Backstory is NOT Personality - Why Avatar's Characters Are Good Actually [REUPLOAD]
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 лис 2023
- Head to squarespace.com/rowanjcoleman to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code: rowanjcoleman
A common criticism against Avatar is that the characters are two-dimensional, archetypal, or very thin. This is a criticism which I find incredibly strange considering all of the characters have distinct and memorable personalities, immediately identifiable looks and costumes and all have their own character arcs. But perhaps there's a deeper issue with how audiences perceive "good" and "bad" characters. Let's find out!
Patreon: / rowanjcoleman
Discord: / discord
Special thanks to all Patrons and Members!
#avatar #avatarthewayofwater #rowanjcoleman - Фільми й анімація
Watch Patreon Exclusive Videos FOR FREE Here: www.patreon.com/rowanjcoleman
for free, you drive a hard bargain
i hope its ok to say i like you accent 😇
@@beepboop204 .... And the computer went: "Beep boop blupp!" 😀
@@subraxas Arf & woof & teehehe
@@beepboop204 Of course it's okay :)
9:37 On the subject of Doctor Who.
Steven Moffat: The title of the show is the question: Doctor Who? The actual title of the show says the Doctor’s name is important, but we’re not telling you what it is.
Russell T. Davies: There’s never been a single discussion in the office as to what his name could possibly be. You’d never come with anything good. That’s why it works perfectly as a mystery and an enigma because if you answer it and say it’s “Keith” or “Doctor vorutrulunda” or something like that then it becomes so ordinary and so prosaic.
The argument here about the Doctor is a major reason why i continue to insist that (when done right) the companion is the real protagonist of the show.
i also generally enjoy the lack of the Doctor wanting to bang his companions. TBH my ideal Star Trek would be all Vulcans and Androids with almost no interpersonal romances 😂
Do people still get annoyed when someone expresses their like of this film? The fuck is wrong with people.
I am a Zack Snyder fan. Hello and wellcome.
It feels like hating Avatar is the ‘correct’ opinion. I’ve noticed there are few moderates in internet criticism. It is the goat or the worst thing ever.
I like Avatar, I’ve liked it since I saw it at the cinema. I can confidently say I’ve never loved it, but it doesn’t deserve to get lambasted like it does.
I have been quite amused reverse engineering all of the advice given to them by the evolutionary biology consultants from the particular shots that emphasized particular things about particular creatures
I do find it funny when people complain about the Avatar films, and the complaints they make, you could easily say about Camerons other work. Fact is, people dont enjoy and go to see Cameron films for Shakespeare style stories, or Tarintino levels of diologue. He makes great blockbuster films with stories that while not always original, are usualy tried and true to be good. He is more of a visual specticle director than one who focus' on the nauances of characters., anbd he is bloody great at what he does. I love his work, and I love Avatar, But being a fan of his work I know exactly what to expect going into one of his films, and I dont come away disappointed
Spectacle*.
Exactly. Never heard anyone complain that Titanic is just Romeo and Juliet, never heard anyone complain that terminator is one big chase scene
@@Noob-yx1cu The fact that T2 hits a lot of story and action beats to the first, it almost is a borderline remake as well. But both films are still great
Cameron isn't Shakespeare, but he is solidly above average. Terminator 2 had better character development than like 90% of the supposedly more artistic movies that I've seen in the last 20 years. Cameron is plenty good enough in the area of writing, even while producing great spectacle.
People say Avatar is just Pocahontas in space. And I am left thinking "Cool, that means I don't need to watch a Disney animated bad-taste cultural appropriation travesty, and can watch some visually interesting SciFi instead!"
I never thought about the characterization differences inherent to movies versus television before
same, tis fascinating food for thought
The point about the different emphasis given to backstory in film vs TV is interesting and makes sense. But the heavy use of a video game example in this video suggests another possibility: that people who equate backstory with personality are conditioned by the way characters are presented in video games.
Hmm, thats one way to look at Sully, i saw him as someone, who was offered a lifeline, and then, a bit, held as hostage.
All those comments from the previous upload, lost in time, like tears in rain
Never really bought Worthington as an actor until his role in Hacksaw Ridge, that was an awesome performance
I thought we were supposed to be pulling for the humans. Man I was watching this wrong.
There’s never a wrong way to watch a movie.
Enjoy the movie the way that makes most sense for you.
Its easy to dunk on James Cameron because he's successful. He's a crowd pleaser. Cant say that about most other filmakers.Maybe Nolan or Tarantino. Thats about it.😮😮😮
Since Tolkien fooled us into worshiping LOTR 'lore' anything that provides lots of background story is considered 'well written.'
Notice how many layers of 'lore' Tolkien fans need to reach for to fill in their countless gaping plot holes.
I was amazed that in current year the second movie had a competent female and Male leads and they where both great parents. Wow 🤯
Eh. I feel the second movie waters down (no pun intended) neytiri's character. She sort of just has two character traits: mom, and fighter. She shows much less passion than in the first movie. Maybe it's because the second focuses on the kids more, but I still think she could stand to be more.. well herself.
The only thing I remember from the first avatar beyond “visuals nice” was how mustache twirling the evil army guy is. very unenjoyable. He drags the whole movie down. sad he is in the sequel as well, but there he was more tolerable, but i was still just asking myself why? why does he act this way? “because the movie needs to happen” is a bad reason. he is willing to die for his vengeance. would have been better to have the faceless corporation be the badguy and everytime they kill one army leader they just promote a new one. would fit the narrative more.
Love the characters of the Avatar movies, Jake and Neytiri really do feel like the “every couple” that anyone can project on to. Their dedication to each other and their family is exactly the stuff people strive to be.
I absolutely disagree with you. But it was a good video, and we're all adults here, so well said.
I take a few issues with conflating an "archetypal" character like you say quarridge and jake are with Aragorn and Luke. I can't explain Jake to some one who hasn't seen the movie. I can explain Aragorn to someone who hasn't. And Luke. You can also explain Harry Potter to someone without seeing or reading about him, buuuuut he is more of a Jake than the other two. The qualities you list about him are so generic "good" tropes that he is like everyone (who isn't honest about their short comings or fears). I am not saying he is a saint, but he just has all the standard hero tropes as traits. Sometimes Harry Potter gets angry and lashes out but the rest of the time he is also very generic and you cannot feel that he has been mistreated his whole life. He isn't lying and he doesn't hide items, afraid someone will clean out his cupboard any time soon. Cos, he isn't Voldemort! But Jake is just all those good qualities, and he is even handicapped. Wow what a cool guy. But Luke is the youngster from a far off place, farm boy, hillbilly, who dreams of greater things, trying to get a chance at those great things like piloting, seeing the galaxy etc. and over the movies he changes a lot, but he meets Obi Wan and the Force and Han with his own personality and you can make anyone see that teenager-way of trying to make it. He isn't trying to be the bestest good guy, he isn't saving damsels left and right, he isn't a paragon of anything, he isn't strong, he isn't the one who leads the rebellion. He is just a pilot at the end with a smidge of power and luck on his side. And Aragorn is an immense archetype, I don't have words enough for this. Everyone playing a Ranger in D&D is doing Aragorn! Everyone can imagine a dark, brooding hunter who has ancient knowledge, quick blades and tracking skills, and the lost king idenity is just as easy to explain, the sword that was broken, etc. They are powerful. Jake is just a standin for what the people would want to be. (minus the handicap). He is surface level. He is just a lot of words on a page, not a character.
Firstly learn how to space out your sentences.
Secondly Jake is extremely easy to explain to someone who hasn’t seen the movie.
“He’s a Jarhead with a heart…aka he wants a peaceful resolution to the conflict between the military and natives, and comes to a crossroads between doing what’s right and doing what is expected.”
He’s not a complicated character whatsoever.
I would challenge you to watch the movie again. Admittedly, he is in there to be the face of the audience, but the good guy is a bit of a stretch. He legit goes to Pandora just to get the money to get his legs back. He is almost constantly at odds and antagonistic with the scientists just because he is not like them. Lastly, he straight up sells out the Navi by giving key Intel to Quartridge to help destroy home tree. He becomes a good guy by finding commonality with the scientists and finding a place to belong with the Navi that ultimately leads to him siding with them over his own people.
This is somewhat a tangent from the topic of the video itself but I do agree with the statement in the thumbnail that “Backstory” is not a substitute for actual “Character and Personality”. I’ve seen way too many instances where the character stops being a character the moment their backstory reaches the actual events of a story.
Characters are only good insofar as the audience cares about them, and I didn't care about or connect to any of the characters in Avatar. I'm a big fan of some of Cameron's other movies, but Avatar just didn't do it for me. I don't even know if I'm going to watch 3, since 2 was so damn loud in the theater, my girlfriend and I were physically uncomfortable during the action scenes. And if you're not watching an Avatar movie in the theater, what is the point?
Good video~
Well, well said!!! 👍 👍
You say if we know how a character will react in any given situation then the character is richly characterized. I say this is obviously false because I know how a one-dimensional character will act in every situation by virtue of him being one-dimensional. The pure evil character will always do the evil thing, the pure good character will always do the good thing, etc. It's really the opposite: for a truly well-rounded character it will be impossible to predict what they will do in any given situation but whatever they will do will make perfect sense given who they are.
I agree backstories are a trap . The mistake is to have the important bits be prior to the series taking place. This is the biggest problem with Ahsoka's characters: they put all the good stuff in the past and half the story is the characters talking about what happened before the show takes place. The exciting stuff should take place IN the show/book/movie, not before. It's also the basic problem with D&D campaigns (people think that their back stories are important when really all that matters is what happens at the table)
My only real objection is that your take doesn't explain WHY so many people think Avatar's characters aren't memorable. Star Wars ep 4 is also full of archetypes with little backstory, but no one complains that those characters aren't memorable. Ditto with Ghostbusters or the Matrix. But Neo, Venkman, Luke are all cinematic icons. So I think there might be something to people's complains about Sully but I haven't watched Avatar since it was in the theaters the first time lol so I don't have a theory
There are plenty of things wrong with Mass Effect Andromeda, but the characters aint it. They are plenty fleshed out and in some cases you do have to deal with their backstory (Pheebee comes to mind). People put the og characters on a pedestal and fail to realize that Garris and Tali kind of sucked in the first game. Tali doesn't really tell you anything not dealing with her peoples or her mission for most of her conversations and then just stops having anything to say halfway through the game. Garris has the Dr. Heart mission, but afterwards also runs out of things to say and was pretty lackluster to use in battle. The two characters with the most development in the first game are Ash and Kieran, which is unsurprising seeing as they are the only two other than Liara that you can romance. Also, Liara was rough in the first game as well, her romance was rushed as hell. Depending on how you played, she goes from you killed my mom to want to bone way too fast.
The issue with the Andromeda characters is we didn't have three games to flush them out, just one kind of bad game.
Avatar is just bland and hollow. People try to find depth because it’s been unreasonably marketed as a cultural event in cinema. It’s just not aging well. I think if it was truly genius that time would reveal its secrets. It appears to me now just as dull and shallow as the day it hit theaters. Spoilers: there are no secrets. I think Cameron thought it was brilliant in the moment but he probably should’ve slept on it. Lol
always enjoyed Avatar. Excellent content!
In the movie Avatar, ever notice Jake was in the wrong branch of the military?
That's why he joined the Na'vi. 🤷♂️🙈
I feel like anyone moaning about a lack of characterisation needs to rewatch the film. Aside from the general well-roundedness of Jake, Neytiri and Grace, there are lovely details throughout that build upon the side characters. It reminds me of watching a TV series with how many short scenes and moments there are that purely exist to develop the characters. If they're archetypes, they're the perfect example of those archetypes.
👍👍👍🎥
We'll agree to disagree on this one.
I think they are weak characters but that fact takes zero enjoyment away from me in this incredible movie.
It's definitely not a thin story. it's just an overly familiar one. I don't think it deserved the accolades it received, but it's still a very good movie with excellent visual effects that pushed the industry harder than it had been in a while. I actually enjoyed the sequel more, but both films McGuffins were a little bit silly. The name "Unobtanium" pulled me right out of the movie and it never quite recovered on my first viewing. And the whaling for eternal life juice in the second just felt incredibly out of place.
Me in Spain on December 25th: "Happy Jake!"
I mean... 'Feliz Na-vi dad". 😅🙈
My favourite movie of all time. Neytiri was my crush 😄 I love that world so I am happy it's getting more sequels, games and comic books.
All excellent points. I'm still never watching Ferngully- I mean- Dances With Wolves- I mean-
Movie is similar to some other movie therefore it’s bad.
Rowan, you are right about Avatar, but you are wrong Rey in Star Wars and the Mary Sue trope.
I didn't even say anything about Rey in Star Wars haha
Avatar’s character are bland and boring, be honest…we mostly watch for the visual
spectacle not the characters
The characters are extremely weak in these movies and it leans to heavy on the spectacle of the entire thing rather than telling any story that has not already been told in better more interesting ways. If you want the same story told better go watch last of the Mohicans or Dances with wolves or even FernGully
In movie terms they are functional, which is bland at best. And the nature vs man message was so contrived that i ended up rooting for the bad guys. Now if you want something like that but better I would recommend the likes of princess mononoke or the planet of the apes trilogy. Clear man vs nature stories but delivered though magnificent storytelling.
This, right here. Planet of the Apes did this concept so much better.
I think you are missing the point of the Avatar movies
@@Noob-yx1cu all flash, no substance?
If you ended up rooting for the bad guys there is something wrong with you 😀 Both Mononoke and Avatar are great with message.
@@nicktitus4374 lmao that's whatever you like
I take it the tube bots blocked the original video.
Anything to stop creators being creative.
Do you really think UA-cam has some team of people devilishly tenting their fingers a la Mr Burns, trying to stamp out any creativity on the platform?
@@RobocopnikYes there is.
I know this video is meant as a an answer to discussions in sci-fi or action/adventure film circles and not in cinephile circles, but a part of your point is: They're not good, but they're enough, and meanwhile disregarding many reasons why one wouldn't like these characters like the acting (which I think is medicore at best and really bad and boring at worst) which is a key component in why people like the characters they like. Yes, these character may work structurally within in the movie, but they are not interesting or compelling beyond that at all. The way you present your arguments just seems like you're angry or dissapointed that more don't agree with your opinion (which is obviously a valid one) and saying stuff like "needlessly defending the most succesful movie of all time" just reinforces this idea. I really like many of your videos, but these "Actually, X is good" and so have been dissapointing.
Nope and nope. Avatar characters are good and acting is amazing
@@Noob-yx1cuThat’s not what this video says.
It says they’re minimalistic and that’s fine.
Any discussion with an “actually…” argument is bound to be somewhat cringe.
Though I disagree with your take, I doubt he is either angry or disappointed just that ironically like his defence of the characters criticism tends to be fairly minimalistic where his preference is to go into great detail though I think he forgets that typically those who aren’t passionate about a movie aren’t really willing to take the time to have in-depth discussions over why they don’t like it.
Sometimes it’s best just to accept individuals have their own likes and preferences.
@@ObsessiveGeek It was probably too harsh, but his use of disingenious and that he says he has a problem with people thinking the story is bad makes this video seem a bit irrational. As I said, his opinions are totally valid and I respect him for making this video, but all of it's just so superficial.
@darthelooi8021 I enjoy this channel overall, though I do feel his takes can become very pretentious.
Avatar suffers from "white man evil and nonwhite are good because" and they do nothing with that and the characters.
For those that see "white man bad and native are good because" and believe it to be reality or see nothing wrong with that then the story need to stand on the characters which it does not do well.
While I enjoyed both movies I definitely could have used less of Neytiri’s bigotry in the second… she gets no free pass from me on that lol…
Ah yes the contrarian
You got a problem with that pal ?
Seriously? None of the Avatar's Characters are good. They are all one-dimension.
Nope
@@Noob-yx1cu that is not an argument
@@ak102986 your comment isn't either
@@Noob-yx1cu it is more than your single word response.
@@ak102986 they hold the same weight
Please do tell us why the story is good HAHAHAHAHA. I know you have seen all the movies it apes and steals from, so you know that it does. It is like watching Man of Steel - it's like a cavalcade of every other super hero movie before it. This was so uninspired, so shallow, so standard, so done-before and so inoriginal.
steals from 🤣🤣🤣
dude why did you have to destroy your channel with this video(
Cope and seethe
Are you lost?