However, with this subway extension, the line would have to travel underground quite a bit. This would mean there would be no opportunity for the line to rise up until you get south past Empire Blvd. As far as I’m concerned much of the area is industrial, except for a sector around Church Avenue. We also have the Bay Ridge Branch overhead at about Farragut Road, though the structure isn’t too tall (the structure clearance from the roadway is about 13 feet in height). With the overhead clearances on the western portion of that line already determining how high trains can go, it would be safe to say that an elevated structure between Farragut Road and Avenue I would not be too high. With this in mind, it would probably be best to take advantage of the potential to redevelop the area and have the line travel underground from Eastern Pkwy to about Rutland Road. From there it would rise up as an elevated structure about 14 feet high until just before Farragut Road. On the stretch, there would be ground level fare controls, followed by the side platforms and an overhead mezzanine that goes full length with benches, HVAC functionality for a wide variety of weather types, retail space (another way to bring in new revenue), and security cameras, which would all be covered by an canopy. Essentially, it’s an expansion of that overhead crossover at Junction Blvd on the Flushing 7 line. Once past Farragut Road, the elevated line would soar upward to a height of about 28-30 feet, no taller than the Gun Hill Road elevated station on the White Plains Road Line and would remain that way until Kings Plaza Mall, the final stop. The stations on this stretch would again feature street level fare control, as well as the mezzanine and platforms, though the levels of these would be reversed, with the mezzanine below platforms this time around, similar to other elevated stations. Island platforms would be the new norm here with an overhead canopy covering the platforms from the elements. At the Kings Plaza Mall, the wide Flatbush Avenue could also be modified to provide exits to the median with street level fare control and footbridges to either side of the road. In the longer term, there could also be a direct footbridge access between the interior of the mall, the mezzanine of the station, and the other side of the street, acting as an impromptu crossover for pedestrian traffic, all while maintaining two moving car lanes and a bus lane heading to/from the Belt Pkwy and Marine Pkwy Bridge. With the existing bus ridership using these stations combined with new riders riding the system, combined with additional retail space on the mezzanine, the MTA gets more revenue overall thanks to new fares as well as rent collected from the space being leased out, offsetting any costs and making more efficient use of mezzanine space.
I spoke with another person from the area who agreed with my stop placements. With longer distances between stops, you can speed up service, and the time it takes to get into Manhattan. I don't really have much of an issue with adding more though, as when I was creating the video, I myself, felt like more could be added. I do agree with having the line travel underground until at least Empire Blvd. There seems to be barely any room to create a portal and have the elevated rise up.
@@MysticTransit That’s a fair argument, though the stop placements I had for my proposal are to account for bus stop transfers to better integrate with the buses for continuing trips going crosstown. Another thing to consider: south of Avenue N is a bus maintenance facility holding about 220-225 buses. If anything, this facility should be rebuilt to have a train storage facility on the depot roof to provide more train storage.
Subways transport people more economically than buses even if they are expensive to build. A train with a crew of 2 can carry 800 people. It would take 16 buses to do the same. And since the trains are faster they can get turned around quicker and carry even more passengers.
@@globie1000 You are correct on that though there would still be a need for some city bus routes to continue operating (I could see much of the premium express bus routes being eliminated as well).
The Utica Ave Line needs to be built to Kings Plaza Mall. The Nostrand Ave should also be built to Ave U Brooklyn with a major subway yard under Marine Park. This would connect the Utica the line & the Nostrand Ave line, this yard would alleviate the travel north to the Bronx for the IRT numbered line!!!!
I live along Utica Ave and constantly think about have a line run through here. I would propose a stop between Clarkson and Winthrop Streep. Because of the hospitals. And flatlands for the b82sbs. Depending on how the station is built kings highway would need to extend to ave h because the sheer amount of people that take the 103 and 6 so people aren’t walking far to catch the bus or inter boro. But that’s my opinion otherwise amazing video👌👍🏼
Had it not been for Robert Moses mass planning of highways and parkways and other financial factors in the past, we would've definitely see this line and others standing today and ultimately help relieve some major issues the system have now. Btw, you think the Archer Avenue line should get a short or long extension past Jamaica Center Parsons-Archer?
Quick question, how do you propose getting the number 4 out of tunnel to make a 90 degree elevated turn from Eastern Parkway on to Utica Ave, at its most constricted and congested point, doing so without demolishing that whole intersection, which includes historical, prime commercial and residential real estate properties? Then you’re going to somehow squeeze two tracks of elevated subway at its most constricted point and then have a station at Empire Blvd which is the intersection of 4 roads?
Your plan would make more sense if it where in tunnel…. Water issues and all…which to me, would be and easier headache to deal with than the above ground monstrosity and legal quagmire you’re proposing. You need to go back to the drawing board because that plan won’t go anywhere.
The line will have to be elevated due to Brooklyn terrain as well. The Kings Plaza bound track would have to descend on a 3.3% grade if it were to continue underground, however a smoother profile (which is generally what is preferable) is available if the line portaled out onto an El just south of Carroll Street. The connection to the Eastern Pkwy Line would be underground, not an elevated connection. If the line were underground, the line would suffer from an extremely high cost due to the waterproofing needed. The next phase of the 2nd Avenue Line already slated to cost $6 Billion, and to surpass that mark would be an embarrassment.
The answer to that is you don’t. A lot of the Utica Avenue Subway plans have a tunnel portal further down, past Empire Blvd. Mystic Transit’s plan as well as my own plans are no exceptions. An ideal plan is to have the Utica Avenue Line continue as a tunnel for for the first mile or two, to about Rutland or so. From there, it would be elevated the rest of the way.
its an idea that was suggested back in the 80's. it will have to be a subway all the way to KP. There is not a wide enough space on the Ave to exit from underground to surface.
Have it run as a Subway for the first mile or two, then portal out at Rutland Rd, purchasing a few commercial properties roadside in order to construct it. Then build it elevated down to Kings Plaza.
The entire coverage of these areas, including at the end of the line is National Parkland. I’m not really seeing any justification for a Utica Avenue Line extension going to Jacob Riis Park.
Yes. The Roger Junction needs to be fixed. What would be the reason it was built this way? I know the 2 doesn't interfere with the junction. But it is the #5, the same way it does when it cross over the 2 tracks after 180th Street. So they MTA suggested that the #2 be the express while the #5 becomes the local. The community was against this change. The #5 appears to be the more favorable line in the Bronx at least. It operates on Lexington Avenue. It has a more straight pattern in Manhattan. The #2 (and #3) on the other hand swings west making several stops that local trains like the #1, B/C and #6 makes. And it express service is the raw end of the pack. Anyway, it almost unbelievable that the local #3 share the same track with the express #4. Am I just acknowledging this? I thought the issue was with the #5 crossing the #3 local track to get to Flatbush? Does the Manhattan bound #5 have this same problem?
I believe it was built this way to minimize disruptions on Eastern Pkwy as well as a prototype for the IND Central Park West Line. It was horribly built, though easy to fix.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to build the Utica Ave line because then Kings Plaza will be very convenient to get to since the subway would go right to it and it won't take about an hour no more to get to Kings Plaza from the Flatbush Ave LIRR station by bus since that's about how long it takes to get there by bus?
I know this is really a discussion for your deinterlined video but, personally I prefer having local and express service to both the Nostrand and New Lots branch. I think another idea would be a fly junction built. This would eliminate track conflicts alongside proper scheduling. For the N/B direction have the line from nostrand run alongside the local. They can split to the local and express after they both cross under the express and rise to the same level. For the S/B direction the local line would curve outwards making space for the Nostrand track to start then duck under to curve. Basically something similar to Briarwood junction on the E/F but accommodating for the bi-level design of the New Lots line.
This would be possible, except to construct it, per the MTA’s report in 2009, would take about 7 years and require the actual excavation of Eastern Pkwy, not to even mention the cost. Even the MTA cited lower throughput with such a junction design rather than adding only 2 additional switches to the existing junction. Nostrand Avenue riders prefer 7th Avenue service much more than Lexington Avenue service, which is why the 5 only runs to Brooklyn during weekdays. Even then, the cross-platform transfer at Franklin Avenue isn’t nearly at capacity, so I don’t think one seat rides matter as much here.
@@TMC_BC Nostrand ave doesn’t have the traffic on weekends to support the intensive service of the 2 & 5 on weekends. More passengers use Crown Heights & the New Lots stations. Wouldn’t they have less service than Nostrand who would have two services?
@@MIkeDye200202holla It’s also due to the fact that, unlike the Bronx, 7th Ave demand is higher on Nostrand. New Lots and Crown Heights would actually gain service under the proposal Mystic explained here.
@@MIkeDye200202holla Nobody’s getting reduced service. In fact, the deinterlining will provide an incentive to operate the 5 into Brooklyn on weekends (with the Utica Avenue Line it will).
Not necessarily given that more logical plans for the Utica Avenue Line call for it to be elevated (except for about the northernmost mile south of Eastern Pkwy to south of Empire Blvd).
I’d love to see a Utica Avenue line one day, but not in the form of an extension of the 4 line. I’d like to see it as planned in the IND Second System. If the Utica Avenue Line were to be built as a B Division line, I can see the K and V returning to serve it. The K will run from Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx, replacing the B, and run express along Central Park West and 8th Avenue, towards Canal Street, before splitting off from the A, C, and E where it’ll run along the unbuilt Worth Street Branch until it reaches Brooklyn, meeting up with the V, the latter having split from the F after 2nd Avenue and into Brooklyn, at South 4th Street. The K runs express while the V runs local. The K and V both run along Bushwick Avenue before reaching Myrtle Avenue, after which they will run between Stuyvesant Avenue and Malcom X Boulevard, before reaching Utica Avenue-Fulton Street, where passengers can transfer to the A and C trains. The both of them continue to run along Utica Avenue until they reach Flatbush Avenue-Kings Plaza, where the V terminates, while the K continues on to Floyd Bennet Field, where it’ll terminate.
@@TheRailLeaguer well, if you look at how the Utica Avenue station on the A and C is designed, you can tell it was meant to serve 2 branch lines, not just Fulton Street. To have a station designed like that but serve only one branch line is just rather odd. That, and I don’t want South 4th Street to remain an empty shell forever. If we can’t build a new tunnel under the East River between 2nd Avenue and South 4th Street, I at least hope they can do something with it. Maybe turn it into a night club, or make it part of the in-system transfer between the G at Broadway and the J and M at Union Avenue (new station that replaces both Hewes and Lorimer Street). Perhaps maybe if neither the Houston Street tube or Worth Street Branch can be built, then perhaps new connecting tracks can be built between the F tracks at Jay Street-Metrotech and the G tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets, and build a new tunnel branching off from Bedford-Nostrand Avenues on the G from Lafayette Avenue, traversing underneath either Stuyvesant Avenue or Malcolm X Boulevard, and then under Utica Avenue, towards Floyd Bennet Field. So only the V might be brought back, and run along Utica Avenue which is either a 2 or 3-track line. The 4, I believe, should run along Rockaway Parkway, towards Canarsie Pier. Canarsie is somewhat of a Subway desert, being only served by the L, so extending the 4 from Crown Heights-Utica Avenue to Canarsie Pier may provide Canarsie with 2 Subway lines instead of just 1, and, well, the L doesn’t go that far into Canarsie, not since the portion from Rockaway Parkway to Canarsie Pier was demolished in the 1920’s.
@@VinceHere98 That seems to be a bit excessive compared to just having the IRT on it from Eastern Pkwy, especially since the ridership potential is higher below Eastern Pkwy. If anything, that South 4th Street Shell should be used for a new 4-track trunk line replacing the current Jamaica and Myrtle Avenue elevated lines, provide additional capacity and speed up service between Broadway Junction, Middle Village, and both Midtown and Lower Manhattan. As for the IRT, while Utica will branch from there, the whole corridor can benefit from an extension of the New Lots Line to Flatlands Avenue to better serve Spring Creek. For the L, I also recommend replacing the elevated portion along Van Sinderen Avenue with a new underground alignment paralleling the same area. It would then shift under Rockaway Parkway and operate along that street to the pier. This in turn should allow for additional capacity and coverage of the line to be increased on that end.
It's a mess. Extend Subways in Eastern Queens and build a Kissena/Parsons 4 track line featuring a Bronx to Queens Subway parallel to the Q44 SBS before considering the Utica Avenue line.
There really is no need for a Subway between the Bronx and Queens. It needs a regional rail line (which is thankfully coming, though it needs stops in Queens).
The biggest argument like mentioned is the people living along that line being against this due to property values! It’s tragic what happened to all the EL’s after the 1920’s and now seeing how we have to create so much in public funds to make up for this private greed then!
I do think there needs to be more stops. Instead of kings highway, ave L, kings plaza, i think it should be kings highway, flatlands, ave O, kings plaza. But thats whatever
In conclusion, hell yeah. It anyway parallels the busiest bus line in Brooklyn. This would be very popular. Also, I would love to see an extension of the Nostrand Ave Line
That was one of the planned routes before WWII. It sadly will not likely happen for a while. The Nostrand Avenue Line should run all the way down to KCC as it was planned.
@@thesubwaynut Was never planned to KCC. I heard ave W, Maybe Z, Voorhees Ave Max.
@@alb12345672 Well KCC could definitely use subway service. The B1 and B49 often get crowded with students from there and the adjacent high school.
@@thesubwaynut I agree about KCC, that is an old story. There was actually a train that went to manhattan beach, but it was taken down many years ago. If you look at the Brighton line, say by Neck Road, you notice there is another trestle with stairs next to it. It went straight down E15st to Manhattan beach, then turned East.
The line now has row houses that back up to the subway and extend for miles. This was the LIRR Manhattan Beach Branch, it spurred off that future interboro train at Ave I or so. Manhattan beach was just a resort area at one time with hotels.
Yes I am aware of the former LIRR Manhattan Beach Branch. I used to live by the Brighton Line and saw the stairs at Neck Road. Truthfully it would have little to no use today as it parallels the Brighton Line. Extending the Nostrand Avenue Line to KCC like I suggested would be a much better choice.
Building an attractive, modern, and concrete viaduct along Utica Av full of public art and green space would be an amazing proof of concept to the rest of our city that elevateds are still a good option. I would also love to see some of our oldest dingiest elevated lines be rebuilt in this style (although, that's a tall order).
It definitely is a tall order, but I think the first use case of the new elevated design, would be in a possible Astoria Line extension to LaGuardia Airport.
Yes. Like what the REM B is building in Montreal.
Exactly my perception.
@@MysticTransit I don't think is gonna happen the news just lie many times.
@@MysticTransit we still have B46 SBS at least to provide as an alternative to transfer between B46 SBS and Crown heights Utica Avenue station.
I always wondered why there were no trains from Kings Plaza. Your proposal makes a lot of sense. I hope it comes to pass. Buses from Kings Plaza take way too long.
Who are you telling, as a young resident in Crown Heights and Starrett City those bus rides were not fun
yeah when i used to live in bushwick/bed stuy; taking the 46 or 47 there was a struggle.
i live in gravesend now, taking the b3 to KP is less painful but ocean pkwy to ocean ave is a slog sometimes cuz drivers dont know how to turn and the double parking in the area.
any trains in mill basin and flatlands would be awesome.
The B46 is a pain.
@@trijetz3562, the problems with buses is why I think that (for streets like Utica that are wide enough) light rail might be better.
Buses are too long and causes traffic congestion.
The narrator of this video makes excellent points. First and foremost the reference to the soil and the water tables underneath Utica Avenue clearly are a viable reason that an underground Subway would not work in this instance. I'm pleased that he did his research and was able to communicate this to answer a very important question as to why any extension would have to be elevated. He is also on point when he states that there would be significant opposition to an elevated line. Elevated lines in New York have been treated as pariah's over the past century as they do provide a blockage of sunlight, noise, depressed property values and other concerns. That's what led to a lot of the demolition of many of the elevated lines that should have remained particularly the second Avenue line. He also makes an excellent point that modern elevated viaducts today can properly provide elevated Transit while addressing the concerns of noise, blight and other concerns of neighbors and businesses. If you go overseas to Europe and Asia they have many viaduct railways that are not as complicated or ugly as the older elevated here. The empty should also look into what Chicago has done where they have elevated or simply outdoor Subway / Metro run on the medians of existing highways and expressways. Last, the length of constructing these extensions are indeed shameful. The narrator's reference to the second Avenue extension is also on point. we should do these extensions in very short time and not have a take decades or if not close to centuries to build these extensions. An extension on Utica Avenue is indeed well in need!
I try my best to get most (if not all) of the information needed to back up my claims in my videos. I read multiple articles, talked with other rail enthusiasts, and researched the areas, and came up with the conclusion that it would need to be an elevated line.
Every time I mention elevated’s in my videos, I like to remind everyone that it will not be an easy build, due to the community opposition, however, we need to pass that hurdle to provide that same community with the transit they deserve.
The MTA should hire the narrator 2 their advisory board and or focus groups. Some excellent points he raises that the big shots at the MTA never ever considered.
There are very good reasons why the Second Avenue line took so long to get started. It originally started construction in the 1970s, but the project was canceled when New York City almost went into default. Modern environmental regulations have also ruled out the relatively inexpensive cut-and-cover method of subway construction. The Second Avenue subway had to be built much deeper than the Lexington Avenue IRT subway. And when they went that deep, they found all kinds of things down there that made construction difficult.
A Utica Ave line is always welcome - however, knowing the cost and powers that be... its likely never going to happen in our life time. The only way I see transit improving in the area that has the best chance of succeeding is to have center running LRT or even BRT. Offset bus lanes are always prone to double parking and lax enforcement. With the straightness of the line, they could run bi-articulated buses like the ones in Mexico City or Sao Paulo.
I think it’s a good idea because if you’re in a rush to let’s say the mall The 46 bus Will be slow but the train will get you there faster so it’ll be better . That’s my opinion others might disagree
I support any and all extensions of the NYC Subway. I haven’t heard anything about the Utica Ave Extension in a while and I hope it’s not off the table because it will be extremely useful for Brooklynites. The only thing that i kinda wasn’t feeling was the lack of 3 tracks. We don’t need a Thru Express but if there is an issue, it’s a great help for getting trains to run around an issue if caught on time. Other than that, I support everything you said on here, including making it an elevated line. I hope there will be a Nostrand Ave Line companion piece to this so that we can see how these possible extensions can work well together. Great video!
I did say that there would be some 3 tracked sections on the line in case there are any emergencies or anything, also, it would be constructed similar to the BMT Jamaica Line and the IRT New Lots Line, leaving a space in the center for a future third track.
@@MysticTransit remembering those lines, I can see that. That can work.
Everyday, I really appreciate your videos, you're not only making the transit system better, but you're making the city better, you would make a good mayor, or governor, or transit authority, keep up the good work man!
Edit: you're good at research, editing, and creating.
Thanks for watching my videos, and I'm glad that you enjoy them and feel like they are making the transit system and the city better. I try my best with these videos.
@@MysticTransit Yes, thank you.
As a lifelong resident of East Flatbush, I can tell you that an elevated subway down Utica Ave would be welcomed with open arms. Dealing with the B46 and illegal dollar vans kills my commuter heart daily.
Modern, concrete elevated ROWs like in Seattle and Vancouver (held up by single pylons in the middle of the road) would be far less visually and sound polluting than the existing old steel elevated structures throughout the city. I imagine that it would still have to run underground for a bit until it gets to the wide enough part of Utica (around Empire Blvd).
You are 100%, right on that extend the 4 train s to new Lots Avenue let the 4/ 3 train s run further and the 6 trains to co op city mall barto Bronx and bring the 8 3rd Avenue Elevated line line back between Gun hill road and Queens plaza connecting to the 7/N W trains. Let the ,N/W trains go to LaGuardia airport.
I'm keeping it 100% real
A Utica Avenue line extension I think would have a tremendous impact on East Flatbush, Flatlands area. I always hated having to take a bus to get to Kings Plaza. With this extension, people from as far away as the Bronx can have a one seat ride down to the mall. Not to mention people in the area will have a one seat ride up to Manhattan.
NYC however is full of proposals that never get done.
I would DEFINITELY like to see a video about a train extension for the Nostrand Avenue line. I always wondered why they never went farther, all the way to Emmons Avenue.
no they can’t to emmons Avenue it’s right next to the sea maybe they can make it go down to voorhies avenue
The should run to Sheepshead Bay-Emmons Avenue via Nostrand Avenue local, while the (2) should terminate at Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College. The should run to Gerritsen Beach via Nostrand Avenue local & Gerritsen Avenue local, while the (5) should terminate at Bowling Green. The should run to Coney Island-Neptune Avenue via Nostrand Avenue express, Gravesend Neck Road express, & Cropsey Avenue local, while the (7) should terminate at Prospect Park. The should run to Seagate-Surf Avenue via Nostrand Avenue express, Gerritsen Avenue express, & Seagate local, while the (9) should terminate at Governors Island.
If we did your proposal it would probably meet the Interboro express at it’s Kings Highway stop. That would be nice
Yeah, that would give riders using the Interborough a new option to get into Manhattan, and those using the (5), a transfer to the IBX, allowing riders a transfer for a ride into Qns.
It's a shame that a second branch of the Interborough Bay ridge line isn't being proposed to go to Howard Beach JFK, which connect to the "A" and Air train. This would be a real game changer for south Brooklyn. There's also my proposal to extend the #3 line to the same terminal. But Interborough is a better plan, but more expensive to implement.
@@qolspony Yeah, You should probably bring that up in a video about the interboro express
While we're at it, connect the Eastern Pkwy line to the Broadway Junction stop. All 4 numbered services can get their own branch lines. 4 to Bway Junction, 5 to New Lots, 2 to Flatbush, 3 via Utica Ave subway.
I feel like the Eastern Parkway connection to Broadway Junction should happen as well. This would make Broadway Junction a useful connecting between all the BMT, IRT and IND lines
4 to bway junction ? That’s bmt/ ind those trains would be small on those tracks. I’d say 4 to new lots. The 5 to bowling green, the 3 to Utica and 2 to Flatbush.
@@BXpitbull24 Wouldn’t that cause delays on the 4 and 5 lines
In my opinion the B46 was real good until they changed the speed limit going down certain sections on Utica Ave like on empire where the 46 and 17 busses have connections. Before they turned the 46 into select service the busses service was good to me. Now they been real slow and the bus lanes going down Utica forward KP don’t really help lol. To me the new buses suck, so bulky and can’t maneuver as good as the GMC buses way more aerodynamic and faster to lol I used to love riding the bus to KP.
I definitely think this would be a very good route, looking at the area it serves and how Kings Plaza would attract a lot of customers.
Great video and would love to see a video on the extension of the Nostrand line!
I so like the way you think. Yes. the Utica line should have been built long ago. Yes, elevated for all the reasons you enumerated, and dual tracked because technology has all but eliminated the need for more tracks except for the busiest of lines. As for a Nostrand Avenue extension, most definitely yes. The very configuration of the Flatbush Ave station is a clear indicator that the line was intended to go further.
I'm glad you agree with this suggestion. I talked with some people who have lived in the area, and they agreed on the stop placement & having a double-tracked line. With the number of trains (per hour) that would travel along this new branch line, there just isn't a need for a third track, and/or express service. The line would be mostly straight, so trains would be able to reach high(ish) speeds in between stations (especially with the distance between them).
A space would be left in between the two tracks (along with small triple-tracked sections), as provisions for a future center track.
As for the Nostrand Avenue Line, clearly, it was meant to be extended further, and with a reconfiguration of the south side of the station, it can easily be extended south via Flatbush/Nostrand Avs.
@@MysticTransit Its not it is not needed, it's that it would require more money to build it. So the Utica Avenue line very much need an express option, because it further from Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn. But due to Will, because the U.S. government finds no problem finding money for wars it wants to be in, it sadly won't happened.
@@qolspony There is no express option needed, and an express option would hurt more than help. Because it’s a branch, there’s not enough trains to run simultaneous express and local service.
having a subway line that goes to King's Plaza would be fantastic... & a long time comming.
I always found it weird that there wasnt train going to kings plaza. Also they should extend the L from canarsie to kings plaza. Makes it easier for anybody near the a c j and z to switch at boardway junction to the plaza
Love the video i go down to Kings plaza and Utica avenue very often and the b46 buses are packed as shit we definitely need a subway line over there and this is perfect
DEFINITELY!!! I never thought of the line being a two track elevated but that does work especially since it really runs by businesses and it is cheaper. Have the portal come out by the intersection of East NY Ave and Utica since Utica becomes wider. If that becomes a reality, I dont really see the need for the Nostrand Ave Line extension
Or Rutland Road since the block to Winthrop Street is longer, avoiding the need to close streets or realign Utica Avenue. This line also does not eliminate the need for a Nostrand Avenue Subway.
Utica Ave has needed an extension forever. Thanks for putting this together.
I would like to see a companion piece on a Nostrand Ave. extension as well.
Peace.
a portal is difficult on utica. even at that intersection or rutland. i thought a portal like the F on Avenue C/Mcdonald Ave would work but how cool will it be if it was built like the LIRR in east NY heading west
@@Thelastairbendy The whole street is light commercial and industrial, particularly on the west side.
@@Thelastairbendy That's what I was thinking.
I agree that the #4 as a full-time line should be going to New Lots Ave. at all times because currently turning them around at Utica Ave. Is completely asinine!!!
Definitely should get built with the de-interlining to prevent delays like you presented. I can't believe I never heard of this extension until this video! That part of Brooklyn is transit starved and the buses could use some relief.
I'm born and raised in Brooklyn although I no longer live there. I lived just off Utica ave & Ave. N in 1979-1982 and I actually plotted out a route which closely mimics the the station plan shown in this video. I always wanted to have a Utica ave subway because I either had to take the B46 to Eastern Parkway or take the shorter bus ride, the B41, to Flatbush Junction to get the subway there.. Back in the 70s-80s though, the Marine Park/Mill Basin area had a different demographic from what is has come to be in the following years. It was one of the holdout mostly white neighborhoods in those days, and they guarded their enclave vigorously. Those folks vehemently opposed a Utica ave subway because they feared "the changes" that would come with it. It was open racism. These same folks chased my black friends who came to visit me, and tried to attack them in 1982. It was like Howard Beach at that time. Sickening and disgusting that people could be like that. These are probably Trump followers today- those that are still alive.... Eventually, the neighborhood DID change, Subway or no Subway.... and the racists had to deal or leave. Hah! Where are they now? I laugh at the irony. Anyway... now that the nuisance racists are mostly gone or hopefully dead, there should be little opposition to what should have been done decades ago. Build the Utica Subway! I'll be glad to come back home just to ride it, and taste the sweet victory over the racist stupidity I witnessed 40 years ago.
Yes, absolutely down to Kings Plaza Mall with terminus at and connections to the Nostrand Ave line. With an extension of the 2 & 5 trains to Ave U and Nostrand Ave, maybe down to Ave X. A terminus under Marine Park the will repairs for the 2, 3, 4 & 5 trains.
I lived in Canarsie for most of my life (now in queens) and getting to and from kings plaza was always a pain in the ass. an elevated line would be amazing!
Everything you said in this video is right on the money. We should have BEEN had the Utica Avenue Subway. The congestion on there is sickening. You can do a B46Super Dupper Limited Express. Idc.
The deinterlining and the soil argument is spot on. I just wish the city would do this.
I saw videos on Tokyo and Beijing subways. New lines would be built and introduced within a YEAR. Maybe two. So idk what’s the holdup.
Sorry for the long comment. But the NYC subway could be SO MUCH BETTER so it’s frustrating to see that this system is tapping in at half its potential at best.
not a bad plan, tho it would seem to require making the #5 train a 24/7 line into Brooklyn. that proposed route would definitely well serve what is currently a transit desert.
tbh, I don't see the issue with making it a 24/7 Line. Actually, it's a good thing, you'd be able to give Lex full time Exp service.
If this ever happens, riders north of E 180 st on the Dyre Ave line would be happy to get 24/7 full service especially late nights.
@@MysticTransit as a person who spent 20 years of my life depending on the Dyre Ave line from 1985-04, i know that whole route would love the extra service. i also know the MTA hasn't considered it worth it, as everyone else still up there still knows...evident whenever i visit family up there. general interest in the area may come with increased access from the new rail line planned from Co-Op City to Harlem (where i live now), but with ridership still beneath preRona levels, i doubt it.
that may not effect erecting a Utica Avenue extension, but my decades-long reading of the MTA leads me to suspect they'll just reroute the #4 down that way and keep 2,3, and 5 as is.
when it comes to the MTA, never bet against them taking the path of least change and resistance.
Unfortunately, you are most likely correct in these predictions, although, we did have something going in terms of de-interlining (which would help get the (5) to Utica) when Andy Byford was in charge.
Unfortunately, we know how that all ended…
@@MysticTransit I do believe if more areas along the Dyre Ave line become gentrified, then perhaps there would be full 24/7 service. I remember the 3 line some years ago had less ridership late nights. It use to run shuttle between 148 st and 135 st. MTA eventually cut the service. There were many complaints but nothing was done until Harlem became gentrified. Even though now when the 3 trains goes to Times Square late nights, it still doesn't have alot of ridership. It seems that gentrification determines which subway or bus lines get more added service.
I’ve been talking about this from a little boy I grew up on church and Utica and it is well needed I think the plan that you have I perfect to 💯💯💯
Yes.
BTW, You should do a Defunct Lines or Unbuilt Lines/Extensions Series.
Utica Avenue extension and Nostrand Ave extension are like siamese twins i.e. it's pointless to do one without the other. But if all the trains are to meet at kings plaza, it would be prudent to increase track capacity on both trunks.
I lived on Utica Avenue in the 60's and it was difficult to get to certain areas by bus. Although there is a station at Fulton Street, and one on Eastern Pkway, they both run east to west. The obvious plan would have to be a branch off the 4 train, and it definitely should be elevated! When you travel south on Utica Avenue there is a steep drop in elevation, which is why the neighborhood is called Crown Heights. It was tough trying to get to Kings Plaza on the bus, so a rapid transit line would be a big help.
Thank you for this! I live right by the Newkirk Avenue station and I've been saying for years to close friends of mine that basically every section of Southern Brooklyn, from Nostrand Avenue eastward, has been done dirty with lack of efficient transportation options! The Utica Avenue Line definitely needs to happen (I feel like that along with the IBX are much more of a priority than the Second Avenue Subway because of how congested the buses in that part of Brooklyn are, literally the B46 is one of the busiest bus routes in the entire city).
The Nostrand Line needs an extension as well because that area is even more of a desert from south of Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College. For a Nostrand Ave line extension I would propose continuing it down Nostrand, until it turns on Gerritsen Avenue and then again on Knapp Street terminating at Shore Parkway; making stops at Avenue L, Kings Highway, and Gerritsen Avenue (via Nostrand), Avenue U (via Gerritsen), and Shore Parkway (via Knapp Street). That area has gotten much more foot traffic in recent years, especially since that Regal Cinema theatre by Knapp Street opened up, so it really makes no sense that the only available subway option in Sheeepshead Bay is roughly 20 blocks west of that by the Brighton Line by East 16th Street.
Also both extensions I think would REALLY bring relief to the Rogers Avenue Junction as with more trains travelling further out, along with de-interlining the routes, trains won't pass as frequently along the junction (I'm sure there is more to it than that, but it is a start at least lol).
But yeah that's just my two sense lol
I echoed the same sentiments.
I would say that the Second Avenue Subway is still a high priority project along with Utica Ave and the IBX given the M15 is one of the busiest bus lines in the city and how loaded the 4,5, and 6 are.
I haven't really researched the best possible routes for a Nostrand Line Extension, so I won't comment on that, but I completely agree, that section of Brooklyn is completely lacking good public transit access. This Utica Line would not only help those living along the corridor, but also others who currently have to deal with the mess that Rogers Junction is.
You absolutely should do the companion video. I'd love to see the furthest terminus that the Nostrand Avenue Line could do with insight from someone who knows more about the general geography of that region. I always thought this extension (which is popular in some fan/theorized ideas as terminating at Voorhies Avenue) could be extended as far as Oriental Blvd - Kingsborough Community College but I don't know what kind of engineering would allow for that if it was possible at all (thinking specifically about how to get the final part over/under the expanse of sea into the eastern-most point of Coney Island). These two projects done side by side would be such a boon to the underserved southeastern Brooklyn region especially with them both having strong potential transfers as they'd intersect with the IBX's corridor.
I agree with every single word in this video.
Maybe they can build elevated ‘tunnels’, ie viaducts fully covered by sound barriers. Shenzhen Metro used it to deal with Nimbys
“Think of getting from Avenue N to herald square when the B isn’t running” that’s the struggle of my life haha - literally live on avenue N (just by Ralph). The area needs transit bad, it’s stifling growth and opportunities
I live right by you and agree with you on that. A Utica Avenue subway, be it served by the 3 train or the 5 train, would make both of our commutes better.
Yes and it's long overdue. Hell, extend it into the Rockaways!
You should talk about about a potential expansion for the 1 line to Yonkers but great vid
I would love to talk about extending the (1) Line, but is the demand there for an extension into Yonkers?
@@MysticTransit Extending the 1 to Yonkers wouldn't be a "high priority" extension (at least for me) but a bunch of Bee-Line routes go from Yonkers to 242 St on the 1, and Yonkers is one of the densest parts of Westchester with a lot of buses. 1 to Yonkers could act kinda like the 7 does in Flushing now, as the "hub" with the buses acting as "spokes".
@@bellairefondren7389 It’s also served by 2 express buses Bxm3 and Bxm4c
I’ll definitely consider creating a video on extending the line. I’ll need to do some extensive research to determine whether it is worth it to construct new stations further north of 242.
This sounds great! Try to get these ideas to MTA.
There should be a third track for a Diamond or express though. This area is growing and I can see a lot of the bus passengers flooding the trains.
There would be no way to implement express service. I explained this in the video.
A major terminal will be needed near Kings Plaza Mall. Maybe connecting the Nostrand Ave line with the Utica Ave line. A repair depot under Marine Park for the 2, 3, 4 & 5 line.
Utica! Utica! Utica! If you're from the Bk you know.😏
I would like to see a mock up version of the "Ele".
Yes, absolutely the 4 train with at least 3 tracks to Kings Plaza Mall. With a major terminus under Marine Park, that would connect the # 2 and 5 from the extension of the Nostrand Ave line at Ave U. This terminus will serve the 2, 3, 4 & 5 lines!!!!!
As an extension of the 3 not the 4, the 4 would be stretched to capacity along Lexington Av and would put it in a situation similar to the F and adding numerous delays if one end or the middle get messed up
Rebuilding Rogers Junction will give Lexington Avenue more capacity, making the 4 or 5 worthwhile to extend.
4:10, For the noise argument, if the Utica Ave EL is built, it should be built similar to the 7 line which I believe is built with concrete, and doesn’t make much noise.
4:45, I believe that the (5) Is the main factor for the delays, mainly because it has to cross the 7th Ave Local lines which slows down (2)(3) service in Brooklyn.
Which seems better, Extending the Nostrand Ave Lines, or having the Utica Ave Elevated Line?
Honestly both of them are needed, though for the short term, extending the Nostrand Avenue Line just to Kings Hwy can provide some breathing room for the lines 18-20 tph frequency and some expanded coverage, while making operations more efficient.
Building Utica Ave Elevated line would be better because more people would use it then extending Nostrand Ave lines
I really like this and i feel like this eould help a lot, i would personally add a couple stations in between each station just to avoid longer trips between stations
In my view, as a rider of the B46 bus route along Utica Avenue, the ideal stop spacing starting from the existing Crown Heights-Utica Avenue station along the Eastern Pkwy Line should be:
-Empire Blvd
-Winthrop Street
-Church Avenue
-Avenue D
-Avenue H
-Flatlands Avenue/Avenue K
-Avenue N
-Fillmore Avenue
-Avenue U/Kings Plaza.
These stop locations can help better serve the local area and increase connectivity with local bus services to other nearby neighborhoods.
It's a great idea. We definitely need more train lines around the city especially places like Staten Island.
I fully agree with this
You Missed a bit of history that few people know about, and that is that the Utica Ave line 4 Tracks is partially built from Broadway Brooklyn south over the A at Fulton street and further down Utica Ave, This was built as the planned extension of the IND before World War Two and was not completed due to the war, and by the time the war ended it was forgotten about. There was supposed to be a tunnel under the East River from the 2nd Ave station to Broadway Brooklyn, which was partially built and then filled in, but Built is the South 4th street station (6 Tracks) and much of the tunneling to the Utica Ave area. (10 car stations) The bright people of the MTA destroyed the built connecting stairways at Fulton Street Station on the A train some years ago. and almost caused Fulton street to fall in on the A-line. There are other sections of the subway that were built at that time and stopped by the War. The F line in Queens is built to Springfield Blvd with stations that could be opened in less than 6 months. The big problem is The MTA people that don't what they are doing and then fill in tunnels that were started pre-war like the 4 Track 2nd Ave subway, mostly built from Chinatown up Christy street to Second Ave with stations and the partially filled in tunnels that can be salvaged with people who know what they are doing.
On the Fulton Utica Ave Station their is an abandon tunnel that I belived was to connected to J train to Broadway but the connection was made at Easr New York Broadway Junction connecting the Canarsie and the Jamica J train.
This is great idea hope it will come to pass.
Building an elevated line for Utica Ave would need solid ground just as much as a subway line. Either way, it is needed to support that area of Brooklyn!!
Yes would love to see a companion video with Nostrand Ave.
I think it should be extended down to the rockaways as well. But instead it should be the 3 line and then the 4 train to new lots
I’m glad you spoke on the impact of Rodgers Junction on this whole plan. Without that mess being detangled, it’s a non starter.
That said, a tie-in with the Fulton line would probably be a less costly solution and allows for more flexibility as to where the line can enter Manhattan. Perhaps it can continue up malcolm x bvld and connect to the L at bushwick Avenue, for example.
Fulton Street is impractical due to the line running under-capacity, and branching the L will reduce service on Canarsie east of wherever that line will branch. Most of the demand is below Eastern Pkwy, so I think it’s unnecessary to build Utica north of there until 2nd Avenue is built.
@@TMC_BC fair enough.
I didn't even start the video and the answer is YES.
Sending the 3 to Flatbush is basically a J/Z with the 3 being the Z, I support this plan but at this point the 3 is kinda useless for midday and early service except late nights. The 3 is basically gonna be a backup train of the 2
Not really. The 3 would still travel to 148th Street on the Lenox Line, allowing service on that line to continue operating during off-peak hours.
@@TheRailLeaguer I know but 2 stops only? Like it’ll literally be a backup 2 train service. And mainly people if you wanted to go to times sq or wall st people would normally say “take the 2 train” like and sending the 3 to Flatbush would make the 3 have nothing unique or different about it
@@dottybambni But that doesn’t mean that the 3 will be cut during off peak hours. And plus those two stops will make the 3 train unique.
Yeah, with this plan, it would be a redundant service, but still useful, as it would add more service to 7th Avenue.
I remember many many years ago a neighbor told me the Nostrand line wasn't built for that reason - the water table. They didn't want an el either. Also, Parts of Bergen Beach, Mill Basin, could easily be a minimum 1.5 hr commute to midtown, assuming everything is on schedule. Albany->penn is 2:20 :lol:
I feel like having both IRT Nostrand Avenue Line & IRT Utica Avenue Line could benefit an extension to serve those transit deserts and to relief the IRT Eastern Parkway Line and the B44-SBS and B46-SBS respectively. Having the 2 & 3 trains run along the Nostrand Avenue Line then past Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn College to Sheepshead Bay to at least help the B44-SBS, then what you said about the 5 train running local pass Franklin Avenue to Utica Avenue then running along Utica Avenue to Kings Plaza with a bit more stops then probably having some maybe peak-direction express service, nothing would change about 4 line too much that’ll it just serve New Lots Avenue. These IRT Expansion lines would really help those transit deserts and the 2,3,4,5 lines especially that Rogers Junction. The only flaw about theses expansions is the Select Bus Services B44 & B46 bus lines that it will be running directly under the lines if the Nostrand Line is an elevated and just serve the same exact stops as the proposed stations and riders just is gonna depend the proposed expansion lines.
I’m a person that will be impacted by this development, I live 20 minutes from kings plaza. Getting to a subway station takes minimum 30-40 minutes because of long wait times for the B41 as well as long wait times for operators to switch at Avenue P stop. Another bus thats 10 blocks from my house which is the b100, that bus also has local bus wait times too up to 20 mins. With that being said, an elevated line along flatbush and Utica avenues would be essential. The b46 and b41 buses are already over crowded and have long wait times. This proposed subway would be able to transport more people at the same time reducing overcrowding on buses. There’s also plenty of room on Flatbush Avenue to make it an elevated subway and make the platform one huge island station with elevators at kings plaza. The people that would push back from this idea are generally older people who think the subways are dangerous still. I could see homeless people popping up in marine park and in the parks nearby, but that’s a trade off of having an easy connection to the city from mill basin and marine park. Prevent homeless from going into the neighborhood by putting a police booth/ mini station underneath.
Won’t extra bus service correct this? They can truncate B41 at empire blvd to increase service and B100 needs more service regardless it can extend and serve ocean parkway
As much as the extension makes sense, it won't be built until the crown heights and surrounding neighborhoods become gentrified. Just follow the money, the second avenue extension finally gets to phase 2 cuz east harlem is being gentrified right now.
I like the your idea of the Utica Avenue Line. The problem is that the trains would stay underground until Sutter Avenue so the 5 train would have to stay underground on Utica Avenue. Also, what was the program that you used to edit the map called
Was just thinking about that today. Utica Avenue subway.
Thanks for this video. I was begging for this one lol
Nostrand Ave extension pls
I love the idea and yes please make the companion video😀😀😀
Glad you liked the video, and I will be adding the Nostrand Avenue Line video to my list.
@@MysticTransit Yeah!😃
Can you do a video on a New Lots Avenue line extension to Spring Field-Gateway Mall?
honestly this an even better idea knowing that this could increase commercial flow and revenue knowing there’s an easy 1 train connection to the mall
Yes, it would make traveling easier, and cut down on traffic.
If it helps to save time, sure. But will the MTA be willing to spend the money?
They should have extended the Utica Avenue line 35 years ago, when Kings Plaza opened in the 70s. In addition, the Canarsie line should have been expanded also.
As a resident in the area, I agree that the Utica Avenue Line should be built, since it would ease congestion on buses and speed service. However once concern I do have is with the station placements. I’m not a huge fan of the stop placements since some could be placed away from major bus connections and major medical facilities. I’d rather see the station placement like this:
-Empire Blvd
-Winthrop Street
-Church Avenue
-Avenue D
-Avenue H
-Flatlands Avenue
-Avenue N
-Kings Plaza
These stops would allow for more convenient bus access.
As for making this line an elevated, this is one of just a few lines I have planned in my proposal to be elevated, one of the others being a planned elevated extension of the Astoria Line. However, with this subway extension, the line would have to travel underground quite a bit. This would mean there would be no opportunity for the line to rise up until you get south past Empire Blvd. As far as I’m concerned much of the area is industrial, except for a sector around Church Avenue. We also have the Bay Ridge Branch overhead at about Farragut Road, though the structure isn’t too tall (the structure clearance from the roadway is about 13 feet in height). With the overhead clearances on the western portion of that line already determining how high trains can go, it would be safe to say that an elevated structure between Farragut Road and Avenue I would not be too high. With this in mind, it would probably be best to take advantage of the potential to redevelop the area and have the line travel underground from Eastern Pkwy to about Rutland Road. From there it would rise up as an elevated structure about 14 feet high until just before Farragut Road. On the stretch, there would be ground level fare controls, followed by the side platforms and an overhead mezzanine that goes full length with benches, HVAC functionality for a wide variety of weather types, retail space (another way to bring in new revenue), and security cameras, which would all be covered by an canopy. Essentially, it’s an expansion of that overhead crossover at Junction Blvd on the Flushing 7 line. Once past Farragut Road, the elevated line would soar upward to a height of about 28-30 feet, no taller than the Gun Hill Road elevated station on the White Plains Road Line and would remain that way until Kings Plaza Mall, the final stop. The stations on this stretch would again feature street level fare control, as well as the mezzanine and platforms, though the levels of these would be reversed, with the mezzanine below platforms this time around, similar to other elevated stations. Island platforms would be the new norm here with an overhead canopy covering the platforms from the elements. At the Kings Plaza Mall, the wide Flatbush Avenue could also be modified to provide exits to the median with street level fare control and footbridges to either side of the road. In the longer term, there could also be a direct footbridge access between the interior of the mall, the mezzanine of the station, and the other side of the street, acting as an impromptu crossover for pedestrian traffic, all while maintaining two moving car lanes and a bus lane heading to/from the Belt Pkwy and Marine Pkwy Bridge.
With the existing bus ridership using these stations combined with new riders riding the system, combined with additional retail space on the mezzanine, the MTA gets more revenue overall thanks to new fares as well as rent collected from the space being leased out, offsetting any costs and making more efficient use of mezzanine space.
I spoke with another person from the area who agreed with my stop placements. With longer distances between stops, you can speed up service, and the time it takes to get into Manhattan. I don't really have much of an issue with adding more though, as when I was creating the video, I myself, felt like more could be added.
I do agree with having the line travel underground until at least Empire Blvd. There seems to be barely any room to create a portal and have the elevated rise up.
@@MysticTransit That’s a fair argument, though the stop placements I had for my proposal are to account for bus stop transfers to better integrate with the buses for continuing trips going crosstown.
Another thing to consider: south of Avenue N is a bus maintenance facility holding about 220-225 buses. If anything, this facility should be rebuilt to have a train storage facility on the depot roof to provide more train storage.
Subways transport people more economically than buses even if they are expensive to build. A train with a crew of 2 can carry 800 people. It would take 16 buses to do the same. And since the trains are faster they can get turned around quicker and carry even more passengers.
@@globie1000 You are correct on that though there would still be a need for some city bus routes to continue operating (I could see much of the premium express bus routes being eliminated as well).
Im thinking About having the IND UTIca Avenue Line just go on REMsen Av too.
I AGREE WITH YOUR PROPOSAL
The Utica Ave Line needs to be built to Kings Plaza Mall. The Nostrand Ave should also be built to Ave U Brooklyn with a major subway yard under Marine Park. This would connect the Utica the line & the Nostrand Ave line, this yard would alleviate the travel north to the Bronx for the IRT numbered line!!!!
I live along Utica Ave and constantly think about have a line run through here. I would propose a stop between Clarkson and Winthrop Streep. Because of the hospitals. And flatlands for the b82sbs. Depending on how the station is built kings highway would need to extend to ave h because the sheer amount of people that take the 103 and 6 so people aren’t walking far to catch the bus or inter boro. But that’s my opinion otherwise amazing video👌👍🏼
Very very good proposal... you need to apply for a Job with the city's proposal team...
Oh that would be valid
Had it not been for Robert Moses mass planning of highways and parkways and other financial factors in the past, we would've definitely see this line and others standing today and ultimately help relieve some major issues the system have now. Btw, you think the Archer Avenue line should get a short or long extension past Jamaica Center Parsons-Archer?
Quick question, how do you propose getting the number 4 out of tunnel to make a 90 degree elevated turn from Eastern Parkway on to Utica Ave, at its most constricted and congested point, doing so without demolishing that whole intersection, which includes historical, prime commercial and residential real estate properties? Then you’re going to somehow squeeze two tracks of elevated subway at its most constricted point and then have a station at Empire Blvd which is the intersection of 4 roads?
Your plan would make more sense if it where in tunnel…. Water issues and all…which to me, would be and easier headache to deal with than the above ground monstrosity and legal quagmire you’re proposing. You need to go back to the drawing board because that plan won’t go anywhere.
The line will have to be elevated due to Brooklyn terrain as well. The Kings Plaza bound track would have to descend on a 3.3% grade if it were to continue underground, however a smoother profile (which is generally what is preferable) is available if the line portaled out onto an El just south of Carroll Street. The connection to the Eastern Pkwy Line would be underground, not an elevated connection. If the line were underground, the line would suffer from an extremely high cost due to the waterproofing needed. The next phase of the 2nd Avenue Line already slated to cost $6 Billion, and to surpass that mark would be an embarrassment.
The answer to that is you don’t. A lot of the Utica Avenue Subway plans have a tunnel portal further down, past Empire Blvd. Mystic Transit’s plan as well as my own plans are no exceptions. An ideal plan is to have the Utica Avenue Line continue as a tunnel for for the first mile or two, to about Rutland or so. From there, it would be elevated the rest of the way.
What software were you using to make the new train lines? Is it available?
its an idea that was suggested back in the 80's. it will have to be a subway all the way to KP. There is not a wide enough space on the Ave to exit from underground to surface.
Have it run as a Subway for the first mile or two, then portal out at Rutland Rd, purchasing a few commercial properties roadside in order to construct it. Then build it elevated down to Kings Plaza.
Keep it going to Floyd Bennett Field and that massive parking lot at Jacob Riis Park.
The entire coverage of these areas, including at the end of the line is National Parkland. I’m not really seeing any justification for a Utica Avenue Line extension going to Jacob Riis Park.
Another godly video😮💨
Great video
Thanks!
Yes. The Roger Junction needs to be fixed. What would be the reason it was built this way? I know the 2 doesn't interfere with the junction. But it is the #5, the same way it does when it cross over the 2 tracks after 180th Street. So they MTA suggested that the #2 be the express while the #5 becomes the local. The community was against this change. The #5 appears to be the more favorable line in the Bronx at least. It operates on Lexington Avenue. It has a more straight pattern in Manhattan. The #2 (and #3) on the other hand swings west making several stops that local trains like the #1, B/C and #6 makes. And it express service is the raw end of the pack.
Anyway, it almost unbelievable that the local #3 share the same track with the express #4. Am I just acknowledging this? I thought the issue was with the #5 crossing the #3 local track to get to Flatbush? Does the Manhattan bound #5 have this same problem?
I believe it was built this way to minimize disruptions on Eastern Pkwy as well as a prototype for the IND Central Park West Line. It was horribly built, though easy to fix.
I would’ve loved to have seen this. Sadly I no longer live on the B46 or B35 bus routes. I now live off the N line unfortunately.
What's the subway map editor you're using, it is sick!
It wouldn't be a bad idea to build the Utica Ave line because then Kings Plaza will be very convenient to get to since the subway would go right to it and it won't take about an hour no more to get to Kings Plaza from the Flatbush Ave LIRR station by bus since that's about how long it takes to get there by bus?
After seeing this: YES
The mezzanine ends and leaves space for the platform and tracks at the Utica Ave stop on the Fulton Street line.
I know this is really a discussion for your deinterlined video but, personally I prefer having local and express service to both the Nostrand and New Lots branch. I think another idea would be a fly junction built. This would eliminate track conflicts alongside proper scheduling.
For the N/B direction have the line from nostrand run alongside the local. They can split to the local and express after they both cross under the express and rise to the same level.
For the S/B direction the local line would curve outwards making space for the Nostrand track to start then duck under to curve.
Basically something similar to Briarwood junction on the E/F but accommodating for the bi-level design of the New Lots line.
This would be possible, except to construct it, per the MTA’s report in 2009, would take about 7 years and require the actual excavation of Eastern Pkwy, not to even mention the cost. Even the MTA cited lower throughput with such a junction design rather than adding only 2 additional switches to the existing junction. Nostrand Avenue riders prefer 7th Avenue service much more than Lexington Avenue service, which is why the 5 only runs to Brooklyn during weekdays. Even then, the cross-platform transfer at Franklin Avenue isn’t nearly at capacity, so I don’t think one seat rides matter as much here.
@@TMC_BC Nostrand ave doesn’t have the traffic on weekends to support the intensive service of the 2 & 5 on weekends.
More passengers use Crown Heights & the New Lots stations. Wouldn’t they have less service than Nostrand who would have two services?
@@MIkeDye200202holla It’s also due to the fact that, unlike the Bronx, 7th Ave demand is higher on Nostrand. New Lots and Crown Heights would actually gain service under the proposal Mystic explained here.
@@MIkeDye200202holla Nobody’s getting reduced service. In fact, the deinterlining will provide an incentive to operate the 5 into Brooklyn on weekends (with the Utica Avenue Line it will).
Do that video on a proposal to extend the F Train from Jamaica 179th Street all the way to the UBS arena by the Cross Island Expressway.
I always wondered the same "why isnt there a utica ave. Line" its a very grest idea especially because i hate taking packed buses on eastern pkwy
How about a light rail straight to kings plaza? Using a heavy rail can be very complex.
Not necessarily given that more logical plans for the Utica Avenue Line call for it to be elevated (except for about the northernmost mile south of Eastern Pkwy to south of Empire Blvd).
I feel like either the 2 or 3 train should also go down more along nostrand to coney island or sheepshead bay
I’d love to see a Utica Avenue line one day, but not in the form of an extension of the 4 line. I’d like to see it as planned in the IND Second System.
If the Utica Avenue Line were to be built as a B Division line, I can see the K and V returning to serve it. The K will run from Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx, replacing the B, and run express along Central Park West and 8th Avenue, towards Canal Street, before splitting off from the A, C, and E where it’ll run along the unbuilt Worth Street Branch until it reaches Brooklyn, meeting up with the V, the latter having split from the F after 2nd Avenue and into Brooklyn, at South 4th Street. The K runs express while the V runs local.
The K and V both run along Bushwick Avenue before reaching Myrtle Avenue, after which they will run between Stuyvesant Avenue and Malcom X Boulevard, before reaching Utica Avenue-Fulton Street, where passengers can transfer to the A and C trains. The both of them continue to run along Utica Avenue until they reach Flatbush Avenue-Kings Plaza, where the V terminates, while the K continues on to Floyd Bennet Field, where it’ll terminate.
Why? What’s wrong with extending the IRT on Utica Avenue?
@@TheRailLeaguer well, if you look at how the Utica Avenue station on the A and C is designed, you can tell it was meant to serve 2 branch lines, not just Fulton Street. To have a station designed like that but serve only one branch line is just rather odd.
That, and I don’t want South 4th Street to remain an empty shell forever. If we can’t build a new tunnel under the East River between 2nd Avenue and South 4th Street, I at least hope they can do something with it. Maybe turn it into a night club, or make it part of the in-system transfer between the G at Broadway and the J and M at Union Avenue (new station that replaces both Hewes and Lorimer Street).
Perhaps maybe if neither the Houston Street tube or Worth Street Branch can be built, then perhaps new connecting tracks can be built between the F tracks at Jay Street-Metrotech and the G tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets, and build a new tunnel branching off from Bedford-Nostrand Avenues on the G from Lafayette Avenue, traversing underneath either Stuyvesant Avenue or Malcolm X Boulevard, and then under Utica Avenue, towards Floyd Bennet Field. So only the V might be brought back, and run along Utica Avenue which is either a 2 or 3-track line.
The 4, I believe, should run along Rockaway Parkway, towards Canarsie Pier. Canarsie is somewhat of a Subway desert, being only served by the L, so extending the 4 from Crown Heights-Utica Avenue to Canarsie Pier may provide Canarsie with 2 Subway lines instead of just 1, and, well, the L doesn’t go that far into Canarsie, not since the portion from Rockaway Parkway to Canarsie Pier was demolished in the 1920’s.
@@VinceHere98 That seems to be a bit excessive compared to just having the IRT on it from Eastern Pkwy, especially since the ridership potential is higher below Eastern Pkwy.
If anything, that South 4th Street Shell should be used for a new 4-track trunk line replacing the current Jamaica and Myrtle Avenue elevated lines, provide additional capacity and speed up service between Broadway Junction, Middle Village, and both Midtown and Lower Manhattan.
As for the IRT, while Utica will branch from there, the whole corridor can benefit from an extension of the New Lots Line to Flatlands Avenue to better serve Spring Creek. For the L, I also recommend replacing the elevated portion along Van Sinderen Avenue with a new underground alignment paralleling the same area. It would then shift under Rockaway Parkway and operate along that street to the pier. This in turn should allow for additional capacity and coverage of the line to be increased on that end.
It's a mess.
Extend Subways in Eastern Queens and build a Kissena/Parsons 4 track line featuring a Bronx to Queens Subway parallel to the Q44 SBS before considering the Utica Avenue line.
Why?
There really is no need for a Subway between the Bronx and Queens. It needs a regional rail line (which is thankfully coming, though it needs stops in Queens).
@@TMC_BC interesting idea for a NJ link
Very interesting. Why is there problems at that juncture.
Send this to the mta to give them ideas 🤗🤗🤗🤗
Good idea!
@@MysticTransit they already have this idea
@@qjtvaddict since when
The biggest argument like mentioned is the people living along that line being against this due to property values! It’s tragic what happened to all the EL’s after the 1920’s and now seeing how we have to create so much in public funds to make up for this private greed then!
I do think there needs to be more stops. Instead of kings highway, ave L, kings plaza, i think it should be kings highway, flatlands, ave O, kings plaza. But thats whatever