Discussing Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

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  • Опубліковано 7 лис 2024

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  • @michaelnuzzo5698
    @michaelnuzzo5698 4 роки тому +53

    Something I think gets overlooked is that shouting "Khan" while cheesy and a bit overacted, is actually Kirk trying to sell Khan the idea that he's trapped. It's also the only time Khan doesn't take Kirk's bait and taunts.

    • @jaysonraphaelmurdock8812
      @jaysonraphaelmurdock8812 2 роки тому +1

      Agreed.

    • @YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999
      @YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 Рік тому +3

      Was it cheesy tho? I feel people give Billy a bad rap. It worked for me. I'd rather someone go all in and hold nothing back then not give enough or look like they aren't trying. I'm not exactly the world's most refined stage critic or whatever, but yeah... I'm with it. I thought he did good. Lol

  • @Galactus78
    @Galactus78 4 роки тому +79

    30 years later and Spock’s death scene still reduces me to a blubbering mess

    • @redringofdeathgamer
      @redringofdeathgamer 4 роки тому +5

      Sad to say, closer to 40 years. It does this to Zod as well.

    • @possibly_a_retard
      @possibly_a_retard 4 роки тому

      You'll enjoy this wonderful tribute then ua-cam.com/video/KLcc26-Mzac/v-deo.html

    • @Jim-wr9iz
      @Jim-wr9iz 3 роки тому +2

      Same. I'm 56. Nothing seems to choke me up in a movie other than seeing another man choked up or crying. Not to mention hearing Amazing Grace played on bagpipes. Instant tears. It destroys me. I think I just get too involved in movies.

  • @JWINDSOR
    @JWINDSOR 4 роки тому +50

    The film is a masterpeice and this breakdown of it is really enjoyable

  • @Asher8328
    @Asher8328 4 роки тому +32

    I saw this when it came out in theaters (yes, I'm dating myself), and although I understand the spoilers about Spock's death etc, were out I was too young to know about any of that stuff. So I went in completely blind, other than having years of watching the TV show, and to say my mind was blown would be an understatement. No other Trek film comes close to embodying what these characters are all about, or what Star Trek is all about. And besides all of that, it's a just a damn good movie to boot.

  • @Shadowman4710
    @Shadowman4710 4 роки тому +51

    Even after all these years, this remains the best of the Star Trek films. It's not flawless of course but for what is is....it's damned close.

    • @Spike-Prime
      @Spike-Prime 4 роки тому +1

      The one thing I could criticise about the film, though, is it's really bad science fiction. It's a great plot, but to give an example, the entire Genesis Planet subplot is laughable from a scientific perspective. In a couple hours, a bomb explodes which somehow manages to turn an entire nebula into a planet which forms into molten lava, cools, gets an ocean and grows plant life. That's just plain stupid.

    • @Shadowman4710
      @Shadowman4710 4 роки тому +5

      @@Spike-Prime Very true but it's not like the "science" in the original series was anything to write home about.

    • @jimithingjames
      @jimithingjames 4 роки тому +4

      @@Spike-Prime 1.) It IS bad Sci-Fi. 2.) Suspension of Disbelief - - USED TO - - be 'a thing'; back in the 1980's.
      Nobody would claim Back to the Future as "BRIMMING-OVER w/ Scientific ACCURACY." That's what makes these films 'Science-FICTION' - - as opposed to Science NON-Fiction. (^-^)

    • @Spike-Prime
      @Spike-Prime 4 роки тому +1

      @@jimithingjames Different people have (and have always had) different levels of acceptance for their suspension of disbelief. I know a lot of folks who thought the same as I when they saw the film in the theatre in the 80s.
      The Genesis Bomb is something I could accept from, say, a superhero movie or a comedy. But, for a science fiction film taking itself dead-seriously, it felt really out of place. But then, I had just read the original Dune novel before watching the film, which also had a terraforming plot, but one which made sense.

    • @jimithingjames
      @jimithingjames 4 роки тому

      @@Spike-Prime That's a fair enough point(s). And, perhaps, I was being a touch glib.
      To the extent of ST2's being "a SERIOUS film" . . . (?) * * * Hmm * * * It features ALIENS . . . and FTL Space Travel . . . "in The 23rd Century". Which - - on an elementary level - - I believe we all recognize is (more or less) ridiculous.
      Say, however, we jump ahead to the 33rd . . . or 42nd Century . . . do we 'honestly' expect said story elements to be MADE REAL by that time? I've my doubts.
      One thing we CAN (seriously) predict about The Near(er) Future - - (is) Cinema Aficionados will regard ST2 w/ the same campy bemusement . . . as are The (OLD) Buck Rogers Serials, today.
      BTW: Kirk is 'basically' an amalgamation of Buck Rogers & James Bond.
      \\// Live long and prosper.

  • @mediaworldwide9848
    @mediaworldwide9848 Рік тому +1

    The first battle scene of the Reliant and Enterprise is pure genius. The way the music changes with each shot, reflecting the central character’s mood and purpose. Amazing.

  • @whattowatchrightnow
    @whattowatchrightnow 4 роки тому +16

    "I don't like to lose": Single best line in Star Trek. Ever.

    • @Spike-Prime
      @Spike-Prime 4 роки тому +5

      Personally, I prefer the other line from that same scene: "I don't believe in the no-win scenario."

    • @Idazmi7
      @Idazmi7 4 роки тому +3

      @@Spike-Prime
      Regulation 46-A: "If transmissions are being monitored during battle..."

    • @Spike-Prime
      @Spike-Prime 4 роки тому +3

      @@Idazmi7 "No uncoded transmissions on an unencrypted channel. You lied!"

    • @Idazmi7
      @Idazmi7 4 роки тому +4

      @@Spike-Prime
      (raises eyebrow) "I exaggerated."

    • @tk5800thesecond
      @tk5800thesecond Рік тому +2

      to me, Kirk has faced situations where losing means his crew dies, or a planet is destroyed, or some third thing. "I dont like to lose" his his way of saying "im not ever going to give up if myself losing means death for others"

  • @jaysonraphaelmurdock8812
    @jaysonraphaelmurdock8812 2 роки тому +7

    "His was the most....human." 😭🕯

  • @Schopenhauer7
    @Schopenhauer7 3 роки тому +5

    This channel is one of the most underrated channels on UA-cam.

  • @MerelyAFan
    @MerelyAFan 4 роки тому +22

    Wrath of Khan is a real triumph of both paying respect to the franchise and moving it into interesting places. Both Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer were outsiders to Trek, yet both fundamentally understood its appeal and in their efforts to make a film never seemed like they were attempting to seriously reshape what it was to fit their specific story points or themes.
    While the heavier naval emphasis rankled fans and Roddenberry, it feels like an effort to pay respect to the nature of Starfleet and illustrate that these are disciplined officers that are dedicated to what they doing. The death of both Preston and Spock are events that acknowledge both the more optimistic view of the Star Trek future and the nature of duty among members of the crew.
    Its also interesting that after so many initial drafts/movie ideas to make the first ever Trek film with more out there narratives with philosophical implications (and TMP asking very high concept cosmic questions) that WoK succeeded and has endured with its very human and relatable explorations of age and regret.

  • @Vulpes89
    @Vulpes89 4 роки тому +90

    From hell's heart, i stab at the youtube algorithm

    • @Spike-Prime
      @Spike-Prime 4 роки тому +8

      Heyup, I'll help with that!
      Apparently it also helps the algorithm if we get into a long argument in the comments too so... anything you wanna argue about? Haha

    • @olliemonsters
      @olliemonsters 4 роки тому +5

      @@Spike-Prime I think bananas should be banned. Pass go

    • @hamanu666
      @hamanu666 4 роки тому +7

      For hate sake, I spit my last breath at thee....youtube algorithm!

    • @ZoidFile
      @ZoidFile 4 роки тому +6

      He piled upon youtube's algorithm the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart’s shell upon it.

    • @Spike-Prime
      @Spike-Prime 4 роки тому +5

      @@olliemonsters Bananas are the best vegetable ever, roar, I hate the anti-banana crowd like you!
      X'D

  • @elmartillo7931
    @elmartillo7931 Рік тому +1

    Saw it in the theaters, as an 11-year-old I didn't know anything about rumors about Spock dying, and even when I watch it now it still gets me. And yes I have pictures of me wearing one of those horrible Star Trek Spock helmets hahaha

    • @elmartillo7931
      @elmartillo7931 Рік тому +1

      And yes I still think those are the best Star Trek uniforms ever.

  • @johnoneil9188
    @johnoneil9188 4 роки тому +11

    The Wrath of Khan is one of my favorite pieces of space based science fiction. I have always been more of a fan of Kirk than of Picard and this movie is a big reason why. It has a feeling of epic drama to it that I am kind of missing in the TNG movies. The characters feel very human and relatable. Who of us has not struggled with the prospect of growing older? But always remember that life is about more than that.

    • @Idazmi7
      @Idazmi7 4 роки тому +1

      Same. Kirk always resonated more with me than Picard. Picard is stuffy and pretentious.

    • @mainstreetsaint36
      @mainstreetsaint36 3 роки тому +2

      @@Idazmi7 Hey, I'm going to be that guy and go to bat for Mon Capitaine. There have been quite a few episodes of TNG that showed there was more to the man than his stern exterior and stiff command style.

    • @Idazmi7
      @Idazmi7 3 роки тому +1

      @@mainstreetsaint36
      _"There have been quite a few episodes of TNG that showed there was more to the man than his stern exterior and stiff command style."_
      Yes, TNG also showed that he is a rebellious old coot who is willing to break protocol for the dumbest goddamned reasons imaginable. In fact, here's a breakdown of what I saw, episode by episode:
      Picard is seriously willing to let non-Federation aliens murder one of his officers just because they were upset that he kicked over a potted plant. ("Justice", S1, E8)
      Picard lets his officers violate the Prime Directive by bringing a primitive life form aboard the Enterprise, unwittingly causing a religion to form around himself. When the situation predictably deteriorates, he ignores the counsel of the presiding anthropologist and violates the Prime Directive further by *_bringing another one aboard_* and openly demonstrating the Federation's technological superiority to bronze-age primitives. ("Who Watches The Watchers", S3, E4)
      Picard let Cardassia break it's treaty with the Federation and build illegal military bases in the Cuellar system, thus endangering millions by opening up the possibility of another Setlik III massacre. ("The Wounded", S4 E12)
      Picard _directly and intentionally violated the Prime Directive_ by willfully inserting one of his must trusted officers into a non-Federation court as a judge, and himself into the same court as a plaintiff, in an arbitration case that did not involve a Federation citizen or planet. ("Devil's Due" S4, E13)
      Picard turns a blind eye while his First Officer willfully violates the Prime Directive by attempting to interfere with a non-Federation planet's legal decision regarding one of their own citizens, and further attempts to stage a jailbreak for the accused. ("The Outcast", S5, E17)
      Picard encounters "Hugh" - a human who was kidnapped as a child by the Borg and 'assimilated' as one of their enslaved drones. After freeing him from the Borg, Picard _sends him back to his kidnappers_ and refuses to deploy a weapon that would destroy the Borg species - an action that later on cost thousands of Federation lives and caused several entire species to go extinct. ("I, Borg", S5, E23)
      Picard consistently runs his ship at far below battle readiness, and his First Officer is a disrespectful and impetuous fool with almost no discipline. ("Chain of Command" S6, E10 and 11)
      Picard is reprimanded by an Admiral for refusing to deploy the anti-Borg weapon before, and is given *direct order* to destroy the Borg the next time he encounters them. He just ignores the order entirely. ("Descent", S6, E26 and S7, E1)
      Picard disobeyed direct orders from a superior and compromised Federation security by _deliberately_ giving classified intelligence to active belligerents. ("The Pegasus", S7 E12)
      This is just what came to mind: I'm certain I could find more examples if I cared. In TOS, this man would have faced a Court Martial and Dishonorably Discharged. Instead, he gets a sequel show. It's enough to make a man want to jump into an active plasma conduit.

  • @cthulhupthagn5771
    @cthulhupthagn5771 4 роки тому +6

    Hands down this is my favorite Trek film, and probably my favorite SciFi film.
    Every part of this is perfection. Played to everyone's acting strengths.

  • @tallsmile28
    @tallsmile28 4 роки тому +8

    This was the greatest Star Trek movie

  • @Spike-Prime
    @Spike-Prime 4 роки тому +7

    Commenting because I really like Chuck's videos and wanna help this in the YT algorithm

  • @Zeithri
    @Zeithri 4 роки тому +13

    Both the death of Spock, and Data, makes me cry whenever I see them.
    I don't have much more to say than that. Though this was the movie that gave Federation pulse phasers for a while.. Pew pew.
    Also, I absolutely love Wrath of Khan uniforms, Jackets and all.

  • @michaelaker1621
    @michaelaker1621 3 роки тому +2

    The one thing I realized as a kid that no one mentions in this film: The Enterprise Bridge lighting was so much darker than in any movie. Meyer said in the DVD Director's Cut he did this to make it look like a submarine.
    It's been an ongoing inside joke with friends for years at weddings/events. "Enterprise ST II lighting".

  • @Kaname1981
    @Kaname1981 3 роки тому +2

    This and Star Trek VI are my favourite.
    An amazing Analysis of the film loved it

  • @chrisaguilera1564
    @chrisaguilera1564 4 роки тому +3

    This movie is so Shakespearean and I love it.
    - Good night, good night! parting is such sweet sorrow, That I shall say good night till it be morrow.

  • @rotciv97
    @rotciv97 4 роки тому +2

    This video is a perfect retrospect to this movie... And now I'm looking forward to rewatching the movie tonight. 🖖🏾

  • @dosomething3
    @dosomething3 4 роки тому +5

    Kahn is the most inspiring intellect in all of sci-fi.

  • @2bituser569
    @2bituser569 3 роки тому +5

    I can never watch the death scene of Spock without crying.

  • @windcatcher331
    @windcatcher331 3 роки тому +3

    Harve Bennett doesn't get enough credit. Kudos to sfdebris in recognizing what he brought to the film. TWok was the culmination of great talent coming together and just trying to make a great movie on a limited budget. Harve, Nicholas Meyer, the original cast (inc Ricardo and Paul Winfield among others)...and a 28 year old relatively unknown composer named James Horner whose soundtrack is criminally underrated. He brought scenes that would normally be tepid to life and brimming with palpable drama and tension.

    • @YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999
      @YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 Рік тому

      Didn't know til now that Horner was part of this work. Man oh man he is just a cornucopia of musical talent. I have loved all his film scores from the 90s on. I should see what he contributed to in the 80s, I'm sure this film wasn't his only work during that time. I'd like to think I'd love all the films I've grown to love just as much on story alone- but there's no denying the magic that a talented composer brings to anything they touch. Horner is deffo one of my favorite film composers.

  • @InteleVision-Vic
    @InteleVision-Vic 2 роки тому +1

    This was the last movie I saw with my Father in the movie theaters before his passing.

  • @tocotronicon
    @tocotronicon 3 роки тому +4

    Even just thinking about the death scene makes me emotional. The first time i watched this movie as a child i didn't know Spock would come back and i cried so much that my dad eventually drove to the video rental store that same night to get the third one so i would stop lol.
    I love these break downs, especially this one. Khan is really the best Star Trek film for me.

  • @AdmiralJamesTKirk
    @AdmiralJamesTKirk Рік тому

    This movie is amazing: The initial conflict between the Reliant and Enterprise is perfectly paced, a perfect build-up, gripping, and amazing music. And, Shatner, surprising, gives a great performance. We all know he’s a hammy actor, but director Nicholas Meyer had him take a “less in more” approach to his performance and it worked brilliantly. He proves he can act here. Who knew?

  • @jamiebraswell5520
    @jamiebraswell5520 3 роки тому +3

    I am very glad that Spock's death was moved back to the finale of the film. It would have felt extremely weak to sacrifice Spock during a situation as small as their power being knocked out and another shipping threatening fire...something no more impossible than many others the crew have faced. I really think that having Spock die during the first battle would have left fans angry. It would have felt like a cheap way to dispose of a legendary character. The Genesis Device detonation is a much larger, inescapable death that warrants a sacrifice. Thank goodness this was changed.

  • @ShadowFox178
    @ShadowFox178 4 роки тому +2

    As someone who has for years now, enjoyed your content. I can only feel that you don't get the views you deserve.
    Like your videos this was excellent and gave me a greater appreciation of Wrath of Khan.

  • @Greg87601
    @Greg87601 2 роки тому

    I really love hearing your talk about Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

  • @Pondimus_Maximus
    @Pondimus_Maximus 3 роки тому +3

    Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

  • @scionofdorn9101
    @scionofdorn9101 2 роки тому +1

    Best Trek story EVER made. Period. I will brook no debate on the matter.

  • @lukebisping1417
    @lukebisping1417 3 роки тому +1

    Found out Nimoy was actually Heart Broken when he was told his character was going to die in this film, which was actually a small part in why Spock died at the end of the film instead of the beginning, Nimoy did wanna keep doing Trek and was super excited to be part of the franchise, true, the oversaturation was stressful for him and gave him a slight attitude but the truth is he absolutely Loved being a part of Star Trek.
    Makes the film even better knowing that fact now.

  • @thewayfarer8849
    @thewayfarer8849 4 роки тому +1

    One of your best reviews, the literary references and review itself made for easy listening while I finished my degree. Glad they're back up

  • @Wilbur2187
    @Wilbur2187 2 роки тому

    This was what I was looking for: an existential interpretation of one of the best movies ever made. Thank you. LLAP!

  • @springbloom5940
    @springbloom5940 3 роки тому +2

    Wrath of Khan is a profound and brilliant film, in its own right, irrespective of franchise, or genre.

  • @jurassickaiju14
    @jurassickaiju14 4 роки тому +6

    I'm one of those rare guys who actually likes TMP, and I'll admit that I go back to that one more often than I do TWOK, if for no other reason than it was the first Trek installment I ever saw as a little kid and it's actually what got me into the franchise. But I'd be remiss if I didn't say that TWOK deserves every little bit of praise that it gets. Special props to the Mutara Nebula battle; while I'm not opposed to a Star Wars-style shoot 'em out, I love to see space battles that are based around unique tactical scenarios like that. There are comparatively few shots fired, and yet when they do they are absolutely devastating to both sides when they hit.
    But to this day the Ceti Eels always creep me out to no end, and I don't think anybody can really dispute that.

  • @glennledrew8347
    @glennledrew8347 2 місяці тому

    This was a very enjoyable essay!
    When I saw this during its original run, during that critical moment a single, plaintive female wail of shock and grief filled theater, "Spock's dead!"

  • @russellharrell2747
    @russellharrell2747 4 роки тому +19

    They tried to copy this formula several times but never came close to the success. Trek is best when it treads new ground, boldly going where no one has gone before.

    • @BioGoji-zm5ph
      @BioGoji-zm5ph 4 роки тому +3

      The few times that reusing the formula or themes of this film work later are when they reverse it, by making the hero (Picard in First Contact, for example) as the one who is obsessed with pursuing a foe who has hurt them in the past or a foe who has betrayed them (like Sisko pursuing Eddington in For The Uniform).

    • @digitaljanus
      @digitaljanus 4 роки тому +3

      I think what a lot of the later attempts failed to recognize is that Khan is not Kirk's arch-nemesis. He's not Moriarty or The Joker, eternally vexing James T in caper after caper. He was a villain-of-the-week who was more charismatic and memorable than most, and who really had Kirk on the ropes for most of his episode, but then Kirk completely forgot he existed until he shows up in this film. Allegedly Nicholas Meyer said about this film "Khan spent every day of his exile thinking about Kirk, but Kirk didn't spare a single thought for Khan." (If he had, none of this would have happened.)

    • @BrendanJSmith
      @BrendanJSmith 3 роки тому

      @@digitaljanus yeah. I think Kruge is much more fitting as Kirk’s mortal enemy.

  • @KatKaleen
    @KatKaleen 4 роки тому +24

    He went back and watched every episode of the original show. HE WENT BACK AND WATCHED EVERY EPISODE OF THE ORIGINAL SHOW.
    Take notes, Kurtzman. This is why you fail.

    • @Knightfall182
      @Knightfall182 4 роки тому +5

      I doubt that would help Kurtzman and his feminist friends.

    • @KatKaleen
      @KatKaleen 4 роки тому +3

      @@Knightfall182 Weird flex to bring up feminism when every character is written poorly.

    • @jamiebraswell5520
      @jamiebraswell5520 3 роки тому +1

      Kurtzman could watch every episode, but he still wouldn't do Star Trek right. Why? Because he is not interested in Star Trek as anything more than a propaganda tool for social engineering.

    • @KatKaleen
      @KatKaleen 3 роки тому +1

      ​@@jamiebraswell5520 In that case he's still failing pretty hard.

  • @wolfgangfrost8043
    @wolfgangfrost8043 3 роки тому +7

    ST II: TWoK has a lot in common with Star Wars: A New Hope. It's a film that got really lucky to have the right balance of creativity & editing behind the scenes because cut together the wrong way it would've been a huge case of wasted potential. It was the film people hoped The Motion Picture would've been. TMP was alright, it just suffered from that sludgy 70's sci-fi pacing.

    • @mallninja9805
      @mallninja9805 3 роки тому +1

      I just watched the extended cut for the first time, and I have to say I agree with every editing choice made for the theatrical release. The extended scenes actually detract from the story and pacing.

  • @nickryan4126
    @nickryan4126 3 роки тому +3

    Someone did an analysis based on the scale of the Enterprise and the Reliant and determined that the Reliant actually has more internal volume than the Enterprise thus actually making it bigger.

    • @jamiebraswell5520
      @jamiebraswell5520 3 роки тому

      Internally larger makes sense due to the compact design, but otherwise the exterior is not really larger as it has the same saucer, the same bridge, and the same nacelles as Enterprise.

  • @AlSidre
    @AlSidre 4 роки тому +3

    I love Wrath of Kahn it is my favorite ST movie though I have fondness for ST3. I wish we had gotten some DS9 movies since most of the TNG movies suck.

  • @TevyaSmolka
    @TevyaSmolka 4 роки тому +3

    wrath of kahn is such a great movie

  • @illypziz...6800
    @illypziz...6800 3 роки тому +1

    Really enjoyed this retrospective. Kudos

  • @chrisperry7963
    @chrisperry7963 2 роки тому +1

    Absolutely love this movie.

  • @otaking3582
    @otaking3582 5 місяців тому

    My local movie theater showed this film as part of one of their retro nights. Having only seen Ricardo Montalbán in Spy Kids prior to this, I was surprised to see him walking without the aid of CGI..... and not talking about Corinthian leather......

  • @KY0UJlN
    @KY0UJlN 2 роки тому

    You've helped me see this film in new ways. Fantastic insight.

  • @mrmeerkat1096
    @mrmeerkat1096 3 роки тому +1

    This is a brilliant and really insightful analysis of this movie. I would love to see the film with Spocks death earlier on and see how it changes the feel of the movie.

  • @wdcain1
    @wdcain1 4 роки тому +4

    What were your thoughts of the comic showing Khan from the evil mirror universe? I rather liked how he came off like the Roddenberry ideal human whose "doomsday" weapon is a library.

  • @robertleeluben
    @robertleeluben 10 місяців тому

    The Khannn line was Kirk himself being dramatic on purpose he had to give khan the pleasure of winning to put him off his guard, to guide khan into seeking out the enterprise instead of going over the communications. I saw this in the theater way back and if you ever get the chance at a festival or college theater don't hesitate to go see it.

  • @ZoidFile
    @ZoidFile 4 роки тому +4

    Very well done chuck, the theory that Spock might have died earlier in the movie was new to me and pretty interesting. I always found in pretty weird that Scotty dragged in death nephew on the bridge and I am now wondering how the scene might have played out otherwise.

    • @YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999
      @YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 Рік тому

      I always wondered about that too. It was certainly tragic and made an emotional impact, but it made absolutely no sense. What was the point of it? What was he hoping to accomplish??? Shouldn't he be taking him to sickbay?? I mean what the heck can anyone do for him on the bridge?? It was a poignant visual but frustratingly pointless.

  • @FNGLHR
    @FNGLHR 4 роки тому +2

    You think Khan ever finished Moby Dick? Cause like... he should've known it doesn't work out so well for Ahab.

  • @DarinRWagner
    @DarinRWagner 4 роки тому +6

    The Reliant actually has more internal volume than the Enterprise. EC Henry did a video about this. This could be considered a reason why Starfleet used Miranda class vessels well into the Deep Space Nine era while the Constitution class ships went away decades before.

  • @superkeaton9912
    @superkeaton9912 4 роки тому +13

    Positive comment sacrifice for the Algorithm

    • @hamanu666
      @hamanu666 4 роки тому +1

      All hail the mighty algorithm!

    • @TheZetaKai
      @TheZetaKai 4 роки тому

      I concur; we must praise the Algorithm to exalt our preferred content creator.

    • @kirkjohnson9353
      @kirkjohnson9353 4 роки тому +2

      I love the Algorithm. I have designed my whole life around it.

    • @laurapeter3857
      @laurapeter3857 3 роки тому

      All hail the almighty algorithm!

  • @corbindalis
    @corbindalis 4 роки тому +2

    Great breakdown as usual

  • @vincentadultman8527
    @vincentadultman8527 4 роки тому

    SFDebris still out here f-ing things up? I'm here for it.

  • @xenofett7008
    @xenofett7008 2 роки тому +1

    I'm not a Star Trek fan, but even I admit this is a damn fine film and I'm glad it's in my library. Khan is a excellent foil for Kirk. Yes Kahn is defeated and the Enterprise escapes certain doom, but Kahn (even though he doesn't live to see it) still manages to hurt Kirk personally by taking Spock from him.

  • @Jim-wr9iz
    @Jim-wr9iz 3 роки тому +2

    One of the triumvirate of SF sequels that were better than the original movies. The other two of course being T2:Judgement Day and Aliens.

  • @EyesOfTheInternet
    @EyesOfTheInternet 3 роки тому +2

    Is there a "Discussing Star Trek I"?

  • @1701EarlGrey
    @1701EarlGrey 4 роки тому +7

    KHAAAAN !!!😂

  • @dragonskunkstudio7582
    @dragonskunkstudio7582 4 роки тому +1

    Great discussion.

  • @cheedevulan8547
    @cheedevulan8547 2 роки тому

    U r a great scholar, sir. Love yer Trek vids. 👍😁🖖

  • @CoyotesOwn
    @CoyotesOwn 4 роки тому +9

    All hail the almighty algorithm.

    • @kirkjohnson9353
      @kirkjohnson9353 4 роки тому

      I owe everything I think to big Al. I don't even WANT to think for myself at this point.

  • @abhcoat
    @abhcoat 2 роки тому +1

    Who would of thought getting to know the material before making a movie would actually be a good idea.

  • @whhyyyyyyyyyy
    @whhyyyyyyyyyy 3 роки тому

    sf debris back on youtube yeeey

  • @greenmonsterprod
    @greenmonsterprod 4 роки тому +1

    If I remember correctly, interviews recounted in Shatner's "Star Trek Movie Memories" revealed that Spock's death was originally meant to be a surprise in the middle of the story, very much like Marion getting stabbed to death in "Psycho". The problem was that the filmmakers realized that after Spock's death, the rest of the movie seemed anti-climatic. So, this, plus the script leak, led to the fake-out death in the opening and the (temporarily) real one at the end. Also, commentary on TVTropes brings up an interesting point: Kirk's shout of "KHAAAAAAAN!!" is purposely theatrical because Kirk knows it's a trick. He knows Khan tapped the communications, he's aware the ship will be repaired sooner, and he's arranged for it to pick him up earlier than Khan expects. Kirk is much wilier than Khan realizes.

    • @Maniac536
      @Maniac536 4 роки тому

      Chuck’s original review of the film makes mention of that. He was absolutely convinced the scene where the engineer’s mate died during one of the skirmishes (who was actually scotty’s nephew) was where Spock was supposed to die in the original script. He based this on the fact that after that scene ( up to the actions that lead to his death), Spock barely does anything or says anything for the rest of the film. Sure he might have a moment of dialog like the regula/cave transmission, but that bit could’ve come from anyone over the coms

    • @ZipplyZane
      @ZipplyZane 3 роки тому

      @@Maniac536 And it's in this version, too.

  • @gallendugall8913
    @gallendugall8913 4 роки тому +3

    Reliant seems larger... because it has greater volume.

  • @melterofsnowflakes
    @melterofsnowflakes 6 місяців тому

    How you can have two enemies that never meet in person and tell an excellent story with character, soul, meaning.

  • @JosephElliottColeman
    @JosephElliottColeman 4 роки тому +2

    Your videos are always a treat. You should run a patreon.

    • @moocow1452
      @moocow1452 4 роки тому +1

      He has one at patreon.com/sfdebris

    • @Tuning3434
      @Tuning3434 4 роки тому +2

      +Joseph Elliott-Coleman
      Chuck is close to predating UA-cam if he isn't it flat out. He is been around the block.

    • @JosephElliottColeman
      @JosephElliottColeman 4 роки тому

      @@moocow1452 Cheers pal.

  • @mitchellshuttleworth3204
    @mitchellshuttleworth3204 4 роки тому +3

    KHAAAAAAAN! KHAAAAAAAAN!!!!!

  • @TM_AZ
    @TM_AZ 4 роки тому

    Great movie and great analysis as always.

  • @2bituser569
    @2bituser569 3 роки тому +1

    Been nice to get a precise year of twok.

  • @schwarzerritter5724
    @schwarzerritter5724 4 роки тому +17

    Actually watching a show before making a movie out of it?
    Aren't you glad the times where directors did that are over too?

    • @rwg6357
      @rwg6357 4 роки тому +2

      JJ Abram: pshhh if you do that thn you have to follow the rules! a

    • @casinoroyalewcheese
      @casinoroyalewcheese 3 роки тому

      "I'll just watch the old movies and make one of those."

    • @gildor8866
      @gildor8866 3 роки тому

      Watching all of star trek in 1982: three seasons with 79 episodes plus one movie.
      Watching all of star trek in 2017 (pre-discovery): 28 seasons with 703 episodes + 10 movies (ignoring the animated series and the lens-flare movies)
      I can kind of understand why nobody wants to do it these days anymore...at least not for job with a schedule when to be finished

    • @brucechmiel7964
      @brucechmiel7964 2 роки тому

      He would not have to even do that. If your making a TNG era show than you only need to watch Key TNG and DS9 episodes. And have some nerd(s) help fill in The continuity or lack there of.

  • @maisiesummers42
    @maisiesummers42 8 місяців тому +1

    Probably the weirdest thing about this film is that the Kobayashi Maru test at the start has one cadet, and a bunch of highly experienced officers from the fleet's _flagship_ sitting there. It makes no sense at all.

  • @msthalamus2172
    @msthalamus2172 3 роки тому

    I agree fully with Nicholas Meyer. The end of the movie suffered by Bennett immediately undercutting Spock's sacrifice. Even at seven years old, as I was when the film came out, I understood that this character, supposedly ruled solely by logic rather than passion, hadn't only taken the action he took because it made logical sense. He sacrificed himself to save the people he loved, and the innocent youth who accompanied them. Bennet's immediate mitigation cheated the audience out of a genuine emotional experience, a genuine connection to the film's ultimate message and its relevance to their own lives, and eventual deaths. I would have appreciated the subsequent films more had Spock remained dead, for exactly this reason.

  • @_andyemcee_
    @_andyemcee_ 3 роки тому

    This was an enjoyable watch. Definitely a new subscriber.

  • @jesse7631
    @jesse7631 2 роки тому +1

    This Star Trek movie was by far the best of the TOS movies. But I thought that Star Trek VI - The Undiscovered Country was pretty well done also.

    • @YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999
      @YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 Рік тому

      1 could have been superlative (imo) if it was finished. I'm all in for a quieter more contemplative film, but it just needed more work. I don't know why they rushed it to production before the story was completed and fully developed.

  • @bustedsim
    @bustedsim 4 роки тому +5

    Regarding the death of major character, written by people who were outsiders, but understood the appeal and meaning of the original show to the fans, I find myself comparing this film to another that Leonard Nimoy did 4 years later... "The Transformers: The Movie," which also featured the affecting death of a major character. But unlike here, where the death is this hinted at, thematic through-line for the the film, in The Transformers, Optimus Prime's death DID happen early in the film, much like Chuck speculates that Spock's was to here. And you can see the differences in both how the placements of those deaths affected the tone and pace of the movies, and the impact of the deaths themselves.
    What is most interesting is that, unlike with Star Trek, "The Transformers: The Movie" was written by those responsible for the original series, with the toy company dictating character deaths... but no one realizing the impact their show was having beyond toy sales. They were responsible for this series, yet were totally unaware of the emotional connection they were having with their audience. So Optimus dies probably not even halfway through the film, and the rest is a meandering tale that, while also containing themes of vengeance and facing off against superior power, is not nearly as powerful as the death that essentially headed the film.
    What does this say about either films? What does it say about their respective franchises? First, that while both are still successful products of media and are talked about to this day for one, the flaws have remained a small part of the discourse for a substantive time, while the other, while regarded well by fans of the franchise, is to an extent defined by it's flaws, which a large part of the films discourse revolves around. Second, while both could be argued never escaped their image as "just a Star Trek, sci-fi film" or 'Just a tramsformers, toy commercial movie" I would argue one experienced universal acclaim and at least among fans and critics, rose above where the franchise was and elevated it for a time at least. Perhaps not fully in the eyes of the general population writ large, but a mark was made. Transformers on the other hand was disliked by both critics and fans, and the film's negativity shadowed over the franchise for a time. Certainly over season three of that show.
    As for the franchises at large, after ST:II, the franchise continued, building upon itself and building an expansive lore and myth about itself for a very long time. Transformers however succumbed to the "franchise of independent interpretations" and reboots, though that is also something that the "Beast Machines" series played a large roll in besides the original film, likewise being written by those who didn't understand the series and appeal of the characters, and who didn't watch any of the prior series' episodes)
    So, while both can create lucrative, long-lasting merchandise behemoth franchises, the approach of taking the time to truly understand the full appeal of a franchise, it's characters, stories, potential and emotional connection and building off that, regardless of the intent of why a new entry is being made or the message and meaning of the story, is the way to create something that will be lauded both critically and by the fans, something that will truly connect, will remain a highlight for decades will elevate the franchise to new thematic heights and will create a cohesive universe wherein all parts or sections of it will remain profitable and tied together, rather than disparate and easily ignored. For fifty years every part of the Star Trek brand supported the others, and interwove to create something that no matter where you started, you always went back, were always driven to look back at what came before. In the Transformers, and its iterative franchise where failures can be dropped and forgotten, where there is no grand unified appeal, the only thing carrying the older series on into the future is nostalgia, unlike Star Trek and its older series canon of history that'll broaden your understanding of the franchise and the historical context of the franchise as it continued.
    I fear that aspect of Trek might be dead soon enough. Trek will continue, but it will be more like "The Transformers" moving forward, rather than the future mythology it was.
    How's that for the algorithm?

    • @Idazmi7
      @Idazmi7 4 роки тому +1

      Bravo, man.

  • @Maniac536
    @Maniac536 4 роки тому +5

    KHANNNNNNNNNN!!!!

  • @robbybevard8034
    @robbybevard8034 4 роки тому

    Nice to have this video back again finally, even if it is truncated for the allmighty youtube bots.

  • @theronmitchell3073
    @theronmitchell3073 3 роки тому +1

    So is it a coincidence that they reference Moby Dick in first contact or, is this a call back to wrath of khan?

    • @chriswilson3126
      @chriswilson3126 2 роки тому +1

      It works for Picard's character as well as a callback to ST2.

  • @counterstructure4908
    @counterstructure4908 4 роки тому +3

    Engagement comment for the algorithm god.

  • @thetruth45678
    @thetruth45678 2 роки тому

    Funny how Kahn recognizes Chekov, consider he didn't join the crew until the next season, after Kahn was already exiled.

    • @AROtotheN
      @AROtotheN 2 роки тому +1

      Easily explained by idea that Kahn did a lot of socializing on the Enterprise, and Chekov was most likely a lower decks crewmate not yet promoted to the bridge.

  • @themidcentrist
    @themidcentrist Рік тому

    My favorite Trek Movie of all time. My biggest (but still minor) criticism would be that Spocks death scene was very well done, but in my opinion they made it too obvious that he would be returning. I think the "Remember" scene provided a good balance of hope and uncertainty by itself, with the rest of the foreshadowing being too excessive. I'm thinking that at the time the movie was made, having a downer ending was taboo and after the test screening they really wanted to eliminate having one as much as possible while still technically killing off the character (since Nimoy returning wasn't yet a certainty.)

  • @WDC_OSA
    @WDC_OSA 4 роки тому +5

    Earth is flat (I typically comment this for the algorithm)

    • @HebaruSan
      @HebaruSan 4 роки тому +2

      Try "Qo'noS is flat" around here

    • @WDC_OSA
      @WDC_OSA 4 роки тому +4

      @@HebaruSan The Dyson "Sphere" is flat.

  • @ronaldfinkelstein6335
    @ronaldfinkelstein6335 4 роки тому

    And Picard did some quoting "Moby Dick", in "Star Trek:First Contact"

  • @DarkLordDiablos
    @DarkLordDiablos 2 місяці тому

    The problem I've always had with Gene not liking the uniforms having a military look is that he essentially created Starfleet to be the military wing of the UFP.
    Starfleet aren't a ragtag bunch of starships following a set of rules laid out by the UFP.
    They are a organisation that requires those who wish to join have to get a set level of grades in school and then attend a academy.
    Not to mention they use the naval rank system and follow military discipline.
    Also that isn't something that was added in later.
    It was in the show from the beginning meaning Starfleet was designed from the off to be seen by the viewers as a future military.
    So Gene's dislike of the uniforms makes absolutely no sense at all and someone should have pointed that out to him.

  • @itubeutubewealltube1
    @itubeutubewealltube1 4 роки тому +1

    You have completely forgotten the real motivating factor for Kahn's revenge.. He self deludingly blames Kirk for the death of his wife, Macgyvers, who left Star Fleet to be with him. Kahn even wears her starfleet badge around his neck throughout the entire movie. I always had the idea that Macgyvers was pregnant when Seti Alpha 6 was destroyed and she died soon after when the planet changed orbit and the climate changed.

    • @jamiebraswell5520
      @jamiebraswell5520 3 роки тому +1

      You know. I never realized that the Starfleet medallion belonged to Marla. Wow, we truly do learn something new every day! :-)

  • @MatthewCaunsfield
    @MatthewCaunsfield 4 роки тому

    Is this a redo of the older review?

  • @daveroche6522
    @daveroche6522 2 роки тому +1

    So Ceti Alapha VI goes KABLAMMO! yet Star Fleet never had (any) indications/reports/sensors that would have flagged it? Could never figure that one out - KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN.................

  • @EMbrokehp
    @EMbrokehp 3 роки тому

    Good video!

  • @Banjo_Oz
    @Banjo_Oz 3 роки тому +1

    Is it funny or sad that pretty much every one of those awesome films mentioned in the intro (with a couple of glaring exceptions) were commercial failures and/or were critically panned/ignored?

  • @2bituser569
    @2bituser569 3 роки тому +1

    Funny Terrell was a name used again for Duras’s illegitimate son.

  • @2bituser569
    @2bituser569 3 роки тому

    I’ve heard Nimoy didn’t include the requirement of Spock dying.

  • @Monkofmagnesia
    @Monkofmagnesia 4 роки тому

    According to the credits of STTMP, the uniforms were designed by Isaac Asimov.

  • @Redrally
    @Redrally 4 роки тому

    Bravo! *applause*

  • @optimusgotslimed3175
    @optimusgotslimed3175 2 роки тому

    You know I subbed.

  • @Spike-Prime
    @Spike-Prime 4 роки тому +2

    Commenting a second time for same reason as the first, haha

  • @thurin84
    @thurin84 2 роки тому +1

    as awesome as twk was. theres some glaring plot holes that have always really bothered me. theres no explanation as to how the improbable event that ceti alpha VI exploded and drug ceti alpha V into its orbit. how, given an event of such magnitude CA V remained even remotely habitable. and more important why the ceti alpha wasnt recognized by capt terrel and crew and how could they possibly not have noticed that an entire planet was now missing and mistake CA V for CA IV. it makes no sense.
    second is genesis itself. its essentially space magic mojo mcguffin. such technology is far beyond anything wed seen to date from star trek and has massive, universe changing ramifications that are never explored or even spoken of ever again. plus the manner of its function seems perfectly tailored to do what the story tellers need it to do. deux ex machina anyone?
    then theres the "spock murder room" as ive dubbed it. because it seems to serve no other purpose than to give spock a "heroic" death. its layout is improbable and improbably dangerous, and there seem to be no safeguards nor failsafes in case what happened ever happens. and where are an remotely operated equipment or drones as we have even in our time to render such tasks in dangerous environments to spare the needless sacrifice of valued human personnel. it all just strikes me as a writers dodge to make something happen that they need to happen. a gimmick.
    none of this, however makes TWK any less of a great story for me with some of my favorite characters that i grew up admiring and emulating.