The so called Boer war was a disgraceful affair some 450000 British and commonwealth troops to subdue somewhere in the region of 85000 men who were virtually farmers with no standing army except for the state artillery of the then transvaal Republic I am of British descent and the women's memorial in Bloemfontein stands as a silent testimony of what those people endured in those two and a half years
You cannot excuse someone for murder because they were "following orders." I was a soldier and under no circumstances would I have killed innocent civilians no matter how high a ranking officer ordered me to do so. Morant should not be pardoned.
A man is fighting a Guerilla war where the first time the enemy is not in uniform , he is told that the policy as a result is to shoot guerrillas captured in the field ,he ignores the order and captures several kommandos of Guerilla leaders while other regiments wear black feathers in their hats as a proud declaration that they shoot all prisoners , his best friend is mutilated by guerrillas , morant captures the Guerilla involved carrying a part of Hunts uniform , gives him a drumhead court martial and the man is executed. Months later the men who ordered this policy towards guerrillas has Morant arrested , denies the order and has him ,and ONLY him and his fellow officers charged with murder , that's murder as in civilians not guys carrying knives , bombs , guns , dumdums and slaughtering prisoners themselves , he is not allowed to prepare a case , he is not allowed to call corroborating witnesses and he manages a 3-2 verdict asking for mercy but he is shot without chance of appeal or without informing his family or his government I am also a soldier , would I have done it ? I can't say but I wouldn't rush to judgement, but given the extraordinary brutality exercised by both sides in that war and the nebulous definition it produced of a civilian , and given the despicable haste with which so called justice was meted out , I wouldn't be too righteous
I agree Rhodie. The low ranking German officer that oversaw the shooting execution of 50 escaped prisoners in 1943 that were dramatised in the film 'The Great Escape' he was also only following orders. He was hanged as a war criminal. He was only following orders. If he was dealt with justice, then so was Morant. If Morant should be pardoned, so should that aforementioned German officer.
@@Bernie8330 If you are going to call Morant guilty for his actions in a guerrilla war , then every soldier on either side who committed the same crime should have been prosecuted under the same terms. The crime was not committed in a vacuum and it was established at the trail that shooting guerrillas who had surrendered was common practice , in fact , some Australian soldiers were reprimanded for bringing in prisoners - what became of these men and why weren't they branded as you now brand Morant ? The WW2 example I am not sure has much bearing , but imagine if there had been a dozen such atrocities and only one had been dealt with and the others ignored. If it was a criminal act to shoot guerrilla prisoners on the veldt , then it was a crime EVERY time , not just once
@@davidcampbell7334 Fine. They were all wrong to do it. I am talking purely in isolation of using the defence "We were just following orders". To offer sympathy here on such grounds, but deny the aforementioned German officer the same luxury is double standards, pure and simple.
The fact that Lord Kitchener ordered the immediate execution of Morant and Handcock , gives the rank suggestion that their executions were nothing but political expediency . Kitchener was one of the worst war criminal around , who sent 100s of 1000s of men to the deaths in WW1 , ordering them to attack heavily fortified positions and not caring if they lived or died
@@vladekuga7478 A common myth. He got the idea of the Concentration Camp, and scorched earth policy from Sherman during the American Civil War The concentration camps were also used in the Spanish American War.
@@vladekuga7478 No he didn't. They weren't death camps and he didn't instigate them either in South Africa or anywhere else. My grandmother whose father was British and was working for the British spent time in one of those camps. They were initiated in South Africa by Lord Roberts.
Morant never denied the killing but claimed it was not murder. His defence was 'I was obeying orders and doing nothing that was not normal practice' He claimed Command (especially Field Marshal Kitchener) were complicit by virtue of orders. He never produced those orders or showed any evidence to show they might ever have existed. Remember even if these orders had existed they would still have been illegal orders. Obeying an illegal order to shoot prisoners is murder. Obeying orders is not an defence. I can, if those orders existed, be used in mitigation. No such orders existed (or were shown to have existed) so he had to be executed. Remember the Boar war was not a war & the Prisoners were not PoWs, it was a counter insurgency operation in which the soldiers of Britain/Dominions were agents of the domestic political authority (ie the Crown) rounding up criminals not PoWs.
There were First Nations from Australia as requested by Lord Kitchener were taken too Africa to track the bore farmer's the most sad thing . because they were not white or Anglo Saxon,the Indigenous Australians They were never allowed to come back to Australia there home from the 2nd Anglo bore war .i hope some one read this and the British government should be held responsible for were abouts of These Indigenous Australians were used too track the South African Farmers. Were are there remains.What happened too ?? Why did Lord Kitchener denied them or allow these First Nations too Home Australia 🦘 how the good British created contraction Camps were thousands of bore farmers wifes and children died by the thousands, i love my country Australia ,iam Patriot, I only hope that we learn from Our history after the Execution of LT Morant and LT Hancock, as reminder to our Australian Army. that never again should our Army be led by British officers . even WW 1 . We still haven't learnt. we have own Australian Officers Command Australia Soldiers.we have proud Australian Military History,Over 130 years .
No. The reasoning would be because of a miscarriage of justice. The offences wouldn't meet the definition of a war crime - as this was nothing more than established practice by both sides in the conflict. Under the laws of war, crimes committed by one side tend to absolve reprisals made by the other. This added to the fact that he having alleged to issue the order, Gen Lord Kitchner, (the same person who signed the death warrants) - never took the stand. We have adequate grounds for pardon. For this reason, not only is Kitchener a COWARD. He is very likely a MURDERER too.
The title suggested the focus of this video was the push to pardon Morant. In fact, the title is "Push to Pardon Breaker Morant" - but that's not what the video is about. It would appear "ABC" in Australia might be as credibility-challenged as ABC in America. Also -- "civilians"? What civilians?
@Chook -My main point is that the title does not reflect what the video is about. That is not a "rant" about the MSM - merely an observation regarding something that is a plain as the nose on your face. As for whether the defendants were afforded procedural fairness, you say the video addressed that point well - so what did you take away from this?
@Chook - I'm truly fascinated by everything pertaining to this case - and as an American with no ties to either S. Africa or Australia (aside from being a rugby fan) it's relatively easy for me to remain objective regarding the evidence and the background to the events. (Or as the saying goes, I ain't got a dog in this fight.) Not wanting to beat a dead horse - I have to say it one more time though - I don't see this video as having anything to do with a "Push to pardon Breaker Morant" - it is a video about finding some neat stuff in the garbage. Stuff that appears to have once belonged to Morant, and later to Thomas who had a difficult life after the war. That's it. That's what the video's about. A brief mention that some people thought the trial was unfair doesn't mean the video was about the efforts to exonerate the defendants any more than a brief mention of poetry would justify calling the video "The Complete Works of Breaker Morant". Stuff was found in the trash. It was donated to a museum. The title should reflect that, not promise something it didn't deliver. That was my point. Why are we even still discussing this???
You cannot excuse someone for murder because they were "following orders." I was a soldier and under no circumstances would I have killed innocent civilians no matter how high a ranking officer ordered me to do so. Morant should not be pardoned.
Common soldiers seem to always take the blame for loyally fighting the pointless wars instigated by their corrupt governments.
The so called Boer war was a disgraceful affair some 450000 British and commonwealth troops to subdue somewhere in the region of 85000 men who were virtually farmers with no standing army except for the state artillery of the then transvaal Republic I am of British descent and the women's memorial in Bloemfontein stands as a silent testimony of what those people endured in those two and a half years
600 000: 60 000
Morant was British. He was born in Somerset and a first generation emigree to Aus.
Just stumbled on this rabbit hole.
I'm from the town it seems he was from
You cannot excuse someone for murder because they were "following orders." I was a soldier and under no circumstances would I have killed innocent civilians no matter how high a ranking officer ordered me to do so. Morant should not be pardoned.
A man is fighting a Guerilla war where the first time the enemy is not in uniform , he is told that the policy as a result is to shoot guerrillas captured in the field ,he ignores the order and captures several kommandos of Guerilla leaders while other regiments wear black feathers in their hats as a proud declaration that they shoot all prisoners , his best friend is mutilated by guerrillas , morant captures the Guerilla involved carrying a part of Hunts uniform , gives him a drumhead court martial and the man is executed. Months later the men who ordered this policy towards guerrillas has Morant arrested , denies the order and has him ,and ONLY him and his fellow officers charged with murder , that's murder as in civilians not guys carrying knives , bombs , guns , dumdums and slaughtering prisoners themselves , he is not allowed to prepare a case , he is not allowed to call corroborating witnesses and he manages a 3-2 verdict asking for mercy but he is shot without chance of appeal or without informing his family or his government
I am also a soldier , would I have done it ? I can't say but I wouldn't rush to judgement, but given the extraordinary brutality exercised by both sides in that war and the nebulous definition it produced of a civilian , and given the despicable haste with which so called justice was meted out , I wouldn't be too righteous
I agree Rhodie. The low ranking German officer that oversaw the shooting execution of 50 escaped prisoners in 1943 that were dramatised in the film 'The Great Escape' he was also only following orders. He was hanged as a war criminal. He was only following orders. If he was dealt with justice, then so was Morant. If Morant should be pardoned, so should that aforementioned German officer.
@@davidcampbell7334 Perhaps the court martial process was dodgy, flawed, corrupt and self serving, but see my reply to Rhodie above.
@@Bernie8330
If you are going to call Morant guilty for his actions in a guerrilla war , then every soldier on either side who committed the same crime should have been prosecuted under the same terms. The crime was not committed in a vacuum and it was established at the trail that shooting guerrillas who had surrendered was common practice , in fact , some Australian soldiers were reprimanded for bringing in prisoners - what became of these men and why weren't they branded as you now brand Morant ?
The WW2 example I am not sure has much bearing , but imagine if there had been a dozen such atrocities and only one had been dealt with and the others ignored.
If it was a criminal act to shoot guerrilla prisoners on the veldt , then it was a crime EVERY time , not just once
@@davidcampbell7334 Fine. They were all wrong to do it. I am talking purely in isolation of using the defence "We were just following orders". To offer sympathy here on such grounds, but deny the aforementioned German officer the same luxury is double standards, pure and simple.
only following orders is no defence when there is no record of that order
The fact that Lord Kitchener ordered the immediate execution of Morant and Handcock , gives the rank suggestion that their executions were nothing but political expediency . Kitchener was one of the worst war criminal around , who sent 100s of 1000s of men to the deaths in WW1 , ordering them to attack heavily fortified positions and not caring if they lived or died
Kitchener, the man who first thought up and instigated death camps.
@@vladekuga7478 concentration camps
@@vladekuga7478 A common myth. He got the idea of the Concentration Camp, and scorched earth policy from Sherman during the American Civil War The concentration camps were also used in the Spanish American War.
No he didn't. You might recollect that he drowned in June 1916. He didn't command men in the field.
@@vladekuga7478 No he didn't. They weren't death camps and he didn't instigate them either in South Africa or anywhere else. My grandmother whose father was British and was working for the British spent time in one of those camps. They were initiated in South Africa by Lord Roberts.
Morant never denied the killing but claimed it was not murder. His defence was 'I was obeying orders and doing nothing that was not normal practice'
He claimed Command (especially Field Marshal Kitchener) were complicit by virtue of orders. He never produced those orders or showed any evidence to show they might ever have existed. Remember even if these orders had existed they would still have been illegal orders. Obeying an illegal order to shoot prisoners is murder. Obeying orders is not an defence. I can, if those orders existed, be used in mitigation. No such orders existed (or were shown to have existed) so he had to be executed.
Remember the Boar war was not a war & the Prisoners were not PoWs, it was a counter insurgency operation in which the soldiers of Britain/Dominions were agents of the domestic political authority (ie the Crown) rounding up criminals not PoWs.
Even I'm an immigrant to the beautiful land, yet I feel so strongly that injustice done to breaker.
He was injustice himself. How dare you feel sorrow for a depraved being.
Major J F Thomas , what he went trough , if movie is accurate by shoving historical event , the Major JFT should be held as a hero !
There were First Nations from Australia as requested by Lord Kitchener were taken too Africa to track the bore farmer's the most sad thing . because they were not
white or Anglo Saxon,the Indigenous Australians They were never allowed to come back to Australia there home from the 2nd Anglo bore war .i hope some one read this and the British government should be held responsible for were abouts of These Indigenous Australians were used too track the South African Farmers. Were are there remains.What happened too ?? Why did Lord Kitchener denied them or allow these First Nations too Home Australia 🦘 how the good British created contraction Camps were thousands of bore farmers wifes and children died by the thousands, i love my country Australia ,iam Patriot, I only hope that we learn from Our history after the Execution of LT Morant and LT Hancock, as reminder to our Australian Army. that never again should our Army be led by British officers . even WW 1 .
We still haven't learnt. we have own Australian Officers Command Australia Soldiers.we have proud Australian Military History,Over 130 years .
Y’all In the habit of pardoning a opportunistic thief liar and murderers?
No. The reasoning would be because of a miscarriage of justice. The offences wouldn't meet the definition of a war crime - as this was nothing more than established practice by both sides in the conflict. Under the laws of war, crimes committed by one side tend to absolve reprisals made by the other. This added to the fact that he having alleged to issue the order, Gen Lord Kitchner, (the same person who signed the death warrants) - never took the stand. We have adequate grounds for pardon. For this reason, not only is Kitchener a COWARD. He is very likely a MURDERER too.
Lest we forget
The title suggested the focus of this video was the push to pardon Morant. In fact, the title is "Push to Pardon Breaker Morant" - but that's not what the video is about. It would appear "ABC" in Australia might be as credibility-challenged as ABC in America.
Also -- "civilians"? What civilians?
@Chook -My main point is that the title does not reflect what the video is about. That is not a "rant" about the MSM - merely an observation regarding something that is a plain as the nose on your face. As for whether the defendants were afforded procedural fairness, you say the video addressed that point well - so what did you take away from this?
@Chook - I'm truly fascinated by everything pertaining to this case - and as an American with no ties to either S. Africa or Australia (aside from being a rugby fan) it's relatively easy for me to remain objective regarding the evidence and the background to the events. (Or as the saying goes, I ain't got a dog in this fight.) Not wanting to beat a dead horse - I have to say it one more time though - I don't see this video as having anything to do with a "Push to pardon Breaker Morant" - it is a video about finding some neat stuff in the garbage. Stuff that appears to have once belonged to Morant, and later to Thomas who had a difficult life after the war. That's it. That's what the video's about. A brief mention that some people thought the trial was unfair doesn't mean the video was about the efforts to exonerate the defendants any more than a brief mention of poetry would justify calling the video "The Complete Works of Breaker Morant". Stuff was found in the trash. It was donated to a museum. The title should reflect that, not promise something it didn't deliver. That was my point. Why are we even still discussing this???
Gut wrenching
Pardon them all , as an Englishman im ashamed . As a retired serviceman im angry .
You cannot excuse someone for murder because they were "following orders." I was a soldier and under no circumstances would I have killed innocent civilians no matter how high a ranking officer ordered me to do so. Morant should not be pardoned.
But the point you are over looking is were they innocent civilians?
@@wespaul9345 The point you are overlooking is that they had the rights of prisoners of war captured in combat.
I'm probably naïve, even awful. These men get sent to do terrible things, then they do them and get criticised. I don't think it's fair.
@@wespaul9345 As long as the same applies to the junior German officer I keep harping on about. You're not naïve by the way.
Americans killed heaps of innocent civs in WW2 , Nam and the middle east