I have seen those comments you talked about. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you call the bike; it matters what you do with it, how you do it, and what you get out of it.
I always have been a gravel-commuter, so the dropbar gravelbike works for me. I Ride a Cannondale Topstone Lefty on 45 mm tyres. My mountainbikes are kind of wannabe gravelbikes because they do miles and miles on the gravelroad. My first mtb for gravel was a full suspension 1998 Rocky Mountain Element Race. Was no dropbar, but equally low kind of narrow flatbar, so the riding position was gravelly. The gearing is 3x8 with a big 48 largest chainring. It was very good for commuting, and also good for some playing in the woods, but that low bar geometry was not good for steep declines for me that has a tad of height-fear. Because of the low front it was fast and aerodynamic on gravelroads. Today its winter, and I use my winterbike for commuting. Its a semifat tyre bike, an Orbea Laufey. I use it mostly as a gravel/tarmac and ice commuting bike, and it sure has different geometry. This bike takes away fear of height with a slack and high headtube where the big 140 mm damper lifts the bar closer to the sky. It is a fantastic smooth commuter, but that upright ridingposition comes at a huge aerodynamic cost. Equipped with 2,8 inch spiked tyres this non-aero commuter probably is 30 percent slower than my Topstone, but thats ok. I sacrifies speed for comfort and safety. Those tyres sits absolutely safe on ice.
Having both a Gravelbike and a Downcountry MTB, I can say that there is absolutely no sense in saying that the tires define what the bike is. I bought my 3T Exploro Racemax specifically because of its geometry and ability to run up to 2.4“. I sit relative upright on it, but it is still nowhere near the position of my MTB. It is comfortable, it is zippy, and with 2.25“ tires it can go almost anywhere. And that is the intention: I want a comfortable ride, I want to not be forced to choose my routes carefully and I want to be able to climb almost anything. Blue and green singletracks, fire roads , gravel from Gucci to practically rock gardens…occasional jumps. Then, when I know I might be riding something that the 3T just cannot handle, out comes the Scott Spark. And yet, it still has 0.5 less tires than my drop bar bike 😂
Totally get every point you make and agree. I was thinking Jeep Wrangler about the Fargo before it came up on the screen. You made me realise which direction I want to go with my Gravel /do everything bike. Thanks for doing this video so quickly and please keep em coming.
Great video! Personally, I prefer flat bars anyway (with innerbarends), so if I plan a rougher ride, I'll grab my HT with 120mm fork and 2.4 Vittoria Mezcal XC tires. My gravel bike (42mm tires and drop bar) is for my faster rides (concrete, gravel) but nothing rough. I really don't see myself putting drop bars on my hardtail. In the woods around me, it's always up & down, up & down and for this, I really prefer the HT instead of the gravel bike.
Pretty much agree with your comments. I consider our Cutthroats to be gravel bikes with bigger tires, slacker in the front and longer in the back than most gravel bikes. But what you lose in speed and agility, you gain in overall comfort and stability, especially on the descents. But as far as being a mountain bikes,no way, it feels nothing like my mountain bike.
One thing to consider, although I did not comment on it in the video: A modern gravel bike with big tires and a wide and flared bar will be very close to the geo and feel of an 80s MTB with drops. But a modern MTB is soooo far removed from the 'old days' that the comparison is very hard to make. I should have added that in...delayed intelligence, if any! gg
@ I would say that for sure, the Cutthroat is a better and more capable in every way than my first mountain bike, it was a 1994 Specialized Rockhopper, with a ridged fork. So I think bikes in general, have come a long way. Some of those original drop bar mountain bikes were referred to as monster cross bikes. I remember thinking that sounded pretty cool 😎
Flat bars or drop bars. Full-rigid, hardtail, or full-sus. Road geo or XC mountain geo. 38mm tires or 2.4 tires. I don't really care. I just want it to roll very fast on pavement and gravel while still being capable enough to ride up to blue level single track. Secondarily, I want it to be very comfortable. Here's what I think would be ideal for me. 80mm front and rear travel. Very light ~600gm 2.2 tires with a Pathfinder like tread pattern. Very narrow flat bar, I want to keep that single track capability. Geometry that falls somewhere between typical Gravel bike and XC geo.
Ive been goofing with 90s steel bike conversions for along time.. Road bikes with fat tires and drop bars on MTBs..Most of my bikes are mixes of old and modern parts. FRANKEN bikes for sure. Whatever gets the job done. I'm starting to modify a 90s. Schwinn World Sport (a road bike) to run on gravel. I swapped the 27 inch wheels with some 700c's I had around and put some Ritchey 38mm cyclocross tires on them. I think I want to go with a.flat bar to start with, and run a pair of Control tech bar ends for additional hand positioning. So this.will be no drop bar MTB for sure. My main concern, and in response to the question of what is the difference between a Gravel bike and a drop bar MTB, to me is the difference in the bottom bracket heights between the two disciplines. I notice that Gravel bikes are seeming to continue with a Road bike lower bottom bracket vs a higher MTB BB. Pedal strikes have always been a big nuisance for me when riding road bike geometry around chunkier terrain. If they were to ever come up with a Gravel bike with more clearance and stiill maintain that road bike feel and efficiency I might actually be tempted to break down and get one.
Yeah...BB heights would be an issue if you were pedaling in real tech. Man, I had a Specialized Enduro (old one) with Plus tires and that thing was scary to ride with all the pedal strikes. 29er wheels fixed that. But it does point out further nuances in real differences between a MTB and a gravel bike approach. Apples and oranges. Maybe even bananas! gg
Side question: What lens is that on your Tifosi glasses? I also have the Rail model and like 'em, but would love them with what looks like a brown/amber tint.
I think the Cutty is Jeremy Clarksons Bently from the Madagascar Special, Luxury, Comfort, Performance and all terrain capabilities with those big beefy tires and the looks to go with it. I think the Fargo is more of a small Tacoma, it's utilitarian enough and somewhat fun to drive on its own but you really have to throw a camper on it with a "wittle wadder" fill that bed up and go several sizes bigger on the tires to really get some use out of it IE: A full frame bag for the fargo and 2.5inch+ plus tires over the stock 2.2 Sparwoods they come with now, its does good with the stock 2.2 just like the Tacoma with its stock tires but once you go 35/37x12x15-20" tires all the magic happens. The Fargo and a small truck like the Taco and to throw one more in the mix the DR650 really sit in the middle of their respective categories, you can make it more adventurous with a simple tire change and some luggage, or make it more street bareable the same way with slicker tires
Yeah...I get the comparison. The trick there is having a big hammer and sawzall to get 37s on a Taco. And carry spare CV shafts and ball joints. But that is a another topic all together. gg
2.2's add a lot of cush to the ride but the different geo and narrower bars really make a gravel bike feel different to any mtb I've ridden. Thinking a Lauf Seigla with the Grit fork on 2.2's is my next ride...
yes, you can fit 2.2 tires on Seigla, but the mud clearance is like barely 3-4mm in the rear. If you will ride in sticky mud with little rocks you can damage carbon chain stays . That's why I am thinking about getting 2.0 instead of 2.2 just to have more clearance for mud. It really depends where you are riding, I mean if mud is not sticky just dust 2.2 will work, but again I will not risk it. I damaged my MTB carbon bike when I went through sticky mud, had to replace the rear triangle.
I think I may have a drop bar mountain bike! Or is it a monster gravel bike? This summer I bought a 2013ish GT Timberline 2.0 XC bike that I put gravel drops and a rigid steel Kona fork on. Running 2.125" Rapid Robs so I'm just under your 2.2" threshold. Whether it's a drop bar mountain bike or a monster gravel bike, to me it's actually a better touring/bikepacking bike than anything I had previously put together for that purpose!
It wouldn't as the geo would be the same. Just look at a typical gravel bike like the Trek Checkpoint or Cannondale Topstone vs the classic Salsa Fargo, Strayer OG+, and Cotic Cascade.
Tomac basically left mt biking since he’d accomplished just about everything & signed with the 7-11 road team & raced a couple TdFs I think. He quit when we realized everyone he was riding against was doping & he refused to play along. I believe he still race mt bikes for fun, but wanted the drop bar muscle memory. I remember from our old Curtlo Wednesday rides a kid named Derrick that road down Viper on one of those rides with drop bars. I was frustrated because I struggled staying with him. Once Tomac gave up road cycling,
Comment from Turner's website about your fave bike: "Definitely a gravel bike for mountain bikers!" As one who accuses you of wanting a drop-bar MTB instead of gravel bike let me explain it's NOT the tire size, OK? It's the geometry! Gravel bikes are splitting into two camps, road bikes (with steep angles) with room for fat tires...or drop-bar MTB's with slacker angles. While both types might handle 2" tires, the one with steeper angles is gonna be more responsive vs stable like MTB's. You seem to prefer the latter while I prefer the former...all just fine, but let's not confuse the difference, OK?
Well, Mr. Turner is a mountain biker so he built this in the progressive geo manner (10mms of extra reach) that you will be seeing more and more of in the market place. He is ahead of his time. But what works for he and I will also work very well for anyone who desires some grace in the way their gravel bike handles more difficult terrain (up to a point, anyway). It reflects the So Cal Terrain as well, where pretty much NOTHING is buff. Not even the paved roads. If you are saying you prefer a faster handling gravel bike then OK. Cool. That is not so great where I live for older, mere mortals like me. I stand by the thought that nothing so determines how a gravel bike feels (confidence...comfort...control) as the tech level rises as tire size (assuming no suspension fork, etc). But not everyone will care about that even when it happens. gg
@@oldguyandabike I grew up riding and racing in SoCal. My first MTB was a B-Stone MB-1. I put drop bars on it the year before they came that way outta the box. Had a blast with it on Malibu and Pacific Palisades fire roads but hated it when I moved to MA with it's roots and rocks. IMHO gravel bikes are for the riding I did back then (and do now) rather than single-track and gnarly MTB stuff that so many gravel bikers seem to enjoy. The racier gravel bikes I ride would be no good for that. Ben Delaney says 72 degree head tube angle defines fast/responsive and I agree. One other note: Your bit about the old-time drop-bar MTB's being set up so the rider was on the drops rather than the hoods - the reason for that was the BRAKES. Those old-time brakes didn't do much when squeezed from the hoods...you needed all the leverage you got from pulling levers from the drops. Gravel bike will continue to split into two camps - drop-bar MTB's vs road bikes with room for fat tires. IMHO gravel bikes ARE the latter, the former are just drop-bar MTB's. Nothing wrong with 'em, but they're not really gravel bikes.
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 Ahhhh...I understand you better now. Was not clear before. Yeah, those old brakes were pretty horrible. There is also something to be said for the security on the drops instead of being perched on the hoods....way more control. gg
They are indeed if your benchmark is 90s mountain bikes. There is no gravel bike or ATB that’s even close to as capable as a modern hardtail XC 29er. Real front suspension as little as 100mm makes a massive difference. So does a slacker front end.
I just finished converting my 1989 Raleigh Peak into drop bars. First ride was going well until car pulled out in front of me. Now I'm in ER getting ribs xrayed. Careful out there folks. Looks like Tomacs bike except for rear disc.😅
My question is What does the living legend John Tomac think? 🤔 I'll take a vintage steel / carbon fork cx bike that takes a 35c tire, mini v brakes and a 48/36 chainring ( hollowtech) paired to a 9 or 10 11 x36 cassette any day😊
I have seen those comments you talked about. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you call the bike; it matters what you do with it, how you do it, and what you get out of it.
I always have been a gravel-commuter, so the dropbar gravelbike works for me. I Ride a Cannondale Topstone Lefty on 45 mm tyres. My mountainbikes are kind of wannabe gravelbikes because they do miles and miles on the gravelroad. My first mtb for gravel was a full suspension 1998 Rocky Mountain Element Race. Was no dropbar, but equally low kind of narrow flatbar, so the riding position was gravelly. The gearing is 3x8 with a big 48 largest chainring. It was very good for commuting, and also good for some playing in the woods, but that low bar geometry was not good for steep declines for me that has a tad of height-fear. Because of the low front it was fast and aerodynamic on gravelroads.
Today its winter, and I use my winterbike for commuting. Its a semifat tyre bike, an Orbea Laufey. I use it mostly as a gravel/tarmac and ice commuting bike, and it sure has different geometry. This bike takes away fear of height with a slack and high headtube where the big 140 mm damper lifts the bar closer to the sky. It is a fantastic smooth commuter, but that upright ridingposition comes at a huge aerodynamic cost. Equipped with 2,8 inch spiked tyres this non-aero commuter probably is 30 percent slower than my Topstone, but thats ok. I sacrifies speed for comfort and safety. Those tyres sits absolutely safe on ice.
Wow.
gg
My gravel bike has 2.35 thunder Burt’s , it’s awesome! Bearclaw Beaux Jaxon .
Having both a Gravelbike and a Downcountry MTB, I can say that there is absolutely no sense in saying that the tires define what the bike is. I bought my 3T Exploro Racemax specifically because of its geometry and ability to run up to 2.4“. I sit relative upright on it, but it is still nowhere near the position of my MTB. It is comfortable, it is zippy, and with 2.25“ tires it can go almost anywhere. And that is the intention: I want a comfortable ride, I want to not be forced to choose my routes carefully and I want to be able to climb almost anything. Blue and green singletracks, fire roads , gravel from Gucci to practically rock gardens…occasional jumps. Then, when I know I might be riding something that the 3T just cannot handle, out comes the Scott Spark. And yet, it still has 0.5 less tires than my drop bar bike 😂
Yep.
gg
Totally get every point you make and agree. I was thinking Jeep Wrangler about the Fargo before it came up on the screen. You made me realise which direction I want to go with my Gravel /do everything bike.
Thanks for doing this video so quickly and please keep em coming.
You are welcome. By the way, I love Jeeps. Just sayin'.
gg
Wranglers are actually fun to drive🙂
Great video! Personally, I prefer flat bars anyway (with innerbarends), so if I plan a rougher ride, I'll grab my HT with 120mm fork and 2.4 Vittoria Mezcal XC tires. My gravel bike (42mm tires and drop bar) is for my faster rides (concrete, gravel) but nothing rough. I really don't see myself putting drop bars on my hardtail. In the woods around me, it's always up & down, up & down and for this, I really prefer the HT instead of the gravel bike.
I saw you riding in castaic yesterday. Swing by the fire house on ridge route to re fuel sometime. Chris S.
@@chrissperber1278 will do.
gg
Pretty much agree with your comments. I consider our Cutthroats to be gravel bikes with bigger tires, slacker in the front and longer in the back than most gravel bikes. But what you lose in speed and agility, you gain in overall comfort and stability, especially on the descents. But as far as being a mountain bikes,no way, it feels nothing like my mountain bike.
One thing to consider, although I did not comment on it in the video: A modern gravel bike with big tires and a wide and flared bar will be very close to the geo and feel of an 80s MTB with drops.
But a modern MTB is soooo far removed from the 'old days' that the comparison is very hard to make.
I should have added that in...delayed intelligence, if any!
gg
@ I would say that for sure, the Cutthroat is a better and more capable in every way than my first mountain bike, it was a 1994 Specialized Rockhopper, with a ridged fork. So I think bikes in general, have come a long way. Some of those original drop bar mountain bikes were referred to as monster cross bikes. I remember thinking that sounded pretty cool 😎
@ yep. Remember the Bruce Gordon Rock and Roads? But now since we are not coming from cyclocross bikes, monstercross seems outdated.
gg
Flat bars or drop bars. Full-rigid, hardtail, or full-sus. Road geo or XC mountain geo. 38mm tires or 2.4 tires. I don't really care. I just want it to roll very fast on pavement and gravel while still being capable enough to ride up to blue level single track. Secondarily, I want it to be very comfortable. Here's what I think would be ideal for me. 80mm front and rear travel. Very light ~600gm 2.2 tires with a Pathfinder like tread pattern. Very narrow flat bar, I want to keep that single track capability. Geometry that falls somewhere between typical Gravel bike and XC geo.
@@marksandoval5361 sounds like my 2010 Specialized Epic 29er. Loved that bike.
gg
Ive been goofing with 90s steel bike conversions for along time.. Road bikes with fat tires and drop bars on MTBs..Most of my bikes are mixes of old and modern parts. FRANKEN bikes for sure. Whatever gets the job done.
I'm starting to modify a 90s. Schwinn World Sport (a road bike) to run on gravel.
I swapped the 27 inch wheels with some 700c's I had around and put some Ritchey 38mm cyclocross tires on them. I think I want to go with a.flat bar to start with, and run a pair of Control tech bar ends for additional hand positioning.
So this.will be no drop bar MTB for sure. My main concern, and in response to the question of what is the difference between a Gravel bike and a drop bar MTB, to me is the difference in the bottom bracket heights between the two disciplines.
I notice that Gravel bikes are seeming to continue with a Road bike lower bottom bracket vs a higher MTB BB.
Pedal strikes have always been a big nuisance for me when riding road bike geometry around chunkier terrain.
If they were to ever come up with a Gravel bike with more clearance and stiill maintain that road bike feel and efficiency I might actually be tempted to break down and get one.
Yeah...BB heights would be an issue if you were pedaling in real tech. Man, I had a Specialized Enduro (old one) with Plus tires and that thing was scary to ride with all the pedal strikes. 29er wheels fixed that.
But it does point out further nuances in real differences between a MTB and a gravel bike approach. Apples and oranges. Maybe even bananas!
gg
Side question: What lens is that on your Tifosi glasses? I also have the Rail model and like 'em, but would love them with what looks like a brown/amber tint.
Oooooo...not sure I know that. It is a transition lens for this pair Not sure if that narrows it down. Sorry. But it is not brown/amber.
gg
I think the Cutty is Jeremy Clarksons Bently from the Madagascar Special, Luxury, Comfort, Performance and all terrain capabilities with those big beefy tires and the looks to go with it.
I think the Fargo is more of a small Tacoma, it's utilitarian enough and somewhat fun to drive on its own but you really have to throw a camper on it with a "wittle wadder" fill that bed up and go several sizes bigger on the tires to really get some use out of it IE: A full frame bag for the fargo and 2.5inch+ plus tires over the stock 2.2 Sparwoods they come with now, its does good with the stock 2.2 just like the Tacoma with its stock tires but once you go 35/37x12x15-20" tires all the magic happens.
The Fargo and a small truck like the Taco and to throw one more in the mix the DR650 really sit in the middle of their respective categories, you can make it more adventurous with a simple tire change and some luggage, or make it more street bareable the same way with slicker tires
Yeah...I get the comparison.
The trick there is having a big hammer and sawzall to get 37s on a Taco. And carry spare CV shafts and ball joints.
But that is a another topic all together.
gg
@oldguyandabike the 37's become the sawzall 😅
2.2's add a lot of cush to the ride but the different geo and narrower bars really make a gravel bike feel different to any mtb I've ridden.
Thinking a Lauf Seigla with the Grit fork on 2.2's is my next ride...
yes, you can fit 2.2 tires on Seigla, but the mud clearance is like barely 3-4mm in the rear. If you will ride in sticky mud with little rocks you can damage carbon chain stays . That's why I am thinking about getting 2.0 instead of 2.2 just to have more clearance for mud. It really depends where you are riding, I mean if mud is not sticky just dust 2.2 will work, but again I will not risk it. I damaged my MTB carbon bike when I went through sticky mud, had to replace the rear triangle.
Yeah...that was a big thing in that Unbound a year or so ago? Killed a lot of carbon bikes.
gg
I think I may have a drop bar mountain bike! Or is it a monster gravel bike? This summer I bought a 2013ish GT Timberline 2.0 XC bike that I put gravel drops and a rigid steel Kona fork on. Running 2.125" Rapid Robs so I'm just under your 2.2" threshold. Whether it's a drop bar mountain bike or a monster gravel bike, to me it's actually a better touring/bikepacking bike than anything I had previously put together for that purpose!
Love it. Sounds like Project Curly! Such a fun bike.
gg
It wouldn't as the geo would be the same. Just look at a typical gravel bike like the Trek Checkpoint or Cannondale Topstone vs the classic Salsa Fargo, Strayer OG+, and Cotic Cascade.
Tomac basically left mt biking since he’d accomplished just about everything & signed with the 7-11 road team & raced a couple TdFs I think. He quit when we realized everyone he was riding against was doping & he refused to play along. I believe he still race mt bikes for fun, but wanted the drop bar muscle memory. I remember from our old Curtlo Wednesday rides a kid named Derrick that road down Viper on one of those rides with drop bars. I was frustrated because I struggled staying with him. Once Tomac gave up road cycling,
Oh...interesting. Thanks. A puzzle piece I was missing. Geez...Viper on Drop Bars? Mercy!
gg
Comment from Turner's website about your fave bike: "Definitely a gravel bike for mountain bikers!"
As one who accuses you of wanting a drop-bar MTB instead of gravel bike let me explain it's NOT the tire size, OK? It's the geometry! Gravel bikes are splitting into two camps, road bikes (with steep angles) with room for fat tires...or drop-bar MTB's with slacker angles. While both types might handle 2" tires, the one with steeper angles is gonna be more responsive vs stable like MTB's. You seem to prefer the latter while I prefer the former...all just fine, but let's not confuse the difference, OK?
Well, Mr. Turner is a mountain biker so he built this in the progressive geo manner (10mms of extra reach) that you will be seeing more and more of in the market place. He is ahead of his time. But what works for he and I will also work very well for anyone who desires some grace in the way their gravel bike handles more difficult terrain (up to a point, anyway). It reflects the So Cal Terrain as well, where pretty much NOTHING is buff. Not even the paved roads.
If you are saying you prefer a faster handling gravel bike then OK. Cool. That is not so great where I live for older, mere mortals like me.
I stand by the thought that nothing so determines how a gravel bike feels (confidence...comfort...control) as the tech level rises as tire size (assuming no suspension fork, etc).
But not everyone will care about that even when it happens.
gg
@@oldguyandabike I grew up riding and racing in SoCal. My first MTB was a B-Stone MB-1. I put drop bars on it the year before they came that way outta the box. Had a blast with it on Malibu and Pacific Palisades fire roads but hated it when I moved to MA with it's roots and rocks. IMHO gravel bikes are for the riding I did back then (and do now) rather than single-track and gnarly MTB stuff that so many gravel bikers seem to enjoy. The racier gravel bikes I ride would be no good for that.
Ben Delaney says 72 degree head tube angle defines fast/responsive and I agree.
One other note: Your bit about the old-time drop-bar MTB's being set up so the rider was on the drops rather than the hoods - the reason for that was the BRAKES. Those old-time brakes didn't do much when squeezed from the hoods...you needed all the leverage you got from pulling levers from the drops.
Gravel bike will continue to split into two camps - drop-bar MTB's vs road bikes with room for fat tires. IMHO gravel bikes ARE the latter, the former are just drop-bar MTB's. Nothing wrong with 'em, but they're not really gravel bikes.
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 Ahhhh...I understand you better now. Was not clear before. Yeah, those old brakes were pretty horrible. There is also something to be said for the security on the drops instead of being perched on the hoods....way more control.
gg
They are indeed if your benchmark is 90s mountain bikes. There is no gravel bike or ATB that’s even close to as capable as a modern hardtail XC 29er. Real front suspension as little as 100mm makes a massive difference. So does a slacker front end.
Yep. Big difference.
gg
Tomac wanted his drop bar mountain bike to have the same fit as his road bike as he was also riding for team 7eleven.
Thanks! I remembered some of that.
gg
I just finished converting my 1989 Raleigh Peak into drop bars. First ride was going well until car pulled out in front of me. Now I'm in ER getting ribs xrayed. Careful out there folks.
Looks like Tomacs bike except for rear disc.😅
Owwwww. Heal up!
gg
So I got to thinking what cars my bikes would be. I guess one would be a '62 AMC Rambler American and the other would be a '64 Ford Falcon.
@@daniellarson3068 dude. I love it! Yeah. I have no Porsche either.
gg
My question is What does the living legend John Tomac think? 🤔
I'll take a vintage steel / carbon fork cx bike that takes a 35c tire, mini v brakes and a 48/36 chainring ( hollowtech) paired to a 9 or 10 11 x36 cassette any day😊
Just put drop bars on a Trek Supercaliber and be dome with it.
I think Drop Bar rigid MTB’s are more fun than a barrel of Monkeys….
Well, I was second.
You win...well, nothing but the satisfaction of coming very close.
gg
@@oldguyandabike second is the first loser
Get mtb m8