Religious Tolerance Shouldn't Mean Accepting Lower Moral Standards | Big Think
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- Опубліковано 17 лис 2015
- Religious Tolerance Shouldn't Mean Accepting Lower Moral Standards
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Author and anti-Islamist activist Maajid Nawaz explains how certain members of the "regressive left" threaten progress within minority communities, in particular liberal Muslims. Members of the left too often champion a brand of racism of low expectations, through which they lower their standards when looking at other cultures if those cultures happen to express a level of misogyny, chauvinism, bigotry, or anti-Semitism, and yet hold other white people to universal liberal standards. This misguided prioritization of cultural tolerance over the progress and the advancement of liberal values handicaps the evolution of minority communities and harms the weakest members of those groups. Nawaz' argument is simple: If we claim to support human rights and classical liberalism, why do we pull punches when it comes to criticizing minority communities and cultures that don't live up to those standards?
Nawaz and fellow Big Think expert Sam Harris are co-authors of the new book Islam and the Future of Tolerance: A Dialogue.
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MAAJID NAWAZ:
Maajid Usman Nawaz is a British activist, author, columnist and politician. He was the Liberal Democrat parliamentary candidate for London's Hampstead and Kilburn constituency in the 2015 General Election. He is also the co-founder and chairman of Quilliam, a counter-extremism think tank that seeks to challenge the narratives of Islamist extremists.
Nawaz is a former member of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir. This association led to his arrest in Egypt in December 2001, where he remained imprisoned until 2006. Reading books on human rights and interacting with Amnesty International, which adopted him as a prisoner of conscience, resulted in a change of heart. This led Nawaz to leave Hizb-ut-Tahrir in 2007, renounce his Islamist past and call for a "Secular Islam."
After his turnaround, Nawaz co-founded Quilliam with former radical Islamists, including Ed Husain. He documented his life story in his Amazon bestselling autobiography Radical (2012). Since then, he has risen to become a prominent critic of Islamism in the United Kingdom. He is a regular op-ed contributor, debater and public commenter, and has spoken from various international platforms including the TED conference. He presented his views on radicalisation in front of US Senate Committee and UK Home Affairs Committee in their respective inquiries on the roots of radical extremism.
Nawaz is proficient in three languages: English, Urdu and Arabic. He is a weekly columnist for The Daily Beast, and had his writings published in various international newspapers including New York Times, The Guardian, Financial Times, Daily Mail and Wall Street Journal. He has made appearances on programmes including, but not limited to, Larry King Live, BBC Hard Talk, Charlie Rose, 60 Minutes, Newsnight and Real Time with Bill Maher. He has delivered lectures at LSE and University of Liverpool, and has given talks at UK Defence Academy and Marshall Center for Security Studies.
In June 2014, Nawaz became an honorary associate of the National Secular Society which was founded in 1866. His second book Islam and the Future of Tolerance (2015), co-authored with American neuroscientist Sam Harris, was published in October 2015.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Maajid Nawaz: There’s a section within the left. I refer to them as the regressive left and I want to clarify I don’t mean all of those on the left. I mean a section that have come to the view for the sake of political correctness, for the sake of tolerating what they believe is other cultures and respecting different lifestyles. They have an inherent hesitation to challenge some of the bigotry that can occur within minority communities. I mean at the end of the day if we truly subscribe to liberal human rights values in their universality and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, they apply not just in favor of minority communities, but in some instances upon minority communities too.
And it’s what I call the racism of low expectations: to lower those standards when looking at a brown person if a brown person happens to express a level of misogyny, chauvinism, bigotry, or anti-Semitism and yet hold other white people to universal liberal standards. The real victim of that double standard are the minority communities themselves because by doing so we limit their horizons; ..................
To read the transcript, please go to bigthink.com/videos/maajid-na...
My respect for this guy went up by like 5 points.
^^Too True.
+Suave Atore My still didn't. Didn't go down. But not up.
He's still trying to pander to the people who are going to cut him down for calling on their bullshit, no matter how gentle he was about it.
+Suave Atore Gotta smash that like button
+lloydgush How is he pandering to them if he is calling them out on their bullshit?
Jake Stone The way he calls them out.
And the worst is that she's showing weakness, and they react more strongly to weakness than to dissent.
I am starting to understand why Sam Harris respects this man so much.
As an ex muslim, I still feel judged and treated differently because of my name, Thanks ISIS!
Are you atheist now?
+Samuel Bubles This reminds me of how I always feel bad for the Sikhs after events like Paris happen, as I fear there are a lot of idiots who think "they" are all the same. I hope you find people who show you the respect you deserve and that for Muslims who haven't left the faith whatever difficult conversations need to be had can occur with words rather than violence and critique rather than prejudice.
+Danyal Ahmad of course
+Samuel Bubles Same here, all ex-Muslims Unite. All 7 of us Lol
AhsanY2K haha, dont worry, religion as a Whole is in a state of constant decline, we just saw light first.
THIS RIGHT HERE!! We need exactly this!
Well said! Bravo!
See, this is a more constructive way to respond to people you agree with.
Chaos Theory
Dude, you following me? o_0 Weird.
And I can live with me being wrong on the TYT video you first commented on. Some others pointed out that TYT had raised legitimate issues about Islam before.
I like Nawaz the more I listen to him however. Any long-term changes will have to come from within the community. We could use about 100,000 more of this guy.
Shkotay D We just watch the same content.
Do you watch Dnews, TED, PBS Space Time, Vsauce, VICE, SciShow Space and all their sister channels too?
I wouldn't be surprised.
When I was in high school me and my friends were debating the theory of evolution .. I even brought to some verses that I thought it may work with the theory ... A teacher scolded me came to me and said ... Are you a even a Muslim? Do you even pray? I said yes alhamdullilah I am quite religious sir ... Recently I was debating about the LGBTQ community's rights and I walked away happy because maybe they didn't agree with me .. Maybe they mocked me but they were open to debate it at least ... I do have hope to see a more liberal Muslim community .. God knows we liberal Muslims thrive for the better of our whole community no matter what gender or sex they are ... I've even tried writing a book about being a liberal Muslim I even had stories of gay Muslims I met online that I wanted to write about but ... Maybe first we need to work on the freedom of speech in the Middle East
+omar alsahlawi Why didn't you say "we all cherry pick from the fucking quran, I just cherry pick from different parts!"
Keep up the good work brother, and stay safe.
+itsasin1969 Christianity had committed evils during the crusades during a different part of chirstianities history. Islam is currently being used regressively. Shariah law being used to impose harsh laws against homosexuals and apostates and terrorism is a good example of this. I am sure they're many muslims that do not want it that way.
You should be able to be proud of your religion, the way Christians are proud of theirs. Edited section:
Im not proud of christianity, but there are things in the bible that I have a hard time understanding why people would believe. However, most people don't strictly follow the bible. I sincerly doubt there will be a day when there is no christianity or no islam. You are an evil person if you kill a person you know nothing about. Everywhere, people should condemn these actions. I don't know how people who practice Islam will deal with this. However, any reprehensible sections of the hadiths or the Koran should be labeled as reprehensible. Terrorist need to stop operating under their delusions.
@omar alsahlawi i would absolutely love to read that book you spoke of wanting to write. id be very interested in hearing your views, even if just chapters or ideas that you were working out. If that ever comes about, let me know!!
+omar alsahlawi انت كفو يا سهلاوي
ليت منك واجد
Whoa... the thumbnail of this video contains the words Liberal and Muslim, and yet the ratio of thumbs-up to thumbs-down is 22:1. What's going on here? This isn't the internet I know.
+David S. Evidently the Internet is not mindlessly bigoted as is widely believed -- go figure. Maajid Nawaz is a champion for true liberal values.
The thumbnail and this guy's ending points are utterly wrong to me. I believe that everyone has the right to self identify, but also to be identified by others. Regardless, the fact that he is standing up to fellow leftists, and calling for them to judge every individual in the same way trumps my overall disagreements.
+David S. Either the demographic for the Big Think is people above 22 or the attention span of Millennials has miraculously increased.
+David S.
The reason there are so many likes compared to dislikes is because he challenged the view of liberal apologists who feel they should never question archaic practices because of "religious tolerance".
+DiscoveredNotCreated This video is five minutes long. Milliennials frequently watch Nextflix series in 13 hour binges. I don't think the age/attention span connection is the key to Big Think's moderately more thoughtful than average UA-cam audience.
"In protecting the group identity we end up reinforcing iliberal values, because we prioritize cultural tolerance over the progress and advancement of liberalism within minority communities". Very well put.
Masjid Nawaz has a lot of courage. He represents the best hope of Islam and I wish him the very best.
If Muslims (like Christians) followed their holy text 100% faithfully to the teachings in thwm, both would be fucking insane.
+leondelafonte Too bad we do have a sect of Islam who follows their holy book to recruit and create atrocities. Christians are not doing this in modern day (Africa is a closed system, ISIS is getting recruits from all over). Stop slowing the conversation with this.
TechNick94 Africa is a closed system, so any atrocities done under the name of Christ is OK/acceptable/negligeble? I'm confused with what point you're trying make here.
They're both doing horrible stuff in the name of their religion.
+leondelafonte I think he means that it would all still happen in Africa, even if there was no religion.
***** Yes, yes they would. Just look at history and the present day examples.
+leondelafonte that is pretty ignorant actually, the christian faith holds the old testament for context and proof but practically no religious rules from it apply in fact the birth of liberalism came from the enlightenment period brought on by christian morals in europe and the greater west.
It's a common mistake among lay people but this sophistry has become a bit too common so you shouldn't compare the words of peace from a carpenter and all around chill guy that walked across one of the most violent places in the world without so much as a stick to the writings of a power hungry warlord hellbent on seeing the world conquered in his name.
As a well-meaning liberal I've been guilty of this, thanks Maajid Nawaz for pointing out this rather big flaw in my thinking.
UGHHH! !!!!!!
Maajid was so spot on with what he said here i can only really express it with a noise.
One of the good videos for a while.
There is one fault with this argument. Why is there a "muslim community" or for that matter any other community. I'm from the UK, should not all of us here be apart of the British community? That's the real problem.
Same reason there's a UA-cam community, Christian community, or Buddhist community, or vape community, or BDSM community, or military community. There's a community for nearly everything.
People with similar interests or ideas like to share and communicate with one another.
+Andrew Scotchmer Yes, technically you are.
Just technically, britain is a country which means shit, islam is a religion which also means shit.
In practice you are human being still too attached to the idea of identity.
+Andrew Scotchmer You are all part of the British community. You are assuming that you can only be a part of one community, which is entirely false. It is just a group with a common trait or interest. So there is a London salsa dance community, I would guess. It is a rather harmless word and does not mean what you think is means, as a group completely separate or a defining factor of a person/group.
Yes indeed but that I'm afraid is some way off yet. The development of human civilisation has been measured and what you refer to is still, at the current rate of progress, about 150 years off into the future (we are still a type zero civilisation - not even on the ladder). Once we develop into a type one civilisation we will, among many other things, no longer hold attachment to any plot of land and borders become irrelevant. However it would be a great start if we first, within the confines of our own geographically constrained cultures, to at least identify as one and not segregate ourselves into "communities."
+Drillzack Brominium Again I agree entirely with you Drillzack, These are arbitrary man-made labels and constructs. I guess we were both born too early, On a more pessimistic note, its been theorised that the reason we have not encountered alien life is that no other civilisation, assuming it has existed somewhere in the universe, made it to a type one civilisation. They basically destroyed themselves when they had the ability to do so but when they lacked the wisdom to refrain.
This guy needs to be on Bill Maher.
+Rob Wilson He has already been on it. But I would like to see him on it as one of the main panel guest, so he gets to speak longer.
Saying Muslim gay community facing many challenges within Muslim community is a very gentle way to put it haha. But that aside it was a great speech.
This man needs both praise and protecting. If the SJW/progressives don't attack him, radical muslims will under the justification of a fatwa or that he is an apostate. I applaud his courage in speaking the politically incorrect truth.
Very well spoken. False tolerance is far worse than no tolerance at all.
Reminds me of a quote I quite like but can't remember who said it.
"The first amendment is not there to protect what the majority feels, it is there to protect unpopular speech." I feel like it applies to the concept of free speech in general quite well.
This dude just went hot knife through butter mode. Nailed it.
As they say, the soft bigotry of low expectations.
Goddamn I love you Maajid.
this is amazing . I'm not a Muslim but I have been an immigrant in an European country . and I have been trying all my life to explain what this man as explained perfectly in 5 min. this sort of discrimination happens in
all communities and it makes me hopeful to see that someone is paying attention to this. we need to stop placing groups and concepts and really see the other person , why is it so difficult ?
Big Think, you need more of Maajid Nawaz on the channel these days (or ever).
Oh sir! Thank you for describing this better than I have been able. "The racism of lowered expectations." That's gonna help me provide context in some ongoing conversations in my life.
So much fucking truth in this.
This has been the best Big Think for months.
To me its not our place to reform other cultures the change needs to happen from within.
+HG Shurtugal But his point is we shouldn't tolerate it either
Look how well that change is taking place in Saudi Arabia.
+HG Shurtugal neither is our duty to accept all of their cultural traits within our own society
+HG Shurtugal When they're murdering us, it kind of becomes our problem.
+HG Shurtugal We should not try to physically force a culture to change, but that is very different then condoning it or saying it is ok for them because of their traditions. We should be very critical of the Islamic view of rape, where is a women is raped but can't prove it beyond an insanely high standard, she can be kill for being raped. Or the practice of honor killings. Or the insane level of sexism. Or homophobia. And while it is totally unreasonable to say "we don't approve of your culture, there for we will invade your country and try to force change" it is not at all reasonable to say "we don't approve of your culture, there for we will not trade with you until these practices are stopped".
He is very brave and gives us hope that there is actually modern Islamic thinkers arround
Islam needs voices like this
I've heard quite a few people try to say exactly what this guy is saying, but somehow...this guy nailed it like no other.
Wonderful to see Maajid (Magic) getting more of the exposure he deserves.
What a hero. Round of applause for this man. Appeals to not browns or whites but appeals to humanity itself.
Toleration of intolerance is intolerable for good people of any race or religion.
i strongly suggest people to subscribe to this man's YT channel. this person can challenge the beliefs of the most sensible PC puritans and still be sound like gentleman.
Repect is earned. Tolerance is a given.
I've always respected Nawaz's healthy view of the problem of radical islam. we desperately need many more visible voices such as his .
As usual Maajid is saying exactly what the world needs to hear and absorb right now.
This is a really insightful argument for the means to practically progress in the face of the inaction of blanket tolerance. I watched this 3 times to pick up all of his arguments and assertions.
Good job Maajid. I AGREE WITH YOU AND WE ARE ACTING ELITIST AND CONDECENDING TO ACCEPT BAD BEHAVIOR FROM ANY GROUP BECAUSE THEY ARE...OH WELL JUST THOSE PEOPLE.
I like this guy and all , i even liked the video, but the truth is the only reason people assume the quintessential Muslim is the conservative Muslim is because Imams and the like namely leaders in the religion tout ideas of conservative Islam yes there might be variations depending on their branch of Islam but ultimately messages of misogyny and intolerance take precedence invariably. Since Muslims are usually very devout they tend to listen to and follow these leaders as all humans do with their respective leaders. We can not turn a blind eye to this, even with his great points.
+Sebanoe Imams do not hold the same position in Islam like the Church leaders do in Christianity. In Islam there is no leadership structure, I mean it is there but you can choose to completely ignore it and do what You think is right. That is one of the things that drive these Terrorist attacks by lone wolves.
But the Absence of this leadership can be used as an opportunity to instill basic liberal values into the Islamic Community. All hope is not lost, but we will need more people like Maajid and Asra Nomani to stand up and be counted.
+Sebanoe Exactly why he is urging individualsm over collectivism. The liberal Muslim is in minority and has little voice.
+AhsanY2K
_"I mean it is there but you can choose to completely ignore it and do what You think is right. "_
That's how you get your head cut off in the muslim world. Look, interpretation of the Qur'an is closed and has been for ages. Muslims have the ancient tafsirs to refer to regarding interpretation and if you disagree with all of them, you're simply wrong and an infidel.
_"That is one of the things that drive these Terrorist attacks by lone wolves. "_
What a joke. They're following one of the most straight forward teachings in Islam - that Jihadists are promised extra rewards in the afterlife.
_"But the Absence of this leadership can be used as an opportunity to instill basic liberal values into the Islamic Community."_
No it can't. All you can do is lie to muslims about what Islam's nature has been historically. While this might work in some sense, the problem is that they will be wide open for jihadists to come and inform them that they are being lied to and what Allah's will actually has been interpreted to be - by scholars far closer to mohammed than any of your liberal teachers are today.
_"All hope is not lost, but we will need more people like Maajid and Asra Nomani to stand up and be counted."_
Well, there never was any hope to begin with. Isølam is fundamentally barbaric and always was. Just read up on Islamic Imperialism. and its theological justification. The only way forward is to deconvert muslims and the best way to do this is to ban Islam from the entire west and insert some kind of comparative religion class in schools. This would have the dual effect of encouraging deranged cultists to move to muslim countries and destroying religious impulse in young children of muslims who decide to remain.
Maajid's approach is unfortunately dead in the water. It's fantastically naive and fundamentally dishonest in light of what Islam actually has been historically. Further more, the very idea that the goal is to change Islam seems to admit that it is barbaric shit at the moment and I honestly don't see the point of trying to polish a turd to make it more presentable when you can simply scoop it up and throw it in the trash. Islam literally has nothing to teach modern civilization and there's no need to pretend we respect it or people who bow down to Mohammed's barbarism.
Gnomefro Oh Dear God, you can't distill you ideas into fewer words? Let me make this short and sweet. "Ijtihad" is a practice in Islam, which was put in place by Mohammad so that the religion could evolve with times You are completely ignorant about certain aspects of the religion. And what Maajid proposes is that the theologians use this practice to blunt the effects of the literal interpretation of Quran, much like what Christianity did.
In an ideal world there won't be any religion but we must be pragmatic. We cannot systematically kill off 1.6 Billion people because of their beliefs. And Maajid's approach has a better chance of working and it has worked to a large extent in the UK. Then that of yours or mine(ex-muslim) telling Muslims what they believe is wrong. That is going to fall on deaf ears. There is already a precedent of open Debate and it is out there, anyone can just search for Hitchens. But that has largely been ignored
Props to Maajid (pronouced like 'magic' except ending in a 'd'). I know he has an interesting dialogue with Sam Harris that's expository & not contentious. Maajid is working inside islam like Ayaan Hirsi Ali is working as an ex-muslim to change islam from within. Much of the world's population is seeing the curtain being pulled back to reveal the ugliness of humanity infected with religious beliefs as expressed by barbaric practices. “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” -Voltaire
Phelan That's how Maajid himself explained how to say his own name!
Phelan Likely so.
Smart guy. The Ottoman empire was quite secular and tolerant. It is not Islam but fundamentalism of ALL religions that is the problem. This guy is nuanced in his opinions, I like him.
'Not a section, a significant majority, quite visible'
this makes a lot of sense, i really think that just for sake of political correctness, liberals are creating this new thing which he described as racism of low expectations in regards of muslim culture
And for this he was profiled by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
The truth Mr Nawaz conveyed and the way he expressed it was rather moving..I actually thumbed up this video based on the title, and wasn't disappointed by the content.
I'm a leftist. I have zero issue with someone being Christian or Muslim. It's when they try to force their religion on me that I get annoyed.
Fuck yeah Maajid, you're a true warrior in the battle of ideas.
HE GOOD.
What a fucking relief
I have really liked this guy so much since I read his book *Radical: My Journey Out of Islam Extremism*. And of course I also respect his best buddy, Sam Harris.
He just hit on one of the main reasons I tilt slightly more right than I do left. Consistency.
Freaking Amazing Video! This one is for the present and for the future, for Muslims and for any minority. Even for you in that moment you feel alone in the middle or a crowd. Just brilliant.
Thank you I don't often hear this rational argument but this is as clear and concise as any as I have heard thus far. Tolerance should never tolerate intolerance.Thank you so much for explaining your position and having the courage to voice it here.Thanks.
this isnt hard to come to this conclusion. its one second of thinking
It's refreshing to watch/listen to folks like Maajid, Sam Harris....and other like minded intellectuals.
Good stuff. About time someone with his credibility said this.
Maajid Nawaz is exactly who we as a civilization need representing and leading the religious. I'd take a single Nawaz over a thousand Popes.
Islam needs to be reformed.
There is a small but important typo in the subtext at 03:02 - "In protecting the group identity we end up reinforcing illiberal values..." Not "..in liberal values"
Excellent. My exact thoughts summarized perfectly.
Wow. I'm a Classical Liberal and a feminist (not 3rd-wave) but this was really eye-opening...
This guy can stay he is one of the few Muslims I truly respect
It is so nice to not have the Mental Health stuff for a change :)
You should get this guy on more often, he's great!
They should get Gad Saad on this.
I first saw this guy with his feud against Sam Harris and I have to say I love him more
Spot on.
Best Video I've Seen in a while. Quite Enlightening.
Very very very well said. THANK YOU
Hey question: Is it ok to lower the expectation of the moral values of individuals who have Or individuals who have been through alot of trauma? For example survivors of war? Or individuals who have been forced to adopt bad values to survive?
Glad to see more people speaking out to the regressive left.
This is excellent.
"Come to me as you are. I won't judge you by the deeds of your ancestors or those you call your brothers and sisters. As I cannot see your past with my eyes, I won't judge you based on it. I cannot presume what you will do in the future, so I won't hold it against you. I will treat you as a person who has the intelligence to make his or her own decisions now, in this moment. And we will either form a friendship or part ways amicably".
great to see Majid here.
Goddamn.
This guy nailed it.
One thing that occurs to me is that multiculturalism is considered a post modern philosophy. Like all postmodern philosophies it is inherently very critical of classical liberalism. It is often critical of contemporary liberalism as well. I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with these criticisms. But the fact that so many of them exist on such a large scale, and the fact that so many of them are as reasonable as they are, would tell me that liberalism is not the end-all philosophy that its most zealous advocates would believe it to be. I consider it to be one of the best ideologies we have tried on a large scale yet. but I still see it as a stepping stone.
This man is a hero for saying the truth.
Just because is brown does not mean I am retarded, if I am the wrong talk to me and point out. I too am a human, flawed but capable of growing.
Maajid on Big Think. At last!!!!!
thank god he changed his mind great guy
well said, my friend. Liked and shared
If every muslim would think like Maajid Nawaz, we wouldn't have a problem with islam. Respect!!
SO RELATABLE !!!! SO TRUE!
so well spoken.
very interesting, well said.
Give the guy theNobel prize or something
I'm not saying don't criticize the religion, or be mindful of anyone's feelings, I'm saying don't feed into the islamphobic rhetoric which will lead to more war. Have we learned nothing from the past 10 years of "The War on Terror"?
Nailed it.
A man who speaks what my mind and heart have been thinking since forever. You, sir, make me proud to be a muslim. In all honesty, i've always been critisized by fellow muslims as too western and ¨out of this world¨.. but i'm glad you have made me realise i'm a liberal muslim. I listen to many podcasts and political discussions and never have i heard the word liberal in direct corelation to being muslim. I am seriously happy about this video, and i think you so so much!
+UnHealable93 Sounds great, all the best in life!
Bravo!
It's the No True Scotsman fallacy 101.
Don't forget atheists with brown skin and muslim names
no matter how much you try to please them, they just wont be pleased with you, untill you live an they live, and belief in what they belief in......
Everything you said is true, but the opposite is also true.
Muslims who chooses a more conservative experience, bother no one and live their lives in a more orthodox fashion should have the freedom to do so as well.
Any were, any place any time.
NO WAY ITS MAAJID. EXCELLENT VIDEO BTW
It's funny, I'm watching the new South Park episode and they just had a scene that almost perfectly mirrored the point about "authentic Muslims".
True dat
YES.
I by and large agree with the points made in this video. I also have a couple of points of disagreement.
1) 3:52 I think Maajid's description of only accepting conservative Muslims as authentic Muslims is true for other conservatives (especially Christians, especially Biblical literalists). However, I think the dynamic is the opposite for the group he is critiquing: liberals. Some liberals will bend over backward insisting that only the liberal Muslims are authentic Muslims. The conservative and especially fundamentalist Muslims are, these liberals claim, perverting Islam for their own benefit.
2) 3:12 Though it's relatively minor to the overall thrust of the video, I do not think a liberal will always prioritize the individual over the group. Not by a long shot. A big part of being liberal (at least in the American sense of the word) is understanding how individuals are treated based on their identifying as part of a group or their having some superficial characteristic (e.g. black skin) that causes others to place them in a group. You could say that heresy and dissenting voices will not be prioritized 100% of the time either, but those two will be *pretty darn close* to absolutes.
yes