The Jedi Are Terrible For Democracy ... Change My Mind
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- Опубліковано 15 бер 2021
- Were the Jedi actually guardians of democracy ?
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If we would have lived in Star Wars around the Clone Wars and seen a duel between Anakin and Dooku, we would have believed it was a Jedi fighting a Jedi.
Yeah, but chances are I would be on Dookus side or protesting the war on courascant. Because the grievances of the separatists were entirely valid.
It should be noted that there a lot of people who knew Dooku was a former Jedi, which was a big part of what soured their public image.
"Oh, look, that weird mystic cult is fighting amongst itself again."
"But I heard a Jedi mention Dooku was 'Sith'."
"Sith, huh? Must be some kind of cult sect thing. Weird."
That is probably the most you could expect. There is a great Legends story of Luke trying to explain to a New Republic official how Vader "turned to the Light at the end and killed the Emperor" and the official flat out telling him, to the rest of the galaxy, that makes no damn sense.
@@seprithlicastia463 whats so hard to understand about "I talked my abusive father into murdering his even more abusive boss"
@Frank Wharton-Hughes Exactly, if two sides are willing to go to war and murder each other over a set of ideals rather than just coexisting, both deserve to be wiped out.
The genius of palpatine’s plan was the Jedi would be stuck in a no win situation, if the Jedi did nothing, then they will lose their integrity, if they arrest palpatine then the Jedi would be branded as traitors
The sith order, or any practice of darkside cults/religions were banned in the republic far before palatine took power. This was largely due to the constant Jedi schisms over the course of history.
So if they could've proven Palpatine was in fact a sith lord, Palpatine would've been arrested?
@@jotheunissen9274 That would depend. If by law, then yes. Being a part of any dark side order, let alone being a sith is illigeal. (Under threat of death, exile, imprisonment, or, jedi "Reeducation.") However It's likely Palpitine had enough influence to worm his way out out of it.
@@whiskeyjade4076 Hence the "The senate will decide your fate" "I AM the senate!" and "He's too dangerous to be left alive"
Really? I do not remember that ever being stated outright. It would certainly explain some of the Jedi's actions. Where is it mentioned?
@@seprithlicastia463 In Legends there is a bill from 3956 BBY banning the sith religion according to wookipedia, called the anti-sith law. However, by the time of the clone wars, they had provisions that gave freedom of religion that would essential nullify that law. Either way, there isn't a satisfactory answer that I know of in either Legends of Cannon. However, there is a possibility there was some sort of ban on practising the dark side because when they burst into Palp's office to arrest him, they say he will be put on trial, which to me means that there is some sort of law against being a practitioner of the dark side. Considering I do not believe anyone knew he was playing both sides of the war (although I haven't actually watched episode 3 in a good few years now), I think it would be the only thing he could be arrested and put on trial for.
Ya know... when you brought up the whole self-policing part, you reminded me of the school system. Especially with how difficult it is to remove a bad teacher or principal.
Or a bully why do you think so many turn to school shootings
@@fusionmasterable It's not as many as you think, as it seems those who turn to a gun to solve the issue often point the barrel to themselves, having been bullied myself. I say that, with so many schools implementing a "zero tolerance" policy where both sides get in trouble, parents should encourage their children to go ham if it occurs and results in violence. They're going to get into trouble anyway regardless if they fight back, so, walk out of that scrap with the ability to say that you, the victim, dragged them through all seven circles of Hell and back in the process.
I think about qualified immunity
I always tell the kids that very thing. Dont rely on the teachers for help they are useless. Make sure you guys reward your kids when they shit kick a bully.
@@cerouluxray6394
I think zero tolerance is a terrible policy. It’s like telling the victim that he/she deserved what happened regardless of blame. It’s why the death penalty and solitary confinement do worse harm to prisoners in the US. We don’t treat prisoners like people, we essentially treat them as if they were boomerangs that just come right back.
I love Democracy, I love the Republic. The power you give me I will lay down
-Palpatine
A political promise is not legally binding - Joe Biden probably
And he didn;t.
What Mace Windu got wrong is that he didn't try to tell anyone else about Palpatine once he found out he was the Sith Lord, not even Yoda. He rushed in without even thinking about it, just like Geonosis. I mean, Anakin tells him about Palps and he doesn't analyze the situation. Look at the facts: They've been with Palpatine in the same place multiple times without sensing him for years, they know the clones were commissioned by Dooku, & the inhibitor chips exist. Mace said so himself in Ep III: "Darkness surrounds the Chancellor". So Mace knew how cunning & dangerous Palps was but didn't tell even his most trusted allies before he left, instead he left the whole damn Jedi Temple defenseless without letting even the Council know, there were so many things that could've gone wrong for him. Mace is a good Jedi, but my God he's incapable of planning things through or even carefully.
I wish accusing a politician of being a heretic was legitimate justification to attack them with a sword.
Haha nice one dude
This is probably worthy of consideration as a new federal law. So Say We All! 😂🤣😂
Remember that, in the Old Republic Era, the Chancellor of the Republic was usually a Jedi
Aren’t they restricted from “ruling” the galaxy? And isn’t being a chancellor sort of ruling over the republic, therefore the galaxy?
@@spookefy5847 Yeah. That restriction was imposed after the Ruusan Reform
@@OptimusMaximusNero ohhhhh makes much more sense. Have a good one man
I miss Legends...
@@robertnelson9599 Me too 🥺
Democracy opens the gates to tyranny, Socrates.
Democracy only leads to oligarchy
"Democracy is cringe" - Aristotle
Do try and remember: Socrates is only famous for being argumentative. If notoriously held few ideals of his own. His Socratic method just consisted of challenging others beliefs. It is easy to tell some-one they are wrong. Try and tell them how it should be done instead.
@@seprithlicastia463 Think, democracy 8s voting for chaming psichos
Not only what seprith li said, think about what time Socrates lived in. He watched an absolute democracy with no constitution suffer from corruption, commit atrocities against their allies and colonies, and inevitably get crushed under the siege of the Spartans. Athenian democracy was incredibly flawed, so obviously Greek philosophy would have a negative view of a government of the people
The Jedi enabled a bad system for fear of a worse system taking its place. In the words of Yoda himself "Fear is the path to the dark side … fear leads to anger … anger leads to hate … hate leads to suffering." - The Jedi should have allowed the Galactic Republic to fail long before Darth Sedious and the Sith took over - as their own teaching state.
They feared the Dark Side, were angry if a Sith existed to the point of being willing to murder, Hated anything the Dark Side taught - even if something was not too dissimilar to a Light Side teaching, so they created their own demise at the hands of the Dark Side and the suffering of the Galactic Citizens for decades to come. Brilliant ... Good job guys ... standing ovation.
The situations discussed here show very powerfully that the terms "legal" and "moral" aren't automatically synonymous.
Me: Sees title
Me: No no your right, the Senate is much better at democracy
I feel that this one is biased, yet agreeable.
He’s right
I am the senate
@@nanochad2979 "this is getting out of control, now there's two of them".
@I am The senate lies
The order itself is not democratic at all and enforces an ideological orthodoxy by suppressing any heresy
Yeah, and they do that by indoctrinating children in their order since infancy.
The Sith fail due to their members turning on each other. The Jedi fail due to their leaders falling to groupthink.
@@GearShotgun Neither systems work well.
@@dwnkaomwn3953 It's either them or somebody else.
@@flanholiothegreat8323 its actually really interesting how the Sith had more flaws but came up with traditions to counter them. While the jedi had less but ended up with more due to their later practices
Yes there were laws as old to prohibit a Sith being the Chancellor as Jedi's getting drafted by the Republic, but the Jedi should have somehow proved the Chancellor was being the Sith Lord before storming his office.
they thought they were running out of time to stop Palpatine, and they didn't anticipate how devious Palpatine was, remember that before the clone wars, the idea of a Sith Lord hiding in plain sight in a position of power was unthinkable to the Jedi, they were looking in the dark alleyways, when the Sith were actually walking the streets in broad daylight and giggled at the Jedi's failed attempts to find them
I don't think that they have forgotten the Sith. Remember,Roman empire,with most if the records destroyed is still taught today despite being *2000* years ago.
Now imagine an organisation that regularly burns through the galaxy every thousand years,and the records are well preserved.
If history is a subject in school, it definitely includes the various Sith wars.
It is impossible that so many species whose worlds have been devastated by the Sith have forgotten them.
to people outside the jedi/sith orders there was no difference between the two. just factions of jedi fighting each other is what most people knew of it as jedi was more the term for force user for most of the starwar universe
@Samuel Dimmock it was only every called the sith empire before the galactic republic and even then it's real name was the brotherhood of darkness. under sidious it's called the galactic empire , under snoke it the first order so again most people inside the universe have no idea what sith are as it's an ancient empire believed to have been wiped out before the rise of the galactic republic
Really, having two groups of superpowered cultists fighting at the top levels of any government is bad for any governmental system.
luke's jedi order in legends is the perfect order as he removed the jedi order from the republic and made the order neutral
Pretty much. The Jedi's original aim was to commune with the force. Luke's wisdom and Yodas reflections allowed him to see that being "guardians of the republic" was never their true purpose
That is not the perfect order. The Jedi are guardians of peace and justice.
@@emberfist8347 Not necessarily. In their purest form, the Jedi exist only to commune with the force. Joining the Republic and becoming its peacekeepers was never their true purpose, something Yoda and Obi-Wan admitted. Lukes order would still help others, intervene and act as mediators for conflicts but independent of the Republic and other governments which could drag them down in their politics
@@GearShotgun commune and provide balance, like any religion the way of the force isnt a tangible thing and therefore a matter of interpretation. Perhaps after communion a jedi saw that the force wills justice in the galaxy
@@Gol_D_Rog3r that's certainly possible. However, signing on with the Republic was one of the worst ways to go about it. The galactic senate only represented the elites, not the people, and the Jedi not only allowed countless injustices to go unanswered while serving it, but became mired in political and material matters, which distracted them from their real purpose of serving the force
Why do you think palpatine would accept being voted out lol
Because he is obviously a very good listener. He just got a bad rap some pr nightmare. He was very kind old fatherly figure that would surely have listened to the will of people. A complete pacifist.
It is the freedom of all democracies to abandon every ideal they hold sacred, to give up on everything protecting them, and embrace their own self-destruction. Remember, the Republic voted for Empire. For a "safe and secure" society.
I would like to point out that Palpatine was guilty of treason which is definitely an offence for which a person could be arrested.
yes now bring the evidence to the High Court, don't just try to kill the MoFo
Rebuttal: the arrest was made because the Jedi had several sources from within both sides of the war that all of it was orchestrated by a Sith Lord, and they had reason the believe Palpatine was that Sith Lord
Sorry Sheev, I get that, but they did try to kill you my man. That was dirty. Windu wanted you dead before he walked in your door. You had to do what you did. 🤷♂️ Besides, you did get elected legally, and there are impeachment proticals.
-Senator from Processing Hub 1
“Meatbags are just bad for democracy.. The inability to reach consensus or even true compromise is an insult to the term democracy”..
Jedi should not have become part of the Republic and just operate as independent organization
Yes if the Jedi didn't get involved in Galactic politics the galaxy would be a much better place
@@thorpeaaron1110 that and their stoic views on change
The fall of the Knights Templar is similar, although outstanding debt owed by the monarchy was a deciding factor.
"Oh, no. I am not brave enough for politics"
*Obi-Wan, Revenge of the Sith*
I love how I'm getting more well thought out discourse regarding democracy from an analysis of Star Wars than I can find on any mainstream news outlet.
I don't think democracy would scale up to a galactic size honestly. The republic should deal with big picture issues and facilitate dealings between systems.
They don't. But the Galactic Republic isn't a democracy, it is, like it's name says, a Republic. On the other hand Republics don't scale up to that size either. The maximum number of representatives you can have in a functioning legislative body before it becomes too large to get anything done is approximately 1500 individuals. As you can see in the Prequel Trilogy the Senate is far, FAR larger than that. Which is why the gridlock and endless committees take forever to get anything done.
@@joshuahogan3475 exactly
And much why when you look at the Federation by comparison, you see there's a "Federal" interest, but each "Member State" policies their own shit, only going to the Federation Council if they can't fix it themselves. Plus also the Federation, though powerful in the Milky Way Galaxy, is also much much smaller an entity. Even they end up with corruption in the end, such as Section 31 and it's antics.
@@seajaye9540 You COULD get the GR to function as a republic but you would need to tweak things. Give each planet a vot in a lower legislative body. This body would then elect member to a higher one with fewer members, something under the 1500 limit. The higher body does all the committee work, bill creation etc. Once a bill is ready it would be sent to the lower body for approval or denial, no debates, the assumption being debates were already done in the higher body and any input the representatives from the lower body had was sent through their representative in the upper body. Still clunky but MUCH better than the current GR system.
@Samuel Dimmock the difficulty with that is how would you ensure planets were grouped with like minded systems that have mutual cultural and political goals and ideals? Even in the US you can have vastly different beliefs, ideals, and goals from one side of a State to the other. (Also I believe something similar has already been done in SW. It was called the Empire.)
All that said, just about ANYTHING is beeter than the mess they had under the Old Republic! If it wasn't for the Jedi holding everything together it would all have fallen apart a LONG time ago!
I might be mistaken but isn't Palpatine a ginger? I could swear that the novel about Plageis described him as having red hair when he was young.
Correct
This would explain everything
So it's ok for Palpatine to try to kill all jedi because the act of four individuals?
Space hitler is good in fooling everyone, regardless how hideous his action are
The Jedi were committing crime by trying to assassinate the Chancellor in his office. Windu wouldn’t have gotten away with that. He got what he deserved
.
The Jedi were NOT Politicians . Just like the MILITARY not POLICE.
The Jedi were knights of a religious order, much like the Templars or Hospitallers. They also were warrior monks, which is a historical phenomenon within Buddhism, although the description does fit the aforementioned European knightly orders as well.
Sometimes they do act like a police
Who cares about democracy... let's talk about that segway tour in front of the capital. Do they still sell segways. Would segways have saved the Empire? Would Chewie get his own segway or would he have to copilot Han's segway?
Democracy AND segways
The Jedi were so dumb especially during season 6 of the clone wars
I wouldn't exactly use the term 'dumb'
More like nearsighted, too stubborn and focused on their century old believes to see that the world had changed and they didn't move along with it
Unfortunately Disney wrote them that way.
@@shadowstar1002 I could be wrong, but wasn't season 6 BEFORE Disney took over
Isn't that the reason why season 6 was only half a season?
@@jotheunissen9274 It was. showcasing the Jedi was already being done long before Disney took over.
Honestly, I feel any writing that involves the Jedi during the Clone Wars requires too much suspension of disbelief. I mean, outside of Legends books, they never even really looked into the inexplicable army of Clones given to them days before a civil war broke out. An army, by the way, they knew for a fact was given to them by Dooku. You know, they guy leading the enemy during that afore-mentioend civil war!
The Jedi and Sith adhere to dogmatic, single-minded ideologies that require them to be authoritarian zealots.
Well said man!
Sith less so, of the two. By the nature of their ideology, most SIth believe and operate under very different standards. To say nothing of time-frames. Old Republic Sith have little in-common with Rule of Two Sith and even Plagueis and Sidious were fundamentally different with how they interpreted what being a Sith means. Comparatively, on the whole, the Jedi remain mostly unchanged; more just whittling down to the simplest form.
You ever wonder if the Jedi never kicked out or shunned the first “sith” that experimented with the dark side that the sith would be a lot more civil and controlled and maybe not have internal struggles every second?
@@felixc.3444 well I mean, there are the grey jedi. The jedi sucked at understanding emotion, they constantly confused bottling up your emotions with facing them. Their constant insistance on not feeling emotions backfired and created many a frustrated and emotionaly immature younglings that turned to the 'darkside'.
Where are my grey sith at?
@@daanhunnik7691 great point and yeah I do like the grey Jedi, they break Jedi norms and being both light and dark to their will mostly for good. Though I don’t get what a grey sith would be, wouldn’t it just be a grey Jedi but extra steps or would it be a more extremist neutral
That’s actually a great way to think about it: as far as the Jedi could prove, Palpatine was just involved in a competing religious sect, and there was no evidence of treason, making their coup almost certainly illegal and self-serving. I like how this is the only channel that makes Star Wars cooler as a whole with each video.
- Democratically chosen
- Used legal emergency powers
- Hunted down a religious group
- Turned a republic into a fascist state
Sounds familiar, like some Austrian guy with a funny moustache
When that religious group funded transgender institutes, gay culture, banking manipulation, and a coup right after a great war, you for sure need to rid of them.
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 Based and redpilled
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 based and fuhrerpilled
Which is why Imperial officers wear Nazi uniforms.
Le bruh
"My allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
"That... is why you fail." - Yoda
Yoda realized sometime after Order 66 was carried out that the Jedi, who once put the will of the Force first before anything else, that the Jedi Order as a whole, had started serving the Republic and prioritizing political interests over the will of the Force.
it's really no surprise that Order 66 caught them off guard: had they continued putting the Force first, the Jedi would have seen it coming.
interesting fact about the word Jedi: it is a Hebrew name, and it's meaning is two fold "Beloved by/friend of GOD".
Can you give me a link kn where you got that name translation of Jedi?
Even if they have put their all into serving the force it would haven't mattered. The moment the clone wars began the Jedi were screwed.Demagoguery was used to sway public opinion against the Jedi like President Trump did
He says the Jedi were incompatible with the Republic and were terrible for democracy, yet the Republic survived with the Jedi being a part of them for 25,000 years; which is longer than any IRL republic in history. Governments NEVER last that long, the Jedi-Republic relationship must be doing something right.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting about what to have for dinner......
it's totally salmon for dinner
Please do more comparison seires the people need them
In Legends Mon Mothma (who was politically active in the pre-Empire Senate) told Luke that the New Jedi Order needed to abandon the monastic model and become everyday citizens holding regular jobs - as nurses, teachers, taxi drivers, security guards,, farmers, retail workers and so forth. The idea was that the Old Order had cut themselves off from the general public and made themselves an easy target for persecution and hatred.
Everything palpatine did was genius. He became elected by the people, recreated the military, gained control through emergency powers by the Senate voting it in. Then the Jedi come to have him killed. It really was treason.
yeah he lead them around like he had a leash around their necks. Right into the slaughterhouse.
Still kinda sketchy on how does 4 Jedi Masters attacking the supreme chancellor warrant the execution of ALL Jedi. I also like to think about how did Palpatine explain to the galactic senate how he survived the "assassination" attempt at his life by FOUR Jedi Masters being the frail old man that he is.
Not just the Jedi but all their friends, allies, and younglings. Including any senator or military officer that didn't go along with the regime change.
A sith is pretty much a Jedi gone bad (in a sense) . How can people in Star Wars not think a Jedi could turn bad and become a sith. That’s like saying a politician who’s been in office for over 47 years can’t be corrupted.
Love your videos. Do you have podcasts?
The worst mistake the Jedi ever made was pledging their loyalty to the Republic. Even thought the Jedi supported the values the Republic embody the fact is the Republic is still a government where political self-interest will rule many of its decisions. The Jedi were so determined to protect the Republic they never asked if the Republic was a government worth defending anymore. The fact is by the time of the Clone Wars corruption, cronyism, factionalism, crime, slavery, regional favoritism were major issues in the Republic.
The Republic was on its way to falling for centuries and the Jedi should have walked away and let it. The Jedi's loyalty should have been to the Force and the innocent people of the galaxy, not to any specific government. They were clinging to this ideal of the Republic that it blinded them to what the Republic had become. The Jedi should have been an independent organization that agreed to work with the Republic on common issues but not to serve it. The Jedi warn of attachment but in the end they were as attached to the Republic as Anakin was attached to Padme and like with Anakin their attachment brought about their fall.
By no means would I ever defend the Jedi, but it should be remembered that when Windu and company went to arrest the Chancellor of the Republic, they believed him to not only be a Sith Lord, but also the Sith Master to Dooku. That means, if true, Palpatine was either a rebel against the state or involved in a conspiracy against the Republic's interests. It was how they chose to pursue the arrest that was the problem. The Jedi, if they were what they claimed to be, should have valued the system and rule of law and presented their evidence to the Senate.
Yes the attempted arrest of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine by the Jedi (also are military leaders They are called Generals) would be like US Generals taking out the USA President in either Roosevelt/Truman in WW2 also known as a military coup
The irony of the notion that the Jedi and Republic are incompatible is that the if the Jedi had not been massacred in order 66, the Republic would have been able to survive. It's not coincidence that the Jedi had to fall in order for the Empire to rise
If the Republic somehow found out Palpatine was a Sith Lord I don't think they would allow him to stay as Chancellor, even though he was popular beforehand
Religious freedom is a thing.
I look at the Jedi Order's role in the Republic being like if Justice League or Green Lantern Corps agreed to work with and support the governments of the world.
“Democracy, I hate.”
I would say Jedi did remarkably good job of staying at the sidelines of politics, all things accounted.
Considering their powers, they could have easily dominated the government into true "force theocracy". Their philosophy precluded that, while Sith tended to forment autocracies wherever they went.
As for the Palpatine arrest, he was mastermind of war against his own government, a betrayal of the highest calibre.
It was entirely possible that had the Jedi gone thru the Senate to secure arrest warrant of Palpatine, that first, Palpatine supporters would have blocked the move, second he would be warned an able to flee (and/or institute the Order 66). Note that, their initial intention was to arrest Palpatine for Senate to try him, and only when belatedly Mace Windu realised the true extent of Dark Lord's powers he decided that summary execution is safest way of dealing with the problem.
As for the comparisons to US political system today, they better keep silent. Unless you want certain Sith's cultists armed with machineguns visit your abode....
The Jedi try Democracy, the Sith do not deal with inefficient Democracy and straight up become a Theocracy/Monarchy
The Jedi were the guardians of democracy.
I have no desire to try to change Allen's mind on this. Leaving Palpatine and his machinations to one side for the moment, Allen is right about the Jedi - no democratic society can be secure when it harbours within it a paramilitary religious organisation with vast 'peacekeeping' (so law enforcement plus a bit extra, and for some reason in the Republic, diplomatic authority) powers and essentially zero democratic or judicial oversight of its activities. They even receive state funding seemingly without having to account for what they spend that public money on. The only guarantee that the Jedi will not become a threat to the Republic's democracy or some kind of rogue secret police type organisation is this idea that the Jedi are inherently selfless and 'good'. The trouble is that 'goodness' is such a imprecise term with so many interpretations, and so a weak guarantee of basic rights and freedoms. Religious fundamentalists almost always see themselves as both altruistically selfless and morally upstanding no matter how horrific their actions become. Any atrocity can be justified in the mind of the fundamentalist if it is undertaken in pursuit of what they perceive as being an overwhelming moral imperative as their religion defines such concepts. In the case of the Jedi, if they came to believe that absolute Jedi rule and the subjugation of everyone to their belief system was the only way to enact the conveniently nebulous concept of the 'Will of the Force', then there is precious little to stop them doing exactly that, especially in the age before the emergence of the Clone Army. How many powers other than the Clones could have resisted a concerted Jedi bid to seize power in Coruscant? Many thousands of what amount to superpowered space wizard laser sword samurai would have been far more than security forces alone could have handled, and the Jedi take their recruits from their families as children in order to brain wash them into what should really be accurately called the Jedi cult, denying them even friendships and romances of meaningful nature as forbidden 'attachments', thus guaranteeing they have no emotional or social support network outside the Jedi cult authority structure itself - a ready made army of warriors raised to be fanatics primed to impose the will of the Jedi Council upon the general populous without hesitation.
A group like the Jedi would be a clear and present danger to any democratic society they are a part of, and it would be clear that democracy only exists in that society on their sufferance, a state of affairs that may as well be a countdown to a coup and the establishment of a theocratic Jedi government.
This right here ^^^
It all went downhill once the Je'daii fractured. Both sides talk about 'bringing balance' & studying 'all aspects' but they are both dogmatic zealots who close their minds to the full spectrum of the force.
Yeah, because the Sith are so much better. (Sarcasm).
@Prime Aggravator
>>Guys who spent 1000 years ploting in shadows how to enslave galxay are honest
@Prime Aggravator says who ?
@Prime Aggravator ye. Also how are Jedi dishonest ?
@Prime Aggravator I think I watched them.
@Prime Aggravator meaby, but they are still better than alternative. The cult and child indoctrynation part doesn't bother me (everyone does that), and those war crimes were commited against stupid robots. Also the reason why I think they were soo agresive during clone wars and why the were fighting in them to begin with, was becos the separatists were run by rouge jedi who could be also sith lord/aprientece to them. They were negotiators before, and if it wasn't for Doku they would either try yo deescalate the war or wouldn't take part in it in my opinion.
well, palpatine did hire people to assisnate queen amidala, an dlater hired people to assisanita senator amidida twice, so there is always that little issue.
I feel like removing a politician from office without trial is less heinous than executing people without trial. I get that we are examining the Jedi in a vacuum and that the Sith's wrong don't make them right, but I don't agree for a moment that Palpatine did "nothing wrong." Also, I have never heard anyone specify "how" Palpatine was controlling the Senate. If he was using blackmail or force mind control to do so, than the Jedi in my opinion would be entirely justified in taking him down, in my opinion. If he really was just a good politician, than it might be a different matter.
According to Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, being a Sith was, in fact, illegal in the Republic.
Well that was the whole point. The Sith was to out maneuver the Jedi while the Jedi haven't had any real emergencies or massive threats to handle.
Sidious did everything legally and sprung himself up in front of the Jedi, throwing them into a panic, unable to talk it out in council, and have the worse knee-jerk reaction ever; arrest the legally installed head of state.
hey Generation Tech I had a video idea/ question, what do you think Qui-Gon Jin would have been like as a General in the GAR and would the war have changed ?
love ya content keep it up my friend
The reason why the jedi tried to seize Palpatine was because he was a dictator who controlled both the senate and the courts, they were the ones who defended democracy while trying to arrest Palpatine.
Order 66 had nothing to do with the Jedi being good for the Republic or democratic or Palpatines love for the Republic it was all about UNLIMITED POWER.
The will of the force? In reality you never speak for the force it speaks for itself. The Jedi and Sith are not so different. I suddenly remember from and old holiday book I read.
Imagine what the Force will say,
The Force: “There are some on this earth and universe of yours… who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill-will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name, these so called “Men of the cloth” who are as strange to us and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us.”
Kreia know how bad the force is for the universe!
btw, lucas was inspired by ww2. in star wars. the rise of palpatine was similar to the rise of hitler. jedi were kind of like tibeten monks
Didn't the Jedi know that Palpatine was the Sith Lord in charge of the war and in control of the separatists?
Yay I'm so early! I love your channel so much. It's interesting ☺️
A lot of people say they believe in democracy.
Palpatine: I believe in democracy.
BAD EXAMPLE 🤣
That's understandable, Jedi weren't originally a member of the republic. They only joined the republic after the devastation caused by the Mandalorian on the Mandalorian wars(yes Knights of the Old republic and it's sequels are canonical). They were originally neutral and it was Revan and his Friend Malak who actually were the pioneers in cooperating with the republic, unfortunately this cost Malak his position among the Jedi.
Exiled he fell to the dark side, with Revan soon to follow. But because of this, the Jedi learned from their mistakes and joined the republic afterwars, and together they fough back the advance of the Sith empire.
That's not true, the Jedi were part of the Republic. They just didn't want to participate in the war.
@@ravanpee1325 No, the Jedi really weren't a part of the republic. They eventually joined the republic after the wars, but they really weren't a part of it
@@bloody4558"About five-thousand years before the Battle of Yavin,[81] the Order eventually came to be headquartered at Coruscant, wherein they built a Temple that would pose as their main hub for thousands of generations.[135] Underneath the structure lay buried an ancient Sith shrine, the inherent power of which was believed by the contemporary Jedi to have been neutralized and successfully capped. In truth, that power had seeped upward and outward since its entombment, infiltrating the hallways and rooms above, and weakening the Jedi Order for millennia without their knowledge.[81]
OldRepublicEmblem
The Jedi Knights protected the galaxy as the guardians of peace and justice since the time of the Old Republic.
It was during this time that the Jedi Order came into the service of what would be later called the Old Republic."
Malak died just in 3956 BBY
@@ravanpee1325 my dude, are you aware the Jedi Order was founded literal millenniums before the old republic? That is my point. The Jedi Order was never a part of the republic, it became a part of the republic later
@@bloody4558 Yes, of course. the Jedi Order was founded around 25000 BBY. But the Jedi Order joined the Republic and moved to Couruscant around 5000 BBY - one millenia before Darth Malaks death around 4000 BBY.
"The Coruscant Temple's origins date back to 5000 BBY when, after the Battle of Coruscant of the Great Hyperspace War, the Galactic Republic granted the Jedi land on Coruscant over the sacred spire, which contained a Force nexus. "
Yeah, except you have to remember that Windu knew that Palpatine was a very charismatic individual and he had spent a lifetime cultivating allies in all important positions of government and law, including enforcement and the judicial branches. If he was convicted, there would be lobbying groups out for his release, saying he did nothing wrong. There'd be guards and lawyers whom he had charmed at points in their careers and they owed him. And if he ever was able to speak in court in a fair hearing, he'd quickly charm not only the jury but likely the judge as well, since I'll remind you that there is no known way to get a Jedi or sith to not be able to use the force in canon. Yuuzon Vong stuff doesn't count.The only way to protect against that is to have a Jedi right there monitoring everyone's minds at once, and their mere presence will also help Palpatine's case.
There was no winning from a legal perspective, so he decided to kill him first, then get a blood sample and test that for midichlorians. If he killed Palpatine he could also then use his rank and rights to requisition the security features from Palpatine's office which reveals him not only hiding a lightsaber and engaging Windu in combat, but killing 4 Jedi Masters, unprovoked.
It's not perfect but there really were no good options in that case. And once he's dead, he can't work against the Jedi and they can build a case.
The guy at Geetsly's needs to watch this. Hes so into the republic and the jedi and "the good guys".
Because they were the good guys. No matter how you paint the picture about the Jedi not following "democracy", Palpatine was still the bad guy.
Even if the Jedi had tried to remove him from power legally, Palpatine could still execute order 66 at any given time during the process. He probably even had a plan to still turn the senate against the Jedi even if they had tried.
@Samuel Dimmock Yeah, cant find any way they could have removed him without it ending up the same way. May not have been the legal way but killing him was most likely their best shot.
Just to let you guys know there is a difference between a Democracy and a Republic. They are not the same government systems.
well since you bring it up allow me to discuss the times where a jedi was a supreme chancellor
the first time was after the Pius Dea crusades which pretty much reduced the galaxy to a smoldering wreck so jedi grand master Biel Ductavis becoming chancellor so the jedi could put the republic back together
and the second time was during the republic dark ages of the new sith wars where the jedi were basically the only thing holding the republic together at that point
In a free society nobody governs anybody and you get to do what you want to do ...
As long as you dont infringe others (and they dont infringe your fundamental rights) you are good to go.
Any mandate is evil (as it forces behavior on you that you dont want, and punishes you for not doing it) , any form of taxes is evil (as you are forced to pay them, and punished if you dont).
A proper society would use donations , freely given money instead of taxes (and if nobody is willing to donate, you know your society is not wealthy enough and struggling).
Anybody should make the choices that are best for them, and punishment for harming others should be swift, then the cost of crimes is so high that its not worth to commit them.
But like always, any system crumbles if people dont agree with it.
If someone abuses a system and gains power, they will at some point take control of the system, no matter what the system is, all can be abused and controlled, as pure violence and pressure will bend any opposition at some point, and its only because of humans are not immortal that times are guaranteed to change so far.
Ultimately no matter what your system of government is, as long as the people are wealthy and get all they need and the state doesnt bother them too much, people are fine with it ... can be a benevolent dictator or a sluggish senate wasting money, as long as there is enough wealth to keep people happy its all fine and dandy (or enough corruption).
The moment thats not the case anymore, rebellion starts and the system crumbles.
Allan, the problem didn't really begin until the Jedi started allowing non-humans into the Order. Always a mistake. Humanity first!
Well, the Jedi were a religious order and democracy and religion don't mix to me.
Yeah look what happened to the US
Can you cover canon New Separatist Union and Confederacy of Corporate Systems? Also maybe cover Legends Corporate Sector Authority
The Declaration of the New Order was a milestone for galactic society; the Empire was a positive good for the galaxy, sweeping away the deadlock and corruption of the Republic. It provided upward mobility for many of the galaxies poorest and most destitute through its academies and various development projects in the mid and outer rim.
Empire was also pretty corrupted but ok
@@flyer3154 Quite CNN. You're fake news.
@@theshackledgamer799 ok BBC
The Jedi tried to overthrow Palpatine because they thought he was going to establish an theocratic facist rule over the galaxy. Turns out that's exactly what he did. There's alot wrong with the Jedi system, but that dosen't make Palpatine a good guy
he was preparing for the Yuuzhan Vong, but yeah still not a "good" guy.
It's the Philosophy, isn't it?
Me too...
Well done as always. Cheers!
Suspiciously specific
Democracy is 2 Wolves and a Lamb deciding who gets to have who for lunch...
Totally agree. Being a sith lord wasn't a crime and the jedi had no legal authority to arrest the democratically-elected chancellor.
The Jedi, to me, are like Rome's Praetorian Guard in a way. There to serve a role of protection, but the temptation of meddling with little immediate oversight beyond the Emperor of Rome was little to stop them.
“I love Democracy.”
Why didn't they put bugs all over Palatine's office?
Again generation tech did it again! Looking at the nuances in between the lines and what the actions speak, compared with the gospel says of the Jedi order. Very thoughtful and insightful!
The mere fact that so many of the commenters are not happy with the Jedi for "snatching up babies" is something I'm willing to bet George Lucas wasn't expecting.
I agree with your assessment of the legality of removing an elected political official on the Jedi's own recognizance. However, I see this as a flawed writhing narrative. In the mythos of Star Wars just being a Sith is inherently evil and therefore illegal. I don't think these deeper issues are considered the point. I do think that this is an interesting situation for deeper thought on the whole Jedi/Sith concept within the Star Wars universe and how it would parallel real life.
What was your first clue?
The time of the jedi has passed
The galactic senate elected Palpatine, who in turn completely purged the senate of all Jedi control. So if you are asking who the Jedi were accountable to, it would be the galactic senate, which I'm assuming had the power to remove the Jedi counsel at any given time, if they were ever compelled to do so. The Jedi were accountable. They just seemed unaccountable because they were popular. But as the Clone Wars demonstrates, popularity can disappear pretty easily.
incorrect. It is not the Senate that decides the fate of a Jedi criminal, it is the Jedi Council that does. Also Jedi mind tricks might just make sure they stayed in power... I already think they were as bad as the Sith, so why wouldn't they trick someone into it?
@@seajaye9540 But the Jedi council's fate was decided by the senate, same as real life. IRL politicians can't control individual corrupt police, but they do ultimately decide how law enforcement is operated and funded. Even though it is usually more popular to support law enforcement, that doesn't mean they aren't capable of de-funding them, if need be.
Granted Jedi mind tricks can be manipulative, but I have yet to see them wave their hand and brainwash an entire planet. In that sense, standard populist rhetoric is way more effective at brainwashing entire federations. You don't need to be a space wizard to be a demagogue. All you need for that is charisma and conviction.
love ya
I won't bother changing your mind. The Jedi are NOT a Political party. They were suppose to ONLY be peace keepers that were thrust into Political and Military roles which allowed Palpatine to get away with his plan.
The Jedi should never have been brought into the fold of the Republic, and yet thanks to the Force they were also too powerful to not have checks and balances. Making them in every way a serious problem for the whole Star Wars galaxy. If they had remained apart from the Republic, would they have become, to many, an organization of religious zealots, and even terrorists? Or would they have ended up mostly staying out of galactic conflict entirely?
"jedi hand wave"... the Jedi are Great For Democracy
Yo what game was that w vader w no mask?