Hey everyone! Don’t forget to join the Discord channel! It’s free! Link in the description! If you want to support the project financially, join the channel and get some fun perks!
@@joeburnover4110 it’s not something I’ve thought about yet. We are still a long way from something that’s finished so cross that bridge when we come to it 😃
@@Karnivor-0us yeah it’s a good point. It might also be that getting to full maturity more quickly is more valuable with animals because plants could start to fruit and animals could help disperse the seeds, etc.
@@EightLittleBearstrampling by large animals, defenses against (specific) herbivores and the presence of nutrients as a result of dead animals and feces could lead to interesting effects too.
Honestly, what I liked most was seeing the plants completely cover the colder edges, hibernate when the winter came, and then just keep going, flashing between green and brown.
@@samueltrusik3251 the interesting part about that which I forgot to mention in the video is that going brown actually indicates that the plant is struggling to remain hydrated (as opposed to explicit hibernation). The fact that extreme latitudes which have volatile seasons caused this to happen en masse and in unison wasn’t explicitly designed.. it is closer to (although not exactly) an emergent behaviour in the overall environment (I.e. I didn’t design hibernation, but the plants evolved it anyway).
@EightLittleBears That's really cool, it shows that it's the most efficient way, so it evolves independantly of other things, that's why it evolved in real life
the plants evolve longer lifespans (and size) because the additional time to mature isn't enough to dissuade them. Throw in periodic fires (idk maybe once every few decades) that have a probability to kill each plant in the tile, with a bias so that larger and older plants have a higher chance to burn. That should give you enough selection pressure against huge ancient trees. you'll also want to implement fire resistant seeds
@@christian9540 What kind of fires are those if you don't mind me asking? My initial thought is that in this simulation, lightning strikes are the most common way to start a fire (except in hotter regions) and so, it makes sense that taller trees burn first since they have higher chance to be struck.
@cavallone009 you make a simple yet fatal mistake. A lightning strucks a single tree not every tree in the forest. Trees have a big protective shell which smaller plants do not have. As such, they are a lot more resistent to fire. Some trees even only spread due to fire. Ask yourself, what is more easy to die: a goldfish or a whale? Trees are the whales or goliaths of the plants. And if trees would burn, everything underneath would burn as well, especially with the fallin tree parts nuturing it. Just google survivability of plants from wild fire. Even though natural wild fires are rare, most wildfires we have are causes by humans (about 9 of 10). If not severe, most trees survive wildfires. And btw, natural combustions are almost non existent. Dry areas may also burn a lot more, but they burn a lot faster too, as vegetation is spare. And after the fire the burned plants nuture following plants. In fact, after a fire an qarea is most fertile.
The population never decreased probably because there were no chaotic factors like the real world. Natural disasters, animals, mutations in the plants, plant viruses, fungal parasites, erosion, droughts, etc could all cause plants to die off or severely decrease in population
It's likely going to be very difficult to simulate properly the biodiversity of rainforests without having to zoom in to focus on a specific location & then creating 3D renditions to accommodate the various plants at ground-level, in the canopy, & everywhere in between. While trees in rainforest biomes are numerous, their general strategies for success are quite similar. What's interesting is that the simulation chose to prioritize growth in the desert, but that might have something to do with their proximity to water. Something I've noticed is that while plant growth near water, particularly rivers & river mouths, isn't necessarily diverse, you will see a slight uptick diversity in trees, algae, & moss, specifically. I don't know if there's proper research to back any of what I'm saying up, but I am a nature nerd who grew up on documentaries, so it's just some observations I've noticed.
@@MildlyOCD interesting points. I have been thinking about how to visualise the diversity of ground-level plants in rainforests but haven’t come up with a solution yet.. I’m sure one will come! It’s a good point about the similar strategies of trees in rainforests as well. That isn’t something I thought of!
@@EightLittleBears Maybe you could do some sort of parasite plants like vines that abuse taller plants for easier access resources like sunlight in dense areas.
It's always fun to see thatQ even at such simple and small scales, complex interactions and chaos can arise! It'd be interesting to see how different types of seeds would effect the germination system? Like smaller seeds get fewer chances to germinate, but more can be made, and they can travel farther. While large nut-like seeds get more chances to germinate but can't travel as far, and the parent plant must use more resources to produce them!
Yeah I agree! Plus birds and stuff can carry the smaller seeds around so it can introduce some interesting interactions when animals come back into it!
I want to see more competition between the plants, maybe soil fertility that is drained to promote size, and fertility goes up from death? And perhaps seed dispersal distance vs time, maybe separate optional conditions for germination?
Thanks for the comment! And agreed these are all good ideas. The update I’m currently working on includes animals carrying seeds, so it’s a start on the dispersal point!
I heard someone say that comments don't affect the algorithm anymore, just watchtime and likes and subscriptions (and presumably super thanks and channel joins too). But I don't have any sources for that to back it up.
Ecologist here, awesome sim for starters, I'm doing something similar atm too! :) Something you may have fun looking into would be canopy cover/live crown ratio to add more constraints to each cell/tile for plant germination/growth over time. Long story short, forests have different subcategories or levels within their vertical structure such as the undercanopy, shrub layer, and so on. Bigger trees block out a ton of sunlight. We see this effect amplified in old growth forests where giant firs for example steal almost all available sunlight before it ever reaches the forest floor leaving a blanket of needles and some thin grass patches and nothing more. Sometimes there is moss or other really hardy plant life but my point is once a forest hits this stage its incredibly hard for new saplings to germinate in the shrub layer and grow to any real size unless they are "shade-tolerant" species like eastern hemlock or northern white cedar. So attaching a shade-tolerance value to your plant types, summing them all up for a given cell, and factoring that in may produce some nice old growth forests in suitable cells and help minimize over germination while being realistic. I could talk about the science here all day so I'll stop now. lol Keep making these, they are wonderful!!
On earth, Savannahs and Tallgrass Prairies are the second most diverse terrestrial ecosystems. So that your simulation has them as the most diverse actually makes a lot of sense.
12:56 Did you notice that you made a very nice metaphor for us humans at this point? Giants - that is, brilliant people with world-changing abilities - are less rare than you might think. But most of them can't develop to their full size (they, or rather their abilities, remain stuck in a half-grown or seed stage) and at some point they have to pass on their abilities to their children and hope that the next generation will manage to become the giants that they truly are.
Not sure if you already considered it, but it might be an interesting idea to make the temperature tolerance a variable too, with higher tolerances allowing for viability in a larger range of environments (or in more extreme seasons). Not sure what the tradeoff for this generalism should be, perhaps an overall lowered germination chance so they have better chances in varied environments (since other plants wouldn't be able to germinate half of the time at all), but worse chances in stable environments.
Yeah that is something I am considering but, like you say, the trade-off is the tricky part.. It will probably be something along the lines of specialists being generally better at everything as long as they are in their environment.
@@EightLittleBears My first idea is to make them more sensitive to overcrowding than specialists, both when trying to germinate and while growing. The only problem is that if they can't get a foothold early, they may not be able to at all. My other idea is to separate the temperature tolerances for germination and growth and allowing them to mutate separately. If they drift apart, these plants can germinate during seasons beyond their tolerance then grow when conditions are more favorable. However, they'll probably need shorter sapling stages and lifespans to capitalize on this in environments where this difference is big enough. They also risk their two tolerances drifting too far apart, making them have less viable environments due to there not being enough change. At least, that's my theory.
@@strcmdrbookwyrm great theory. I think separating the seed’s evolutionary story from the plant itself is particularly interesting and the code could probably be re-used for things like chrysalis stages in insects!
@@EightLittleBears What about plants with less enviromental diversity get an overall improvement on many stats, but the more adaptable the plant becomes, it gets a gradually lower bonus until it may become an actual hinderance.
I've been watching for a while now, and this is amazing to see how far its come and where its going! I can't wait to see how the creatures adapt to this!
I know you're try not to make the simulation too complex, but there are a couple major things that you got wrong in your assumptions. First, capillary action; which all plants use to transfer water from roots to leaves. This is a completely passive function that requires no energy from the plants. Second, conifers or evergreens continue to absorb water even at below freezing temperatures, just at a slower rate. Deciduous plant are the only one the quit growing in the winter.
Amazing video! I've always been fascinated with the thought of simulating evolutionary processes and it's really interesting to see how you implemented it. Great work!
Another really strong video! This is one of my favorite projects being documented right now. Keep up the great work and can't wait to see how creature dynamics are bidirectionally influenced with plant dynamics.
I am curious how the build would be affected by different seed distribution methods. For example how some trees only spread seeds after a fire where nutrients the the plant life used get added back into the soil
This simulation perfectly demonstrates successional ecosystems, which start with smaller grass like organisms and generally morph into larger tree like organisms over time.
This is a great analogy for why alignment is so hard. In retrospect it’s easy to be hand wavy, or even totally understand what’s being a complicated process, but getting it right on the first shot is almost impossible. Getting dynamic complicated systems to do exactly what you want is really really hard
One problem, maybe already mentioned, is that plants also consume nutrients from soil, not just water. And diferent plants consume diferent nutrients, ergo crop rotation.
I feel like surface water should evaporate relative to temperature and elevation, also how "full" of water a tile can be should be based on neighbor tiles too, for example, if it rained a lot next to a river, it would top it up but realistically it's already very well hydrated as it's lost less, and can share less, but in a desert X rainfall on one tile would be spread amongst surrounding tiles quite quickly and also evaporate faster.
i just genuinely love these videos and i hope eventually your programs and programs like this can be used to fully show the development of terrestrial life on other planets from specific adaptations and unique evolutionary developments. like "spore" but rather than a human creating a random funny monstrosity its a ai system using already pre documented evolutionary adaptations mixed with potential x factor adaptations to create and simulate new creature. i also want these types of simulations to be implemented into games like rpg's where after a while if you aren't carefull either you will end up devastating an ecosystem due to over hunting/fishing/ resource gathering etc or there will be a species that adapts to better kill the player
Loved everything about this! The attention to detail is crazy. One suggestion I'd have would be to allow greater effects of geographical isolation to produce more varying effects on adaptation. As an example, having high snowy mountain tiles at the very centre of the map could be a great addition. It'd be incredible to see more speciation and convergent evolution in these simulations and I look forward to what's to come!
This was very fun and interesting to watch. Think you will find the "ecological succession" concept interesting. Also, plants contribute to environmental change. So, for example, we didn't start with a set environment for "rainforest" but the growth of forest is what brought even more rain and with that, more resources and variety. Latitude and altitude play a huge role in that too. My memory is not fresh on this but thank you. Your video sparked my interest on this topic again 😁
Loving the new stuff and how much care you put into calculating each factor as thoroughly as you can reasonably expect. Very excited to see what's next!
Hello! Loved the video and this project! I am about to start a similar project for myself. I think a few others already mentioned this in the comments but I believe an important reason your populations trended towards long lifetime was lack of disturbance regimes. Plant ecosystems are heavily influenced by disturbance regimes, which promotes a gradient of adaptations across two different general strategies: R-selected (short-lived, adaptable, fast reproductive cycles) or K-selected (long-lived, stable, long reproductive cycles). K-selected features are more common in stable areas (with very long time between disturbances, for exampe coastal temperate forests of the Pacific North West a.k.a. redwoods) vs R-selected being common in dynamic areas (for example, alders, willows, etc, in floodplains). There is also a tremendous amount of diversity and trade-offs in different reproductive styles (wind vs animal polinated, wind vs animal dispersed, hypogeal vs epigeal seeds, etc etc). But I think adding in disturbance regimes would be the biggest first step if you wanted to refine the simulation. I would consider how each disturbance regime affects certain organism types. For example: Low-severity but high frequency fire typically kills many smaller plant species (though most are adapted to regenerate vigorously) but only rarely kills larger, mature trees. High-severity, low frequency fire kills most of what it touches, but is typically patchy on the landscape (doesn't affect 100% of the forest). Windthrough hits most tall organisms in a relatively small patch. Insects typically kill only mature trees. You could have disturbance goverend by a few factors: (1) severity-mortality, (2) severity-size, (3) frequency, (4) what features it selects for (young, old, tall, etc). Also, what software and language are you creating this in? For my project I am planning to learn Godot but I am curious what you used :) thanks for the awesome content!
That’s for the detailed comment! I am planning on adding disturbances at some point, and I like the breakdown you have summarised as low-sev/hig-freq and vice versa! I use Unity for the bulk of the development and I draw all the art on an iPad using an app called Procreate. I suspect Gadot would be fine as well but I like Unity as a product (even if its leadership has been “rocky” lol).
Great Job, Putting Taiga next to Desert is kinda strange What you really need is Seasons!!! Its like a Hard Reset for small plants (winter) and just a smaller fall back for bigger plants ;)
When you add animals you could work with territory now since you can simulate amount of space on tile based on amount plants since its no longer linear. You could assign base amount of space on every tile and create system where more/taller plants mean more space.
I think there are a few conditions you could change here to get results closer to the real world. Max height, max age, plus a kind of correlation between height and age, and finally a differing absorbency rate between different types of ground. Also for your map you would need to address that one of the key aspects of a rainforest is temperature, same with other biomes. Rainforest doesn't simply mean huge rainfall or there would be several in new york state where there are none instead, the other key aspects are the temperature and absorbency of the soil (for example new york state doesn't have rainforests because the soil layer is too thin after the ice age scraped it away so the rainwater doesn't retain well enough to support a rainforest)
Interesting - the simulation uses temperature and precipitation to determine biomes based on the Whittaker Biome System. But it doesn’t (yet) take into account things like soil quality which is something I’d like to tackle in the future! Thanks for the comment!
A bit late, but I want to try and give my 2 cents about why lifespan increased so drastically despite the lower time to reproduce. I think it boild down to 2 factors: 1. Resources being too bountiful and 2. Inability to compete. Point 1 refers to that fact that it doesn't seem like any resource other than space actually depletes. Water is infinite (although the amount differs based on the tile), CO2 never decreases, and soil quality/nutrients aren't a factor in this simulation. On the last idea, actually, I do think they should be included since, although the process of photosynthesis does lead to the creation of carbohydrates, it doesn't lead to ATP; there's one more process inbetween where molecules break and recombine where ATP is actually produced (I think 5-6 times more than in photosynthesis), and this cycle as it's called uses other nutrients that you can only obtain from the soil, like Magnesium or Nitrogen etc. Having a soil quality factor that slowly depletes over time as it's used but replenishes once dead plants "decompose" (could just be once they die) would inherently lead to a lot more diversity. You should look into succession for even more factors/how soil quality could be balanced! Back on topic of infinite resources though, since there's nothing to compete for, there's very little competition between individuals, meaning that there's nothing to actually kill off the plants once the simulation more or less hits equilibrium. It's like humans in real life: we have so many easily accessible resources and medications now that there's little to no reason to compete, so our lifespans continue to increase. Now onto Point 2. I might be wrong since you did mention you gave the plants ways to compete, but since you weren't very clear on what they were, I can only assume those ways to compete are root size and mass. The issue is, however, like I said above: there's no reason to compete over water because, as far as I can tell, there's no limit to it. The only actual resource they're competing for is space. And here is where things get interesting. Since, as far as I can tell, there's no way for plants to kill each other, that means that they are incapable of competing for space once that space is already occupied. Since being overfilled on a tile is damaging to ALL plants on that tile, they try to avoid it because there's no incentive. But if you are incapable of competing for space once that space is taken, how do you get the space? Simple: you never let go of that space. By growing to live longer lives, the plants are effectively killing any and all other plants before they can even germinate by occupying the space for longer and longer. All a plant needs is 1 descendant that will keep passing down its genes, so the slow reproduction rate isn't an issue here. And I think those "random trees" are the culmination of this process: the seedling stage takes so long because you don't want other plants to take it once you die, and the adult stage is so short because you want the best chance for your seeds to take your space once you die. And then the cycle repeats itself. There's 3 ways you could solve this issue: 1. Make more finite resources (like water, CO2, and soil quality/nutrients) 2. Add more ways for plants to compete (maybe some release chemicals that kills other plants around them, or they strangle and sap the nutrients from a different plant etc.) 3. Add more ways for plants to die or factors to worry about (like wind resistance, soil hardness/softness, rain and intense weather etc.) The Sapling is a really in-depth evolution sim with very advanced plant evolution. Your simulation doesn't have to have all of these factors at once, of course, and I'd argue looking at only a few factors at a time can be even more interesting than 30 factors you can hardly keep track of at times, but if you want to see how others have dealth with plant evolution, this is the game I'd highly recommend!
@@ceawithac4095 wow thanks for the detailed comment! So, water is finite on the tiles but it replenishes (around 10% of total tile capacity) every turn. Bigger roots allow plants to take a bigger share of the available water every turn. That said, I think that, because so many of the plant became small and grew very slowly, the amount of water on tiles was easily enough to sustain them so it was sort of “infinite adjacent” lol. Solar energy is also kind of limited in a different way. There is a max amount plants can get from a given tile based on their overground mass (and indirectly through other stats) but this doesn’t deplete at all. That said plants compete through height and overground mass because bigger/taller plants have better access to light in a congested environment. Soil/nutrient quality and atmospheric effects are all things I want to look into! In terms of “more ways to die”, there should be some of this in the next update when animals come into the equation (and natural disasters at some point). Also, I’ve not played the Sapling but I’ve been watching the videos for years and love them!
@@Solitario9475 sounds like a great idea! I think there is something similar by another UA-cam dev called Germanunkol. Some very cool evolving monsters there!
Too much calculation and effort that goes into something that's not the primary gameplay loop. Additionally, probably a huge amount of backlog data needed to be kept to rationalise how the world has reached its current state. Newer players would have an increasingly massive data dump to deal with. On the gameplay design side, it would also be hard to design gameplay elements and mechanics around a world that keeps changing.
@ No it doesn’t. The world doesn’t actively evolve like that. It has a bunch of made up monsters that spawn randomly. No actual evolution just a false sense of it. So my question still stands. Also you sound like you’ve never played spore so definitely go try it out but you’ll find I’m correct. You can even just look at videos and you’ll see the same creatures that ver and over except the ones the player actually develops.
@@matthewchinmingwei6721 There’s always a way to strip useless data since you don’t need to remember the old evolutions only the ones happening now, you can also simplify the evolution stats, you could have the game run off of a server instead of the players computer meaning you could have multiplayer as a main mechanic and you can dramatically slow the process down so it uses less power and has the world feel natural instead of rapidly changing every five minutes. It could be a game where you have to play on the same server/world over and over to see the effects.
I love this sm, evolution is always interesting just to watch but your va really adds a lot. I do wish there was a Key next to the map for the biomes, i quickly forget what means what but that might just be a me problem lol
add forrest fires. it resets curtain areas, killing old life. and increases local vertility. not only is it acurate, but once you add co2 and o2 it can have a strong effect
I wonder if you could attach some of the values, like root mass and such, to the kinds of food that the plant counts as. So that there's additional tradeoffs to growing really big or such in that having a lot of giant leaves means that all the leaf-eaters really want to know where you live, or having giant root networks mean that the root eaters show up and start digging you up and so on. Or if being a small plant means that when plants get munched on, you get less likely to be nibbled on then bigger plants because... well, you're small. Though I'm assuming eventually you're going to be adding things like poison, berries/fruit (and how they spread seeds around) or just having really big thorns to the simulation as well, which will also make the plant life and the herbivore life more exciting when they show up. Also, can plants still get light energy during night time? If so, that seems a bit off.
Very interessting Video. You gained a new sub:). I love EvoSims but have almost no knowledge of them. I got a few questions about this sim tho. What was the parameter that the plants evolved towards? Were the plant categories pre selected (trees, shrubs etc)? Or were there any categories, it seemed like it was because of the Art. Did the plants have to make a tradeoff while evolving? And how did the plants procreate?
Brilliant video, it’s super impressive what you’ve done. One of the things I’ve always been fascinated by is the feedback loop between biology and environment. You’ve started out with some base geographies. How interested are you at allowing each tiles biome type change based on precipitation, elevation and the plants growing in it?
Thanks for the comment! I am quite interested in changing environments. The current geographies are calculated based on temp and precipitation (which by proxy is impacted by things like altitude and latitude), but they are only calculated once at the start. In the future I want to add things like plate tectonics and atmosphere which will cause the environment itself to evolve over time.
Im super excited for this project. I’ve wanted to do something like this for a long time and seeing what you’ve put together is pretty amazing, keep up the incredible work!
It sucks that you made them compete so much because it’s actually a myth that taller trees with more leaf coverage steal resources from ones they overshadow, but we learned recently that because the roots are all intermingled, the big ones share the excess they get with the little ones they ever shadow. Unless the plants are like weeds, they usually share resources via their root system, and they’ll share other information and help. I don’t remember all of it but look it up. It’s really cool
That is highly dependent on the plants in question. You say "Unless the plants are like weeds ...", but weeds are just plants that people don't want, so that term has no meaning in nature. Of course, plants we observe near each other in nature will have little to no competing between them, because, if they did, the least efficient of them would have died off already. Plants, like animals, adapt to fill certain niches in their environments. So, while this simulation might benefit from leaving a little more room for plants to find ways to function together, it is absolutely realistic for them to be competing for resources.
You also need to factor in seed germination type. For example some seeds are spread by wind, some by animals, some do not grow unless heated by a wild fire. There is some research on the walnut trees and how they will overproduce seed every couple years to ensure new trees and underproduce to cull the scavengers from eating all their seeds from the birth booms after a overproduce year.
I am not sure why this was recommended by my algorithm, but I have been watching a lot of AI in the past week so it knew me. This was actually a really solid start at looking at plant evolution. I am an astrobiologist, so I theorize on what life might look like outside our planet and how it might form and evolve. To do this, I look at how life on earth did the same thing
I was thinking about creating a very similar tile-based simulation. With sometimes lava coming up from under the ground and then these new mountains would emit water from under the ground as well later, and the different altitude would make the water flow. Creating it for a game where you have to survive, figure out laws of this nature and taking advantage of them and such.
I do! Though I’ll admit I had to look back at what your comments were… sorry I only have a mediocre at best memory 😅. Natural disasters are still in the plan!
found you just now, loved everything and good luck with stuff! also, maybe consider a different approach to the member stuff idk how much youtube takes from that, but something like ko-fi (not patreon because it seems they take way too much) could be better in a way that you get a higher % again, idk the numbers but consider that! the best for you!
@@sundown456brick thanks so much for the comment and the advice! I’ll check out ko-fi for sure. One thing I like about youtube is that it keeps everyone together and I thought that might be beneficial for live premieres etc.
@EightLittleBears That's a good point, though I'm not sure wether if it would prejudicial, but you're the only one who can decide that Glad to help if anything! Have a great day and I hope to see more
I look forward to what shenanigans ensue with different types of seeds and 'seed packaging' and giving herbivorous animals different wants for those seeds and fruits and such
Did you take into account transpiration pull and cohesion and adhesion forces of water molecules when calculating the energy needed for vertical transport? Because of that the energy might be less and the transpiration happens in any case to cool the plant in a warm environment. Also the temperature sensitivity is basically due to enzymes and enzymes have an optimum temperature and will basically form a exponential curve around the optimum temperature. When the temperature gets to low or too high the protein/enzyme's nature changes so it cannot perform it's function anymore and basically cells stary dying.
When the world got too busy the plant life started adapting for all the other plant life around it, affecting the way it grew, does this mean if we control the environment enough, more specifically where the trees grow and how much life is around them and when, could we evolve trees in unique ways?
With so much data about all of the kinds of plants an their chances of survival given their current world status, imagine using machine learning to predict the chance of survival for any kind of plant depending on the current (and predicted) world status
Very interesting sim. I know its impossible to account for every natural phenom in a simulation.... Even though some try. My personal favorite things to add into parts of this would be. The fungus that connect trees in the soil. It acts as a syphen / distribution network. If there's a dead tree it takes nutrents + water from one and brings it to a more healthy tree. + Allows trees with an overabundance of water / energy to distribute that energy to others around it. The thing about this fungus is it doesn't interact with plants that arnt tree sized as far as I know. This specific adaptation allows large trees to sustain larger groves more efficiently. + Predation from animals. So much of the evolution on earth is directly related to animals+ plants in an arms race. I figure its basically impossible to implement this in any sort of complete way. However. Setting up 3 different predators for plants that have specific continually adapting factors might be possible. 1 to go after trees. They trim the tree tops. Giraffe essentially. Over a specific hight at first they can't hit.. but the longer the sim goes the higher they can trim. 1 for grasses ( where it actually helps the grass through fertilizer+ ) Look at the new wave of cattle ranch practices where cattle are moving through an area rather then simply eating all the grass in a given point. Then brush. Something like the goat. That eats almost anything but especially likes brush or midlvl plants. ( Plants eaten by this animal get a seed boosted in energy. )😅 1 for mid lvl / rocky plants. Give the plants a taste that the grass eater + tree eater doesn't like but. This third does.. Provides fertilizer, + seeds eaten by this specific animal get a boost for germination.. These changes together i expect would alter the simulation to be more aligned to what one would expect. A forest area. Savannah with a predominant base grass type plant.. + Brush types of plant in the dryer areas that aren't quite dessert..
Very interesting and detailed comment! I am actually working on getting plants and creatures to interact now! Currently looking at a digestion system that will allow seeds to be dispersed through animals and better energy exchanges depending on diet type! I think some of your other ideas are interesting too! Deffo want to have height play a role and fertilisation be a thing, which can also pave the way for fungi, but they are probably for a later update I think!
@EightLittleBears First great vid and that's for the response. The point with the specific fungi I am referring to is. mycorrhizae The reason I brought it up is that it doesn't act much like other fungi in the ecosystem. It specifically works with trees. So most of the issues working with other aspects of fungal life would be unneeded. The point of adding in this specific fugal effect is that it promotes groups of trees to form. If you don't want groves to form on the map. Probably not worth it. As to simulating animal plant interactions. 1 fruits, or the lure for animals to eat the seeds are an interesting byproduct here. / More energy is put into a seed then strictly nessary to lure animals to eat / transport the seeds. 2 seeds need to be produced quickly to be available for consumption. Hay grasses have quick up and germination times to allow for grazing animals to have a chance to eat them. So speed to seed and shorter growing size and time seems weighted here. 3 fertilizer. Eating seeds and giving them a bonus to germination.... Isn't the only use of excrement. It typically boosts soil health and minerals as well. How to model this though.... Smaller plants..... Usually use a bonus to growth after an area is disturbed. Quick ground cover. Larger ones come in later over time. + Tower over them. Fertilizer could give a boost to bounce back from predation. + Boost growth in a given area for a time. Not a lot but enough to break the math but enough to be boosted right after the animal moved through. I don't know how to account for better overtime soil quality. Usually that can't be directly attributed to animals anyway. As flooding, minerals, activity keeping herbivores moving all play a roll. Anyway these are ideas. Use as you see fit. You know your systems limitations much better then I do.
shouldn't freezing temperatures reduce ground water intake rather than making absorbption impossible? or are cold tiles basically just simulating arctic climates, where even groundwater can become inaccessible?
Two things I think could be interesting, but probably wouldn't change much (They are kind linked too): One, I feel like there should be a penalty for having too much above ground mass verses root mass, especially as a plant gets bigger. I don't think it should bother short plants much, but if a plant gets taller it should need more root mass to keep it from falling over. It's a bit of a balancing act though, as if it's too severe it will stop tall plants from forming. Two, I think that the amount of water in the ground should effect how hard it is for plants to grow their roots. My idea is that it costs plants more energy for plants to grow bigger roots in areas where there's less water because the soil is harder. It could also be linked for how long it takes a plant to grow, with slower speeds being effected by this penalty less. I think it would lead to more plant diversity based on environment, but at the same time I'm not sure if it would make much of a difference overall.
Both interesting ideas. To some extent, larger plants already require larger roots because, without them, they would struggle to collect enough water, but I haven’t thought about it from the “falling over” perspective. That might be even more interesting when large animals are added to the equation!
Longer lifespan means more time between reproductions, meaning less mutations per unit of time. In real life less specialized r-strategists are often the ones to first swoop in after a big dieoff, being faster to mutate to fill newly-open niches than the longer-lived K-strategists and becoming the ancestors of dominant taxa. Perhaps in a more dynamic environment, where conditions change and more factors are in play, meaning there's more adaptation to do, faster mutations will give an edge?
@@ozirmokion7358 that’s a great observation, and actually the desert specialists were in an area where temperature fluctuations were severe across seasons, so that is one piece of evidence which supports your theory!
Plants needs O2 at night, but that's already factored into Kleiber's law. However, if you were to add it into animal system, instead of O2 and plants as resources, you have to make plants = O2 providers, animal = CO2 provider, plant = animal food provider, animal = soil nutrients provider. Having 2 dynamic systems interaction is a total chaos which you can't say anything is right or wrong anymore. Perhaps, you might need to mutate tiles according to the result of 2 systems interactions, and suddenly, you have 3 systems interactions.
I think lifespan could be nerfed by disseases atacking the monospecies forests mainly (reason of one species of banana gone extinct relatively recently) and if the outside force start to effect effective lifespan of plants it should already make them to not opt so much on the stat but rather on other things
Amazing video as always! I am excited to see what adaptations develop when the plants evolve alongside creatures. I'm also excited for your shift in focus towards UA-cam content. Your videos are always educational, entertaining, and visually stunning.
Maybe this is overkill, but you could create 2 levels of underground water (in addition with the surface water, so a total of 3 levels) and only the plants with the biggest roots can access the deeper level? At the same time, maximum root depth should follow a ratio with respect to plant height, to allow trees to access the deepest waters and coexist with shrubs without competing to the death
Hi! Wonderful simulation, it could be very interesting to see what happens in case of a general increase (global warming) or decrease (ice age) of temperature during generations
The trees never evolve into anything but another tree. Kinda like real trees and animals, "according to thier kind". I know that may not have been your point of creating this simulation, but still worth a thought.
cud be interesting a factor for plants to need a specific amount of ligth, not just the most ligth, taller trees absorb more ligth for suporting more mass and the adjasent hexs can grow smaller plants how need less ligth is functionally a force divercity but is the way it works, shadow plants grow in-betwen taller trees
@@ethanjaycecantalejo3995 these are all things which are on the way, but what do you mean it is less time consuming to code? In my head they were more complex because (for example) pollination would also require a pollinator, which would require insects and so on down the rabbit hole 😄
Hey everyone! Don’t forget to join the Discord channel! It’s free! Link in the description! If you want to support the project financially, join the channel and get some fun perks!
This is the percent chance of a seed not germinating after 100 days
36.23720178604972098813098663067922123278%
Will this project ever be something thats playable?
@@joeburnover4110 yes eventually I am planning on making it playable.
@@EightLittleBears how much will it cost? Do you have any idea yet or unsure?
@@joeburnover4110 it’s not something I’ve thought about yet. We are still a long way from something that’s finished so cross that bridge when we come to it 😃
maybe with creatures in the simulation will change the plant behavior, longer lives would be less efficient because they would be eaten more
@@Karnivor-0us yeah it’s a good point. It might also be that getting to full maturity more quickly is more valuable with animals because plants could start to fruit and animals could help disperse the seeds, etc.
@@EightLittleBearstrampling by large animals, defenses against (specific) herbivores and the presence of nutrients as a result of dead animals and feces could lead to interesting effects too.
Not to mentions hurricane's tornados , ect
@@harrysarso I genuinely read “hurricanes and tomatoes” 😂
@@EightLittleBears 🤔 thats called seed dispersal i think ;p
Honestly, what I liked most was seeing the plants completely cover the colder edges, hibernate when the winter came, and then just keep going, flashing between green and brown.
@@samueltrusik3251 the interesting part about that which I forgot to mention in the video is that going brown actually indicates that the plant is struggling to remain hydrated (as opposed to explicit hibernation). The fact that extreme latitudes which have volatile seasons caused this to happen en masse and in unison wasn’t explicitly designed.. it is closer to (although not exactly) an emergent behaviour in the overall environment (I.e. I didn’t design hibernation, but the plants evolved it anyway).
@EightLittleBears That's really cool, it shows that it's the most efficient way, so it evolves independantly of other things, that's why it evolved in real life
the plants evolve longer lifespans (and size) because the additional time to mature isn't enough to dissuade them. Throw in periodic fires (idk maybe once every few decades) that have a probability to kill each plant in the tile, with a bias so that larger and older plants have a higher chance to burn. That should give you enough selection pressure against huge ancient trees.
you'll also want to implement fire resistant seeds
That’s an interesting concept!
Wrong. Smaller plants burn way faster the bigger ones. So if you add burns, trees will be even more favored. At least, if it is realistic simulation.
@@christian9540 What kind of fires are those if you don't mind me asking? My initial thought is that in this simulation, lightning strikes are the most common way to start a fire (except in hotter regions) and so, it makes sense that taller trees burn first since they have higher chance to be struck.
@cavallone009 you make a simple yet fatal mistake. A lightning strucks a single tree not every tree in the forest.
Trees have a big protective shell which smaller plants do not have. As such, they are a lot more resistent to fire. Some trees even only spread due to fire. Ask yourself, what is more easy to die: a goldfish or a whale? Trees are the whales or goliaths of the plants.
And if trees would burn, everything underneath would burn as well, especially with the fallin tree parts nuturing it.
Just google survivability of plants from wild fire. Even though natural wild fires are rare, most wildfires we have are causes by humans (about 9 of 10). If not severe, most trees survive wildfires.
And btw, natural combustions are almost non existent.
Dry areas may also burn a lot more, but they burn a lot faster too, as vegetation is spare. And after the fire the burned plants nuture following plants. In fact, after a fire an qarea is most fertile.
I love the simulation, but my favorite part is always your art! It really adds a lot of life to everything outside of pure numbers and calculations.
@@t-money2558 thanks! I’m not as good with the numbers as some of the other sim gurus so I try to keep it as visually engaging as I can 😃
The population never decreased probably because there were no chaotic factors like the real world. Natural disasters, animals, mutations in the plants, plant viruses, fungal parasites, erosion, droughts, etc could all cause plants to die off or severely decrease in population
It's likely going to be very difficult to simulate properly the biodiversity of rainforests without having to zoom in to focus on a specific location & then creating 3D renditions to accommodate the various plants at ground-level, in the canopy, & everywhere in between.
While trees in rainforest biomes are numerous, their general strategies for success are quite similar.
What's interesting is that the simulation chose to prioritize growth in the desert, but that might have something to do with their proximity to water. Something I've noticed is that while plant growth near water, particularly rivers & river mouths, isn't necessarily diverse, you will see a slight uptick diversity in trees, algae, & moss, specifically.
I don't know if there's proper research to back any of what I'm saying up, but I am a nature nerd who grew up on documentaries, so it's just some observations I've noticed.
@@MildlyOCD interesting points. I have been thinking about how to visualise the diversity of ground-level plants in rainforests but haven’t come up with a solution yet.. I’m sure one will come! It’s a good point about the similar strategies of trees in rainforests as well. That isn’t something I thought of!
@@EightLittleBears Maybe you could do some sort of parasite plants like vines that abuse taller plants for easier access resources like sunlight in dense areas.
It's always fun to see thatQ even at such simple and small scales, complex interactions and chaos can arise!
It'd be interesting to see how different types of seeds would effect the germination system?
Like smaller seeds get fewer chances to germinate, but more can be made, and they can travel farther.
While large nut-like seeds get more chances to germinate but can't travel as far, and the parent plant must use more resources to produce them!
Yeah I agree! Plus birds and stuff can carry the smaller seeds around so it can introduce some interesting interactions when animals come back into it!
I want to see more competition between the plants, maybe soil fertility that is drained to promote size, and fertility goes up from death? And perhaps seed dispersal distance vs time, maybe separate optional conditions for germination?
Thanks for the comment! And agreed these are all good ideas. The update I’m currently working on includes animals carrying seeds, so it’s a start on the dispersal point!
This is really cool! Do you have any plans of implementing this alongside your animal evolution algorithms?
@@jesperisborn9894 yep! They are built on the same core so the next stage(s) is probably going to be tying herbivore diets into the new plant system.
Just commenting for the algorithm and to wish you the best of luck on your future endeavors! Love your vids!
@@MattCaballes thanks! Glad you like them!
I heard someone say that comments don't affect the algorithm anymore, just watchtime and likes and subscriptions (and presumably super thanks and channel joins too). But I don't have any sources for that to back it up.
Ecologist here, awesome sim for starters, I'm doing something similar atm too! :) Something you may have fun looking into would be canopy cover/live crown ratio to add more constraints to each cell/tile for plant germination/growth over time. Long story short, forests have different subcategories or levels within their vertical structure such as the undercanopy, shrub layer, and so on. Bigger trees block out a ton of sunlight. We see this effect amplified in old growth forests where giant firs for example steal almost all available sunlight before it ever reaches the forest floor leaving a blanket of needles and some thin grass patches and nothing more. Sometimes there is moss or other really hardy plant life but my point is once a forest hits this stage its incredibly hard for new saplings to germinate in the shrub layer and grow to any real size unless they are "shade-tolerant" species like eastern hemlock or northern white cedar. So attaching a shade-tolerance value to your plant types, summing them all up for a given cell, and factoring that in may produce some nice old growth forests in suitable cells and help minimize over germination while being realistic. I could talk about the science here all day so I'll stop now. lol Keep making these, they are wonderful!!
On earth, Savannahs and Tallgrass Prairies are the second most diverse terrestrial ecosystems. So that your simulation has them as the most diverse actually makes a lot of sense.
12:56 Did you notice that you made a very nice metaphor for us humans at this point? Giants - that is, brilliant people with world-changing abilities - are less rare than you might think. But most of them can't develop to their full size (they, or rather their abilities, remain stuck in a half-grown or seed stage) and at some point they have to pass on their abilities to their children and hope that the next generation will manage to become the giants that they truly are.
Not sure if you already considered it, but it might be an interesting idea to make the temperature tolerance a variable too, with higher tolerances allowing for viability in a larger range of environments (or in more extreme seasons). Not sure what the tradeoff for this generalism should be, perhaps an overall lowered germination chance so they have better chances in varied environments (since other plants wouldn't be able to germinate half of the time at all), but worse chances in stable environments.
Yeah that is something I am considering but, like you say, the trade-off is the tricky part.. It will probably be something along the lines of specialists being generally better at everything as long as they are in their environment.
@@EightLittleBears My first idea is to make them more sensitive to overcrowding than specialists, both when trying to germinate and while growing. The only problem is that if they can't get a foothold early, they may not be able to at all.
My other idea is to separate the temperature tolerances for germination and growth and allowing them to mutate separately. If they drift apart, these plants can germinate during seasons beyond their tolerance then grow when conditions are more favorable. However, they'll probably need shorter sapling stages and lifespans to capitalize on this in environments where this difference is big enough. They also risk their two tolerances drifting too far apart, making them have less viable environments due to there not being enough change.
At least, that's my theory.
@@strcmdrbookwyrm great theory. I think separating the seed’s evolutionary story from the plant itself is particularly interesting and the code could probably be re-used for things like chrysalis stages in insects!
@@EightLittleBears What about plants with less enviromental diversity get an overall improvement on many stats, but the more adaptable the plant becomes, it gets a gradually lower bonus until it may become an actual hinderance.
@@Lallunalapruna123 yeah I think something like that would probably work!
I've been watching for a while now, and this is amazing to see how far its come and where its going! I can't wait to see how the creatures adapt to this!
Thanks so much for watching!
I know you're try not to make the simulation too complex, but there are a couple major things that you got wrong in your assumptions. First, capillary action; which all plants use to transfer water from roots to leaves. This is a completely passive function that requires no energy from the plants. Second, conifers or evergreens continue to absorb water even at below freezing temperatures, just at a slower rate. Deciduous plant are the only one the quit growing in the winter.
An interesting mutability would be “temperature resilience”. So that some plants could handle more variation from the ideal, maybe at some tradeoffs
Amazing video! I've always been fascinated with the thought of simulating evolutionary processes and it's really interesting to see how you implemented it.
Great work!
Another really strong video! This is one of my favorite projects being documented right now. Keep up the great work and can't wait to see how creature dynamics are bidirectionally influenced with plant dynamics.
Thanks for comment! Glad you enjoyed it!
I am curious how the build would be affected by different seed distribution methods. For example how some trees only spread seeds after a fire where nutrients the the plant life used get added back into the soil
@@zane_sadauskis I am hoping to get this kind of detail in there at some point!
This simulation perfectly demonstrates successional ecosystems, which start with smaller grass like organisms and generally morph into larger tree like organisms over time.
This is a great analogy for why alignment is so hard. In retrospect it’s easy to be hand wavy, or even totally understand what’s being a complicated process, but getting it right on the first shot is almost impossible. Getting dynamic complicated systems to do exactly what you want is really really hard
One problem, maybe already mentioned, is that plants also consume nutrients from soil, not just water. And diferent plants consume diferent nutrients, ergo crop rotation.
As someone with Atychiphobia, this is literally my perspective: 0:32
I loved the frustrated acorn when you started going overboard with describing how plants get energy. So cute
@@magnolia1253 haha I had fun making it
I feel like surface water should evaporate relative to temperature and elevation, also how "full" of water a tile can be should be based on neighbor tiles too, for example, if it rained a lot next to a river, it would top it up but realistically it's already very well hydrated as it's lost less, and can share less, but in a desert X rainfall on one tile would be spread amongst surrounding tiles quite quickly and also evaporate faster.
i just genuinely love these videos and i hope eventually your programs and programs like this can be used to fully show the development of terrestrial life on other planets from specific adaptations and unique evolutionary developments. like "spore" but rather than a human creating a random funny monstrosity its a ai system using already pre documented evolutionary adaptations mixed with potential x factor adaptations to create and simulate new creature. i also want these types of simulations to be implemented into games like rpg's where after a while if you aren't carefull either you will end up devastating an ecosystem due to over hunting/fishing/ resource gathering etc or there will be a species that adapts to better kill the player
Loved everything about this! The attention to detail is crazy.
One suggestion I'd have would be to allow greater effects of geographical isolation to produce more varying effects on adaptation. As an example, having high snowy mountain tiles at the very centre of the map could be a great addition. It'd be incredible to see more speciation and convergent evolution in these simulations and I look forward to what's to come!
This was very fun and interesting to watch.
Think you will find the "ecological succession" concept interesting. Also, plants contribute to environmental change. So, for example, we didn't start with a set environment for "rainforest" but the growth of forest is what brought even more rain and with that, more resources and variety. Latitude and altitude play a huge role in that too.
My memory is not fresh on this but thank you. Your video sparked my interest on this topic again 😁
Loving the new stuff and how much care you put into calculating each factor as thoroughly as you can reasonably expect. Very excited to see what's next!
Thanks so much! ❤️
Hello! Loved the video and this project! I am about to start a similar project for myself.
I think a few others already mentioned this in the comments but I believe an important reason your populations trended towards long lifetime was lack of disturbance regimes. Plant ecosystems are heavily influenced by disturbance regimes, which promotes a gradient of adaptations across two different general strategies: R-selected (short-lived, adaptable, fast reproductive cycles) or K-selected (long-lived, stable, long reproductive cycles). K-selected features are more common in stable areas (with very long time between disturbances, for exampe coastal temperate forests of the Pacific North West a.k.a. redwoods) vs R-selected being common in dynamic areas (for example, alders, willows, etc, in floodplains).
There is also a tremendous amount of diversity and trade-offs in different reproductive styles (wind vs animal polinated, wind vs animal dispersed, hypogeal vs epigeal seeds, etc etc). But I think adding in disturbance regimes would be the biggest first step if you wanted to refine the simulation.
I would consider how each disturbance regime affects certain organism types. For example: Low-severity but high frequency fire typically kills many smaller plant species (though most are adapted to regenerate vigorously) but only rarely kills larger, mature trees. High-severity, low frequency fire kills most of what it touches, but is typically patchy on the landscape (doesn't affect 100% of the forest). Windthrough hits most tall organisms in a relatively small patch. Insects typically kill only mature trees. You could have disturbance goverend by a few factors: (1) severity-mortality, (2) severity-size, (3) frequency, (4) what features it selects for (young, old, tall, etc).
Also, what software and language are you creating this in? For my project I am planning to learn Godot but I am curious what you used :) thanks for the awesome content!
That’s for the detailed comment! I am planning on adding disturbances at some point, and I like the breakdown you have summarised as low-sev/hig-freq and vice versa! I use Unity for the bulk of the development and I draw all the art on an iPad using an app called Procreate. I suspect Gadot would be fine as well but I like Unity as a product (even if its leadership has been “rocky” lol).
An amazing video and simulation. I cant wait to see what interactions with creatures does to both the plants and the creatures themselves!
Thanks! And I agree creatures and plants evolving together is gonna be wild!
Great Job,
Putting Taiga next to Desert is kinda strange
What you really need is Seasons!!! Its like a Hard Reset for small plants (winter) and just a smaller fall back for bigger plants ;)
When you add animals you could work with territory now since you can simulate amount of space on tile based on amount plants since its no longer linear. You could assign base amount of space on every tile and create system where more/taller plants mean more space.
I love these kinds of simulations, so glad I found your channel
soil quality should be added as a factor
Agreed!
Could be calculated by the amount of available biomass died on the tile over time
I think there are a few conditions you could change here to get results closer to the real world. Max height, max age, plus a kind of correlation between height and age, and finally a differing absorbency rate between different types of ground. Also for your map you would need to address that one of the key aspects of a rainforest is temperature, same with other biomes. Rainforest doesn't simply mean huge rainfall or there would be several in new york state where there are none instead, the other key aspects are the temperature and absorbency of the soil (for example new york state doesn't have rainforests because the soil layer is too thin after the ice age scraped it away so the rainwater doesn't retain well enough to support a rainforest)
Interesting - the simulation uses temperature and precipitation to determine biomes based on the Whittaker Biome System. But it doesn’t (yet) take into account things like soil quality which is something I’d like to tackle in the future! Thanks for the comment!
@@EightLittleBears no problem at all, i love these kinds of simulations and how they themselves evolve over time
I think this just became my favorite video of yours. Really cool deep dive on plants. Can't wait to see more!
Thanks! Glad you liked it!
Cannot wait for this guy to create an exact 1:1 simulation of life so I can watch myself sit at home unemployed in it while I sit at home unemployed
@@salswaga0627 haha - this comment made my day
A bit late, but I want to try and give my 2 cents about why lifespan increased so drastically despite the lower time to reproduce. I think it boild down to 2 factors:
1. Resources being too bountiful and
2. Inability to compete.
Point 1 refers to that fact that it doesn't seem like any resource other than space actually depletes. Water is infinite (although the amount differs based on the tile), CO2 never decreases, and soil quality/nutrients aren't a factor in this simulation. On the last idea, actually, I do think they should be included since, although the process of photosynthesis does lead to the creation of carbohydrates, it doesn't lead to ATP; there's one more process inbetween where molecules break and recombine where ATP is actually produced (I think 5-6 times more than in photosynthesis), and this cycle as it's called uses other nutrients that you can only obtain from the soil, like Magnesium or Nitrogen etc. Having a soil quality factor that slowly depletes over time as it's used but replenishes once dead plants "decompose" (could just be once they die) would inherently lead to a lot more diversity. You should look into succession for even more factors/how soil quality could be balanced!
Back on topic of infinite resources though, since there's nothing to compete for, there's very little competition between individuals, meaning that there's nothing to actually kill off the plants once the simulation more or less hits equilibrium. It's like humans in real life: we have so many easily accessible resources and medications now that there's little to no reason to compete, so our lifespans continue to increase.
Now onto Point 2. I might be wrong since you did mention you gave the plants ways to compete, but since you weren't very clear on what they were, I can only assume those ways to compete are root size and mass. The issue is, however, like I said above: there's no reason to compete over water because, as far as I can tell, there's no limit to it. The only actual resource they're competing for is space. And here is where things get interesting. Since, as far as I can tell, there's no way for plants to kill each other, that means that they are incapable of competing for space once that space is already occupied. Since being overfilled on a tile is damaging to ALL plants on that tile, they try to avoid it because there's no incentive. But if you are incapable of competing for space once that space is taken, how do you get the space?
Simple: you never let go of that space. By growing to live longer lives, the plants are effectively killing any and all other plants before they can even germinate by occupying the space for longer and longer. All a plant needs is 1 descendant that will keep passing down its genes, so the slow reproduction rate isn't an issue here. And I think those "random trees" are the culmination of this process: the seedling stage takes so long because you don't want other plants to take it once you die, and the adult stage is so short because you want the best chance for your seeds to take your space once you die. And then the cycle repeats itself.
There's 3 ways you could solve this issue:
1. Make more finite resources (like water, CO2, and soil quality/nutrients)
2. Add more ways for plants to compete (maybe some release chemicals that kills other plants around them, or they strangle and sap the nutrients from a different plant etc.)
3. Add more ways for plants to die or factors to worry about (like wind resistance, soil hardness/softness, rain and intense weather etc.)
The Sapling is a really in-depth evolution sim with very advanced plant evolution. Your simulation doesn't have to have all of these factors at once, of course, and I'd argue looking at only a few factors at a time can be even more interesting than 30 factors you can hardly keep track of at times, but if you want to see how others have dealth with plant evolution, this is the game I'd highly recommend!
@@ceawithac4095 wow thanks for the detailed comment! So, water is finite on the tiles but it replenishes (around 10% of total tile capacity) every turn. Bigger roots allow plants to take a bigger share of the available water every turn. That said, I think that, because so many of the plant became small and grew very slowly, the amount of water on tiles was easily enough to sustain them so it was sort of “infinite adjacent” lol.
Solar energy is also kind of limited in a different way. There is a max amount plants can get from a given tile based on their overground mass (and indirectly through other stats) but this doesn’t deplete at all. That said plants compete through height and overground mass because bigger/taller plants have better access to light in a congested environment.
Soil/nutrient quality and atmospheric effects are all things I want to look into! In terms of “more ways to die”, there should be some of this in the next update when animals come into the equation (and natural disasters at some point).
Also, I’ve not played the Sapling but I’ve been watching the videos for years and love them!
@@ceawithac4095 also please feel free to join the discord if you haven’t already 😀! Great place to foster these kinds of ideas!
Imagine if this was in a survival game and the world evolved around you. Why has no one done this yet?
@@Solitario9475 sounds like a great idea! I think there is something similar by another UA-cam dev called Germanunkol. Some very cool evolving monsters there!
Too much calculation and effort that goes into something that's not the primary gameplay loop. Additionally, probably a huge amount of backlog data needed to be kept to rationalise how the world has reached its current state. Newer players would have an increasingly massive data dump to deal with. On the gameplay design side, it would also be hard to design gameplay elements and mechanics around a world that keeps changing.
Sounds kinda like Spore that's why
@ No it doesn’t. The world doesn’t actively evolve like that. It has a bunch of made up monsters that spawn randomly. No actual evolution just a false sense of it. So my question still stands. Also you sound like you’ve never played spore so definitely go try it out but you’ll find I’m correct. You can even just look at videos and you’ll see the same creatures that ver and over except the ones the player actually develops.
@@matthewchinmingwei6721 There’s always a way to strip useless data since you don’t need to remember the old evolutions only the ones happening now, you can also simplify the evolution stats, you could have the game run off of a server instead of the players computer meaning you could have multiplayer as a main mechanic and you can dramatically slow the process down so it uses less power and has the world feel natural instead of rapidly changing every five minutes. It could be a game where you have to play on the same server/world over and over to see the effects.
I love this sm, evolution is always interesting just to watch but your va really adds a lot. I do wish there was a Key next to the map for the biomes, i quickly forget what means what but that might just be a me problem lol
@@aaronforpie thanks! I’ll bear the key in mind for next time 😃
2:00 is that 2 voices?
i think the joke is he was talking about a lot of “boring” stuff so he overlaid it and had the acorn animated looking all frustrated
Awesome video! I'm eager to see the others
great video, glad youtube recommended me it!
Glad to see you were recommended it! 😃
add forrest fires.
it resets curtain areas, killing old life. and increases local vertility.
not only is it acurate, but once you add co2 and o2 it can have a strong effect
I wonder if you could attach some of the values, like root mass and such, to the kinds of food that the plant counts as. So that there's additional tradeoffs to growing really big or such in that having a lot of giant leaves means that all the leaf-eaters really want to know where you live, or having giant root networks mean that the root eaters show up and start digging you up and so on. Or if being a small plant means that when plants get munched on, you get less likely to be nibbled on then bigger plants because... well, you're small.
Though I'm assuming eventually you're going to be adding things like poison, berries/fruit (and how they spread seeds around) or just having really big thorns to the simulation as well, which will also make the plant life and the herbivore life more exciting when they show up.
Also, can plants still get light energy during night time? If so, that seems a bit off.
Very interessting Video. You gained a new sub:).
I love EvoSims but have almost no knowledge of them.
I got a few questions about this sim tho.
What was the parameter that the plants evolved towards?
Were the plant categories pre selected (trees, shrubs etc)? Or were there any categories, it seemed like it was because of the Art.
Did the plants have to make a tradeoff while evolving?
And how did the plants procreate?
Brilliant video, it’s super impressive what you’ve done. One of the things I’ve always been fascinated by is the feedback loop between biology and environment. You’ve started out with some base geographies. How interested are you at allowing each tiles biome type change based on precipitation, elevation and the plants growing in it?
Thanks for the comment! I am quite interested in changing environments. The current geographies are calculated based on temp and precipitation (which by proxy is impacted by things like altitude and latitude), but they are only calculated once at the start. In the future I want to add things like plate tectonics and atmosphere which will cause the environment itself to evolve over time.
Im super excited for this project. I’ve wanted to do something like this for a long time and seeing what you’ve put together is pretty amazing, keep up the incredible work!
I'm glad this intro had a little bit of video at the end.
It sucks that you made them compete so much because it’s actually a myth that taller trees with more leaf coverage steal resources from ones they overshadow, but we learned recently that because the roots are all intermingled, the big ones share the excess they get with the little ones they ever shadow. Unless the plants are like weeds, they usually share resources via their root system, and they’ll share other information and help. I don’t remember all of it but look it up. It’s really cool
That is highly dependent on the plants in question. You say "Unless the plants are like weeds ...", but weeds are just plants that people don't want, so that term has no meaning in nature. Of course, plants we observe near each other in nature will have little to no competing between them, because, if they did, the least efficient of them would have died off already. Plants, like animals, adapt to fill certain niches in their environments. So, while this simulation might benefit from leaving a little more room for plants to find ways to function together, it is absolutely realistic for them to be competing for resources.
Hey - good content! Gonna support with a like and subscribe and let the algorithm do the rest aha
You also need to factor in seed germination type. For example some seeds are spread by wind, some by animals, some do not grow unless heated by a wild fire. There is some research on the walnut trees and how they will overproduce seed every couple years to ensure new trees and underproduce to cull the scavengers from eating all their seeds from the birth booms after a overproduce year.
wow very cool idea and format!
I am not sure why this was recommended by my algorithm, but I have been watching a lot of AI in the past week so it knew me. This was actually a really solid start at looking at plant evolution. I am an astrobiologist, so I theorize on what life might look like outside our planet and how it might form and evolve. To do this, I look at how life on earth did the same thing
I was thinking about creating a very similar tile-based simulation.
With sometimes lava coming up from under the ground and then these new mountains would emit water from under the ground as well later, and the different altitude would make the water flow.
Creating it for a game where you have to survive, figure out laws of this nature and taking advantage of them and such.
nice, new video on the simulation
@@Choompar glad you like them!
@@EightLittleBears quick question, do you remember me?
I do! Though I’ll admit I had to look back at what your comments were… sorry I only have a mediocre at best memory 😅. Natural disasters are still in the plan!
@@EightLittleBears nice, next add disease
found you just now, loved everything and good luck with stuff!
also, maybe consider a different approach to the member stuff
idk how much youtube takes from that, but something like ko-fi (not patreon because it seems they take way too much) could be better in a way that you get a higher %
again, idk the numbers but consider that!
the best for you!
@@sundown456brick thanks so much for the comment and the advice! I’ll check out ko-fi for sure. One thing I like about youtube is that it keeps everyone together and I thought that might be beneficial for live premieres etc.
@EightLittleBears That's a good point, though I'm not sure wether if it would prejudicial, but you're the only one who can decide that
Glad to help if anything! Have a great day and I hope to see more
Very cool Sim. Pls continue
I am amazed at the amount of genius that went into making this video.
I look forward to what shenanigans ensue with different types of seeds and 'seed packaging' and giving herbivorous animals different wants for those seeds and fruits and such
This is so cool! Can't wait to see it combined w the animal sims
ELBAndeanBearELBRiverHogELBDeerELBMandrillELBRabbit
Bro I want to code like that
Did you take into account transpiration pull and cohesion and adhesion forces of water molecules when calculating the energy needed for vertical transport? Because of that the energy might be less and the transpiration happens in any case to cool the plant in a warm environment.
Also the temperature sensitivity is basically due to enzymes and enzymes have an optimum temperature and will basically form a exponential curve around the optimum temperature. When the temperature gets to low or too high the protein/enzyme's nature changes so it cannot perform it's function anymore and basically cells stary dying.
This is really interesting. I didn’t take transpiration pull and cohesions/adhesion into account specifically. I will have to read up on this!
When the world got too busy the plant life started adapting for all the other plant life around it, affecting the way it grew, does this mean if we control the environment enough, more specifically where the trees grow and how much life is around them and when, could we evolve trees in unique ways?
i think you forgot that trees share water with their neighbors through their roots
some trees even work together to fight against illnesses
With so much data about all of the kinds of plants an their chances of survival given their current world status, imagine using machine learning to predict the chance of survival for any kind of plant depending on the current (and predicted) world status
That would be pretty crazy!
Very interesting sim.
I know its impossible to account for every natural phenom in a simulation.... Even though some try.
My personal favorite things to add into parts of this would be.
The fungus that connect trees in the soil. It acts as a syphen / distribution network. If there's a dead tree it takes nutrents + water from one and brings it to a more healthy tree.
+ Allows trees with an overabundance of water / energy to distribute that energy to others around it.
The thing about this fungus is it doesn't interact with plants that arnt tree sized as far as I know.
This specific adaptation allows large trees to sustain larger groves more efficiently.
+ Predation from animals.
So much of the evolution on earth is directly related to animals+ plants in an arms race.
I figure its basically impossible to implement this in any sort of complete way.
However.
Setting up 3 different predators for plants that have specific continually adapting factors might be possible.
1 to go after trees.
They trim the tree tops. Giraffe essentially.
Over a specific hight at first they can't hit.. but the longer the sim goes the higher they can trim.
1 for grasses ( where it actually helps the grass through fertilizer+ )
Look at the new wave of cattle ranch practices where cattle are moving through an area rather then simply eating all the grass in a given point.
Then brush.
Something like the goat. That eats almost anything but especially likes brush or midlvl plants.
( Plants eaten by this animal get a seed boosted in energy. )😅
1 for mid lvl / rocky plants.
Give the plants a taste that the grass eater + tree eater doesn't like but.
This third does..
Provides fertilizer, + seeds eaten by this specific animal get a boost for germination..
These changes together i expect would alter the simulation to be more aligned to what one would expect.
A forest area.
Savannah with a predominant base grass type plant..
+
Brush types of plant in the dryer areas that aren't quite dessert..
Very interesting and detailed comment! I am actually working on getting plants and creatures to interact now! Currently looking at a digestion system that will allow seeds to be dispersed through animals and better energy exchanges depending on diet type! I think some of your other ideas are interesting too! Deffo want to have height play a role and fertilisation be a thing, which can also pave the way for fungi, but they are probably for a later update I think!
@EightLittleBears
First great vid and that's for the response.
The point with the specific fungi I am referring to is.
mycorrhizae
The reason I brought it up is that it doesn't act much like other fungi in the ecosystem.
It specifically works with trees.
So most of the issues working with other aspects of fungal life would be unneeded.
The point of adding in this specific fugal effect is that it promotes groups of trees to form.
If you don't want groves to form on the map. Probably not worth it.
As to simulating animal plant interactions.
1 fruits, or the lure for animals to eat the seeds are an interesting byproduct here.
/
More energy is put into a seed then strictly nessary to lure animals to eat / transport the seeds.
2 seeds need to be produced quickly to be available for consumption.
Hay grasses have quick up and germination times to allow for grazing animals to have a chance to eat them.
So speed to seed and shorter growing size and time seems weighted here.
3 fertilizer.
Eating seeds and giving them a bonus to germination.... Isn't the only use of excrement. It typically boosts soil health and minerals as well.
How to model this though....
Smaller plants..... Usually use a bonus to growth after an area is disturbed. Quick ground cover.
Larger ones come in later over time. + Tower over them.
Fertilizer could give a boost to bounce back from predation. + Boost growth in a given area for a time.
Not a lot but enough to break the math but enough to be boosted right after the animal moved through.
I don't know how to account for better overtime soil quality.
Usually that can't be directly attributed to animals anyway. As flooding, minerals, activity keeping herbivores moving all play a roll.
Anyway these are ideas.
Use as you see fit.
You know your systems limitations much better then I do.
What language are you using?
@@catvamp100 c# (via the Unity engine)
There is offensive actions by plants, such as altering soil conditions, including making conditions better or worse for various bacteria, fungus, etc.
shouldn't freezing temperatures reduce ground water intake rather than making absorbption impossible? or are cold tiles basically just simulating arctic climates, where even groundwater can become inaccessible?
Two things I think could be interesting, but probably wouldn't change much (They are kind linked too):
One, I feel like there should be a penalty for having too much above ground mass verses root mass, especially as a plant gets bigger. I don't think it should bother short plants much, but if a plant gets taller it should need more root mass to keep it from falling over. It's a bit of a balancing act though, as if it's too severe it will stop tall plants from forming.
Two, I think that the amount of water in the ground should effect how hard it is for plants to grow their roots. My idea is that it costs plants more energy for plants to grow bigger roots in areas where there's less water because the soil is harder. It could also be linked for how long it takes a plant to grow, with slower speeds being effected by this penalty less. I think it would lead to more plant diversity based on environment, but at the same time I'm not sure if it would make much of a difference overall.
Both interesting ideas. To some extent, larger plants already require larger roots because, without them, they would struggle to collect enough water, but I haven’t thought about it from the “falling over” perspective. That might be even more interesting when large animals are added to the equation!
Mashing the plants and animals together and seeing how both impact each other (similar to reintroducing wolves to Yosemite) would be amazing.
Longer lifespan means more time between reproductions, meaning less mutations per unit of time. In real life less specialized r-strategists are often the ones to first swoop in after a big dieoff, being faster to mutate to fill newly-open niches than the longer-lived K-strategists and becoming the ancestors of dominant taxa. Perhaps in a more dynamic environment, where conditions change and more factors are in play, meaning there's more adaptation to do, faster mutations will give an edge?
@@ozirmokion7358 that’s a great observation, and actually the desert specialists were in an area where temperature fluctuations were severe across seasons, so that is one piece of evidence which supports your theory!
Maybe add a trait that determines the odds of mutation. Afaik certain organisms just mutate more than others.
Plants needs O2 at night, but that's already factored into Kleiber's law. However, if you were to add it into animal system, instead of O2 and plants as resources, you have to make plants = O2 providers, animal = CO2 provider, plant = animal food provider, animal = soil nutrients provider.
Having 2 dynamic systems interaction is a total chaos which you can't say anything is right or wrong anymore. Perhaps, you might need to mutate tiles according to the result of 2 systems interactions, and suddenly, you have 3 systems interactions.
Ha - this is the goal.. but yeah chaos…
I think lifespan could be nerfed by disseases atacking the monospecies forests mainly (reason of one species of banana gone extinct relatively recently) and if the outside force start to effect effective lifespan of plants it should already make them to not opt so much on the stat but rather on other things
Coding is one thing, but the visualisation skills shown here are what really impressed me, great work
@@matthewp4046 thanks!
Amazing video as always! I am excited to see what adaptations develop when the plants evolve alongside creatures.
I'm also excited for your shift in focus towards UA-cam content. Your videos are always educational, entertaining, and visually stunning.
@@Briscanator thanks so much!
Maybe this is overkill, but you could create 2 levels of underground water (in addition with the surface water, so a total of 3 levels) and only the plants with the biggest roots can access the deeper level?
At the same time, maximum root depth should follow a ratio with respect to plant height, to allow trees to access the deepest waters and coexist with shrubs without competing to the death
@@carlosroura7581 yeah I agree!
Ha I like your funny words magic man
Yesss! Do More of this!
Savanas are actually really diverse tho its mostly grasses
Yeah that’s a good point!
its really more of a visual representation of a mathematical solution converging. Unless you change the equation its gonna do that
Glad to see you back
@@Misto_deVito6009 good to be back! 😀
wait until he hears about the forest network
What is this? When I google it there are all sorts of things that come up!
the thumbnail art is actually goated if the arrow shape is by design
@@levidelaney5541 if you mean aligned with the golden ratio then it is indeed by design!
Hi! Wonderful simulation, it could be very interesting to see what happens in case of a general increase (global warming) or decrease (ice age) of temperature during generations
The trees never evolve into anything but another tree. Kinda like real trees and animals, "according to thier kind". I know that may not have been your point of creating this simulation, but still worth a thought.
Plant evo! Excited to see this alongside the animal evolution sim. You might want to do some sort of layering option so you can have rainforests
Amazing project I loved it
Perhaps Vines as choking plants could be a factor in Rainforest?
cud be interesting a factor for plants to need a specific amount of ligth, not just the most ligth, taller trees absorb more ligth for suporting more mass and the adjasent hexs can grow smaller plants how need less ligth is functionally a force divercity but is the way it works, shadow plants grow in-betwen taller trees
One time i would have made an multiplayer strategy game about tree growing and conquerre the most soil.
It would be interesting if the seeds could float to two or three tiles away to cross rivers or penetrate deep into mountain grasslands
The update I’m currently working on will allow seeds to be carried by animals
How do you even start learning stuff like this
Its less time consuming to code even flowering,soil nutrients, and pollination
@@ethanjaycecantalejo3995 these are all things which are on the way, but what do you mean it is less time consuming to code? In my head they were more complex because (for example) pollination would also require a pollinator, which would require insects and so on down the rabbit hole 😄
I think you should include the climate changing, ie water scarcity, glacial periods, terrain change due to earth quakes or volcanoes etc.
@@kennethquinnies6023 i am planning on adding stuff like that! A little ways in the future I think though!