Audiophile USB Cables - Are they worth it?
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2015
- Video thread responses from baldmetalnerd: • Can different USB Cabl...
Conclusions: • My Final Conclusions A...
This is a "Hi-Fi Topic" video: In this video I show my journey of discovery with USB Cables as used with Audio equipment. The video isn't meant to be a complete guide to USB Audio, but rather just what I have been doing with my set up and what I've discovered. I'm just getting the information out there.
No music is played in this video.
Featured Music Vinyl:
Tinariwen - Emmaar
Featured Music CD:
Tinariwen - Emmaar
Kruder & Dorfmeister - The K&D Sessions
Feathers - If All Now Here
Featured Music Download / Rip:
Melody Gardot - Currency of Man (24/44.1)
Tinariwen - Emmaar (24/96)
Kruder & Dorfmeister - The K&D Sessions
Leviathan - Scar Sighted
Feathers - If All Now Here
Featured Hi-Fi:
Denon - DA-300USB -- DAC/Headphone Amp
Rotel - RCD 855 -- CD Player
Musical Fidelity - KW SACD -- SACD Player
Grado - SR80 -- Headphones
Grado - Headphone Extension Cable (4.5m)
QED - Performance USB A-B -- USB Cable (1m)
iFi - Mercury -- USB Cable (50cm)
iFi - Gemini -- USB Cable (75cm)
iFi - Micro iUSB Power -- USB PSU/Filter
iFi - iPurifier -- USB Filter
Belkin - Gold Series Hi-Speed - USB Cable (6ft)
Profigold - USB Cable (1m) & (5m) - Useless!!!
Non Brand - USB Cable (1m)
VC stands for the "Vinyl Community"
I love this video. It really gives me good insight and thought into how I play my music and what I can expect when looking for PC audio fidelity. Thank you!
I really appreciate how thorough your testing was. This seems to confirm what my ears have been telling me for years. Everything makes a difference to some extent.
Thanks for your dedication in exposing this "hidden" reality. My findings FULLY concur with your findings. The differences, like you discovered, can be vast if one wishes to enjoy true "hi-fi" sound from / to a computer. Thanks very much!
Good to see you back brother. Didn't understand it but I was riveted. Waiting on another vinyl video.
Good to see you back, Tudor!
Also cool to see the Kruder & Dorfmeister sessions.
Can't wait for more vinyl related stuff!
Thanks for sharing :)
Armien
Welcome back dude! Another cracking vid
Ace, sorry for pestering on FB :)
I have that very QED cable myself with an Arcam irDAC. You got me thinking about getting a better cable
I already have my eye on a power filter. I look forward to the computer audio series and thanks again
Great vid - thanks for sharing! I, too, have an iFi rig and it changed my mind about digital audio. I still enjoy all formats!
Thank you very much for your video. You have cracked the digital noise problem.
Excellent experiment/experience by a user.
6 YEARS LATER , i discovered this video , much of which is still relevant , in the interim i also have been on a similar journey to clean up the sound from a MAC i only use the other type to gaze through if you get my drift . IFI now manufacture a power station and hi end mains cable to further improve the sound. Of course it s a perpetual quest to keep searching for that eureka moment when you reach the end of the rainbow and hear the magic that always seem just out of reach . Its a great journey able one that keeps the average joe impoverished .
Really good video
I use an Audioquest Jitterbug which makes an audible difference in my system. It fixes the jitter, or noise issue. The cable itself was never an issue. My usb cable is also 15cm long as there cannot be any positive value in having a cable any longer than it needs to be.
Try iFi iPurifier3 USB B. It was mind blowing compared to JitterBug. I kept the JitterBug in the source but it made no difference if I removed it, iFi iPurifier3 did wonders. I was considering upgrading the cable bit it seems it doesn't matter as iFi iPurifier3 reworks the signal just before getting into my DAC (Topping DX7s).
Thanks for this thoughtful and thought-provoking video. Could it be that different pc motherboard designs cause the different observations of USB noise made by other commentators, as the sharing of USB and, say, LAN, on the same bus could result in more noise? I use toslink to connect my pc to my Topping E30 DAC (and coax from the E30 to an L30 headphone amp) which seems to obviate the problem.
Thanks for the video. I currently have the iFi iDSD and the iTube and both are fantastic products. I'm a huge fan of the iFi range and I'm definitely going to be adding the iUSB3 and the Gemini cable. You should also look at getting a dedicated music PC something such as a fanless NUC. My setup now consists of a NAS with all my music stored onto it with a copy of JRiver media centre installed on a PC upstairs. I've then got one of these little fanless NUC PC's in the living room with another copy of JRiver installed. I can now stream my entire music library to it and the great thing is I can use my mobile devices as a remote.
50% of the people commenting have not watched the video. Thank you for sharing your findings. Naturally, I am skeptic about the differences in quality a usb cable should make, but you seem to make a strong case. By the way, is it possible to use a cable without power lines? Also, it is important to remember that these findings should be related to the way your DAC deals with said noise. But you stated that very cleary of course.
From February on I will be moving to a Moon Audio 280D, will definitely look more into this, thanks again!
Hello Tudor. How are you doing?
Very informative video.
In my humble opinion, the noise comes from internal power supplies, as Ashley Cox said in her comment.
It is really interesting that there are HiFi USB cables and noise filters for them. I didn't know.
My question is: could you obtain the same sound quality using the analog output of an HiFi PC sound card? Sorry if I bother with my question. I know there are really expensive sound cards out there. I was wondering whether they worth the money or not.
I hope you are fine. This summer is being really hot over here.
A big hug. Take care.
tuturtle Oh, I'm sorry about my confusion in gender name Ashley if you are reading this I apologise.
Thank you so much for the information Tudor. It is very appreciated.
Autumn weather, that is cool. We had almost 40°C the other day ...
Sorry about your problems uploading the video. You did a great job as always.
Have a nice Sunday and week. Thanks for your response :)
The Lavricables Reference Silver USB A-B 30 cm made me a believer of importance usb cables. And it was not so expensive considering the benefits... And now I have ordered The Lavricables Ultimate Silver Dual USB A-B because I need another pair and a slightly longer cable.
That was a very informative video Tudor, thanks for doing that! I learned a few things.
I first had to put aside my horror that if you are using the Rotel model I think you are, you were using it as transport and bypassing a wonderful TDA1541A (S1 ?) DAC. I have to ask, do you normally do this when playing CDs because you prefer the DAC in the Denon? I have no experience with the Denon so for playing CDs, I don't know if it would be worth doing it that way.
One of my CD players is a Nakamichi CDP-2A (the American version of the CDP-2E) which has a TDA1541A that sounds wonderful (to me!). However, it has started skipping intermittently. Cleaning the laser lens didn't help and fiddling for hours with the tracking pot (as I don't have an oscilloscope) didn't help. I'm not an electronics repair person at all, but because the skipping is usually on later tracks on various CDs I suspect it is a motor issue and the speed is not adjusting correctly. Anyway, long story longer, I've never used a CD player as a transport to an external DAC (the Nak doesn't have digital outputs) and don't know if that's worth pursuing. I suspect other thrift-store CD finds you've shown in the past (Marantz CD63 I think?) might have a poorer DAC and might benefit being used as a transport, but not necessarily the Rotel.
I do have another CDP-2A that works fine, and in another room my new-ish Marantz CD5004 really sounds great. I just have a personal lean towards the older gear.
Oh, side note, one flaw I noticed in your blind test is that when you are testing audiophile gear you probably shouldn't be using an analogue knit cap. The fibers between the cans and your ears can attract dust if not freshly laundered and that dust will distort what you hear. And depending on the fabric there might be the introduction of static electricity as well which can loop back into the cans. I do suggest upgrading to an audiophile knit cap. It does make a difference. ;-)
Cheers! Tom
tuturtle That's hilarious that such an old DAC is more pleasing to you than the new Denon! Again, I appreciate your feedback; you've got years of experience with so many different pieces of gear and the information you share is invaluable to me.
I think we're on the same page as far as the skipping Nakamichi where it's probably better to replace it. When you mention that there's an easy NOS mod for old Philips-based rather than Sony-based CD players, what determines which is which? Does that refer to the CD mechanism? If so I may hunt down an old Magnavox or Marantz with a 1541 as those seem to pop up now and then.
Thanks again!
Cheers, Tom
Thanks Tudor, I've seen the LAMPIZATOR page. Not sure how hardcore I want to go on modding an old CD player. If I have time on my hands one day, I may give it a go.
The hesitation on spending big bucks on an old CD player, of course, is not knowing how much life is left in it. If you're going to spend USD $500 or more, and your money doesn't grow on trees, it's hard not to buy a well-regarded newer player. If I go that route (and I may) then the Marantz CD6005 is probably in my sights.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll keep my eyes peeled for a 705ESD just in case.
Cheers, Tom
HiFiMe, the DIY company that sells the DAC I use actually sell a USB filter that isolates the power from the usb connection because of the ground loop issues that affect sound by connecting poorly shielded equipment together (computer to computer has some terrible noise that can come through). Luckily, I don't seem to have this issue since I just use a raspberry pi and a usb dac and there isn't nearly the amount of noise being generated, apparently.
Hi,
I'm thinking about getting more into computer audio and this video was very interesting. I'm curious about whether you have tried connecting an old amp to your computer using a mini jack - RCA and how it compares to USB. Would you just end up with loads of interference? I also don't know if the amps would sound worse than they should because of the PC being the source. I suppose a DAC would help a lot?
+tuturtle Thanks, that helped a lot! I look forward to watching your future Computer Audio videos.
Out of curiosity (and this will ultimately depend on the quality of the relevant ancillary components installed onto the mobo of your PC), try installing a quality TosLink cable between your PC and DAC. I have no idea whether this will better the SQ you are getting from your current IFi rig, however one huge advantage optical cables have over any copper or silver wired cable, whether they be USB or digital coaxial in nature, is that optical cables are immune to RFI. I'd be interested in the results of any tests you might perform as a consequence if you are so inclined.
Just out of curiosity, there are other solutions for dealing with USB noise. Schiit Wyrd and Gustard U12 (U10 too) both come to mind and I have heard good things about what they both do to improve sound quality. What drove you to the iFi solutions versus either of those two or any others that are out there. Can you compare the iFi solutions to either the Wryd or U12 options?
+Mark Badia Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! I've heard good things about the iFi gear and I got the items cheap 2nd hand. I may try other stuff in the future. Cheers Tudor
hi there,
i appreciate your time and effort making this video .
why dont you try usb stick DAC like audioquest dragon to save you money on expensive usb cables.
Very interesting - Thx!
Thanks for this video. My computer is over 12 feet from my DAC which then goes to my stereo system. How do I cap that distance? Unfortunately I cannot move computer/stereo closer together. I could place the DAC next to my computer and run shielded RCA cables to my vintage Marantz. What might you suggest?
Bob S buy a mini pc I use Beelink
Nice well done; I listen to music mostly on a portable dac amp connected to a phone as the host - I'm certain decent cables will make a difference alone with a jitter bug connector..
Have you tried an upgraded USB card?
Thanks for Sharing this info mate
All up how much did you spend on all them iFI products
Cheers Jack Australia
+jack turtle Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! All the iFi products were purchased secondhand. I can't remember the exact price over all, but it was about 2/3rds of the Retail price, maybe a little less. The ifi iusb Power unit made the biggest difference, so I would start there. It comes with two basic USB cables. Cheers Tudor
You should have tested cables of the same length, I think as to audio use, because timing is essential with audio, causing jitter if not timed correctly.
Yes, the USB cable will make a difference but the biggest problem is that you're using a standard, off the shelf, PC as a source. A standard PC has a tremendous amount of noise on the USB bus. You'd be better off using a music server or streamer of some type that was designed as a audio device then the USB cable will has less noise to deal with from the get go. You can't fix a source problem downstream, the problem is originating with your PC. As you said, both the CD Player and the PC are transporting digital information, ones & zeros, but the CD Player was designed from the ground up to be an audio device. The noise, as much as possible, was designed out of it. PC designers and manufacturers don't care about sound, they aren't creating audio equipment.
+tuturtle I was thinking the same thing as Arthur before I read the comments. I don't have any 'special' USB cables, but do have a self-built PC with a motherboard that has dedicated DAC USB ports. Advertised as having cleaner power delivery, they can also have the power completely switched off, so that you can feed data only, as long as your DAC is self-powered. Mine is an SMSL M8 (uses an ESS Sabre K2M chip) powered by an iFi iPower 9v adapter (I couldn't really tell a difference from the supplied adapter BTW), and I have no problems with noise. DSD files, particularly, sound excellent. I *did* have noise problems with the supposedly isolated onboard sound solution (Creative 3d) as I could hear static whenever I moved my mouse.
I enjoyed viewing your complete video. It shows an electronic problem which could be greatly reduced by quality shielding and filtering. To me the filtering of the power supply lines inside your used DAC housing is bad. How are the CD-player and DAC-housing connected to the mains, by grounded or floating wall plugs (without the ground connected)? Is your mains grouding cabling correctly connected in your house? I agree with the others that the digital signal has never an analog component - it is all codet in 0 and 1. You proved file copying takes always the same time with good and bad quality USB cables....no bit get lost. Your bad cables only transport noise to the analog part of your DAC.
You could also have spend your money to connect an optical cable between your CD player and the DAC like someone suggested. Run the optical to electrical transducer at the DAC side, the DAC itself and the audio amplifier to your headphones from a 5V Lithium rechargable battery completely isolated from any ground or wiring. Finaly mount all equipment at the DAC side inside a closed tin surrounded with copper foil to block magnetic and electrical noises to the analog part of your DAC. Enjoy listening...
Wiard Beek, Netherlands.
cool video. your usb rig costs more than my entire audio "system".
The problem comes from the noise generated by the power supply in your Sony PC. I have a cheapo DAC/ADC with it's own built in USB cable. Connected directly to my Dell laptop and listening through headphones, the noise generated is clearly evident. Now switch over to an Apple iMac, they must have selected better parts as the noise completely disappears and the sound equals a CD player. Your cables are making a difference, but as you say, they're cleaning up the noise. Not altering the data.
If you switched over to TOSLINK (if your PC outputs it) then I bet you'd find no difference in cables as that doesn't carry power.
You said it yourselfe: DIGITAL signal
Digital signals are not affected by the cable. USB communication works with a logic high lvl of 5 V. As long as your noise on the cable doesnt exceed around 3 V it wont be picked up as a high or 1. Same thing for logic low of course.
Just use a shielded cable and you wont have any problems.
+Iceteaboy99 Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! I agree with you, but I can also prove through empirical evidence (gained through blind tests) that different digital cables alter the sound and picture of the equipment used with them, USB, Coax, toslink, HDMI etc. However, I cannot explain why with any certainty, nor would it appear can anyone else, and I have looked long and hard for accurate info of the net. But empirical evidence is reality (with blind tests removing the possibility of placebo) while hypostasis, no matter how well argued or supported is just theory. I will cover this subject more in future videos, Cheers Tudor
Interesting AB test. As the 1s & 0s during your USB data transfer speed test were unaffected by whatever cable used, it seems that your particular PC & Denon USB DAC combo introduces the noise and artefacts at some point in the conversion to analogue audio I'm assuming? All that's happening, is as the shielding level and USB cable quality improves less analogue noise gets introduced by the Denon's DAC passing to it from the PC along the cable. Important to remember, PCs USB ports are designed for data transfer, not data data transfer that gets converted to analogue audio and listened to in real-time conversion. Just plug a decent pair of headphones in any headphone jack on most computers and the signal is full of noise, squelches and electrical noise etc. Even moving the mouse on the screen can sometimes be heard for example.
Personally, I I use an Apogee Groove USB Headphone DAC Amp with my PC and the noise is inaudible and sound stage is not affected by the cable whatsoever. The cable either works or it doesn't. However, that's designed solely for USB audio and uses high end ESS Sabre DACs. If you only need USB audio for headphones, I think you would be better selling the Denon and the expensive USB cables and moving to something like the Apogee Groove designed for this USB task. You can pick them up second hand for about £100 now if you can wait, otherwise they are around £250.
Thanks Mate , now I understand why my Dac is not sound as good as it should I tried with Vinyl rca to dac and it blew my headphones and went back to DSD and Flac from My iMac and it sound terrible absolute garbage,
One more question is there any way I can get better sound from my vinyl which has RCA out put to DaC ? My vinyl also has usb out put the one u showed but it the other way round but , so my DAC input and Vinyl our put via usb are the same
the problem is most likely in the denon dacs usb chip inside, with coaxial it goes directly to the main DAC chip
I appreciate your video. I will absolutely get a USB audiophile grade USB cable for my PC and DAC. Thank You for you analysis.
This is an easy test. Connect your high speed USB device, e.g. a hard disk/flash drive using your audiophile grade USB cable. If hi-speed mode (480 Mbps instead of 12 Mbps, the old USB 1 standard) fails, it is a bad DIY digital cable not even compliant with USB 2 standards.
There are differences between USB cables, the build quality varies tremendously and that matters a lot especially with longer cables.
I use a mac mini as a music server to my stereo. I use the iTunes front end and then BitPerfect to avoid whatever apple does to audio. A 16ft USB cable runs over to my Schiit Bitfrost and that feeds my Rogue preamp. I've tried a few usb cables and have found the Belkin Gold Series to be better built and gives significantly better audio quality than generic usb cables (Monoprice); the difference in the sound is striking.
i had tried using optical Toslink cables and the Belkin USB cable sounds better than that as well.
These Belkin usb cables are getting hard to find but it's worth seeking them out, I think it may be about as good as your going to get without paying hundreds of dollars for specialty audiophile usb cables.
Yup---the Belkin is much longer, adding resistance/impedance and distortion in every extra millimeter.
I think one thing worth mentioning is Where sound is actually coming from. As this is where the noise is introduced.
The noise is coming from your computer, and it's also worth noting that with an all in one computers like the one you have, the components are packed in there so tightly your USB is going to have more noise than a tower with a dedicated USB card. I also would believe that high-end USB 3.1 cards would be far superior to USB 1.1, 2.0 or even USB 3.0 ports. although 3.0 is still very good and industry standard.
I've heard the Gemini isn't compatible with every DAC. is this true?
Did you try the Russ Andrews USB cables made with Kimber cable - they are excellent?
did you ever compare it to a $10 USB cable
Hi :) woulnt help just to buy DF jitterburg?
well said.
I greatly appreciate the effort that went into this video.
I'm planning on buying an AudioQuest Cinnamon cable (super expensive) mostly as the color matches my Scarlett 6i6. Does anybody have any thoughts about that? Is it worth it?
Thanks.
Update: I can't hear any difference between Cinnamon and free USB printer cable. I'll ship it back.
Great Video! Thanks! If you don't know of him, i suggest Hanz Beekhuyzen's channel... he breaks down digital audio like no one else.
i have a large full size tower which i plug into a RME ADI 2 DAC ,
i just use a resonable quality usb cable , i have tried a high priced
usb lead and i coud not tell any difference , this is a £1000 dac
and focal clear headphones , i only use a 0.7m cable ,
what i have noticed is i have a lot of usb ports on the front and back
of pc and all the rear ports ( 8 of them ) all gave me noise ,
but the front which are a long way from the mother board and
sound is perfect , only thing i thought about is a pci card which
are sold for low noise and some have seperate power supply as
think thats were the noise comes from the power ....
its worth trying all your ports as there is a difference ,
some of mine arre usb 2 , some are usb 3 , some are 3.2 ?
Interesting video. Seems like you were skeptical and had a plan to systematically rule out what worked for you and what didn't. It does make me wonder though, if the cable is compensating for the poor output from the computer power supply or the poor input section of the DAC and if the money is better spent on a cheap cable with quality DAC that can filter out the noise properly.
I do notice that the "winning" cable has two ferrite cores on it (perhaps a third in the middle), which are basically magnets that absorb RFI. Perhaps noise wass being transferred somehow from your computer to your DAC. I have ferrite cores on lots of things here, since they can be bought for $1 or $2. I wonder if you bought ferrite cores and then tried the test, would you notice the same result, since the cables aren't quite the same.
You mentioned the iFi - Micro iUSB Power having a bigger impact than the cable change, but what about the iFi - iPurifier - USB Filter? If you can only do one which would you say has the biggest impact on overall sound quality?
+Mark Badia Hello, The iFi USB Power makes a much bigger difference than the iPurifier. But the difference is different. The USB power just removes noise, and does it very well, that's it! The iPurifier alters the sound, subjectively, I would say it's makes the sound more musical, it's the last piece in the chain. Cheers Tudor
+tuturtle I'm sorry but what does that mean "more musical"?? And how can you explain that when even in the video you acknowledge that it's only affecting digital data transfer? Even accepting possible noise coming from poorly constructed cables, the "purifier" device doesn't make any sense.
+iTubeYou I totally agree with you, it makes no sense, and "more musical" is a purely subjective term on my part, the music flows better and is more enjoyable to listen to, maybe better timing?. But the iPurifier alters the sound in a different way to the other iFi USB products. It's presence can easily be identified in blind listening tests. The product claims to affect EMI. The notion that it's just 1's and 0's and that's the be all and end all, is clearly not the whole truth. Can I explain it scientifically?, NO, nor can anyone else, it would appear, as I have looked long and hard on the net for concise info on the subject and found none! Yet the simplistic technical narrative that most people follow and believe is clearly a half truth at best. I wish some independent scientists would study Hi-Fi products in depth and publish the results! Cheers Tudor
Hi- I can't seem to find an direct answer to this question I want to buy the Gemini Cable. I have the Iusb cleaner and currently have a Cambridge Dac magic 100, and it has its own power supply. Can I use the Gemini cable to plug it in the USB port into my Dac with both the Gemini power and audio connected to the Iusb?? Thank you for your help.
Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! Short answer: YES! In fact you have to use both USB connectors on the iFi Gemini cable even if you don't need the power from the USB, it won't work otherwise. And the Gemini cable gives a noticeable improvement over using a single cable like the iFi Mercury. Cheers Tudor
Thank you so much! I love your video..
Definitive conclusion that, with a particular computer's sound card, paired with a particular model of DAC, usb cable quality makes a difference. Look forwarding to see this tested with other equipment, to learn how useful cable quality is with other equipment.
Watched this video many years ago. This month I bought the IFI mercury cable (demo) and IFI Purifier 3. Oh good grief, I could just slap myself .. you were dead right on. Why didn't I try this sooner.
Which one provides the bigger difference? If you could only have one, which would you choose?
@@dialecticalmonist3405 The filters make a bigger difference than the cables.
I had a SPECIAL PRIVATE VIEWING OF THIS VID so this is the SECOND time I'm watching this, I'm just that DEDICATED, right?? :D
Anyway, first off, I'm so glad you got the beginning and end of the vid fixed! it must've been such a pain to upload it multiple times! :\
I still need to check out that Tinariwen album, I love it when records come with a cd!
Glad you got that Kruder & Dorfmeister vinyl in finally; do you have an extra digital copy since you have the cd in this vid, I think it came with it? *snort* I only streamed that so far, I might be able to find the mp3s if not though, I doubt I'll get the vinyl anytime soon due to my drought, hah
BEST PART OF VID: that blind listening test! (glad you included it twice in the vid, ahah!) :D thumbs down, thumbs down, thumbs up! :) what type of room is that by the way? it looks as small as a closet :O I'd probably get claustrophobic there, hahah! I can see your cds though, so I'd prob. still enjoy that tiny room, heh
Yay to the Feathers cd I got you showing up
tuturtle Hahah sorry :P
Ahhh okay, remaster, cool cool! I'll try to look it up; I'm sure I can find the mp3s :) I dunno what version was up on youtube, but that's what I heard :D
Oooo tsk tsk :P nah, I haven't cleaned a record since April, so yeaaaah, I'm just as slow with cleaning... I really should, maybe when Chelsea Wolfe comes innnn :P
Hmm okay, landing corridor; is that like a hallway? and whoa to all those cds! I actually thought about getting rid of more of mine 'cause I simply am tired of having a messy closet; just keep the ones on the shelf and a few others, hah. my shelf can only hold 500 cds :\
Yep, I figured that :) reason I said if I ever change and use USB audio, I'll keep this stuff in mind, I'm even slow with plugging my receiver to my laptop for better sound currently though, hahah. any music is certainly better than none though, very true
tuturtle Maybe some do, but I never heard it in that context; really only with planes :D
I might not, I do know I haven't listened to the closet cds in a decade though :\ only the drawer cds and shelf cds get played :P
tuturtle Hah yes, sounds like a plan! :D I'll let you know what the closet cds are... nothing bad, just stuff I got tired of; mostly indie, same as my listened to often ones. there's some cd-rs in there though that I doubt you want, I should just toss those, some I triple stacked in a sleeve :P don't you love my cracked cd-r cases? hahah
hopefully you can compare the upgraded iFi usb products: micro iusb 3.0 and the just released nano iusb 3.0
+jc's place Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! Probably not going to happen, but you never know. Cheers Tudor
Let me make this simple for you. A USB cable transmits 2 things: data and power. Your testing showed that the data appears to be reliably and consistently transmitted and also that different cables sound significantly and repeatedly different. The obvious conclusion is that the power connection is transmitting noisey power from the computer into the DAC. Things which isolate or filter the power to remove the noise in the power, keeping it from getting into the DAC sound better. Some cables can do that as well as add on devices like the Schiit Wyrd, the audioquest filter device and other like devices. Obviously you did not try different computers or different DACS but if you had, you would find that some computers have noisier power supplies than others and some DACs are better designed to reject incoming power noise. You focused on one thing on the chain, the cable, without finding the source and solution of the problem. Cables can help, unpredictably, because they are not the cause, nor are they designed to actually solve the problem.
You are 100% correct. However, tuturtle did state in the first reply above "I carried out tests with 3 different computers and 6 different Hi-Fi USB audio devices, and got the same results across the board"
That DAC has it's own power source (hence why it has a lit screen before he plugs in the USB cable), it doesn't rely on USB power for anything hence trying to make the dirty power argument is pretty much moot here and in the case for most DACs as only very few rely on USB power to power the device. So please try again in your audiophile cables are better argument.
Then you go onto at least two of the cables (skimmed this video) have ferrite chokes on them... USB.org, the ones who deal with the standard daily actually say..
"Most problems are the result of EMI "control" components like ferrite beads mounted on the signal lines. Often, these manage to destroy the integrity of the signal as well as make emissions worse."
www.usb.org/developers/usbfaq#sig4
Showing that many of these "audiophile" USB cables would not even meet the USB certification.
I've just tested Tidal on my PC to my Rotel 1592 + B&W 705 s2 speakers using £3 USB cable then from my PC to a Babyface pro then to the Rotel amp using £70 merlin RCA . No difference in sound.
Use optical, problem solved. No need for ridiculously overpriced crap.
Yes I agree completely. The fault is the design of the DAC for allowing power from the USB cable into it's circuits. The jitter argument from transmission delays across the cable is also poor design on behalf of the DAC.
It's notjust the cable that ruins the sound but the PC/MB/Windows that fuck it up. Anyway, you sound honest enough to give it a shot . Just that it is a 800€ shot
By the way I confirm My Naim CD5X sounds way better than anything that comes out of my computer via USB DAC.
I am using a modified ASUS Xonar STX SC plugged to the DAC of my Marantz 6005 amp. using Micromega coaxial cable.
Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! Yes I agree that the PC is the problem. The Ifi products are an expensive way of solving the problem. I still prefer the sound of a good CD Player over computer audio. Cheers Tudor
wow what an excellent investigation and conclusions. thank you!
you pretty much said it all but I'll just throw in my 2 cents.
I understand it this way:
1. USB data transfer is bit perfect, so the DAC should be able to produce a perfect analog signal out of it.
2. The only way that DAC generated "perfect" output signal becomes BAD, is the electromagnetic interference on the analog components of your Audio Interface.
that means that we need to:
a. break the ground loops in all present connections (electrical power / USB / amplifier / speakers)
b. break data loops on USB cables (using a dongle with an air monolithic block transformer), which also helps (a) and acts as the USB data signal repeater / mini "data" signal amplifier / purifier
c. shield all connections as much as we can (triple shielding) and avoid running power lines (both electric and USB power) in parallel to the data cables.
so in summary, yes USB transmission is data bit perfect, but the analog part of your audio system will be affected by the electromagnetic fields around it, and THAT IS THE PROBLEM we need to deal with
PS
that's why I basically have loop breakers at EVERY STAGE of my systems.
1. my digital piano unbalanced output is using 1 foot top quality shielded patch TS Mono cables, that go right into the Direct Box Transformer
2. Direct Box lifts the ground / breaks ground loop, and outputs a signal to balanced XLR lines (also triple shielded top quality XLR cables)
3. balanced XLR cables enter my Digital Interface
4. Digital Interface uses top quality as short as possible triple shielded USB cable
5. At the end of Digital Interface USB cable, there is USB Isolator dongle, which uses air monolithic block transformers, that separate both data lines, and USB power
6. Then the laptop (NOT desktop) runs on the battery (unplugged charger), to process the data from Audio Interface / record music etc.
7. USB MIDI cable also uses top quality triple shielded cable with 2 ferro chokes on each end, AND another USB Isolator with air monoblock transformer
it took me months to set this up, and I had to spend a lot of money to replace every single component of my audio system, to finally get nearly pure silence at the maximum gains and amplification.
it is still NOT PERFECT! I can still hear SOME noise at the maximum gains, but nobody listens to music at the maximum gains. at this point, it is just a desire to have a perfect silence at maximum gains = holy grail = Monty Python theory
CHEERS
Great video. That computer though, it's quite old! You should upgrade!
Really good video and very informative.
I highly recommend trying the ifi range of headphone amps and built in dacs.
DSD audio is a revelation and far exceeds cd standard 16 bit 44hz.
I have a question ⁉️
USB A to C 3ft , Purified usb filter
Im looking for 3ft cable
also purified usb filter I can't use in the car plus 💻 laptop
I would be using white these equipment.
Samsung Note 10plus
Astell&Kern KANN Alpha
Also do I have to replace , where I plugged mainly from car audio hardware if i do, can't I purchase from here.
i understand cables is good as where you plugged them.
so where I'm planing to plugged in my car is oem Android carplay.
thanks
Thumbs up for Belkin cable :) are you from south east?
tuturtle Thanks, I do enjoy your videos as well. I used to be in high end audio, but all was sold and now I'm into vintage Pioneer. Really good fun collecting. You are welcome should you have a journey to Kent.
The noise issue (for the most part) with USB has to do with the power supply regulation inside your computer. USB provides 5V DC to power any connected devices. That power is provided by your motherboard, traveling through the buses (or connections) on the board. Computer power supplies are of a switch mode design, and thence their output is noisy. Motherboards typically don't feature any noise suppression (as for most peripherals it isn't necessary), and therefore there's noise on the USB line. This is why USB cables with separate power supply lines, and completely independent power supplies are available.
It does make me laugh a little how an old Rotel CD player sounds better than USB audio. For the price of one of those high-end USB cables, you could buy 3 or 4 of those CD players. People wonder why I still buy CDs and don't use computer audio (aside form APple's AIrPlay into a streamer for background noise)... there's the answer.
tuturtle I have no experience with the Denon DAC having never heard one in person, but if I'm honest I'm not surprised. The only 2 CD players I've ever heard that bettered older, cheaper players are Cambridge Audio's 851C and Rega's Saturn-R. They're both beyond musical (in fact they sound simply stunning). The Cambridge digs up slightly more detail, the Rega offers a slightly more analogue sound.
The cambridge has slightly better build quality and usability, and actually uses their own up sampling technology in the DAC section whereas the Rega is strictly 16/44.1 for CD, and up to 24/192 for the DAC. More often than not the ultimate sound of the player has to do with the output stage as opposed to the DAC. That's the reason those cheaper Technics players you mentioned in a previous video sound so terrible - their output stages just aren't up to scratch. Same with the standard Marantz CD-63. Still, if you can, i'd urge you to get a listen to the 2 aforementioned players. In a suitable system, they will completely change your perception of the CD format.
I'd quite like to see a video in which you discuss your favourite models of hi-fi components that can be had for bargain prices on the used market. As you've mentioned you've played with quite a few, so it would be interesting to see you pick a few price points (under£100, £150, £250, £500 and £1000 for example) and suggest the amp and CD player you'd go out and purchase for that money if you were building a system.
tuturtle I'm not a fan of Denon kit. I've often thought of Denon as the cheaper Marantz - after all, they are the same company. Take a look at the Acoustic Research UA1. There's a review on Audio Appraisal. :-)
Puresound That's why many people prefer a proper streamer over a computer-based solution. Although a blu-ray player (and indeed a streamer) is essentially just a stripped-down computer, their USB hardware (in particular the 5V power supply) is usually better optimised for the playback of digital files to prevent noise in the picture. Plus, when using an external hard drive, as opposed to transferring audio over the USB bus, what you're actually doing is copying the data from the drive into the blu-ray player's RAM and the data is read from there, hence USB cable having no effect on the sound.
Puresound I don't know of any HDMI-capable streamers. I personally use a Cambridge Audio 851N which has a large screen, but I use it mostly with a phone. Most blu-ray players are designed to stream MP3 rips of albums, so finding a cheaper one with gapless playback won't be easy.
Puresound I usually rip CDs using iTunes to 320KBPS MP3 or Apple Lossless. If i want to seriously listen, I'll play the CD or vinyl itself. The streamer is mainly used for high-res masters, 24/96 FLAC vinyl rips, and internet radio.
Have you considered if manually snipping the connection of the 5V and Ground wire in the USB cable would work to still transfer the data over the two data lines by USB ? Since the device is self powered. And I think the noise is coming from ground loops.
www.head-fi.org/t/724519/schiit-decrapifier-released-usb-power-isolator/105#post_10805849
+mrlithium69 Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! Sorry for the slow reply, I've only just found your comment. No I haven't tried cutting the power wires in the USB cable, but I did try the iFi Gemini USB cable that has separate USB cables for power and signal, by only using the signal side of the cable. It didn't work with the Denon. The USB input on the Denon is poor quality. I now use a Musical Fidelity V-Link II to convert USB to Toslink and put the Toslink cable into the Denon, vastly better sound. But good quality USB cables still improve the sound when used this way, Cheers Tudor
+tuturtle So dispite the USB input in the DAC being of poor quality (sounds outlandish for a $400 piece of equiptment) THe ifi cable can still bring the sound quality out of it to CD quality and beyond?
+amartinez97 Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! Good question! Firstly the USB input on the Denon DAC is poor compared with the Musical Fidelity V-Link II (and 192 and iFi USB iLink). All these USB to spdif device improve the sound of the Denon compared with its own USB socket. Just using the iFi Mercury USB cable will improve the Denon to the level of a cheap CD being used as transport into the Denon. The Rotel CD player seen in this video, used on its own is massively more musical than the Denon, different league better. So it all depends.... Cheers Tudor
Why USB 3.0 female coupler adapters do not work with Ifi HipDac?
How much does all that cost though. Looking at different sites I would think close to $2,000. I think I will be fine with a good $100 cable. It is good to know that you made differences as you progressed.
Great review but it doesn't make sense. If your computer is transmitting 1s and 0s and your Denon DAC is receiving the 1s and 0s bit perfectly, where in the signal does the noise hide, and what part of the 1s and 0s receiver in the DAC is capable of receiving something besides 1s and 0s?
+Captain Midnight Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! USB cables also have power cables in them that are completely separate to the signal cables. I believe the noise is on the power section of the cable. It's not in the digital signal at all. I hope that clears things up. Cheers Tudor
+tuturtle If I understand what you're saying, the noise in the power section of the cable is being picked up by the signal section of the cable, but, unless the noise in the power section of the cable is in digital form, 1s and 0s, the digital receiver in the DAC would not be able to receive it. A second thought is that even if the power section noise was in 1s and 0s, and was somehow transmitted to the signal section of the USB cable, the resultant signal would no longer be bit perfect.
+Captain Midnight The sound that you listen to is analogue. The noise affects the analogue part of the DAC. That's my theory anyway. The type of noise isn't the type you get from digital dropout or over application on error correction.
+tuturtle The only noise that can get into the analogue part of the DAC is from the power source in the DAC itself because the digital signal fed into the DAC is bit perfect. I don't think you've made your case for a way noise from the power wires in the digital cable can get decoded into the DAC.
+Captain Midnight You might be right, it's just speculation on my part. But a USB can carry both digital and power at the same time. The noise can travel separately to the digital signal. I don't think it gets decoded, but it gets into the DAC and effects the sound.
Regardless, I can prove that it all the iFi components I showed in the video make a difference to the sound through empirical evidence gained from blind listening tests. "Why" is the big question, I wish independent scientists would do research into these vague areas in Hi-Fi. Maybe they will one day. Cheers Tudor
i will buy out and test it out...i really coulnt believe it too.
Thanks for this video. You validated what I have been arguing for years!
+Bansaku D.K. Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! I'm glad that someone else has had the same experience, as it goes against what most people believe. Cheers Tudor
why not try/modify a usb with the power connection disconnected? likely that is what the power filter does, just disconnects the source power and provides its own power from the wall wart downstream...
i make one that splits the power off that goes into a 20,000mah power bank. cleans lj up notably. buy an ifi ipufifier. cleans those problems up
Oyaide Audiophile Interconnects I recommend
Well, the Belkin is much longer, adding resistance/impedance and distortion in every extra millimeter.
You talk about noise coming through the power section of the cable and affecting the analogue stage of the DAC. If that is the case, then the problem, although mitigated by the expensive cable, is actually not with the cable but with the design of the DAC itself. A properly designed DAC would shield any noise input from any external source into the analogue stage, which would reduce any noise in the audio to distortion introduced due to amplification or loudspeaker quality.
Needless to say I would not be buying a cable like that to disguise a design fault in a component.
Great clip! People don't know how a DAC works. I've watched a little on the subject, concerning sigma-delta and multibit DAC's and to my yet limited knowledge this makes sense. Also, my DAC manufacturer doesn't make cables, yet they advise in the manual to use high quality cable.
Nice vid! So right about the noise
Also you can tweak the computer and get a better player than foobar. Also flac is not the best sounding. If you use flac for the tagging then try the level where there is no compression, just tagging.
There is more to go to diminish the noise
+Carl Mccoy Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! Yes people say to use other software rather than foobar, I've tried JRiver (on trial) which seemed good, but I was too busy to really delve into it properly! And yes I've started to not compress the flac files, there's no point saving space when hard drives are so huge and so cheap. And I Run the PC from an Isotek Mains Filtration strip which should help reduce noise, it certainly alters the PC's analogue audio performance, and improves the screen image. Thanks for the advice, Cheers Tudor
Absolutely spot on, i have had the same issue's with cables and dacs for a long time, and could never work out that my cd player always sounded better.
I ended up with "Vertere" cables which blew all my others away, but at a cost.
Data Transfer is one thing......Music is something else......
Great Video..
Buy a decent DAC
I have argued with ppl about RCA cables being different... and we are talking analog... Ppl freak at the idea of USB sounding different but I can tell you they do.
I dont understand the purifier being needed if Micro USB3.0 is being used..... EDIT... apparently there are two versions.. the new Micro iUSB 3.0 does not need the usb purifier.. it;s built into the Micro iUSB3.0...... "For the iUSB3.0, that alone incorporates all that we have learnt over the past few years so the iPurifier2 is not required to improve the iUSB3.0."
WOW! This is really concerning. Thanks for your video Tests. Most informative, Man. And nicely presented. Good job. I must admit, I was hoping the cables wouldn't make a difference. Has audio cables, at least quality ones are expensive. I used to use expensive speaker cables in the past along with interconnect cables also. But in relation to these Usb cables. I am concerned. I bought an expensive audio interface recently ( £2300.00). I've been experiencing noises, crackling, static sounds, drop outs ever since. Changed the usb cables twice. No difference. The interference isn't all the time. But occasionally. Enough to be unacceptable, I feel. I have tried adjusting everything I possible can with the computer. It's all been upgraded to new. But interference is still there. It's just the expensive cables I feel left to try. £80.. Plus.......Mmmmmm!
One last thing, I don't know if I would totally agree with your final summation, that USB cables make a difference. I say that because of the introduction of the iUSB Power and iPurifier, I believe you are actually addressing weaknesses in the USB spec as much if not more than in the cable design. Yes the cables clearly made a difference, but the bigger challenge is how USB works all together. It was a data transfer standard and not meant to transfer information around music fidelity to DACs that can do translation, but not designed to address ambient noise within the USB transmission. You are just doing what should have been done by the DAC manufacturers in addressing the removal of noise and purification of the signal prior to translation.
+Mark Badia Hello, The USB cable made a difference on its own and does enhance the IFi IUSB Power etc as well. So with my equipment the usb cable does alter/improve the sound. The video is simplistic and doesn't cover all bases at all. I intend to do a series of videos about my computer audio one step at a time. I totally agree with you that all these issues with USB could and should be addressed at the DAC, and not by multiple accessories. Cheers Tudor
For people who are open minded, I bought the QED Performance Usb cable which is What-hifi recommended such that i can judge myself. On my entry level system and to my normal ears, there can be an improvement on the top end. The improvement is subtle if existed and doesn't justify the price in my case.
Later, I bought the Audioengine Jitterbug which claims to filter usb noises. Result is background becomes cleaner. Treble distorts less. And the improvement is obvious.
Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! I agree with you, the USB filters (I own a Jitterbug as well) are far more effective than the USB cables at improving the sound! Cheers Tudor
Oh you have AQ Jitterbug too?! That's fantastic item! I think a good usb cable may provide a cleaner path and better shielding to external noises, and isolating the noises from the power lines and data lines. However, if the source signal is already polluted, it's meaningless to have a better path. Maybe if i test it again, with the Jitterbug on, there could be difference between the QED usb cable and stocked usb cables idk.
I ordered the Supra USB cable this week and have just watched this vid. Wish I’d seen it before, his analysis sounds great. But couldn’t ifi of combined a couple of those products?
What you need to do is isolate the USB ground loop, you need to get a iFi Audio iDefender3.0 dongle (it's about £49.99 in the UK) this will isolate the Ground loop witch causes noise in the Usb signal.
Hi Tudor I finally got that Belkin Gold cable you recommended and I tried it out. I still wasn't able to reliably tell the difference between it and the other cables I tested. Like you said it could be equipment dependent and the dac I have may not be as sensitive to differences in cables as the dac that you have. Like I said in the video though it was ridiculously easy to tell the difference between the CD player and PC inputs but those are two different pieces of equipment entirely. Anyway the video where I talk about this is located here ua-cam.com/video/-6_Udb1E634/v-deo.html
In my next video I'm probably going to talk about cables vs equipment and the impact they can have on system sound. As this experiment has taught me a few things. I'm also going to try some of the things in your improve CD sound videos as some of the "tweaks" are very cheap such as just giving the CDs a good cleaning and the anti static spray.
Hey Tudor, very interesting, I get the fact that you hear a difference, however I am not sure how the signal is polluted by noise.
In a digital environment noise could be introduced due to checksum errors, in the olden days that would be jitter, with USB this is eliminated. Something we both agree. However you mention that you think it is a reduction of noise, but where does the noise come from?
I am speculating here, but could it be that since the cable is responsible for carrying both power and data, the power element is somehow affecting the D/A converter? More specifically the A part of the mix.
In the same way that mobiles affected older amps/speakers that were not shielded from the frequencies that mobiles emitted and received, as they were not a problem during the time those amps/speakers were designed.
But noise from the cable theory does not make sense, can't introduce noise in a digital signal that is checksumed, the problem lies elsewhere.
I concur! :) Like the video, do keep making these, I really enjoy them.
Of the IFI products used. What the best bang for buck?
The iFi - Micro iUSB Power is by far the most impressive, and can be used by itself with great effect.
Great video. Although very expensive, you should try the Curious USB Cable from Australia. If you don’t want to keep the cable, then they will pay for the return post. So you can try it at no cost, the risk is that you will like the cable and won’t want to return it. I haven’t tried the IFI cable, but I have tried the Curious cable and I definitely notice a significant difference to a silver plated cable that I have.
Is it possible that it was your PC that was introducing the noise, not the cables? DId you try all the cables across different PCs?
You need a Mac mini as sound card power supply etc is better - it’s due to using PC which are noisy as anything. Or get a dedicated streamer and go coaxial.
Better use optical or powerless network. Even when dac is powered externally, the irregular 5V present on the usb can make rfi that is received by clocks, oscillators etc. Chemical power source is less noisy. the debate is the same cinch cables are crap, yet some expensive cables are sold. Balanced trs or xlr are much better with higher signal voltage and hum cancellation. Once tested xlr level once, can't go back. the problem I have with what is said on the video is that with my usb cable, i hear no problem in sound when compared with toslink cd player. 44/16 sound identical to me, however each sample rate and bit depth use different filters so have vastly different tones all together on CD there is only one setting. My favorite is 48khz 24 bits, for me sounds the cleanest(on my dac), anything above that is muffled. Unfortunately I can not compare A/B with CD since tone and levels are DIFFERENT. Another misconception is data packets : real time is DIFFERENT than file copy, when transmitting real time with low latency like for example APTX bluetooth audio there are no checksum and no retries if failed, this is a one time transmission and if it fails you have like a dropped frame or a freeze in video. So stop comparing async with real time low latency : those are DIFFERENT.
pro tip: best cable is OCC bronze and sulphur nitrate plated. go ask from your nearest music shop now.
Maybe simply disabling usb power in bios would do same job as all the gadgets?
Hello, thanks for watching and commenting on the video. I have tried using USB without the power, but this DAC won't work if I do this! It could be an option on other gear though.
please test 2000dollar hdmi next.
PAD DIAMOND REVISION 30TH USB 👍
The only difference is cable length so have you ever thought to change your usb card in your PC ? Or your dac as the only thing that can occur voltage wise on longer cables is voltage drop .you never mentioned which spec the usb card is ? Gold cables is tripe copper is a lower resistance than gold. The lowest resistance is silver.
Gold(plated) connectors don't corrode to the same extent as copper that's why it's used there isn't much gold. The problem with silver is it gets attacked by sulphur in the air producing silver sulphide the brown tarnish you see on silver things it's a semiconductor.
Because they're hard headed and closed minded
Brilliant! So it's not that high priced audiophile USB cables are magically improving the quality of the data going through the USB cable - instead audiophile USB cables are reducing the RF noise that is travelling from a noisy computer to a noise sensitive DAC. Thank you for taking the time to do the test and explain what you think was happening!
Hello, Thanks for watching and commenting on the video, it's much appreciated! Just my thoughts on the subject, but it seems logical. Cheers Tudor
The ones are more one-sy and the zeros are more zero-y....
noise like hum can however be easily introduced with lousy cables... you at least need good shielding, with "just" data it would be fine, but when it's data that you want to listen to its another story, another factor good cables use to eliminate noise is to try and isolate the data and power lines of the cable....