David Deutsch, Peter Boghossian, & Reid Nicewonder Talk Fermi Paradox, Ideological Contagion, & More
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- Опубліковано 14 чер 2024
- Peter Boghossian and Reid Nicewonder, President of Street Epistemology International, are joined by one of their intellectual heroes, David Deutsch.
The conversation begins with an exploration of the contagious nature of ideologies, where good intentions can lead to intellectual pitfalls. The three discuss the challenges posed by Social Justice ideology, scrutinizing its evasion tactics in the face of critique and the broader societal implications, such as corrupting peer-reviewed literature and hindering open discourse.
Street Epistemology principles underscore the conversation as an antidote to hindering discourse. Other topics in this discussion include problem-solving, philosophy, the Fermi Paradox, cosmic exploration, and more!
David Deutsch was born in Haifa, Israel, and pursued his physics studies at Cambridge and Oxford Universities. After spending several years at the University of Texas at Austin, he returned to Oxford, where he currently resides and works.
Website: www.daviddeutsch.org.uk/
Books: www.daviddeutsch.org.uk/books/
Reid Nicewonder is the President of Street Epistemology International. Find him on UA-cam @CordialCuriosity and X: / cordialcurious
To learn more about Street Epistemology, take the free self-directed course, Navigating Beliefs, here:
streetepistemology.com/learni...
Chapters
0:00 Intro
3:23 Postmodern attacks on civilization
9:36 Street Epistemology to encourage critical thinking
18:05 Engaging with Social Justice Ideology
29:24 Impact of a "mind virus"
35:24 Epistemology discussion
51:12 Skepticism about philosophy
1:02:07 Critical thinking
1:10:51 Fermi Paradox/Aliens
1:21:26 Solving the West's problems
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We discuss Spectrum Street Epistemology in this episode. If you need a refresher, watch this next: ua-cam.com/video/TjWYUv3QqZo/v-deo.html
I've found myself seeing a guy that goes by Digital Gnosis.
He really seems to hate you.
Self identifies as woke and claims you have faulty epistemology.
What's your take?
Is he just a stereotypical wokester?
Looking forward to this discussion
4:51🎉is a y6yyf😂gtyh😂in 😂😂gt😮tgo tty
being "woke" (toxic ad hominem) verses being wank
It's extremely disappointing to hear you listing your list of problems society is facing and not mentioning global warming
Glad David Deutsch is getting more exposure. As far as I can see, he’s one of the most important thinkers on the planet
Absolutely, and an excellent tutor and communicator
He's literally one of the most intelligent human beings on Earth.
Terrible haircut, though😮
Hopefully people become pro capitalist and reject progressivism as a result
I had a blast helping interview David. Thanks for the opportunity, Peter!
David is the GOAT. Thank you!
It was cool to finally see you in front of the camera!
Best surname since Pluckrose
I love your content Reid. Have been watching for many years.
More, David Deutsch! Everyone should read his books, fabric of reality, and the beginning of infinity! Then read them again, and again, and again, and again! Thank you for having him on
Oooh Peter! David Deutch's books have influenced me more than anything and made me truly appreciate epistemology. Thank you for introducing him to a new audience.
For me, him and Popper are the must reads for anyone who wants to follow useful philosophy.
@Philognosis1 Yes, and I'd say for anyone who wants to think, understand, and form ideas about most life quandaries (with or without intentionally studying or forming a philosophy)
Me too. And I've only recently discovered him.
Can anyone here recommend one of his books? Where to start? I did appreciate this interview a whole lot.
@@MissBeeeBeee The Fabric of Reality is his first book. The second is The beginning of infinity. You don’t really need to read them in any particular order. I personally started with The beginning of infinity. The latter is more knowledge and progress relevant, and the first more science related (Quantum mechanics, computation etc).
I, ashamedly, have not heard of David Deutsch before. Thank you for introducing him to me. I was enthralled by his insight, and look forward to delving deeper! Fantastic discussion.
It's nice to see the both of you sitting side by side! I like this format!
Deutsch is an insane genuis and I am here for all of it.
Finally David Deutsch is getting the attention he deserves.
I need more David Deutsch in my life
Thank you for putting this stuff up in a world of bullies and nonsense. Science is the way. Professors are the ones to look to.
Holy God damn! David Deutsch is my hero!
He is amazing!
When David Deutsch is applying a critique of pomo, I sit up and listen. The Physics-envious social scientists/ humanities professors must be going into ad hominem hyperdrive!
A privilege to experience this session with DD thank you
Wonderful as ever, Peter. You are now my favourite person. Can Americans become UK Prime Minister?
Great choice for an interview!
Thank you
It’s taken me years. Years! To fully grasp what Deutsch’s (and therefore Popper) epistemology really means. The language is simple enough to fool you in thinking it’s not deep, but the ideas, when taken seriously, you start to realise just how deep they really are and therefore how long it takes to really grasp. Deutsch himself has said that he took years to digest Popper’s ideas/epistemology so it’s hardly surprising that it can take average Joe even longer.
But I can’t get over how satisfying it is to understand even a small percentage of it. The clarity in Deutsch’s arguments is astounding. The boiling down to what it all really comes down to is equally so. I do hope that more people catch on and take it seriously as it will mean we can make progress at a much faster rate.
Thanks so much for uploading the great conversation.
Wow, that's crazy. You invited Deutsch! That's awesome!
He’s fantastic!
Rather than turtles all the way down, it's error correction all the way up. There's nowhere to stand, it's all conjecture. We are just giving our best guess on what action to take every moment, applying our creativity to problems as they arise. This change in world view is a momentous shift with vast and infinite reaching implications. Really fun discussion, thanks so much!
Duetsch's point about being born with full access to an error correcting disposition is very important. We are born creatively intelligent. It is only through bad outside influence, like coercive parenting and education, or error-entrenching, societal memes, that obstructions to this process are embedded in a nervous system. All thinking is critical, as Deutsch often says, as it only arises to resolve conflicting ideas. To help people think you don't need to teach anything, rather you help them unlearn what has been obstructing their innate access to creativity and reason.
It's cool when you see all the connections between Deutsch's world view and that found in Zen Buddhism, Taoism, the Bhagavad Gita, Yoga Sutras. The non-coercive mode of life in relation to the self, solving the most fun problems as they arise in the moment, understanding everything is a guess with nowhere to stand, returning to the unobstructed child's mind, doing things for their own sake...it goes on and on. I've found it so fun to apply a Popperian epistemology to this ancient Eastern wisdom, as it gives a good explanation for why it helps you solve the problems that arise in life better than the Western understanding of how to live.
This idea at 19:30 that these modes of thought are created by parents struck a chord with me.
Because, I often think; well I grew up in Boulder Colorado, second only to SF or Portland in wokeness.
So why don’t I think like almost all of my peer group? Even my father is completely consumed by partisan politics and propaganda from the media.
What’s striking is that I can clearly see the connecting line between my college professor dad, and my political views. Although we disagree on almost everything except the fundamental principles.
But anyways, I don’t think people develop their beliefs by reason necessarily. I think it’s a good objective. But I think beneath even that rationale, humans are narrative creatures.
I MIGHT be a little smarter than my dad, but the difference in our politics is entirely about the narrative; and the difference between the information creating the narratives. And there’s an element where he WANTS to live in the partisan reality that he perceives. At least subconsciously he wants to believe that he’s on the good guy team with the people that care about the environment, fighting against the evil greedy republicans etc etc.
That’s a narrative that he enjoys whether he’s aware of it or not.
And simultaneously I enjoy being a contrarian and finding the holes in an epistemology; question everything. Which is probably the product of having liberal parents in the 90’s and discovering George Carlin when I was ~10.
But the point is these are narratives about what is the purpose and value and intention behind the thinking. What you think about and where your attention is drawn and why. It’s deeper than the conclusions; it’s the rationale behind the goal of thinking. My dad taught me to think like he does, but we have different narratives; objectives, when we think. My objective serves my narrative view of the world, and his serves his narrative view of the world, but they use the same kind of story telling to do it.
It’s like; a christian thinks from the frame of christianity; not outside that frame to asses it. So you start with a belief and then you map everything onto it either to enhance your confirmation bias, or just because it is the ruler you use to measure reality.
Before any productive thought is had, there is a foundational narrative created in upbringing, about HOW to interact with information.
I see David Deutsch I click David Deutsch.
Interviews seem to go to a specific place, where conversation can go anywhere! ❤ The channel.
Thank you for having David!
Wonderful! Thanks for doing this interview with one of the most interesting thinkers alive! Great interview!
Reid!! Thank you both.
Our pleasure!
@13:30 I too am so grateful to people like Peter and Elon and Douglas and Jordan and Dave and the many others who are on the front lines of this thing. I'm slowly learning how to speak to my increasingly (relatively) conservative friends so that I can keep them and beinf the into the light.
Wonderful. What a fantastic conversation. I currently believe that David’s sense that “woke” is, at least in part, a result of childhood influences is in and of itself accurate. Woke is in my view a manifestation of a kind of developmental immaturity that is itself the result of children/adolescents/young adults being the primary influence on each other for socialization rather than developmentally mature adults (parents and other parental -like figures) being the primary influences for socialization i.e Woke is, in part, the result of a peer oriented, youth-focused culture wherein adults never become developmentally mature such that they can tolerate differences and are fundamentally afraid of social rejection - the qualities of "wokeness” (as it has come to be manifest in Western societies, particularly in the Angloshere) such as authoritarianism, intolerance, bigotry, fundamentalism with respect to belief’s, idealism, rejection of criticism, the primacy of group rights etc.. are symptoms of what is at root a type of developmental immaturity - other influences such as the role of elites in society, Marxism, the absence of religion, social media, institutional capture etc are important influences on the formation of and the particular qualities of “wokeness” in the West, but not fundamental to it’s genesis. Put differently, the susceptibility to the woke mind ‘virus’ stems from this type of developmental immaturity I keep referencing. From this point of view, being more mature, more adult (being able to tolerate mixed emotions, being able to hold opposing thoughts in mind, being able to empathize with others adequately, being capable of a true egalitarian stance in life) would be a defense against the virus.
I agree we need more grown ups. Unfortunately our current society is set up in such a way that we are infantilized as mass consumers from the moment we are born, and we often blame or even punish children for acting out in any way that challenges the status quo.
@@lukedmoss Have you read Lord of the Flies, or seen the movie? The author was a school teacher.
@@liberality I have not, although I am familiar with the bare bones of the story. I reviewed Wikipedia and apparently in 1965 there was a real-life incident that that resembles the premise of the book, the Tongan castaways. However, the boys in question survived 15 months and had made life on the island rather good all this considered.
@@lukedmoss Children were much more resilient and independent in 1965, I'll bet. Today's kids have a meltdown if the WiFi goes off.
@@liberality Seems like there's something there. Although, while I'm not familiar with the data or any research on that, I'm sure we can't put all (or even most?) of the blame on the kids. Helicopter parenting and the oversaturation of screens come to mind. I'm more inclined to think we as a society have failed our children than the other way around.
Problems are enevitable is a profound idea. It's takes some of the sting out of confronting them. Love Davids work. Thanks gents!
Fabulous conservation with a very genuine chap x
Truth and intuition come from the same source. A true spiritual practice cultivates this at a deep level. A return to this and overcoming the fears spoken about in this discussion are essential.
The book Deutsch mentions is Wittgenstein's Poker by Edmonds and Eidinow.
Thank you
Wonderful discussion
Well done and thank you xxx
Very fascinating talk. Thanks for sharing 😎
Glad you enjoyed it
here for David Deutsch. would love to hear him speak more
Its good to see David speaking out about this societal issue. I know he has spoken about his ideas on good parenting before - I only vaguely know about them but my gist was it was very much around intellectual freedom and pretty much putting in minimal possible constraits.. this all makes more sense to me now knowing how he views parental coercion (and coercion in general) - basically I think he recognises that for these ideas to survive they have to be embedded and coercion is some important part of that. If you take that away and just allow intellectual freedom to the maximal extent at every level of society, then you may error but you error on the side of maintaining progress and avoiding some static society.
Holy S..Reid facetime...Awesome. Great interview also.
Oh my! Reid is a real human!
I wonder if he has legs?
I thought he was an AI bot built for street epistemology
Indeed!
My head hurts.
Good. I had to read Peter's books several times and enjoyed them more each time. Trust me, very intelligent people will admit this too and it isn't because David is a poor communicator.
Peter, this is just brilliant! The only possibility of me ever understanding David Deutsch in real time is you explaining al of this along the way. What a treat.
Project hail Mary is coming out as a movie as well. Another book by Andy weir. And might I say it is even better.
Great analysis.
7:55 the only judge of an institution is how good they are at correcting errors
12:20 why being in a friend group where you can’t say certain things is a big problem. And why people (like me) stay quiet
13:10 so you’ve gotta pick solvable problems for the hills you wanna fight on
13:55 progress won’t do itself. Somebody has to drive it forward and be brave
24:00 why teachers can’t have spread Woke ideology
31:00 why a culture of fear is crucial for the woke mind virus
Just read Fabric of Reality over the past few weeks. Mind expanding stuff and remarkably relevant for something published now decades ago. Cant wait to watch this.
39:50 objectivity in morality. This deserves widely quoting elsewhere.
He's not only talking about the slaughter on both sides of current conflicts here.
In the UK tens of thousands of young indigenous girls are being groomed with drugs and flattery, then pack r*ped and 'disposed' of.
The perpetrators are not being actively pursued by the authorities who would rather label the girls as under age prostitutes (a legal fiction - under aged sex is statutory r*pe) to avoid accusations the perpetrators are being 'systemically' oppressed because they have brown skin.
Cultural relativism has c*strated the UK authorities.
Sorry for the *s, YT keep threatening to ban me for being a potty mouth.
I heard about this horrific situation and it made me speechless. I don’t have words. So basically the police is enabling this absurdity to continue? How and why? I think I know why (as you explained it and I have heard that elsewhere too), but my brain cannot fully comprehend this. How did “we” (manner of speaking; I don’t live in the UK) get here?!
@@MissBeeeBeeeYT deleted this, trying again: crude physical fear given a cover of fashionable rhetoric, to make cowards feel heroic, is quite an effective mix.
@@sanniepstein4835 I don’t have words, but you do! Well said. I am glad YT allowed me, a mere mortal, to read it. Thank you.
Beautiful Thinking!
Excellent job 💪
Moments that stand out to me:
35:17
“Does the following sentence make sense? It is rational to align one’s confidence to the evidence”
“No”
Hm, I’m thinking that no, it’s not sufficient (without good explanation to ground it) but it is necessary for a reliable epistemology. David and Steven Pinker seemed to have some small disagreement about this in their conversation. Thoughts anyone?
41:52
“Why is slavery bad? Ultimately because it’s rationally derivable”
“I don’t think we derive things”
I have to say I’m a bit unclear as to why David thinks we don’t derive things…
59:19 “Falsifiability is much less important than most people think it is”
I seem to remember Peter saying something like it’s one of the most important tools for people to internalise if they’re to be willing to revise their beliefs (because they’re willing to consider how their belief might be erroneous). I guess David is talking about falsifiability’s lesser importance within the larger topic of good explanations, the thing he thinks is most important. In his book, The Beginning of Infinity, he says on page 26 that "The standard scientific methodology of dropping theories when refuted by experiment is implied by the requirement for good explanations"
I think it’s super cool that Mr. Bean is getting into the SE game.
Reid finally steps in front of the camera.
Thank you for the interview. I have always considered myself a liberal but am so sick and tired of being told my reality and experiences don’t account for anything and shouldn’t inform my opinions and feelings. Since the BLM protests, my car has been vandalized three times, my house has been set on fire twice and the stores in mg areas have been destroyed more than a dozen times. The same types of people have been causing all of that and yet they tell me I am the problem. My students can’t do half of the tasks that they are supposed to do because of the standards in admission. Having to argue with some that only two sexes exist no matter how repulsive someone might look with their makeup, piercings and exposed private parts… it is enough. Let us not pretend that the far left isn’t spiteful, vindictive and jealous of the achievements or innate attributes of anyone who isn’t a professional victim dreaming of a Marxist society. Wee can’t keep pretending that celebrating mediocrity is anything but a roadmap to a horrific future.
Thank you
I am assuming you have read Carl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance? You can have faith in classical liberalism and still decry the intolerant.
They are bullies. Now men can’t hot women because they identify as a woman- sick stuff
I am sorry that happened to you. It sounds intense. Very hard to extend empathy to those who don't offer it to you.
@@lukedmoss Agreed. And a question: at what point, if any, does it become unethical to extend empathy to radical actors who strategically abandon morality to advance their own tribal ideology? Would offering empathy to them "gentle their condition" or enable further toxic disregard? Is there a point at which we are obligated to stop seeing people as ends in themselves, as when they consistently treat others as means to further a destructive agenda?
I do like an exchange of ideas.
Bigot (joke).
it is important to separate what is possibly true about existence, vs what is possibly discernible about existence. i think that very much answers peters question about regresses, one can not necessarily show that a regress is infinite, but that does not mean that a regress cannot be infinite.
Wonderful. Reid, I especially wish to complement you on not once using any of those noxious filler words, “sort of,“ “kind of,” “basically,” “you know,” or “like.“ You must have been home-schooled.
Reid is the brains behind this operation!
This is the "Hotel California" problem. You may only enter but not exit kind of syndrome.
YES, indeed, David. Error detection and correction is a process that the West has excelled at developing, sharing, and institutionalising.
Thanks!
Thank you for supporting our work
1:23:00 - Really dig this guy... I'm with you, David.
My biggest take away from this is that the way that people look at a problem will determine how they will try and solve it. For all of his talk of Popper, Deutsch is a scientist through and through.
In regards to your last question. I would submit that the national debt will never be "paid back." It's not meant to be paid back like a household debt, nor does a government want zero debt. The question would be better looked at in terms of questioning whether we will able to service it in a sustained manner given known current and future commitments. And it's a key question. Maybe the most important one.
I'm surprised someone as well-versed in the many-worlds interpretation would not have more to say about the Fermi paradox. But I suppose it fits in with the general theme of the conversation.
Thank you for this enlightening discussion..... certainly not many instances of this these days.
Just thinking..... i think that we need to dig into these issues we currently have and do our best to resolve them..... on the other hand, when all is said and done, humans either succeed in experiencing fullness in our lives, or we do not (isn't that our prime urgency?). i am not talking about some form of escapism. i am talking about the fact that people who try the things that the woke movement (or religion or ideology) is promising, in order to be more fulfilled or content in "how they feel inside their own skin", are disappointed in the long run..... why? Because they are looking for fulfillment or contentment in the form of being accepted by their peers, of the sense that they are displaying themselves truthfully to the world, finding answers to our pressing issues etc..... from my many years of studying, and researching myself.... the truth of the matter is that there is no fulfillment or contentment to be found outside our own skin... it will always be found lacking... to fade with time.... and that true fulfillment is only to be found inside our own "now/present universe". We humans generally have not come to the realization that this is how we are built.
A number of worldviews get close to this truth, but then JUST miss the point, falling into the trap of this or that doctrinal set...... imho......
Such a vid ~ it's so burroughs ~ this hivemind
27:22 David doesn't seem to have experience with indoctrination, and so he struggles with the question of why schools can't effectively teach reading, but they can teach wokism. The answer is that wokism is about values, and it is propagated like a religion, with the tools of belonging, shame, etc. Two different methods, and two different ends. One holds beliefs - which is easy but one must integrate knowledge which is far harder. Unfortunately Reid and Peter didn't answer this as clearly as they should have imo.
I love the Moldbug cathedral and athocracy argument.
I often said white guilt is the original sin scam of the wokerati.
Your morals should determine who your friends are, not have your friends determine your morals.
I appreciate David's point about the 16th and 17th century being bleak and up pulling ourselves out of it. However, our house of cards is so much bigger. We have over 7 billion humans, most of them can't even start a fire, let alone maintain the agriculture or infrastructure necessary to support 7 billion lives. Our situation is so precarious that the fallout would send us back to the stone age, that's if any of us even survived the collapse.
My brain hasn’t said “woah” so frequently during an interview since JBP met with John Vervaeke
Deutsch's optimism scares the hell out of me
Peter, read the short essay, "Bulverism", in God in the Dock, by C.S. Lewis. It's a great explanation of one of the woke's communication techniques that David Deutsch mentioned.
The essential feature is that humans have a requirement for ideas, we MUST have a set of abstract concepts in order to operate in the world. The problems happen when the ideas are bad ones, usually in the form of "the dark triad" of tribalism, mysticism and collectivism.
Just as I could decide to never take drugs and I would carry on through my life totally fine, I could not do that with food - and ideas are like food. i must have food and what food I eat can dramatically affect my life.
Evolution has selected individuals that can tell the difference between good, dodgy and poisonous food. When nurture fails us and parenting, family and social bonds become weak our diet suffers.
Fast food is acting on our bodies as this crap is acting on our minds, and it appears it is for similar reasons.
Are you familiar with Calhoun's Universe 25 Mouse Utopia experiments. It is a startling illustration of what happens when selection pressures are eliminated. Selection pressures warp and become dysfunctional.
I would put forward that social relation is arguably more real and 'essential' than any abstract principle. Camus wrote "We get into the habit of living before the habit of thinking."
@@lukedmoss You might like to look into critical realism and the four planar social being, if you are not familiar with it.
@@liberality interesting lead! I don't have the time to deep dive now, but I'll give it my best try with skepticism and grace.
I wonder if in a world of exploding choice some ppl subconsciously crave a limitation of thought system ie a cult/wokeism.
Like craving the simpler days of childhood.
Calling people one disagrees with woke is also a defense mechanism... When a society struggles internally due to warring camps , then it is not necessarily just the ideologies themselves that cause this but the dynamic of them interacting with each other. Once you have warring factions people will align more strongly with viewpoints that set them apart from the other camp, so as to distance themselves from the opponent. many contemporary viewpoints in the culture war are modern versions of "don't eat pork", which the Israelites used to distance themselves from the Philistines.
They self-identify themselves as "Woke" because everyone else but them are "asleep", geddit?
I should know because I have dealt with plenty of them, and they all have the same indentik ideas and creepy, clone-like beliefs. You can actually write down precisely what they're going to say before they've even open their mouths.
Those who feign ignorance and think they gotta easy gotcha by asking "what's Woke?" only need to read the Cosmopolitan article from 2017: "is your boyfriend Woke?" knew what is was then and openly pushed it down everyone's throat. Unfortunately, for the Woke, the rest of us aren't fooled
While not very "hard" SF, if you guys liked the story structure of The Martian, you might enjoy Craig A. Falconer's Earthburst series. Particularly the first book in the series is similar, with the protagonist stranded alone aboard a space station trying to figure out his situation as one problem-solving situation after another.
I love the Martian! Both the book and the movie. 👨🚀
"I think that um this picture of what reason is is wrong. It's it's not a way of getting to a conclusion or of justifying
a conclusion or of coming from some secure thing like evidence to reach the conclusion. None of those is true. Reason is entirely critical. Which is why it's always finding errors and correcting them. It is not finding a way to justify a
thing and say that that's now finally the truth. So we that's why it has to begin with a problem so if we have a problem a conflict. Then we know that either one side is wrong or the other side is wrong or they're both wrong but they can't be both
right so the the problem is is a fertile thing."
53:07 Why can’t it be turtles, all the way down?
On the Grievance studies and some of the valid criticisms and valid ways it was attacked:
- Faking her identity was against Helens emplyment contract (although I think they should have seen the faking of the personality as part ofthe study and therefor excempted this case)
- The study did not have a control group making it impossible to draw most of the conclusions from it that people draw from it - for example you might just as much be able to publish fraudulent work of the same caliber in physics, as there are many low impact journals who will basically accept anything. the few indications we have on the efficacy of peer review suggest that it is close to useless in general, which would be in accordance with the results from the grievance studies.
- The few studies that got accepted didn't get accepted in any high impact journals
- The studies with claims of empirical data were more likely to be accepted, which supports the idea that empirical data matters to the people in the fields.
Awesome
“One should try even harder not to argue” Haha! @17:24
David:
What kind of parental coercion do you think causes the mental hang-up? What is the intent/indented outcome? What is the process? What does this look like?
Is your conception here abuse or manipulation directed at a child? Or is it something a child observes?
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Agreed that ideological capture of schools probably isn't an effective means to perpetuate the ideology, social media echo chambers seem to be a more likely source of ideological spread, especially when we do not paint the entire generation as believing it. K-12 schools are however a permissive environment where children can act it out away from close parental supervision. Peer pressure in that environment, as well as every generation's tendency when young to rebel against the authority of the previous generation, seem to be amplifying factors.
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Culture of fear, yes, but also of shame. Shame of accident of birth (skin color or biological sex = oppressor/oppressed status), and the possibility of reversing social isolation into validation through changing identity (queer coding).
It's neglect.
Parenting was instinctual and dominated by extended families and the immediate population - neighbours.
Now the siblings are few, familial generations are lost and neighbours are strangers.
Marxism preys upon this fragmentation and atomisation of society.
It has lead to what the Marxists perceived to be an opportunity.
Marxism (or the Gnostic cult it is born of) is a parasitic occult faith in the power of destruction to "liberate" through fire "aufhaben".
Without the perspective of intergenerational investment and guidance each generation is free to adopt outlooks that (say) grandparents might have been appalled by.
Occult gnosticism is attractive because society's economic authority is in decline and liberalism actively encourages new generations to explore and seek out adaptive behaviour in such situations.
Without social resourcing and schooling from the former sources (family, neighbours) the flaming destruction of our heritage is both promoted and smiled upon.
Iconoclasm is 'good' to the classical liberal mindset. This has been profitable in the past because the morality that built classical liberalism still guided and contained the revision of the pillars holding up the roof.
When i was woke i had friends (a couple) who i thought were racist, ignorant etc. A few years later, they have become woke whilst i have been red pilled. Its truly bizarre to observe
What's single thing your beliefs have changed the most on? Did that begin or follow from the change in mindset?
What most influenced your change of beliefs?
Me too. It's an upside-down world. It's hard for me to fathom, at times, how much my views have changed.
@@FartPantherI am someone who came out of weapons grade programming. You have to realize you are dealing with a people in a religion, who doesn't know they are in a religion. The only thing that kept me from going all in was my own life experience. It is not a matter of one red pill, you have to take the entire boottle, and each one adds up. I remember hearing an interview with someone who left the West Borough Baptist church, and it took calm discussions for an entire year to get them out. The only thing that kept me diving the whole way in was my own life experience. Liberalism, invented in Pennsylvania, is Quaker dogma. They are commies using extreme Protestant values as a moral shield. Jefferson was a Quaker, Nixon was a Quaker. They landed here at the same time as the Puritans. That is why people refer to them as the New Puritans.
I disagree with the professor here about school systems because the school teaches you adherence to authority. They simply replace faith in God with faith in institutions. I had that faith till the plandemic. I worked pandemic control, I helped develop the system. I knew they were lying. And the things they were implementing, were never part of the plan. And they weaponized the propaganda, that even though I was the expert, no one would listen to me. My own mother kept buying ME masks. I know how Oppenheimer feels.
I came out of the Rockefeller dream system in Pennsylvania where its designed to make you a steel worker I wasn't even taught geography. My mother, Federal civil rights, and hardcore democrat, even worked on the Jimmy Carter campaign ( he really is a nice man) but I never voted Democrat because the uniparty has always been there. People weren't divided up till social media.
So I am an independent Jefferson liberal. I sided with the left on working class issues and free speech. We knew the Satanic Panic was a psy op. And then there were the first Amendment fights over censorship of music due to "public decency". It was rock and hip hop versus the Parental Music Rights council, headed by...Al and Tipper Gore. Republicans were never free speech until they started being silenced. Conservatives tried to shut down Nirvana. we knew it was a psy op because metal is antidrug, antiwar, but it is anti-establishment. And this was the Cold War, we have been here before. Those events made me a free speech absolutist so I was an ally of the left regarding free expression and workers rights and working class feminism. Growing up in the shadow of Carnegie, I was very anticorporate. If you don't like companies going on PR campaigns to scrub their image, you can thank him for inventing it. I am also a rational conservationist because I got my education before the university system was corrupted. Back to the redpilling, when Jordan Peterson was helping incels not be incels, I thought that was a great thing for women, he should have been considered an ally, but the left wouldn't stop attacking him. Then the censorship started. That is not a liberal value, that is a fascist one.
What turned me into an enemy was MAPS. When I said that as a child victim and this was not cool, they called ME crazy.
We are in a major political interregnum, the biggest one since the civil war. All political alignments are on their head, that is why nothing makes sense. The wild part is that it is being done deliberately, but that is a dissertation for another time. They haven't just been screwing with the right, they shut down the antiwar movement. And we are in 1980 again. We are in a cold war with Russia, and the uniparty is trying to censor everyone over public decency again.
It originated with the múltipla choice test. Been going on for decades
The problem is not just intellectual, but spiritual also.
Religious ecstasy is an entry on Wikipedia. It seems applicable
Right or wrong is a feeling inside everyone no need to think we are all just humans time to all come together
The last topic at minute approx 1:21:00 is the US fiscal deficit. I see Bitcoin as providing a peaceful transition from Fiat currency and debt-based money to sound money...a "financial black hole" into which fiat money and all its unpayable debt will disappear.
Peter is nobly trying to find a way out of the current mess with minimal discomfort visited upon the masses and David is comfortable with allowing it to collapse and the people will rebuild a better, although also flawed, system. Peter is understandably concerned we may be past the point of no return, David doesn't believe in a point of no return and that things will sort themselves out. This is fascinating...
It’s a collective refusal and resistance to the acceptance and integration of the shadow. Helicoptered over protected children cannot cope with what was a painful process however the pain is now too much to bare for the over sensitive young generation.
I’ve been considering the concept that the coercive component of the woke mind virus is altruism (the standard of ethics associated with all collectivist ideology) which actually has the opposite effect of introducing pathological altruism. Not too dissimilar to what a cult might do in establishing disorganized attachment while also controlling and preventing access to information
Get me on your show, I’ll take on all of you
Reid! Speak Up! (GRIN)
What I’ve learned from this podcast is that Elon Musk is a national hero for buying Twitter, calling out the woke mind virus and pushing back against censorship.
David, I agree that schooling is the issue because being woke is about feelings not hard science.
longtime supporter of the Boghossian project. I know Reid is an integral part of all the work that yall do. However, moderating/interviewing does not seem to be where Reid’s gifts are best utilized. I hate say it but because he has so little inflection in his speaking voice it kinda pulls all the energy out of the conversation every time he speaks.
Big Brain 🧠 David
There's one solution to the Fermi Paradox that struck me. I enjoyed Fred Saberhagen's Beserker series of space opera stories. The Beserkers are artificial intelligences dedicated to hunting down and eliminating organic life wherever they find it. Sort of like Terminators with starships. They were created as a doomsday weapon long ago and far away, then turned on their creators. Humans are the first race the Beserkers have encountered that are both clever enough and aggressive enough to successfully fight them. The Beserker Hypothesis is that the Fermi paradox is due to Beserkers detecting and destroying any emerging technological civilization. We haven't heard from anyone because no one has yet survived the Beserkers.
Yup. I love that. Thanks
The answer to the Fermi paradox con be narrowed down to one word “distance”.
And why noone ever seen these guys?
All these fantasy - inspired solutions to the Fermi paradox are always facing the same problem:
That there's no evidence of any hyperadvanced technological civilization or AI/robotic explorers.
Nothing like that...veeery hard to believe that they are hiding themselves so successfully...
@@1234567marks
In the interior of our galaxy, the distances are hundreds or thousands light years.
Our galaxy is billions of years old.
Even with mediocre thruster technology (non relativistic speeds), AI-robotic explorers could have been in our solar system, at least briefly, in the past.
We have already observed other planetary systems, within only two decades!
Others didn't notice us? Hard to believe..
No evidence about such robotic visitors.
❤
Is Nicewonder an actual last name? It's kind of like one of those names like Lovejoy or Goodlove that sound like they're made up but they're actually real.
Well, for the problem of philosophical problems, the solution is simple, Wittgenstein is right about meaning being defined in a language game as it is used, and so on, but the meaning of the words used rest on a sort of experienced cognition, that is itself outside the language game. So we have a dual problem, when we use language to describe a problem, we must be aware of the limitations associated with language games and the entailed limitations of the use of language, symbolic logic and so on to ground meaning, but that doesn't mean that meaning doesn't exist it just means that the way that meaning is described with language is a bit loose by necessity in language, and in our experience the understanding of such problems are also necessarily a bit fuzzy because the sense of what our understanding is cannot be quite sharp, it can only be sharp by fiat, through rules like that of chess for example. On the one hand this is a problem of symbolic logic and meaning, we cannot encode the meaning into the symbolic logic, we can only do so by remembering how to apply rules to the symbols and sentences, the faculty to do this with more or less reliability on a case by case basis is not based in symbolic logic, it is based in existence of the substructure of our experience, whatever that structure actually is.
Now for morality we have this peculiar situation, we want to know what is objectively wrong to do, but we cannot prove what is right or wrong, the key here is to realize that a formal proof like checking whether a cup is on the floor or still on the table, is sort of missong the point, it would be bizzare if when asked to murder someone a person would have to take out a notepad and check whether it is right or wrong, morality veing objective would be meaningless if it required proof in that way, what we instead have to do, is to theory craft about the details of different kinds of situations, and let our faculty for self preservation, empathy, pain, fear, wants and needs and so on, as a collective, be the judge of whether a just so solution to a problem how how to act is right or wrong, if we all sat down, as in all humans on earth, and discussed every possible eventuality, every detail and every preference we hold as a body, we would come to a consensus after an infinite time weighing the evidence and discussing it, provided everyone had empathy and willingness to accommodate each other, and so on. The convergence of what is good and bad given infinite time to evaluate and agree upon the options, such that provided mistakes were always ironed out, we would reach the best possible way to treat each other, if anything is objective morality it is the result of such a process, not a process of pure logic, so Wittgenstein being right about the limitations of formal language is kind of secondary on this point i believe, in the same way that experiment and not formal proof is the ultimate test in physics, because the worød is the judge and not our axioms, in morality, the state of beings it applies to is the judge, not the formal logic. Anyway that is my hot take on why philosophical problems are not always language problems, because the meaning of the problems are not about language at all at its root, the problems of language games set limitations for defining andnsolving the problems formally but not the existence of the problems or solutions to them, even though the solutions need not have formal answers, because existence is not formal.
I've always been a big fan of Deutsch but he's definitely mistaken in his presumption that if most people were afraid to speak out against woke ideology at the workplace or school or anywhere else it takes hold, it would be the end of wokeness because everyone would speak out against it.
By now most people find themselves daily in environments where woke madness is de rigeur and most people know it and hate it but will only criticize it in private conversations.
I suspect the reason is that although most people hate woke ideology and think it's toxic and divisive, most people don't hold powerful positions and don't want to risk retribution.
It requires people in positions of authority to speak out, but they are typically unwilling to do so precisely because they're high on the totem pole and don't want to jeopardize their position.
And at the very top, the CEOs and such, they're concerned about their ESG rating and other social credit scoring systems and what the general public consequences would be for criticizing woke ideology and forbidding it or at least not requiring it in the workplace.
So a colossal spiral of silence emerges.
Also, no-one in authority wants to waste their time arguing with woke idiots.
@@liberality It wouldn't be a waste of time.
@@b.g.5869 In my experience, it has been. They aren't interested in discussion because they already know everything. It is worth talking to people who have been influenced by woke ideas but are still willing to think for themselves.
@@liberality We're talking about a person with the authority to tell them to pound sand; whether or not they change their mind is irrelevant.
Usually, unless the woke person is actually a member of the group they're pandering to, they don't actually believe the ideology anyway, they're just virtue signalling.
But if you're in a position of authority over a wokester and they approach you pitching a draw queen story hour in the break room or safe space break room hours when no whites are allowed in, you can tell them it ain't happening.
@@liberality Yes but we're talking about a person in a position of authority; they can tell their woke underlings to pound sand.
A religious zealot proselytizing in the workplace wouldn't be tolerated and the fact that their manager probably wouldn't be able to convince them by argument that their views are irrational but it's irrelevant; the proselytizing would cease or the zealot would be in hot water.
I wish there was a way to interject. With regard to the police mayor etc not doing their jobs. The police are MUCH more comfortable confronting law abiding citizens than criminals, so we've gotten to the point that the cops will go after the few good men who DO object to the lawlessness.