Dutch Resistance: Orange Shall Overcome! Review: Resist Much. Obey Little.
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- Chris and Camilla take a look at Dutch Resistance: Orange Shall Overcome!
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0:00 Intro
0:58 Overview
7:09 Review
20:07 Final Thoughts
BGG Link: boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3...
#dicetower #thedicetower - Ігри
Chris- would love to see a Top Ten History Themed Games list from you (and others from Dice Tower if they share the interest)!
And still hoping for a Top Ten Adventure Games from Camilla!!!
I love seeing Chris and Camilla interacting with a bit of Dutch history. And a terrific score as well, what a great accolade for the designer!
Yeah, I am very happy to hear they both like my game so much :).
@@Liberation_Game_DesignIt sounds like it's deserved, can't wait to play it!
Nice cap, Camilla. I guess the Nassau is on purpose as the Dutch Monarchy was called House of Orange-Nassau.
Nice integration of the theme in the review.
I was instantly thinking Black Orchestra when I saw this one. Nice review!
I can imagine, although there are many substantial differences. But if are interested in that theme, you will probably also like this game.
Met the designer, spoke with him at some length. Terrific guy, he put a LOT of effort in, spoke to the children of some of the characters' real life versions.
Thank you very much for the nice compliment :).
Having had dutch resistance members in my own family I'm happy to know that this is coming back to KS with an expansion so i have a chance to get it this time around.
That was a very informative analysis, delivered direct without any unnecessary video fluff. I was just curious about the game having recently enjoyed Maquis but I think you'll be my go to channel for reviews now. And obvious I want that game too.
“Note to self: Do not ask Camilla for help.” - Goblin Kid
😂
The reprint campaign for the game has launched today.
Great and very thoughtful review, looks like the game really evokes a lot of emotion. In many ways it reminds me of This War of Mine.
Sidenote: what an appropriate cap Camilla's wearing. The Dutch royal family is Oranje-Nassau 😄
Its even more 'horrible' than this war of mine, which i love as well. But this game let me feel how it had to be like in ww2. The desperation is really on top.
@@tanjavanhelden967 Thank you, great to hear that what I tried to accomplish worked for you.
This seems like a multiplayer variant of Maquis.
Very mindful review. Good stuff
This sounds really interesting. I must check this out!
I backed this for a friend who's family was in the Dutch resistance. I'm so happy that it's turning out to be a good game.
This has been at the top of my must buy list for a while now. Thanks Chris and Camilla.
Great to hear, and with the reprint campaign there will be a new option for people to get the plus more content with the expansion.
@@Liberation_Game_Design Thanks for the info. Any idea when the reprint campaign starts for the English version, and where I'd be able to buy this please? Thank you x
@@kangyuisusuki6239I can't add any links here, so I can't show it directly. But it will be on the 7th of May on Kickstarter.
Oranje Zal Overwinnen (OZO, seen on right side of the board and orange card on left), (=Orange Shall Overcome).
Dutch resistance slogan. Moral booster to resist the German occupation. You were not allowed to mention the Dutch Royal House of Orange.
Oooh, Zwartboek the game! ;-)
This sounds like a really cool title, I hope to be able to try it at some time, Just some thoughts based on the review:
-Are there multiple versions of the Halt cards? One thing I worry about on the replayability of things like this is being able to learn the consequences and being able to game around those. It's not a deal breaker, it's just a limitation of that kind of fixed dilemma. Are there any thoughts of maybe merging those in to an app?
-Was there ever any thought about building the cost of intimacy in to a game like this? I think it was the French film with the English title "Female Agents" where it one character that struggled with the aftermath of seducing the German commanders, both in terms of her personal revulsion of these people, and with how the people around her considered her as a collaborator. Not sure how easy it would be to capture it mechanically, but it's an amazingly dramatic theme when it's well written (though it sadly is, a lot of spy/espionage stuff dwells on gadgets and action rather than the mental toll of being undercover)
-Is there any discussion about a campaign version of the scenarios where things carry over? Not sure it would appeal to Camilla though...
Really intrigued in where the designer goes from here, there is a lot of under explored WW2 history, like the how the real story of the Enigma machine began with the Polish Cipher Bureau and how they smuggled their work out to avoid the Germans knowing they had broken the encryption. Is there enough there for a game? Or is there going to be more of an exploration of other parts of Dutch history?
Happy to hear the review made you interested in the game and I also hope you will be able to try it at some point. There will be some more videos posted in the following weeks about the game, such as a thorough how to play video, and there already is a full playthrough on The Co-op Guild channel if you want to see more if you consider joining the Kickstarter campaign for the game that starts on the 7th of May.
As for your questions and comments:
- I have received the question about the amount of Halt! cards quite regularly. The base game has 46 Halt card with 2 options and 4 results, as the effects of each option are different for policemen and for soldiers. With the extra set of cards you can buy for the game there are 24 more cards, for a total of 70. The expansion will add some more as well, but with 70 x 4 options for a total of 280 options that you might want to learn I think you have to be really good at memorizing these things. Many effects have more than one icon as well as some text. I have played the game more than anybody else and made all the cards, but I think that from only a few of them I could really tell you the effects directly. That is also not the goal. The game also worked well when there were just 20 Halt! cards, as the story itself already hints a bit to the possible effects. So the 46 Halt! cards are already a good amount and can be increased to 70, and even to 73 with the 3 Dice Tower promo Halt! cards.
There are currently no plans for an app, although it could work well. I do like people actually holding the card and reading from them.
- There is not really directly the cost of intimacy as you describe in the game right now. There is one of the tasks in scenario 5 where you have to convince a nurse to get in contact with a German officer, make him comfortable around her so she can switch some documents.
- There is no direct discussion yet about a real campaign version of the game, but there are some things I am exploring for the expansion of the game. These are things like adjustments to the location tiles to give locations stronger or weaker action options based on things that happen in the game is something I am testing right now. It is not the main focus of the expansion, but it is something I am looking into. As for the Enigma machine comment, that is indeed something that is not directly related to the Dutch resistance and therefore not the best fit for this game.
The base game focuses on 5 different activities of the Dutch resistance in some more general ways. The expansion will have 2 new scenarios though about specific Dutch events, with 1 of them being lesser known, the strike of April-May 1943. So I am adding under-explored WW2 Dutch history to the game with the expansion.
I hope this answers your questions. Feel free to ask any others you might have.
There is oh so much to like about this game! I imagine it’s going to be my stand out game for this year - and yeah, it’s only March. Due to the size of the board, I’m looking for a way to make the occupiers stand out a bit so they can be seen more easily across the board. Oh, if only MeepleSource would make some police and soldiers to fit this game, avoiding the background colors used in the player colors.
That is so nice to hear, thank you :). Really happy to hear you enjoy the game. And the expansion will bring many more interesting things to the game. I considered standees and saw somebody who made a print and play version with them. Maybe they can be a stretch goal for the expansion, or a separate thing. I am already looking at the options and will think about it some more.
It sounds like Robinson Crusoe to me, which I love.
Was so excited by this and would back if not for the horrendous shipping! $50 euros to Aus what a joke!
Shipping has been updated, and is 44 AUD for all in to Australia, shipped by Aetherworks. I was missing some shipping prices at the start of the campaign, so they were a bit higher for certain areas. But that is all fixed now. Sorry for not having it correct at the start of the campaign.
@@Liberation_Game_Design ok thanks for the update!
I bought this after visiting the booth at spiel. Was impressed with their demo. Didnt get around to play it yet, this review makes me wanna play this asap!!!
Nice to hear you managed to do a demo and got the game. I hope you will manage to play soon.
Agreed. Played this evening. This is a fantastic game
I am very interested in this game. My Mother was a teenager during the German occupation in WWII.
Wow, then it would probably be very special to play this game.
This looks very similar to Days of Ire, which is one of my favourite games, so I'll be tracking this down.
Great. Unfortunately I did not manage to play that one yet, but while doing research on games with a bit of a similar theme I looked at this game as well, so I know how it plays and I hope I will manage to play at some point.
Looks like an excellent game. I'll have to give it a try at Dice Tower East
Thank youl, and I hope you manage to be able to play the game at Dice Tower East. There will also be some more reviews as well as a how to play that you can watch soon if you don't manage or just want to know more about the game.
Top three games I'm most interested in this year.
Nice to hear that :).
Great review and an awesome game!
Thank you 😃
Black Orchestra is already my ridiculously thematic co-op WW2 game. Does this do enough different from that game to have both? Never have I felt the tension and theme as strong as I did when playing black Orchestra.
In my opinion, it’s definitely worth having both, though I can also see this game replacing Black Orchestra. Comparing them, Black Orchestra feels much more mechanical to me. Dutch Resistance feels more thematic, emotional, strategic, and puzzly.
Reminds me of Maquis...
Makes sense with the Second World War resistance theme on a map, but what I hear from people who played both, they say it is very different. Although I know how Maquis plays and I have a copy of it in my collection, I think this is a different type of game with different mechanisms.
Where is this available in English? Or was it only a Kickstarter?
There are a few shops in the USA that have some copies left, but that is it. In Europe there are currently 8 copies left.
But on the 7th of May a reprint + expansion campaign will start on Kickstarter, so then it will hopefully be available again after that if the campaign goes well.
Nice to know… will watch for it!
There’s also an upcoming reprint + expansion on Kickstarter.
@@eyoung6943 yes, that is the one I mentioned indeed, that starts on the 7th of May.
Was this crowdfunded, or straight to retail?
Crowdfunded in October 2021, then 2 more years of development and released at the end of last year, with most backers receiving their game recently.
@@Liberation_Game_Design any retail plans for the game? Or will it be something like a crowdfunded expansion and base reprint?
@@ryanmiddleton6335 it will mostly be a base game reprint and expansion first print. I am in contact with some European distributors, but nothing concrete there. Outside of Europe at this moment there are no retail plans, but maybe that changes. Difficult to day at this moment.
@@Liberation_Game_Design absolutely understandable. Just trying to get a pulse where I can pick up a copy since I missed the original campaign. I’ll keep my ear to the ground and hopefully not miss the second go around!
Maquis XL?
As the designer of Dutch Resistance: Orange Shall Overcome! I am obviously very biased, but I would not really directly compare them in this way.
"sacrifice a child or not" does not a good game make. For this to work there really should have been consequences systems in place, much like in Robinson Crusoe or Frostpunk. In terms of mechanisms this game seems a bit mediocre :/
The consequences with these Halt! cards are on the card themselves and resolved most of the time directly, but sometimes there are continuing effects. I have lost a game because of this Halt! card, as this card has one of the more punishing effect options. You have to decide if you help a child to hide to get in trouble yourself, or hand it over to the German soldiers that take the child to get information about its parents.
I can understand if my game is not for you. The overview from Chris is of course a bit short and more abstract just to give you an idea of how the game works. If you want to see a bit more to have a better understanding of how it all works, you can watch a playthrough, for example from The Co-op Guild, to see a game being played.
@@Liberation_Game_Design immediate consequences on cards are very common in event based cooperative games. Problem with that is that they are immediate. Robinson Crusoe and Frostpunk handle this in a smarter way. There are immediate consequences, but there also MAY be further consequences if the consequence card shows up. In Frostpunk even the consequence card is random, so even in replay you are not 100% sure.
A game with this theme would have been more thematic by implementing something similar.
But yeah, I'm sure it's good, it just feels a little outdated in mechanisms.
The "occupiers" are Nazis - Would you know that playing the game? If the history was so important to the game designer, why not accurately depict the German occupiers? The graphics just look super generic for something that should be immediately recognizable. Chris & Camilla just talked about how much the theme meant to the game -- I dont get the art design, in that case.
It’s really weird how desperately people want swastikas in games. I think it’s unlikely that very many people will misunderstand that you are resisting the Germans during WW2. There is also the practical problem that a more "accurate" visual representation would make the game a lot more complicated to sell in Germany, which is one of the largest markets for board games.
As I understand it, the local police and government were forced to work for the German occupiers, so a lot of the encounters in the game are with local enforcers rather than direct occupiers. As the game progresses, soldiers replace police officers on the map, and SS officers replace soldiers during investigations. I've seen the designer Marcel respond to some comments, so maybe he'll be able to answer better, or you can get some more thoughts if you ask on the BGG page. -Chris
Well, on the occupier cards it does literally show a German Wehrmacht soldier in front of a Wehrmacht flag. As well as a Wehrmacht soldier on the Halt! cards. They didn't all constantly wear full ceremonial nazi regalia and sport Hitler moustaches.
There were also different agencies involved in an occupation besides the Wehrmacht and the SS. There was the local nazi party they worked in tandem with, the NSB, then there were the German Sicherheitsdienst (the Gestapo) the Dutch Rechtsfront or liasons to the German National Orpo.
The Nazis were the ruling party in Germany at the time but it was the country that invaded the Netherlands. The art depicts this far more accurately than some Wolfenstein caricature of history would.
@alecj3454, I needed a bit of time today to write a proper reply on the questions and comments you had. But thank you Andrew, Chris and Silke for your answers as well, as those already mention some of the things as well.
“The "occupiers" are Nazis - Would you know that playing the game?”
Yes, you know that while playing. They are mentioned on the back of the box and I tried to be as true to history as I could. There were about 50.000 German soldiers in the country, and about 9.000.0000 people living in the Netherlands. As you can tell, the amount of soldiers needed to occupy the country was not that high. One of the reasons was the cooperation of the Dutch police and other officials such as many mayors and government workers. These soldiers were also mostly in the cities. Many people in the countryside hardly noticed real changes because of the occupation until April - May 1943, when the strike started that is one of the expansion scenarios.
“If the history was so important to the game designer, why not accurately depict the German occupiers?”
You mean I should have added the swastika’s, SS runes and some other small emblems hardly visible in most art pieces with the size of these pieces? Because everything else with the clothes are based on reference photos from that time. And adding those last details to me would not have made it more recognizable, but only tougher to sell. The flag on the Occupier card backs are also with everything on it, the head of the soldier and officer just block the swastika. So far I hear back from people that they appreciate the way I did it.
"The graphics just look super generic for something that should be immediately recognizable. Chris & Camilla just talked about how much the theme meant to the game -- I dont get the art design, in that case."
What specific art design might be not right in your eyes? I could then either explain why I made certain choices, or just consider adjusting something.
As Andrew already mentioned as well, having certain things shown would not make it possible to sell in Germany. Seeing how many people in Germany are interested in the game and there might even be a German version, I think removing these things are worth it. Black Orchestra could not be sold there for example because they decided they did use them. But I think the game would not have been worse if they had removed them.
Chris, you are absolutely right about the interactions and worded it very well. I don’t know if that is something you learned from the game or already knew.
And Silke, you also describe very well the many different elements and layers to the occupation, so I don’t have anything to add right now.
I hope this clarifies a bit some of the decisions for the art, bit if you have some specific things you think could be done better, I am always open to reconsider certain decisions for the reprint of the game if they would make sense.
Well, how do you feel about Memoir '44, where it's not cooperative and you actually play the other side?
The story of WW2 is so tragic in a sense the war had an objective 'evil' nature to one side of that historical period (and it's not just the winners writing history) that any board game setting of it has to be somewhat of a 'shadow' of what really happened.