British Use of the AR-15/M16
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- Опубліковано 18 лют 2023
- Last year I had the pleasure of giving a talk at the Cody Firearms Museum’s Arsenals of History Symposium. I’ve been working with my friend Jonathan Ferguson of the Royal Armouries on a research paper looking at British use of the AR-15 platform. My focus for the project has been the user experience, I’ve spoken to over 25 veterans from across the British military who have experience using the AR-15/M16 platform on operations. Chronologically their experiences span nearly 60 years and this somewhat informal presentation gives a brief overview of some of the operations where the rifles have been used from the Indonesian Confrontation right through to the present day.
Once the project is completed I'll put together a more in-depth video discussing the history of the UK's use of AR-15/M16-pattern rifles.
Be sure to check out our accompanying article for this video here -
armourersbench.com/
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It amazes me that at ANY POINT of the L85/SA80 development they could have switched to a cheaper, more liked rifle that was already in limited use and produced by a commonwealth nation. They just didn’t.
Honestly knowing the British army they probably didn't want to use an icon of the IRA lol
The government of the day were determined that the next British Army service rifle would be a British design, it didn’t matter to them that the rifle consistently failed to meet the requirements set for it.
Domestic production and political reason of pride I would think are the main reasons.
@@scrappydoo7887 Wrong Armalite.
@@zoiders the ira used SP1s too
This lecture really expands all on the stuff I read about the AR-15 in British service from web forums an then some!
Thanks for watching!
I was a casual user of the AR15 in NI as a member of COP and quite liked it, I used it a fair bit but it wasn’t the tool for every job!
Would certainly like to hear more about your thoughts on them, if youd like to drop me an email at armourersbench@gmail.com.
@@mattyallen3396 it was good when it was needed, just another tool in the kit
COP?
Close Observation Platoon.
@@chickenfishhybrid44 close observation platoon
Wow! Awesome presentation! This highlights the AR15s use in almost every climate. Truly a testament of its modularity, durability and reliability.
Thank you, thanks for watching!
The bad reputation of the AR15/M16 was mainly due to the bad ammunition that the US Army decided to use, and not handing out cleaning kits, since the Army brass has the notion that it did not need cleaning. If I remember correctly they did not use the correct powder for the ammunition, so it was not up to the specs outlines from Armalite/Stoner.
@@100radsbarcorrect. The army, in it's infinite wisdom, decided to change from cleaner burning civilian IMR
(Improved Military Rifle) powder, which was used during testing and produced favorable results- but was also more expensive, to standard ball powder, which was cheaper and the army had tons of. Only after the army decided on this change did they approach Eugene Stoner to get his approval. He said changing ammo will change the weapons performance and would not endorse the change.
When I was in Royal Navy in 1969 on frigate in the West Indies we carried a detachment of Royal marines. They were armed with either M16 or AR 15’s although the army used FN’s.
3:34 Interestingly, during the Indonesia-Malaysia Konfrontasi, the Indonesian Gendarmerie/Brimob also used AR-15 (used specifically by this unit since 1961)
Yes! They had them first and there was one captured and up raw in the UK that we should have them too.
I was a pvt in the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, 3rd battalion, in the 80s.
I was issued an M16 during our tour of South Armagh in 1985. My four man brick consisted of 2x M16s, 1x SLR and 1x GPMG. I also carried an M79 grenade launcher with 6 bombs, when needed, and extra belt ammo for the GPMG. A lot of fire power for 4 men walking down the street.
The guy in the colour photo at 12:50 was in my Coy. I remember him being a good soldier.
Best couple of things I remember about the weapon was that after having an SLR, the M16 plus 80 rounds of ammo was so much lighter and it was very accurate with iron sights.
I have seen so many pictures of various regiments carrying M16s in rural and urban settings. How was its issue decided? Did the soldiers get to choose what they could carry or did the powers that be decide this; if they did, what factors played into their decisions?
@@mh53j from what I remember, it was issued to those of us who achieved a certain score on the ranges.
I was a good shot, so was pleased when I was told that I would be getting one for the tour.
I loved the m16a2 I was issued with in 2004, was always reliable and accurate (as long as the company armourer was competent & I kept it clean). It's the reason why I have so many ar15s now.
From the other side, my 3rd or 4th cousin (can't remember which) loved loved the armalight he had in the 80s.....atleast that's what my great grandma said every saint paddies day.
Working with John Ferguson?
Can you confirm he's a robot with how much he seems to be either on UA-cam, writing books, or helping other UA-camr and sites
He's really a G11 upgraded to human form right?
Haha I've know Jonathan for years and he's definitely an upgraded G11 and a great chap.
@@TheArmourersBench lol that's an excellent response.... I'm also pretty envious of your connections lol
Wait, John Ferguson is suspected to be a robot? It's plausible, I could see it, but the one snag in that theory is, why would a robot need an emotional support STG-44?
The current MOD brief for a new rifle is for a "Armalite" pattern rifle but I can see a staff officer with a thing against blokes being happy changing that decision at the last moment just to destroy morale as usual.
If MoD procurement history is anything to go by they'll take that a little too literally and we'll end up with AR-7s at double the retail cost and fitted "for but not with" magazines.
Considering the NZDF went back to them
@@mattyallen3396 New Zealand were equipped with the L1A1. Had AUGs then adopted LMTs. While they may have issued M16s in Vietnam to SF elements from NZ they were never deployed in more than troop strength (a platoon) and would have been mixed in with L1A1s, L4 Brens and shotguns so it really wasn't an issue weapon by anyone's standards. So they didnt exactly "go back" to the Armalite.
Fascinating talk! Thank you for putting this up
Thank you Matt, thanks for watching.
Good presentation. Sounds like you have made significant progress with your paper. Looking forward to seeing the finished document. Onwards and upwards. Cheers from NZ🇳🇿!
Thanks Michael! It's been very interesting work, really coming together now. I'll share more on here once completed!
Very well done presentation.
Thank you!
Very interesting subject!
Amazing small arms video!!!!
You should consider doing videos on the WW2 films _My Way_ (2011) and _Oba: The Last Samurai_ (2011), and the Korean War films _The Front Line_ (2011) and _Taegukgi_ (2004).
We shall add those to our list, thank you!
Great content Matt 👍🏻
Thanks mate and thanks for the help with some of the sources!
@@TheArmourersBench as always, it's a pleasure to help!
Very cool. Thank you. Were there more presentations or just you?
I was actually the last speaker of a weekend of really interesting talks. Thanks for watching.
I recall seeing ‘Firepower’, it was broadcast on BBC2 and called ‘Top Malo House’, it was a complement to the ‘Behind The Lines’ series you showed a clip of, broadcast in 1985, (Presenter Ian Wooldridge also did ‘In The Highest Tradition’ which came out in 1989).
I have looked but not found ‘Firepower’ but previously have searched just for ‘Top Malo House’.
Very cool
Thanks Joe!
Thanks, did you have any contact with Gurkha veterans of the Indonesian confrontation.i have seen still photos of them using the AR 15/M16 ?.
Sadly not but I would certainly love to speak to them! There's some footage of Gurkha troops training with them in the video.
This was absolutely fascinating! Wish you weren't pressed for time.
I've been trying for years to find out how RSM Pat Chapman and Pete Holdgate got their hands on M16s. Im also wondering what it was like trying to get resupplied with ammo.
I've also seen pictures of regular Army regiments, such as 1DERR and Royal Anglians , carrying M16s in urban and rural settings in Northern Ireland. Did the soldiers have any choice in what they carried or was this dictated from above? If the latter, what circumstances would dictate the M16 over the L1A1?
Being from the US and former military, i have my own AR-15. Nothing fancy, iron sights and all.
I've seen another picture of that guy with the carbine in the Falklands, it has a 14.5" pencil barrel and not the Vietnam style 10" or 11" with the big compensator on it.
Ahhh interesting! I'll have to try and find that. It would still be great to speak to him.
@@TheArmourersBench It's in a book I have somewhere, I'll have a look for it.
Thank you!
@@TheArmourersBench I'll drop you an email.
Thank you, that would be great, armourersbench@gmail.com.
Used it in 81 1st battalion R Irish Rangers in Belize with camo from sandbags wrapped over the plastic hand Guard my flash hider was a cage like the SA80 not like everyone else’s who had 3 prongs
28:50 Sgt Blakey, wouldn't be surprised if he was pathfinders when the photo was taken. He's got a UA-cam channel, prepared pathfinder
Hmmm where have I seen this presentation before? 🤔
At 28:11, this is me, with Pathfinders, not 2 Para. At 28:59 these pictures are from Herrick 13, not 8 (they're my pictures).
Thank you, I hope you don't mind me using them as they were up on Paradata and are some of the few good photos of them in use. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the rifle.
@@TheArmourersBench yeah no worries, they’re in the public domain. Great rifle.
Also with the war in Vietnam , and Aussie & NZ troops , they were not meant to have any UK kit , so we could take the Aussie made L1A1s , and not the Sterlings , so the squad would have 2 x SMGs for scout & sect commander , were replaced in country , with M16s , and after war these came back to Aussie & NZ , and for Inf , replaced SMG use .
? Sterlings ,we had the Owen which was replaced by F1 .The Poms even used the Owen in Malaya. Owen was seen as the best Jungle SMG .Why look at Sterlings?
I know RAR prefered the Mag58 to M60 .
I went through Infantry training as the last to use M16 and SLR . I was issued the F88 when I got to my Battalion and loved it .All I did with a M16 was nurse it because they were so old. Stoppage stoppage stoppage stoppage .
I used brand new M16A2s with the Yanks but still preferred the F88. I dont buy into the M4 cult which is just a shorter cutdown M16.
SLR was a beast and I loved it too.
The "715" at 27:34 has an A2 backsight. I thought 715s had the older pattern?
Typically yes so will have to double check on that, still in the research process at the moment.
PS: I loved the presentation. Great work as always.
Thank you mate, glad you enjoyed it!
Do we know how many AR15's we bought for Borneo in 1964~5?
That's something Jonathan has been working on and I'm hoping I can dig some further numbers up from the National Archives.
Way back when I was a young gunner in 1969 I heard a whisper that one of the older blokes who had served in Borneo had nicked a empty .223 case from the then "mythical" Armalite, about 5 of us queued up at his locker to have a look at it!@@TheArmourersBench
Are there any research papers on the British using soviet weaponry?
Not to my knowledge no.
@@TheArmourersBench do you know if the British Forces ever used east-bloc weaponry?
I changed the term to east-bloc because I wanted a more general field that encompassed all communist countries.
UK special forces certainly familiarised with them and might have used them on operations but more broadly speaking I'm not familiar with any significant use of Eastern bloc small arms I'm afraid!
@@TheArmourersBench No problem. I was only curious.
What a AMAZING & INTERESTING & OUTSTANDING video. Seeing this video makes me wonder why the L85A51 was ever put in service..
The L85A1 is the worst military service rifle on this planet....
There are pics in Australian NZ defender magazine back in the 90s . It shows Brit Inf officers on patrol with Aussie Inf carrying CAR 15s that they picked up in country.
Edit .pics where unofficial of the CAR15 and Brits were from Brit Embassy in Thailand I think. Its in a Vets story of his service.Diggers wanted to steal the rifle
Diamaco C7 rifles!!!
UK company Sterling bought the rights to an AR18 version from Japan. This could have been a useful weapons for the UK. Folding stock version as well as fixed. Not pretty but practical.
SA 80 was based around the A180 internals!
@johnsabini2330 yes true, someone from Stoner made a mock up of a bullpup with their parts, I think to make the point.
The colorization on all those pictures look amazing, it looks really modern
The question I've always had for people like yourself and Jonathan is: What is it like being a firearms enthusiast (I am a "gun nut" and proud of it, but not sure how you'd take being called a "gun nut") in a country where you can't own ANY of the firearms that you presumably love?
Here in the US, we can buy anything we like outside of machine guns. And we actually CAN buy machine guns...it just takes a deep wallet, especially if we are talking about something like a belt-fed. But if we want a (semi-auto) MP5, we just order one online and go down to our local gun shop to pick it up. Same thing goes for an AR or AK or FAL. Really whatever we want.
And the best thing about the present time is that A TON of manufacturers are now making "clones" of the more vintage firearms that we all grew up seeing in pictures and/or movies that sparked our love for firearms. The MP5 is a great example as we now have multiple companies...including H&K themselves...selling MP5s (semi-auto, unfortunately) on the civilian market. I own one myself and absolutely love it. Harrington and Richardson was just bought by Palmetto State Armory and they are going to start making M16A1 clones...the exact rifles seen in most of this slideshow...in addition to other vintage AR-type rifles.
I just can't imagine what it must be like to be someone who truly loves guns but lives in a country where your oppressors...sorry, I meant "government"...won't allow you to own ANY of them.
Well they can own guns although the paperwork is rather annoying to deal with.
On the upsides they dont have to worry about mass shootings every otherweek and criminals are much easier to handle even larger criminal organization. And if any politicians tries to do anything "Oppresive" there going to find how fast they can go from being in office to ending up in jail cuz we have a thing called laws and constitution to prevent such a thing from happening.
Something a certain gun loving country population is still unable to comprehend and understand even after they copied it from us
I hate to be “that guy”, but okay - AR15s are/were not military arms… M16s are, since they had the ability to go full auto.. great talk, thank you for posting! M16s were my first duty weapon.. I retired using the M4..I got to experience the evolution of the platform over 40 years - at least with the US side.. I didn’t have the honor of running into any British forces in Iraq in 08. I didn’t know the British still have uses for the platform. Extremely interesting talk
Yeah, they're basically the same thing, only difference being firing modes, but aside from that, which is a negligible difference, it doesn't matter anyway because we have a right to have them.
At the time the British military purchased them the AR-15 was just the brand name and didn't differentiate between civilian semi and military select-fire. So some of the first guns the UK procured were select-fire Colt-Armalite AR-15s.
@@TheArmourersBench fascinating, thank you for responding, your content is really well done, and I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Thank you! Will have more on this topic later this year and lots of historical and current content on the way! Thanks for watching
The manual that we had referred to them as an AR15, bearing in mind we bought ours before the US Army and it didn’t have the M designation back then
All of the weapons being tested for the ranger program are quite good contenders. Its the Germans vs the Americans again. Whoever wins this contract will definitely satisfy the Rangers.
No real weak options there. Some better than others in various ways but it will be interesting to see what is chosen!
I suspect cost will rear it's ugly head and they will opt for a rifle with AR like controls rather than an actual AR15/M16 derivative. My money is on one of the many AR18 derived systems yet again and very likely the Bren 2.
@@zoiders Nope. The contract specifically calls for an AR15 derivative.
@@FDCNC And they will warp that definition to suit the budget. New to soldiering are you?
@@zoiders Yes. But they could just buy the Colt Canada C8 then and call it a day and cancel the program. So I don't see your point, the rifle selected will be an AR15 derivative either by hook or crook.
It would probably be the m16
An Irish Freedom Fighters favourite weapon love them
If you’re in a unit that is actually likely to use your rifle(e.g. sas) you get an m16 derivative. If you’re just going to be standing around, you get the civil servant(it doesn’t work and it can’t be fixed)
Round objects, sir. L85A2 and A3 are issued near universally amongst HMAF including teeth arms. When their mission requires something a little more compact, lighter, anonymous or modular the C8 is issued. Current versions of the L85 are right at the top end of accuracy and reliability for comparable service rifles. The ergonomics are a bit weird, it's overweight for what it does and per-unit costs have crept from "high" to "ridiculous" but it's fine. And has been for nearly two decades now.
@@lordsummerisle87 you know something is British when the highest praise you can legitimately give it is “it’s fine” lmao
@@jb76489 hilarious, except I praised its accuracy and reliability, which even its critics admit are at the upper end of comparable service rifles.
BTW the joke you're thinking of is "doesn't work and can't be *fired*", which hasn't been accurate since the A2 variant was fielded in 2001. It's still accurate about civil servants though.
@@lordsummerisle87 Show me somebody accuracy testing an SA80, and not just going by feelings. Do it. I dare you. The factory standard for the SA80's accuracy, in a lead sled, is like 5 MOA. That's nothing special and almost any AK you find in the wild passes that easily with ball ammunition, in fact I think you'd be hard pressed to find a rifle platform that struggled with that.
The truth of the matter is, neither you nor I nor anybody without access to an SA80 they can do whatever they want with knows how accurate an average rack grade L85A2/3 is. Almost none are in civilian hands, and if anybody ever rigorously tested it, measured it, repeated it to see, I haven't found it yet. Nobody knows the SA80 is "accurate".
@@lordsummerisle87 why are British people like this? Besides the inbreeding of course
50,000 British troops in Borneo, really?
We were knocking on for a strength of half a million back then and that wasn't including the colonial police with their locally raised forces.
There were a few Aussies too. Only around 3,500. We were winding up for Vietnam as Confrontasi was winding down though.
It was 12 battalions of infantry and one battalion of SAS I believe at the peak of British forces. There were contributions by Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia and Singapore as well. I don’t think in North Borneo and Sarawak there were 50,000 at one time but there would have been over the course of the confrontation with all the units rotated. All 8 Gurkha battalions were committed.
Of the 317 KIA about half were British, a quarter ANZACS and a quarter Gurkhas, Malays and Singaporeans.
Undoubtedly quite a few Brit spec ops and mountain troops loved the lightweight of the AR/M16 series.
But if they'd ACTUALLY had to use AR15/M16 series for a prolonged period in mountain or desert settings?
They'd have began wishing for the extra range, penetration, and terminal effect on target of their 7.62x51 FAL's and L1A1's.
Much like quite a few U.S. and allied troopers began to wish for harder hitting general issue rifles that had more range, during the recent Iraq and Afghanistan elements of the recent Global War on Terror.
Dude are you actually trying to mansplain mountain and arctic warfare to the British SF? 😅🤣😂
@zoiders
Dude.....
Do you ACTUALLY think THEY are the only ones who do either type of op???
The Armalite AR-15 was also used alot by the IRA during the troubles in northern Ireland.
Not really.
Most were AR-18. very similar looking.
@@dudududu1926 But there were also some AR-15s.
It was not designed for jungle use at all.
But it was seen as being suitable for the jungle role.
Compared to the SLR/ L1a1/C1, it really was. Light fast pseudo-carbine that can unload full auto. Plus, all things considering, the Brits didn't have the army bias for the M14 like the Americans had, they would have been given properly chromed lined M16s that may have even ran the original IMR stick powder.
And for specifically, British-Canadian(Canadian AR-15s accepted into British service, although Canadian military versions would have still fared well) variants of the of the M16 like the L119a1 and later L119a2, those rifles were designed to run, rain or shine, in the artic, tropics and desert. They are overgassed to make sure the gun keeps running even if significantly fouled, as well as having heavy barrels. Those guns are very reliable and much more handy in the jungle than L1a1 or even L85 due to reloading being easier because it's an AR-15 vs a Bullpup.
Sir, outstanding presentation! I’m extremely impressed with your depth and level of research regarding this weapon. I love this type of obscure (but still significant) subject in military history. I especially appreciated your highlighting the weapons use in MOOTW (Military Operations Other Than War). 🫡
Ahh thank you, very kind of you! Thanks for watching.