Great commentary, thank you for posting these. I have been pleased with the performance of every GSO I have owned or had the pleasure of using and trust your judgement on keeping the product top notch. Well done, Guy & Ellie, and thank you for sticking it through!
I just have to say. I love the 3V. It's the biggest reason I love to use your blades so much. Few years ago I literally stuck a 7/7 and a 2nd gen 4.1 into a tree and did pull ups with them.... just saying.....I did this after watching your rock climbing and break test against the semi bumper video.
It's great to see your insight. Metallurgy is incredibly complex - one look at human history readily demonstrates how much human ingenuity is lost over time in this delicate balance between art and science regarding steel treatment, composition, and hardening. I wish I had the time to spare to dive into it! :D Guess I'll have to leave that stuff to you guys. Thanks for the video!
I love the thin edges you put on. They cut better than any of my other knives with the same size blade stock. Hope the 4.7's start to work their way through the shop soon.
Will current orders have the non delta/new heat treat protocols? I'm currently waiting on a GSO 12, two GSO 4.5's (one standard and one bushcraft) and a TSK. I've been waiting a year plus on all of them at this point but I'd love to have any and/or all with your new heat treat protocols if possible? If not possible at this stage I understand and am more than fine with that. All the previous knives with the delta protocols have been great! Thanks, best wishes and God speed. Sincerely Paul Ehlert LEO Sup. Ranger Ret. National Park Service
All of the knives you mentioned have been hardened using our latest heat treat protocol. We are very, very happy with the performance and we know you will be as well!
What about existing pre-orders that were advertised as having the delta protocol? I have a GSO-6 on order and one of the things I was most interested in was the specific heat treatment.
What about a differential quench to make the edge retention/harder, while it keeps the rest of the knife a bit softer for shock absorbion? Perhaps even a cryogenic treatment if V3 has an effect from it. Have they tried Crucibles recommended treatment?
All of our steel is heat treated using the best techniques possible to ensure excellent all around performance. Each batch of knives goes through multiple temper and cryo cycles and we're hardening the blades using the temperatures the steel was designed for. Our edge holding has never been better and I'm glad we made the switch to our latest heat treat protocol.
* What do you mean when you state that CPM 3V with Delta low temp protocol makes the steel “fickle” to work with after heat treat? Are you running into overheating of blades in surface or bevel grinding, i.e. losing hardness/temper at chosen machine speeds? * Are you still using Peters to heat treat all of your blades? * What about the Delta heat treating protocol prevents you from doing DLC and Cerakote blade coatings?
Some quick research: Cerakote application is an eight step process. Two of the steps require metal parts to be 1) baked out and 2) finish cured at temperatures between 250F to 300F depending on which flavor of Cerakote ("H" or "Elite") is chosen. Per Larrin Thomas' excellent book "Knife Engineering", page 404, low temperature tempering curves for CPM 3V are shown for 4 temperatures ranging between 275F and 480F, with Larrin's recommendation being 400F (Industry standard tempering range for CPM 3V is 950F to 1050F). The Delta3V protocol is proprietary, but it is widely known to be a "low temp" tempering method. Larrin's book suggests a Cerakote scheme could likely be worked out that is consistent with the Delta protocol.
Crickets from Guy because Guy is working 7 days a week. lol In all seriousness though, we shoot videos on this stuff because it is the most efficient way to reach the most people at once and it keeps us focused on work, which is where our focus is needed right now. If you want to call the shop and talk about things, I would be happy to discuss anything you like. I can work and talk but we don't have time to keep up with ongoing social media discussions at the moment.
@@ranger5281 Ok ,so I'll take a sec here before calling it a night. I'm not trying to get into a long discussion in a youtube comment thread but I'll share some of our experiences. Yes, those things all look good on paper and achieving the appropriate HRC numbers is pretty easy but the real world performance of the steel as a knife (read that as holding an edge the way I would expect from a given steel) is another thing all together. We've had both full thickness blanks that were ground post heat treat as well as blades that were fully machined prior to heat treat not perform as expected using the delta protocol. We've also had batches of blade processed both ways perform just fine the first go around. They all Rockwell test to the same hardness and were processed the same way, at least to the best of my knowledge. I don't know if the folks at Peters' forget to bless the oven, the starting condition of the material from the mill is slightly different from batch to batch, or something completely different is going on that sometimes makes the end result underperform. I understand what is happening during hardening in broad strokes but I don't have a degree in materials science or metallurgy. I do know that our latest heat treat utilizing the tempering temperatures the material is designed for produces excellent, predictable results.
So basically a custom knife heat treat isn’t well suited to production knives? I can say the knives I have used with the Delta HT (both yours and Nathan’s) are the only 3V knives that have any degree of edge stability. Have you thought of going to maybe something like Cru wear or 4V that have all the lateral strength a knife needs but way better edge stability than 3V?
The issue is reproducing the results at any sort of scale. To date, Peters' heat treat is the only commercial heat treating company who has been able to reproduce a pretty consistent result. Even then, we've sent blades back for reprocessing several times to achieve something more in line with our expectations. Other companies with similar equipment have tried and the results just aren't the same. They can hit the hardness number just fine but the edge blunts out relatively quickly. I believe the real key to success is a change to the material formula, to better respond to a low temperature temper. As it stands, our newest heat treat has great toughness and excellent edge stability. Yes, we've certainly thought about doing sprint runs of other materials and now that we've completely taken over our own manufacturing, you'll begin seeing those sorts of things more and more often. -Guy
Great commentary, thank you for posting these. I have been pleased with the performance of every GSO I have owned or had the pleasure of using and trust your judgement on keeping the product top notch. Well done, Guy & Ellie, and thank you for sticking it through!
I just have to say. I love the 3V. It's the biggest reason I love to use your blades so much. Few years ago I literally stuck a 7/7 and a 2nd gen 4.1 into a tree and did pull ups with them.... just saying.....I did this after watching your rock climbing and break test against the semi bumper video.
It's great to see your insight. Metallurgy is incredibly complex - one look at human history readily demonstrates how much human ingenuity is lost over time in this delicate balance between art and science regarding steel treatment, composition, and hardening. I wish I had the time to spare to dive into it! :D Guess I'll have to leave that stuff to you guys. Thanks for the video!
I love the thin edges you put on. They cut better than any of my other knives with the same size blade stock. Hope the 4.7's start to work their way through the shop soon.
The GSO-4.7 blades are now all perimeter machined and headed off to heat treat! Things are really picking up now.
Will current orders have the non delta/new heat treat protocols?
I'm currently waiting on a GSO 12, two GSO 4.5's (one standard and one bushcraft) and a TSK.
I've been waiting a year plus on all of them at this point but I'd love to have any and/or all with your new heat treat protocols if possible? If not possible at this stage I understand and am more than fine with that. All the previous knives with the delta protocols have been great!
Thanks, best wishes and God speed.
Sincerely
Paul Ehlert
LEO Sup. Ranger Ret.
National Park Service
All of the knives you mentioned have been hardened using our latest heat treat protocol. We are very, very happy with the performance and we know you will be as well!
@@Surviveknives
Excellent! Thanks much. 😊👍
Sooo, why fix what ain''''t brokeeee.3V was a great steel beeeeefore delta.
What about existing pre-orders that were advertised as having the delta protocol? I have a GSO-6 on order and one of the things I was most interested in was the specific heat treatment.
The GSO-6 blades in 3V still have the Delta protocol. Everything after that is our newest heat treat.
Thanks for the response. Glad to hear it, and I hope you guys figure out something sustainable in future runs.
What about a differential quench to make the edge retention/harder, while it keeps the rest of the knife a bit softer for shock absorbion?
Perhaps even a cryogenic treatment if V3 has an effect from it.
Have they tried Crucibles recommended treatment?
All of our steel is heat treated using the best techniques possible to ensure excellent all around performance. Each batch of knives goes through multiple temper and cryo cycles and we're hardening the blades using the temperatures the steel was designed for. Our edge holding has never been better and I'm glad we made the switch to our latest heat treat protocol.
* What do you mean when you state that CPM 3V with Delta low temp protocol makes the steel “fickle” to work with after heat treat? Are you running into overheating of blades in surface or bevel grinding, i.e. losing hardness/temper at chosen machine speeds?
* Are you still using Peters to heat treat all of your blades?
* What about the Delta heat treating protocol prevents you from doing DLC and Cerakote blade coatings?
Some quick research: Cerakote application is an eight step process. Two of the steps require metal parts to be 1) baked out and 2) finish cured at temperatures between 250F to 300F depending on which flavor of Cerakote ("H" or "Elite") is chosen. Per Larrin Thomas' excellent book "Knife Engineering", page 404, low temperature tempering curves for CPM 3V are shown for 4 temperatures ranging between 275F and 480F, with Larrin's recommendation being 400F (Industry standard tempering range for CPM 3V is 950F to 1050F). The Delta3V protocol is proprietary, but it is widely known to be a "low temp" tempering method. Larrin's book suggests a Cerakote scheme could likely be worked out that is consistent with the Delta protocol.
Crickets from Guy because Guy is working 7 days a week. lol In all seriousness though, we shoot videos on this stuff because it is the most efficient way to reach the most people at once and it keeps us focused on work, which is where our focus is needed right now. If you want to call the shop and talk about things, I would be happy to discuss anything you like. I can work and talk but we don't have time to keep up with ongoing social media discussions at the moment.
@@ranger5281 Ok ,so I'll take a sec here before calling it a night. I'm not trying to get into a long discussion in a youtube comment thread but I'll share some of our experiences. Yes, those things all look good on paper and achieving the appropriate HRC numbers is pretty easy but the real world performance of the steel as a knife (read that as holding an edge the way I would expect from a given steel) is another thing all together. We've had both full thickness blanks that were ground post heat treat as well as blades that were fully machined prior to heat treat not perform as expected using the delta protocol. We've also had batches of blade processed both ways perform just fine the first go around. They all Rockwell test to the same hardness and were processed the same way, at least to the best of my knowledge. I don't know if the folks at Peters' forget to bless the oven, the starting condition of the material from the mill is slightly different from batch to batch, or something completely different is going on that sometimes makes the end result underperform. I understand what is happening during hardening in broad strokes but I don't have a degree in materials science or metallurgy. I do know that our latest heat treat utilizing the tempering temperatures the material is designed for produces excellent, predictable results.
So basically a custom knife heat treat isn’t well suited to production knives?
I can say the knives I have used with the Delta HT (both yours and Nathan’s) are the only 3V knives that have any degree of edge stability.
Have you thought of going to maybe something like Cru wear or 4V that have all the lateral strength a knife needs but way better edge stability than 3V?
The issue is reproducing the results at any sort of scale. To date, Peters' heat treat is the only commercial heat treating company who has been able to reproduce a pretty consistent result. Even then, we've sent blades back for reprocessing several times to achieve something more in line with our expectations. Other companies with similar equipment have tried and the results just aren't the same. They can hit the hardness number just fine but the edge blunts out relatively quickly. I believe the real key to success is a change to the material formula, to better respond to a low temperature temper. As it stands, our newest heat treat has great toughness and excellent edge stability.
Yes, we've certainly thought about doing sprint runs of other materials and now that we've completely taken over our own manufacturing, you'll begin seeing those sorts of things more and more often. -Guy