What Makes a Good King? How Tywin Lannister Is A Strategic Grandfather
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- Опубліковано 9 тра 2024
- In this short essay, I narrate some thoughts on a particularly interesting scene with Tywin Lannister, "What Makes A Good King?" I don't own GoT; this video qualifies as fair use.
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I think, in this scene, Tywin legitimately and truthfully wants to make Tommen the best King Tommen could be.
If Tywin and Tommen had lived then he would have definitely built Tommen into the best king there had ever been. I think at this point he had given up on his children so he wanted his legacy to live on through Tommen
Tywin and Tommen could have been the lesser of two evils
Agreed, but he still wanted to accomplish that by manipulating Tommen
@@VVV953 probably lowest of most if not all evils
@@lkaseru I don’t think it really is though, I don’t see Tywin as being evil at all. He’s a intelligent man who’s living in a ruthless world. He doesn’t take joy in killing he just does what he thinks he has to for his family to survive in this game of power. But Tywin would only be more of the same, the same system that has the realm constantly squabbling and fighting over power. Just look what happens when he dies, it creates a immediate power vacuum and everything goes to shit. No one is there to check the family and keep the other powerful families in fear. Change was what the realm really needed and unfortunately true change on a grand scale never comes without bloodshed on a massive scale. As Littlefinger said chaos is a ladder, and through the chaos of the wars for the throne a slightly better system was introduced.
Not once during this scene does Tywin tell Tommen that he is wrong. He first acknowledges and approves each of Tommen's answers as having some merit, and only then does he masterfully offer a counterpoint in the form of a failed past king.
Yes! Excellent way to not alienate the kid while still being instructive.
@@arcaneprince it’s not supposed to be instructive. But rather manipulative
Ten times better than my school teachers who constantly demean me
Yeah he's wanting to make Tommen enthusiastic so he is more responsive to counsel
@@janosvymer5953 It can be both you know.
However, Tywin failed the wisdom test. He allowed his resentment and hatred of Tyrion to overcome any rational approach to support his family's interests and he failed to stop Joffrey killing Ed Stark and triggering a civil war. That's the genius of the writing by the author.
Another reason why Tywin isn't harsh and domineering with Tommen is because he doesn't need to be. Tywin is normally up against people who are just as arrogant and power-hungry as he is, but now he is up against a shy little boy who views Tywin with unquestioning authority. Dominance is already established, so all Tywin has to do is show Tommen that he can be trusted.
But he failed to teach him that not everyone can or should be trusted
@@ColeArmstrongSF well I think he was trying to express that when he shared the story about the just king who was murdered by his own brother
@@ColeArmstrongSFhe would have succeeded if he did not die
great point
@@tomdanks3427Maybe he died because he didn’t succeed. Tommen took one look at the consequences of his actions (or rather inaction) and realized what was happening was because of the course of events he played a role in, and the weight crushed him.
Whoever cast Charles Dance as Tywin Lannister deserve an award.
I'm pretty sure George was the one who recommended Dance for the role
D & D... hate them all you want but they were taking Ws before the final seasons
@@htvtc21 the casting directors chose charles dance. Not d&d. They probably gave the final approval but after the casting directors recommend charles dance, it doesnt require much talent or skill to see that he is the perfect choice for tywins role
@@shawnjames3242 the final decision is the most important decision, your hate for D&D clouds your judgement for something which is so simple to understand. you may as well as just say D&D never ran the show or contributed anything it was just the rest of crew & cast. yall arguments just to go against D&D are so dumb.
Tich Chigorimbo I think what was so infuriating was that they no longer cared about the writing and characters in season 7 & 8. Post-Season 4 wasn’t perfect but they were at least trying. A lot people hate them because they were once good until they couldn’t give a damn anymore. A lot of anger and hate towards them because they once cared and then they don’t. What’s worse was that they stopped caring at the very final season of a series of eight years.
Tommen is his one chance to finally mold a competent heir to his legacy.
From Tywins pov I agree with you. Tyrion was the ready made package but he came a bit short so....
@@lastbaratheon8043 lmao
Was
Was*
@@succulentchinesemeals you probably just spoiled it for this guy
The way he says, "Yesss" when Tommen says wisdom is brilliant. It conveys so much relief and pride. Pride that his grandson got it right the first time, and relief that this grandson isn't like the last.
He says yes that way because he was leading him down that road. Everything was a perfectly orchestrated play.
He knew Tommen only had about 5 answers he could legitimately give, with wisdom (the "correct" one) eventually being stumbled upon.
@@Malthizar no
@@Malthizar call me stupid but even after watching this scene years ago I couldn't remember or get the right answer even with Tywin's leading. Either I'm very stupid or Tommen is smarter than you're giving him credit
@@cobaltjay9862 It's a question that is present in nearly every fantasy story, with each writer/character giving their own answer. But it usually comes down to wisdom. Strenght without wisdom is barbarism, good without wisdom is naivete, faith without wisdom is fanaticism. If it's a question you never thought about, I wouldn't call that stupidity. But I do wonder why you never thought about it, because it's a question that is relevant even in our world. What would make a good president?
Aside from the fact that there's no possible way Tommen could've been anything but a fuckin potato, as the product of a brother and sister. One of my cousins is the product of a father and daughter, and I wouldn't trust her to tie her own shoes. She's nice, and she's not an invalid, but I've seen lemmings with more going on upstairs.
I love the utter disdain in Tywin’s voice when he mentions that Robert only attended 3 small council meetings as King.
I also find it fascinating that he refers to Robert as "king Robert" and not "your father"
@@evanl8656 that's because he probably knew the true parentage but chose to overlook it because of the scandal it would cause.
@@rykoshuxero he did seem genuinely shocked when cersei told him, but maybe i misunderstood
This shows how little Tywin understands politics.
During the Ming Dynasty of China, a famous emperor NEVER went to those councils for decades and the system was running fine.
@@user-nw5te4mo1q and your take away is that a nation runs best when the highest authority is ignorant to what's going on?
"Boy I hate hearing my own voice after Charles Dance" don't we all brother
Wait, who said that?
@@anaionescu8913 ...the guy in the video?
@@anaionescu8913 Jesus you make me worry about humanity
Even as a girl I get that xD
Well, I mean, Jason Isaacs exists, so surely we don't _all_ hate our own voices after hearing Charles Dance.
That's what I like about Tywin as cold and cruel as he can be he still treats his grandkids better than his actual children like a typical grandpa lol.
Well, one of his sons is viewed as a dwarf freak that killed the only person he loved during child birth, his other son swore to be King's Guard so nullifying all chances of continuing the Lannister legacy (and also breaks his life-long vow to his king and commits incest with his sister) and his daughter is a maniacal, manipulative, power-hungry, jealous and emotionally unstable dumpster fire. Can't really blame him when you put yourself in his shoes.
He was brilliant and stern... but fair. He was only cruel to his enemies..
Aside from Tyrion of course... the one thing that he was irrational about his distaste for his own son. It cost him in the end.
cold and cruel..... not likely. the man was exceedingly pragmatic. he made his bones making his family's name respected, and has 2 of the worst psychpaths completely under control. one of the best characters in ASoIAF. the only mistake he made was mistreat Tyrion. no one's perfect after all :3
He did what needed to be done. I wanted him on the throne.
TACTICAL GRANDFATHER INCOMING
Tywin is the grandfather everyone wants but the father nobody wants. He was cold and hard on his children to better his household but with his grandchildren or even Arya he shows patience, a sense of humor, playfulness, and a soft charm that shows how human he can be. Its either the man he wishes he could have been to his children showing itself to youth as he grows older OR he is truly a master manipulator that knows exactly how to manipulate anyone of any age. Either way its scary impressive.
It's probably because he is mostly disappointed with his own children and thus rarely shows any positive feelings towards them. Jaime made poor life decisions in his eyes (becoming a "glorified bodyguard", not a true heir to the family), Cersei is blinded with her own arrogance, despite being a smart and capable person ("I don't distrust you because you're a woman, I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are") and Tyrion, being a dwarf and a witty free-thinker who doesn't give a damn about "living for the family", is definitely not an ideal son in Tywin's eyes.
@@artinaam And yet Tywin was able to recognize that Tyrion is no fool and asked him to serve as hand of the king. Tywin is no fool either. He's able to set aside his disdain when he recognizes good qualities in people.
The Tywin-Aria scenes are my favorite of the whole series. I was so disappointed they weren't in the book :(
@@Em-ih5du Tbh I always thought the move of sending Tyrion to act as hand was a bit more of a cunning political maneuver than just that he trusted his son. What seems more likely to me is that Tywin could predict the unrest that would grow in Kings Landing as the war worsened, and probably wanted to shield himself some from the political backlash that would come with being hand during such bad times. By sending Tyrion, he allows himself to focus on the war, while also using Tyrion as a PR shield to take the peoples ire, as the hand responsible for the cities woes in their eyes.
Lord Twyinn ~
Charles Damce ~
Almost A Perfection Of A Role Almost surreal Indeed Of A finer Lordship
Warrior,
Gemtleman,
Liege,
Master,
perhaps, someOftheWisest! May Prevail🗡️ ❤️🗡️
Tywin was actually a good teacher of children. Just see the scenes between him and Arya as well as his telling the story of teaching Jamie to read even when the Maesters could not. He is a quite good instructor that teaches young people the way the world is
Yes, he is basically THE archetype for paternal insight - stern, instructive, critical, strong. Good thought!
And this scene, honestly, is the one where he acts bar none the most grandfatherly in his own way. Besides Arya, Tommen is definitely the character he is nicest to.
@El Lorenzo couldn't have been much fun for Tywin, either. And in the end, he got results out of Jaimie that the maesters did not. I taught my sons to read when they were little. My sons were not dyslexic, but I learned that teaching is a skill set that requires patience.
@El Lorenzo what are you talking about? Maybe from where you are but things are different in America and Western Europe. Girls have all the opportunities to learn how to read and become knowledgeable and educated in any field of their choosing.
@El Lorenzo where are you from?
"I'm not trying to trick you" is such a good line for Tywin to put Tommen at ease and help him remember that he is still Tywin's grandson.
Rather it speaks to his own reputation, that Tommen is afraid of this.
@@Gunleaver thats true, never thought of it that way.
Aye
Delivery is key
And his line delivery is very warm. I think Tywin likes kids because he is similarly warm to Arya while she’s under disguise. Kids have no ulterior motives, no guile. He can let his guard down a bit with them.
Having Tywin Lannister give you the birds and the bees talk surely would be an unique experience.
Any Tywin hater who says Tywin is not a genius is because he's a genius.
That “YESSS” might have just been the happiest we ever saw Tywin. His excitement to have a competent ruler on the throne is heartwarming
That's one of my favorite feelings, when one of my students gives exactly the answer I was looking for, without me having had to give them any but the tiniest of nudges in the right direction.
That was manipulation
@@miquebts Every interaction you have with another human where you want them to do something, involves manipulation to one degree or another.
@@SRosenberg203 the point is that he fooled the kid and the guy who posted the first comment, he wasn't happy, he was just playing a role to manipulate
He was not giving competent advice. He was gaslighting Tommen into believing he needed to do whatever Tywin said. If Tommen is old enough to physically perform a sex act, he is very close to the age where he will rule in his own right, and Tywin wants him to think he will still have to listen to him. If Tommen doesn't want to listen to Tywin, he can always find people who will be happy to take Tywin out for the chance at royal favor. Edward III basically carried out a coup against his regent, his own mother, at a similar age to Tommen, by finding people who wanted to be in the good graces of the guy who would be ruling the country for the next 50 years.
Tywin shoots down all of Tommen's ideas about good qualities, because they are things Tommen can get without him. Tommen can act strong without Tywin, and might take strength to mean "do it myself instead of asking for help like a weakling". Tommen can be holy without him, and striving for holiness means he would listen to religious authorities instead of Tywin. Tommen can be just without Tywin, he can listen to his own conscience and read the laws. What Tywin is aiming for is convincing Tommen that he NEEDS to listen to Tywin, that listening to other people is the most desirable attribute. He says "wisdom" and Tywin spins "wisdom" to mean doing what people who are wiser say.
The YESSS is to encourage, via positive reinforcement, Tommen to please Tywin, by acting impressed and validating him when he gives the answer Tywin wants. It is because Tommen finally hit on a quality Tywin could spin to illustrate that he, Tywin, should continue to call the shots, even though he has only come as far as he has thanks to a lot of good luck, and he was getting his ass kicked by a kid fighting his first war, and his golden children did a lot of put the Lannisters in a spotty starting position, and they are relying heavily on the Tyrells for money and manpower, to the extent that an old woman of House Tyrell can talk shit to his face.
I think the interesting thing about the scene where Tywin advises Tommen about what makes a good king is that Tommen unfortunately becomes another example of a king whose positive character trait became his personal downfall.
Baelor the Blessed fasted himself to death because of his devotion.
Orys I. was murdered by his brother because he didn’t see the evil in front of him.
Robert was strong but not interested in ruling.
And Tommen, aspiring to be a wise king, listened to and counted on so many advisors, councilors and experts that he ended up barely making any own choices and was controlled and played by people who had their own interests in mind.
Quite insightful. I hadn't thought of that.
Unfortunate, but not a wrong move by Tommen. His best advisor was killed and the rest were incompetent
@Alvi Syahri tywin isn't an idiot he knows he's old but there's a world of difference between him dying while tommem is a kid who doesn't have s clue what to do and dying later after imparting as much wisdom and experience as he could tyrion ruined that but then again tywin ruined tyrion so i guess he had it coming
The fuck is orys the 1st
The one statment he failed to make was that «a wise king learns to tell the difference between good advice from bad»
One small detail from Tywin and Tommen is that when Joffrey was being poisoned, Tywin immediately ran to cover Tommen's eyes to shield him from the horrors
where is it said?
@@ChristianSandviknes Thank you!
@@user-ok3xt6mq5g No problem!
Good catch! At 2:25, you can see in the background Tywin covering Tommen's eyes!!
I never caught that!
also remember that Tywin made up King Orys 1. the Gaslighting is crazy
1:47
Tywin: "He was murdered in his sleep by his own brother."
Tommen: "I think I'm safe from that danger."
Yeah I'm so nice who would want to kill me
@@tommenbaratheon3612 didn't you get killed by lord karlstark . Looked like you
@@michaelflood2622 n o
Tywin's response: Ah but that is where you misunderstand, think carefully; if one's own brother, one's own blood, is capable of thrusting a cold blade into your heart at an opportune moment, then why believe that any servant, or guard, or councillor would be unwilling to do the same. Its not just about watching one's family Tommen, its about being conscientious in every interaction.
@@tommenbaratheon3612 In another life-a German soldier.
Tommen would've been a great king with Margaery beside him as his wife and Tywin as his advisor. Cersei was the problem. If they'd sent her away the moment Tommen was crowned and married, things might have ended differently and on a much better note for all of them. Like Tywin said in the show, Cersei isn't as smart as she believes she is, and she was a hindrance to her family and her children not a help or an asset to them.
Tywin did try, he just died before he could
@@thepredator9002 True.
@@thepredator9002
His Sins finally caught up to him in the end
I don't think so, no offence. He would have meant well, but he would have tried to be a friend to everybody and enemy to no-one. He was just too nice and too soft, the schemes and machinations by nobles at court would have eaten him alive. Tommen would have made a great Maester, but a King...I think the only way he could become competent at that is if he experienced alot of misfortune and hardship and it hardened his character somewhat. Tommen is basically Tytos Lannister all over again.
@@keighlancoe5933 I don't agree with you, but you're entitled to your opinion. Most young children are naive and well meaning. In time Tommen would've wisened up to the way the world is, especially with Tywin and Margaery by his side to guide him and to show him how people really were. Children are not born with common sense. They must be taught and Cersei had little to do with her two younger children because she was doting over Joffrey. Never mistake kindess for weakness. Tommen needed time to grow and learn, but he didn't get it because of self-serving embaciles like Cersei who actually thought they knew what was best for the realm.
Only thing woulda made it better would have been tywin responding to his daughter’s, “this isn’t the place or time.” with “this is the perfect place and time.”
The tragedy is that had Tyrion not murdered Tywin, we may have actually seen a stable and functional kingdom with Tommen as king and Tywin as hand.
Drogon : hold my beer 🍺
@@jasonsandhu3760 lmao
I completely agree.
Which is the tragedy of Tywin. With all of his experience and intelligence, he failed in guiding his own family. It was almost as if he took pleasure in seeing all of his children suffer.
That is the irony. Tywin being the refined nobleman and wise tactician was murdered while taking a sh*t.
The only thing he lacked was compassion. If Tyrion was on his side I’m sure they’d be unstoppable.
And in the end it killed him
But yes, the Lannister family United would be unstoppable, they are some of the best players of the Game of Thrones bar Varys, little finger and some others
I think also his wife dying whom we are led to believe he loved made him shut down his compassionate side
On the end, the broken relationship with Tyrion was his downfall, his one blindspot.
@Gregor Heisenhorn kinda ironic, really. Seeing how his lack of compassion for Tyrion killed him.
Tywin was smart but he didn't understand that the key to excellence is balancing things as need be. He saw compassion destroy his father, so he lost his, instead of limiting it. In the end, that is why he died. He had the most magnificient son he could have wanted but he threw him away.
Oh really? He failed to even find his heir a wife. Jof is Barateon, so what about all this crap about "family"?
Tywin legitimately wants Tommen to be a good king. Sure, he absolutely expects to be the main advisor in charge behind the throne, but what he cares most about is his legacy. Tywin knows he is no longer a young man. He does not want to hold on to absolute power for himself, only to see his efforts annihilated once he's dead because he left a meek, impotent king in charge.
Funny cos that's what happened. Left a week and impotent king in charge and his legacy was ruined.
Tyrion was who he should have looked to. But "dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes".
@@olumideaduloju6409 To be fair, Tyrion wasnt as good as he believed himself to be
@@DM-Oz Still better then his siblings. Cersai is the worse ruler ever besides maybe Baelor the blessed.
@@crazyscotsman9327 Jaime(pos losting hand at least) could had been a good ruler if he cared enough to try, he is not the best, but he knows that but he seemed to be kind of good at understanding the people following him, at least is what it seemed during his PoV as Lord Commander
@@olumideaduloju6409 He wasmt expecting to get capped on the shitter
He was also intelligent enough to not want the crown.
It shows different between how was Ned Stark approached Joffrey and how was Tywin approached Tommen. What a wise man!
I don't think that Tywin was actually manipulating Tommen, at least deliberately. I think that he is genuinely trying to create a good king in Tommen, to create at least one lasting legacy.
Tommen was quiet, polite, boring, but dammit if he wasn’t the Lannister’s last chance for a good king. Especially with Tywin as his teacher. The day would have come where he would have stood up and shown mercy against Tywin’s wishes, and though angry and trying to argue initially, part of Tywin would have been proud.
Tywin was trying to create a "Good King" by his standard of what a "Good King" means, which means a King that furthers the prestige and power of his own House, and puts that over the needs of the individual. Tywin saw that Tommen was malleable, and wanted to shape Tommen's ideology to match his own: Tommen's rule, following Twyin's beliefs, would be Tywin's ultimate legacy.
@Anjelica Snorcket Oh yeah, I wasn't trying to make an indictment of Tywin, I admire him greatly. I was just pointing out that he wasn't trying to create a "Good King" the way Jon Snow might imagine a "Good King" to be, for the sole purpose of best protecting the people. I agree though, that in the long run, that probably would have been the best thing for Westeros as a whole.
This was also why he was having the sex talk right away imo. They needed a Lannister heir.
Tywin legitimately wanted Tommen to be his heir. He was all about ensuing a lasting legacy to his house and with the clock ticking on his life he needed to take the time he had left to mold Tommen (who was a less than ideal material, but at least was more malleable than Joffrey) into a suitable king.
the more I see of Tywin the more I realise how we was by far the best character ain the show and the show really tumbled in dialogue and story after he died
Strongly agreed! And Charles Dance was one of the most well-cast actors ever.
Yeah, I can see why one could feel that. But we all know the real reason.
@@Slechy_Lesh
Combination of both perhaps 😓
Imagine how he would've been if he lived to season 8? They'd have ruined him too... maybe it's best he died sooner than later
@@thalmoragent9344 probably would have taken rumors of the white Walker threat seriously and sent more lannister and Royal soldiers to the wall rather than do nothing.
@@Roycesraphim1
Exactly. He may have pulled extra strings but either way, he would've likely helped
Tywin's largest mistake, of course was in undervaluing, and in some ways underestimating, his youngest son's wisdom and focus. There was some truth to him saying at the end that he respected and even admired some of Tyrion's qualities. Unfortunately his deep hatred for his son (based almost entirely on the condition of Tyrion's birth) made him blind to the understanding that just because he had no true love for Tyrion that must be true of others. He really thought Jamie's affection for Tyrion was merely 'a soft spot' and that people like Varys were only being opportunistic. His blinkered misjudgment left him unable to imagine their possible actions to help Tyrion, which of course proved costly to him.
I would want Tywin be my teacher too. He is wise and that’s his grandfather that cares about furthering his family line.
Tywin was good at teaching children who he saw good qualities in. Arya an Tommen were both smart an he knew they were worth his time.
...when...when was Tommen smart?
@@svenlauke1190 perhaps he meant tommen was humble, and he honestly could’ve been hella smart/wise wit Margery as his wife and Tywin as his hand adviser. But for sure tommen was young smart.
@@MAui8BLac I mean...he was easily manipulated. thats the opposite of smart for me.
@@svenlauke1190 he did not know how babies are created. And got crazy with teenage hormones. Got a crazy mother guiding him
Best of men are brought down by women. He had two cutthroat bitches eating at his head.
@@svenlauke1190 Tommen wasn't especially smart but he was teachable. In time, Tywin would have taught him how to make good decisions without being utterly reliant on other people. Margaery would have been able to manipulate him anyway, but she's very smart herself. The realm would have prospered all the same with her helping Tommen rule.
"A testament to her failures as a mother and a disciplinarian..."
AND a ruler. Especially in the books.
Cersei fucks up anything she touches. Useful if you need to destroy your enemies, less so if you want to build a kingdom, or raise two children.
I personally consider Tywin to be GRRM's interpretation of Machiavelli's "The Prince", which I consequently view as a satirical take on "good" nobles. Much like in the book itself, Tywin is doing everything "right"; diminishing others of their power while boosting his, while completely destryoing many people along the way. Much like in "The Prince" (which was written as a reference to actual nobles), he ends up dying due to the consequences of his actions, however, since the truly good way to be a leader is to avoid bloodshed and immorality.
This is one of Tywin's smoothest moments. I love when he effortlessly guided the boy away from his mother. The power changed hands right before our eyes, easily, subtly.
"Wisdom is a product of Experience, and Experience is often the product of poor choices." Mark Twain.
I will always love the way tywin says "yessss" after tommen says wisdom 😂 fuck amazing actor Charles dancer
you can feel that he was really happy that tommen got that lol
“Finally, I got a winner in this family.”
Ah yes, Dancer
Love it, only Charles Dance could transition from a missive about wisdom and kingship to scoring some vag and somehow make it all sound just perfect 🙂
Tommen probably would’ve been a great King if Tyrion didn’t kill him. He was like “you already fucked up one son I’ll see to his one” to Cersei 😂
One of the mistakes the series made in Season 7, was that even with Tywin gone, Tommen still had a good advisor, namely Sir Kevin Lannister, who is described as a slightly lesser version of Tywin. Ultimately, Varys has to kill him because he's been too effective at making Tommen a good king. The show, of course, completely fucked that up.
I really liked the actor for Kevan Lannister. What a wasted opportunity.
They stopped introducing the new characters that were essential to good story telling. Victorian Greyjoy and Quinton Martell for starters. No Arther Cunnington or Old Grif either. The show could have been great
@@dickenstom Could you or anyone tell me why in all seven hells did they decide to not do any of the other storylines and thus butchering the show and all the character arcs (Like Dany's and Jamie's)?
@@misabelrodriguez1163 Bit late for a response but they stopped for the same reason why they compressed the final 2 seasons into 1. They were tired of game of thrones and wanted to move on to big hollywood blockbusters dangled before them. However they screwed the ending so badly that all those offers for movies and other series disappeared pretty much over night. They also ran out of source material and started believing their hype that they could finish the story better / do a better job than the author of the book. And fun fact they only got the job because they got a meeting with GRRM and told him who Jon Snows parents were, something that most fans who read the books had pieced together years ago. But they had connections, so they got to make the show, the first seasons were almost carbon copies of the books, then they ran out of source material and screwed it all up, but not listening to GRRM's input anymore.
I think part of what made Tywin such a good teacher was that he didn’t treat Tommen like an incompetent little boy. He spoke to him as an equal and took the time to explain why he thought the way he did. Never thought I’d say this, but we need teachers like Tywin Lannister.
A class main purpose is to fumble and make mistakes. You make mistakes in the class to teach you wrong from right, and thus have experience.
Tywin was ruthless in defense of his family and position but he'd be a damned good person to have as a friend. He was as close to a perfect ruler as there was, he just had one blind spot and that was his own children.He couldn't stop Cersei from poisoning Jamie and he couldn't handle the fact his wife died giving birth to a dwarf.
When people dont listen to you, when people stare at their goddamn phones when you talk, when people do not respect you. You REMOVE them from your life, promptly.
Tywin giving his grandson “The Talk” is so funny
Tywin's great mistake was underestimate Tyrion. He never accepted it.
Tywin knew Tyrion was smart.
But he hated him for getting his wife killed during childbirth.
So Tywin ruined any chance for Tyrion to have love.
For Tywin to admit to himself he was executing a revenge plot against his own son, would've meant dealing with the emotions.
As a Westerlander, you repress, repress, repress :D And forget to think of your son as a human being right where it hurts.
Tywin's greatest mistake was to only care about threats coming from the outside of his family, while not caring about what was happening inside his family, being totaly blind about the twins' incestuous relationship and Tyrion. When you think about it, the Starks and Lannisters are complete opposites. While the Lannisters cared only about the outside and projecting their power upon other houses, the Starks were all about the inside, not really caring about the other kingdoms of the realm. Both attitudes proved to be their undoing.
@@Xerxes2005 A shame, especially if you consider just how great both houses were.
Instead of cooperating to build the strongest kingdom, they mauled each other to death while the white walkers rose beyond the wall
His mistake was underestimating bonding between Jamie and Tyrion
@@JoshSweetvale Not only because of that. He hated that of all his children the dwarf that got his wife killed was the one that inherited all the family brain.
Two other great tywin moments:
1. Sansa and Tyrions wedding, Joffrey steals the little steps so Tyrion can't put the mantle over Sansa's shoulders. The people start laughing, but since Tyrion was a lannister, that would put shame on his name as well so Tywin just turns around with a deadly stare and the whole crowd goes silent instantly.
2. Joffrey is commanding Tywin from the Iron Throne and Tywin calmly walks up the steps towards Joffrey, he's so calm but yet so intimidating that even Joffrey felt like he had to shut up.
My personal favorite scenes in the whole of GoT ( other than 'Hardhome' ) were the ones he shared with Arya while she was his cup girl at Harrenhall.
ua-cam.com/video/A8Wr-yrAL1c/v-deo.html
My favorite of Tywin was probably when him, Tyrion and Cersei disguss weddings. Specialy at the end when she would not stop running her mouth, he quickly stands and says:"Not another word of it!" Pauses and continues:"My children.... You disgraced the Lannister name for far too long!"
I love how Tywin just Ignore Cersei's "This is hardly the time and place"
Because it is exactly the time and place. Little Joff is the perfect example of failure.
That's power
@@jeffmusyoka1876Thank you for saying this. I noticed and appreciated it immediately.
I love he tells Tommen that his answers are wrong without telling his answers are wrong, if only teachers were like this
Something literally no one recognised. Tommen's first pick was Holiness. Often in situations like these, the first answer reveals what path we would take if it came down to it.
Despite having Tywin's guidance and his wisdom, Tommen still blindly followed his own choice ... the same way Baratheon died to his drinking, the same way Joffrey died because of his stupidity, the same way Ned died because of his honor, the same way all the other kings died because of the paths they thought were righteous.
What happened to the Holy King ? He fastened himself to an early grave because food was of this world and this world was sinful.
And how did Tommen die ? He killed himself because of his mother's sinful acts. He could have stayed King, overruled his mother by virtue of being King but he killed himself, fled and subjected the seven kingdoms to an evil monster
Ultimately, if Tywin would objectively describe Tommen's rule as a king ... he would fit right in with the rest of the idiot kings
Literally everyone who's seen the show recognizes that.
I mean his wife, the woman he loved, and her family were in the Sept as it blew up. That probably didn't help either.
@@Cissablack708 I doubt it. Not even Tywin could see it. The fact that Tommen's first answer would be his ultimate blunder. Afterall, which of the idiot kings was the dumbest ? Robert was poisonned, he loved to drink and hunt. Not too unreasonable. The Just King was betrayed by his evil brother. If being a victim of betrayal made one stupid, then Tywin himself is stupid. Every great man that has ever lived is stupid.
What about the Holy King ? He appointed a child as High Septon. And died of hunger because food was of this world and this world is sinful. The Holy King was beyond saving. And exactly like Tommen : He wanted to die. The only one of the stupid kings who wanted to die was the Holy King. Afterall, everyone knows that permanent hunger leads to death. He chose death the same way Tommen did.
If as you claim, what I said was obvious to all watchers then at least Tywin would have noticed. Unless you're claiming every viewer is smarter than Tywin ? I know we get the benefit of being omniscient and all knowing, but i doubt everyone knew.
Anyway, just sharing some insights.
A long time ago, I came to the opposite conclusion that a lot of the comments seem to make. Tywin is a _bad_ parent. Because he attempted to make his grandchildren and children into what they were not. Or he projected expectations upon them they could not meet, or had no expectations of them at all. Cersei was never fit to be a queen mother and he knew this. Jamie wanted to be a 'true knight' and constantly rebelled against the expectations to succeed the family. He irrationally hated Tyrion, making him into the monster he expected of him, despite his obvious intelligence and loyalty to the family. Constantly humiliating Tyrion at every turn. He wanted to mold them into political tools to be consumed and expended in the service of "the family" above all else. He's not really doing anything different with Tonmen. All his children find him incredibly suffocating and oppressive to be around. Tonmen would've likely felt the same given enough time.
Tywin expects everybody else to act with a cold, rational and humorless precision. And they constantly defy him by being irrational. I suppose that makes him the opposite of Ned Stark, who did his best to accommodate the idiosyncrasies of his children while begrudgingly recognizing the political roles they had to fill by necessity. He _still_ knew Jon Snow had to go to The Wall, but shows genuine concern for his well-being. He indulged his tomboyish daughter Arya by hiring a proper fencing instructor for her, though he probably also knows that there are political and cultural pressures that would push Arya into being married as a 'proper' lady.
Maybe this is too deep....but when Tywin says "until the last two killed him" it cuts to a shot of Cersei because really, it was her who planned his death (with drinking and hunting) so it really was the whoring that killed him. Cersei loved him at first, she even admitted that when the marriage was first arranged, it was the happiest day of her life. Robert just couldn't get over Liana.
Cersei only tried for a day though. She expected Robert to forget Lyanna the moment he saw her, and was pissed when he didn’t
Imagine your husband moaning another woman’s name on your wedding night. Cersei knew the marriage was doomed right then.
@@Mr33500 not at all, cersei's pov in the books explains she "tried" (meaning she didn't cheat) until a party where she evidently saw robert cheat on her with another lady. That's when she started her own cheating.
Yeah but Tywin wasn t manipulating he was just teaching his grandson who needs Tywin.
1:53 "... to abandon his subject to an evil that he was too gullible to recognize" ... the high sparrow just casually strolling by in the background...
0:15 "I am going to play the scene first and then deliver the analysis"
Is it weird that i was so positively surprised, that intro was not 2 minutes long and he let the scene play without interruption?
Such a small difference and it makes such a big impact
This wasn't manipulation. He was teaching his grandson. He himself lives by this code of getting the counsel of wise men. Just look at the several meetings he has had where he asks for the counsel of his generals and then takes decisions
I don’t think Tywin was a bad guy either, he never seems to relish in or enjoy violence, but he is willing to do whatever is necessary to protect his family. After he knows his family is protected, his second goal is to bring peace/stability/prosperity to the realm. I don’t think he would have openly attacked anyone unprovoked - little finger is the bad guy. I think Tywin might actually have been somewhat complicit in the murder of Joffrey - he let it happened so that he could get rid of him because he was a threat to his families safety and the realms prosperity (he would bring unending war on death upon the family/realm). However he made sure Tyrion was blamed so no one could see an outsider taking down one of his family and he could use it to send Tyrion to the wall. Tywins only truly unjustified actions are involving Tyrion which I believe is more than just about his dwarfism - I think it has more to do with misplaced anger/hate over the death of his wife so even his cruel/hateful actions are rooted in love (doesn’t justify it at all but it shows he isnt evil at his core).
I actually think this is just Tywin having the opportunity to be a good grandpa for once. His twins are kind of dumb, he had irrational hatred towards his smart child and his first grandson was crazy.
This wasn't so mich an attempt to manipulate Tommen into a pawn for Tywin. Rather it was an attempt by Tywin to mold Tommen into an effective king, one that could hold control over the seven kingdoms and secure a lannister dynasty. He understood that he had only a limited amount of time to do so before he died.
Baratheon...?
@@BoundInChains Does the name really matter, as long as he's Tywin's grandson?
@@BoundInChains he was still working on Jaime taking his place as heir to Casterly Rock, but he also wanted a Lannister friendly king on the throne, doesn't matter if his name is Baratheon
@@andyarken7906 Yes, it does, because toTywin the Lannister name meant more than anything else.
There isn't much difference.
The one redeeming quality we see in all Lannisters we meet in the show, they love their family. Cerci loves her children, Jamie loves his sister, and Tyrion loves them both. But Tywin loves his family beyond his children. He wanted to see House Lannister rise from the mess his father made of it.
Tywin loved Jamie, tolerated Cersei and despised Tyrion (for things he had no control over). He didn’t love his house per se, but he had a mixture of pride and duty (like Stannis). He saw how low his father’s weakness brought his once proud house down, and made it his life’s mission to leave the Lannisters as powerful and influential as they could be, under the established rules of Westeros (initially, the Targarean Dynasty, and afterwards, supposedly setting up his grandchildren as heirs to the new Baratheon line). By most accounts the kingdoms were at their best while he was hand to Aerys, before their falling out. Tywin was unquestionably one of the most effective Hands of all time. Aerys went and ruined it by insulting Tywin’s marriage proposal of Cersei to Rhaegar, and also possibly raping Joanna (Tywin’s wife).
The way he totally ignored Cerseis interruption 😂
I never understood why Tywin just didn't take the throne himself from the get go.....he clearly could do it
Because the show has the Lannisters as villains, you forget that Tywin is an excellent leader. He's not just clever or witty, he's a legitimate genius and he knows how to handle things properly. The assumption that Tywin rules by fear isn't really true. He's not manipulating Tommen, he's teaching him. He's giving him excellent advice, and advice that Tywin knows he personally won't benefit from. He knows he's old. He knows he doesn't have long left, he's trying to set Tommen up as a good and stable king - listen to your advisors, take a queen and produce an heir. It's good advice, and Tommen needs to know that he should listen to his advisors, especially when his mother starts telling him different
Tywin is definitely a villain wtf he is responsible for some of the most heinous acts of cruelty in recent westerosi history
well maybe he's kind of manipulating Tommen. He basically says "do as your adivsors tell you", and he is his main advisor. So basically, Tywin is making himself a shadow-king, at least until Tommen is more mature
Robert Baratheon was absolutely terrified of Tywin. And for good reason. Tywin can be the most fearsome in westeros.
"The assumption that Tywin rules by fear isn't really true"
Bitch he sends a singer that plays a song about a noble house he drowned in their own castle, along-side every servant they had, to scare vassals from uprising.
edit: The story of the Rains of Castamere - ua-cam.com/video/LbiSwq07Yvg/v-deo.html&ab_channel=RedTeamReview
I think one of the main thing about Tywin is that, yes, he knows he's old and he's not immortal and he won't always be there to guide his legacy, so he has to make his descendants good rulers. I don't think his goals are just "manipulate everyone until you die", he's also working long term, for the furthering of the Lannister legacy
The casting of Charles Dance as Twyin was incredible
Tywins has so much intelligence that every character lost theirs after he died.
God imagine getting the talk from tywin lannister lol
Wisdom!
Hm. Tywin, Head of House Lannister was wise. But in all his wisdom, decided to vilify his dwarf son despite his triumphs, not for any reason but spite. He then believed it was a wise to call the son's dead lover a "wh*re" not once, but twice while starring down a crossbow and being warned not to call her that again. He died, killed by his own son on a latrine, a most pathetic demise. Was that truly wise of him? To gullibly ignore his son's accomplishments, sentence his son to death for a crime he knew he didn't commit?
The way he removes Tommen from Cersei's control. He knows that if his bloodline, through his Baratheon descendants, is to continue, and his family is to endure, he cant have Tommen under Cersei's vindictive, selfish and narrowminded hand. I also love the way that you can see how well Lena Headey acts this out, just by her expressions, you see she knows she is being removed from influence over Tommen.
"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer". Thus I die via a crossbow bolt whilst sat on the royal privy.
I dont think he actively is manipulating Tommen. He doesn't really need to. Tommen just trusts his grandfather and Tywin recognizes that he finally has someone who will actually listen to his advice. Tywin is obsessed with the idea of his legacy and realizes that the best way to ensure his legacy is to ensure Tommen succeeds at being a good king
God, Tywin is amazing and Charles played him amazingly, I honestly think Tywin would have been a great king
I think so too. Out of all the villains in GOT, he is the one villain who I would’ve seen win in the end. My second pick would be the High Sparrow and the third would be Stannis Baratheon. Agree or disagree, these three men were not as evil or horrible as most people seem to think if you think about it.
The speech of Pycelle at his funeral was awesome in the books.
He was a King in a way since Aerys Targaryen was a Mad Man who was terrible with his judgement and it was Tywin as his advisor that the Seven kingdoms prospered for a time, until Aerys started being a Dick and making Tywin suffer with underhanded tricks
@@Confederate-hj2dc High Sparrow, no. I can't trust anyone who does everything in the name of religion.
@@JnEricsonx maybe he wasn’t as religious as you think and that he was using religion to get the radical faith militant and peasants on his side. We will never know, but other leaders have done it in the past.
Jamie being the first one that actually ask Tommen how he is,,,
Daddy of the year
I mean he wasn't wrong, but what he actually meant was: A wise king is one who obeys Tywin Lannister.
How perfectly ruthless is Tywin saying King Robert instead of, "Your father."
That’s a really good catch.
"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king"
Best quote of the whole show.
"a king needs a queen. Now, young Tommen, I would like to tell you about the birds and the bees."
"it's all relatively straightforward"
Tywin's only major flaw was his lack of empathy, especially towards Tyrion
It gives me great joy when tommen is taken away from cerci by tywin so she can't end up making another joffrey
2:20 "Spent his time whoring, and hunting, and drinking. Until the last **two** killed him." Cercei's annoyed look here kills me lol
Tywin is asking questions because he wants his grandson to use his brain and understand, instead of giving him spoon-fed wisdom.
I love how they picked "Orys", for all the names they could have used they picked one of the few we know was likely never a king.
"It's all relatively straight forward"
That hasn't been my experience.
I 100% believe that Tommen as King with Tywin as his Hand would be the best outcome for Westeros.
Tommen's humble and generous personality with Tywin's intimidating history would've made everyone happy and feared at the same time.
But then Tyrion and Cersai had to fuck everything up.
to be fair Tyrion and Cersei are his biggest fuck ups.
@@BioMatic2 exactly. They are representations of Tywin's biggest character flaws
The white walkers would have wiped them all out in that situation. What so many people miss about this scene is that Tywin himself isn't wise. He's arrogant and thinks he basically knows everything. He doesn't know what he doesn't know, and it killed him. It also would have destroyed Westeros and maybe the world with it.
@@zkeletonz001 but the south didn't help the north fight the others anyway and it didn't matter.
That's what I hate so much about season 8.
Dorne was destroyed, didn't fight with them, viserys got killed unnecessary, fought against them, a giant part of the wildlings and giants got wiped out before they could fight with them etc. All this should have lead to the others winning. But they still lost
@@zkeletonz001 Tywin did everything about any threat which appeared, only his son was able to murder him, how should he see that coming? I actually think he would do much more to stop the others. People forget he was the hand of the king for mad king(before he becomes mad) and he was one of the wisest and most efficient hands westros had!
When Tommen says wisdom Tywin’s yes is almost the closest we see him to happy or glad. Like there’s a chance still with his family. Never notice that before 2:48
I love how you can tell the relief in Tywin in this conversation, theres pride in there too. You can almost see in his eyes that hes thinking "finally someone I can work with" after languishing through a mad king, an incompetent king, and a cruel boy king. Tywin and Tommen could have probably done great things for Westeros.
I wish Tywin was my grandfather. He's clearly better grandfather than father.
Fascinating & masterful how in few minutes Tywnn draws Tommen away from both his daughter Cerses & his son Jamie on the stairs! His only error was not winning Tyrion & infact alienating him.... Tyrion was better hand of the king than Tywnn in that he had compassion hidden behind his wisdom & ruthlessness.
Tywin is honestly one leader in the show that I wasn't worried about in a backstabbing sense. He was rather straight forward, he wanted to keep his family alive and was ready to do what had to be done to make it happen. He was a warrior, tactician and politician because he knew he needed to be all that if he wanted to ensure his family's safety on the throne.
I also love that scene when only he realizes Arya is actually a girl dressed as a boy, that also shows how clever he is.
What makes GoT special is that most of the iconic scenes are dialogues and dramas instead of action scenes.
Probably this is closest thing to love that Tywin Lannister was able to show
I like how whenever tommen gives his initial answers, Tywin doesn’t tell him he’s wrong or he’s stupid, he simply gives him examples of how those aren’t the best qualities, prompting his grandchild to change his answers on his own, and doesn’t even give him the answer at the end, but let’s him figure it out himself
I can literally watch an entire episode of Tywin lecturing Tommen without getting bored
I wish they had included the conversation where Tywin explained to his grandson the mechanics of making a baby.
Tywin only raised his voice like twice in the whole show, that's why he is such an amazing villain, and also why that scene when Joffrey tells him he was a coward during Rob's rebellion, is so good: Tywin doesn't raise his voice, he actually sends him to bed. That's power, not like many movie villains who just shout and are disrespected in their faces without consequences.
Tywin maybe wasn't just an evil guy, but had he been a historical character, we wouldn't think of him as a good guy.
"It's all relatively straight forward, you stick em with the pointy end"
That is some cold shit when Tywin talked about Joffery in front of Cersei was the satisfying thing I ever have in my lifetime.
Tywin was dangerous because he understood the intricacies of when to act, when not to act, when to apply pressure and how much pressure was needed to get the desired effect. He had the power of a great house behind him but only need the threat of action to make all even the greatest houses back down from open confontation. His only true weakness was his own kids.
Tywin is a good administrator, his governing skill is top notch. He was the hand for the mad king for god sake
there are countless videos about Tywin genius and they have their merit.
what I find his biggest weakness that resulted in his demise is is hatred for his son Tyrion and join Cersei in blaming him for the poisoning of Joffrey although a man of his intelligence should ve known better.
the continued hatred for his son gave the chance to his enemies to successfully have him killed by his imp son in the end.
Juxtaposing his softness with the utter disregard for Jeffrey and Cersei is utter genius in displaying Tywin, balancing empathy and apathy like that, utmostly concerned with continuing the family, as opposed to his existing family. Really highlighting that he is driven by family legacy, as opposed to the family he has right now.
Charles Dance’s screen presence is insane in this show.
Tommen just having a casual conversation with his mom, dad, uncle aunt and grandfather.
It’s crazy how Tommen pretty much threw all of this information away soon as Tywin died