"Charisma is not a factor; basically if you're intended to be entertained in the character's force of personality and relishing being a villain, I'm not counting them." Well, there goes Handsome Jack.
Worst of all in the Josh case, is that the reason why no doctor was able to help him, is because he was being treated for the wrong problem. After all, he was suffering from schizophrenia, yet all the prescriptions he got were of anti-depressants, which leave the main problem, his over-active dopamine unchecked (after all, they only tackled the decrease in serotonin), and it's specially appalling because it's something that anyone who has gone to medicine school should know, so the only explanation is that those doctors, simply didn't care enough to help him when he needed help the most. Also, it explains a lot his behaviour, since schizophrenia tends to have simptoms like auditory and visual hallutinations (the fact that he sees his dead sisters blaming him for not being there when he was so wasted that he couldn't do a thing), paranoia (he thinks that nobody cares for him, to the point that they would leave him to die even though he was about to be cut in half by a sawblade), social withdrawal (he things that what he does is socially acceptable, like, he even says that it was just a prank, which also, is a nice word choice, because they also thought that what they did to his sisters was just a prank) and disorganized speech (his rambling when he tells them that he was the psycho, it's so incoherent because they are portraying a book case of schizophrenia). It's quite sad that the one that has the least control over his life and the one that was begging for help can't be saved, after all, he either gets his skull crushed by a wendigo or he becomes a wendigo himself.
@@theskullboy8700 Yeah, I know. I don't expect anyone to think that I have medic levels of knowledge about psychology (I mean, I am sure I would be terrible in any science-based studies), but I'm explaining why it's such a sad ending for the character to me, because he was never fully in control and didn't have a chance (I'm really into that type of characters, because it's in those cases where you understand that they are wrong, but at the same time can comprehend why they did it, and feel sorry for them, instead of the usual bad is bad because bad that some stories end up writing). Though maybe I should've said that it was a game theory's video, so, I kinda understand if someone who saw the video and read my comment would've thought I was trying to look smart stealing someone's theories, but I can assure you that was not my intention.
@@theskullboy8700 Yeah, I mean, I guess it's universal the fact that someone who lost a brother/sister would act like that, so, it is kinda relatable. After all, it's for the ones we love that we are able to do the worst of things (also, I feel it also affects the fact that all the characters he haunts are morally questionable, like, it makes you feel like they kinda deserve it, since they all have horrible options, like shooting Emiliy in cold blood, letting someone die to the wendigos. It paints them in really bad ways if they do that, so, in just scaring them, it feels like it's not such a big deal)
Josh: "The devil. Satan. The first fallen angel." Ad starts: "I lost my job at age 56." Me: "Geeze, times really are getting tough when even the Dark One gets canned"
One character that comes to mind is The Pale King from Hollow Kngiht. Yes, killing thousands of your own children until finding the one who is truly empty of thoughts and emotions in order to trap the Radiance is horryfing and disturbing, but... what other choice did he have? The game never hints at another solution to trap or defeat the Radiance. Hell, Ghost, the protagonist, the character you control, his main objective is to trap the Radiance, and depending on your choices, he can succeed. if you obtain the Void Heart (which allows its host to become hollow) and defeat the Hollow Knight, the Radiance is trapped forever within you; and if you dream nail the Hollow Knight (again, after possesing the Void Heart), you can actuallly kill her, thus proving The Pale King right. What else could he have done? There was no other solution. He either sacrificed one of his children to trap the Radiance, or do nothing and let the Raidance escape from the dream world and mentally enslave the entire population of Hallownest, turning everyone into a mindless puppet whose only purpose is to worship her for eternity.
The entire main conflict of hollow knight has characters we are supposed to hate, but that we unintentionally feel sorry for. The radiance was nearly forgotten about because of the pale king showing up and creating hallownest. Because of her nature as a deity within the realm of dreams, being forgotten would be equal to death. The radiance was understandably furious. Did that excuse her actions of creating an infection that turned people into zombified puppets? Absolutely not, but the radiance was too furious to care about any reprocussions other than seeing hallownest fall
Although not from a video game specifically, I'd argue another good example of this is Eddy from Ed Edd n Eddy. Sure, he's a grifter with a mouth as loud as a bullhorn, but bear in mind that much of his attitude came from learning from his brother, both his abuses and his shady tactics. It's hard to fault Eddy completely when your own brother treats you like a punching bag and gives you lessons on how to be an asshole. It's what makes the ending of Big Picture Show satisfying when not only does his bro get a door to the face, but that Eddy finally owns up to his mistakes, and the other kids actually come to his defense because of the perspective between the the two.
As much as I agree, the only problem I see with this is that killing them all seems... kind of needless? Like, why kill them and abandon them in the abyss? Even if he didn't want to raise them, why not just leave them be? Ghost shows that the vessels can get by on their own just fine without parental guidance so why murder them all so casually? I think THAT'S the part that makes him seem so villainous to so many people
As someone who picked Golden Deer first (wasn’t planning on it, but Claude’s charisma won me over)...yeah, pretty sure I picked my favorite route first. Claude’s ideals are, in my opinion, a realist’s approach to Friendship is Magic: wanting peace for all in a world where cultural boundaries are broken, yet knowing full well that such peace cannot come without sacrifice. Even so, he doesn’t let his goal blind him to his methods, and always tries to minimize that sacrifice to what is absolutely necessary. Godspeed, Claude; you are a ruler I would follow to the ends of the earth.
BUT 1 problem, Lucifer and Satan are not the Same Being, Thats basically due to a Terrible Mistranslation of the Bible and due to poor religious leaders and practices they ended up being the same umbrella branch of 'The Devil' Lucifer and Satan are also 2 Separate characters in ALL SMT games including 4.
@@lionheart1013 The notion they are not the same is debatable. For what it's worth, my own church teaches that modern revelation has revealed they are the same person. Setting that aside, the "great dragon cast down" in Revelation 12:9 seems to correlate nicely with with the description of Lucifer in Isaiah 14: 12-16. While neither of these are explicitly named in the Bible as "Satan" or "the devil", the implication is strong that they are the same. The adversary of God is always described as one person, or at least, one host acting in concert. "How can Satan cast out Satan?" The leader may be referred to by different titles; Beelzebub, "the prince of this world", "that old serpent", etc., but I see no indication in the Bible they are separate individuals.
@@Regfife Every Church and Religious figure have their own interpretation of Satan/Lucy which is what lead to all the confusion around em as well as misinurpratation of them. You also got to remember the Old Testament, New Testament and Revelations were all written Centuries apart from one another and were written in different languages. However this isn't about the whole Relgious debate as thats a debate that can last multiple lifetimes. This is more of Satan and Lucifers Portrayal in the SMT Franchise as Separate beings. Beelzebub is also a Separate entity in SMT and is a General under Lucy majority of the Time and yeah hes not a very nice Demon and Typically serves as the 2nd to last boss before you Fight Lucy himself. Fun Fact: To Get Beelzebub as a Demon you need to Evolve him from his Original Demon form Bal Zabul (Or Bal) the Sumerian God of Agriculture before he becomes the 'Lord of Flies' as we know em
The Shin Megami Tensei games consistently twist and butcher Christian theology to tell a story. And I say this as a fan of the original Devil Survivor game, which used Cain and Abel as core characters, but added a hell of a lot to do so. "The Adversary" is the term I know, with Satan and Lucifer being more recent.
Satan in smt is also much nicer than god because he actually calls god out (AKA works with you to kill him) for being a monster. Though satan’s actions in smt 4 apocalypse might be influenced by lucifer since in that game lucifer is a part of satan split off to create an adversary to make god look better (which failed horribly)
#1 though. It's like Yoko Tara was screaming at you "HATE HIM! HATE HIM!" But the game failed to produce a valid reason as to why. Sounds a lot like today's political discourse...
Drakengard is a barrel of laughs; we've got Sweet Home Alabama next to what Yoko says is the goody-goody of the group, the lady who thinks of children as the other white meat, the guy who has "another" taste for the said white meat..and the white meat that's stuck in perma-veal mode. Oh, and we can't forget Sir Necromantic.
I love Solas. He spent his life trying to free slaves from his peers, only to sleep for centuries and wake up learning he is villainized by the descendants of the slaves and the slavers are worshiped. And the red lyrium future trip the Inquisitor took was supposed to show how Solas sees the future he is in now. He feels like he made a mistake because he tried to help people but it just ended up worse, now he wants to go back and try to fix it. But if you befriend him this becomes torturous for him. Cause he made the mistake of befriending the people in this horrible future. So even though he is conflicted and feels horrible, he feels like he has to destroy everything to make it right again, even killing his friend and/or lover. It's soooo good!
I also liked Solas. Actually never actually had a problem with him and he haven’t did anything he disapproved of. I actually wish we saw him earlier in the series. In fact I think most of what happened in Dragon Age 2 could have been avoided if Solas was in it.
Solas be the quiet kid in class who slides you a note like "don't come to school on tuesday' and you're like 'BUT WHY' and he just looks at you like you're dumb bc you probably are and he's like *I'm trying to save you from me u idiot*
The thing about Lucifer: While is aligned with Chaos, when he merges with Merkahbah to *become* Satan, they're ultimately on the side of Law; God's right-hand man.
But the Lucifer in IV isn't the Lucifer who you typically see. In prior games, Lucifer and the Archangels existed at the same time. As did the Archangels and Satan. As did Satan and Lucifer.
@Grima the Fell Dragon If my memory has not gone out the window, I believe satan was split into Lucy and Merk in this game cause this time around YhVh brought him back to be the big bad he could rally humanity against, so Lucy took satan's job of temping humanity while Merk was left with the job of judging humanity.
@Grima the Fell Dragon I think the reason that's said in game is that YHVH had Lucifer be an opposition to his forces to make himself look better. Lucifer didn't realize until the end.
Smt 2 has both lucifer and satan active at the same time so it’s probably just smt 4 and apocalypse where lucifer is a pawn of god. 4 and 2 are in seperate dimensions anyway.
I don't see Guzma as a villain personally. Sure, he allied himself with Lusamine and the Aether Foundation and loves to flout his clout, as well as his team terrorizing people, but man, his father physically abused him for not being the best, Team Skull is filled with Pokemon Trainers who didn't make it far, and the place they reside in is essentially a ruined city. Guzma wants to see himself as important when the world around him keeps shoving him to the sidelines, and I don't blame him for it.
@@ArcCaravan Fair enough. It was Guzma's choice to form a team. However, I believe that part of that choice was to help shelter and revitalize the will of people whom were hurt by the facade of becoming a Pokemon Champion, in a 180 to how Guzma's father treated him for failure.
Well, at least in at least one ending it was kaiju-sized, toothy babies. That seems like a worthy fight. If you don't go mad from the fundamental underpinnings of reality shattering.
I honestly think that along with Spec-Ops the Line, Modern Warfare 2 did this better because the game made No Russian an exception to the rule. Anyone mission you try to shoot a civilian it is a game over for the player. The mission wouldn't have the same weight if you could kill them any other mission.
Ah yes, Edelgard. It speaks volumes about how well she was written that she can still be a hot topic of conversation. What I think a lot of people overlook, though, is that she’s less of an absolutist in her own route. Despite her claims, Edelgard in Crimson Flower DOES have boundaries; she actively tries to minimize casualties when and where she can, and even offers her foes the chance to surrender when she sees them backed into a corner.
Not to mention that she is also a victim of circumstance. She can't really afford more peaceful options because she would be long dead by the time those options succeed, thanks to the shortened lifespan.
Also another thing to add is that it's not just TWSITD responsible for all the problems in Fodlan. The Church of Seiros arguably is guilty of at the very least keeping a false history and upholding the status quo that is causing suffering throughout the continent. Plus, it is debatable as to whether war is the only way to change things. Plus, in my case, I think it helps that when you pick the Eagles, the fact that Rhea was wanting you to execute Edelgard immediately without even trying to understand why she is doing what she is doing helps also. Rhea's order probably makes it easier for players such as myself to choose to protect her.
Yeah one of the questions she can potentially ask you during the war is what to do should Rhea decide to surrender, and one of the responses you can give is for Rhea to give up her political power and never intervene with Fodlan's politics, and I believe Edelgard loves that response the best, so she's willing to spare even Rhea should the latter give up without a fight. Plus, it helps that in her Crimson Flower supports, she is more open to considering others' opinions than in other routes, arguably since she realized that trusting others can pay off since her openness with Byleth is what arguably helps her win his/her support.
Ehh, i wouln't say is her character's writing what makes the division and more the way her route clashes with the other two, if you only play the black eagles it looks like she is right about burning the church, but it's because Byleth softens the plot, when you side with the church she goes badguy hard, you play blue lions and she devolves into full villain trying to burn the church and a (lot) bit of fodland, and golden deers is basically the "Edelgard was wrong" campaign. I think she is a good character, but 3H clearly wanted to remind that she is team badguys, and many people couldn't accept that.
@@jaimeantonioolaguezchirino5805 If I recall correctly though, I don't think the Golden Deer casts Rhea and the church in an entirely positive light as well since Rhea is revealed to be a huge liar and that Claude has serious issues with her.
"When darkness goes bad, everyone expects it. But when light goes bad, ironically no one sees it coming." Also, a world without darkness would be a white void, specifically the one from Paper Mario.
@@kylestubbs8867 Aside from the Number 2 entry (who's biggest problem was so glaring even Josh himself brought it up on this very list), I really liked it
Most Developers when they make a mistake: Never doing that again people hated it. Players: Don't drop it, refine it to perfection. Yokotaru: I shall take what I have learned and refine my idea to perfection. Players: Gives a thumbs up.
Speaking of...I can't hate Ghetsis, much for the same reason I Josh can't hate Solas: He's pretty much the first team leader since Giovanni to actually have some gravitas behind him, and his absolute pure evil and disdain for everyone and everything that isn't him-even his own 'son'-is a joy to take down a few notches. Can you honestly think of someone more unrepentendly evil in the entire franchise?
It is a weird thing, when you feel for a character you are told to despise. You are right about it not being very common, most of the time the person writing has to have enough talent to make a likable character while lacking the self awareness to realize that they made that character more sympathetic then they intended. That uncanny valley is very hard to actually get because most of the time bad writers simply imitate what they see successful writers do, resulting in characters that are flat and hard to relate to. It's rare to find that writer that is just competent enough to make a character unintentionally sympathetic, and that makes it more painful to see in writing.
Caim's unintentional sympathetic factors are ramped up to eleven in the sequel, and he's technically an antagonist in that one, what with seeking to undo the seals he once tried to protect. However, you can't really blame him; the one being he came to trust unconditionally - maybe even love - is in constant pain due to acting as the new seal for the world and Caim feels all of it because of their pact. The new governing body, the Knights of the Seal, strengthened the seal without consulting him, increasing both his and Angelus' suffering while also necessitating human sacrifices to keep these new seals in check. Those human sacrifices, you ask? Former soldiers of the Empire from Drakengard 1 who were brainwashed to serve its cause. The leader of the Knights of the Seal, Gismor, is himself a former Empire soldier yet feels no remorse in committing similar acts of cruelty on his own countrymen. Seeing as how the winning side of 1's story ended, it's no wonder Caim restarted his slaughterfest wholesale; everybody's either an asshole or an unwitting pawn who will bring forth the same exact conclusion in any case.
That is yet another reason why Caim is sympathetic: He is suppossed to be an asshole, but the problem is *everyone else is also an asshole!* And unfortunatelly Caim does have logical reasons to act the way he does. (First game, he is a soldier fighting a war were everyone is trying to kill him. In the Sequel, Angelus gets in a Fate Worse than Death, and the people behind the Seal are only making her suffering worse, so he has every right to try to free her from that torment.)
Here’s another opposite suggestion Ten characters you LOVE to hate Basically characters you hate, but since their meant to be hated, you feel every satisfaction of hating them
First character that popped into my head but likely won't be on the actual list: Moneybags. Oh sure, in Hero's Tail he's a perfectly fine shopkeep, even if a bit greedy. Spyro 2 though, he knowingly stops you from helping save _his own realm_ just because he loves money... and then hinders you _again_ in Spyro 3, ending with the intent to _sell a Dragon Egg!_ Of course, in both cases he gets justly beat up and all that treasure goes back to you anyway, with the second case allowing _you_ to be the one dishing out the punishment.
Ghetsis, hands-down. (Before anyone says something like "What about Blue or Giovanni?", I have these to say - Blue was a flat satellite character who only existed for Red's sake, and Giovanni was very static and boring.)
So glad my boy Eraqus is getting the love he deserves! There's a certain complexity to him that I can't help but WANT to be explored: someone who WAS Light Is Not Good - for reasons that one can't help but understand - but realizes his mistakes and flaws that one would not expect from him. Wonder if he could get his own game...
@@Yojimbo16 Probably for trying to kill Ven. And killing Terra just for defending Ven. Personally I get annoyed by him blaming darkness for his own poor judgement.
I don't think Kokichi would really fit this list, as it's revealed that he secretly hated the killing game so he pretended to be the mastermind of the game just to have himself killed in order to create a case not even monokuma could figure out, thus shutting down the killing game
@@WolfRider2002 Could still count so long as the cast and story still treat his actions as reprehensible. More so if with his actions unrelated to the final case.
I feel like you are supposed to be sympathetic for Rhea, Edelgard, Demitri , and Claude. Honestly three houses is one of the few games that properly does grey vs grey well.
Yeah aside from TWSITD and some others (cough the fathers of Bernadetta and Jeritza), there's no real bad guy in the game, and regardless of the route you pick, there will be losers who deserved better such as Edelgard and Dimitri outside of their routes.
Despite all that she did, I just couldn't come to hate, or even dislike, Rhea. The only character in the game that was probably supposed to be sympathetic that I downright hated was Gilbert.
@@KeeperOfUntoldDreams For me, I was fully on board with dethroning Rhea when she ordered me to execute Edelgard, and when my response was “Whoa, let’s slow down and talk this out first” (because I’m not about to execute one of my own students, that completely goes against my role as a teacher) she freaks out and turns into a fucking dragon to attack me.
Well, the real tragedy i find in THree houses is taht...you really wish you could save everyoen, you really do, but that won't happen, wich leaves with a burning hatred towards TWSITD, the monsters who had caused many off the troubles and are the reason everything went wrong.
Yep. Whenever I felt like dealing with him anyway. He just seemed like such an asshole, so I dumped his ass the moment I didn't need him anymore. Why do I need him when I have Dorian?
Having only seen a playthrough of Until Dawn, I remember the person playing had absolutely no patience for any of Josh's behavior. And I just remember finding that... really disturbing, honestly.
Same, I remember watching some let's player that was so harsh on Josh and I felt so bad. After they got the mental breakdown part with his hallucinations they still seemed to hate him and were so mean but I watched so many play through of that game I don't remember quite who they were.
Unfortunately this is because his actions, from what I know of them, are completely unacceptable. This isn't a justification of what led him to that point, but a simple truth that too many people ignore to the detriment of individuals currently dealing with such problems. That they are problems, and these problems force them to remove themselves from society or be trampled by it. They cannot conform, and thusly need someone to help them do so. Constant help, medication, all dependent on the intensity of the mental health issue afflicting them. These people are not contributors to the world, they actively hinder it, and in a worse one would be killed the moment symptoms started showing. Just give thanks that people are willing to sacrifice their entire lives helping their loved ones even have a chance at a normal life, and hope that you never have to.
Unfortunately for the #3 entry...you have to blame a stupid book for causing everything, because 1 man saw into the future, wrote everything down, and if anyone acts out of line and tries to change the future, they'll just stick you in a prison because you "acted out of line"
Thank you for bringing attention to the fact that Caim is NOT a complete and utter psychopath but has every reason to commit every murder he did. *The bells. The bells of the end.*
Is Edelgard supposed to be hated though? I see her as a character you're supposed to come to your own conclusion about. Being dead centre on the fence of hero and villain. That being said even if you chose her house she still tries to backstab you once before you get to side with her and spitting in the face of my loyalty is a good way to never get it back.
Also can we talk about how she wants to genocide the dragons (a race that already got genocided for their blood and body parts just for steroids and weapons) for a minute? Not just Rhea, but literally all the Nabateans just for being "Children of the Goddess" and therefore "you must never have any authority or contact with humans ever again because humans should only listen to themselves and I hate Sothis" to the point Linhardt has to protect Indech from her by keeping the fact he's going to the lake a secret and she actively celebrates their extermination at the end of the game? That's a yikes from me.
@@Ramsey276one I should probably put the incarnation of malice, and the epitome of self loathing, in Solas. I was talking about smt Lucifer, Snow and Caem, btw.
I have to mention a overlooked part that people keep missing. Edelgard really didn't want to side with them but she knew that her ideals would be impossible without them. This is mentioned by Hubert before storming the great bridge of Myrdin that she did oppose the idea at first before finally deciding to give in. It was a painful choice because Thales and his cronies was responsible for crimes such as the experiments to infuse crests in to a person at the cost of a reduced lifespan in the imperial palace and house ordelia, experiments that turned humans into demonic beasts, turning the nabataeans in weapons, the insurrection of seven, having a "advisor" named pan manipulate Loog into making the kingdom, kidnapping Flayn to harvest her blood, killing Jeralt, Tomas, Monica, manipulating Nemesis to kill the nabataeans, depending on the route, corrupting Rhea's crest stone to turn her into a rampaging beast or reviving Nemesis and his allies, the remire calamity that made the villagers violent killers, all for their selfish gains. It was hard for her to choose whether to side with them or not. She also started the war because she wanted to have a conversation on more equal terms but her shortened life span meant she wouldn't live long enough to see it through. In the blue lions route she even turns herself into a monster out desperation just to see her goals because she became a ice queen. All of this happens because without Byleth she's merely a puppet used by those who slither in the dark. The support conversations that reference her past along with her support conversations with other characters lead to why she is going down that bloody path to the future that she and Claude seem to try and make a reality. This also hinted with her critical hit phrase don't waste my time. While it does sound cool, if you take the time to look into her character you understand the more tragic reason why she says it. These reasons make me understand why she is taking a shorter bloody path with all those sacrifices. I don't intend to criticize you but rather tell you a few facts you overlooked to help explain why she follows this path.
Plus, it helps that Edelgard already knows that TWSITD is evil and needs to be eliminated. And I think her allying with them temporarily is understandable considering how powerful the Church of Seiros and Rhea are.
@@sjk8495 Which is that Rhea is...mostly,if not COMPLETELY unreasonable.Seriously,if she and Edelgard had a civil discussion about the issue,we might have some form of golden route.Of course,that means Dimitri and Claude also have to be on board,which of course they are,and that would mean taking the fight to TWSITD. ...but this isn't Fates,where a Golden Route is needed,this is Three Houses,where every route is different and varied.
there is also the fact that she has hubert by her side, who enabled her actions and serves as her personal echo chamber. if you poach all possible black eagle students, he will be the only one she has left. everyone needs someone who is willing to speak against them to truly improve. ferdinand serves that role to her, but huberts guidance might overrule him, and, while difficult, you can still convert him to your side
I never learned what Flayn’s deal was, I only managed to exploit her ai to lock her into an indefinite 1v1 combat loop with Caspar so I didn’t have to kill her in the time it took me to negotiate with Seteth. The result being letting him and Flayn retreat from the battlefield and withdraw from the war entirely and I never saw or heard of them again.
Honestly, slaying her as the final boss of the Blue Lions route, and just seeing her pass on the Golden Deer route… just cause carnage happens within Fire Emblem inevitably are one thing, but siding against her in her own route, the Black Eagles? Yeah, this is why I chose the Crimson Flower over the Silver Snow ending (and on that note, I really have no intent on doing SS’s ending) - I literally could NOT bring myself to kill someone who was my student from the get go, even if it’s only of ONE playthrough. And besides, I never really cared to bond with the Chruch of Serios members (besides Rhea of course) anyway.
I feel like Edelgard shouldn't really qualify. She's not supposed to be liked, but she's not necessarily supposed to be disliked either. The whole thing with Three Houses is how there's more than one perspective on conflict and how multiple people with good intentions can end up conflicting with one another. Edelgard in particular is very Lelouch-esque, where she has unmistakably good intentions, but the issue is whether or not her actions are justified by her motive, and the game doesn't really give you a concrete yes or no answer to that. Sure, she's quite literally demonized in one route, but only the one where you're sided with Dimitri, who wants nothing more than revenge against her.
@@maverickdarkrath4780 ??? Idk where people keep getting this from but Edelgard *never* wanted to genocide the Nabateans. Nemesis was the one who almost did, and Edelgard only opposes them due to them being her enemy and basically being lizard people controlling the largest institution in Fódlan. Hell, in her own route you can spare Seteth and Flayn if Byleth defeats them, and she gives Rhea the option to surrender before she decides to torch a city, which definitely goes against the whole notion of her wanting genocide.
@@amirgarcia547 I just wish Edelgard fans would stop acting like "Ooga booga Rhea bad Edelgard good ooga booga" already. Not all fans, I know, but come on... I also have suspicions that part of the Rhea hate comes from this wave of modern hate boners for religion these days...
@@ramenbomberdeluxe4958 i dislike religion, so i definitely sympathize more with edelgard. when i played the game blind, and i was forced to choose between who to follow, i picked edelgard because rhea got on my wrong side with every action she made. namely, hiding behind religion to justify her actions and never taking responsibility. edelgard, on the other hand, knows well that she is about to do evil deeds, and does not convince herself otherwise. it certainly does not help that crimson flower, the one route where rhea is an antagonist, is overall poorly written. you only see her redeeming qualities AFTER you chose to side with her or picked claude from the start. she should have had some sympathetic moments, maybe a scene where her backstory is explained. instead, she just descends further into villainy with no regret or hesitation, ending with burning down the city that gave her shelter just to give her an advantage started to ramble there, but i have a lot to say about that topic. it essentially boils down to "jerk who admits it" and "jerk who denies it", and the denial can be in especially poor taste if you do not buy religion as an excuse
At least you're not trying to say what Edelgard did was okay. Honestly, if Rhea really wants to keep the crest system, she wouldn't endorse Hanneman's research that would ultimately set people free of the system, especially with Lysithea on his side. I know Edelgard can't 100% count on a research that doesn't yield immediate result, but considering no matter which path I pick, I can get Hanneman his good ending anyway, Edelgard's cause doesn't mean much to me lol. Hanneman deserves his own house with Lysithea as his second in command. He's the true hero of Fodlan.
Hanneman was ultimately able to overcome the physical power imbalance brought about by crests, but the social value of them wouldn't go away. Edelgard was going directly for the throat of the nobility system in order to destroy the value they placed on crests. I wouldn't say either Edelgard or Hanneman invalidated the goals of the other.
Count Shaman Honestly I think most people might be unaware that even though Edelgard thinks Rhea has institutional power, in reality she doesn't really, the Church is basically a peacekeeper organisation, the one thing Rhea does totally wrong at least for society is that she doesn't think that the printing press is important due to commoners not having basic reading ability. Rhea's faults are more about her character and morals and less that she has too much power. Rhea is more content to let humanity rule themselves with her making sure they don't destroy themselves by creating the officers academy, like she teaches that Crests give people the power to rule but if Hanneman's research replicated them I don't think she'd try to stop it.
I think you’re all kind of overlooking some things, like the fact that Rhea actively tries to stem the flow of information to keep people ignorant of what Crests really are or where they come from. Furthermore, as someone in charge of a peacekeeping organization, Rhea kind of does a terrible job at actually keeping the peace. Even before Edelgard starts her war, Fodlan is RIFE with internal conflict, and even the different branches of the church itself start to fight among themselves.
Gold Wade That's a flaw but an understandable one, you aren't exactly gonna want to spread around that Crests are from Dragons and you can get a Crest by killing a Dragon (example being Rhea), she changes the truth so that she and the other surviving Dragons are less likely to be killed for Crest power. Bandit attacks are kind of common in all FE timelines even in moderate peacetime like the beginning of Awakening, so I can't really hold that against her otherwise every FE Lord is guilty, the Church is being manipulated by TWSID, you can't have them be sussed out as then you lose out on the actual story, finally the internal conflict is basically all humans, Rhea allows them to govern themselves, she would just step in if one were to say declare war on the other two.
Jigsaw, that's the word that describes Josh in a nutshell, as that's what Josh reminds me of, he had no outright desire to kill his friends for what they did, he simply wanted them to face their mistakes and let them feel the terror that they caused. and one thing that derives this belief of mine is you can keep any of the characters from being killed in a run, if Josh had blatant intent on killing everyone, he sure as hell could've done so.
The joke you used to introduce your number 5 cracks me up. I sometimes wonder if they intend them to be some we hate very much, but get surprised when we actually do care for them, or even agree with what's being said.
Zero from Drakengard 3 isn't a villain protagonist. When you get to route D you learn that literally every kill she made is 100% justified and for saving the world. It's supposed to be a reverse of Drakengard 1 where at first you think Caim is a righteous noble hero only to find out he's a murderous psychopathy, while in Drakengard 3 you first think Zero is a selfish evil villain only to find out she's the selfless good guy.
Yeah her actions amount to kill people to save the world and the soldiers she kills are also justified since they are brainwashed and once someone gets addicted to the song they turn into monsters when they stop hearing it. Seriously the only arguably unjustified kill was the narrator of the opening scene (since he was a civillian)
I disagree but only a little. Zero is certainly not a selfless good guy and Caim isn't entirely evil either (at least, not yet). Zero (Back before the flower happened) already murdered innocent people for various reasons. Sure she was horribly abused but once she was free of that situation, she *chose* to kill and steal and hate everything. That's why the Flower chose her to begin with. And when she later on decided 'this world is horrible but it doesn't deserve to end' and decided to stop the Flower, THEN we actually get into Drakengard. As for Caim, he *does* have feelings. Angelus comments on them pretty often. He mourns for her, he's sad about Inuart, he's confused and angry at Furiae. But most of all, he's been *born* into a war, and its all he knows. He's not a good person by any means, but he's also actively working towards a resolution that would, in theory, be better for everybody involved. At NO point are you supposed to think Caim is a good guy, he starts as a murderer and he ends as a murderer, its just we get to see the things he does and the judgements he makes. That being said, Zero is a much better character study lol, but there's something to be said that people still feel like Caim is in the right, even if you disagree with the actions. He's still better written than many other characters.
Here's a couple of things I wanted to bring up in your favor on your Number 1 spot, Josh: (Spoilers for anyone who hasn't gotten that far yet!) . . . . . . . - As confirmed by the second game (more specifically, in several of the weapon stories) Caim is implied to be suffering from severe untreated mental illness; if some of the stories are accurate, he's had trouble relating and feeling empathy to others even as a kid. This ties into the next few points: - He's a former noble, from a rather well-off kingdom; in real life, plenty of noble children and such were not raised the best, and became spoiled as a result. Granted, it's entirely possible that his parents were good ones, and he was noted to have been a good child to them and loved them dearly, but it's still a possibility. - He watched his parents get murdered right in front of him when he was a kid; more specifically, they were eaten by a dragon, which you can actually see, partially, in the video. That would not bode well for anyone's sanity, especially a child. - Tying directly into the above; as a result of his parents' death, he and his sister had to spend an extended period of time on the run, homeless; again, losing your family, your home, all the wealth and comfort you had, and the entire life that you were able to live to a psychotic death cult empire would not be good for someone's sanity. - After all of that above, he's been pretty much fighting the Empire since he was a child; by the events of the game, he's only about 24 years old. Being a former child soldier himself, of course he's not going to show mercy to the child soldiers the Empire was using; in his messed-up viewpoint, he probably doesn't really regard them as any different as any other Empire soldier. - Not to mention, he's the only guy that really seems to be competent in fighting the Empire, and he has to take care of his sister, the Guardian of the Seal. That amount of pressure + already fragile sanity = psychotic breakdown.
Even if he didn't make the list, I'm kinda glad Maruki from P5R was shown at the start as he's the character that to me embodies what this list is about. I absolutely could not like someone who essentially takes away the free will of everyone, but when you see his back story and what he does with that power to rewrite reality, I know there is part of me who would be tempted to side with him
The only person’s free will he takes is Akechi (and fuck that guy). What he overwhelmingly does is make the world a utopia. People ARE happier in his world. The only reason the Phantom Thieves don’t like the new world is because it’s not quote-unquote “real” (even though reality is just a matter of perception). That and they want to “earn” their achievements. Fuck off with that. If people get what they want and no-one is harmed then who care if it isn’t “deserved”. Lastly, they make a big deal about people not “growing” in Maruki’s world and...so what? Growth is good because it lets people deal with the injustices of the world. Without injustices, there’s no need to grow. The only time Maruki started to lose me is when he’s like “you’re right that it’s better for people’s growth when they can face their own problems”. I was like “how is that relevant?”.
Well, Maruki is one off the most complicated characters i saw in Persona 5. And a huge contrast to the madmen who were the palace owners. At first i admit i would agree in part with what he presents and deep down, i would want everyone to not go trough those pains that many were hurt....to paraphrase from one off my favourite shows "No one gets hurt..or lost" But there is a sad reality. Nothing can be done without a cost. There are thigns taht show than while hsi intentions were good, not everyone would necessarily agree with the imposing, and one off the key factors in opossing him?...im still giong to be vague with some details but, one off the solutions he has for one off the characters who ahd suffered a heavy pain..well, ill just say that this i not the way to help that character's pain.
@@lsebastian9086I see Maruki is a much more well executed Sybok from Star Trek V right down to his sinister benevolence and Joker responding against his removal of sadness.
I was honestly expecting something a little more comical, where the creators attempted to make a character unlikeable, but did so in a way that made the character into a comic relief. Miu Iruma, for instance; she was created to be unsympathetic, rude, and extremely vulgar (basically, another version of Hiyoko Saionji), but the end result was one of the funniest characters in the series, especially when she interacts with Kokichi Oma. But, the sympathetic route works, too.
Pretty sure I saw in an interview that the entire development origin of her is that one of the creators wanted to make the least likable character possible.
@@i8dacookies55 I think they succeeded with Sayonji personally for me at least. Im not sure why though. Sayonji to me just felt like a bully. Her treatment and abuse of mikan felt too far at points, it felt like she was specifically targeting someone weak. (Her treatment of small animals makes it seem like she picks on those weaker than her). Yeah she had SOME good and a bit of development hidden under all that filth, but it was marginal at best to me. Miu was rude to everyone, It made her seem kind of less like a bully and more of an idiot...at least to me, I dont know how to explain it. And Mius insults felt more...comedic, so it made her entertaining unlike Sayonji. And with Miu her hidden submissive side gave her some form of consequence.
@@revolvingworld2676 I actually really like Hiyoko and dislike Miu. Hiyoko was rude to everyone and makes fun of them in an almost accurate way most of the time, the only reason Mikan gets most of the flak is because she kind of asks for it (with the falling and constantly crying and it's hinted that Mikan might intentionally do those things, I'm not blaming her but she has a lot of issues herself). Miu on the other hand, her insults are usually not even close to true and way too sexual for my tastes, plus she's really creepy in her free time events, it makes her even ten times worse. I also don't like the submissive side personally, if you're going to be a bitch own it. But I know I'm in the minority on this one, a lot of people like Miu more than Hiyoko, and she does contribute more to the story than Hiyoko.
I wasn't expecting that at number 1: I loved the Drakengard games, Caim and Zero are my favorite anti-heroes in particular, and i really like their relationships with their dragons at the end It just makes me wish for a remaster of those 3 games, even though 2 is probably the..."safest" of the trilogy.
SO I THOUGHT YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. In a group I'm in, someone once tweeted at Yoko Taro 'Sooo, would Caim and Angelus make love, or would they just fuck?' and Yoko Taro said 'They fuck.' Just plain n' simple.Not 'they would' fuck. Just an affirmation of the action. SO. THERES A TIDBIT OF EXTRA DRAKENGARD KNOWLEDGE.
@@sarafontanini7051 If you ignore the story, it's not a terrible game and it does improve a few things over DK1: the combat is better, so is magic, you use multiple characters with their own weapons (which is better than 1, where they're just temporary summons), maps are smaller but more detailed this time (because let's be honest, DK1 maps were big but extremely void of details), movement is less stiff, dragon fights are more fast paced, and overall it wasn't so bad as people make it out to be. I haven't played that game in at least 15 years so memory is very foggy, but worst game ever? Absolutely not. But it is the most forgettable of the DK trilogy for sure. It would require some rework to make it tie to nier and even then I don't think we need it.
About Anakin: Palpatine started planting seeds of doubt in his mind since the day he arrived at the Jedi temple. Also, he knew that what Anakin needed was a parental figure, like what Qui-gon would have been if he became Anakin’s master, so Palpatine used that to his advantage
Plus he never really got over Shmi's death. I can make a director parallel between Anakin's fall and the five stages of grief. Palpatine know about the incident as established in Episode III and he knew when Anakin would be at the bargaining stage where he made his offer to him.
Let’s just say that the Jedi are at fault for this as well because they believe a boy whose been a slave his entire life, who never won a pod race because the whole thing was rigged and never experienced a life of freedom, is basically the chosen one who will bring balance to the Force. I thought it was a Grey Jedi’s job to bring balance to the Force.
I think Eraqus is defensible because of his experience. Aqua doesn't have that excuse when she goes to try to murder the Tremaines, right as she might have been about that, but, at the moment, they weren't doing anything she needed to intervene against at that moment. She wasn't aware that they were domestically abusing Cinderella, but that wouldn't have been something she could use against them in the first place. Yes, Fairy Godmother goes on about the balance thing, but let's be honest, she was just trying to stop Aqua from being a Knight Templar In general, of the three, Aqua held the idiot ball the most when she was the one who should've been holding it the least. It's kind of why she's my least favorite of the three female protagonists, especially by III when it shows she's learned nothing. Not having her views towards the darkness challenged by everything about Riku nor her "I need to do this by myself coz I'm the big girl Master" and promptly getting her ass handed to her by Ansem and Vanitas. Eraqus at least has personal experience to justify his disdain for the darkness, because he has the literal scars from being hurt by it. III could've been an opportunity to show that they were wrong about darkness with regards to Terra and especially Riku, while still damning Xehanort's use of it. Oh well.
I think Tohru Adachi from P4 would've fit this list well. Most other murder mystery stories have the main villain be a psychotic lunatic or a misunderstood, philosophical who went down the wrong path. But Adachi isn't any of those, he's normal, and somewhat relatable. He's lonely, stuck in a job and town he hates, studied his whole life just to get stuck in the boonies for one mistake. It's no wonder he snapped and resorted to murder. He cares for no one cause he has no one, he hates the world cause in his eyes the world hates him, he is the antithesis to the message of persona which is to make friends and enjoy life. Most importantly he's a cautionary tale about what loneliness and isolation can cause, complete apathy and nihilism. It's like the old phrase "A child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel it's warmth."
Fun fact, Hayden Christiansen, the dude behind Anakin Skywalker himself, actually said that that scream of "No" was a suit malfunction to dub over his Blood-curdling scream of pure agony
Considering UA-cam won't let him go ham hands on the character and the man that brought that Freak into video game creation, he can only say what he can record. Other than that, That Game is forever Druckmann edition instead of a proper Number 2. P.S. Firing someone because they're not "woke", as stupid as that context is, SHOULD be classified as a hate crime. Period!
from the same game, we could also include chroms father. he is hated among the population for his singleminded crusade against the grimleal, to the point that some of the hate bled on to emmeryn once she took the throne. no one has anything nice to say about him. however, from what we see of the grimleal, is it really that wrong to want them gone?
That #1 segment was really fascinating. Good work, Josh. Now, the only logical conclusion for these two videos is to make Top 10 Characters You Were Supposed to have Strong Feelings for (Like/Hate), but Left No Impression Whatsoever. It's a long title, but I'm sure you can trim it down.
One honorable mention that comes to my mind is Flowey from Undertale. He's not likeable, but he's hard to hate when you look into his character. Each of the routes paints him in a different light. In the Neutral Route, he starts off as the antagonist and goes to extreme lengths to get what he wants all for the sake of his own entertainment, even tempting you to kill him towards the end. But then you get to the True Pacifist and Genocide Runs. Prior to True Pacifist, he lets you try to get a better ending...until he does a full heel-turn and manages to steal every Soul in the Underground and assumes his ultimate form. But as the fight progresses, we learn that he only wanted to see his old friend again (which opens up its own can of worms) and after coming to terms with his friend's passing, breaks the barrier using the power of every Soul in the Underground along with the Human Souls (it's mentioned that it would take the souls of every monster in the Underground to match the power of just one Human Soul, which is how the barrier is broken) and returns them all to their rightful owners. In the Genocide Run, we learn of Flowey's backstory from his perspective. He was accidentally brought back to life due to Alphys's experiment and was unhappy with his new life. He tried to commit suicide before getting cold feet and wanting to stay alive...and due to the Determination Alphys gave him and therefore his determination to not die, Flowey had the power to reset the timeline akin to our Save Files. As such, he played around with this power and went on his own Neutral, Genocide, and Pacifist Runs...because he just had to know what would happen if he did. He got bored of it and wanted to do something about it...and that's when we show up, and when he finds out that he can't reset the timeline anymore, so he decides to manipulate and frighten you for his own amusement. Regardless of whatever actions you take in Undertale, Flowey is less hateable when you really look into him. Everything he did and does in the game...is no different than what we do. He did everything he did...because he wanted to know what would happen.
Master Xehanort doesn't claim to hate the darkness, or at least he doesn't deny his malicious use of it. He specifically says the world needed someone strong to prevent the pollution of darkness from corrupting the world further. Basically, his ultimate goal was to rewrite the world to realign the balance of light and darkness, he needed darkness to do it and he didn't believe anyone else was capable of doing this without failing partway. In other words, his every evil deed throughout the series was for the greater good, at least from his perspective. Darkness was a means to an end to him; something that necessitated his self-appointed role as a villain in order to achieve his aims. He saw his actions as making every necessary sacrifice to achieve the power needed to fix a world that he viewed as broken, and the game doesn't necessarily endorse this viewpoint. Sora more or less tells him that even if Xehanort were right about what the world needs, he's not the right person to do it because of what he's done.
Honestly, this. The sad thing is you need to dive deep into the lore, considering it's the reports that give this image of Xehanort early. Take those reports away, and what do you have?
@@BleachMeister Bad writing. Kingdom Hearts III was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I'll periodically check in to see if anything improves (so far, it hasn't. Melody of Memory was stupid, in my opinion), but until then, I'm kind of done with the series. To me, the only games in the series are KH1, CoM, Days, and KHII.
It also should be noted that Xehanort was over 80 years old when he decided that "He had no other choice but to reset the universe to remove Darkness from equation once and for all" meaning: - he lost faith that anyone except for him can change anything - and it does not matter whether he kills one or million, betrays friends and family - he already decided that he is ENDING THE WHOLE MULTIVERSE... Because it is doomed either way. Why it is doomed EITHER WAY? Because guess what Xehanort was doing all this 65+ years after he realised that balance of light and darkness is slipping and they are about to have ANOTHER event where too much light were gathered and darkness went Berserk and swallowed worlds... Only this time there is a possibility that miracle of children's dream preserving bits of light might not happen and everyone WILL DIE. And worst of all NO ONE believes or helps Xehanort to preserve balance - while Eraqus keeps spreading light like an idiot, molding his pupils in his "PURGE ALL DARKNESS" ways. And mind you Xehanort TRIED for 65+ years to find a more peaceful solution (seriously good reputation isn't created over one day) - his desperation is what drove him into this madness... And you know what is most hilarious thing? It feels like whether he wins or loses in the end of KH3 was a good resolution for him either way. - he wins - remake the universe, remove Darkness threat once and for all, put Keyblade to your temple, pull the trigger. - he lost - and he still won... As all his actions lead to an enormous balance offset towards Darkness keeping equilibrium for years to come and EVERYONE without noticing accepted his teachings of preserving balance... Even old Keyblade Masters like Mickey... With Riku being shining example of Keyblade Master using both Light and Darkness. Why he even passes X-blade to Sora? Because he reminds him of dull and ordinary boy that left the islands and for many years tried to protect the multiverse... Which now stands here old and tired of his unending fight hoping that this one before him will prove him wrong and will not repeat his mistakes... Isn't it ironic that ultimately Xehanort's actions made him succeed in what he deemed impossible in his years before BBS preserve the balance and leave a good legacy he always wanted to leave?
@@Ghostel3591 I just see that all as both character assassination and another retcon just for the sake of it. Xehanort hating darkness definitely feels forced after he spent the whole series practically giving it a massive blowjob in every single speech of his. "All worlds begin in darkness, and all so end. The heart is no different. Darkness sprouts within it, it grows, and consumes it. Such is its nature. In the end, every heart returns to the darkness from whence it came. For, you see, darkness is the heart's true essence." "So you have come this far, and still you understand nothing. Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!" "Behold the endless abyss! Within it lies the heart of all worlds: Kingdom Hearts! Look as hard as you are able. You'll find not even the smallest glimmer of light. From those dark depths are all hearts born. Even yours." "Darkness conquers all worlds!" "Let's see what your 'precious' light can do."
Spoilers for Fire Emblem Three Houses below Probably the one major thing about Edelgard that I’d like to point out here that wasn’t mentioned (and I think is either overshadowed or misinterpreted) is the bit about how Edelgard still chose to work with Those That Slither In The Dark should you choose to go against her via betraying her and siding with the Church of Seiros or you chose to teach another house in pre time skip. I started (and currently still) playing Verdant Wind, but in the final pre time skip chapter, which was defending Garreg Mach, I decided to have Byleth go against her, and she commented on how she wished Byleth sided with her in the beginning because of how unique their position is, lore wise, logic wise, and gameplay wise. Since Byleth had great potential and was once a fierce mercenary, they were someone who anyone would have liked to gain as a valuable ally. Edelgard basically confirms that Byleth is a very influential individual who can affect the outcome of one’s future. The only reason why she still chose to work with the people behind the whole reason her siblings are dead and why there was a huge disconnect between Adrestria and the Church of Seiros is because she felt she had no other choice. Those That Slither In The Dark are very corrupt, maniacal, sadistic people who have enough power to take down big name power houses and nobles alike and strip them away of their own influence over people in a whim. The idea of working with those same people who caused her family to suffer losses for the sake of “research” was possibly appalling to her, but because she didn’t see any other way of gaining the power and influence she needed to shape her ideal world where crests and social status bear no influence on one’s potential, she felt she had no other choice but to continue working with them. She technically had the choice to not work with them for much longer on her own, but then there was the idea that the figurative snake people she had to cooperate with could dispose of her and everything she wished to protect the moment she became a threat to them and showed signs of betrayal. It was either going against the Church of Seiros just because Rhea was sort of (and may be) hypocritical about her stance on who is deemed evil and how crests are valued so much when there’s people in the church itself like Seteth who actually have the same opinion on how crests shouldn’t define a person’s worth or it meant that everything she worked for to build a future where nobody’s value is determined by what they’re born as is destroyed and costing her own life as well as her remaining loved ones. The only one who has enough power to rival that of the snake people would be Byleth themselves, and Byleth siding with Edelgard actually allows Edelgard to cut ties with the snake people without risking all that she loved dear, since now she can focus on what really mattered to her, which was protecting those who needed it. In the post time skip of the Blue Lions Route, Azure Moon, Dimitri calls her out on this viewpoint and even outright says that the path she was trying to carve out wasn’t a one size fits all solution, as it had loads of bloodshed involved. However, I’d like to believe that had Edelgard been in a position to be able to cut ties without risk with those she hated outside of her own route, she would have. Continuing to worth for the villains without any other alternatives has also muddied or even erased her original reason for doing what she did back then, so much so that she also became corrupted in the process, which is what ultimately leads to her downfall in the pathways outside of Crimson Flower. That’s something I just brought up because I thought it was also important to consider, but great list anyways, Josh! Also, not to toot the bigger horns, but uh #FearTheDeer
7 Also, his ending has people actually survive. Side with the other bois, everyone dies and they start from scratch, side ya boi and there is hope for a better future, down a corridor of darkness
which would be nice if ... say someone used it for good ... BY SOMEONE (cough cough Riku after KH:CoM)- or a better one Judge frodo (KH:DDD) was consumed by LIGHT not darkness showing that someone whose on a justice bloodlust can be just as destructive if not left unchecked as someone who kills for the sake of killing - either one of those would show that there *is* a balance and getting consumed by either is a bad thing or ther is a right way and a wrong way to use either - it's just that darkness tends to be used wrong and light tends to (at least in the games) be used correctly but there *IS* a wrong way to use it
He’s one of the best characters in the game. He’s at least TRYING to do good. Usually failing but he DOES own up to his mistakes with hope (who I also like because, let’s be honest, you’d act in a very similar way if you were put in the situation[s] he was).
@@ArcCaravan Dr. Maruki from p5 Royal. He's such a good guy and genuinely cares about everyone, And has his relatable moments and some good points in why he does what he does. And while his actions you can't really agree with, You don't find yourself hating him for it, Just feeling bad for him and sorrowful at the fact you have to fight him to get your old reality back. And you're supposed to feel that way.
@@kylestubbs8867 Seemed like Josh loved the obvious jerk having his worst traits foreshadow him as a true villain. Looked like it caught him off guard.
I really liked Solas. His jerkass demeanor was a good thorn in my Inquisitor's side- keeping my behavior checked in some ways as the rest of the world started treating me like Second Jesus
Uh... Josh? I think you forgot something covered in KH 2. Namely, that they bring up that it's not that Darkness is inherently evil, *it's that evil people gravitate towards it.* It's a question of a tool being used by evil people. It's a quick but risky path to power but it isn't inherently bad. Riku basically stands as a huge middle finger to the idea that it can only be used by villains and shows that the good guys can use it as well. This isn't to say you're wrong on Erquas, he certainly had reason to be paranoid (as, by the end of hte day, darkness is still dangerous), he just ends up showing that Light isn't perfect either. And really, at this point, everything just falls into place because timey wimey stuff. Also, on the Tubba Blubba thing, Bow DOES say 'yeah, I'm gonna get the boos to stop picking on him. It was fun while it lasted though'. Just to be fair.
With Edelgard, I liked her philosophy and not her methods. There is actually a video that compares her and Rhea and how she will always lose as she falls in the same traps as Rhea. Also I'm with Ari. Dimitri is best boi.
I want to add a note about Solas. Romancing him and then encountering him in Trespasser makes that scene more emotional charged and gives him this really bittersweet moment of, you can tell he really wants the romance to go further but he feels duty bound to "fix" his mistake.
Someone actually did a fanart of Caim and Chara being the same character with Angelus playing the part of Sans before getting board and going to get something to eat.
Franziska von Karma from the Ace Attorney series. She’s every bit as arrogant and condescending as her father and just as apt to use dirty tactics to win such as withholding case breaking facts and submitting illegal evidence just to win when you first meet her. Worse still, instead of being able to command the course of the trial with just her words and the snap of her fingers like her father, she uses a whip when she doesn’t get her way, and she’ll use it on literally anyone. Even in the games that come after where you have to work with her on occasion, very little of this behavior changes. And why is she like this? Because of a one-sided surrogate sibling rivalry with Edgeworth. So why do I care so much about what she’s doing eight years later?
@@ArcCaravan It really is as petty as it sounds. Once I typed all that out, the more I thought about it, the more the term “spoiled brat” seemed to fit her character. And yet, somehow, there’s some kind on indearing element to it that I don’t understand that makes me curious as to what she’s been up to during the time skip.
so i actually laughed out loud when your list of satan's different names broke directly into an H and R block commercial that starts out by saying the name of the company XD
The story of Caim seems like a game of Dungeons and Dragons where the DM is intentionally shoe-horning the party's paladin into a situation to make the paladin lose his powers because the DM things it'll be a neat plot point.
I have to agree with Arvis, the fact that he killed Sigurd and used a memory spell on Deirdre to erase everything is a red flag, but then she decided to have two children, Julia and Julius, thanks to Arvis, that's when I really draw the line. I would have easily hated Arvis for these actions if not more, but then he slowly tried to redeem himself by helping Ishtar take the children that she captured to safety because of his son, Julius, was slowly losing himself and becoming the vessel to the dark dragon Loptous. I still won't forgive him for what he did in the past.
@@WrathNebula321 well considering this story is supposed to be made with story in focus... and Genealogy is touted as one of the best stories I think it became part of their view into making a story, and if you look at it Edelgard is similar to Arvis, as Arvis was blackmailed due to his heritage and if it came out the emperor had loptyr blood it would cause a revolt and likely his death. Edelgards was built fully on tradegy and planning from the TWISTD
While I didn't hate him, I was honestly disappointed with his ending, of the three house leader romances, his was the only one that didn't give me any satisfaction.
To be fair, Claude only kills if he knows for certain that someone’s a threat; he prefers to observe and gather intel before deciding whether on not to take action. If you have Claude confront Dimitri at the Battle of Gronder, he only resorts to attacking the prince after realizing that Dimitri is too far gone to listen to reason.
@@Cure_Hana To be fair, except for the crazy dimitri section in blue moon, every house only kills those who are a threat to their plans or themselves And besides, I find it funny that you mention the battle of gronder, because dimitri is the one who tries to send a message to claude before the battle in his route (the messenger gets killed, so it fails), while claude just charges into battle without any attempt of communication XD Anyway, the original comment it was just a mention about how claude is the one that kills more factions in his route and is the only one who doesn't get his objective , nothing more
_Sees the Dangaronpa Style intro_ You had my interest, now you have my attention.. time for my to pull my stick for Oscar's lists and give my thought on your picks Joshy-boy. 10: Fantasy Darth Vader but done better? Nice. 9: What would you do survive a Robot bear army? 8: Everyone is the hero of their story, but not everyone see that story the same way. Very meh for me. 7: Paradise Lost got nothing on this guy. 6:The road to hell is path with good intentions and a new foundation and home does nothing if there is none left to use it. (Also Go Team Deer) 5: If this guy was in a comic book he'd be one of Batman's rouges. Also being a brother he get simpathy from me. 4: When Bioware gets to write well, weren't those the days. 3: The Numbers don't lie, still always awesome to see Mark Hamill 2: He really needed a hug... or to move.... I'd still give the big guy a hug. 1: Nothing like a reminder that WAR IS HELL! to spice up a top spot. See you next time Josh.
I really like the villains that don't see themselves as the villain they actually see themselves as the Hero trying to save the world in their own way unaware that their way is a lot more horrifying than the actual hero. they essentially do every evil deed thinking it's for the greater good as in as soon as they're done and they have cleanse the world of whatever they think is evil there would be peace
Man, I can't tell you how long I've been waiting to hear someone else say something nice about Snow. Honestly, that willingness to help and never-say-die attitude caused me to gravitate toward him from the outset. And seeing him accept responsibility for his actions made it all the more sweet.
A personal favorite choice of mine on this subject is ff9's Kuja. The guy is a egocentric killer and social manipulator who revels in every second of both. So to find out that he was used in the end kinda makes me feel for him.
That was because his father/creator Garland favored Zidane over him due to his ability to activate a Trance, which could be one of the few things necessary to help wipe out 90 percent of then population on Gaia in order to fuel the Iifa Tree which in turn, helps restore Terra’s Crystal. Basically, both Zidane and Kuja were nothing more than weapons, tools for Garland to use in order to help save his home planet at the cost of another planet.
Honestly though the section with Caim as someone who has played the game back in the day you realize that if you were to have the crazy elf woman with you she would have gotten a free meal of child flesh.... Yes she is particularly insane and will eat children.
In regards to Edelgard I agree with her ideals but not the way she goes about achieving them. She instigated a continent wide war that resulted in the deaths of thousands innocent people. I felt a similar relationship with her as Kenobi did with Vader. The student went rogue due to their ideals being used to manipulate them by an evil force, and then turned on the teacher and her allies to fulfill their ambitions in a destructive way.
Even if he could speak, would the child soldiers listen, it sounds as if they are in a cult situation and you know how difficult it is to get cultists to listen to actual truth and reason
@@blackliquidsorrow8249 When we are talking about child conscripts it isn't much different from a cult honestly. They were probably indoctrinated during training.
Ah yes Kaim. Best character of the Drakengard franchise! It's funny that Drakengards 2 MC is pretty much the opposite, a hated character we are supposed to like, lol.
[p5r spoilers] tbh id love to see josh analyze dr maruki, his goals and his ideals and how they were twisted and transformed into what they became. he seems to keep hinting at maruki - both in the bosses you dont want to fight list and this list as well, with him being featured in the opening. especially considering that maruki's goals are pure and just at the end of the day, its just his execution - brainwashing and essentially causing reality to stagnate - makes it fall apart. this could be bc its 2/2 where i am and im thinking about that but...
Reality “stagnating” in utopia is a good thing. There’s no need to anything to change if everything is completely ideal. And brainwashing? He makes people happy. That’s a good thing. Did you not see how happy people are in the actualisation ending? That’s the best ending.
I was hoping mister badd from neptunia victory to be here considering he, along with the other seven sages, kidnap orphaned kids, feeding them CPU crystals and turning them into small monsters, but ultimately caring for them out of a sense of guilt and responsibility. I guess you could at least consider him an honorable mention since in one chapter, he outright refuses to let his kids fight and ends up facing the cpu's alone. Hmmm. Maybe an honorable villains list is in order.
Sure snow may come across as immature but it's not like he stabbed that woman in the gut, he jsut failed to hold onto her long enough to pull her up, meanwhile Hope is screaming and carrying on and acitng like Snow intentionally killed his mom. and as you said, Snow is the ONLY one actively trying to do something about the greater problem, while Lightning's solution was just aimless, wanton murder and ignore her own sister's words and we're supposed to like HER.
Yeah I'm a fellow Black Eagle also, and to a large extent, Edelgard got my support as well. Maybe not necessarily the methods (that is a huge can of worms to discuss however), but easily the goals. And as my first Fire Emblem lord (Three Houses is my first FE game), she did not disappoint.
Nor should you. Crimson Flowers was awesome, not only because of Edelgard, but it's the route where you get to betray Rhea and later kill her. I kind of hate Rhea
I feel like you’re fundamentally misunderstanding how Drakengard is supposed to make you feel. Yoko Taro designed the game’s world to be one full of broken, insane people. Caim isn’t a lunatic to criticize the player; he’s a lunatic because in order to gleefully massacre thousands for ANY reasons, he’d have to be. The child soldiers scene is supposed to drive home that Caim has zero mercy in his heart for the Empire.
OH HECK, DID NOT SEE THE NUMBER 1 COMING...BUT I AM SO GLAD 8D I got it on my shelf and weird as the execution is, I love it too much for its creative ideas and weirdness. (setting some space down here to add more without spoiling the top of the list) ----------- I definitely can see the point on that mentioned segment for the child soldiers, but I almost feel like the Ludo-dissonance could've also been seen as intentional, cuz the general tone of the game is nothing short of 'insanity'. As each seal falls one by one and the game progresses, going from a typical hack and slash 'save this person/save the world' scenario, soldiers go mad, your own party isn't right in the head one way or another, and the world order itself just seems to dissipate into a place where old or young, human or not, no one is safe. To Caim, the final answer -be it for survival or for a rescue or any other objective- must be reached with bloodshed and slaughter, and it so happens he's good at it, it's his job, and he'll likely enjoy it or not care for what kind of opponents he faces. Just my angle of seeing it but I totally see your way as well, gameplay and some limitations of back then adding to the weird execution. There's some fun tidbits on the game's creation as well if ever you look more into it. Great list tho, keep up the good work!
Velvet from Tales of Berseria's another contender, yeah, she goes on a rampage against Artorius for murdering her brother and getting turned into a demon, but you still feel bad for her, because she was a victim of circumstance too. Even then though, she still has some traits that are likable, such as cooking, and she develops a close bond with a Malak she "kidnaps" and gives him her dead brother's name. Like I said, she's basically Lightning done right.
Not to mention the village Velvet grew up in basically sold out her older sister, who was pregnant with Arthur’s child to the Deamon Brigands just so they can save their selfish assess.
And that's not even the first case of that in the series Yen Sid is Disney spelled backwards (although Yen Sid has existed for much, much longer than Eraqus)
You know, I think Handsome Jack can still qualify for this list. Just not Borderlands 2 Handsome Jack. That’s right, I say The Pre-Sequel Jack deserves a mention here. We’re obviously supposed to hate him by the end as he’s crossed the Moral Event Horizon and become the Jack we love to hate in 2, but his earlier sociopathic actions, like killing Felicity, were necessitated by circumstance, and while he doesn’t show much in the way of empathy, welcome to Borderlands! Even the good guys are sociopaths most of the time! Jack is no worse than your average quest giver. Lilith, Roland, and Moxxie betrayed Jack without even trying to address their issues with his plan man-to-man, not to mention trying to kill his whole crew in the process, a crew including Claptrap, Roland and Lilith’s friend and ally from Borderlands 1. This moment made him merciless, but what really drove him insane was Lilith scarring him at the end out of spite. She could have killed him, but didn’t. She wanted to hurt him. In retrospect, the events of TPS make Jack’s torture of Lilith in 2 kind of cathartic. “Well, what about Angel?” I hear you ask. “Jack enslaved her as a kid to do his bidding! And this was before TPS, when he was supposedly a good guy!” HE HAD NO CHOICE. Angel’s siren powers were uncontrollable, and BD3 shows they resulted in her mother’s death. He clearly loves Angel, and did what he could to make her confinement comfortable, but it would never be enough. My point, TPS Jack *is* a hero by Borderlands standards throughout most of the story, and it was Lilith, Roland, and Moxxie who created the monstrous Handsome Jack, and not once do they admit his existence is their fault, especially Lilith, even when Athena basically points this out to her. Side note: Lilith probably deserves to be on the other list because of TPS and her treatment of Athena. Man, I hated her.
You ever notice all the Berserk references in Drakengard? That's because Caim was created when Yoko Taro asked, "What if we took Guts from Berserk, only without the restraint that keeps him from simply murdering everyone around him?"
While I truly don’t see how the Iris Heart scene is interpreted as her harassing IF, I do appreciate you taking the time to mention it and addressing the fact that it isn’t necessarily what you originally made it out to be. Thank you for that
Honestly about the Warriors of Hope. Those kids could’ve died for real and I would not have cared. Part of me would’ve said “good riddance.” People get too lost in the kid’s personalities and the abuse they’ve suffered and forget that each one of them has a literal mountain of bodies to their names and take pleasure in adding to that pile. Seriously, Masaru (The Red kid from the still) showed off his mountain of naked “claims” before his boss fight. Jataro (The Brown Masked Kid) strings up his victim’s corpses as puppets and plays with them for recreation. Kotoko (pink girl) uses a “groping machine” (I’m not making this up) to sexually violate and r*pe her victims before each kill. (Side note: Her boss intro is very well written and is actually what would happen with a trigger word. That I respect. Bad memories and a cringe you can deal with yourself.) Monaca (Green girl) is satan herself. Caring nothing for her teammates supposed deaths and even physically and sexually assaulting them to get them to do what she wants. Her home life abuse wasn’t even what made her like this. She was just evil from the start. That’s not even considering that those 5 were controlling the Monokuma Murder Machines as well as giant remote control robots. No matter how much they do to redeem themselves each one of those 5 children have enough blood on their hands to never escape the fires of hell. The adults were actually very justified, imagine that suddenly the entire city is now crawling with death machines ready and capable of ripping people to shreds. And children are now running the streets and you see a few playing with your neighbors entrails laughing all the while. I’d be right there with the Adult Resistance. My question is: WHO THE FUCK WOULDN’T?
"Charisma is not a factor; basically if you're intended to be entertained in the character's force of personality and relishing being a villain, I'm not counting them." Well, there goes Handsome Jack.
It also eliminated Emet-Selch from Final Fantasy XIV.
@@NapoleonJonamiteInc unfortunately
I think he is more suited for a 'likeable villains' or 'villains we love to hate'
Monokuma as well.
He’s more of a likable villian to me but I said the same thing lol
Aka: TV Tropes, Unintentionally Sympathetic.
Strange enough, those tend to be my favorite characters.
Wait there’s an urban dictionary trope for this?
@@theskullboy8700 TV Tropes goes a little further than that. Go look it up.
With occasional Strawman has a Point. Possibly some Jerkass Woobie.
@@theskullboy8700 To my memory there is a trope that's named "TV Tropes is ruining your life"
Josh: “I’m not apologizing for what I said about Abby though”
Me: *thank u, u have every right to not like her*
Fully agree
Eh. I disagree regardless. I liked Abby
Fun fact: Even Abbys voice actor hates the character she's playing.
@@turbobist2889 probably because shes getting hate online for voicing her
@@waterking74 No she is an actual gamer who hated her character's actions.
Worst of all in the Josh case, is that the reason why no doctor was able to help him, is because he was being treated for the wrong problem. After all, he was suffering from schizophrenia, yet all the prescriptions he got were of anti-depressants, which leave the main problem, his over-active dopamine unchecked (after all, they only tackled the decrease in serotonin), and it's specially appalling because it's something that anyone who has gone to medicine school should know, so the only explanation is that those doctors, simply didn't care enough to help him when he needed help the most.
Also, it explains a lot his behaviour, since schizophrenia tends to have simptoms like auditory and visual hallutinations (the fact that he sees his dead sisters blaming him for not being there when he was so wasted that he couldn't do a thing), paranoia (he thinks that nobody cares for him, to the point that they would leave him to die even though he was about to be cut in half by a sawblade), social withdrawal (he things that what he does is socially acceptable, like, he even says that it was just a prank, which also, is a nice word choice, because they also thought that what they did to his sisters was just a prank) and disorganized speech (his rambling when he tells them that he was the psycho, it's so incoherent because they are portraying a book case of schizophrenia).
It's quite sad that the one that has the least control over his life and the one that was begging for help can't be saved, after all, he either gets his skull crushed by a wendigo or he becomes a wendigo himself.
This explanation came from game theory
@@theskullboy8700 Yeah, I know. I don't expect anyone to think that I have medic levels of knowledge about psychology (I mean, I am sure I would be terrible in any science-based studies), but I'm explaining why it's such a sad ending for the character to me, because he was never fully in control and didn't have a chance (I'm really into that type of characters, because it's in those cases where you understand that they are wrong, but at the same time can comprehend why they did it, and feel sorry for them, instead of the usual bad is bad because bad that some stories end up writing).
Though maybe I should've said that it was a game theory's video, so, I kinda understand if someone who saw the video and read my comment would've thought I was trying to look smart stealing someone's theories, but I can assure you that was not my intention.
@@FenrirWolf203
Though to be real even without the medical evidence. I could still sympathize with josh
@@theskullboy8700 Yeah, I mean, I guess it's universal the fact that someone who lost a brother/sister would act like that, so, it is kinda relatable. After all, it's for the ones we love that we are able to do the worst of things (also, I feel it also affects the fact that all the characters he haunts are morally questionable, like, it makes you feel like they kinda deserve it, since they all have horrible options, like shooting Emiliy in cold blood, letting someone die to the wendigos. It paints them in really bad ways if they do that, so, in just scaring them, it feels like it's not such a big deal)
@@theskullboy8700 Even so it was backed by evidence and tbh schizophrenics being mistreated is depressingly common.
Josh: "The devil. Satan. The first fallen angel."
Ad starts: "I lost my job at age 56."
Me: "Geeze, times really are getting tough when even the Dark One gets canned"
There's a possible Screwtape Letters joke somewhere in there...
I got an ad about trucks for my experience with the lucius entry
My ad was mint chocolate shakes at Arby's (UA-cam is trying to make me hungry)
I got a fortnite ad. I knew the Dark Ones were involved in that game!
Wasn't there an anime called "The devil is a part timer"?
One character that comes to mind is The Pale King from Hollow Kngiht. Yes, killing thousands of your own children until finding the one who is truly empty of thoughts and emotions in order to trap the Radiance is horryfing and disturbing, but... what other choice did he have? The game never hints at another solution to trap or defeat the Radiance. Hell, Ghost, the protagonist, the character you control, his main objective is to trap the Radiance, and depending on your choices, he can succeed. if you obtain the Void Heart (which allows its host to become hollow) and defeat the Hollow Knight, the Radiance is trapped forever within you; and if you dream nail the Hollow Knight (again, after possesing the Void Heart), you can actuallly kill her, thus proving The Pale King right. What else could he have done? There was no other solution. He either sacrificed one of his children to trap the Radiance, or do nothing and let the Raidance escape from the dream world and mentally enslave the entire population of Hallownest, turning everyone into a mindless puppet whose only purpose is to worship her for eternity.
The entire main conflict of hollow knight has characters we are supposed to hate, but that we unintentionally feel sorry for. The radiance was nearly forgotten about because of the pale king showing up and creating hallownest. Because of her nature as a deity within the realm of dreams, being forgotten would be equal to death. The radiance was understandably furious. Did that excuse her actions of creating an infection that turned people into zombified puppets? Absolutely not, but the radiance was too furious to care about any reprocussions other than seeing hallownest fall
Although not from a video game specifically, I'd argue another good example of this is Eddy from Ed Edd n Eddy. Sure, he's a grifter with a mouth as loud as a bullhorn, but bear in mind that much of his attitude came from learning from his brother, both his abuses and his shady tactics. It's hard to fault Eddy completely when your own brother treats you like a punching bag and gives you lessons on how to be an asshole.
It's what makes the ending of Big Picture Show satisfying when not only does his bro get a door to the face, but that Eddy finally owns up to his mistakes, and the other kids actually come to his defense because of the perspective between the the two.
i agree but he's not a villain per sae. more like a flawed ally. given how much of the things he left behind allowed you to succeed.
As much as I agree, the only problem I see with this is that killing them all seems... kind of needless? Like, why kill them and abandon them in the abyss? Even if he didn't want to raise them, why not just leave them be? Ghost shows that the vessels can get by on their own just fine without parental guidance so why murder them all so casually?
I think THAT'S the part that makes him seem so villainous to so many people
As someone who picked Golden Deer first (wasn’t planning on it, but Claude’s charisma won me over)...yeah, pretty sure I picked my favorite route first. Claude’s ideals are, in my opinion, a realist’s approach to Friendship is Magic: wanting peace for all in a world where cultural boundaries are broken, yet knowing full well that such peace cannot come without sacrifice. Even so, he doesn’t let his goal blind him to his methods, and always tries to minimize that sacrifice to what is absolutely necessary.
Godspeed, Claude; you are a ruler I would follow to the ends of the earth.
Here here, I follow the Golden Deer through and through, a proud member of the Leicester Alliance through and through!
"Then you remember it's Satan."
Oh thank goodness, I thought a spy was narrating this segment for a minute
BUT 1 problem, Lucifer and Satan are not the Same Being, Thats basically due to a Terrible Mistranslation of the Bible and due to poor religious leaders and practices they ended up being the same umbrella branch of 'The Devil'
Lucifer and Satan are also 2 Separate characters in ALL SMT games including 4.
@@lionheart1013 The notion they are not the same is debatable. For what it's worth, my own church teaches that modern revelation has revealed they are the same person. Setting that aside, the "great dragon cast down" in Revelation 12:9 seems to correlate nicely with with the description of Lucifer in Isaiah 14: 12-16. While neither of these are explicitly named in the Bible as "Satan" or "the devil", the implication is strong that they are the same. The adversary of God is always described as one person, or at least, one host acting in concert. "How can Satan cast out Satan?" The leader may be referred to by different titles; Beelzebub, "the prince of this world", "that old serpent", etc., but I see no indication in the Bible they are separate individuals.
@@Regfife Every Church and Religious figure have their own interpretation of Satan/Lucy which is what lead to all the confusion around em as well as misinurpratation of them.
You also got to remember the Old Testament, New Testament and Revelations were all written Centuries apart from one another and were written in different languages.
However this isn't about the whole Relgious debate as thats a debate that can last multiple lifetimes. This is more of Satan and Lucifers Portrayal in the SMT Franchise as Separate beings.
Beelzebub is also a Separate entity in SMT and is a General under Lucy majority of the Time and yeah hes not a very nice Demon and Typically serves as the 2nd to last boss before you Fight Lucy himself.
Fun Fact: To Get Beelzebub as a Demon you need to Evolve him from his Original Demon form Bal Zabul (Or Bal) the Sumerian God of Agriculture before he becomes the 'Lord of Flies' as we know em
The Shin Megami Tensei games consistently twist and butcher Christian theology to tell a story.
And I say this as a fan of the original Devil Survivor game, which used Cain and Abel as core characters, but added a hell of a lot to do so.
"The Adversary" is the term I know, with Satan and Lucifer being more recent.
Satan in smt is also much nicer than god because he actually calls god out (AKA works with you to kill him) for being a monster.
Though satan’s actions in smt 4 apocalypse might be influenced by lucifer since in that game lucifer is a part of satan split off to create an adversary to make god look better (which failed horribly)
#1 though. It's like Yoko Tara was screaming at you "HATE HIM! HATE HIM!" But the game failed to produce a valid reason as to why. Sounds a lot like today's political discourse...
Really shows you how far Yoko has gone
Well said ;)
Drakengard is a barrel of laughs; we've got Sweet Home Alabama next to what Yoko says is the goody-goody of the group, the lady who thinks of children as the other white meat, the guy who has "another" taste for the said white meat..and the white meat that's stuck in perma-veal mode.
Oh, and we can't forget Sir Necromantic.
I love Solas. He spent his life trying to free slaves from his peers, only to sleep for centuries and wake up learning he is villainized by the descendants of the slaves and the slavers are worshiped. And the red lyrium future trip the Inquisitor took was supposed to show how Solas sees the future he is in now. He feels like he made a mistake because he tried to help people but it just ended up worse, now he wants to go back and try to fix it. But if you befriend him this becomes torturous for him. Cause he made the mistake of befriending the people in this horrible future. So even though he is conflicted and feels horrible, he feels like he has to destroy everything to make it right again, even killing his friend and/or lover. It's soooo good!
I also liked Solas. Actually never actually had a problem with him and he haven’t did anything he disapproved of. I actually wish we saw him earlier in the series. In fact I think most of what happened in Dragon Age 2 could have been avoided if Solas was in it.
@@azureheart2846 He's in Dragon Age Origins. Albeit as a crummy looking dog statue and nothing else, but he's there.
i liked solas too, mainly because he's the only bearable mage in the game.
@@windhelmguard5295 he’s also the only mage who actually knows what he’s talking about, 200% of the time.
Solas be the quiet kid in class who slides you a note like "don't come to school on tuesday' and you're like 'BUT WHY' and he just looks at you like you're dumb bc you probably are and he's like *I'm trying to save you from me u idiot*
The thing about Lucifer: While is aligned with Chaos, when he merges with Merkahbah to *become* Satan, they're ultimately on the side of Law; God's right-hand man.
But the Lucifer in IV isn't the Lucifer who you typically see. In prior games, Lucifer and the Archangels existed at the same time. As did the Archangels and Satan. As did Satan and Lucifer.
@Grima the Fell Dragon If my memory has not gone out the window, I believe satan was split into Lucy and Merk in this game cause this time around YhVh brought him back to be the big bad he could rally humanity against, so Lucy took satan's job of temping humanity while Merk was left with the job of judging humanity.
Kinda not counting that travesty of a game as Canon.
That game was honestly little more than an official SMT fanfic.
@Grima the Fell Dragon I think the reason that's said in game is that YHVH had Lucifer be an opposition to his forces to make himself look better. Lucifer didn't realize until the end.
Smt 2 has both lucifer and satan active at the same time so it’s probably just smt 4 and apocalypse where lucifer is a pawn of god.
4 and 2 are in seperate dimensions anyway.
If guzma in this list then “it’s your boy guzma!”
I don't see Guzma as a villain personally. Sure, he allied himself with Lusamine and the Aether Foundation and loves to flout his clout, as well as his team terrorizing people, but man, his father physically abused him for not being the best, Team Skull is filled with Pokemon Trainers who didn't make it far, and the place they reside in is essentially a ruined city. Guzma wants to see himself as important when the world around him keeps shoving him to the sidelines, and I don't blame him for it.
@@glacierwolf2155 As sad as that is, it doesn't make him not a villain. Honestly it may make him a better villain.
@@ArcCaravan Fair enough. It was Guzma's choice to form a team. However, I believe that part of that choice was to help shelter and revitalize the will of people whom were hurt by the facade of becoming a Pokemon Champion, in a 180 to how Guzma's father treated him for failure.
Guzma too hard not to love. His personality, his past, his preferred type, HIS THEME
Watch the video and find out.
The clumsy manner mentioned in the final entry reminds of a timeless Heavy quote:
"What SICK MAN sends BABIES to fight me?"
Well, at least in at least one ending it was kaiju-sized, toothy babies. That seems like a worthy fight. If you don't go mad from the fundamental underpinnings of reality shattering.
I honestly think that along with Spec-Ops the Line, Modern Warfare 2 did this better because the game made No Russian an exception to the rule. Anyone mission you try to shoot a civilian it is a game over for the player. The mission wouldn't have the same weight if you could kill them any other mission.
Ah yes, Edelgard. It speaks volumes about how well she was written that she can still be a hot topic of conversation. What I think a lot of people overlook, though, is that she’s less of an absolutist in her own route. Despite her claims, Edelgard in Crimson Flower DOES have boundaries; she actively tries to minimize casualties when and where she can, and even offers her foes the chance to surrender when she sees them backed into a corner.
Not to mention that she is also a victim of circumstance. She can't really afford more peaceful options because she would be long dead by the time those options succeed, thanks to the shortened lifespan.
Also another thing to add is that it's not just TWSITD responsible for all the problems in Fodlan. The Church of Seiros arguably is guilty of at the very least keeping a false history and upholding the status quo that is causing suffering throughout the continent. Plus, it is debatable as to whether war is the only way to change things. Plus, in my case, I think it helps that when you pick the Eagles, the fact that Rhea was wanting you to execute Edelgard immediately without even trying to understand why she is doing what she is doing helps also. Rhea's order probably makes it easier for players such as myself to choose to protect her.
Yeah one of the questions she can potentially ask you during the war is what to do should Rhea decide to surrender, and one of the responses you can give is for Rhea to give up her political power and never intervene with Fodlan's politics, and I believe Edelgard loves that response the best, so she's willing to spare even Rhea should the latter give up without a fight. Plus, it helps that in her Crimson Flower supports, she is more open to considering others' opinions than in other routes, arguably since she realized that trusting others can pay off since her openness with Byleth is what arguably helps her win his/her support.
Ehh, i wouln't say is her character's writing what makes the division and more the way her route clashes with the other two, if you only play the black eagles it looks like she is right about burning the church, but it's because Byleth softens the plot, when you side with the church she goes badguy hard, you play blue lions and she devolves into full villain trying to burn the church and a (lot) bit of fodland, and golden deers is basically the "Edelgard was wrong" campaign.
I think she is a good character, but 3H clearly wanted to remind that she is team badguys, and many people couldn't accept that.
@@jaimeantonioolaguezchirino5805 If I recall correctly though, I don't think the Golden Deer casts Rhea and the church in an entirely positive light as well since Rhea is revealed to be a huge liar and that Claude has serious issues with her.
"When darkness goes bad, everyone expects it. But when light goes bad, ironically no one sees it coming." Also, a world without darkness would be a white void, specifically the one from Paper Mario.
Shame stories rarely portray that need for balance well. Always devolves to "good" vs "bad".
Well the thing is as Josh said Darkness seems to be the source of all the big problems.
@@ArcCaravan Super Smash Bros World of Light actually did it pretty well. Galeem and Dharkon are both evil
What a coincidence, I had just finished rewatching the "Hated Characters We're Supposed to Love" list.
Interesting how many entries both lists have from the same games.
@@kylestubbs8867 Kind of a karmic balance in a weird way...
@@kylestubbs8867 I know what you mean
@@kylestubbs8867 Aside from the Number 2 entry (who's biggest problem was so glaring even Josh himself brought it up on this very list), I really liked it
Most Developers when they make a mistake: Never doing that again people hated it.
Players: Don't drop it, refine it to perfection.
Yokotaru: I shall take what I have learned and refine my idea to perfection.
Players: Gives a thumbs up.
Why can game freak do that
No idea.
@@swordkingx4874
Maybe they think they can’t do anything wrong
N is the best Pokemon rival. He's a great person but was manipulated his own DAD in order to destroy Unova. Man, and that BATTLE THEME.
Oh yeah, hands down.
Thing is, though... N was _meant_ to be sympathetic. This is a list for characters who _weren’t._
@@kylestubbs8867 Yeah, it's incredibly confusing to see him here when the game basically demands that you're going to like him.
Speaking of...I can't hate Ghetsis, much for the same reason I Josh can't hate Solas: He's pretty much the first team leader since Giovanni to actually have some gravitas behind him, and his absolute pure evil and disdain for everyone and everything that isn't him-even his own 'son'-is a joy to take down a few notches. Can you honestly think of someone more unrepentendly evil in the entire franchise?
@@discipleofdio1040 No... but shouldn’t that be _why_ you hate him? The gravitas is for something he planned to exempt himself and his team from.
It is a weird thing, when you feel for a character you are told to despise. You are right about it not being very common, most of the time the person writing has to have enough talent to make a likable character while lacking the self awareness to realize that they made that character more sympathetic then they intended. That uncanny valley is very hard to actually get because most of the time bad writers simply imitate what they see successful writers do, resulting in characters that are flat and hard to relate to. It's rare to find that writer that is just competent enough to make a character unintentionally sympathetic, and that makes it more painful to see in writing.
Caim's unintentional sympathetic factors are ramped up to eleven in the sequel, and he's technically an antagonist in that one, what with seeking to undo the seals he once tried to protect. However, you can't really blame him; the one being he came to trust unconditionally - maybe even love - is in constant pain due to acting as the new seal for the world and Caim feels all of it because of their pact. The new governing body, the Knights of the Seal, strengthened the seal without consulting him, increasing both his and Angelus' suffering while also necessitating human sacrifices to keep these new seals in check.
Those human sacrifices, you ask? Former soldiers of the Empire from Drakengard 1 who were brainwashed to serve its cause. The leader of the Knights of the Seal, Gismor, is himself a former Empire soldier yet feels no remorse in committing similar acts of cruelty on his own countrymen. Seeing as how the winning side of 1's story ended, it's no wonder Caim restarted his slaughterfest wholesale; everybody's either an asshole or an unwitting pawn who will bring forth the same exact conclusion in any case.
That is yet another reason why Caim is sympathetic: He is suppossed to be an asshole, but the problem is *everyone else is also an asshole!* And unfortunatelly Caim does have logical reasons to act the way he does. (First game, he is a soldier fighting a war were everyone is trying to kill him. In the Sequel, Angelus gets in a Fate Worse than Death, and the people behind the Seal are only making her suffering worse, so he has every right to try to free her from that torment.)
Here’s another opposite suggestion
Ten characters you LOVE to hate
Basically characters you hate, but since their meant to be hated, you feel every satisfaction of hating them
First character that popped into my head but likely won't be on the actual list: Moneybags. Oh sure, in Hero's Tail he's a perfectly fine shopkeep, even if a bit greedy. Spyro 2 though, he knowingly stops you from helping save _his own realm_ just because he loves money... and then hinders you _again_ in Spyro 3, ending with the intent to _sell a Dragon Egg!_ Of course, in both cases he gets justly beat up and all that treasure goes back to you anyway, with the second case allowing _you_ to be the one dishing out the punishment.
Ghetsis, hands-down.
(Before anyone says something like "What about Blue or Giovanni?", I have these to say - Blue was a flat satellite character who only existed for Red's sake, and Giovanni was very static and boring.)
Another one is Kamoshida from Persona 5. He deserves every amount of hate!!!
My favorite mine character was light from death note and a lot of people hate him but I like him
Handsome Jack hate that man but he enjoyable in his madness
So glad my boy Eraqus is getting the love he deserves! There's a certain complexity to him that I can't help but WANT to be explored: someone who WAS Light Is Not Good - for reasons that one can't help but understand - but realizes his mistakes and flaws that one would not expect from him.
Wonder if he could get his own game...
I'm just ticked over Eraqus not acting against Xehanort after their conflict gave him his scars.
Well...there is Dark Road for mobile, but in terms of consoles, I wouldn't mind an Eraqus centered one
I haven't played KH3 but did play BBS and I never thought of Eraqus would be a hated character.
@@Yojimbo16 Probably for trying to kill Ven. And killing Terra just for defending Ven. Personally I get annoyed by him blaming darkness for his own poor judgement.
@@ArcCaravan Oh I forgot about that. It's been years since I played BBS.
I'd be down for a list about the most controversial characters (The ones that walk the tightrope right in between loved and hated)
Fully agree
Ditto.
So... Edelgard again?
Tubba Blubba is such a fascinating case because I kept forgetting his motive. The more I think about it, the more I pity him.
I absolutely knew a Danganronpa character would be on this list, but I didn't expect the Adult Resistance. I thought it would be Nagito or Kokichi.
I was betting Byakuya, Owada, or Mikan.
I don't think Kokichi would really fit this list, as it's revealed that he secretly hated the killing game so he pretended to be the mastermind of the game just to have himself killed in order to create a case not even monokuma could figure out, thus shutting down the killing game
@@WolfRider2002 Could still count so long as the cast and story still treat his actions as reprehensible. More so if with his actions unrelated to the final case.
I think kokichi is disqualified thanks to the charisma rule anyway. Since his bombastic nature is played for comedy.
Poor Gonta
I feel like you are supposed to be sympathetic for Rhea, Edelgard, Demitri , and Claude. Honestly three houses is one of the few games that properly does grey vs grey well.
Yeah aside from TWSITD and some others (cough the fathers of Bernadetta and Jeritza), there's no real bad guy in the game, and regardless of the route you pick, there will be losers who deserved better such as Edelgard and Dimitri outside of their routes.
Despite all that she did, I just couldn't come to hate, or even dislike, Rhea. The only character in the game that was probably supposed to be sympathetic that I downright hated was Gilbert.
@@KeeperOfUntoldDreams For me, I was fully on board with dethroning Rhea when she ordered me to execute Edelgard, and when my response was “Whoa, let’s slow down and talk this out first” (because I’m not about to execute one of my own students, that completely goes against my role as a teacher) she freaks out and turns into a fucking dragon to attack me.
Well, the real tragedy i find in THree houses is taht...you really wish you could save everyoen, you really do, but that won't happen, wich leaves with a burning hatred towards TWSITD, the monsters who had caused many off the troubles and are the reason everything went wrong.
@@JaelinBezel Edelgard DID just attack Rhea's students in the crypt of Rhea's family, so I can partially understand why she'd be so pissed.
Solas is pretty easy to get approval for. Be curious; almost every leftward selection will give you a slight approval bonus.
exactly.
Yeah I was like broooo seriously he's not that hard to impress
Yep. Whenever I felt like dealing with him anyway. He just seemed like such an asshole, so I dumped his ass the moment I didn't need him anymore. Why do I need him when I have Dorian?
Having only seen a playthrough of Until Dawn, I remember the person playing had absolutely no patience for any of Josh's behavior. And I just remember finding that... really disturbing, honestly.
Same, I remember watching some let's player that was so harsh on Josh and I felt so bad. After they got the mental breakdown part with his hallucinations they still seemed to hate him and were so mean but I watched so many play through of that game I don't remember quite who they were.
Are we talking about josh as in joshscorcher or firery joker or firebrand and i knew him from his my little pony reviews
Unfortunately this is because his actions, from what I know of them, are completely unacceptable. This isn't a justification of what led him to that point, but a simple truth that too many people ignore to the detriment of individuals currently dealing with such problems. That they are problems, and these problems force them to remove themselves from society or be trampled by it. They cannot conform, and thusly need someone to help them do so. Constant help, medication, all dependent on the intensity of the mental health issue afflicting them. These people are not contributors to the world, they actively hinder it, and in a worse one would be killed the moment symptoms started showing. Just give thanks that people are willing to sacrifice their entire lives helping their loved ones even have a chance at a normal life, and hope that you never have to.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudios Josh from Until Dawn
@@netherwalker1762
I bet you even felt smart after writing that
Unfortunately for the #3 entry...you have to blame a stupid book for causing everything, because 1 man saw into the future, wrote everything down, and if anyone acts out of line and tries to change the future, they'll just stick you in a prison because you "acted out of line"
Thank you for bringing attention to the fact that Caim is NOT a complete and utter psychopath but has every reason to commit every murder he did.
*The bells. The bells of the end.*
Is Edelgard supposed to be hated though? I see her as a character you're supposed to come to your own conclusion about. Being dead centre on the fence of hero and villain.
That being said even if you chose her house she still tries to backstab you once before you get to side with her and spitting in the face of my loyalty is a good way to never get it back.
Not sure if she's supposed to be hated. But I hate her so much
Can confirm Edelgard was supposed to be hated
Source: I hate Edelgard
Also can we talk about how she wants to genocide the dragons (a race that already got genocided for their blood and body parts just for steroids and weapons) for a minute? Not just Rhea, but literally all the Nabateans just for being "Children of the Goddess" and therefore "you must never have any authority or contact with humans ever again because humans should only listen to themselves and I hate Sothis" to the point Linhardt has to protect Indech from her by keeping the fact he's going to the lake a secret and she actively celebrates their extermination at the end of the game? That's a yikes from me.
Pretty sure being a villain in other paths still helps portray them as intended to be hated.
@@discipleofdio1040 never hated her, just her pathway on a story standpoint.
"Just goes to show the Golden Deer was the best route."
Fear the deer baby! XD
Ah, Josh being a Golden Deer of culture as well, I see.
LIES AND SLANDER
Yup definitely
Glad to see he’ll stand with me by Claude’s side.
@@isenokami7810 I loved Claude’s route!!!
Yesss Golden Deer best house! #FearTheDeer
You just made me sympathize with a crazed yet remorseful soldier, a man doomed to go mad in his own mourning, and the punishing demon of Pride.
Gotta go over those entries again!
I'm getting Mustafa vive with you're comment
@@Ramsey276one I should probably put the incarnation of malice, and the epitome of self loathing, in Solas. I was talking about smt Lucifer, Snow and Caem, btw.
@@thegamingknight642 last one was the confusing one for me!
XD
I have to mention a overlooked part that people keep missing. Edelgard really didn't want to side with them but she knew that her ideals would be impossible without them. This is mentioned by Hubert before storming the great bridge of Myrdin that she did oppose the idea at first before finally deciding to give in. It was a painful choice because Thales and his cronies was responsible for crimes such as the experiments to infuse crests in to a person at the cost of a reduced lifespan in the imperial palace and house ordelia, experiments that turned humans into demonic beasts, turning the nabataeans in weapons, the insurrection of seven, having a "advisor" named pan manipulate Loog into making the kingdom, kidnapping Flayn to harvest her blood, killing Jeralt, Tomas, Monica, manipulating Nemesis to kill the nabataeans, depending on the route, corrupting Rhea's crest stone to turn her into a rampaging beast or reviving Nemesis and his allies, the remire calamity that made the villagers violent killers, all for their selfish gains. It was hard for her to choose whether to side with them or not. She also started the war because she wanted to have a conversation on more equal terms but her shortened life span meant she wouldn't live long enough to see it through. In the blue lions route she even turns herself into a monster out desperation just to see her goals because she became a ice queen. All of this happens because without Byleth she's merely a puppet used by those who slither in the dark. The support conversations that reference her past along with her support conversations with other characters lead to why she is going down that bloody path to the future that she and Claude seem to try and make a reality. This also hinted with her critical hit phrase don't waste my time. While it does sound cool, if you take the time to look into her character you understand the more tragic reason why she says it. These reasons make me understand why she is taking a shorter bloody path with all those sacrifices. I don't intend to criticize you but rather tell you a few facts you overlooked to help explain why she follows this path.
Plus, it helps that Edelgard already knows that TWSITD is evil and needs to be eliminated. And I think her allying with them temporarily is understandable considering how powerful the Church of Seiros and Rhea are.
@@sjk8495 Which is that Rhea is...mostly,if not COMPLETELY unreasonable.Seriously,if she and Edelgard had a civil discussion about the issue,we might have some form of golden route.Of course,that means Dimitri and Claude also have to be on board,which of course they are,and that would mean taking the fight to TWSITD.
...but this isn't Fates,where a Golden Route is needed,this is Three Houses,where every route is different and varied.
there is also the fact that she has hubert by her side, who enabled her actions and serves as her personal echo chamber. if you poach all possible black eagle students, he will be the only one she has left. everyone needs someone who is willing to speak against them to truly improve. ferdinand serves that role to her, but huberts guidance might overrule him, and, while difficult, you can still convert him to your side
I never learned what Flayn’s deal was, I only managed to exploit her ai to lock her into an indefinite 1v1 combat loop with Caspar so I didn’t have to kill her in the time it took me to negotiate with Seteth. The result being letting him and Flayn retreat from the battlefield and withdraw from the war entirely and I never saw or heard of them again.
Honestly, slaying her as the final boss of the Blue Lions route, and just seeing her pass on the Golden Deer route… just cause carnage happens within Fire Emblem inevitably are one thing, but siding against her in her own route, the Black Eagles? Yeah, this is why I chose the Crimson Flower over the Silver Snow ending (and on that note, I really have no intent on doing SS’s ending) - I literally could NOT bring myself to kill someone who was my student from the get go, even if it’s only of ONE playthrough. And besides, I never really cared to bond with the Chruch of Serios members (besides Rhea of course) anyway.
I feel like Edelgard shouldn't really qualify. She's not supposed to be liked, but she's not necessarily supposed to be disliked either. The whole thing with Three Houses is how there's more than one perspective on conflict and how multiple people with good intentions can end up conflicting with one another. Edelgard in particular is very Lelouch-esque, where she has unmistakably good intentions, but the issue is whether or not her actions are justified by her motive, and the game doesn't really give you a concrete yes or no answer to that. Sure, she's quite literally demonized in one route, but only the one where you're sided with Dimitri, who wants nothing more than revenge against her.
That’s true
Well and the fact she wants to genocide an entire species because of her hatred of rhea and relishes in the extermination like she's a savior
@@maverickdarkrath4780 ??? Idk where people keep getting this from but Edelgard *never* wanted to genocide the Nabateans. Nemesis was the one who almost did, and Edelgard only opposes them due to them being her enemy and basically being lizard people controlling the largest institution in Fódlan. Hell, in her own route you can spare Seteth and Flayn if Byleth defeats them, and she gives Rhea the option to surrender before she decides to torch a city, which definitely goes against the whole notion of her wanting genocide.
@@amirgarcia547 I just wish Edelgard fans would stop acting like "Ooga booga Rhea bad Edelgard good ooga booga" already. Not all fans, I know, but come on...
I also have suspicions that part of the Rhea hate comes from this wave of modern hate boners for religion these days...
@@ramenbomberdeluxe4958 i dislike religion, so i definitely sympathize more with edelgard. when i played the game blind, and i was forced to choose between who to follow, i picked edelgard because rhea got on my wrong side with every action she made. namely, hiding behind religion to justify her actions and never taking responsibility. edelgard, on the other hand, knows well that she is about to do evil deeds, and does not convince herself otherwise. it certainly does not help that crimson flower, the one route where rhea is an antagonist, is overall poorly written. you only see her redeeming qualities AFTER you chose to side with her or picked claude from the start. she should have had some sympathetic moments, maybe a scene where her backstory is explained. instead, she just descends further into villainy with no regret or hesitation, ending with burning down the city that gave her shelter just to give her an advantage
started to ramble there, but i have a lot to say about that topic. it essentially boils down to "jerk who admits it" and "jerk who denies it", and the denial can be in especially poor taste if you do not buy religion as an excuse
At least you're not trying to say what Edelgard did was okay. Honestly, if Rhea really wants to keep the crest system, she wouldn't endorse Hanneman's research that would ultimately set people free of the system, especially with Lysithea on his side. I know Edelgard can't 100% count on a research that doesn't yield immediate result, but considering no matter which path I pick, I can get Hanneman his good ending anyway, Edelgard's cause doesn't mean much to me lol.
Hanneman deserves his own house with Lysithea as his second in command. He's the true hero of Fodlan.
Yes this.
Hanneman was ultimately able to overcome the physical power imbalance brought about by crests, but the social value of them wouldn't go away. Edelgard was going directly for the throat of the nobility system in order to destroy the value they placed on crests. I wouldn't say either Edelgard or Hanneman invalidated the goals of the other.
Count Shaman Honestly I think most people might be unaware that even though Edelgard thinks Rhea has institutional power, in reality she doesn't really, the Church is basically a peacekeeper organisation, the one thing Rhea does totally wrong at least for society is that she doesn't think that the printing press is important due to commoners not having basic reading ability. Rhea's faults are more about her character and morals and less that she has too much power.
Rhea is more content to let humanity rule themselves with her making sure they don't destroy themselves by creating the officers academy, like she teaches that Crests give people the power to rule but if Hanneman's research replicated them I don't think she'd try to stop it.
I think you’re all kind of overlooking some things, like the fact that Rhea actively tries to stem the flow of information to keep people ignorant of what Crests really are or where they come from.
Furthermore, as someone in charge of a peacekeeping organization, Rhea kind of does a terrible job at actually keeping the peace. Even before Edelgard starts her war, Fodlan is RIFE with internal conflict, and even the different branches of the church itself start to fight among themselves.
Gold Wade That's a flaw but an understandable one, you aren't exactly gonna want to spread around that Crests are from Dragons and you can get a Crest by killing a Dragon (example being Rhea), she changes the truth so that she and the other surviving Dragons are less likely to be killed for Crest power.
Bandit attacks are kind of common in all FE timelines even in moderate peacetime like the beginning of Awakening, so I can't really hold that against her otherwise every FE Lord is guilty, the Church is being manipulated by TWSID, you can't have them be sussed out as then you lose out on the actual story, finally the internal conflict is basically all humans, Rhea allows them to govern themselves, she would just step in if one were to say declare war on the other two.
Jigsaw, that's the word that describes Josh in a nutshell, as that's what Josh reminds me of, he had no outright desire to kill his friends for what they did, he simply wanted them to face their mistakes and let them feel the terror that they caused.
and one thing that derives this belief of mine is you can keep any of the characters from being killed in a run, if Josh had blatant intent on killing everyone, he sure as hell could've done so.
The joke you used to introduce your number 5 cracks me up. I sometimes wonder if they intend them to be some we hate very much, but get surprised when we actually do care for them, or even agree with what's being said.
Zero from Drakengard 3 isn't a villain protagonist. When you get to route D you learn that literally every kill she made is 100% justified and for saving the world. It's supposed to be a reverse of Drakengard 1 where at first you think Caim is a righteous noble hero only to find out he's a murderous psychopathy, while in Drakengard 3 you first think Zero is a selfish evil villain only to find out she's the selfless good guy.
Yeah her actions amount to kill people to save the world and the soldiers she kills are also justified since they are brainwashed and once someone gets addicted to the song they turn into monsters when they stop hearing it. Seriously the only arguably unjustified kill was the narrator of the opening scene (since he was a civillian)
I disagree but only a little. Zero is certainly not a selfless good guy and Caim isn't entirely evil either (at least, not yet). Zero (Back before the flower happened) already murdered innocent people for various reasons. Sure she was horribly abused but once she was free of that situation, she *chose* to kill and steal and hate everything. That's why the Flower chose her to begin with. And when she later on decided 'this world is horrible but it doesn't deserve to end' and decided to stop the Flower, THEN we actually get into Drakengard. As for Caim, he *does* have feelings. Angelus comments on them pretty often. He mourns for her, he's sad about Inuart, he's confused and angry at Furiae. But most of all, he's been *born* into a war, and its all he knows. He's not a good person by any means, but he's also actively working towards a resolution that would, in theory, be better for everybody involved. At NO point are you supposed to think Caim is a good guy, he starts as a murderer and he ends as a murderer, its just we get to see the things he does and the judgements he makes.
That being said, Zero is a much better character study lol, but there's something to be said that people still feel like Caim is in the right, even if you disagree with the actions. He's still better written than many other characters.
Here's a couple of things I wanted to bring up in your favor on your Number 1 spot, Josh:
(Spoilers for anyone who hasn't gotten that far yet!)
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- As confirmed by the second game (more specifically, in several of the weapon stories) Caim is implied to be suffering from severe untreated mental illness; if some of the stories are accurate, he's had trouble relating and feeling empathy to others even as a kid. This ties into the next few points:
- He's a former noble, from a rather well-off kingdom; in real life, plenty of noble children and such were not raised the best, and became spoiled as a result. Granted, it's entirely possible that his parents were good ones, and he was noted to have been a good child to them and loved them dearly, but it's still a possibility.
- He watched his parents get murdered right in front of him when he was a kid; more specifically, they were eaten by a dragon, which you can actually see, partially, in the video. That would not bode well for anyone's sanity, especially a child.
- Tying directly into the above; as a result of his parents' death, he and his sister had to spend an extended period of time on the run, homeless; again, losing your family, your home, all the wealth and comfort you had, and the entire life that you were able to live to a psychotic death cult empire would not be good for someone's sanity.
- After all of that above, he's been pretty much fighting the Empire since he was a child; by the events of the game, he's only about 24 years old. Being a former child soldier himself, of course he's not going to show mercy to the child soldiers the Empire was using; in his messed-up viewpoint, he probably doesn't really regard them as any different as any other Empire soldier.
- Not to mention, he's the only guy that really seems to be competent in fighting the Empire, and he has to take care of his sister, the Guardian of the Seal. That amount of pressure + already fragile sanity = psychotic breakdown.
Even if he didn't make the list, I'm kinda glad Maruki from P5R was shown at the start as he's the character that to me embodies what this list is about.
I absolutely could not like someone who essentially takes away the free will of everyone, but when you see his back story and what he does with that power to rewrite reality, I know there is part of me who would be tempted to side with him
Care to fill me in?
The only person’s free will he takes is Akechi (and fuck that guy). What he overwhelmingly does is make the world a utopia. People ARE happier in his world. The only reason the Phantom Thieves don’t like the new world is because it’s not quote-unquote “real” (even though reality is just a matter of perception). That and they want to “earn” their achievements. Fuck off with that. If people get what they want and no-one is harmed then who care if it isn’t “deserved”.
Lastly, they make a big deal about people not “growing” in Maruki’s world and...so what? Growth is good because it lets people deal with the injustices of the world. Without injustices, there’s no need to grow. The only time Maruki started to lose me is when he’s like “you’re right that it’s better for people’s growth when they can face their own problems”. I was like “how is that relevant?”.
Well, Maruki is one off the most complicated characters i saw in Persona 5. And a huge contrast to the madmen who were the palace owners. At first i admit i would agree in part with what he presents and deep down, i would want everyone to not go trough those pains that many were hurt....to paraphrase from one off my favourite shows
"No one gets hurt..or lost"
But there is a sad reality. Nothing can be done without a cost. There are thigns taht show than while hsi intentions were good, not everyone would necessarily agree with the imposing, and one off the key factors in opossing him?...im still giong to be vague with some details but, one off the solutions he has for one off the characters who ahd suffered a heavy pain..well, ill just say that this i not the way to help that character's pain.
@@lsebastian9086I see Maruki is a much more well executed Sybok from Star Trek V right down to his sinister benevolence and Joker responding against his removal of sadness.
So characters who fail at being hated then.
Nah, they seem to succeed in getting some hate. Just not as much as intended or more reasonable than the creators wanted.
I was honestly expecting something a little more comical, where the creators attempted to make a character unlikeable, but did so in a way that made the character into a comic relief. Miu Iruma, for instance; she was created to be unsympathetic, rude, and extremely vulgar (basically, another version of Hiyoko Saionji), but the end result was one of the funniest characters in the series, especially when she interacts with Kokichi Oma.
But, the sympathetic route works, too.
Miu was unironically great. Yeah, she was crude but, I mean, that’s not a bad thing on its own.
Pretty sure I saw in an interview that the entire development origin of her is that one of the creators wanted to make the least likable character possible.
@@i8dacookies55 Well they failed spectacularly.
@@i8dacookies55
I think they succeeded with Sayonji personally for me at least. Im not sure why though.
Sayonji to me just felt like a bully. Her treatment and abuse of mikan felt too far at points, it felt like she was specifically targeting someone weak. (Her treatment of small animals makes it seem like she picks on those weaker than her). Yeah she had SOME good and a bit of development hidden under all that filth, but it was marginal at best to me.
Miu was rude to everyone, It made her seem kind of less like a bully and more of an idiot...at least to me, I dont know how to explain it. And Mius insults felt more...comedic, so it made her entertaining unlike Sayonji. And with Miu her hidden submissive side gave her some form of consequence.
@@revolvingworld2676 I actually really like Hiyoko and dislike Miu. Hiyoko was rude to everyone and makes fun of them in an almost accurate way most of the time, the only reason Mikan gets most of the flak is because she kind of asks for it (with the falling and constantly crying and it's hinted that Mikan might intentionally do those things, I'm not blaming her but she has a lot of issues herself). Miu on the other hand, her insults are usually not even close to true and way too sexual for my tastes, plus she's really creepy in her free time events, it makes her even ten times worse. I also don't like the submissive side personally, if you're going to be a bitch own it. But I know I'm in the minority on this one, a lot of people like Miu more than Hiyoko, and she does contribute more to the story than Hiyoko.
I wasn't expecting that at number 1: I loved the Drakengard games, Caim and Zero are my favorite anti-heroes in particular, and i really like their relationships with their dragons at the end
It just makes me wish for a remaster of those 3 games, even though 2 is probably the..."safest" of the trilogy.
SO I THOUGHT YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. In a group I'm in, someone once tweeted at Yoko Taro 'Sooo, would Caim and Angelus make love, or would they just fuck?' and Yoko Taro said 'They fuck.' Just plain n' simple.Not 'they would' fuck. Just an affirmation of the action. SO.
THERES A TIDBIT OF EXTRA DRAKENGARD KNOWLEDGE.
god having a 2 remaster would be the worst. Fuck that game.
@@sarafontanini7051 If you ignore the story, it's not a terrible game and it does improve a few things over DK1: the combat is better, so is magic, you use multiple characters with their own weapons (which is better than 1, where they're just temporary summons), maps are smaller but more detailed this time (because let's be honest, DK1 maps were big but extremely void of details), movement is less stiff, dragon fights are more fast paced, and overall it wasn't so bad as people make it out to be.
I haven't played that game in at least 15 years so memory is very foggy, but worst game ever? Absolutely not. But it is the most forgettable of the DK trilogy for sure. It would require some rework to make it tie to nier and even then I don't think we need it.
About Anakin: Palpatine started planting seeds of doubt in his mind since the day he arrived at the Jedi temple. Also, he knew that what Anakin needed was a parental figure, like what Qui-gon would have been if he became Anakin’s master, so Palpatine used that to his advantage
Plus he never really got over Shmi's death. I can make a director parallel between Anakin's fall and the five stages of grief. Palpatine know about the incident as established in Episode III and he knew when Anakin would be at the bargaining stage where he made his offer to him.
Let’s just say that the Jedi are at fault for this as well because they believe a boy whose been a slave his entire life, who never won a pod race because the whole thing was rigged and never experienced a life of freedom, is basically the chosen one who will bring balance to the Force. I thought it was a Grey Jedi’s job to bring balance to the Force.
You know for the Snow entry, it probably also helps his case in liking him just a little bit that he's voiced by Troy Baker.
STEELGUARD!
He’s definitely part of the reason why most fans consider Yuri Lowell to be the best Tales protagonist.
@@Cure_Hana I will never forgive them for not inviting him back for the remake.
@@Heroshii15 Heard they might have tried, but Troy was too expensive or big name for them to afford.
@@ArcCaravan I heard that he gladly would’ve returned, but no one asked him.
I think Eraqus is defensible because of his experience.
Aqua doesn't have that excuse when she goes to try to murder the Tremaines, right as she might have been about that, but, at the moment, they weren't doing anything she needed to intervene against at that moment. She wasn't aware that they were domestically abusing Cinderella, but that wouldn't have been something she could use against them in the first place. Yes, Fairy Godmother goes on about the balance thing, but let's be honest, she was just trying to stop Aqua from being a Knight Templar
In general, of the three, Aqua held the idiot ball the most when she was the one who should've been holding it the least. It's kind of why she's my least favorite of the three female protagonists, especially by III when it shows she's learned nothing. Not having her views towards the darkness challenged by everything about Riku nor her "I need to do this by myself coz I'm the big girl Master" and promptly getting her ass handed to her by Ansem and Vanitas.
Eraqus at least has personal experience to justify his disdain for the darkness, because he has the literal scars from being hurt by it. III could've been an opportunity to show that they were wrong about darkness with regards to Terra and especially Riku, while still damning Xehanort's use of it. Oh well.
I think Tohru Adachi from P4 would've fit this list well.
Most other murder mystery stories have the main villain be a psychotic lunatic or a misunderstood, philosophical who went down the wrong path.
But Adachi isn't any of those, he's normal, and somewhat relatable.
He's lonely, stuck in a job and town he hates, studied his whole life just to get stuck in the boonies for one mistake. It's no wonder he snapped and resorted to murder.
He cares for no one cause he has no one, he hates the world cause in his eyes the world hates him, he is the antithesis to the message of persona which is to make friends and enjoy life. Most importantly he's a cautionary tale about what loneliness and isolation can cause, complete apathy and nihilism.
It's like the old phrase "A child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel it's warmth."
Damn, someone on the editing team likes Danganronpa
Thought it was twitter followers.
It worked!
Fun fact, Hayden Christiansen, the dude behind Anakin Skywalker himself, actually said that that scream of "No" was a suit malfunction to dub over his Blood-curdling scream of pure agony
Josh: *"I'm Not Apologizing For Abby, Though"*
IMO, U Were *Merciful* With That Monster
Considering UA-cam won't let him go ham hands on the character and the man that brought that Freak into video game creation, he can only say what he can record. Other than that, That Game is forever Druckmann edition instead of a proper Number 2.
P.S. Firing someone because they're not "woke", as stupid as that context is, SHOULD be classified as a hate crime. Period!
You could show mercy to that character
@@theskullboy8700 That's True... But Abby Deserves Anything *Except* Mercy
@@BardockSkywalker Along with the "Dark Knights", those people who can't seem to discern fiction from reality.
@@BardockSkywalker
I’m sorry I meant to say defect because. Abby is not a human or character. And I’m generally pretty forgiving myself
This should be interesting, honestly for me it’s king Grangel from Fire Emblem awakening thanks to his supports
Interestingly? Yeah. Not only that but if you don’t romance him? His death is almost Shakespearean in execution. It’s kinda sad.
from the same game, we could also include chroms father. he is hated among the population for his singleminded crusade against the grimleal, to the point that some of the hate bled on to emmeryn once she took the throne. no one has anything nice to say about him. however, from what we see of the grimleal, is it really that wrong to want them gone?
@@Underworlder5 I wish the game talked about him more.
That #1 segment was really fascinating. Good work, Josh. Now, the only logical conclusion for these two videos is to make Top 10 Characters You Were Supposed to have Strong Feelings for (Like/Hate), but Left No Impression Whatsoever. It's a long title, but I'm sure you can trim it down.
Characters we're supposed to have strong feelings for but left no impression? Hi Q
@@WolfRider2002 supposedly likeable characters that fell flat.
Eh. It seems like a meme video, at best.
@@hariman7727 hey it was the guy above me who suggested it. I was just offering a character who could be on that list
One honorable mention that comes to my mind is Flowey from Undertale. He's not likeable, but he's hard to hate when you look into his character.
Each of the routes paints him in a different light.
In the Neutral Route, he starts off as the antagonist and goes to extreme lengths to get what he wants all for the sake of his own entertainment, even tempting you to kill him towards the end.
But then you get to the True Pacifist and Genocide Runs.
Prior to True Pacifist, he lets you try to get a better ending...until he does a full heel-turn and manages to steal every Soul in the Underground and assumes his ultimate form. But as the fight progresses, we learn that he only wanted to see his old friend again (which opens up its own can of worms) and after coming to terms with his friend's passing, breaks the barrier using the power of every Soul in the Underground along with the Human Souls (it's mentioned that it would take the souls of every monster in the Underground to match the power of just one Human Soul, which is how the barrier is broken) and returns them all to their rightful owners.
In the Genocide Run, we learn of Flowey's backstory from his perspective. He was accidentally brought back to life due to Alphys's experiment and was unhappy with his new life. He tried to commit suicide before getting cold feet and wanting to stay alive...and due to the Determination Alphys gave him and therefore his determination to not die, Flowey had the power to reset the timeline akin to our Save Files. As such, he played around with this power and went on his own Neutral, Genocide, and Pacifist Runs...because he just had to know what would happen if he did. He got bored of it and wanted to do something about it...and that's when we show up, and when he finds out that he can't reset the timeline anymore, so he decides to manipulate and frighten you for his own amusement.
Regardless of whatever actions you take in Undertale, Flowey is less hateable when you really look into him. Everything he did and does in the game...is no different than what we do. He did everything he did...because he wanted to know what would happen.
Master Xehanort doesn't claim to hate the darkness, or at least he doesn't deny his malicious use of it. He specifically says the world needed someone strong to prevent the pollution of darkness from corrupting the world further. Basically, his ultimate goal was to rewrite the world to realign the balance of light and darkness, he needed darkness to do it and he didn't believe anyone else was capable of doing this without failing partway. In other words, his every evil deed throughout the series was for the greater good, at least from his perspective. Darkness was a means to an end to him; something that necessitated his self-appointed role as a villain in order to achieve his aims. He saw his actions as making every necessary sacrifice to achieve the power needed to fix a world that he viewed as broken, and the game doesn't necessarily endorse this viewpoint. Sora more or less tells him that even if Xehanort were right about what the world needs, he's not the right person to do it because of what he's done.
Honestly, this. The sad thing is you need to dive deep into the lore, considering it's the reports that give this image of Xehanort early. Take those reports away, and what do you have?
@@BleachMeister A man with seemingly contradictory motives?
@@BleachMeister Bad writing. Kingdom Hearts III was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I'll periodically check in to see if anything improves (so far, it hasn't. Melody of Memory was stupid, in my opinion), but until then, I'm kind of done with the series. To me, the only games in the series are KH1, CoM, Days, and KHII.
It also should be noted that Xehanort was over 80 years old when he decided that "He had no other choice but to reset the universe to remove Darkness from equation once and for all" meaning:
- he lost faith that anyone except for him can change anything
- and it does not matter whether he kills one or million, betrays friends and family - he already decided that he is ENDING THE WHOLE MULTIVERSE... Because it is doomed either way.
Why it is doomed EITHER WAY? Because guess what Xehanort was doing all this 65+ years after he realised that balance of light and darkness is slipping and they are about to have ANOTHER event where too much light were gathered and darkness went Berserk and swallowed worlds... Only this time there is a possibility that miracle of children's dream preserving bits of light might not happen and everyone WILL DIE. And worst of all NO ONE believes or helps Xehanort to preserve balance - while Eraqus keeps spreading light like an idiot, molding his pupils in his "PURGE ALL DARKNESS" ways. And mind you Xehanort TRIED for 65+ years to find a more peaceful solution (seriously good reputation isn't created over one day) - his desperation is what drove him into this madness...
And you know what is most hilarious thing? It feels like whether he wins or loses in the end of KH3 was a good resolution for him either way.
- he wins - remake the universe, remove Darkness threat once and for all, put Keyblade to your temple, pull the trigger.
- he lost - and he still won... As all his actions lead to an enormous balance offset towards Darkness keeping equilibrium for years to come and EVERYONE without noticing accepted his teachings of preserving balance... Even old Keyblade Masters like Mickey... With Riku being shining example of Keyblade Master using both Light and Darkness.
Why he even passes X-blade to Sora? Because he reminds him of dull and ordinary boy that left the islands and for many years tried to protect the multiverse... Which now stands here old and tired of his unending fight hoping that this one before him will prove him wrong and will not repeat his mistakes...
Isn't it ironic that ultimately Xehanort's actions made him succeed in what he deemed impossible in his years before BBS preserve the balance and leave a good legacy he always wanted to leave?
@@Ghostel3591 I just see that all as both character assassination and another retcon just for the sake of it. Xehanort hating darkness definitely feels forced after he spent the whole series practically giving it a massive blowjob in every single speech of his.
"All worlds begin in darkness, and all so end. The heart is no different. Darkness sprouts within it, it grows, and consumes it. Such is its nature. In the end, every heart returns to the darkness from whence it came. For, you see, darkness is the heart's true essence."
"So you have come this far, and still you understand nothing. Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness!"
"Behold the endless abyss! Within it lies the heart of all worlds: Kingdom Hearts! Look as hard as you are able. You'll find not even the smallest glimmer of light. From those dark depths are all hearts born. Even yours."
"Darkness conquers all worlds!"
"Let's see what your 'precious' light can do."
Spoilers for Fire Emblem Three Houses below
Probably the one major thing about Edelgard that I’d like to point out here that wasn’t mentioned (and I think is either overshadowed or misinterpreted) is the bit about how Edelgard still chose to work with Those That Slither In The Dark should you choose to go against her via betraying her and siding with the Church of Seiros or you chose to teach another house in pre time skip. I started (and currently still) playing Verdant Wind, but in the final pre time skip chapter, which was defending Garreg Mach, I decided to have Byleth go against her, and she commented on how she wished Byleth sided with her in the beginning because of how unique their position is, lore wise, logic wise, and gameplay wise. Since Byleth had great potential and was once a fierce mercenary, they were someone who anyone would have liked to gain as a valuable ally. Edelgard basically confirms that Byleth is a very influential individual who can affect the outcome of one’s future.
The only reason why she still chose to work with the people behind the whole reason her siblings are dead and why there was a huge disconnect between Adrestria and the Church of Seiros is because she felt she had no other choice. Those That Slither In The Dark are very corrupt, maniacal, sadistic people who have enough power to take down big name power houses and nobles alike and strip them away of their own influence over people in a whim. The idea of working with those same people who caused her family to suffer losses for the sake of “research” was possibly appalling to her, but because she didn’t see any other way of gaining the power and influence she needed to shape her ideal world where crests and social status bear no influence on one’s potential, she felt she had no other choice but to continue working with them. She technically had the choice to not work with them for much longer on her own, but then there was the idea that the figurative snake people she had to cooperate with could dispose of her and everything she wished to protect the moment she became a threat to them and showed signs of betrayal. It was either going against the Church of Seiros just because Rhea was sort of (and may be) hypocritical about her stance on who is deemed evil and how crests are valued so much when there’s people in the church itself like Seteth who actually have the same opinion on how crests shouldn’t define a person’s worth or it meant that everything she worked for to build a future where nobody’s value is determined by what they’re born as is destroyed and costing her own life as well as her remaining loved ones. The only one who has enough power to rival that of the snake people would be Byleth themselves, and Byleth siding with Edelgard actually allows Edelgard to cut ties with the snake people without risking all that she loved dear, since now she can focus on what really mattered to her, which was protecting those who needed it.
In the post time skip of the Blue Lions Route, Azure Moon, Dimitri calls her out on this viewpoint and even outright says that the path she was trying to carve out wasn’t a one size fits all solution, as it had loads of bloodshed involved. However, I’d like to believe that had Edelgard been in a position to be able to cut ties without risk with those she hated outside of her own route, she would have. Continuing to worth for the villains without any other alternatives has also muddied or even erased her original reason for doing what she did back then, so much so that she also became corrupted in the process, which is what ultimately leads to her downfall in the pathways outside of Crimson Flower.
That’s something I just brought up because I thought it was also important to consider, but great list anyways, Josh! Also, not to toot the bigger horns, but uh #FearTheDeer
7
Also, his ending has people actually survive. Side with the other bois, everyone dies and they start from scratch, side ya boi and there is hope for a better future, down a corridor of darkness
I always felt that Darkness was just a force, or a tool that could be used by anyone, and Xehanort just so happened to be one of the best users of it.
which would be nice if ... say someone used it for good ... BY SOMEONE (cough cough Riku after KH:CoM)- or a better one Judge frodo (KH:DDD) was consumed by LIGHT not darkness showing that someone whose on a justice bloodlust can be just as destructive if not left unchecked as someone who kills for the sake of killing - either one of those would show that there *is* a balance and getting consumed by either is a bad thing or ther is a right way and a wrong way to use either - it's just that darkness tends to be used wrong and light tends to (at least in the games) be used correctly but there *IS* a wrong way to use it
I can see that, but he had a dark aura in KH, and Xemnas talked about it. You’re absolutely right tho
Snow is an underrated character...
Finally someone says it!
I know!!
He’s one of the best characters in the game. He’s at least TRYING to do good. Usually failing but he DOES own up to his mistakes with hope (who I also like because, let’s be honest, you’d act in a very similar way if you were put in the situation[s] he was).
Do a video where a character is meant to be sympathetic/unsympathetic and succeeds all too well.
He’d have even _more_ trouble making a list like that.
How would that be possible? Can you give an example that wouldn't fall under this or the other list?
@@kylestubbs8867 true
@@ArcCaravan Dr. Maruki from p5 Royal. He's such a good guy and genuinely cares about everyone, And has his relatable moments and some good points in why he does what he does. And while his actions you can't really agree with, You don't find yourself hating him for it, Just feeling bad for him and sorrowful at the fact you have to fight him to get your old reality back. And you're supposed to feel that way.
@@MementoMori7777 That sounds like this list rather than a seperate list. SPOILERS: he was in honorable mentions.
Honestly I never liked Solas mainly due to his hypocrisy.
I barely played Inquisition.
Never liked Solas solely because he never interested me.
Honestly, I couldn’t follow Josh’s explanation for including him.
@@kylestubbs8867 Seemed like Josh loved the obvious jerk having his worst traits foreshadow him as a true villain. Looked like it caught him off guard.
I really liked Solas. His jerkass demeanor was a good thorn in my Inquisitor's side- keeping my behavior checked in some ways as the rest of the world started treating me like Second Jesus
I never had too much of an issue with him. I think I always picked the options he liked because I don’t remember him ever chewing me out.
Cool, you did a countdown that's the opposite of that previous list.
How is this the opposite of Lightning Bosses?
@@ArcCaravan
Not that one.
@@Rusticabcd The opposite of 2020 Fails?
@@ArcCaravan
Not that one either, how about this, what is the opposite of the title of this video.
@@Rusticabcd Bottom One Hated Locations That Don't From Love
Sorry if this schtick went on too long. Couldn't help myself.
6:36 Xenoblade shoutout made me smile
Uh... Josh? I think you forgot something covered in KH 2.
Namely, that they bring up that it's not that Darkness is inherently evil, *it's that evil people gravitate towards it.* It's a question of a tool being used by evil people. It's a quick but risky path to power but it isn't inherently bad. Riku basically stands as a huge middle finger to the idea that it can only be used by villains and shows that the good guys can use it as well.
This isn't to say you're wrong on Erquas, he certainly had reason to be paranoid (as, by the end of hte day, darkness is still dangerous), he just ends up showing that Light isn't perfect either.
And really, at this point, everything just falls into place because timey wimey stuff.
Also, on the Tubba Blubba thing, Bow DOES say 'yeah, I'm gonna get the boos to stop picking on him. It was fun while it lasted though'. Just to be fair.
With Edelgard, I liked her philosophy and not her methods. There is actually a video that compares her and Rhea and how she will always lose as she falls in the same traps as Rhea. Also I'm with Ari. Dimitri is best boi.
Preach
I’m with Josh, but Dimitri is cool too.
I'm always a Blue Lions kinda guy, I'm usually more amazed with Dimitri's development... at least if his route is picked.
@@ChrisX_212 he’s still entertaining to watch. It just hurts seeing my boi suffer
I want to add a note about Solas. Romancing him and then encountering him in Trespasser makes that scene more emotional charged and gives him this really bittersweet moment of, you can tell he really wants the romance to go further but he feels duty bound to "fix" his mistake.
Did that my first route because a friend suggested it. Trespasser emotionally broke me
As soon as I saw ol' egghead in the thumbnail, I clicked immediately on the video.
Someone actually did a fanart of Caim and Chara being the same character with Angelus playing the part of Sans before getting board and going to get something to eat.
Franziska von Karma from the Ace Attorney series. She’s every bit as arrogant and condescending as her father and just as apt to use dirty tactics to win such as withholding case breaking facts and submitting illegal evidence just to win when you first meet her. Worse still, instead of being able to command the course of the trial with just her words and the snap of her fingers like her father, she uses a whip when she doesn’t get her way, and she’ll use it on literally anyone. Even in the games that come after where you have to work with her on occasion, very little of this behavior changes. And why is she like this? Because of a one-sided surrogate sibling rivalry with Edgeworth.
So why do I care so much about what she’s doing eight years later?
I know what you mean
Honestly sounds like a petty reason for her being a jerk.
@@ArcCaravan It really is as petty as it sounds. Once I typed all that out, the more I thought about it, the more the term “spoiled brat” seemed to fit her character. And yet, somehow, there’s some kind on indearing element to it that I don’t understand that makes me curious as to what she’s been up to during the time skip.
so i actually laughed out loud when your list of satan's different names broke directly into an H and R block commercial that starts out by saying the name of the company XD
The story of Caim seems like a game of Dungeons and Dragons where the DM is intentionally shoe-horning the party's paladin into a situation to make the paladin lose his powers because the DM things it'll be a neat plot point.
Edelgard is a good choice for this list.
But Arvis from Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War (FE4) is on a whole different level compared to her.
I have to agree with Arvis, the fact that he killed Sigurd and used a memory spell on Deirdre to erase everything is a red flag, but then she decided to have two children, Julia and Julius, thanks to Arvis, that's when I really draw the line. I would have easily hated Arvis for these actions if not more, but then he slowly tried to redeem himself by helping Ishtar take the children that she captured to safety because of his son, Julius, was slowly losing himself and becoming the vessel to the dark dragon Loptous. I still won't forgive him for what he did in the past.
@@WrathNebula321 well considering this story is supposed to be made with story in focus... and Genealogy is touted as one of the best stories
I think it became part of their view into making a story, and if you look at it Edelgard is similar to Arvis, as Arvis was blackmailed due to his heritage and if it came out the emperor had loptyr blood it would cause a revolt and likely his death.
Edelgards was built fully on tradegy and planning from the TWISTD
@@rontheauraknight9606 You have a point there.
@@WrathNebula321 I hate to be that person, but it was Manfroy that wiped dierdre's memory, not Arvis. Just wanted to point that out.
@@pizzaeater8905 Oh, my memory must be foggy then, thank you for correcting me
"Claude doesn't kill everyone to achieve it"
Claude: *kills everyone to achieve it, and doesn't even achieve it on screen*
While I didn't hate him, I was honestly disappointed with his ending, of the three house leader romances, his was the only one that didn't give me any satisfaction.
To be fair, Claude only kills if he knows for certain that someone’s a threat; he prefers to observe and gather intel before deciding whether on not to take action. If you have Claude confront Dimitri at the Battle of Gronder, he only resorts to attacking the prince after realizing that Dimitri is too far gone to listen to reason.
@@Cure_Hana To be fair, except for the crazy dimitri section in blue moon, every house only kills those who are a threat to their plans or themselves
And besides, I find it funny that you mention the battle of gronder, because dimitri is the one who tries to send a message to claude before the battle in his route (the messenger gets killed, so it fails), while claude just charges into battle without any attempt of communication XD
Anyway, the original comment it was just a mention about how claude is the one that kills more factions in his route and is the only one who doesn't get his objective , nothing more
_Sees the Dangaronpa Style intro_ You had my interest, now you have my attention.. time for my to pull my stick for Oscar's lists and give my thought on your picks Joshy-boy.
10: Fantasy Darth Vader but done better? Nice.
9: What would you do survive a Robot bear army?
8: Everyone is the hero of their story, but not everyone see that story the same way. Very meh for me.
7: Paradise Lost got nothing on this guy.
6:The road to hell is path with good intentions and a new foundation and home does nothing if there is none left to use it. (Also Go Team Deer)
5: If this guy was in a comic book he'd be one of Batman's rouges. Also being a brother he get simpathy from me.
4: When Bioware gets to write well, weren't those the days.
3: The Numbers don't lie, still always awesome to see Mark Hamill
2: He really needed a hug... or to move.... I'd still give the big guy a hug.
1: Nothing like a reminder that WAR IS HELL! to spice up a top spot.
See you next time Josh.
I really like the villains that don't see themselves as the villain they actually see themselves as the Hero trying to save the world in their own way unaware that their way is a lot more horrifying than the actual hero. they essentially do every evil deed thinking it's for the greater good as in as soon as they're done and they have cleanse the world of whatever they think is evil there would be peace
You'd probably like the Legacy of Kain series then.
Man, I can't tell you how long I've been waiting to hear someone else say something nice about Snow. Honestly, that willingness to help and never-say-die attitude caused me to gravitate toward him from the outset. And seeing him accept responsibility for his actions made it all the more sweet.
We’re glad to see you making content still and roasting things that deserve it since you’re the scorcher on fire.....I’ll see myself out.....
A personal favorite choice of mine on this subject is ff9's Kuja. The guy is a egocentric killer and social manipulator who revels in every second of both. So to find out that he was used in the end kinda makes me feel for him.
I think the ending implies there was intended sympathy.
That was because his father/creator Garland favored Zidane over him due to his ability to activate a Trance, which could be one of the few things necessary to help wipe out 90 percent of then population on Gaia in order to fuel the Iifa Tree which in turn, helps restore Terra’s Crystal. Basically, both Zidane and Kuja were nothing more than weapons, tools for Garland to use in order to help save his home planet at the cost of another planet.
Honestly though the section with Caim as someone who has played the game back in the day you realize that if you were to have the crazy elf woman with you she would have gotten a free meal of child flesh.... Yes she is particularly insane and will eat children.
tubbablubba still scares the hell out of me, he was my first invincible enemy that i ran into, and it freaked me out i couldn't hurt him
In regards to Edelgard I agree with her ideals but not the way she goes about achieving them. She instigated a continent wide war that resulted in the deaths of thousands innocent people. I felt a similar relationship with her as Kenobi did with Vader. The student went rogue due to their ideals being used to manipulate them by an evil force, and then turned on the teacher and her allies to fulfill their ambitions in a destructive way.
Even if he could speak, would the child soldiers listen, it sounds as if they are in a cult situation and you know how difficult it is to get cultists to listen to actual truth and reason
In the context of the story, they were conscripted into the army
Yeah, I wouldn't entirely know that, I don't have the system or haven't played the game so
@@blackliquidsorrow8249 When we are talking about child conscripts it isn't much different from a cult honestly. They were probably indoctrinated during training.
Ah yes Kaim.
Best character of the Drakengard franchise!
It's funny that Drakengards 2 MC is pretty much the opposite, a hated character we are supposed to like, lol.
[p5r spoilers]
tbh id love to see josh analyze dr maruki, his goals and his ideals and how they were twisted and transformed into what they became. he seems to keep hinting at maruki - both in the bosses you dont want to fight list and this list as well, with him being featured in the opening. especially considering that maruki's goals are pure and just at the end of the day, its just his execution - brainwashing and essentially causing reality to stagnate - makes it fall apart. this could be bc its 2/2 where i am and im thinking about that but...
Reality “stagnating” in utopia is a good thing. There’s no need to anything to change if everything is completely ideal. And brainwashing? He makes people happy. That’s a good thing. Did you not see how happy people are in the actualisation ending? That’s the best ending.
I was hoping mister badd from neptunia victory to be here considering he, along with the other seven sages, kidnap orphaned kids, feeding them CPU crystals and turning them into small monsters, but ultimately caring for them out of a sense of guilt and responsibility. I guess you could at least consider him an honorable mention since in one chapter, he outright refuses to let his kids fight and ends up facing the cpu's alone.
Hmmm. Maybe an honorable villains list is in order.
"Just shows that Golden Deer was the best route"
"LIES AND SLANDER"
Girl, you tell 'em!
Nah it's Blue Lions
Sorry teach, Golden Deer is the goat and we all know it
@@theduelist455 also claude is bangable in 1 route so...
Blue Lions for life!
Zealots. Fear me
Sure snow may come across as immature but it's not like he stabbed that woman in the gut, he jsut failed to hold onto her long enough to pull her up, meanwhile Hope is screaming and carrying on and acitng like Snow intentionally killed his mom.
and as you said, Snow is the ONLY one actively trying to do something about the greater problem, while Lightning's solution was just aimless, wanton murder and ignore her own sister's words and we're supposed to like HER.
Edelgard actually happens to be my favorite of the Lords, with Crimson Flower being my favorite of the routes....
....I’m not apologizing.
Crimson Flower FTW
Cheers my loyal brother
Yeah I'm a fellow Black Eagle also, and to a large extent, Edelgard got my support as well. Maybe not necessarily the methods (that is a huge can of worms to discuss however), but easily the goals. And as my first Fire Emblem lord (Three Houses is my first FE game), she did not disappoint.
Big agree dude. Black Eagles for the win!🙌🏽
Nor should you. Crimson Flowers was awesome, not only because of Edelgard, but it's the route where you get to betray Rhea and later kill her. I kind of hate Rhea
I feel like you’re fundamentally misunderstanding how Drakengard is supposed to make you feel. Yoko Taro designed the game’s world to be one full of broken, insane people. Caim isn’t a lunatic to criticize the player; he’s a lunatic because in order to gleefully massacre thousands for ANY reasons, he’d have to be. The child soldiers scene is supposed to drive home that Caim has zero mercy in his heart for the Empire.
OH HECK, DID NOT SEE THE NUMBER 1 COMING...BUT I AM SO GLAD 8D I got it on my shelf and weird as the execution is, I love it too much for its creative ideas and weirdness. (setting some space down here to add more without spoiling the top of the list)
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I definitely can see the point on that mentioned segment for the child soldiers, but I almost feel like the Ludo-dissonance could've also been seen as intentional, cuz the general tone of the game is nothing short of 'insanity'. As each seal falls one by one and the game progresses, going from a typical hack and slash 'save this person/save the world' scenario, soldiers go mad, your own party isn't right in the head one way or another, and the world order itself just seems to dissipate into a place where old or young, human or not, no one is safe. To Caim, the final answer -be it for survival or for a rescue or any other objective- must be reached with bloodshed and slaughter, and it so happens he's good at it, it's his job, and he'll likely enjoy it or not care for what kind of opponents he faces.
Just my angle of seeing it but I totally see your way as well, gameplay and some limitations of back then adding to the weird execution. There's some fun tidbits on the game's creation as well if ever you look more into it. Great list tho, keep up the good work!
Honestly seeing where the new kh arc may be going. Light may finally show off just how bad it can be too.
How have I never noticed Eraqus' name trick?
Not sure
Probably because it wasn't relevant.
That last segment made me respect Yoko Taro even more than I already do.
Respect? You know this is a list of characters made sympathetic _unintentionally,_ right?
@@kylestubbs8867 What I mean is, how he was able to learn from the mistakes of his past, and do things better
@@alphared920 Okay, fair.
@@kylestubbs8867
i would argue solas is sympathetic though
@@chongwillson972 Oh? Please do. It was hard to follow Josh’s explanation.
Velvet from Tales of Berseria's another contender, yeah, she goes on a rampage against Artorius for murdering her brother and getting turned into a demon, but you still feel bad for her, because she was a victim of circumstance too. Even then though, she still has some traits that are likable, such as cooking, and she develops a close bond with a Malak she "kidnaps" and gives him her dead brother's name. Like I said, she's basically Lightning done right.
Not to mention the village Velvet grew up in basically sold out her older sister, who was pregnant with Arthur’s child to the Deamon Brigands just so they can save their selfish assess.
Eraqus
Square
.......HOW DID I NOT REALIZE THIS?!!!!!!
Ikr
And that's not even the first case of that in the series
Yen Sid is Disney spelled backwards (although Yen Sid has existed for much, much longer than Eraqus)
You know, I think Handsome Jack can still qualify for this list. Just not Borderlands 2 Handsome Jack.
That’s right, I say The Pre-Sequel Jack deserves a mention here. We’re obviously supposed to hate him by the end as he’s crossed the Moral Event Horizon and become the Jack we love to hate in 2, but his earlier sociopathic actions, like killing Felicity, were necessitated by circumstance, and while he doesn’t show much in the way of empathy, welcome to Borderlands! Even the good guys are sociopaths most of the time! Jack is no worse than your average quest giver.
Lilith, Roland, and Moxxie betrayed Jack without even trying to address their issues with his plan man-to-man, not to mention trying to kill his whole crew in the process, a crew including Claptrap, Roland and Lilith’s friend and ally from Borderlands 1. This moment made him merciless, but what really drove him insane was Lilith scarring him at the end out of spite. She could have killed him, but didn’t. She wanted to hurt him. In retrospect, the events of TPS make Jack’s torture of Lilith in 2 kind of cathartic.
“Well, what about Angel?” I hear you ask. “Jack enslaved her as a kid to do his bidding! And this was before TPS, when he was supposedly a good guy!” HE HAD NO CHOICE. Angel’s siren powers were uncontrollable, and BD3 shows they resulted in her mother’s death. He clearly loves Angel, and did what he could to make her confinement comfortable, but it would never be enough.
My point, TPS Jack *is* a hero by Borderlands standards throughout most of the story, and it was Lilith, Roland, and Moxxie who created the monstrous Handsome Jack, and not once do they admit his existence is their fault, especially Lilith, even when Athena basically points this out to her.
Side note: Lilith probably deserves to be on the other list because of TPS and her treatment of Athena. Man, I hated her.
You ever notice all the Berserk references in Drakengard? That's because Caim was created when Yoko Taro asked, "What if we took Guts from Berserk, only without the restraint that keeps him from simply murdering everyone around him?"
While I truly don’t see how the Iris Heart scene is interpreted as her harassing IF, I do appreciate you taking the time to mention it and addressing the fact that it isn’t necessarily what you originally made it out to be. Thank you for that
Plus if you don't any better it looks like that.
Honestly about the Warriors of Hope. Those kids could’ve died for real and I would not have cared. Part of me would’ve said “good riddance.”
People get too lost in the kid’s personalities and the abuse they’ve suffered and forget that each one of them has a literal mountain of bodies to their names and take pleasure in adding to that pile.
Seriously, Masaru (The Red kid from the still) showed off his mountain of naked “claims” before his boss fight.
Jataro (The Brown Masked Kid) strings up his victim’s corpses as puppets and plays with them for recreation.
Kotoko (pink girl) uses a “groping machine” (I’m not making this up) to sexually violate and r*pe her victims before each kill. (Side note: Her boss intro is very well written and is actually what would happen with a trigger word. That I respect. Bad memories and a cringe you can deal with yourself.)
Monaca (Green girl) is satan herself. Caring nothing for her teammates supposed deaths and even physically and sexually assaulting them to get them to do what she wants. Her home life abuse wasn’t even what made her like this. She was just evil from the start.
That’s not even considering that those 5 were controlling the Monokuma Murder Machines as well as giant remote control robots. No matter how much they do to redeem themselves each one of those 5 children have enough blood on their hands to never escape the fires of hell.
The adults were actually very justified, imagine that suddenly the entire city is now crawling with death machines ready and capable of ripping people to shreds. And children are now running the streets and you see a few playing with your neighbors entrails laughing all the while. I’d be right there with the Adult Resistance. My question is: WHO THE FUCK WOULDN’T?