Venture is NOT a DPS
Вставка
- Опубліковано 18 тра 2024
- Blizzard has released the 40th hero in Overwatch, Venture, and the reception on the 3 day trial has been overtly positive.
They have great mobility, combos like doomfist, projectile damage, and... Ohh god... Ohh no... Blizzard you know you're doing this right? Blizzard please... Venture is a tank.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Streaming Overwatch Coaching Friday-Sunday 4-8pm BST
/ realth
/ discord
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
00:00 Intro
01:06 Venture Catchup
02:09 What actually is a Tank?
04:33 The Combo
05:55 What Actually Matters
06:33 Venture is a Tank
07:09 Why this is... Troubling
10:07 The Bedrock of the Issue
Hey guys, as I stated at the start of the video, this was filmed 3 hours after ventures release. In order to keep true to those thoughts, I restrained myself from adding the “well actually” addendums I usually do to preempt responses and guide the discussion.
I now regret that restraint because the responses I’ve received are very commonly down the same train of thought, so let’s talk about it to prevent me having to respond to everyone individually.
1. Dps doomfist
“Venture is like dps doomfist, how is that a problem?”
Dps doomfist existed in the lofty heights of 6v6, meaning that using bursty resources on doomfist implied that you weren’t using them on another initiator. Needless to say, the difference of going from 1-2 possible initiators in 6v6 is very different from going from 0-1 possible initiators in 5v5.
I very strongly think that if dps doomfist were released nowadays with a much stronger Zarya and dva to account for them not being able to be paired with a conduit for their resources, the combo would either be overpowered, or the combo would be fine, and the characters would therefore have to be individually weak when not paired with the combo.
2. Reaper, Mei, genji?
“Other “tank lite” characters exist, why is this a bigger problem?”
The entire discussion has centred around what “more” a hero can do when they are implied to be saved by a bubble or DM, as a bursty resource.
Venture has cleave, piercing damage, an incentive to get into melee range, and an escape which isn’t instant.
Mei is always a character who could’ve been reworked into a tank, but their pressure output is low, and I struggle to see how a Mei with a Zarya bubble does even slightly (maybe 1.2*) more than a Mei without one.
Genji pokes for healthbars and commits on low targets, the same as venture will do. But in terms of being DM’d or bubbled during their pressure cycle? They have no incentive to dash without securing a kill, no incentive to be in melee range without a kill possibility, and no escape which lets them get away from a dry dash. To say genji is similar because genji “dry dashing through the enemy team without getting a kill is similar to drill dash is a bit baffling to me. He puts out at most 1.2* the pressure of a genji without a bubble.
Reaper does get “more” from being bubbled, but his kit still has no cleave, piercing damage, no incentive to get up close beyond the 10m drop off. He does at most 1.3* the regular pressure when Zarya bubbled, as the bubble only allows him to stay in for longer and shoot at most 3 more shots. Reapers pressure very much increases with the deeper of an angle the character is on, and not with the ability to bury his guns in an enemy. Venture has touching contact melee damage which puts them at much more risk for eating cool-downs, and therefore getting much more out of additional support.
Okay the most important destination, clear and instant escape options. The existence of an instant escape means that a characters pressure has to be balanced around the guarantee of getting out. If you can escape instantly, the pressure you put out during your cycle should be lower. If you have a slow escape like venture, you get way more than the 200hp from the bubble. You get the assurance that you can do the pressure as deeply into the enemy team as you want, eat as many cool-downs as you want, cleave as many targets as possible, and still have your escape guaranteed.
You never bubbled a winston in double bubble for the health as a raw stat, you bubbled him because the knockback reduction and immunity to abilities allowed him to pressure deeper and father into the enemy team than he could without the bubble.
My estimation is that venture gets around 2* the pressure that they’d otherwise produce from their cool-down cycle when paired up and supported properly.
Multiplicatively more pressure, not additively more pressure.
I think your biggest flaw here is measuring the degree to which a character functions like an off-tank purely with how much they benefit from or rely on external resources Zarya bubble. Instead of considering her role in the game based on what resources she might taken when going in, why not consider her role when diving with a team comp built around that playstyle?
Venture just doesn’t seem to be a kinda hero that takes and holds space like a tank. So that leaves them to be more of a displacer like ball, but they have much less tankiness (300ish health with shields compared to like 800 or something for ball), and they have much less mobility. If venture gets focused like a ball they just die. But venture is better at securing kills, leading them to be more like a DPS
Holding space as a dps is the application of implied pressure. Widow can hold space by having a sightline, and the existence of the drill dash combo may be good enough that venture existing round a corner is enough pressure to hold space reasonably well.
I definitely agree on the distinction between lethality and survivability being most of the continuum between tanking and dps!
@@realth8572so then venture does fit more as a DPS?
@@BuffGenji I think the way venture does their pressure cycle, means that they interact with certain resources in a different way than other characters.
Having a bubble spare doesnt make you need to respect widows sightlines more than you already do.
Having a bubble spare is necessary for venture to safely pressure in the same way, they are a conduit for resources.
@@realth8572wouldn’t reaper and bastion kinda fit into the same category? Sometimes when playing with my friends they’d just double pocket our bastion and I’d just go on flanks as tank and we’d win lol
They might as well add a hybrid role
"What is a tank?"
[Sabaton has entered the chat.]
*PANZERCOMPF INTENSIFIES*
STEEL COMMANDERS
So me getting deleted by Venture as a Sup was not me being bad, at least not totally.
If you're caught by venture there is very little time to react before you die, especially when unaware. The combo does a ton of damage with a CC.
CC? dont supports have cc that can dictate who wins the team fight.
@@rockmunch yea
@@Accuaro I've been playing Venture since her official release. And at least to me, she is busted. She has a one shot combo which requires minimal mechanical skill. All the while having crazy mobility and immunity frames. And has innate tankiness with her passive.
Like I was once doing Defense on Gibralter, and I would just spawn camp in the building with a massive healpack leading to the enemy team losing the game. They couldn't ignore me or else I one shot their supports. They also couldn't address me solo as I dealt stupendous amounts of damage, and was able to even outplay an Orisa. The only way to deal with me is to hunt after me as a team, but then I just burrow away to waste more of their time.
Originally I thought it was just my skill issue as a support being constantly killed by Venture. But after playing her myself, yeah she is busted as fuck. Especially if you know how to play around health packs and burrow immunity frames. Whilst you are burrowed you are essentially denying space. As either enemies ignore you, and so you nuke their supports. Or they address you, but then you are closing off areas of the map, giving more leaway for your team. All of this without actually having to commit anything.
I did hear they nerfed her break point, so you couldn't one shot anymore. So we'll have to see how that changes things. But until the retail patch she was busted.
I agree they have a lotta potential but I feel their reliance on assistance to supplement low survivability is the issue as if their damage isn’t weighted to compensate then they’ll need tuning to still be worth it.
Maining them whatever happens tho we pierce the heavens in this house
I think the worst thing that could happen to their kit is for the burrow to get a faster animation at the expense of their damage and cooldown cycle being nerfed.
Its also probably the only way i see the Zarya combo being evened out, so i guess we'll see where they fall!
'low' survivability? They're invulnerable underground for a while, have air mobility when they pop up, so they can land on high ground or over a wall on some maps, and they have shields, and that drill mobility cooldown that currently can go through boops and boops, how is that low on survivability?
@@wesleyblack8302 big hitbox and highly punishable, close range heros HAVE to have mitigation fir this reason, same reason reaper has life steal and tracer has recall.
Personally I really like hero designs that sort of test the limits between boundaries in the roles. Yes this might lead to some balance issues, but i feel this is a necessary evil in order to keep new heroes feeling fresh and unique.
I do understand tho that this might lead to stricter comps with this hero, but I think the trade off is giving tank players the ability to "offtank" to an extent. Basically just allowing tanks to have a bit more variety in playstyle. Which can feel pretty lacking these days
so in other words bringing back 2 tanks? Why is that not just done by Brigitte
We dont need 2nd brigitte
I mean that's usually the case where some heroes have some abilities that overlap with other hero roles.
We don't need 2 tanks meta again, but the Big diff here it that this drilly is a off tank dbs, not off tank healer, so the combo and combat could atleast be faster, i think venture is more healthy for the game that ow 1 brigete
@@IamLuxisI think they should just make a new class, for off tanks specifically.
Wrecking ball, zarya, dva, venture , and doom.
I mean as a ressources conduit as you describe it venture works pretty simular as reaper from my point of view. Both are dependent on their healthbar to stay in the fight. Death blossom and bubble is still a thing afterall but it wouldnt consider it game breaking by any means. The main role of a tank is to create space which venture doesnt realy do. I feel like they shine when the enemys attention is elsewhere and its possible pick of vulnerable targets.
I considered adding an entire section for the reaper comparison. The instant escape of wraith really reduces the necessity of using burst resources to make sure their escape is guaranteed. I don’t think reaper is as capable of using resources like dm and bubble as well as venture is, time will tell, remember, this entire video was filmed 3 hours after their release so It really was hot off the presses!
Reaper doesn't really have burst damage without blossom though. He's got high consistent damage
There was an early meta when Overwatch 2 was first launched where players would use Zaria reaper and just keep bubbling the reaper.
Reaper has effectively been used as a main tank in the past.
@@cookieelement3467venture if anything is more of a tank than he is, they can quite literally take space very effectively and move ppl out of the way while being safe and doing tons of burt dmg, they play exactly like a doom/ball with less Hp they literally have the a similar shields mechanic all
Them lol, venture wants to be a dive tank so bad
@realth8572 So your definition of a tank hinges on their escape ability being 0.1-0.2 seconds slower than reaper? The more and more you are probed on the matter, the more and more you talk about, the more and more it falls apart.
what pisses me off the most about the switch to 5v5 is that one of the most significant factors behind the decision (aside from needing to slap a bandaid over tank queue times) was that double shield was really uninteresting, BUT THEN they went ahead and nerfed the fuck outta shields to the point where i don’t think running double shield would even be overpowered anymore, so it’s as if they made the change for no reason if they were going to make changes that would make double shield unviable anyway
It’s the classic, “we need to do this because design space is limited” meanwhile they are still forced to make changes which limit the design space even more whilst fixing the double shield heroes!
I just wish someone made public overwatch 1 servers, so we could play the game as it was and compare it.
I'm down for Bliz to lean more heavily in this direction.
Make more dps that enable the tanks to play the playstyle that they were designed for originally.
A dps who works alongside rein.
A dps who can fly to allies that works alongside dive tanks like ball/Winston.
Balance will be difficult, but if it can be done then that solves for a lot of our tank sadness right now
We already have those. Mei/Reaper, Lucio, Baptiste. All pair perfectly with Rein.
The problem is inflexible and dated design of Rein. Winston does not suffer as much as Rein, bcs he clearly was better designed.
I feel Venture leans closer into flanker/bruiser. Their entire kit revolves around finding openings and gathering armor to survive a bit more than a typical damage. Poke, disrupt with CC, secure kills and go away. I think Venture is definitely an interesting take on the flanker archetype. More interesting than annoying little shits like Tracer or Genji x)
Rain world music spotted :3
so happy someone else noticed
Comment section use they/them and not she/her challenge:level impossible
XD man people playing the craziest mental gymnastics right now. You right
Miner/Driller
ong it isnt that hard to use they/them unless they havent graduated elementary school
@@chryslerfooka2311 We just don't share the same beliefs but I still don't want to hate you guys and I prefer you say what you want and if you are happy with it I'm happy ! I'm just not gonna use words that go against my own beliefs
@@cime62 ah yes the belief to be a prick, my favourite. Nothing has to stop you from gendering a person correctly
HOLY SHIT THE OUTSKIRTS THREAT MUSIC CAUGHT ME OFF GUARD RAIN WORLD SPOTTED IN THE WILD LETS GO BABY :3
and shoreline, you are a blessed man :3
OH AND PASSAGE is it all Rain World music?
fuck yes it seems it is thank you
I am so glad rain world became popular
=)
@@Rikoshet53 SAME :3
Funnily enough i made a post in the forums asking if venture was a tank when they was released, and everyone said was a dps
What about Zarya Reaper? Isn't that in theory supposed to be a similar type of resource conduit on the dps role?
Reaper had no cleave, a linear damage profile which increases pressure based on angle within 10ish metres, no incentive to get closer than that, and his escape is instant.
When you have a guaranteed escape, the reward for allowing the pressure cycle with an escape is simply much much higher than can be had with reaper.
I think there is a 50 50 chance that what you said about off tanks enabling venture could be true. It 100% is just a free kill but it uses up a lot of buttons and in the world of exploding tank syndrome I dont know if the offtanks will be able to sacrifice there button for a single kill. Im sure there are situations where you would want to all in a character for that free kill but if the enabling tank doesn't have someone to take the pressure away while they expend their most valuable resource they may just die and ventures kill will even out.
I think if Zarya can’t spare a bubble to get a kill she’s in a pretty terrible state!
Oh, that might explain why I as a tank main immediately loved their kit
i mean in support we have a weird few tanks, brig, lifeweaver and lucio, in dps we have a few weird tanks with mei, and venture, echo on rare times, and ltos of other tank like things in the none tank rolls, they had to divie it up and its kinda sads
If it’s an issue they should just increase damage received by some small percent like 15 during burrow animation, which flavor wise makes sense.
Thank you. This confirms my suspicions. I felt Venture's kit was very much on the fence between tank and dps. Something should be adjusted to better align with either roll.
Personally, I'd like a damage reduction to the whole kit, with a compensation of a small reduction on cool downs, (although Idk if that actually solves anything).
I personally really love the design space of semi-tank dps characters. I'm just really really worried that they'll be able to combine with certain resources in such a way that blizzard wont be able to balance them in the world of 5v5, where resource donating tanks cant current exist alongside initiators.
I disagree, I think it's fine to have characters who walk the line between roles if they're balanced well enough. Having a bursty DPS with some minor shields & solid CC is welcome.
I haven’t played OW2, is there a 6v6 mode anymore ?
Nah
@@murilo4464 any good 6v6 community servers?
These style of videos are amazing, keep these up.
them and ball make up the secret fourth class, recon
3 rainworld fans on earth hearing rainworld music :O
filming this 3 hours after a character launches is wild. In any case, Venture's is a DPS purely because they're balanced around how they interact with the enemy. If you've never heard this take before it basically says that a role/class it described as something designed to interact with the game in a specific way. Supports are balanced around their interaction with their team and themselves, Tanks are balanced around interaction between the enemy and their team, and DPS are balanced around interaction between themselves and the enemy. Venture is geared towards interacting with the enemy team, what they do as a by product of doing so, from a design perspective, is a means to an end. Just becase Junker Queen does damage to achieve her sustainability doesn't make her a DPS, just because Lucio can boop (A move that can only interact with the enemy) doesn't make him a DPS, Mei having survivability and map control doesn't make them a tank, and genji having deflect doesn't make him a tank either. Venture isn't a tank just because they do tank things as a byproduct of trying to achieve their intended goal of securing kills. The fun part about an overwatch hero coming out is seeing how they come up with unique ways to influence their objective interaction goal
I think you’re framing the roles incorrectly. All roles are defined by their ways of projecting pressure, supporting other pressure, and reducing enemy pressure.
Some characters allow others to project their maximum pressure by giving them resources, some characters project pressure on sight lines, and some characters project pressure by cycling cool-downs into the enemy team to deny positioning.
All of the ways of playing the game are around space control and efficient use of resources to project the maximum pressure.
If the most efficient use of bursty resources in order to create the maximum localised cleaving pressure into the enemy position is to use venture as a conduit, venture is much closer to a tank than a dps.
@@realth8572 ok but wheres the part where she helps take the pressure off her team or reduces incoming damage in any way
@@stratego6639 where’s the part where ball and doomfist take pressure off their team or reduce incoming damage in any way? Sure doom can block, but just walk past him with that logic.
@@realth8572 I can see why you'd think Ventures space disruption, or cleave as you call it, is a tank aligned ability, but I think you're confusing causation and correlation. A tanks job is to Mitigate damage, they do this by manipluation the interactions possible between the enemy and their team, what I mean by this, if I wasn't clear, is that is a Rein steps in between me and soldier they're manipulation and limiting the interaction possible between the soldier and me. All playstyles might be built around maximizing pressure, but playstyles and roles are different in that a role is an intended function, and a playstyle is how you go about utilizing your kit. Roles are built around intended interactions, Tanks mitigate damage, and in overwatch 1 the most common way to do that was to take the most space. Having more space gives your team access to more cover around the map, limits the angles the enemies can take etc. etc...
If roles were defined by their abilities then Lucio, Brig, Ball, D. VA, Ashe, & Bastion would all need to be in the same category due the fact they all have boops and thus apply pressure the same way. I don't need to tell you that they aren't all the same class, but have you thought about why? Because the culmination of their nuances lend themselves to an optimal playstyle. If your idea of what makes each role what were true we'd of had this conversation back in overwatch 1 about Lucio and how he cleaves through space as well.
Whereas I don't entirely agree with your Tank design breakdown (I subscribe to 4 types, rather than 3), fully on board with recognizing the issue with resource-donating Tanks into heavy Initiation. Not sure I agree with Venture being a Tank, because the same issue also exists with Dva/Zarya donating resources to DPS characters like Reaper/Mei/Bastion (and even Junkrat, to an extent), who all have a similar level of heavy initiation + massive damage potential that Venture does, that players can maximize with those donations.
Venture, imo, just does what every hero in their respective Role does, in OW2: They do it better than any OW1 hero ever did.
Which is absolutely a design issue. I am going to go out on a limb and say, I think Zarya is going to be the problem combo later, over Dva (though it might start with Dva), given how much safer Bubble is (cleanse + closed invul + CC + longer range application) and Zarya's overall DMG output as well (especially after her recent beam buffs). They're just a better Zarya + Reaper, comp. Grav + Tectonic seems like a good Ult combo too. Plus, with Venture in the game, that's a full comp. you can run with 5 separate Invul. abilities (Reaper, Venture, Zarya, Kiri/LW, Bap), each of which helps the others in the comp get back to their Invul. mechanics + multi-cleanse.
Great video across the board. Big respect for design theory predictions, always a lot of fun to see them applied and how it turns out eventually!
I considered adding a entire 5 min segment parsing out the different "Tank lite" characters in the dps category, but thought I'd stay true to the original recording taken on the day of release.
The short form of that unwritten script is that the deeper the cooldown investment to do your pressure cycle, the more incentive the character has to get up close, and the less reliable their escape is, the more bursty support the character needs in order to do their pressure cycle.
Weirdly, looking back on the script, the most tank like feature of ventures kit really is the windup on burrow, making the pressure cycle a big risk/reward thing that you're incentivised to chuck extra resources into.
Thanks for your time and your kind words!
@@realth8572 All the more reason I think Zarya's probably the better option in the long term.
Bubble's all encompassing protection includes a lot of CC + Damage types that D.matrix will miss, and can be applied at a safer range for the Zarya.
Burrow's much more of a sure escape with a Zarya bubble that also doesn't put the Zarya at as much risk.
Still, I see what you were going for with the "Tank Light" comparison and it does make a lot sense in that perspective.
Looking forward to more from you mate!
as someone who plyed OW1 over most of iuts lifetime and just started playing ow2, i really miss 2 tanks man
Love the Wintergatan music
I think that the issue with Venture being ineffective without an off-tank like Zarya or DVa is going to be similar to the issues in 6v6, where poke tanks didn’t need to have both an off and a main tank to get the same value as main and off tanks did when played together. For instance, Reinhardt and Zarya needed to time a speed boost, a bubble, and a swing so you wouldn’t get hooked or rocked, but Sigma and Roadhog could just sit back and hold M1 to get the same value. I feel like the way Blizzard is going to balance Venture is by making it require teamwork in order to achieve the same value as a Tracer that doesn’t need a bubble or Defense Matrix to apply pressure. This would effectively make the character useless in ranked play because of how unreliable it is to get a tank that wants to play Zarya or DVa (kind of like trying to play Reinhardt or Winston in Overwatch 1).
Blizzard will steal breast milk before it admits it made a bad decision.
- breast milk theft ability has had its cooldown reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds
the rain world music slaps
And here we are, not even a month later, with big Venture nerfs because they were a terror in everything below masters.
Character can still do their nonsense, but now the combos require at least an extra shot to get off and are much less consistent. So now Venture will be even more mid in uncoordinated play and that much more reliant on perfectly using a bubble or needing the entirety of DM’s duration to do their thing against anyone who can aim and has a reaction time.
The problem is not the damage the character does the problem is how easy it is to land. The characters bullets are too easy to land. The damage nerfs will do nothing when the ability's are so easy to land
RAIN WORLD OST
❤️
2:32 Rain World OST?? BASED???
anybody got the full tracklist?
Im not sure how having scary damage makes you a tank?
Being able to put out constant high damage in close range creates pressure that allows your team to take space. Translation: "There is a scary lady with a drill approaching, I'd better run away or I'll die instantly."
@@PlatinumAltaria so is why they moved Doom to the tank category and they took Mei's freeze away or something? Idk, I feel like a character having a burst combo doesn't make them a tank. Tracer can one clip a lot of targets, Sombra can virus combo, and Junkrat used to be able to combo. Idk it just doesn't feel like burst dmg and escape makes them tanky.
Time to dust off Zarya, then. Rein and Zarya were the two tanks I played back in the days. Even if the prediction isn't quite on the money, Venture will be all over in first month of play I reckon. Dealing with a Venture that gets bubbled on cooldown can't be easy, similar to how Zarya was only really played in the world cup to enable a Genji (+ their burrowed phase kinda do work well with the idea of Zarya having some downtime on the bubbles, so should be good still).
Venture lands in kind of that dps category of long recovery high momentary pressure and is based around comboing to prolong that pressure.
It's the exact same idea as genji, except instead of a dash reset, you're given temporary health for pressing buttons.
In that way it functions way better than genji, since venture doesn't need kills to guarantee rewards.
Also very clearly venture is meant to be more self relient go in and get out type of deal like for example junkrat, you don't necessarily need to funnel resources into them besides topping up with heals, which would happen with any dps anyways. Kind of works on the philosophy of making it too expensive resource wise to hunt you down.
Venture with a Zarya bubble does almost double the guaranteed pressure on the enemy than without a Zarya bubble, because the implied safety that Zarya bubble gives them increases how deep and far into the enemy team they can go and how many cooldowns and abilities they can safely eat and still escape
Sure, venture will also poke for healthbars and confirm for a dash, but genji’s survivability cool-downs are much more consistent and rely on dash reset for safety.
@@realth8572 Ye, hence why i brought up junkrat, the kit is pretty flexible because of said temporary health gain, allows for poking, going deep and getting out. Will be interesting to see how they will be used on a high level
Anyone else subscribe the moment they notice Rain World OST?
Venture is just dps doomfist.
Yeah very similar, but if dps doom fist we’re released into play nowadays, you’d had Zarya and dva’s lining up to use them as an initiator!
It honestly wouldn't surprise. Doom gets shutdown by CC, like orisa's javelin. Having a Zarya to prevent that would be a really strong combo if he were a dps in the current 5v5 format.
Not the chroma key clipping!
Venture is like another doomfist. They clicked instantly for me and the movement feels SO GOOD.
As a former off tank player I was wondering why venture felt so intuitive
Nice rainworld music good touch for bgm
I need an explanation in caveman terms
tell me you love rain world without telling me you love rain world:
just add they or idk how to call correctly venture, add i-frames and remove shields
This is like saying mei is a tank.
Except mei can't inflict the same pressure
The only things that makes Venture ‘tank-like’ is the cc and that they’re close range. They are a damage hero through and through.
Tank is defined differently in OW2 than in OW1. OW2 tanks mitigate damage for their team. Venture doesn’t do this at all. Venture’s only means of mitigating/preventing damage is to burrow themself into the ground, and that only helps them. The reaper comparison exists for a reason. Close range high damage dps with the ability to be punished easily when not carefully managing cooldowns.
There’s also a reason people compare Venture to dps-doom.
Off-Tanks don’t exist anymore, and some damage characters have always been able to do the things that off tanks could (think Mei’s freeze and now slow, or pharah’s concussive blast, or even soldiers helix rocket.
I watched the video through and I’ve got to say, and I don’t mean this to be rude, this is the opposite of cooking
Stating that tanks role is to mitigate damage is a self report of the highest level boss.
Tanks role is the same every other role. Control space by projecting damage pressure over that space, implied or otherwise. Many of them do this through pressure cycles at which they can do increased pressure at melee range for a short time whilst burning resources in order to move enemies from these areas.
@@realth8572 you have to do both, mitigate and control/apply pressure. Just how supports defining trait is the ability to consistently provide healing to teammates, tanks defining trait is to consistently mitigate damage.
Venture can do damage and push people around/control space sure, but so can Pharah, so can Junkrat, so can Mei, so can Widow, etc. venture is missing the defining trait of tank, damage mitigation
Edit: as for the Dva or Zarya synergies, I don’t think it’ll be that bad. Zarya synergy might be annoying but Dva’s defense matrix has a few easy counters, namely the games most annoying character (sombra)
RAIN WORLD MUSIC USED!!!!
Maybe OW team will rework some dps chars to "mini-tank", maybe Reaper will be the first one?
Not gonna lie the explosions from Ventures primary fire look like it came straight from Jujutsu Kaisen lol.
Someone really needs to address the mobility creep on its own. Like no character can come out with SOME mobility anymore. I miss when the strongest damage and healing sources actually had to commit to any position to counterbalance their teamfight potency. Now we get Soj/Bap/Weaver/Kiri and Illari who is just Mccree without Fan but with amazing sustain and of course, MOBILITY. To make matters worse alot of the new mobility is both horizontal AND vertIcal. Like remember when Pharah and Rat being both vertical and horizontal was one of their unique strengths despite almost never being meta? Now its just more power on the creep dogpile.
I'm an off-tank main, I think Venture definitely has a similar playstyle to an off-tank with slightly lower surivivability.
absolutely agree
I feel saying that Venture is a tank is like saying that Doomfist was a tank, in OW1. The ability to dive in on the enemy team with AOE damage and temporary shields while wanting to engage in the enemy at closer ranges? Sounds familiar to me, but I don't see them able to hold space like a "tank", I saw their kit as closer to Reaper, with an engage and an escape tool, there isn't enough damage mitigation to get in and stay. Sure, if you cram the resources of both supports and the tank into them, they could maybe hold space but could you also do that with Genji, or Reaper, or Mei even (still do think they could rework her into a tank, she feels closer to one than Venture). Burrow is completely self reliant as not even Mercy can continue to support Venture while underground, no amount of tank resources will make that better until they emerge. While I can see the idea of Developers trying to tune a dps hero to 5v5, like their tanks and supports, I don't think it's going to be a horribly bad thing.
There’s not a single dive tank which “holds space” every single one controls space by threatening to enter it with a cleaving pressure cycle.
I think I’m gonna sticky a reaper addendum because so many people are using this analogy which doesn’t work in nearly the way they think it’s working.
@realth8572 alright, you say cleave, I say AOE, again that does bring to mind old Doomfist. But when converted to a tank, they did have to change him to have mitigation as well. I also am not fully sure I'd say D.Va has "cleaving pressure", unless you are saying she is not a dive tank. I can see some parallels between burrow and piledriver, but still not fully convinced those make them a tank.
Great video!
Wait so therefor genii is a tank given your reasoning
if we're not gonna have 6v6 back, isn't this what we need to have the vibes of "old Overwatch" back? removing a 2nd tank means the people the tank should be working with on the front-line should now be the DPS, just like this. it's not like there aren't DPS heroes already that benefit from being protected by bubble and matrix, and plenty of DPS characters have the movement and high damage to initiate fights and get picks.
people have been clamouring for the teamwork and synergy of 2 tanks to come back, and now that it's in the form of a DPS character... it's a bad thing? i don't really follow. sure DM and bubble are buffed from 6v6, but usually they protected tanks that had survivability tools of their own, which Venture doesn't really have much of, with the possibility that a bunch of it needs to be used for damage instead. i wasn't able to play the free trial of them though so, i guess it really is that bad?
The awkward part is that Venture being on the field will make Zarya and D.va better by such a large margin that i believe we may end up in a state where either the combination is overpowered, or alternatively they see no play when no paired in the combination.
I'm happy as hell to see the teamwork aspect return, and never said this was a solely bad thing!
@realth8572 fair enough! was getting the impression that it was a wide gameplay problem and not specific to those heroes. i guess ideally we'd have more than just Venture who'd be able to act as this initiator to match the supportive tanks, enough for them to reasonably balance around this type of synergy without being restrictive.
Litteraly broken Venture has everything good in all archetypes(Tank/DPS/Supp) they can flank sneaky they are tanky they have insane movements never seen since Tracer they can "fly" they have CCs Overleap say Bap and soldier are the counters but Venture just have to perma bump them out of biotic field and destroy as the same time imo field. Well facing them make the game a mess for supports
They are not a tank tho, but they certainly play like one. I hope theres gonna be more heros like this so i maybe can play dps too then
Nah, the same could be said for dps doomfist, bastion in ow1 and reaper.
I will forever regret not adding the reaper addendum to the video 😅
The problem with having a dps which acts like an initiating tank in 5v5 is that the resource donators have been balanced around not being played with initiators. Currently there is no dps duo that can force linear space with a cooldown cycle which incentivises them to get up close and has no instant escape options.
The only current "similar" hero in OW2 is reaper, who is very different in profile to an intitator.
Being able to press wraith immediately means there is less incentive to use resources on him. He also has a linear damage profile that doesnt have any cleaving effect, and incentive to get "close" to the enemy.
@@realth8572 The new phara does the same thing.
@@Ace_Bandido808 I think theres quite a clear distinction between pharas incentive to get upclose (easier to hit rockets) and ventures incentive to get upclose (An entire cooldown cycle which is only otherwise used for mobility).
dude reaper deals 115-180 damage with a body shot and can critic AND can self heal, is Reaper a Tank too? that's the normal kit for any dps in the game having defensive+mobility+damage the difference is Tanks can Deny damage and have huge health pools, venture can not deny damage and his health full shield is not even higher than bastion, the only dps that can deny damage is Genji for his deflect and his purpose is to use it for deal damage too, is Genji = Zarya? Also you forgot that Ashe shotgun has even better knockback than venture the difference is that venture hits multiple times bypassing the tank passive
Really interesting take! The intro was also hilarious lol
hello wanna say love your content pls neva stop!
So venture is doomfist 1.0.
Venture is not tank its fat flank, role that dosent exist in ow but some characters actually fit flanks role like reaper or tracer they have good mobility, some survivability and can dive into backlines to get supports or enemy dps without too much risk
Honestly this is so infuriating as an old rein player, they don't go back to 6v6 and yet they do this bullshit
Bro just sounds like a paladins flank lol
Tons of burst and movement but needs to be precise with their cooldowns and work with their team to get the most value
based pulling out the rainworld jammer
There's only 1 hero in the thumbnail
thank you sherlock holmes!
You've somehow redefined tank as a character that has resources funneled to them from other characters. Completely ignoring the fact that the phenomenon applies to DPS and healers too.
Characters with different sized health bars and ranges, and who want or don’t want to use those resources to do different things, all interact with healing in different ways.
In particular, characters with close range who are incentivised to get multiplicatively more value by getting into closer range and therefore by putting themselves at risk of not only more damage but also more cool-downs and abilities, get disproportionately more out of bursty resources like bubble or Dm.
There is a reason Reinhardt was played with dva and Zarya, and it’s not just the angle control. It’s because those resources are better when paired with Reinhardt.
numbers can get tweaked but bad design takes a rework. kit sounds kinda cool in the tank role too, guess they're scared of another ball situation. "where's my tank!?" 😂
here from samito. bring back 6v6
May the 7HSKW be with you friend 🙏
2:09
Outskirts
Ive been playing venture more like a tracer who wants to be in the back lines more often due to the movement and the effective 405 health (250 base + 40 per skill and 75 per ult) he has. Although i feel he doesnt work as well with supports due to being so far from them and his burrow ignoring interaction from all sides.
So synergising with tanks more i am somewhat fine with if it gives tanks more impact as well
rain world music
Rainworld OST detecte, based and slugcat pilled
Speaking faxxx....
Venture is a support 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Just change Mauga to a DPS and Venture to a Tank and all is well
Time and time again the ow2 dev team shows us they don't understand the game they are working with..
Venture is just another example of this..
love them removing dps doomfist then readding exactly what he did but easier. excellent call dev team really showing ur game design prowess
now they just have to add one shot kill ability and she's there
Yes, because Venture is like old Doom. At this point just make Doom a dps back again
Usually maining tank, I noticed at the start how tank like venture is (or I’m just jealous that venture isn’t a tank and now I’ll have to become a dps one trick)
Good luck with this game. See you in 2 months.
I loath this character. It is everything wrong with hero design - invincibility, 2 get out of jail for free cards, aids for ultimate, way too much mobility. Hate it. HATE IT.
Bring back 6v6
no
@@why8642yes, bot
I'll go one farther. Remove role lock. If there are no tank players then we will simply have no tanks. It'd be a balance nightmare in the same way going back to 6v6 right now would be anyway.
@@depthcharge5091 no, bot
@@kevingriffith6011 they didnt make a bunch of changes going into 6v6 anyway itd just be hp changes and removing some utility from tanks like mauga n jq, its a lot easier to take things away than it is to add a bunch of shit and figuring out what works like theyll have to do to keep reworking tanks like ball n rein
No one playing her :(
I don't think she is a tank or a DPS but a in-between. She has both mobility actions that allow her to avoid damage like Tracer using positioning and mobility AND strong DPS AND the ability to tank.
Nuh uh
The compensation for the loss of a tank is crazy. Now instead of main tank and off tank its tank and mini tank. The fact that they are adding a character with tank aspects to help the actual tank just shows that 6v6 was just better. tank is shit to play I’ve done it all through all the 9 seasons of ow2 and now we are going into season 10 with another annoying dps with annoying asf abilities that paired with certain heroes is just gonna destroy.
Tanks use to run the game which people didn’t like but now the support run the game and people still don’t like it, what’s next, we removing a support and have the dps run the game. Wouldn’t change much the dps already talk the most shit and demand the most from the team, blaming the tank for not being able to survive for two seconds without being discorded, anti naded and hacked, and then blaming the support for not pumping their ass full of heals after charging the whole team thinking they are Rambo getting a 5k so they can post their clips all over.
This game is down the toilet, 5v5 was the worse thing ever I don’t wanna hear it.
I don't think you played 6v6. Queue times were ass, dbl shield was impossible to break from and tanks dominated the battle because there was 2 and each had 500+ hp. It is better to have 500+ and 300 ish hp with better queue times and no d shield than to have all that.
@aether1284 it's easy to say that but, overall there is less shields in the game, less cc in the game, and overall the strength of the dps are increased, pretty much every dps is a tank buster and every support just uses anti and discord on tank cause its just easy to focus the big hitbox and explode them cause it wins you the fight. Only one tank can do so much, and as the game progresses people get better at denying the tank anything. And yes ik the queue times were poo, but I think the game is in a much more healthier state for two tanks. Less shields and less cc mean more intense and interactive team fights. Rein sigma never worked in dbl shield anyway, and ram doesn't have as oppressive as a shield as sigma. Orisa sigma was the comp and that's gone now, we can have 6v6 again and I think it would work better. It would make tank more fun to play and would encourage more people to play tank. Obviously some reworks and number calculations would be needed ie health, damage, cd etc. After a couple months of patches and updates I think the game would actually work alot better.
I knew something was wrong with venture. They were kinda shitty dps but more annoying than doom or ball 😂😂 now i know, they are just tank
I'd argue 6 v 6 did worse for tank expression than 5 v 5 could ever do. In 6 v 6 because space control was so important both tanks had to funnel their resources into survivability. This meant Zarya bubbling rein, and D.VA defense matrixing Winston. From a solo que perspective, if my other tank isn't in coms or im not in coms, it's way riskier for me to decide to bubble our genji diving in, because the other tank is playing believing im going to enable him. Which leads to his death, which leads to the team fight more than likely being lost, because space was just way to important in 6 v 6. In 5 v 5, tanks have the breathing room to not jerk off a signle target all game, they have more freedom of expression, and Blizzard is able to make more interesting tanks since tanks don't have to be balanced around 2 ideas, damage mitigation AND space control. This is why support and DPS are so much more biodiverse. Their role is less specific so if they want to be impactful they don't need to check off multiple boxes. To be a viable tank in 6 v 6 you need 2 things which can just lead to a same-y feeling and likely why they struggled to come out with more tanks in the 1st place if you ask me.
How’d it take blizzard almost 8 years to add an actual queer character to their definitely totally progressive and inclusive game, wonder why it took so long so long for a queer character in overwatch to have their queer identity shown in not just a single comic panel or a twitter post. Curious isn’t it
what?
I loaded into the training range with venture and immediately realised she had too much damage from all her sources and an added escape tool plus shield health on ability usage. GG Blizzard.
I don't think she's in tank category, this feels a lot like Doom from OW1 with high burst point blank combos and then an escape afterwards. Frontline DPS have always existed, I see no reason this is different from Reaper absorbing Zarya bubbles during ult or certain engages.
Reaper had no cleave, no pierce, a linear damage profile and an escape that is instant, meaning they interact with bursty resources differently.
Venture has piercing damage, knockback, cleave, no guaranteed escape. If dps doomfist was released today, there would be exactly the same problems with offtank balance which are going to arise, because the offtanks have been balanced around not having a resource conduit in play.
Gonna be honest I understand if you just like the play of overwatch or you were around during overwatch golden age. But I just can’t fully get why people are staying around this shell of what it once was, so many broken promises, Jeff Kaplan the main guy behind the game leaving, and just boring to brokenly sad characters constantly being released needing nerfs or changes to make them appealing. I could never be in this weird hate, hate a little love then hate again for this game.
Venture seems like an alright guy