Sonic & Gameplay Variety - How FOCUSED Gameplay Improves a Game ~ Design Doc
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- The Sonic the Hedgehog series has changed its game design so often, it's hard to keep up. This video looks at the gameplay in Sonic games and discusses the good design and bad design choices made by Sonic team.
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While I don’t think Colors does the best job of combining speed and platforming, I praise it for its consistency and simplicity. As well as adding enough variety, but never turning its back on the core gameplay.
This is what I think Generations improves on with better level designs and higher replay value.
Everything looked fine until Lost World and Forces happened, which both feel like Colors and Generations without the charm, variety or focus they do well in.
@Not Toxic maxxy well that's you
Wisps, wisps, and more wisps.
@VinceSM SegaSammy: Don't like Pontac and Graff's unnecessary 'localization'?
Fans: That's right.
*4 years later* Pontac and Graff: Just a game I'm working on *shows next Sonic game*
With Sonic using the Wisps also means his moveset has to be gimped in order for them to work.
You want to Light Speed Dash? Well you better make sure you have the right Wisp for that, otherwise no LSD for you (...wait a minute!?) Plus, unlike the regular Light Speed Dash where you could be running, jumping, going fast, basic Sonic stuff, and then you see a trail of rings. If you were skilled enough, in one simple button press you'd zip through that trail of rings all without breaking stride and keep on moving.
With the Hover Wisp however, you must first stop dead in your tracks and wait for the start up animation to play out, like its 1998 all over again. Meanwhile you'd be up, over and long gone by the time you got yourself line up with the ring trail in your Hover form if you had the regular Light Speed Dash.
Sure the Wisps may expand Sonic's moveset, however while it turns him into a Jack of all trade, it also makes him a master of stop and go gameplay, which is where the other characters - who have been replaced by the Wisps - would come into play, to do the things Sonic can't. Sure it would mean Sonic wouldn't be able to do everything again, but we want characters, not functions! And considering it's been 15 years since we last saw Amy, Knux and Miles playable in a mainline 3D title, I'd say they're long overdue another chance.
@@DemonDethchase That's like complaining how Generations doesn't allow you to light speed dash in every rings or how you can't spin dash or bounce in the Boost games. The stop and go gameplay from the Wisp is due to how you use them for exploration or a chance to speed through and skip slower platforming segments
"Bootleg Totoro" is probably the best description of Big the Cat I've heard anyone ever say. Fantastic video, brought up a lot of great points and expressed exactly what I've always thought for years whenever people bitch and moan about Sonic's friends and blame that for the games being bad. The characters themselves are not the problem, but rather it's their implementation.
hi
Now its funny because Palworld has an even more blatant bootleg Totoro
The comments of Yuji Naka are interesting. I've always known that Sonic needed huge levels but I never thought it was what led them to pad the game out with other characters or completely different games. But it really shows you how Sonic on the Genesis really came out at the right time with it being the peak of 2D video game technology compared to the Adventure formula which really feel like early 3D games. It was only in 2008 when we got the hedgehog engine that really brought that feeling of speed across large levels and even then they had to make several concessions with how linear the hedgehog engine games were. It's only now and through fan projects where we are seeing fast paced 3D momentum based Sonic platformers that feature open ended level design similar to early Tony Hawk. I mean if you don't count idTech and Source engine bunny hopping maps.
I'm a year late so you probably already know this but the Hedgehog Engine is a lighting engine, it doesn't affect the gameplay in the slightest
@@Kaplykos But it was the Hedgehog that allowed for levels to be rendered at such a fast pace.
This series of videos is very well edited and researched. It deserves much more attention, in my opinion.
SmithDanigans[THoM] o!,
One thing I never understood about Knuckles is why his levels are based around treasure hunting when his name is Knuckles. Wouldn't it be more sensible to have his levels play like a beat em up and use his inherent attunement to the Master Emerald as an excuse to make the levels as linear as a beat em up level? He's supposed to be the power to Sonic's speed and the brawn to Tails' brain, so why do his levels never reflect that?
I dunno man, if I hear of a guy named Knuckles I expect a guy throwing punches, not floating around with a metal detector trying to find his magical stones.
I donno it never felt forced to me when it came to sonic adventure. I really liked the variety.
With the exception of Big, I agree with this. I suspect folk like us are in the minority, however.
Same, & it's a good thing Big only has 4 Stages that can be beaten quickly if you know what you are doing. Fishing was just a 1-time thing to sell some peripheral fishing rod. It's unfortunate the "Just Sonic" mentality had to happen, as characters were what really made the Sonic series great. I think we're at least 30% of the fanbase, unfortunately it's the whiners who tend to get heard.
I just wish there was more Sonic stages in Sonic adventure 2
I think it was meant for the Dreamcast fishing controller.
Doesn't excuse anything, but it could've been something decent.
@@SteveCrafts2k I always thought it happened because of SEGA Bass Fishing, with SEGA trying to turn the casual players into gamers, ya know?
I'm about to start working on a game that takes a lot of inspiration from Sonic, among other sources, and I think this video has given me an extremely helpful perspective on some design decisions I'll make for the game.
I feel that Sonic: Unleashed was actually a safe way to "test the waters" with a new mechanic. Rather than being an unfocused mess like other Sonic titles, the two styles of gameplay were cleanly split, thus leaving the traditional levels untouched by the new game type that Unleashed incorporated.
Also, I feel that people tend to focus too much of their critical attention on the werehog segments - pointing to them as if that were a catch-all explanation for why it's bad. First of all, they're not THAT bad. Not great, but not bad.
And second, they're not the core of the game. As previously mentioned, the core Sonic gameplay was handled entirely on its own in a separate set of levels.
And I gotta say... I strongly feel that those levels are some of the best that 3D Sonic has to offer. I love how they incorporate strategic thinking with a boost system that requires commitment and has heavy drawbacks to using constantly (unlike Colors and Generations), and I love how these levels incentivize the players to explore and plan the best route by scouting the multi-faceted levels, while simultaneously keeping them on their toes with reaction-based gameplay. It's so immensely satisfying to blaze through a level perfectly, getting every move right along the way.
It's a shame that people have such a vendetta against the werehog levels that they can't see the greatness of the standard levels. If the game was developed as "Sonic World Adventure" as it was originally intended, I feel it would've been able to properly capitalize on its strengths with the core Sonic gameplay. I don't dislike the new game type that they put in (I even have fun playing as werehog Sonic, admittedly), but I also believe that the game as a whole would've been much better off without the new game type they were trying to incorporate.
As half the gameplay Werehog stages are indeed core to the game.
@@KaitouKaiju
You're right, they were indeed a significant part of the experience. Perhaps I didn't use the best term...
What I meant to communicate was that the werehog stages are not _everything_ about that game. They are a core part of Unleashed as a whole, but the standard daytime levels deserve just as much critical attention, and I feel that examining each gameplay style in isolation helps greatly in forming a more accurate perspective and more fairly judging the game.
The problem with Unleashed and the Werehog stages is that you spend the vast majority of the game playing a style that has nothing to do with the core of Sonic. Beat-em-up stages take significantly longer to beat than a standard Sonic level does, so while the number of stages may be even, the overall play time is totally imbalanced. That's why people rag on the Werehog stages.
@@christiannorton9400
That is an excellent point. Thank you.
@@christiannorton9400 I wish they made the Werehog levels a bit more platforming focused. I believes that's where the Werehog shines.
honestly my only issue with sonic adventure was that it felt like everyone but sonic wasn't getting enough levels, I'd just be getting into the stride and really enjoying the meat of their gameplay... aaaaand it's over. even big wasn't that big of a deal to me.
I understand with doing something new, but Sonic Team should really stop with gimmicks in each new release it's been going far too long and is damaging the original core gameplay of Sonic that required skill and understanding.
Chris Kesich I mean at least it's not the same every game (Not pointing fingers anywhere just saying)
Their penchant for throwing everything out whenever they seem to be onto something is truly baffling. Sonic Generations could have spawned a series of games, leading to the creation of brand new levels and such.
cloudkitt yeah Sega could definitely use some consistency with what they do but I honestly don't mind the gimmicks if they do differentiate the games without changing everything completely (sometimes when they do it is fun though I did like the werehog sections) gimmicks aren't really their forte and but somehow they continue to make them but at least all the games are different
Do you want to know how bad the management is at SEGA of Japan? Read this, but approach with caution, this is a Reddit conversation: www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHedgehog/comments/7v2rl6/desperate_state_of_sega_japan_and_sonic_team/
They almost got it right with Sonic Generations if only the 2d sections hadn't been so buggy
This video in my opinion has not aged well now that Forces has been released. I do agree that an unfocused level of variety creates a watered down experience. But the series up until 06 (Which was when it reached it's logical extreme with variety) was building upon the core ideas of Sonic gameplay, with some missteps along the way like Big the cat. The characters had a sense of speed (or more accurately "momentum") to their movements, with an emphasis of platforming as well as standard sonic setpieces like Rings, collectables, springs and robots being present. And the goal was fairly straight-forward with an emphasis on skill allowing for a better performance during gameplay. Sonic forces however is completely backwards from the adventure era and shows that removing the variety that works actually harms the experience.
I think Forces' problems go well beyond character/gameplay variety but I do agree that this video hasn't aged the best and my general stance on it has changed a bit. I would like them to go back to multiple playable characters with an approach similar to either Sonic 3/Mania/Advance/Rush or to SA2. I wouldn't want to see drastically different gameplay styles like Unleashed but rather something close to Knuckles' treasure hunting where it still feels like the same game. I also wouldn't want the Heroes approach cause that was essentially forcing you to play every difficulty option + a mission mode to see the game's proper ending. The teams had their gameplay differences but they were too minor with maybe the only exceptions being with Espio and Charmy.
Yeah, the whole "Sonic is about being fast" was the reason why Sonic missed the mark. I'll say that Mario 3 was more like Sonic than modern Sonic due to the P-Meter. Is not about speed, it's about gaining and mantaining speed. The worst part is that the game can have both cohesive gameplay and a momentum based gameplay but for some reason they refuse to do both at the same time.
the difference between Sonic and Mario is that Mario has gameplay that’s more or less the same across all games. Every time a gimmick is introduced, the series goes on with only the best and most intuitive ideas sticking, like wall jumps, triple jumps, and ground pounds. With Sonic, however, the series might feature the same character, but it doesn’t ever feel familiar, because the idea of “Sonic” seems to change with every game. Even the mechanics that do stick around are completely different from game to game, namely boosting. Fan games will show you that Sonic fans have better ideas of what Sonic should be than Sega/Sonic Team.
Mario Odyssey does this beautifully. Cappy changing you into everything your hat can land on changes the gameplay constantly, but it never feels like aren't playing the best 3D Mario game ever made.
Sonic colors had a problem of bland side levels that mostly consist of 2D block platforming, which has never been a staple of the series. A major lack of real 3D gameplay also hinders the experience. I think it would have been better to focus more on the modern levels of Generations.
"bland side levels that mostly consist of 2D block platforming, which has never been a staple of the series" What? There has always been block platforming in Sonic games. They've all had a lot of block platforming. There's nothing wrong with switching to 2d in a 3d game.Crash Bandicoot and the 3d Mario games from Galaxy onward have done that and it's perfectly fine. It was fine in Sonic Colors. Disagree that the 2d levels were bland they had a fun gimmick that gave you variety and tested your skill.
"A major lack of real 3D gameplay also hinders the experience" What do you mean by real 3d platforming? How is Sonic Colors not real 3d platforming? Who says that you have to have proper 3d platforming? (whatever the hell that means). Sonic Colors is fast an exhilarating and then Switches to timed platforming usually in 2d so it doesn't become mind numbing like Sonic Rush. Who says it has to have "true 3d platforming"? At the end of the day games are meant to be fun and Sonic Colors achieves that.
@@theplatformerreviewer6905 Sonic games have never had 2d level design where you literally jump from block to block bro. The main problem with Colors 2d platforming sections was its lack of flow and momentum, 2 concepts that have been the base of Sonic’s gameplay since day 1. Whether you were slowly jumping from a generic looking block to another generic looking block, stepping on a button watching a platform move, or using the underwhelming and pace breaking gimmicks (the wisp) to maneuver around the boring levels; Colors definitely had the most artificial looking level design in a sonic game. Along with that artificial look, Sonic Colors' had a clear lack of flow and momentum that was eventually fixed in generations.
Just compare all the colors 2d sections to something like generations, unleashed, or even the classics. Major differences in design philosophies.
@@realestAG Marble Zone would like to know your location.
@@johnathonturner2279 There's a reason why people don't like it👍🏾
@@realestAG The 2D sections have multiple routes via Wisps, so even through its blockier platforming, the meat of keeping the momentum is choosing the Wisps to take the route that is more smoother, like skipping climbing some platforms in Sweet Mountain Act 1 by Drilling through the terrain where you can also take the underground path or get some goodies underground. I love how it those paths gives you a choice of either going fast or to explore to get some items like Red Rings depending on the mood. It isn't just "oh I missed the top path, I'll get it next time or restart the stage because I want a smooth gameplay". It's that type of level design philosophy that made me love the Classic Sonic games. I guess the Wii didn't have enough power to do the speedy sections like Unleashed Daytime stages, but I'm glad they focused on choices in paths in a Modern Sonic game, to the point that I can ignore the blocky platforming.
Despite the generic "Serious Sonic bad, Post-Colors good" trope, this has amazing valid points
I've seen many sonic analysis videos, nonetheless you were able to teach some valuable lessons about game design. The only complaint I could find it's that it was too short, I would have loved to hear more about Sonic Heroes
Exactly, I think out of all the Sonic games that have added variety via other characters, Sonic Heroes did the better job (may just be nostalgia tho, idk). All the formations were useful in some way or another, no matter the situation. Though to be fair I did not like the Team Chaotix mission style gameplay, but the other 3 teams were super fun to play.
The part of Sonic unleashed also understand the Core , but they put the werehog because variety ... But i still like it
for the next 3D Sonic game I'd like Tails and Knuckles to comeback and be playable again, as its been a while since they've had a crack at the whip in 3D, as it does seem to be Sonic or bust with the Boost games and Lost World. Plus I just want to run (and fly) wild and free again as Tails, like in Adventure, and not be stuck into another mech (Adventure 2), or being lumbered with Sonic and Knuckles hanging from him the whole game (Heroes). And if Sonic Team can't make it, do another Mania but in 3D and see how that goes.
Fascinating video on game design re:Sonic. Professional level of presentation and excellent content in this video, sure seems like this channel and this video is deserving of a much higher sub/view count. Subbed!
Pretty late, but I do have some opinions on SA2's treasure hunting. The SA1 radar of 3 at once gets tossed around a bunch as a "fix" or whatever, but from a design perspective, it would have been awful. SA2's stages are best played using the hints, where you focus on one at a time, because you have to have the hints on your mind. If you saw a ping for another piece, it'd likely lead you to ignore the one you're already looking for, and go off in a different direction, completely defeating the point of the hints. The stages are far too big, the radar too imprecise, and some pieces too cryptic for just slapping SA1's 3 radar system in to work. Proof of this even exists, there's a cheat code in the PC mod manager to enable all 3 at once, so anyone could see for themselves, it really doesn't work.
Now, this isn't to say the system is perfect, I still consider it quite flawed. It's insanely fun to play it, but the catch is, until you learn the stage, a lot of the hints aren't that useful. Some levels get around this, by limiting the number of places you can go, Wild Canyon, Aquatic Mine, Dry Lagoon, Egg Quarters, and almost Pumpkin Hill, they break the stages up into a handful of distinct sections, and it's pretty easy to, even by accident, visit all of them looking for a piece. Pumpkin Hill failed because of the pieces on the pumpkin shaped mountains, they're too far away to get radar pings, and most of the pieces aren't on them making it easy for a player to never even think of checking them out. Also Pumpkin Mountain is so big you might not get a ping for an emerald on the other side of it. Most of the other stages, even Mad Space, aren't too bad in this regard, but not amazing either. But, the biggest level design failure was Death Chamber, it completely ignores this idea. There's a ton of areas, some that are even pretty hidden and would be easy to completely miss, and it's so big you might go ages without any radar pings. Not to mention, it's very samey, with most of what differentiates the areas being only colour (which isn't usually mentioned till a second or third hint) or some very obscure thing on a wall that isn't memorable like many of the hints in other stages. I speedrun the game and Death Chamber still trips me up.
A fix then, isn't simple. No one change would "fix" it, I'd say a completely different approach is the only way to really do better, levels more in line with Wild Canyon and Egg Quarters, something else to give hints, and move the hint monitor system to a different mission perhaps, so you already know the stages by the time you try them. It would be tricky to design a "perfect" system, but I certainly think something close is possible.
I'm actually impressed someone had an analytical review that A) praises the SA2 radar system and B) actually gives critique to Knuckles' more popular stages instead of just claiming how poor Rouge's are.
Also, I hate SA1 radar. If you're close enough to hit all three emeralds (which is easy to do on the small stages), the different overlapping radar beeps give me headaches, worse than the consistent tone of the mech beeps.
I agree
All of what you said is true which is a shame that sega never really had a third try to fix the formula as it still retains the core of keeping your momentum to reach from emerald to emerald faster, they just changed the number Speed stages goal post to three in the Hunting stages.
Plus, no one ever really mentions the fact that you get a Perfect Bonus when you get the emeralds out of order.
The thing with game variety is that it doesn’t have to blend with the other styles but that it has to be logical things like Undertale and Earthbound are also great examples of that done right
Sonic Colors does mix variety well, I agree, but how can you believe that when about 70% of the game is in 2D?
Sonic Colors' core gameplay is "New Super Mario Bros. Wii except fast."
wtf does that have to do with variety why do people always bring this 2d shit up
@@marr_cel cause they just want something to complain about since its not adventure..2D in a game doesn't lower a games worth
@@marr_cel it has to do with variety in the sense that the 2d segments play different than the 3d parts, but they complain that it takes most of the game which makes the level feel less varied as a result.
@@marr_cel because the 2D sections are repetitive and creatively bankrupt most of the time. Too many magically floating blocks that don't mesh well with the environments and the platforming doesn't feel all that great. Colors was just a step down from Unleashed, even considering the Werehog segments.
The problem with many sonic games is that control is frequently taken away from the player during automated sections. Maybe if Sonic was fun and easy to control at high speed, there would be no need to automate those set piece moments.
In SA2 they don't take away control as often. It's fun if you're patient with some of the glitches and how easy it is to die.
@@jimbo5266 throughout most SA2 speed levels you're just holding forward in linear level design till you run into a scripted section, just like unleashed.
Only games imo that do open ended well with great flow are generations and SA1.
@@AK46supr Which levels in generations are open ended?
If you look at many sections of SA2's city escape, there are multiple paths sonic can take. Clearly, it's still "linear", but there are places where sonic can find items or take alternate routes rather than just going forward. It's not massively open-ended, but it's leagues above the 3D sections in something like Sonic Colors, where sonic hardly has room to move sideways. I thought generations was similar to colors, in that regard, unless I'm remembering the levels wrong.
@@jimbo5266 you are definitely remembering the levels wrong cause there's plenty of open 3D sections in generations like sky sanctuary, speed Highway, sea side hill, even the beginning parts of planet wisp, chemical plant & crisis city. All do open speedy 3D platforming very well.
And Sa2 is still largely linear. Most "other paths" one may take in sa2 isnt really a path thats optimal for running the stage like city escape or metal harbor. Yea theres a place's like finding chao or other ability unlocks but by no means would you use it to beat the level. Usually its a pace breaker or just to far out the way to go. Games like unleashed and colors sometimes share the same issue with the medal and red ring collecting. But in sa2 sonics final stage does open ended really well also- but it's mostly on literal rails
BUT- i dont think linearity = bad game. As long as you make the linear levels have interesting stuff going on for them so its not brainless I do not mind. Thats why linear games like sa2, unleashed, & colors work WAAAAYYY better than *forces.* Just literally holding forward and watching the game largely play itself occasionally having to jump.
@@AK46supr I guess you're right and I am reminded of sky sanctuary in generations.
Though I still object to SA2 merely being "push forward" as there are levels like some of the jungle or highway levels with twisting paths.
I'm honestly not a fan of modern sonic's invisible walls everywhere. At least in SA2 some skips were possible. The unlockable green Hill level particularly had some fun skips in it, and I wish that was something the series did more of. Especially when in the old 2d games shortcuts and multiple routes were such a big part of many good levels.
Maybe its the nostalgia factor for me but i loved the differing gameplay when you had different playable characters. Sonic Heroes, Adventure 1 & 2, and even 06 was fun to me
I hated Amy, Tails, Knuckles, and Rouge in 06. But I loved Silver, Shadow, Sonic, Blaze, and Omega
The problem lies in the fact that the Sonic Team needs to figure out who Sonic is. If he is still an impatient teenager, then make going fast have consequences by adding more obstacles that makes you not want to boost all the time. If Sonic is trying to rescue someone or stop Dr. Robotnic make a big level with a time limit to where you have an in-game clock to beat the game. Kind of Similar to LOZ:Majora's Mask. Did Sega lose their rights to Echo the Dolphin or Nights? Why not try doing something with those games once in a while.
Hey
Your videos are great bruv. I appreciate how articulate the narration is. You have a new subscriber/fan
See, this is what I'm talking about! Excellent video. Crash Bandicoot went through a similar problem. Crash 1 & 2 were almost all 3D & 2D platforming down corridors with some animal riding sections. Crash 3 added in more vehicle stages, but it still meshed well and never overtook the base jumping gameplay. Crash: The Wrath of Cortex tipped the scales in favor of too much variety with more weak gimmicks than actual platforming. And the series lost its identity from there until the N. Sane Trilogy resurrected it.
Here's hoping both Sonic and Crash stick to their respective base gameplay styles for us to enjoy. The N. Sane Trilogy and Sonic Mania have me hopeful.
Twinsanity?
Well said. I've never heard anyone articulate these talking points so well before.
I watched your videos several years ago. now you're back!
Lucasarts lead designer Jon Knoles (no relation to Jon Knoll of Photoshop fame) talked about this very subject in a Gamesradar podcast (I hope I can find the link again some day). He talked about how when he was designing "Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire" for Nintendo 64, the game really suffered from overreaching by trying too hard to cram lots of "variety for the sake of variety" into it without any real gameplay focus beyond the SW theming (i.e. the game zigzags between third person shooter levels, a snowspeeder level, a couple space shooter levels, and a speeder bike level). This forced the dev team to waste valuable time and resources developing five different game engines total, and he felt only one or two of the game ideas implemented were pulled off well anyway. When he designed games like Star Wars: Racer and Star Wars: Bounty Hunter afterward, he made a point of making SURE the gameplay had laserlike focus on its core elements (Star Wars: Racer is, well, just podracing with a store you can buy parts from, and Bounty Hunter is entirely a third person shooter from start to finish) instead of aimlessly pulling the gameplay in a million different directions.
I didn't play Colors, and LW tells you basically nothing about how to play it, so when I got to the green wisp I had no idea what to do. I literally just flew up on top of those walls and slowly walked across them. It was about as fun as it sounds.
LW started out fun, but as it went on, it turned out just like you said. It asked you to learn more and more unrelated mechanics without ever bothering to help you learn.
I didn't even know kicking was a thing in the game till this one part where it was necessary. I only knew it was there because they let me access a tutorial screen... that they never tell you how to access.
And the snowball boss? That was obnoxious. Maybe this one is on me, but I had no idea Sonic could still spin dash when he's STUCK INSIDE A GIANT SNOWBALL. And spin dashing is almost necessary for beating the boss.
EDIT: Dang it, I was so busy agreeing with you, I forgot to leave a Like. Lol splendid video.
I've been thinking too much about Sonic Forces lately, and came here while trying to find the video where you mentioned Sonic Force's UI. And now that you bring up movement, most of the wisps in Sonic Forces (except Cube) have a similar function.
It's a lot for me to think over, but thank you for having videos that help with design evaluation.
Actually, The core of sonic is replayability, so when you get good enough at it, you can look cool blazing through the stages without being an actual speed runner. You’re not intended to blast through the stages when you first start, at least not in the classic games.
What even is the core of Sonic anymore
Momentum.
@@captainmega6310 It's still replayability, but they have to now make it extrinsically motivating since modern day gamers aren't easily as intrinsically motivated anymore
You can still have momentum on your first try, just by rolling at the slopes. Also Classic Sonic level design give you multiple routes that can be accessed regardless of speed, so replayability is choosing the other path next time.
I have a theory that the best Sonic boost game would be Sonic colors, but replace the wisps with Sonic’s friends, make the short levels merge into bigger levels, have a good story, and have more 3D sections than 2D. And BOOM, Better than gens!
Sonic Adventure 2 is one of my favorite games of all time.
I'm honestly surprised that Sonic still exists. Or, rather, that the franchise and the character exists as the same general idea of what it was.
Sonic simply never actually made the transition into the third dimension. There are games, but they are trying to just directly translate the 2D game into 3D. It sort of makes sense because Sonic was really never much more than just a marketing tool for Sega. But if there had been a more genuine and sincere attempt to take the character and _reimagine_ him for a new medium (3D polygonal gaming) then I'd expect something much different.
in the mid to late 90's a lot of 2D franchises tried to adapt to the new environment. Some did it, some did not. Sonic is one that has somehow managed to fail time and time again without going away.
But anyway, consider that Mario in SM64 is a very different character than Mario in Super Mario World. There's still jumping, but the context is very different. 2D Mario games are actually very fast paced, but in SM64 the game encourages the player to go slower (there's no timer) and do more in a smaller environment. The range of powers and accessories was shrunk by quite a lot -- even as Mario instead gained a wider range of moves. SM64 is far more a puzzle game than an action platformer like what had come before.
I think Sonic could have had some similar changes. Allow Sonic to do quick, short dashes (to avoid obstacles, break barriers, get through timed gates, etc), but don't make the game focus on just running fast. You could have a series of lightweight puzzles that maybe center around movement and path selection. You could focus on combat in terms of Sonic attacking or evading fast. Most of all, though... the games just needed some genuine care, funding, and less restrictive development timelines. ... And while this would've been hard to do with the early 3D games, incorporating 2D sections for the occasional _run fast_ bit would have been a good complement.
Using characters other than Sonic isn't a terrible idea, though I do think they should've stuck with just Tails and Knuckles. Focus and perfect that. Heck, I could even see there being a transition _away_ from Sonic and maybe toward a more well-rounded character like Tails... but, you know, without the horrendous high pitched voice he has in come games.
Some of the 3D Sonic games actually make some of the right choices. Sonic Unleashed has a number of issues, but the fundamental idea was solid enough just very poorly implemented. Some of the biggest issues the franchise had over the years was just being flat out mediocre to awful quality regardless of base design solutions to Sonic's move set and play in a 3D environment.
The background music in the end is one of my favourite sonic musics.
I think this is a really well-researched & well-structured video, but I have a few comments:
1. I appreciate how you mentioned the Sonic Advance games. Not many people know about them, but they are great gameplay experiences that feel like the true successors to the classic games.
2. Your point about Gamma not needing to shoot to increase the time limit except in one stage is invalid. Sonic Adventure has a feature called Trial Mode, where you can re-play stages with different circumstances. In Gamma's stages, for the A-rank mission, you must beat the stage while still having a certain amount of time left. These extra objectives add much more gameplay variety than only the main game does. Ever wonder why there're more fish than just Froggy in Big's stages? You have to catch some of them in his B-rank & A-rank missions. SA2 tried to do the same thing, but it added way too many bonus objectives to each stage, and required you to get an S-rank on every single one to complete the game.
3. I think it would have been worth mentioning that the levels in SA2 aren't the same between each character. For example, Knuckles' Pumpkin Hill & Shadow's Sky Rail may be similarly themed, but unlike SA1, no other characters besides them will ever play those stages.
4. You could have spent more time talking about '06. It attempts to have a lot of gameplay variety with way too many different playstyles (vehicles, side-characters, etc.), but it comes out not working even as well as previous games did because all of the characters are once again going through the same stages. Not to mention the game is an unfinished mess that would've sucked even with more varied stages.
5. I thought Lost World worked well for what it was trying to do, but we all have opinions.
6. I'm glad you didn't mention Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric at all. It may have been worth mentioning because all of its characters do play vastly differently from each other, but I feel like it was much safer not to even bring it up, considering that it's barely even a Sonic game.
7. While on the subject of Metroidvania Sonic games, I would like to recommend Sonic Boom: Shattered Crystal on the 3DS. For starters, it's way better than its Wii U counterpart, and gives much more variety in its four characters (where Amy is replaced by Sticks). It also actually feels like a Sonic game. There is much speed to be achieved, but also a lot of replayability. Many people have been too ignorant to even know it existed, and they seriously thought that Fire & Ice was a sequel to Rise of Lyric. It frustrates me when people refer to Rise of Lyric as just "Sonic Boom" and say things like "Sonic Boom is a bad game." That could mean Rise of Lyric or Shattered Crystal. People are dumb. I freakin' hate this fanbase.
Anyways, for the most part, this was a really well-thought-out video. I enjoyed it.
Thanks!
For 2. I don't think the optional trial mode excuses the design of Gamma's stages.
For 3, I do mention that SA2 stages are unique for each character beyond similar themes and assets.
And yeah, Sonic Boom is a completely different kind of mess.
But Sonic lost world throws something new at you every level; here is kinda unleashed gameplay, now it’s a 2d stage, now it’s an auto runner, now it’s on rails like Donkey Kong Country, now it’s SUPER MONKEY BALL
Underdeveloped Galaxy ripoff
I liked the gameplay of both, sonic colors ans lost world, but I still prefer the older games, which have a good story (even if I didn't play most of them)
Here's a brain teaser: if the 'core' of a Sonic game is identified from its first three installments, but then not punctuated in the dozens of sequels, is it really the 'core' of a Sonic game? Being that the three games would be a minority, are they really what should be used to sum up the entire series? (I'm not trying to make a point. This really is just food for thought.)
I get what you're saying. The Sonic community is so divided that Sonic Team themselves don't even know what they should stick with. You have Classic, Adventure, and Boost fans making it difficult to please everyone. So they decided to release two games last year to see which game sold more. I'm not sure which sold more copies, but whichever beat the other will decide what the next Sonic game will be like.
Matthew Morrison Mania and Forces sold around the same amount of copies however Mania actually broke the million copies barrier and has gotten mostly positive feedback while Forces its a bit too early to tell however it's gotten mixed feedback and it's sales tho decent pale in compassion to other 3D titles like Generations, Adventure and even Shadow the Hedgehog.
Considering we're are getting Mania+ and a racing game next, I don't know the future for 3D Sonic... :/
Andre Stewart Source?
Sonic Mania broke 1 million copies past 8 months at $20 on 4 consoles
According to VGChartz, Sonic Forces broke 230,000 on the first week and reached a million quicker
J Prez
This is false.
for sonic adventure its a bit understandable on why they had to make each character have a different play style because characters like tails and knuckles can bypass so many obstacles that sonic would need more time to perform through:in 2D its theres 2-3 branching paths that can reach all the way up to the top of the zone which while give an advantage for certain characters still require you to use the core mechanic of speed and momentum to overcome it, however in 3d there is now a new challenge of a 3rd axis and trying to make a stage that compliments and challenges all 3 play styles is a little more difficult(a solution would be to box the characters, but the sense of freedom is pretty much lost if you were to do that, with the exception of levels that take place in caves, corridors and ancient palaces). hopefully once they have a fully realized idea of 3d sonic, they could reintroduce tails and knuckle's gameplay (if they stick to the boost gameplay, theres definatly lots of way you can play around utilizing the boost meter such as flying if used in the air, ect)
I think you have some of the best vids on video games on youtube.
I'd love to see you do an analysis on games with emergent gameplay mechanics, such as platformers like, Warioland 4 (Daniel Primed made an entire book about how layered that game is!) and Sonic CD (a ludicrously long video essay about it has been making rounds), and 'building' games like Minecraft, Banjo-Kazooie: N&B and Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom.
Great job on this video in explaining how variety in gameplay can make or break a game.
Although I do wish you would`ve covered how SA2 deals with it in more depth.
I think it goes in the right direction but then shoots itself in the foot in these ways:
1: The mechs a clunky and sluggish to control, especially without the hovering power up. They really needed to play more like SA1`s Gamma in terms of controls and physics.
2: The treasure hunting stages *are* good, but the stupid radar and the hints sometimes requiring you to have prior knowledge can cause 1st time players to get frustrated. And of course, Mad space is a thing.
3: The mech and treasure hunting stages make up a vast majority with the Speed stages, the stages that focus on the core of Sonic gameplay, are way less in amount.
So I think the multiple playstyles thing can work if its main focus is the speed stages and the other playstyles not feeling slow and clunky.
I love that Sonic Colors was my first Sonic game. It easily forged in my mind what a Sonic game was.
Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was my favorite game growing up!
The quality of this video dropped when you over-credited Sonic Colors and over-complimented Sonic Generations for being a perfect follow up to Colors.
Just as you said Sonic Adventure 2 only did the concept "partly" correct, Colors also did it partly correct, since as a 3D game, it shouldn't be predominantly a 2D game. Generations added a new character and mini games in side missions that functioned different from the core game, so Generations was in-fact a step down, as it split the core 3D Sonic gameplay into half 2D and half 3D (disregarding the 2D sections of 3D Sonic levels). Sonic Generations is also no different than Sonic Unleashed, as both games features 2 playable characters with split focus.
Jak and Daxter Misconceptions THANK YOU. I felt as though this video suffered from a bit of bias, ESPECIALLY towards Colors smh.
Personally I would rather have another Sonic Adventure game than another "Just Sonic" game. This mindset of "Just Sonic" combined with the changes made for the 2010s decade were just disastrous for the series. He's clearly biased towards the boost games that happen to have much less content.
I am... never sure what to think about the overall design of Battletoads for the NES. On one hand, the majority of its gameplay is about punching enemies and running and jumping through a level to reach the end, and it does keep the "get-to-the-end" gameplay in mind throughout the game. The means to achieve this end, however, are where I get confused. Level 1 lays out the game like a typical arcade beat-em-up, and that style of gameplay is reused briefly in Levels 3, 5 and 7. However, Level 2 instead has you propelling down a hole, able to move freely up, down, left, and right. Both Levels 3 and 5 take the slanted view from Level 1 and use it for vehicle rides where you must avoid obstacles or INSTANTLY DIE (despite your health meter). Level 4 uses the beat-em-up mechanics from Level 1 but sets them on a strict 2D plane a la Castlevania, and this 2D-platforming control style is used for most of the following levels: 6, 8, 9, 10, 12. Okay, if THIS is going to be the main gameplay style, why the hell did you wait until a quarter-of-the-way in to introduce it, Rare?! But we're not even done with variety. Most of Level 7 is another ride stage, but you fly on a 2D-plane like in Gradius, rather than a slanted angle ride like Levels 3 and 5. Level 9 is split between 2D-platforming and swimming. And Level 11 is "push the D-pad in the direction the road moves and time each turn PERFECTLY or you'll get rear-ended by the boss". (this is arguably the worst level in the game)
Pros: Every level wants you to reach the end of it, and beat-em-up mechanics are mostly consistent when the game allows you to beat-em-up.
Cons: Perspective shifts frequently between levels, OHKO traps are frequent despite your health bar, game frequently switches between beat-em-up / platforming gameplay and ride stages, Clinger Winger doesn't even control like any of the previous ride stages nor like any other level.
I disagree with a lot of your comments about Sonic Adventure. Were the other playable characters nearly as fun as Sonic? No. But the variety of play styles that the level design had to accommodate made each stage feel like a real place and not an obstacle course. There's a lot of variety in the design of each level, and this is especially true when comparing the extremely linear and corridor-like Adventure 2 levels.
In this sense, Sonic Adventure 1 is similar to Sonic 3&K. It didn't do as good of a job, but I absolutely think it made the levels more interesting.
i feel like i'm the only one that actually liked both the day AND night stages to sonic unleashed...
Never been a fan of Sonic games, but here's a idea. Three characters, Sonic, Tails and Red Sonic. They run the same levels but each has a different level's end. Sonic is fast, so the last platform at full speed allows him to reach Exit A with and fight Boss A; Tails can't reach that exit with requires full speed to break a wall or window or something, instead, he can use his helicoptail to sofly land on Exit B and fight Boss B. Red Sonic can reach Exit C by climbing a narrow well.
That's it, one game, three characters and three different outcomes.
Great video about different gameplay stiles!
The problem with Sonic Adventure 1 & 2, Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog is that the platforming isn't satisfying. Sonic takes ages to accelerate to his top speed and even longer to slow down and stop, making the player feel like they're often trying to control a rounded cement block on ice. Because Sonic can be especially difficult to control at high speeds, control is often taken away from the player with scripted set piece moments as well as springs and dashpads that are littered about a level.
I think the first three Spyro the Dragon games offer a lot to be observe in this form of analysis as well.
The first game had one main form of gameplay, and once you learn it, only a few new things are added, while the main thing that changes through the game is the difficulty and level of punishment in level design.
In general, aside from the supercharges(superspeed) introduced halfway through, you control Spyro he same and are faced with different obstacles to overcome and/or track and chase down, depending on whether your trying to beat a level or collect all of the collectables. The games difficulty curve, changing art style, and increasingly ambitious levels keep the game from feeling unvaried through its whole play time, but it isn;t particuarly long for a collecte-a-thon platformer, and the low variety becomes painfully apparent in weak boss fights and a few choice less-good levels.
Spyro 2, Ripot's Rage/Gateway to Glimmer starts to give Spyro a new power at each of the three hub worlds, each with a focus on giving Spyro ways to access more areas of all levels across the game. Not too mention each power is necessary to access the second half of each hubworld. That way, the new abilities offer access to new areas in prior levels, and can become a core level mechanic in ones afterwards. Not too mention Spyro's starting mechanics have been fine-tuned, and any new or returning abilities he starts with are educated through first level challenges.
First and my favorite is swimming, which you can usually attain after just two or three levels. This mostly allows you to reach more areas to explore in levels in order to find gems and usually find a mini-game or side challenge, of which each level has at least two of. Since it is the first power you get and you need it to move on to later levels, level design starts to integrate this ability into more of he core game-play design, making you use it to complete the main goal. Not too mention, the swimming mechanics in this game are well thought out in my opinion.
Then you learn climbing, of which is not particularly thrilling to use, so its mostly just a key to access areas you could see but couldn't reach before. his as a mechanic is a bit more frustrating as by early levels, you can tell you'll have to backtrack later to get somewhere using a power that require little challenge or though. The levels based after you get this power however use it to an interesting degree, most notably climbing a volcano and dodging flaming rocks.
The third and finale power is a head-bash, which let's you smash certain rocks and later special enemies. While not used to gain access to new places in levels, it does allow you to complete previously undo-able side-challenges. The folly of this ability is its lack being fleshed-out, as the fewest levels try to make use of it in their design. The only notable uses are smashing gem-containers previously unbreakable, and smashing previously unbreakable enemies. Once you have the ability, knowing where and how to use it is very un-challenging, its only a matter of traveling to the spot you have to use it.
Overall though, I think Spyro 2 did a half-decent job of adding gameplay variety in this regard and making feel like progression. At best like with swimming, it became a fun core mechanic. At worst such as with the head-bash, it was just an less-used tool. Although I didn't talk about the mini-games, which are hit or miss, but aren't particularly obtrusive or time consuming and are only necessary for a 100% run. So in general, Spyro 2 falls into "variety that messes and supplements the core game-play" camp.
Then there's Spyro 3, Year of the Dragon... This is game really falls into "unfocused mess territory". This game was the last game that the developer studio Insomniac Games designed, and I think they knew that it would be pretty early on. Being blunt and maybe a bit harsh, Spyro 3 plays like a simple Spyro game with 6 prototype games taped to it and packaged with a "Wii-minigames collection".
The developers have been on record as having hit a burnout on ideas for new ability for Spyro himself and they pointed to his inability to hold items due to having not opposable thumbs as the main reason. So, in order to add variety and likely to allow themselves to test new gameplay styles for the future, they created four new playable characters and added a ton of more intrusive minigames.
I won;t go into detail now because I am realizing how long this comment is, but Spyro year of the dragons; problems remind me a lot of Sonic Adventure 1 & 2's problems. Many of the new characters suffer from having gameplay too different from Spyro and not being fleshed out enough to be fun on their own.
Wow, I rambled again.
You know, even though YotD is the most flawed due to it being rushed and the other playable characters besides Spyro not being fleshed out I'm glad they exist because the reignited trilogy will give them extra polish that Insomniac didn't have time to give them.
As for potential future Spyro games (hopefully) they could be fleshed out and be used for more interesting gameplay than provided in YotD. It's still my favorite game in the trilogy though and I don't think that'll ever change for me lol.
I've watched this video some times through the years but this is the first time I realized how Sonic Colours repeated backgrounds and 2D sections are ways to make a speedy platformer last longer on the same budget.
Best part is that the backgrounds are so colourful and pretty that you don't mind speeding through simular looking areas and the controls in 2D are as excellent as the 3D controls, giving a great cohesive experience
These are all so great and informative! If I may offer some criticism, you should work on diction. The way you glide over some consonants distracts from the points you are making... which I should reiterate are *very* good points.
Sonic heroes does this well. The problem with that game is the glitches and slippery controls
Sonic heroes has boring levels and characters that play the exact same with only the differences being how long the levels are, the team attacks and tedious chaotix missions
We get it , multi-character Sonic games should only have 2D level design.
The real concern is have playable characters , at the expense of those characters.
I remember how wrong it was when Knuckles stopped protecting Angel Island entirely.
And I remember when Shadow got his own game.
(I Am All Of Me)
"Go into my history , try and solve my mystery , buckle up and hold on for dear life."
Those are the actual lyrics.
I like how Sonic Frontiers is handling it. Having the extra characters as dlc.
Nice video! I'm probably late to the conversation with this, since this video was made in 2016, but here's a few things I noted and thought to myself while watching anyway:
- 3&K's character design is not actually great because they're minor variations of Sonic; that isn't a really compelling reason to replay a game, if you're going to have mostly the same experience. I think the true brilliance comes from the *stage* design. Knuckles gets his own unique routes through levels; 19 out of 22 levels have Knuckles-only paths, some of which never even cross over Sonic's version and are 100% unique. Even Tails, who's mostly just designed to be an "easy mode" of the Sonic playthrough, got a couple short unique paths and shortcuts that only he can reach with his flight. On top of that, Knuckles also gets hard mode versions of all of the bosses (and a couple unique ones), and his abilities makes him feel much bulkier and unique from Sonic. It's practically another whole game when playing as Knuckles, but that's a compliment to the level design, not the character.
- Highlighting the above point by looking at another game Sonic Advance 1: Knuckles doesn't have his own paths, so he feels pretty meaningless in that game. But on the other side of the coin, Amy's playstyle is a great example of an gameplay shift that doesn't completely ditch the core fundamentals; she can't roll up into a ball so she has to time her attacks with a hammer, and this hammer can be used to make springs launch you farther to take unique paths and shortcuts. These changes make the gameplay feel different without alienating players. Amy was the most fun playthrough I had in Advance 1, next to my initial playthrough with Sonic; usually I just skip the other characters now.
- I actually find SA2's character design to be worse than the first game's. It copied the gameplay from the previous game but made them all worse to play, even Sonic/Shadow. Speed characters have that somersault thing that just serves to kill your momentum and could've been part of the spindash, Treasure Hunt characters have that radar already mentioned in the video, and the Mech characters were made to be overly bulky. (I know I just praised S3K Knuckles for feeling bulky, but the SA2 Mech gameplay just took that *too far*) On top of that, they're no longer "optional", the story dictates what character you have to play, instead of the player making the choice. I overall prefer SA1, if you can't tell :p
- There's something that's said all the time in the video, that "Sonic is all about speed". I personally think that's just the 90's marketing swaying people, including Sonic Team when they made the boost formula. I'd like that to be revised into "Sonic is all about *momentum*". The classic games never gave you instant top speed, only the tools to get there. You had to earn that speed by using skillful inputs to platform without slowing down. That's really what was special about the classic games that seemed to be lost by the time they went 3D. The boost formula's fine, I'm glad that Sonic Team figured out a gameplay style that they can churn out that people also like a lot, but it's not really what drew me to the series; basically, it's just not for me. :p
- Pretty much completely agreed about Lost World! Lost World's actually a really good play for anyone who wants to be a game designer: it shows how a ton of seemingly innocent design decisions on paper can combine into one big disaster :V
You just acted like Sonic Unleashed was _only_ the werehog stages. You could've opened up the section where you talked about Sonic Colors with Unleashed's daytime stages, since that came first.
13:22 AAAAAAAAAAA YOU MENTIONED MY CHILDHOOD
I’m one of the few here, but I love Sonic Lost World. Not saying your criticisms aren’t valid, but I still had a ton of fun playing it
Also another problem:
Nintendo: We need to add one new character for the new game... But should we? Hmmm...
Sega: We need to add one new character for the new game... Wait... why just one? Add THREE!!!
I played through all of Lost World and actually liked it. One of the big strengths was that it was able to have 3D sections without many camera issues, especially because it often used a far away overhead view, so it almost plays like a top down game. Yeah, it has some bad parts, but it actually has meaningful 3D sections. It's not like every other recent sonic game, where they completely give up on having good 3D, and make the game 80% 2D platforming.
Sonic needs to try good 3D again. Sonic Mania is good, keep it fully 2D, but we need a fully 3D sonic game. Mario Odyssey shows that 3D platforming doesn't have to be dead.
Lost World 3DS is genuinely a decent game
Late to the party, but sorry to say I don't feel like this video adds much to the conversation.
I think us sonic fans have already felt a lot of this or the points have been compounded and expanded by the many many Sonic reviewers out there..your other videos felt smarter and had something to say but this one.
One misphrasing I feel was not clearly expressing that what Sonic Colors nails is flow more than the other stuff you mentioned there.
Not only would it have got your point across better, even if you kinda said it the long winded way, it would have cleared a lot of arguments against Sonic Colors here.
Sonic developers should let go and stop trying to do linear and platform based gameplay. They should try non linear semi open world focused on fluid and fast gameplay. No platforms please. Jump precisely means you have to stop and be carefull.
I heard that originally the werehog stages were meant for Knuckles, and that honestly would have been best. Because they are not bad, and people probably would have liked them more if they weren't part of Sonics gameplay.
And to think, this video came before the abysmal Sonic Boom and Sonic Forces.
It's such a shame, too. Colors and Generations (and, to a lesser extent, even Unleashed) brought some light at the end of the tunnel that was the seemingly endless sea of mediocre 3D Sonic games. Then came the games from Lost Worlds onward, and all they've proven was that the light was actually an oncoming train.
After the whirlwind success of Mania and the dismal failure of Forces, I can't help but wonder if Sega's finally going to give up on the notion of Sonic in 3D and just shift to retro-style 2D games from here on out. After all, the latter is the only formula that's been proven to work consistently.
@Johnny Buddy Colors is nonlinear unlike Forces.
This is Sly Cooper's specialty I think
Sly 2 had the perfect amount, Sly 3 went a bit too far with it though
Great video! I definitaly agree with your main point provided :)
Well in my opinion, a game that changes completely may also seem bad to me at the beginning, but it makes me struggle to pass a challenge I've never asked for (like in life), and when I complete that slope, I feel fine. Whereas a level that can be finished in less than a minute simply isn't funny.
The reason why sonic 2 and 3 were epic, was that besides sonic was the guy around which the main game was centered on, he could also turn into a super saiyan, unlike miles or knuckles.
About the question in the end, the original Jak and Daxter was a game I always loved. It was a semi open world platformer ala Mario Oddyseey where you collect batteries by exploring the map and CHOOSING what to play. So if you WANT to do a fishing game or fight a boss it's on your own volition. Jak 3 on the other hand made me deeply dissapointed. The game FORCED me to play minigames to continue w the story, racing games, gliding games, etc, being way more linear and boring.
I miss how the OG Jak was and would love to see it again
10:45 I wanna play this Sonic game with gameplay variety across every stage. 🤯
The problem with Sonic 3 & Knuckles & Mania is that, it doesn't feel like another campaign, but it feels like replaying the same game again.
Also you never precised that Colours' gameplay was inspired by Unleashed's Daytime stages
I despise how everyone praises Colours and Generations while dismissing Unleashed even though it created the Boost in 3D. That'd be like considering Sonic 1 as a bad game but praising the hell of 2 or 3 & Knuckles
And I know what people will say " But the werehog is awful !!"
Bro. I know it's not Sonic-esque.
But if we judge the werehog out of the "Sonic" thingy, what is it ?
It is a *GOOD* beat-them-up gameplay (while not as profound as Bayonetta or God of War) mixed up with *GOOD* slow, more traditional platforming
If we add that to an phenomenal OST, to the eye-candy-esque graphisms, to the charm and polish the game have, why is this game compared to the likes of Shadow and '06, and not to its sequels gameplaywise ?
Also for the Elise thing, did you know that in the makings of Sonic 1, the blue hedgehog was supposed to have a human girlfriend called Madona ? (+ the RogerRabbit movie)
Phil VDLM
For S3&K/Mania the whole point of the having multiple characters was that you could find hidden goodies or alternate routes allowing for replayability. It could be considered replaying the same game if the player doesn't bother exploring the levels, but it's not the case with these two.
The reason why people praise Colors and Gens is because they both stick as platformers and don't introduce mechanics that don't mesh with Sonic's core gameplay: speed AND platforming.
Unleashed did indeed introduce the boost, but it also involved the werehog and since the werehog had more stages and took longer and being a drastic switch from the daytime stages which were reviewed positively, most people didn't really like it and had a bias against it.
The werehog isn't awful(in fact compared to other styles found in previous sonic games, it was pretty well done) it was just unnecessary. And comparing the werehog to other beat-em-up games like God of War and Devil May Cry, it's not up to par.
I don't hate Unleashed, but I don't think it's great. Should it have been lambasted at launch? No. Should it get criticism for it's flaws? Yes.
The game should have just had the day time stages packaged in alone, cause if Colors and Gens proved anything, people like it when Sonic is about Speed and Platforming.
Sontho It's not because it's not as good as games like DMC or Bayonetta that's it's bad though.
And yes it is somewhat unnecessary, but I'd like to compare it to something else.
Like a dessert for exemple. If , for a dessert, you had in your plate one piece of an absolutely delicious chocolate cake, but you also had some cheese, not the best of the best of the best of course, but still good.
Would you call this dessert to be bad ? I'd be strange to have these two types of food reunited on the same plate, for sure, but that wouldn't mean it's not great (at least to me).
That's exactly how I see Unleashed
Phil VDLM
I never said the werehog was bad, and even by beat-em-up standards it's not awful. It's just that there are other games that do the same thing like the werehog, but on a much larger and better scale.
I see the werehog as like a basic salad with no dressing being served alongside with apple pie. The salad is fine, but a person is most likely gonna enjoy the apple pie more and wonder why they got salad. That's how I see Sonic Unleashed.
Knuckles's campaign is vastly different from Sonic and Tails's in S3K. It felt so fresh to me, from the level design differences to the bosses being different, to being able to abuse my glide and prior knowledge of the levels in order to get the emeralds much more smoothly.
In Mania, not so much. But he at least has 2 vastly different stages, his own boss, and certain level design that caters to him throughout the game.
I never understood why Colors & Generations got so much praise. They butchered Sonic's character, had poor story quality, & felt like they didn't offer much because of the "Just Sonic" mentality. At least Werehog felt like a different character than Sonic. Also Elise really is overhated, & I actually prefer Shadow the Hedgehog over Colors, while 06 really has an underrated story.
Honestly I think Lost world had some really fun and cool ideas. And if balanced right it couldve been one of the best games in the series. Perhaps if each world had its own style of gameplay mixed in with the original formula, and then you could play them in any order?
Another person who doesn't see one of the key different between Sa1 and Sa2.
You want to elaborate on that maybe?
+Design Doc Gladly. It about the radar in the treasure hunter stages in both games. You see Sa1, didn't have a ranking system. So I it didn't matter how long you took or how bad you suck at it.
Then Sa2 happen. And it brought a ranking system. So now it mean something when you beat a stage.
If the radar had stay the same it would had been to easy to get a B or even A rank. So it had to be the way it was.
I will say the emerald shards should had been brighter. Not as bright as Sa1 but a little more noticeable. They kind of hard to see sometime.
Not only do you feel like you earned that A rank for not relying on the radar 100% of the time. Plus not using the monitors help a lot. You really earn that A rank.
CharlesUnleashed Ok, that’s kind of irrelevant to what the videos focused on. Regardless, the main issue that most people have with the SA2 radar is that it only tracks 1 specific gem at a time, padding out the stage in the worst possible way. This is exacerbated by the size of stages like Pumpkin Hill, Death Chamber, and Meteor Herd. I still enjoyed hunting more than most seemed to (got all emblems, and yeah it’s pretty satisfying to get those A ranks) but it’s a valid criticism.
I agree that the SA1 Radar wouldn't have worked well with the hint system in SA2.
Well... Sonic Adventure 2 is still the best Sonic game ever created. And as for colors... eh, I actually like decent stories in Sonic games, which it seriously lacks.
Yep. SA2 also has some alright mods, like the randomizer, that adds more replay value.
I think Super Paper Mario is like one of the best games that has differing game styles.
Always wonder if I'm the only one who thinks that Sonic 1 had solid platforming.
If you knew how Sonics physics works, it was a joy to get through Marble Zone...
Thinking of variety, they are now making a film based on So-... Wait...
They puts different gameplay styles because some people wants to play in different styles. They don't want to just Sonic and speed platforming. To me, only Unleashed and Generations done well. Werehog sections not bad at all. With combos of Werehog, these sections are can be fun.
You don't think Sonic Adventure 2 did it right ?
I would say that the Adventure duology did it great for the most part. Treasure Hunting & Shooting were great, as were the Tails race stages.
And well, there's the issue of "What can we do with these characters we created in adventure?"
Good stuff
10:33 it wasn’t a misstep. It was a misplacement. Somehow, the devs lost the Hedge Physics 2 engine 😤😓
Hedgehog engine is a graphics engine. Not a physics engine.
It isn't compatible with the WiiU.
sonic needs to have a fast paced level design. the problem with 3d sonic is the camera and sub par automated controls. sonic adventure was pretty bad when it came to amy, knuckles and big. sa2 had less variety but made the emerald hunt stages worse because of the linear radar unlike in sa1 where the radar detects any shard. tails in adventure 1 was like sonic but had the racing gimmick.
ironically, the radar is less relevant in hard mode because the shards are in fixed locations.
The only thing i don't like about Lost world is the fact the controls are way too sharp compared to Generations
Wow, this aged badly. Consensus really took a 180
*shows them freedom planet*
Freedom Planet's reeeeeeal good!
I get that this is a somewhat older video, so there was an unspoken obligation to constantly shit on 06 and never give it any credit, but in retrospect I thinks its a shame that you mostly overlooked it in your analysis.
06 sorta marries the approches in variety of the Adventure games and Heroes. The campaigns are trimmed down to three, but the roster is much larger thanks to the amigo system. It allows the characters to function more as brief shake-ups to the gameplay that still follow A to B level design, instead of giving them larger sections that threaten to deviate too far from the core gameplay. The focus is still on high speed platforming, with Sonic and Shadow playing very similarly, and Blaze filling that role for Silver's story.
Obviously the execution wasnt up to par, but I think its a promising system thats woefully overlooked.
How does somebody put Jak and Daxter in Sly Cooper in a short list and not include Ratchet & Clank
R&C is comparatively more focused around its core shooting & platforming than the other 2 series which have a considerably wider range of gameplay styles.
Sonic kissing a human woman is the only time the blue rat has had any value
i kinda miss genesis era games like battle toads that you nearly can say what it is genre is lol
I love how you doesn't even talk about sonic boom and forces
1. Boom is an odd spinoff that went in a completely different direction, was made by a completely different team, and was screwed over by Sega's management.
2. Forces came out well over a year later after this video.
@@DesignDoc Thanks for the explanation sir 😳
And then they did Sonic Forces, where they returned to Colors and Generations style gameplay, but botched it because they forgot to do good level design, and instead created levels you can hold boost to get through in a minute.
Also they decided to go grim dark edge lord on the story again, which sucked as much as it sucked in Sonic Adventure 2 and Shadow the Hedgehog.
if i remember correctly, the 3ds version of lost world wasnt that bad, though i havent played it in years
Pretty good video, I liked it! Especially since you didn't bring up Rise of Lyric, given that it wasn't even developed by Sonic Team and isn't a main game at all. A few criticisms, though.
One, the "lol, Sonic kissing a human" joke was just kinda bad. The joke has been done to death, and isn't even that funny. Do people see the same comedy in Roger and Jessica Rabbit? I dunno, it's just an old joke that's lost any luster it once had by this point.
Two, you kind of ignored that Colors and Generations have a very different focus from the Classic games, and even claimed the focus was the same. Classic Sonic, as well as its Advance series cousins, is about momentum and slope physics based platforming. The terrain slopes and curves, and Sonic reacts to that with very real weight. Combining only 3 simple actions, running, jumping, and rolling, you could explore the zones in multiple paces and not necessarily in a straight stretch of land. Platforming, speed, and exploration not only complemented each other, but blended, and combined into one fluid experience.
Boost Sonic, on the other hand, has very different principles. The physics are practically non existent, and the control is stiff. Slopes are either rare, or totally automated in the case of any loops or corkscrews. Speed and platforming are almost entirely seperate, with speed just being stretches of flat land with occasional obstacles, and platforming being very blocky and too precision based for the momentum these games should have. The control scheme is overly complex to make the simplicity of the gameplay seem more complex than it really is. Those actions you mentioned solidified it, really. Jumping, boosting, quick stepping, sliding, drifting (which, by the way, just feels off to have in a 3D platformer and seems like a poor attempt to patch up the stiff controls). Notice the lack of rolling.
Not to say I hate the boost games, they have their appeal as simple arcadey fun, but they still don't GET Sonic. I probably just sounded really rambley, so if you wanna see my point talked about much better, watch ShayMay's Sonic Spitball series. It's a long, but really good watch.
I would say that both share a core focus of speed and platforming, but they take drastically approaches towards it. Just as you said, Classic Sonic is much more physics based while modern is boost based. This video was less about how Sonic as a series stays true to that same core and more about how each individual game sticks to it's version of that core of Speed and Platforming. Sonic 3 and Colors stick pretty close to their core while Adventure and Lost World are kind of all over the place.
I'm not particularly disgusted about a human kissing a hedgehog in a world were humans and some animals live together, but because it was a girl kissing A DEAD hedgehog she met THREE DAYS AGO. Honestly I rather prefer a somewhat clunky game who does not play by itself than a fluid yet automatic gameplay; there's a reason why Adventure 2 was better received than EVERY boost game and people had high expectations for Sonic boom.
Also, boost games have a HUGE ISSUE: The gamestyle hinders the narrative since only Sonic gets the chance to play, and you cannot ditch characters people care for (Altough bringing them for no reason is also a bad idea).
8:04 "or wathever what this" lol
Not sure if you cover this somewhere else, but the comments about multiple characters with unique traits, playing in the same level; sounds like Donkey Kong 64. That game felt tedious at times but it might be an example where this was done "better"?