There's A New Browser (That ISN'T Chrome Based)
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- Ladybird is...interesting. Not my thing, but cool it exists. Wild to do this "from scratch" and I can respect it.
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ladybird.org/
social.treehouse.systems/@cas...
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S/O Ph4se0n3 for the awesome edit 🙏 - Наука та технологія
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"Guys why is this piece of PRE-ALPHA software slow and buggy?"
before y’all not watch the video and take these comments as gospel.
he literally said “i get that performance comes later and this pre-alpha dev build will be slower.” 10:46
he also explained that it should probably not be this slow to begin with, and improving performance later would be tough as opposed to starting with something simple and quick, accumulating some slowdown, and then later fixing that. 11:35
*pre-pre-alpha
Judging a pre-alpha software project poorly is such a frontend dev mode
Lol. These celebrities 😅
and complaining about politics of the project... wait before the project is finished before you try to destroy it
More like a designer feedback mode.
Nah bro there are many frontend devs that are respectful and supportive regardless of their skill level compared to others.
This is very much a Theo-end dev mode if anything
Typical Theo
Who else thinks Theo should take a break from the internet 😅
dude got but hurt first 5 min of video then proceeded to nit pick something in pre alpha
A permanent one
09:05 - Completely backwards take. Browsers are Not standards they are Implementations of the various standards that make up the web. Fewer competing standards is generally better - up to a point. More implementations of any given standard is generally better up to a point. You don't really know how 'standard' a standard is until you implement it this reveals the ambiguities in the standard that may need fixing. It can help to spot issues in how others have chosen to implement the standard / tooling around it allowing for improvement.
18:45 - This is exactly why having new implementations of standards matters if the standards aren't good enough that you can design these components well enough to work work largely independently the standards are not doing a good enough job of describing the system.
45:36 - Completely missing the point again - the spec is worthless if you can't implement it! You don't know if you can implement it until you do - the value of the implementation is in validating the spec
The point is some ways is not the browser it's the web standards and whether or not people are following them.
If you can't implement a new browser from scratch you have bad standards that people are not actually using which means you have ceded control to whatever the dominant implementation is and you are stuck with an fragile unhealthy monolithic single point of failure that if ripe for abuse by whomever controls it.
This was a frustrating watch seems like you kind of got the point by then end but still not why it's an important thing to do.
This was a very interesting comment to read, I couldnt articulate what bothered me, thanks!
The "made for Chrome" web is a poison and has been fundamentally undermining the concept of the "open web" for years and it's so good to have a project offering the ability to articulate what that actually means. Firefox has been too well-established and has too many of the quirks already built-in to properly expose that.
"usually things start fast and then get slow" is such a front-end thing to say. Andreas even addressed this in one of this videos. Its actually the opposite for low level software. Things start off slow but then get faster over the years as optimizations are added.
"Premature optimization is the source of all evil"
It's not. It's just a gross misunderstanding of what starting fast and getting slow means to different people.
There are 2 kinds of people: 1) people who think the 'start' is the first commit for the feature. 2) people who think the 'start' is before you do anything.
Type 1 would find the following ridiculous: "When you start a new project, it's the fastest it will ever be. There is no code. Run the code, it takes 0ns to complete. Blazingly fast!"
There isn't any code yet, so you haven't started. The baseline speed is not what it's running before you add the feature, it's how it runs after you first add the feature.
But that's exactly how type 2 people think the phrase is meant. Every new feature is a compute task of some kind, so no matter what you add you are always starting at the fastest it will ever run. The baseline speed is before a new feature is added. And everything you add is only going to make it slower, so you're starting fast, get slower, then get faster (but not fastest) again.
@@connorskudlarek8598 this is a weird attempt at trying to justify what theo said, by claiming everything is actually the fastest it will ever be because if you change an implementation its a whole different thing and so cant be said to be faster than what it was before.
By this logic we cant say anything is faster than anything.
Obviously thats a stupid way to look at it. If two "things" achieve the same desired goal, but one implementation has an optimization in it that makes it faster, then it makes perfect sense to say that its faster.
We generally constitute a "thing" by what it ends up achieving, not by how exactly it ends up achieving it.
@@DFsdf3443d "this is a weird attempt at trying to justify what theo said"
I don't agree.
"by claiming everything is actually the fastest it will ever be because if you change an implementation its a whole different thing and so cant be said to be faster than what it was before."
Not what I said. Try reading it once more and asking clarifying questions if you need.
"By this logic we cant say anything is faster than anything.
Obviously thats a stupid way to look at it. If two "things" achieve the same desired goal, but one implementation has an optimization in it that makes it faster, then it makes perfect sense to say that its faster.
We generally constitute a "thing" by what it ends up achieving, not by how exactly it ends up achieving it."
A point made without connecting to what I actually said.
@@DFsdf3443d some pre-emptive clarification for you: it's not about the speed of the feature, it's the fact the feature exists that your app gets slower.
Your app is fast, you add a feature. It gets slower. You realize your app is too slow after you've added 10 features. You optimize the features to make it faster, but not as fast as when it didn't have 10 extra features.
Start fast -> add features -> become slow -> optimize features -> become faster (but not as fast as you started).
Considering they are "targeting" an alpha release in 2 years, I'm surprised it can even render html
Exactly, that fact that the browser was even able to render Github and Twitch was honestly impressive! How could Theo overlook that?
The browser has been in development for 4-ish years so yeah
@@mikopikobecause he can do it better obviously
@@mikopiko I don't think he understands how much of a feat that is considering how early in development this project is. He is a web dev afterall
@@TheSuperBoyProject don't think so tbh lol
Wow not a single positive comment under this mess of a video 😂
rightfully so
I don't care what theo says, building a new browser engine is a huge take. Good luck to the ladybird team
Linux was made "Just For Fun" read the book!
Yeah GNU was created for the exact reasons Theo was saying, Linux was created so that Linus could learn how OS's work. It ended up that Linux just so happened to be the perfect Kernel for all the GNU components because HURD wasn't ready.
So that is actually a good example of how sometimes doing something for the hell of it can have unexpected benefits. Realistically the put different wrappers around Chrome is pretty over-saturated as it is - so unlikely to meaningfully iterate. But with this we get some entirely new learning about browser building and who knows a component from it may end up being really useful.
FreeBSD just hobbyist? - yet it supplies core components of MacOS, PlayStation, lots of Routers and NAS....
"because its hard you shouldn't do it" - Theo
He praised capitalism as a method to "give people what they want". You can tell his background - he's a CEO, of course he wants to make everything as easy as possible.
When you start managing people, their paychecks, and who pays the company, unless you're a very special person, you want everything easier. It's exhausting to constantly talk and beg other people to get them to do what you want. When people become CEOs, they do not want to think about what their business is doing anymore. They grow this corrupting mindset of "it's not my problem, get someone who's smarter than me to do it."
I'm not entirely blaming him or even saying his point is wrong. I am saying how managing people leads to the "not my problem, make it someone else's problem" mindset.
He's stuck in the world of "time consuming means it costs money."
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but to prove Theo wrong." - John F. Kennedy
breaking: pre-alpha product is not in a polished state. let's critique the f out of it and its performance!!
Also, I'm glad the devs go with the good software dev princible of "make it correct first, fast later", respecting "premature optimization is the root of all evil". Looks like someone still needs to learn this lesson.
This video is also in a pre-alpha state apparently.
REAL
before y’all not watch the video and take these comments as gospel.
he literally said “i get that performance comes later and this pre-alpha dev build will be slower.” 10:46
he also explained that it should probably not be this slow to begin with, and improving performance later would be tough as opposed to starting with something simple and quick, accumulating some slowdown, and then later fixing that. 11:35
@@hansdietrich1496i don’t know that they’re talking about performance optimization with that quote. i think it’s more about premature over-engineering. as theo said in the video, newer projects are typically simpler and faster, accumulate complexity and slow down a bit, at which point the bottlenecks can be addressed. 11:35 i think.
By not using chromium, the project cultivates a culture of having to maintain its own thing. Otherwise, there’s a future where all browser are just adtech or waiting for adtech to find security/bug fixes. This project is mostly a preservation project for an open web.
real, thats why we need stuff like this, just in case
I don't understand how Theo thinks it's perfectly okay that all but 1 working browsers are either controller by Google or Apple.
In my opinion, one of the worst Theo take of 2024.
"the thing that makes the most money does the most good" is so untrue I just spit my drink
things do NOT start out fast and get slow...unless youre comparing the hello world version to the early version.
the order is: Make it work -> make it right -> make it fast.
Red Green Refactor
Yeah exactly. This makes it seem like he's never programmed anything well.
In my projects it’s normally like that:
It’s fast.
As i add features it gets slower and slower.
In the end I make it faster.
@@irlshrek Unless your program is ICQ or MSN ;)
Things always start fast then get slower. You're starting at the wrong place in your process:
Have working project -> add feature (fix broken feature) -> realize feature is wrong (make feature right) -> realize feature made things slow (speed things up) -> have working project (repeat)
The start is not when making it work. That's when you slow the previously fast project down. The start is having a working project in the first place.
"Qt in general sucks" says the Javascript andy... holy hell.
qt sucks so bad that it's used in every embedded project i've seen
😂 damn this made me bursz out laughing, Nokia did everyone a solid here @@reidond
@@reidond Qt sucks so bad it powers my foss art application!
Qt sucks so bad it powers the entire KDE desktop environment even before it was open source
i dont get it. you seem to hype every ui library, which improves things in very minor ways, but you do a whole take down video of an ambitious browser project
Excellent point.
Yeah because if this browser is successful he might actually have to develop pages that work with it, and any browser that isn't Blink makes more work for him.
@@xerox13ster What are you even talking about
@@senseicodes They're referring to the idea that since this is a completely new browser engine, if it does gain traction in the mainstream (albeit this is a passion project), there will be more specific frontend code to write alongside Blink (Chromium), Gecko (Firefox), and WebKit (Safari).
The Linux take is just clearly wrong. Linus from the jump said it was just for fun to see how to make a kernel, like minix
People need to realize. Andreas started serenity OS as a project to break out of addiction.
Same was also true for ladybird when he just wanted a browser for his project.
He does it because he has fun doing it. I feel like the other stuff on foundation site is just flavoring.
Based
people liked the project so it got popular, with popularity often come haters...
TempleOS: Browser Edition
@@astral6749brutal 😂
what addiction? where i can read about that?
Not using things built for other browsers isn’t some arbitrary line in the sand. It’s a choice to not use something that’s effectively controlled by another browser, making you vulnerable to the whims and choices of that browser.
So click the "FORK" button and take full control of the 32 million lines of code that already work and do whatever the heck you want with it.
@@brockstanford7608 managing 32 mil loc long term is a huge additional responsibility. What's stopping someone else from saying "just fork another 32 mil loc project" and so on? Just because some work is available doesn't mean you must use it.
No need to add additional dependencies unless it's Really really needed
@@brockstanford7608 Or you can make your own implementation instead of rummaging through someone else's huge codebase
@@brockstanford7608 exactly. These guys really are drawing an arbitrary line
@@brockstanford7608that's a dumb take, it's easier to build it from scratch than to try to maintain and change 32 million of lines
Also considering that you would be forced to keep up with the patches from the main repo to close any vulnerabilities
Theo's takes on low-level stuff are just all around L, and sadly it always has been
Theo's head explodes the second anyone does anything he would have managed slightly differently. On this channel, there are 'opinions that align with theo's experience' and 'bad choices'. I don't know why people look up to him.
@@andrewrobinson2985 Exactly, He always has strong takes, I don't know if it is a Dunning-Kruger effect or that's the strategy to get the clicks.
After all, people usually think of the ones with the most opinions as knowledgeable.
Don't get me wrong he's probably an awesome developer in his own field, But it doesn't mean you can instantaneously start coming up with opinions, You are not a generative AI, you can actually fact-check and think.
average typescript tommy doesnt know anything other than web
What is an example of a low level take in this video that contributes to your reaction?
Is it necessarily bad to have a channel with strong opinions? I rather watch someone sharing their honest opinion rather than a people pleaser who panders to all sides, basically being neutral on everything thus being useless as a reference point
Man who's never built a browser speaks confidently about the best way to build a browser.
Theo using quantum trigonometry to make the worst possible takes again:
You remember a month ago when we were talking about "don't drive by PR random repos trying to feel like you're contributing? Don't PR nit-picky README changes?" And now Theo's take is "look how innocent this little PR was, and the maintainers said no! Unbelievable!"
this browser isn't based on Chromium, it's just based
My god you're such a front end dev and it shows.
thats what he wants you to think. hes compensating for his insecurities by being overly critical and then achieving a double win by being able to hide behind "im just a frontend dev" while also inflating his ego about being good at it.
Help me understand what's wrong with frontend devs... (may update my comment after finishing the video)
@@kennyfully88he is not mocking ‘front end devs’ he is trying to make a point out of how the person in the video doesn’t use the correct ‘terminologies’ to explain things. Well maybe he is a backend dev himself, but yeah he is pissed off with some thing😂 or just jealous. Difficult to understand by just the name, let ‘it’ reply and get in a fued with me and i’ll tell you more lol
@@kennyfully88 nothing. Its just theo
@@hamzasaleem1537 thank you for the explanation. Yes, I agree with you after fully watching the video.
Writing a web browser fully from scratch, sounds interesting and fun
18:09 - "Oh, that's so Skia!"
My brother in Christ, every Chromium browser uses Skia to render (nearly) everything, including text. lmao
He won't get it, lmao
I am starting to think your research is usually few seconds. What do you mean they don't know html/css? If you look, the image is positioned absolutely. So overflow can be intended and the image is dark + text white. No issue there.
Exactly. Just a few seconds in and I'm wondering what he means by "overflows text incorrectly" 😅. It could have been a design choice by the developers. I personally like it.
It looks really bad and comes off as intended behaviour
In creative-land land there are no bugs, only features
Gotta love ignoring the entire project to rant about some bug on something tangentially related. Not everything needs to be a product to be marketed
Very very few.
In this case it is worth to reinvent everything because V8 development is controlled by Google, SpiderMonkey by Mozilla and JSCore by Apple. JS engine is just as important as a display engine for HTML, and they're both part of the web spec. I largely disagree w/ Theo this video...
Even using Skia (Google owned) for drawing is a compromise so they could have a sane timeline, it would have to be replaced by something else as its development/features are driven mostly by Chrome requirements. It also has its own quirks and cases where it rasterizes incorrectly, which they're inheriting though this compromise.
You can't just fork a browser and rewrite parts of it because you end up having to patch/hack around assumptions other parts of the code make. You get quicker to 60%, but getting to the goal is much slower and harder that way - tried both; speaking from experience.
Exactly, it’s more work, but they don’t want to adopt something that will prioritize and optimize for another browser.
That "not reinventing the wheel" is exactly the mindset of a js developer (which Theo is). Npm installing and hacking together mountains of poorly made dependencies to make something barely functional.
And yet ironically enough, it's the js devs that try reinventing the wheel with a new framework now and then.
@@Dipj01holy hell was this said perfectly
But fundamentally there are a lot of "reinventions" or "reimplementations" that you can avoid, because of architecture choices. His point about long-term investment in something you don't know works is valid, and basically a primary concern when you want to make something that actually works, that actually competes on release and doesn't die of starvation like every other wishful project.
Even if if someone wanted to make a game engine, they wouldn't start from scratch. They'd get large chunks of architecture pre-made, focus work on core architecture relevant to the project, even using independence layers when you want to design bespoke interfaces to avoid "hacks", and then refactor downwards towards those frameworks and libraries to make them leaner and more optimized for the goals of the project. Plus, with FOSS you don't have to worry about what Google does to the libraries you use, only about how you can maintain them, which for a browser project was a necessity either way.
That's why using Skia was a generally good move, precisely so that their timeline is more sane. In the future, Skia can go, stay or be refactored and maintained.
@@Nina-cd2eh Browser and web spec are arguably even more complicated than game engines due to their broad scope. Writing a rasterizer from scratch requires 2/3 full time developers though, so I agree it's a good move.
Any competition is good when literally every major browser besides Firefox and Safari is Chromium.
The most unfortunate part is that it’ll do nothing to prevent JavaScript making every tab take up a gigabyte of RAM.
Show me a website where JavaScript takes up even close to a GB of RAM.
@@marcuss.abildskov7175 That's called hyperbole. But, I have my task manager open right now, and I have several tabs that are using over 100MB and a some over 300MB or 500MB. Not a clue what they are doing that needs so much RAM, but apparently something.
@@marcuss.abildskov7175the one im currently building professionally (its government software)
@@marcuss.abildskov7175 UA-cam/Twitch livestreams
@@marcuss.abildskov7175 you're already on this website. It happen to me once though
New day. New plethora of L takes from Theo
40:00 So why did Google reinvent the wheel then? Why did they develop Chrome from the ground up, when already existed an open source browser (Firefox)?
They did it because they had a specific plan in mind to reinvent the browser using a tab-based task manager for higher performance and more features.
They forked Safari's engine. Which kind of proves that you could be free of the original companies influence if you fork a project.
Google didn't reinvent the wheel. They forked an existing engine, and used their massive budget to turn it into an investment and business asset, which is now paying dividends for them.
@@benjaminkindle1841It takes a big corp to break free from a big corp though, so it stills kinda sucks tbh
If I had a js framework for every bad Theo take, I’d be living in 2024
dude is still hating on firefox, because some minor things nobody care
Been using Firefox, the experience has been great so far IMO. Idk what he dislikes about it.
@@Jae77Firefox takes longer to implement new web "standards" - and by standards, I mean: things Google just decided to push without going through any standardization process.
@@SkyyySi chrome just a ram hunger
I will always use Firefox because I don't want everything to be controlled by Google.
I wish FireFox would implement macOS features like Text Replacement (which I use all day long) and native spelling engine. the FRs have been on their bug logging systems for an about a decade. there's a couple of other things that stop me using FF as a daily browser. Every time I have to write in it it makes me sick.
It's very clear that you have never had the C mindset. That's a shame. There is a lot of great things that come from people that enjoy and want to build their own thing even though a similar thing already exists.
He comes from cushy JS land
in js if it's an npm package, you use it and dont even look at the source 🤫
@@39strifeWrong, you only use it if it's marked as deprecated.
ok, this video is full of stupid nitpicks bad takes D:
wtf
dude, it's pre-alpha 😩
I really think it's important to have an alternative web browser;
it's triopoly and chromium is winning by far!
nothing surprising for this channel
Pre-alpha web browser making good strides in doing the "impossible" and making an engine from scratch.
Fixes weren't accepted until meeting the code of conduct and their web page isnt 100% perfect so I guess we shouldn't even try.
This stuff is cool and you're all embarassing if you call yourself a technolgist and think otherwise just because you're strawmanning people who are spending years of their time providing software for free.
Maybe it'll not disrupt the whole browser market or whatever, but why shame people for making an interesting effort?
Theo, let them cook, bro. You just pulled the dev build--not a 1.0 release. They just said the release target (for non-normies) is in a long way away.
Go easy on 'em. They're building in public.
Not even dev build. Pre alpha dev build.
The dev wasnt even trying to have build step for prod, it's literally wip
Starting video from "he vs they" is kinda weird. They are making browser, not changing english.
He lives in California what do you expect
We expect tech overview, not his political vision 😕
“capitalism always serves the interest of people”
theo what are you yapping about
Theo was saying it was quite worrying that Figma couldn't be acquired by Adobe and also believed the EU's laws that limit AWS were bad for the industry until the prices went down lol.
If he was British he'd be a Tory member and one of the ones who voted Liz Truss. (removed £45 billion from taxes which caused inflation and interest rates to soar, and the economy has still not recovered)
that frustrates me lmao, how can you hand wave away the awful effects of advertising on anyone but facebook and google
He’s not wrong. Turns out the people just have shitty interests.
People don’t make what people don’t buy.
His not wrong, Marx said “ capitalism serves the interest of people, communism serves the necessities of people”
@@RA-xx4mz And that's why scammers and drug dealers make money. They sell a solution to an problem they convinced people have. Capitalism is great at selling solutions to problems it creates.
5 mins into the video all i can make up from this video is Theo trying to make another episode of "Kardashians for devs"
I'm a professional web dev myself and also had graphic design classes, and I legit have no idea what you mean with "text overflowing" and "not being very good with html and css" the website looks great
I think he means text overlapping images.
@@RandomGeometryDashStuff *nods* yup, theo doesn't like it when his peas touch his mashed potatoes.
@@xerox13sterwhat is "nods"?
9:03 i don't think this xkcd comic is applicable given the standard for the web isn't a specific browser
That's true, but you have to adapt your code to take into account different browsers as well (that used to be a major pain in the past or so I heard). So it still kind of applies.
@@hungrymusicwolf i've been a professional web dev since 2018 so no worrying about internet explorer or anything like that. i've only had a handful of times i had to fix a browser-specific bug (mostly css). the ladybird team is helping improve the standards and if they conform to them it shouldn't contribute to the "multiple standards" problem.
Yeah, the standardization community has put in great effort to have exactly one standard for the web to follow
True advocacy is antagonizing a non-native speaker for using the wrong pronoun.
"capitalism does a good job of prioritizing people" I've actually spat my coffee all over my table
Politics in tech is something that i'm tired of; stop mentioning it.
You didn't even include the statement they made regarding this situation.
This is a very bad intro in my opinion, please redo the research on this. :/
I bet he won't. It won't fit a narrative made in the video :)
Agreed.
I don't disagree with anything he said, but I was curious about a new browser, and 5 minutes in I'm getting a breakdown of politicized poor behaviour.
Not what I'm interested in, not why I clicked the video, and my attention span gave out before I got to the content, so now I'm dropping a comment and moving on. 🤷♂
Not sure why Theo approached this project with such hostility tbh. Were there preconceived notions before recording this segment? Idk. If the project says it's in pre-pre-alpha and its first hopeful alpha release is in 2026 then expectations should be set, no? The fact it can even read HTML is pretty damn impressive since remember ITS A BROWSER THEY'RE MAKING. More browsers and more importantly browsers engines being made are great. Competition is good, regardless of how Ladybird itself turns out. Let people create for the sake of creating. Odd video all around.
Ladybird is not a product. It's a fun project to work on. Your example of building a car from scratch, surely as an engineer you look at that and think "that sounds like a fun project, if only I had a team of people to help make that happen" that's ladybird
I’m old enough to have discovered GNU/Linux when people talked about “Free software” and the values it brought in terms of freedom, community and privacy, not necessarily more features. It seems like Theo is more into the Open Source camp who only value Free Software if it is better than proprietary software in certain areas.
not to hate but why is this guy the face of js development
Really shows you the kinds of people JS attracts
This could have been an interesting video contrasting Ladybird's current capabilities with Chromium, Firefox, and Safari with different showcase applications. This could have been an interesting video contrasting LibJS with V8, SpiderMonkey, JavaScriptCore, etc. You could have made some interesting content trying to break the browser in as many ways as possible for education / entertainment purposes. You could have had a thorough breakdown of how Ladybird functions under the hood by having a genuine discussion with one of the maintainers.
Unfortunately, you produced a video with an agenda in mind. One that's not interested in how browsers function on a low level, or how vast the W3C specs are, but rather an agenda that's focussed on condescension, surface-level judgement, and deconstructive criticism.
Throughout this video you've showcased that your opinion truly does not matter. You're so focussed on perception - how others perceive you, how you perceive others, what are and are not acceptable trains of thought, that you were incapable of producing quality software development orientated content.
Theo, I suspect more and more of your videos will continue to perform poorly either in the like / dislike ratio, or in the view count, as more of your lack of skills in various domains, coupled with truly bad takes, come to light. Software developers are interested in videos that nurture creativity, that push boundaries, that journal explorations. You have never produced anything that is nearly as technically demanding as SerenityOS, Ladybird, or LibJS. Most of the time you simply regurgitate content produced by others instead of bringing something novel to the table.
Do some homework. Freya Holmer, Sebastian Lague, and Daniel Shiffman produce content that fascinate and awe people without relying on virtue signalling as a crutch. Your gimmicks are running dry and the novelty has worn off.
bro completely forgot about DRM disaster google tried pushing last year ☠
and the advertising "keywords" thing that would have given them complete control of websites. Or the JpegXL issue where they tried to push their webp format exclusively. I guess there will many more until Chrome is the new IE6
Read the comments and bailed at 7mins. Literally any new browser is so good for the ecosystem. We need to champion efforts like this
I paused at 3:50 due to the gender grammar heat and read the comments to get a sense of the reaction, then bailed. Been back and forth on Theo for a while. I've watched maybe 10 vids, but after the regards here and another video where I don't remember anything about the video other than him saying other than "Duh. Obvious." on loop for most of it.
I can handle some negative energy if there's a relatively grounded truth or decent opinion inside of it, but I've seen too much of otherwise from him to not seek out other supposed techophiles in this space. Best (hypothetical) case: he's making quick judgements and reacting to suit the algo, and even that's too much for me in this context... but it seems much more than that. This channel just isn't for me.
I believe building a web browser from the ground up is precisely what we need, and I am very grateful that these people are making it happen, regardless of how long it takes or how difficult it may be. I will certainly be contributing.
I feel like you just saw the Ladybird browser mentioned on some orange site before making a video about it. I am happy seeing the comment section disagreeing with you on this instead of swallowing it blindly, reading the comments is satisfying. This video was a misstake, if you only looked at it from another angle, you'd be hella excited about the project and honestly, find it impressive.
you are talking like product manager, not programmer
If a grammatical fix is in a PR with titles and description that pertain to gender dynamics ("this doesn't cater to just men", etc) like - you can't fault the maintainers who in their native tongue don't understand these.
Contributors could just write "this is the grammatically appropriate pronoun to use in English as it generalizes an otherwise unknown actor" or something like that.
I find it hard to believe that the language in the PR was chosen accidentally as it clearly broadcasts the intent ("outdate male specific language"
In Swedish ".. similarly to English, people are referred to by different pronouns: han (he) and hon (she)."
As someone who makes the same grammar mistakes in english, this take of Theo made me literally scream.
NO WONDER THE PR TITLED "grammar mistakes" got merged. Shouldn't that be obvious even for english native speakers???
Best part is that it wasn't even a grammatical error. It's perfectly acceptable to pick a gender for your hypothetical programmer in English. Someone just didn't like the gender.
In design-academia, we have this convention/tradition that pops up, where a hypothetical designer is always a "she" by default. I have never heard of anyone taking issue with this.
@@NorthernRealmJackal +1. I wouldn't even say "pick a gender". "He" has had a gender ambiguous usage for centuries. It's better than "they" which adds plural/singular ambiguity, which generally is a more semantically problematic form of ambiguity than gender ambiguity.
Yeah. I do think the documentation should use gender-neutral language. But I also think the title and description were politicized and preachy. So I can understand why the maintainers rejected them.
This video is a prime example of why web devs opinions don't matter.
They use the technology that real programmers create but don't want people to advance said technology by remaking and improving the tech. They also keep the industry stagnant and slow down performance by not acknowledging the underlying hardware that software runs on.
@@tbkswagg Fair enough; It's just hard to take web devs seriously when every web dev that I've heard/read an opinion from is just wrong.
If you have a differing take to most web devs; this may be a sign to start making talking head videos of your own to skew the data in favor of good web devs.
Not the first time Theo embarrasses himself and shows how delusional and lacking any ambition he is. but one of the more fun ones indeed
Got to know Theo from watching Prime. But this guy has such awful takes. Cannot think outside his Frontend Andy perspective. Finally unsubbed.
He blocked me on Twitter. Lmao, what a joke.
You don't use other browser code because you are writing your own browser. Why is that so bewildering?
Qt sucks? You take that back, Mac fanboy!
ImGui ftw sry
Qt sucks though, especially its licenses.
@@bap9394unfortunately no one implements it correctly so 90% of ImGui apps end up having awful dpi scaling on my 4K monitors
@@velitasaliI mean it’s lgpl so you can pretty much do whatever you want as long as you aren’t statically linking
We know gtk is way better, even Firefox decided to use it right? Lmao
LadyBird recently got hit with a huge wave of negative attention by an organized group of people with bad intentions trying to take the project down. It's a shame to see that it worked well enough for Theo to fall for it. Thought he was smarter than that.
I think that’s what happened here, which lead into an antagonistic mindset about the project from the start.
Nitpicking apart irrelevant surface details, barely touching on anything technical, no mention of the significant progress that has already been made etc.
I can't get over how petty it is that you personally attack the ladybird people over a website that doesn't adhere to your personal sense of aesthetics, just because of a completely unrelated issue...
Interested to know what's wrong with Qt? I use PyQt6 on windows a bunch
I'm teaching Qt on my UA-cam channel, and i promise that it's really good for developing small-medium sized apps.
@@ArnabJhaYT Davinci Resolve?
it's not based on React; so some people probably consider it cursed. SMH.
I never used it but it was always a pain to get it running/compiled. Like I'm not fond of the days where I had to make QT work in order to get a headless browser for CI, it's much less painful now without QT dependency. It was painful on Linux but it was triple that pain on macOS (or OS X it was then)
@@chaosmagican Strange ive compiled tons of my Qt apps in windows, one terminal command and i have a .exe
The moment I saw you judge a broswer/team by an AI generated Notebook picture, I knew this video is going to be an absolute waste of time
what the f is this video
The fact that the "grammar fixes" PR was merged shows what an apolitical change WOULD HAVE looked like. The criticism of "gender neutral" is valid, because there WAS a right way to do it, and ultimately the right way was enacted. Just because it was similar to the wrong way doesn't mean both approaches were apolitical.
I don't think the first PR had political intent though, I think it just came off like that considering the maintainers are not native English speakers, which isn't the fault of the maintainers either. I'd say a misconception occurred.
@@brentboymebob8754 The maintainers wrote perfectly correct grammar though. I don't know if the authors of the original PR knew they were taking political action, since many are so steeped in it, intentionally or otherwise, that they cease to imagine acting any other way, but it was political in the end.
@@brentboymebob8754 The title of the first PR was definitely political, it specifically states "outdated".
None of what you said about their web site is a valid criticism
Their text literally overflow a picture and they are trying to rebuild the entire web from scratch.
@@user-fr2fm3ri3w It's a harmless layering where you can still read the text fine for a project that isn't even going to be in alpha yet for years. Calm yourself.
@@user-fr2fm3ri3w yt is probably gonna delete this reply.
I think it's intentional. It looks cool and the text is readable. And it's responsive for portrait viewport. Keeping things simple is a good thing
@@CoolestPossibleName Yeah, it may very well be intentional (though some CSS shadows might make it look even better). That said, their AI-generated laptop image could very easily be a 3D render, but I totally understand if none of the maintainers specialize in that sort of thing.
@@user-fr2fm3ri3wso you think the engineers behind the JS Engine are building the landing page? Dummy
phenomenal amount of L takes
One of the worst videos yet, possibly the worst.
A lot of bad faith ranting recently
but important to share the opinion
Such as?
@@blueghost3649 The pronoun thing at the beginning is an L take from everyone. The guy who initially changed he -> they tried to paint it as if the reason it's grammaticaly incorrect is because of gender, when in reality it's because "he" refered to a a user's account, not the account itself, and so it should've been he -> it. This is further evident because the later "grammar fixes" part not only fixed it correctly, but also fixed OTHER similar errors in the files. It's very obvious what happened, a far leftist was reading through the code, saw the usage of "he", immediately stopped reading and pushed a "fix". Then to top it off, wrote the commit condescendingly saying it's a minor thing and you shouldn't think about closing it because why do you care so much?
The maintainer isn't faultless either, he's good at english but he made a mistake, then got furious when he saw someone trying to use it for a political purpose. He took it too far, but 3:34 is still a reasonable response IMO. It literally tells you to submit grammatical fixes without any agenda, hence why the later commit was merged.
And Theo comes and says the maintainer isn't good at english, which is obviously not true if you read the message. The guy expresses himself just fine, he just made a mistake and thought the user's account gender would be the same as the user. Then he says the maintainer has a poor understanding of politics, which I already explained why it's not above, but that could just be a mistake on his part so whatever. Then he says maintainer did it to have a platform to spread bullshit... seriously? That's an insane accusation founded on almost nothing and contradicted by everything I already said. The guy said he didn't want ANY politics and accepted the grammer fix commits and when they didn't come from a political background.
They had JIT, but removed it, cause of security concerns
How is Firefox a "nightmare"? I've been using it for the last 8 years and have found it to be great. It's ahead on performance for my use cases, is more standards-compliant and is much better for people who want privacy-focused and ad-blocking plugins. It's also WAYYY easier to reskin and customize. IMO Chrome is basically the equivalent of IIS and Firefox is Ubuntu.
I am working with webrtc and there are a lot of quirks and slowdowns in firefox in my experience. Considering theo worked for twitch this may be one of the reasons.
Andreas addressed this he/they thing and said that Ladybird and Serenity are a pure technical project and he will not accept commits that are to be considered ideologically based on the project. Also he stated that those changes will probably get merged if the author has more maturity in the project itself.
I can see both sides of that. I do think the documentation should use gender-neutral language. But those submissions did aapear to come with scolding and preachy comments attached.
This might be one of the worst videos I have seen by Theo, didn’t need to be this long, bad takes, and the browser is bad with a lot of bad ideas. I believe Theo should go back to before he started just loving whatever drops next.
he/him is the original pronoun in the English language when the gender is unknown, but because this pronoun is masculine and potentially promotes gender inequality, the 'Singular they' has become the pronoun of choice.
Avg theo vid: basically re-reading a blog post or ranting with an L take.
Seeing as it got merged when it was about grammar fixes, it was indeed politics. And, like it or not, these seemingly nonsense things are currently politics and loaded with political intent in the current political landscape in the United States.
It got way worse. They accused the dev of human slavery. The guy's right, stop these people coming in because they will derail everything and contribute nothing of value. ua-cam.com/video/HWed9QOKTMM/v-deo.html
I can see both sides of that argument. I do think the documentation should use gender-neutral language. But the summaries did also seem preachy, critical, and unnecessarily politicized.
"capitalism does a pretty solid job of putting people first" alrighty
Yea that was a surprisingly backwards take
I did a double take on that lmao. He's a bit out of touch.
God i hate webdevs
The controversy highlighted in the beginning of the video brings up an interesting point about how the tone of the PR can affect the end result. The exact same diff gets rejected if it is perceived as annoying, but can be accepted if it's perceived as helpful and respectful.
Sorry, nitpicking a browser, made in good faith mind you, for rendering the web "wrong" all while they clearly said it's pre-alpha and expected alpha optimistically is in 2026, is absolutely cringe.
This is bad content, Theo.
I think it's a good demonstration to show why rebuilding every single piece of technology from scratch is a bad idea. Ladybird is a fork of SerenityOS which has over a thousand contributors and has been going for 6+ years now. They would be far past these basic issues if they used something like webkit.
@@Ibbysz what makes it a bad idea? to what metrics? money? performance? usefulness?
and so what if right now, ladybird renders github wrong and has bad performance? not allowing ppl doing it? dogpiling it? laughing that they tried it at all like theo here?
today is the worst it will ever be, and right now it renders website, even if it's wrong. a year from now it can only be better, even if marginally.
And then we have options now, regardless the source of the reason that options need to exists, it being exists is already net positive.
@@Ibbysz How long was Chrome in development internally before it was released? Ladybird has only been in development for ~2 years and they have made huge progress.
@@Ibbysz this is just as bad a take.
@@muhwyndham Development time, bugs, Compatibility, Security, Performance, Accessibility features (ARIA), etc. Their entire mantra is to steer away from google's control but they use Skia, which is google owned and maintained. Drawing random lines to not use certain technologies is arbitrary.
Obviously the PR titled "Grammar mistakes" got merged because it was the first PR that explained the problem without being political though... Or am i dumb?
Btw. I make the same mistakes because im not fluent in english
That's right, but you know, North Americans.
always taking his crazy ideas everywhere
Don't worry about it, it's not a grammatical mistake unless you look at writing newer than 2010.
Despite what Theo said, the first PR was *totally* political. I respect the reviewers and Theo looks like a snowflake for bringing this up and distort what happened.
9:35 I actually really like skeuomorphic design, so that’s great. Admittedly, this is not the best implementation of it, but please. Not everything needs to be simplified and flattened into oblivion.
All i can take from this is that twitch had just enough not invented here syndrome to leave him traumatized and fixated on the short term product team type of aproaching anything.
The grammar thing was never controversial, NEVER. Not until someone went out of their way to point it out a few days ago... on a PR from THREE YEARS ago.
Honestly, I can't stand this nonsense. It's obvious what they're doing to poor Kling, and I don't like it.
here we go misaka mikoto
I heard about that last night and it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard related to coding in my entire life. I thought it was a joke at first. This is nothing more than some extreme stretching and twisting to pretend they've solved some conspiracy that doesn't exist. This reminds me of the time when that one kid tried to start the thing about the phrase "sanity check" being somehow offensive to people with mental health issues... which, as someone who's been institutionalized a dozen times for mental health issues, was the stupidest thing I'd ever heard related to coding in my entire life, at the time. I think this one might be #1 now. Some person trying to be offended on my behalf is infinitely more offensive than the thing itself could ever be.
notice your correct use of 'they' here signifying a group of people rather than a single one.
Changin he to they in a tooltip implies more than just "progressive language' but that the thing explained affects more than one iser, which is just factually incorrect.
Even all EULA out there apart from a new disclaimer on top that they dont discriminate will use masculine writing throughout to keep a clear and concise language. 😂
Something really crazy is happening in the minds of North Americans, those people with dyed hair are the worst thing about their culture.
The wording though…
I dont think Theo is being fair with this tbh,the goal is to replace the major parts of the browser like the engine so as to prevent dependance on one source,which in itself is a good goal
That being said,they surely cant be expected to replace every single detail from scratch and the project is still in its early days,dont hold it to mature browser standards like chrome and expect it to be better,then bash on it when it isnt
Also,the website looks pretty great and the text was set to overflow,a minor error but the whole site definitely doesn't show incompetence🤔
Bro, did you never build a browser from source ? wtf are you so suprised about that it takes 100% of your cpu
"Frontend developer learns what compiling is"
This guy doesn't use compiled languages... rust analyzer indexing my project when i first open uses 100% of my cpu lmao...
4:13 I may be controversial, but i agree with them, not you. Idk if there was some rules about sending requests, but I personally think its better to name it 'grammar issue' or fix or something, rather than 'gender fix' or something - its more accurate and tolerant for all.
PS. I am not native speaker/writer.
but that's what it technically is - gendered language, which isn't proper English grammar used in professional environments, singular "they" has been the correct way for decades. The fact the maintainers are making it political for no reason just shows their biases.
@@nikkehtineThe word "they" is not singular. You've been indoctrinated.
@@sqlexpsingular they has been around longer than singular it
@@nikkehtine "They" for singular sounds dumb as hell if you aren't referring to a person in most languages.
@@nikkehtine The fact that the guy who originally changed he to they not only fixed it incorrectly but also labeled it as a gender issue and told the maintainers "erm, not everyrone who uses the browser is a male" shows the their biases. Maintainers said they want nothing to do with politics, and the fact that the maintainers accepted that same grammar fix when it obviously wasn't political proves that.
Love Theo, but this one was tough to watch
I don't understand your attitude towards the PRs. The point they were making is that hte language being used "outdated" etc - is ideological. It is an ideological belief that you need to have inclusive language and that this matters. Which is why when it was framed as "grammatical" it was not a problem....pretending that this doesn't exist in this context is a strange stance to take to be honest. You may not think it is a problem, I don't - but we are not the only people in the universe and inclusivity, which is important, means not bringing those things to a PR...why is that hard to understand?
It was a problem. You can tell by the insane reaction to this now. The accused the dev of human slavery,. transphobia and are trying everything to get it all cancelled. The dev has said he's inclusive, anybody is welcome as long as they do the technical work. And that caused the "pro inclusive" crowd to kick off damning him for not being pro-inclusive *enough*. It is currently madness. ua-cam.com/video/HWed9QOKTMM/v-deo.html
In this video - person who only creates for money critiques people creating for passion/ to satisfy their principles. L.
To be fair, the creator of the pr changing "he" to "they" could have phrased it to be more focused about the grammar being fixed, since the SerenityOS and Ladybird projects have it very clearly stated that there should be no politics at all in the discussion of the projects, so when they saw a PR that could be interpreted it as political they probably just denied it instantly without looking into it. It's not that it's politics they disagree with, it's that they don't want anything that could be interpreted as politics to be a part of the discussion.
to give them credit ARC website just crashes entire browser so they are at least better than people who call themselves browser company
standard != implementation
Chromium is not a standard, it is an implementation of a web browser. I cannot believe people are defending that particular implementation when they ship with property binary and for that reason only works on mainstream platforms and pushing DRM for web. Not to mention manifest v3.
Someone will actually be totally nuts if they are going to make a new standard that uses Lua as the scripting language, JSON as UI description, and TOML to theme it. But that's not what we are talking about isn't it?
pre-alpha takes.
The best way to improve web is to drop js entirely
yes
Replace it with native HTMX support
@@SwampKryakwatime to do another side project
15:31 nope, they forked out of serenity OS because they realized the task of writing a browser is as complicated as writing a full operating system. The development of serenity was completely overtaken by ladybird, so they were not having time to focus on other aspects of the OS other than the browser.
Jeez, they made it very clear, how deep is your research?
I wish this project the best. We need more competition in the browser engine space. Using Firefox right now and it's good and I like it, but another major reason is because I don't want Chromium based browsers to fully devour the web.
It's a lot of work and all that, but I'm cheering for them.
EDIT:
I don't think the xkcd about standards is applicable here. They aren't making a new standard, the are making a browser engine which intends to follow the existing web standards.
The point is not trusting code developed by an advertising company's monopoly of funding, specifically for their purposes. That does involve reinventing the wheel, because the current wheel keeps trying to track drivers.
Sometimes, you can be quite insightful. this was not one of those times. I actually watched the original live-stream and you were quite uninformed about the project as a whole: but never let facts get in the way of clicks, amiright!
To dedicate over an hour to dunk on a project you clearly have no appreciation for, was at times, approaching maximum cringe...and all from the comfort of your lofty tower of having created a slightly less sh!t clone of S3.
History is full of people who climbed that mountain for no other reason than because it was there. Similarly, some of the worlds greatest discovery have been the result of happy accidents. SerenityOS and Ladybird and both audacious and ambitious projects and I tip my hat to you all