Hey everybody! just to pin comment here that yes i am aware of the hatchet job by Hambini, and that yes of course a response will be coming to cover all the very expected but of course still disappointing amount of lies and twisted information presented. Many of you will already see it for what it is from this guy, many will also be easily fooled as he is rather expert at his presentation, and so all i can ask is just be fair and wait for the correction, i think you will find that quite enlightening. It was always going to happen as i was on his shite list from many years ago when i questioned the data behind his bearing test proving steel is actually faster than hybrid ceramic. Testing which remains secret to this day. You may start to ponder how he is calling ZFC murky when all of my testing protocol has been open from day one, whilst his remains secret. In short here for the moment - when i can get to do the correction his hit piece will show very clearly if you were not aware before that Mr H is extraordinarily dishonest. You will no doubt then question a huge amount of his other content and hatchet jobs on other companies / people. I will need a little time with andrew on leave and me doing two jobs, i am under the pump. Likely i will use a day or two of my holidays week after next to put things to rights, and i will thank Mr H in advance for providing me this opportunity and enormous amount of material to work with to prove how dishonest and immoral he is. In the interim have a great weekend of riding!
Hi Adam, excellent discussion. Last year, I acquired a new mountain bike with XO T-type group set, black chain. I got the perception the wax lifespan on that chain is shorter than what I used to have on the previous bike, with XTR 12 speed chain. Initially, I degreased the chain using the solvent method. Then, when I waxed it for the first time, with fresh new wax on the pot, the wax was as hard as expected when it cooled down. However, in the following rewaxes, it was bit softer, and the treatment lifespan was lasting a little more than 3 hours of off-road riding before the chain became noisy. I reset the chain using UFO cleaner and the treatment lifespan improved, reaching around 5 hours now. However, it is still shorter than the XTR chain (around 8 hours). By the way, I use two chains in rotation and have similar results with both. I do flush them with hot water after wet rides. I also use the same pot for my road chains (Ultegra 11 speed) and did not notice any difference on them. So I assume the wax is still good. I saw in your bike fleet video that you are using the XX SL chain in your MTB. I wonder if you noted any shorter treatment lifespan on it? Thanks
Hey there! Yes generally wax bond to sram chains is very good - ie sram axs eagle. But srams Flat top chains are just a bit noisier / less smooth. I have had numerous feedback over time from long term waxers who when from say sram or shimano 11spd to a new bike with sram axs 12spd road - and were wtf is going on with the flat top chains - very quickly noisy etc. So it is flat top chain thing, once the coating gets fairly thin, it can no longer dampen things in those chains. I havent spent enough time on my mtb with t-type yet, ie literally only two rides since upgrade with the xx-sl, and then i have been testing the new ybn mk 12 flat top chain. So i cant say from direct experience yet in my riding re sram's t-type and being noisy early like their axs road flat top chains, but i would not be surprised if its the same trend. Whereas sram axs eagle mtb chains - they stay smooth and quiet on waxing for long stretches - 8 to 12hrs for most riders in "normal" offroad conditions which is a pretty broad loose term... And yes wax should be all good for a long time - the only tip i would suggest is to move to two pot system like a boss (check that out in the waxed life like a boss video) - its an extra pot and wax to start, but once set you are set up, and it is then SOOO easy re keeping 2nd pot wax mega for a very long time, you really extend the peformance of the wax deep into many many re waxes. For those riding offroad, 2 pot system like a boss really rocks.
Sorry to hear about your back trouble - I can relate after spending 4 months recovering from a back fracture after doing a giant wheelie ending on the asphalt! Hope you can get comfortable soon.
Thanks, Adam. Great stuff as usual. I really appreciated Josh's video but did wonder about those two points you brought up here since you've been pretty clear about removal temperature for a while. I tend to stick with the boring "natural" color chains but it's nice to know that the SRAM ones are just fine in case I want some oil slick in my life. Have a great weekend!
I've been waxing my chains for many years. The longest lasting wax treatment lifespan I have experienced was using a YBN Rainbow chain with Silca Hot Wax X with Nanene. Part of this result was that it was my race chain and I only used it in good weather, but I now have 600km on that chain and it still doesn't feel like it needs a re-wax, although based on the kilometers I plan to re-wax it anyway. Most of my chains have always been Dura-Ace chains with MSpeedWax (with excellent results), but I always felt like re-waxing them around 350km when they noticeably get louder
Hi Adam. I just found a research paper showing that for some unspecified type of wax, the surface tension and density both reduce by about 5% when going from 75 to 90 degC. I think this means that for 90 degC the wax will hold itself just as well in the small inner gaps while draining better from the unnecessary places on the outside of the chain. So I will continue to pull my chains after a long ‘soak and stir’ at 90degC.
Only just got a thermometer and looking forward to testing my crock pot wax temp for the very first time. It has two heat options and I use the higher one. Still takes nearly an hour to get liquid with chain sitting on top hating slowly. Never seems that hot (no vapours etc) but not certain. Plus the pull temp to be discovered. Next week will be ready to immerse.
Adam, your excellent chain efficiency and wear life data chart shows that performance results depend more on the specific model chain (e.g. Shimano Ultegra vs. Shimano Dura-Ace) vs. the brand (e.g. KMC vs. Shimano). I've never owned a KMC chain, so I'm not standing up for them, but I took your comments about KMC to mean they make inferior chains. Your chart contradicts this impression. For example, it shows that you rate both the KMC SL 11spd and Shimano Dura-Ace (11spd?) as having the same wear life (3 out of 5) and their chain efficiency with UFO wax (5 out of 5 - the best rating possible). At the same time, the Shimano XT/Ultegra 12spd chain has a higher wear life (4 of 5) yet lower efficiency (3.5), and the Shimano XTR/DA12sp has an even better wear life (4.5) with the same efficiency (3.5) than the Shimano DA 11spd and KMC. The KMC X12 12spd has a poorer wear life than their 11sp (2 of 5) but maintains its 5 of 5 efficiency rating. Here's the link for those who want to compare these and other model chains from SRAM, Campy, and YBN. zerofrictioncycling.com.au/chaintesting/
Hi - yes apologies if sometimes my communication is not a clear covering all aspects. Kmc chains have always tested with CS efficiency testing as being very fast chains. Wear life for some models tested is in the ballpark vs some others - and some models like the dlc, were very poor. Alas i cant test every scenario, and the wear testing was with a control wet lube, and thus not representative of the common feedback from kmc users re IM waxing not going as hoped with chains sounding and feeling dry quickly. What XX, or XXX durability treatment or level of low friction coating on what parts of chain across their chain models is seeming to make KMC experience re lubricant and wear life a fairly variable thing - and difficult for me to cover well in any document or video (and would also need more testing). I dont think carte blanche that KMC make poor chains per se, they are strong, they are fast, and on X lubricants likely have a decent wear life. But some models have for sure tested problematic re holding lubricant, as well as wear lifespan, and i find their marketing around DLC highly misleading. Hope that helps clarify a bit more
Enjoy your insights. I've never done dip waxing before, but, have been using KMC Gold chains for the past several years, and combined with White Lightning Clean Ride Wax Lube has more than doubled my chain life from approximately 2500 miles to more than 4000 miles when using the Shimano Dura-Ace chains I was using prior. I reapply the lubricant every 100 miles or so, and maintain a very clean chain. I have been very interested in trying out the Silca Waxing system for when my current chain demonstrates end-of-life measures. Today's video is the first I've seen any negative feedback on KMC chains. Antedotedly, my experience seems counter to your report of both performance and chain life. 🤔 I will consider your info moving forward, as I've also made note of where the White Lightning Wax lube fared in your lube testing. Appreciate your work. Thanks.
Anecdotally there is always different experiences thats for sure - ie you can find apparently brilliant results for some of the known worst products on the market (like white lightning!!! :)) and negative reviews for the best products known. its a big wide world of use cases and user experiences always for everything. But.... on balance when focussed just on one specific area - the feedback over time from hundreds to thousands of cyclists, as well as like for like wear rates in a control test - we build a solid picture overall. I would say if you have been happy with White lightning, you will do cartwheels if on a proper top lubricant! And also wear lifespan reports can vary a lot - ie i get some that say 4000miles but if the chain is at 1.5% wear - that doesnt really count etc. but also - if one is happy with their chains and lubricants and doesnt want to change or try something else, then for sure stay happy - but i will bet if you moved to something like synergetic or rex black diamond - holy batman your wear life vs WL will be..... longer.....
Thanks for clearing both of those up. The temp part has been floating around the internet for quite a while, but the coating was a new concern for me... I'll go pull my rainbow eagle chain out of the scrap pile.
ha yes sram axs eagle chains - all colours - get on great with waxing, typically very good amount of hours per treatment of smooth silky riding!! I only recently replaced my rainbow eagle chain on my workhorse mtb - it was lovely from day one through to end of years of mega training, and ybn rainbows same
Yeah, very glad you cleared that up right away. I've had no issues with my gold XX1 chain but after that last Silca video I was suddenly looking sideways at the rainbow chain that's been waiting to take it's place... She almost went on ebay.
thanks shadow and yes i am so very lucky, i am really a subscriber to having a bike for hopefully decades that it just a lovely, lovely machine to ride and enjoy by with friends, family, solo - it is named "Eternal" as i hope this will be a bike i can keep riding for decades to come!
I think, for one of the hour record attempts, Muc Off had a chain made for it that was thousands of dollars and impregnated with something if I recall. Almost like the non-stick on a frying pan. Not sure if it was nonsense or actually did something, but for that much money, it better do something.
sort of - they called it the 6000 dollar (well GPB) chain - but thats just a marketing thing ie take the amount of labour time invested in developing and testing the lubricant and divide that by X chains they prepped. Since they then went on to sell that product and thus recoup their r&d costs - really its just a normal DA 11spd chain with their at the time latest lubricant, it just made for good marketing headlines. Ie when the first model of a new car comes out - its not a 1 billion dollar car if they took all the costs of design and start up mfg and production to produce the first prototypes before then that new model starts rolling off an assembly line - its just hey this is the new car thats had X development to be X awesome new car, and the rrp is X. Heres something for you tho - now mind you this is rumour, so i cant say its fact, but..... i heard from MULTIPLE industry heads that the record was done on a wax chain. The nano lube was "developed" for the hour record, but it doesnt say it was used for the hour record. when i was having some chats with M-O one of the questions i asked was can they confirm in writing that it was used for the record, and no answer to that question. So maybe Nano was used, maybe it wasnt - personally if i had to place a big money bet , i would bet he used a wax chain, and all that stuff around nano was PR. Nano tested TERRIBLY in zfc testing.... the worst of the M-O products tested.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 It looks like your real issue isn’t with Hambini but with yourself. You’ve made yourself out to be the go-to expert on chain lubricants. Then Hambini steps in, dismantles your tests using straightforward math and commonly accepted methods, and raises concerns about your integrity based on some of your emails. After reading the beginning of that article, I would question your integrity and motives.
TLDR Hambini says dirt causes chain wear, which we all know, but doesn’t admit that oil/grease holds on to dirt whereas wax doesn’t. He also says he can’t be faffed with taking off his chain to rewax it but recommends you take off your chain frequently to clean it ultrasonically. 😂 The whole article is an ad hominem attack dressed up in “science graduate speak” to make it sound convincing. Sad fucker.
Hes really more like spamtini. Based on his size and mouth. Though hambini does have a ring to it. Almost like I could rub an old oil lamp and a hambini would pop out to grant 3 wishes, for your bike!
yes i am not sure when i will get to wear test, but going off knowledge of previous chains i am confident enough to say it will be mediocre on that front (ie probably about 1/4 vs a sram hardchrome chain), but has been tested by CS for efficiency and it is MUCH faster than srams flat top, so it will make a perfect race chain. They should be here soon....... :)
Friday arrived earlier this week! On the topic though, if plating could have an effect, it's on cassette shifting gates. And cassette plating matters more than chain. But of course there is also a special case of unplated non-stainless chains, where rust accelerates wear.
possibly - albeit the whole thing with shift gates i will say at this time is a little... disputed. some think that shift gates suffer wear and cause poor shifting. some think that shift gates are there to allow the chain move, and so in effect - act as a gate, and so the chain is really not interacting / wearing them at all. Wear would come from the side of the link plate against the side of the tooth, but the shift gates are there to do the opposite, allow the link to move across to the next cog unimpeded, and thus - no friction or wear. Sides of teeth can wear, but thats just from lateral load from chain line angles, but wear will be heavier on normal teeth, not shift gate / shift ramp profile teeth.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I see no reason to dispute about gates design and function: they do both: allow chain to move _and_ force chain to move across. For every gate is not an opening in the fence, but a door with its hinges and a lock😁 Either way I agree it is more of a cosmetic issue than performance: for tooth thinning and gate reshaping to effect performance we talk about wear in order of several tenth of a millimeter. By this time the tooth profile wears out first from normal use.
I leave the chain in the dip for a couple minutes with some agitation then close the heat, when I pull my chain wax is almost instantly solidifying. I don't take temps for removal ... Edit: I personally noticed the KMC black DLC chain I have indeed doesn't hold wax for as long, just by the sound I know it's getting metal to metal, diamond to diamond to be accurate, much faster 😅
Hi Adam, I've been using KMC 10 and 11-speed chains for over a decade and well before i started waxing chains and never noticed a longevity issue compared to the Campagnolo and Shimano chains that i used on occasion (mostly price driven for a "premium" chain). After seeing Josh's video, i wasn't worried about my KMC chains because i only use their silver chains. I've been immersive waxing for about a year and after seeing your video, I'm wondering if i should stop buying KMC chains? BTW, I bought several KMC X11-SL chains on sale when i started this immersive waxing journey to start everything fresh. Thanks for your thoughts.
Adam, apologies if you've already covered this elsewhere in your earlier updates about the Silca Strip Chip process, but I didn't recall seeing it. Have you had an opportunity to do chain wear testing or have an opinion on what difference there is or might be between a waxed chain initially cleaned with solvents vs. one that used a Strip Chip? I've seen your suggestion to leave a chain in the pot an extra 10 minutes beyond what Silca recommends to finish the grease-and-oil-to-wax Strip Chip conversion process for a chain because it's colder than 125C wax when it goes in the pot. If the oleogelation process isn't complete, I assume the chain wear would be less than intended and that's why you've been on top of this point. But I've not seen whether the mix of Silca Hot Wax and Strip Chip oleogelated wax on a chain wears differently than one you've tested with "pure" Silca Hot Wax. Perhaps the oleogelated wax wears off after the first 300km and then you're back to a pure Silca Hot Wax concentration and wear rate. Perhaps some of it remains in key wear spots or comes back in the next immersive wax from what was left in the pot or from successive first waxes of new chains (2 per 500g - your recommendation vs 6 for 500g - Josh's recommendation). Thanks.
Hey! not yet know, i hope to control test for this sometime, but holy batman testing is so booked at the moment. Hoping to get spots soon-ish to test speed chip and endurance chip, strip chip i am less concerned about however. If one doesnt get all FG converted, the main impact is going to be a softening of the hot melt wax from the FG, which can change its treatment longevity, may impact its performance / wear rate etc vs normal hot melt - but any difference should be very minor - following instructions there will either be a high conversion rate or full conversion rate and the wax performing as normal. I have stripped chipped 3 of my own chains recently, and i just in field testing (which is not very precise of course) - all has been normal - it has just felt and ran like a normal waxed chain - aside from the first one where the wax was different - a bit tacky - hence the change to length of time at 125 for chains 2 and 3. However in riding the first chain - it is too difficult to notice a difference in pedalling / riding, we just are not that sensitive. so at this stage, until i can control test and if an issue presents, just the initial field tests - i dont have a reason to be concerned re higher wear rate or lesser treatment longevity at this time, it all seems groovy.
I think it's probably a good idea to take longer on every setting so the chain - not just the wax - gets to the desired temp. The problem I have is that the chain seems too stiff side to side and will tend to get thrown off when front shifting if I don't take some time to flex the chain side to side before putting it on. At least, that was the problem previously, I just upgraded my front derailleur. We'll see.
the extra lateral stiffness of a freshly waxed chain may highlight if a limit setting is right on the verge of overshifting but not quite doing so when chain lubricant is "normal". So if its overshifting on freshly waxed, bring the FD limit back a smidge and that should resolve, as even freshly waxed if all set up perfectly it should not overshift
I run YBN gold chains on shimano 12spd. I noticed 0 shifting difference. I have noticed the chain feels much more "slinky" or slippery between the links than the shimano chain did. The only other difference is im using molten speedwax on the gold chain and i was using silca on the shimano chain. Minimal performance gains, but I was setting up a new bike. The other thing I noticed is the molten speedwax stays liquid to a lower temp than silca. I was pulling silca out of the wax @ 155-160f (70c), and the sweet spot for the molten speedwax feels like (60c). If i pull the chain out of the molten speedwax when its hotter, i notice the wax drips so long it seperates from the lubricant and clear wax begins dripping off. if i get my temp right, the wax stays emulsified on the chain. I then polish up the chain a little as i get it on the bike, removing some of the wax where its not needed
Josh was saying the chains got noisier sooner. That fits with the coated surfaces shedding the wax faster and would likely cause noise and wear on the cassette and chain rings sooner but a quick refresh with drip should handle that. I'm going to bet there's no difference in the run time of the chain otherwise.
yes but my clarification is that it isnt due to the rainbow pvd plating as that is only on the outside, it will be the type of low friction coating they are using inside the dlc and rainbow plated chains, not due to the external plating as it cannot impact what is going on inside
But but but it's Thursday..... never saw any difference in longevity between 75 - 85C temperature. 200-250km rotation ebike. 65C just loads up the outside of the chain with wax, wasting it. These are KMC E12 chains. TiN and blacktech coated chains.
yeah i will have chance tomoz with school sports day! it will be a 4am start to get this arvo and tonights orders packed and out and enquiries answered then off to see the youngling rock!
Hi Adam, Great vid as always. What concerns me about these super hard coating be they DLC or TiN is that when the start to wear off you end up with a lube which has tiny but extremely hard, and likely on a microscopic scale, sharp, pieces of abrasive in the lube i.e. a cutting paste.
It is possible but i dont think it should be a concern as it would be very minute (there would be literally a fraction of a gram of plating across the entire chain) and also even just basic periodic maintenance would resolve any possible issue - overall wear of the chain will have a lot more particles, and even if not as hard, it still hardened steel, so that will dwarf any concerns re plating wear
I just swapped back from my winterbike (13speed xplr red) yesterday to my summerbike (dura ace) because summer came back and man the shifting is day and night. Sram is so inferior.
What chain and lubrication you would suggest for an e-enduro bike? I'm currently using kmc x9 and peatys premium all weather lube. From what I have seen, heard and experienced chain waxing doesn't seem to be a thing (at least in trail to dh, don't know about xc). Don't really know reason to it.
yep gravity focussed riders are about 2 decades behind re chain lube and so very very slow to the party re waxing , or simply running a proper wax drip for the much greater contamination resistance and lower wear rate. If you have a 9spd drivetrain - i am not really sure what is a good e-bike 9spd chain i am sorry, its the first time in 8.5 years ive been asked re an e-bike 9spd! but if i was me, i would either run ebike rated shimano or wippermann vs kmc for better wear life - or if kmc seems solid - just get a chain wear checker and keep track of wear life to 0.5%, and then try wippermann etc next time and see if it lasts a lot longer for same lube / maintenance.
I tried products from mint n dry on my son's bike (my test mule) I'm pretty sure they would be even worse than finish line ceramic but it's just a subjective opinion, I was very curious since here in Canada shops and representatives are pushing this line of products at great costs but tbh they seems extremely bad, doesn't last much more than minutes before needing to reapply. Mint n Dry is the brand.
yes i have had some email requests re testing this companies products, but after a quick look at website - they do just look to be similar to just so many others marketing lubricants that are eco friendly, but there is absolutely nothing on their that substantiate marketing claims. A first step would be email them and ask them for information on their testing and data they have to support the performance claims they are already making, and see what they supply. It will likely either be nothing, or it will be something like "this was developed to meet the needs of professional athletes as well as cyclists riding in all conditions blah blah blah blah" - which is code for we mixed together some stuff that is classed as lubricating to make a lubricant. Us and our friends rode it and it felt like it was a lubricant. So now we market it as an amazing lubricant. maybe they will send some great testing and data that sits behind product claims - but 99 times in 100 - you get the above.
Regarding plating. Have you considered doing tests of KMCs EPT treatment? They have done tests using salt water and accelerated aging. But it would be cool to compare their regular Z/X vs their EPT versions. Considering the risk of wax getting washed out over time by rain I paid the small premium to get the EPT version for all my chains even if the plates might not be the main part or the wear. But it would be interesting to see if they have any effect.
Paraffine is not water soluble, so does it actually get washed off by rain, i wonder? Sure water falling on the chain and then falling off the chain will carry some of it away but then so does the friction of the wax rubbing against all the mechanical bits, which should be a larger effect, shouldn't it. But yeah sure sure if you have any added corrosion resistance on the metal, that seems good, since you're going to have that paraffine loss one way or another, and you do have water contact and salts contact. They say it works, that they tested it and it works, does it work, who knows, worth independently testing perhaps, curious, you're right.
Overall anything anti corrosion is not much of a focus vs so many other things to get to at the moment. The main reason is that if one is doing the basic things they should be doing post wet ride to look after chain, rusting wont be an issue. ie on waxing if no time to re wax post ride, wipe chain and put a quick top up coating of wax drip to protect - takes 30 secs, and chain is protected, and then re wax to reset contamination when you can - so it might be topping up every day during a wet commuting week, and re wax on weekend. if its wet lube, again one will still just want to put some fresh lubricant on to protect and flush out a little bit of the crap the water brought in, or at very least improve lubrication to contamination ratio running inside chain. in short - all one has to do post a wet ride is wipe chain and quickly re coat and its protected. The number of people who are just hoping to ride in wet conditions and then not pay any attention to chain - they are going to have bigger issues over time re horrendous wear rates vs rusting. I dont know if it is the case with KMC chains but i know with some brands for giving you anti corrosion, they dont give you chromium wear protection, so you have chain that wont rust, but will wear very fast- most especially one being used in harsh conditions. So general advice is to get a hard wearing chain, and just put lubricant on it so it doest rust vs rely on anti corrosion treatment.
@@SianaGearz correct wax will not wash off, it will be abraded off faster by the crap water brings in as the dirty water runs through the chain. But put a freshly waxed chain sitting out in a downpour, all you will have is a wet chain but perfectly happy wax.
Interesting you mention Shimano chains. My 1 data point is from a dura-ace 11 speed (purchased from shop) - was that whilst the shifting is great, it's significantly noiser when waxed compared to a YBN waxed chain (Silca wax - all other variables (e.g. strip method ) other than chain, the same). Went back to YBN (no other changes) - all quiet again, and I cannot tell difference in shifting quality. Did I just get a "duffer" or is this actually a "thing"
shimano's siltec coating does seem to limit wax retention vs ybn / sram / campy etc - so a bit like what people experience with kmc, but not as bad. interestingly it has been much less of an issue with 12spd vs their 11spd chains, even tho in theory same siltec treatment. but yes its definitely noticed by many for shimano 11s
generally ybn have above average wear life in 11spd, vs competition in 12spd just middle road (ie same as campy, less than shimano m9100, less than sram hardchrome but way more than sram non hardchrome etc). its a good wear protection treatment overall, but mostly they are a great blend of speed, smooth, and wear life
my advice is not to go with anti corrosion chains :). I havent done enough testing / investigation to be certain at all, but it has been the case with some that by giving you an anti corrosion treatment, they take aware the higher level wear protection. If you just do the basic step of re lube chain after a wet ride (so even if you dont have time to re wax, or to flush clean - just wipe chain and whack a quick coating of lubricant on) - then the chain will be protected from rust, and it will at least have more lubricant vs contamination for next ride. Needing an anti corrosion chain means one is planning to just park bike for a day or days post wet ride without simply re lubing chain, in which case one will have bigger problems going on re friction and wear vs some spot rusting starting. So - instead of an anti corrosion chain, get a long wear life chain that will stand up to the rigors of wet conditions riding, and simply protect it from rust with some lubricant when you get home.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for taking the time to reply, Adam! ok, i guess that drip lube could be the cheap trutension All weather lube without tungsten until next rewaxing or maybe flower powerwax as I am running a two pot system.
I've been running this chain for several years now and experienced much better chain life compared to the 11-speed Dura-Ace I had been using before. Just my experience.
it is really going to depend on if the lubricant stays inside the chain ok or gets shucked out and has poor lifespan. KMC experiences seem extremely variable from one cyclist to the next, much more so than any other brand. Just keep a close check on its wear rate and kms so you can assess how it is going for you, and ensure you dont get caught out with rapid chain wear going past 0.5% and damaging cassette and rings etc.
KMC chains are weird. KMC Z99 with squirt: fantastic except if it gets in contact with water and rust, than it brakes like a cookie. KMC X9: Decathlon drip wax or candle wax, it does not matter, it wears down like there is no tomorrow or no lubrication in the chain.
@@feedbackzaloop I have some similar conclusion as well, but I had to notice that only the KMC chains went bonkers on wearing. Shimano, SRAM chains can deal with my strange ideas :D As far as I am concerned, I won't see those chains in the next 1-2 years, so it will take some time to have more experience with them. BTW, if I am not mistaken, KMC recommends against waxing because they have some surface treatment which don't like wax.
Wondering if admixture of water leads to degradation of the wax or promotion of rusting. Where I live, typical average humidty is well over 50% year-round. With frequent much higher humidity, concerned drip wax lubricant applications used in between immersion waxing are not effectively drying. Anyway, I have zero interest in putting my chain in a water bath given these concerns. My only options for assuring a high level of drying are to bring the bike indoors (winter) or put in back of SUV (summer).
Yes wax emulsion lubricants do need a much longer set time in high humidity conditions and also may not set like they do in more "normal" conditions. This can lessen treatment lifespan and gather more contamination than they otherwise would, and especially if the ride is wet, their treatment longevity will can be heavily affected if not fully set, they will wash out easily.
While I respect your efforts in the bike gear industry, it seems much of what you offer leans toward placebo effects for cashed up dentists. Your career in law enforcement had a much more meaningful impact.
@@LKal564because I’ve studied physics and I don’t believe that the title of this video is even a question. Colour only changes thermal absorption from the sun, and the differences will be so minor that it doesn’t warp the metals. Most chains are normal reflective metallic silver and the ones that aren’t are overpriced fad chains. The metal chains are peak for reflecting heat off. But even so, the difference it makes is a couple of degrees. The concern is if a chain gets so hot it can use more lube but a bike chain will never get that hot from colour alone. Metal expansion will also not occur unless extreme temperatures happen and even still it won’t be enough to have much effect on the bicycle.
About the KMC gold X chains, titanium nitride coating is on and inside the plate, even on the rollers and pins. Buuuut, about 30 min of riding in the coating is absent from most of the insides and rollers. Longevity kmc? 🤡
Its not revealing if its BS, and Hambini is well known for his fabricated hatchet jobs against companies/ people he doesnt like. I will have much to say when i have time to say it (currently working my job plus Andrew who is on leave). I think i will take a day of my own holidays coming up to address properly, and i think you will find the response rather enlightening.
Look, Silca have their special pot to sell, so of course the lower temp and the variability of crock pot temp are points for them to make - and I don’t mind them trying as evidence is not being provided by anybody, including ZFC. What would be interesting to see would be the data from that test or yours. But is it worth proving what seems to be obvious when there’s more important to do - would love to see it, but only as I love all this!
yes since its come up a bit i would like to conduct testing and just see what difference in single application longevity i do get, but it just hasnt yet been enough of a priority to try to get this done - however its on the list, and one day somehow i will get to! I think i will do 75 / 90 / 105 / 120 and see what we get - just not sure when.... however in the interim, based on my 125,000km of personal wax experience at 90 and very groovy treatment lifespan and amazing low wear rates - i highly doubt there is a tangible difference between 75 and 90, as really how much more wax layer can you get in there and staying thicker after some pedalling to break in at thousands of psi. If there is excess being pressed out at 90, and there is, then there isnt a wax layer shortage that 75 will fix.
dont worry many do, they are a bit misleading for my liking on some marketing fronts - ie calling a wear resistant treatment "diamond" level for your DLC chain will deliberately lead most to think that these parts have a diamond like hardness coating on them, when they do not. And they know many people will mistakenly think that, and so they are knowingly misleading as many as they can whilst not strictly breaking any advertising laws. Not ethical behavior in my personal opinion. i think it would be great if they could get people to want to buy their chains without resorting to such tactics.
Hey everybody! just to pin comment here that yes i am aware of the hatchet job by Hambini, and that yes of course a response will be coming to cover all the very expected but of course still disappointing amount of lies and twisted information presented. Many of you will already see it for what it is from this guy, many will also be easily fooled as he is rather expert at his presentation, and so all i can ask is just be fair and wait for the correction, i think you will find that quite enlightening.
It was always going to happen as i was on his shite list from many years ago when i questioned the data behind his bearing test proving steel is actually faster than hybrid ceramic. Testing which remains secret to this day. You may start to ponder how he is calling ZFC murky when all of my testing protocol has been open from day one, whilst his remains secret.
In short here for the moment - when i can get to do the correction his hit piece will show very clearly if you were not aware before that Mr H is extraordinarily dishonest. You will no doubt then question a huge amount of his other content and hatchet jobs on other companies / people.
I will need a little time with andrew on leave and me doing two jobs, i am under the pump. Likely i will use a day or two of my holidays week after next to put things to rights, and i will thank Mr H in advance for providing me this opportunity and enormous amount of material to work with to prove how dishonest and immoral he is.
In the interim have a great weekend of riding!
Hi Adam, excellent discussion.
Last year, I acquired a new mountain bike with XO T-type group set, black chain. I got the perception the wax lifespan on that chain is shorter than what I used to have on the previous bike, with XTR 12 speed chain. Initially, I degreased the chain using the solvent method. Then, when I waxed it for the first time, with fresh new wax on the pot, the wax was as hard as expected when it cooled down. However, in the following rewaxes, it was bit softer, and the treatment lifespan was lasting a little more than 3 hours of off-road riding before the chain became noisy. I reset the chain using UFO cleaner and the treatment lifespan improved, reaching around 5 hours now. However, it is still shorter than the XTR chain (around 8 hours). By the way, I use two chains in rotation and have similar results with both. I do flush them with hot water after wet rides. I also use the same pot for my road chains (Ultegra 11 speed) and did not notice any difference on them. So I assume the wax is still good. I saw in your bike fleet video that you are using the XX SL chain in your MTB. I wonder if you noted any shorter treatment lifespan on it? Thanks
Hey there! Yes generally wax bond to sram chains is very good - ie sram axs eagle. But srams Flat top chains are just a bit noisier / less smooth. I have had numerous feedback over time from long term waxers who when from say sram or shimano 11spd to a new bike with sram axs 12spd road - and were wtf is going on with the flat top chains - very quickly noisy etc. So it is flat top chain thing, once the coating gets fairly thin, it can no longer dampen things in those chains.
I havent spent enough time on my mtb with t-type yet, ie literally only two rides since upgrade with the xx-sl, and then i have been testing the new ybn mk 12 flat top chain.
So i cant say from direct experience yet in my riding re sram's t-type and being noisy early like their axs road flat top chains, but i would not be surprised if its the same trend. Whereas sram axs eagle mtb chains - they stay smooth and quiet on waxing for long stretches - 8 to 12hrs for most riders in "normal" offroad conditions which is a pretty broad loose term...
And yes wax should be all good for a long time - the only tip i would suggest is to move to two pot system like a boss (check that out in the waxed life like a boss video) - its an extra pot and wax to start, but once set you are set up, and it is then SOOO easy re keeping 2nd pot wax mega for a very long time, you really extend the peformance of the wax deep into many many re waxes. For those riding offroad, 2 pot system like a boss really rocks.
Sorry to hear about your back trouble - I can relate after spending 4 months recovering from a back fracture after doing a giant wheelie ending on the asphalt! Hope you can get comfortable soon.
Thanks, Adam. Great stuff as usual. I really appreciated Josh's video but did wonder about those two points you brought up here since you've been pretty clear about removal temperature for a while. I tend to stick with the boring "natural" color chains but it's nice to know that the SRAM ones are just fine in case I want some oil slick in my life. Have a great weekend!
I've been waxing my chains for many years. The longest lasting wax treatment lifespan I have experienced was using a YBN Rainbow chain with Silca Hot Wax X with Nanene. Part of this result was that it was my race chain and I only used it in good weather, but I now have 600km on that chain and it still doesn't feel like it needs a re-wax, although based on the kilometers I plan to re-wax it anyway. Most of my chains have always been Dura-Ace chains with MSpeedWax (with excellent results), but I always felt like re-waxing them around 350km when they noticeably get louder
Exactly my experience too
Lol hot wax x.
Here kids, I recommend the $200 wax!
They only way I'm racing that wax is if a sponsor picks up that tab.
Hi Adam. I just found a research paper showing that for some unspecified type of wax, the surface tension and density both reduce by about 5% when going from 75 to 90 degC. I think this means that for 90 degC the wax will hold itself just as well in the small inner gaps while draining better from the unnecessary places on the outside of the chain. So I will continue to pull my chains after a long ‘soak and stir’ at 90degC.
Only just got a thermometer and looking forward to testing my crock pot wax temp for the very first time. It has two heat options and I use the higher one. Still takes nearly an hour to get liquid with chain sitting on top hating slowly. Never seems that hot (no vapours etc) but not certain. Plus the pull temp to be discovered. Next week will be ready to immerse.
You can get probe temp controllers for crock pots, for very little cost.
Adam, your excellent chain efficiency and wear life data chart shows that performance results depend more on the specific model chain (e.g. Shimano Ultegra vs. Shimano Dura-Ace) vs. the brand (e.g. KMC vs. Shimano). I've never owned a KMC chain, so I'm not standing up for them, but I took your comments about KMC to mean they make inferior chains. Your chart contradicts this impression. For example, it shows that you rate both the KMC SL 11spd and Shimano Dura-Ace (11spd?) as having the same wear life (3 out of 5) and their chain efficiency with UFO wax (5 out of 5 - the best rating possible). At the same time, the Shimano XT/Ultegra 12spd chain has a higher wear life (4 of 5) yet lower efficiency (3.5), and the Shimano XTR/DA12sp has an even better wear life (4.5) with the same efficiency (3.5) than the Shimano DA 11spd and KMC. The KMC X12 12spd has a poorer wear life than their 11sp (2 of 5) but maintains its 5 of 5 efficiency rating. Here's the link for those who want to compare these and other model chains from SRAM, Campy, and YBN. zerofrictioncycling.com.au/chaintesting/
Hi - yes apologies if sometimes my communication is not a clear covering all aspects. Kmc chains have always tested with CS efficiency testing as being very fast chains. Wear life for some models tested is in the ballpark vs some others - and some models like the dlc, were very poor. Alas i cant test every scenario, and the wear testing was with a control wet lube, and thus not representative of the common feedback from kmc users re IM waxing not going as hoped with chains sounding and feeling dry quickly.
What XX, or XXX durability treatment or level of low friction coating on what parts of chain across their chain models is seeming to make KMC experience re lubricant and wear life a fairly variable thing - and difficult for me to cover well in any document or video (and would also need more testing).
I dont think carte blanche that KMC make poor chains per se, they are strong, they are fast, and on X lubricants likely have a decent wear life. But some models have for sure tested problematic re holding lubricant, as well as wear lifespan, and i find their marketing around DLC highly misleading.
Hope that helps clarify a bit more
Enjoy your insights. I've never done dip waxing before, but, have been using KMC Gold chains for the past several years, and combined with White Lightning Clean Ride Wax Lube has more than doubled my chain life from approximately 2500 miles to more than 4000 miles when using the Shimano Dura-Ace chains I was using prior. I reapply the lubricant every 100 miles or so, and maintain a very clean chain. I have been very interested in trying out the Silca Waxing system for when my current chain demonstrates end-of-life measures. Today's video is the first I've seen any negative feedback on KMC chains. Antedotedly, my experience seems counter to your report of both performance and chain life. 🤔
I will consider your info moving forward, as I've also made note of where the White Lightning Wax lube fared in your lube testing. Appreciate your work. Thanks.
Anecdotally there is always different experiences thats for sure - ie you can find apparently brilliant results for some of the known worst products on the market (like white lightning!!! :)) and negative reviews for the best products known. its a big wide world of use cases and user experiences always for everything. But.... on balance when focussed just on one specific area - the feedback over time from hundreds to thousands of cyclists, as well as like for like wear rates in a control test - we build a solid picture overall.
I would say if you have been happy with White lightning, you will do cartwheels if on a proper top lubricant! And also wear lifespan reports can vary a lot - ie i get some that say 4000miles but if the chain is at 1.5% wear - that doesnt really count etc.
but also - if one is happy with their chains and lubricants and doesnt want to change or try something else, then for sure stay happy - but i will bet if you moved to something like synergetic or rex black diamond - holy batman your wear life vs WL will be..... longer.....
Thanks for clearing both of those up. The temp part has been floating around the internet for quite a while, but the coating was a new concern for me... I'll go pull my rainbow eagle chain out of the scrap pile.
ha yes sram axs eagle chains - all colours - get on great with waxing, typically very good amount of hours per treatment of smooth silky riding!! I only recently replaced my rainbow eagle chain on my workhorse mtb - it was lovely from day one through to end of years of mega training, and ybn rainbows same
Yeah, very glad you cleared that up right away. I've had no issues with my gold XX1 chain but after that last Silca video I was suddenly looking sideways at the rainbow chain that's been waiting to take it's place... She almost went on ebay.
Ham Boney and Stinky Fruit Rider: the Beavis and Butthead/Ren & Stimpy/Itchy & Scratchy of the online bicycle commentariat (except without the lols).
That Bastion is absolutely gorgeous. I have KMC X10SL gold and silver chains and I cant notice a difference.
thanks shadow and yes i am so very lucky, i am really a subscriber to having a bike for hopefully decades that it just a lovely, lovely machine to ride and enjoy by with friends, family, solo - it is named "Eternal" as i hope this will be a bike i can keep riding for decades to come!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I've seen several in person at Above Category and at Enve headquarters. They're always beautiful.
I think, for one of the hour record attempts, Muc Off had a chain made for it that was thousands of dollars and impregnated with something if I recall. Almost like the non-stick on a frying pan. Not sure if it was nonsense or actually did something, but for that much money, it better do something.
sort of - they called it the 6000 dollar (well GPB) chain - but thats just a marketing thing ie take the amount of labour time invested in developing and testing the lubricant and divide that by X chains they prepped. Since they then went on to sell that product and thus recoup their r&d costs - really its just a normal DA 11spd chain with their at the time latest lubricant, it just made for good marketing headlines. Ie when the first model of a new car comes out - its not a 1 billion dollar car if they took all the costs of design and start up mfg and production to produce the first prototypes before then that new model starts rolling off an assembly line - its just hey this is the new car thats had X development to be X awesome new car, and the rrp is X.
Heres something for you tho - now mind you this is rumour, so i cant say its fact, but..... i heard from MULTIPLE industry heads that the record was done on a wax chain. The nano lube was "developed" for the hour record, but it doesnt say it was used for the hour record. when i was having some chats with M-O one of the questions i asked was can they confirm in writing that it was used for the record, and no answer to that question. So maybe Nano was used, maybe it wasnt - personally if i had to place a big money bet , i would bet he used a wax chain, and all that stuff around nano was PR.
Nano tested TERRIBLY in zfc testing.... the worst of the M-O products tested.
Wow Hambini has laid into you big style on his website.
on his website? i have been waiting for a roasting video! dont worry, his is coming. what a guy.
@@theillegalimmigrant9314 he's got a website?
@@zerofrictioncycling992 It looks like your real issue isn’t with Hambini but with yourself. You’ve made yourself out to be the go-to expert on chain lubricants. Then Hambini steps in, dismantles your tests using straightforward math and commonly accepted methods, and raises concerns about your integrity based on some of your emails. After reading the beginning of that article, I would question your integrity and motives.
TLDR Hambini says dirt causes chain wear, which we all know, but doesn’t admit that oil/grease holds on to dirt whereas wax doesn’t. He also says he can’t be faffed with taking off his chain to rewax it but recommends you take off your chain frequently to clean it ultrasonically. 😂 The whole article is an ad hominem attack dressed up in “science graduate speak” to make it sound convincing. Sad fucker.
Hes really more like spamtini. Based on his size and mouth.
Though hambini does have a ring to it. Almost like I could rub an old oil lamp and a hambini would pop out to grant 3 wishes, for your bike!
EAGERLY waiting for the results of YBN’s latest 12s FLAT-TOP chains for SRAM!! Including the RAINBOW one hahaha
yes i am not sure when i will get to wear test, but going off knowledge of previous chains i am confident enough to say it will be mediocre on that front (ie probably about 1/4 vs a sram hardchrome chain), but has been tested by CS for efficiency and it is MUCH faster than srams flat top, so it will make a perfect race chain. They should be here soon....... :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 tested by Ceramic Speed?
Friday arrived earlier this week!
On the topic though, if plating could have an effect, it's on cassette shifting gates. And cassette plating matters more than chain.
But of course there is also a special case of unplated non-stainless chains, where rust accelerates wear.
possibly - albeit the whole thing with shift gates i will say at this time is a little... disputed. some think that shift gates suffer wear and cause poor shifting. some think that shift gates are there to allow the chain move, and so in effect - act as a gate, and so the chain is really not interacting / wearing them at all. Wear would come from the side of the link plate against the side of the tooth, but the shift gates are there to do the opposite, allow the link to move across to the next cog unimpeded, and thus - no friction or wear.
Sides of teeth can wear, but thats just from lateral load from chain line angles, but wear will be heavier on normal teeth, not shift gate / shift ramp profile teeth.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I see no reason to dispute about gates design and function: they do both: allow chain to move _and_ force chain to move across. For every gate is not an opening in the fence, but a door with its hinges and a lock😁
Either way I agree it is more of a cosmetic issue than performance: for tooth thinning and gate reshaping to effect performance we talk about wear in order of several tenth of a millimeter. By this time the tooth profile wears out first from normal use.
I leave the chain in the dip for a couple minutes with some agitation then close the heat, when I pull my chain wax is almost instantly solidifying. I don't take temps for removal ...
Edit: I personally noticed the KMC black DLC chain I have indeed doesn't hold wax for as long, just by the sound I know it's getting metal to metal, diamond to diamond to be accurate, much faster 😅
Hi Adam, I've been using KMC 10 and 11-speed chains for over a decade and well before i started waxing chains and never noticed a longevity issue compared to the Campagnolo and Shimano chains that i used on occasion (mostly price driven for a "premium" chain). After seeing Josh's video, i wasn't worried about my KMC chains because i only use their silver chains. I've been immersive waxing for about a year and after seeing your video, I'm wondering if i should stop buying KMC chains? BTW, I bought several KMC X11-SL chains on sale when i started this immersive waxing journey to start everything fresh. Thanks for your thoughts.
Adam, apologies if you've already covered this elsewhere in your earlier updates about the Silca Strip Chip process, but I didn't recall seeing it. Have you had an opportunity to do chain wear testing or have an opinion on what difference there is or might be between a waxed chain initially cleaned with solvents vs. one that used a Strip Chip? I've seen your suggestion to leave a chain in the pot an extra 10 minutes beyond what Silca recommends to finish the grease-and-oil-to-wax Strip Chip conversion process for a chain because it's colder than 125C wax when it goes in the pot. If the oleogelation process isn't complete, I assume the chain wear would be less than intended and that's why you've been on top of this point. But I've not seen whether the mix of Silca Hot Wax and Strip Chip oleogelated wax on a chain wears differently than one you've tested with "pure" Silca Hot Wax. Perhaps the oleogelated wax wears off after the first 300km and then you're back to a pure Silca Hot Wax concentration and wear rate. Perhaps some of it remains in key wear spots or comes back in the next immersive wax from what was left in the pot or from successive first waxes of new chains (2 per 500g - your recommendation vs 6 for 500g - Josh's recommendation). Thanks.
Hey! not yet know, i hope to control test for this sometime, but holy batman testing is so booked at the moment. Hoping to get spots soon-ish to test speed chip and endurance chip, strip chip i am less concerned about however. If one doesnt get all FG converted, the main impact is going to be a softening of the hot melt wax from the FG, which can change its treatment longevity, may impact its performance / wear rate etc vs normal hot melt - but any difference should be very minor - following instructions there will either be a high conversion rate or full conversion rate and the wax performing as normal.
I have stripped chipped 3 of my own chains recently, and i just in field testing (which is not very precise of course) - all has been normal - it has just felt and ran like a normal waxed chain - aside from the first one where the wax was different - a bit tacky - hence the change to length of time at 125 for chains 2 and 3. However in riding the first chain - it is too difficult to notice a difference in pedalling / riding, we just are not that sensitive.
so at this stage, until i can control test and if an issue presents, just the initial field tests - i dont have a reason to be concerned re higher wear rate or lesser treatment longevity at this time, it all seems groovy.
I think it's probably a good idea to take longer on every setting so the chain - not just the wax - gets to the desired temp. The problem I have is that the chain seems too stiff side to side and will tend to get thrown off when front shifting if I don't take some time to flex the chain side to side before putting it on. At least, that was the problem previously, I just upgraded my front derailleur. We'll see.
the extra lateral stiffness of a freshly waxed chain may highlight if a limit setting is right on the verge of overshifting but not quite doing so when chain lubricant is "normal". So if its overshifting on freshly waxed, bring the FD limit back a smidge and that should resolve, as even freshly waxed if all set up perfectly it should not overshift
I was curious how much wax stayed on the chain, so I weighed the chain before and after. I got 6 grams more with the wax.
I run YBN gold chains on shimano 12spd. I noticed 0 shifting difference. I have noticed the chain feels much more "slinky" or slippery between the links than the shimano chain did. The only other difference is im using molten speedwax on the gold chain and i was using silca on the shimano chain. Minimal performance gains, but I was setting up a new bike.
The other thing I noticed is the molten speedwax stays liquid to a lower temp than silca. I was pulling silca out of the wax @ 155-160f (70c), and the sweet spot for the molten speedwax feels like (60c). If i pull the chain out of the molten speedwax when its hotter, i notice the wax drips so long it seperates from the lubricant and clear wax begins dripping off. if i get my temp right, the wax stays emulsified on the chain. I then polish up the chain a little as i get it on the bike, removing some of the wax where its not needed
Josh was saying the chains got noisier sooner. That fits with the coated surfaces shedding the wax faster and would likely cause noise and wear on the cassette and chain rings sooner but a quick refresh with drip should handle that. I'm going to bet there's no difference in the run time of the chain otherwise.
yes but my clarification is that it isnt due to the rainbow pvd plating as that is only on the outside, it will be the type of low friction coating they are using inside the dlc and rainbow plated chains, not due to the external plating as it cannot impact what is going on inside
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I agree with you that it likely doesn't have any effect on over all longevity. Just gets noisy.
But but but it's Thursday..... never saw any difference in longevity between 75 - 85C temperature. 200-250km rotation ebike. 65C just loads up the outside of the chain with wax, wasting it. These are KMC E12 chains. TiN and blacktech coated chains.
yeah i will have chance tomoz with school sports day! it will be a 4am start to get this arvo and tonights orders packed and out and enquiries answered then off to see the youngling rock!
Hi Adam, Great vid as always. What concerns me about these super hard coating be they DLC or TiN is that when the start to wear off you end up with a lube which has tiny but extremely hard, and likely on a microscopic scale, sharp, pieces of abrasive in the lube i.e. a cutting paste.
It is possible but i dont think it should be a concern as it would be very minute (there would be literally a fraction of a gram of plating across the entire chain) and also even just basic periodic maintenance would resolve any possible issue - overall wear of the chain will have a lot more particles, and even if not as hard, it still hardened steel, so that will dwarf any concerns re plating wear
I just swapped back from my winterbike (13speed xplr red) yesterday to my summerbike (dura ace) because summer came back and man the shifting is day and night. Sram is so inferior.
What chain and lubrication you would suggest for an e-enduro bike? I'm currently using kmc x9 and peatys premium all weather lube. From what I have seen, heard and experienced chain waxing doesn't seem to be a thing (at least in trail to dh, don't know about xc). Don't really know reason to it.
yep gravity focussed riders are about 2 decades behind re chain lube and so very very slow to the party re waxing , or simply running a proper wax drip for the much greater contamination resistance and lower wear rate.
If you have a 9spd drivetrain - i am not really sure what is a good e-bike 9spd chain i am sorry, its the first time in 8.5 years ive been asked re an e-bike 9spd! but if i was me, i would either run ebike rated shimano or wippermann vs kmc for better wear life - or if kmc seems solid - just get a chain wear checker and keep track of wear life to 0.5%, and then try wippermann etc next time and see if it lasts a lot longer for same lube / maintenance.
I tried products from mint n dry on my son's bike (my test mule) I'm pretty sure they would be even worse than finish line ceramic but it's just a subjective opinion, I was very curious since here in Canada shops and representatives are pushing this line of products at great costs but tbh they seems extremely bad, doesn't last much more than minutes before needing to reapply.
Mint n Dry is the brand.
yes i have had some email requests re testing this companies products, but after a quick look at website - they do just look to be similar to just so many others marketing lubricants that are eco friendly, but there is absolutely nothing on their that substantiate marketing claims. A first step would be email them and ask them for information on their testing and data they have to support the performance claims they are already making, and see what they supply. It will likely either be nothing, or it will be something like "this was developed to meet the needs of professional athletes as well as cyclists riding in all conditions blah blah blah blah" - which is code for we mixed together some stuff that is classed as lubricating to make a lubricant. Us and our friends rode it and it felt like it was a lubricant. So now we market it as an amazing lubricant.
maybe they will send some great testing and data that sits behind product claims - but 99 times in 100 - you get the above.
Regarding plating. Have you considered doing tests of KMCs EPT treatment?
They have done tests using salt water and accelerated aging. But it would be cool to compare their regular Z/X vs their EPT versions.
Considering the risk of wax getting washed out over time by rain I paid the small premium to get the EPT version for all my chains even if the plates might not be the main part or the wear. But it would be interesting to see if they have any effect.
Paraffine is not water soluble, so does it actually get washed off by rain, i wonder? Sure water falling on the chain and then falling off the chain will carry some of it away but then so does the friction of the wax rubbing against all the mechanical bits, which should be a larger effect, shouldn't it.
But yeah sure sure if you have any added corrosion resistance on the metal, that seems good, since you're going to have that paraffine loss one way or another, and you do have water contact and salts contact. They say it works, that they tested it and it works, does it work, who knows, worth independently testing perhaps, curious, you're right.
Overall anything anti corrosion is not much of a focus vs so many other things to get to at the moment. The main reason is that if one is doing the basic things they should be doing post wet ride to look after chain, rusting wont be an issue. ie on waxing if no time to re wax post ride, wipe chain and put a quick top up coating of wax drip to protect - takes 30 secs, and chain is protected, and then re wax to reset contamination when you can - so it might be topping up every day during a wet commuting week, and re wax on weekend. if its wet lube, again one will still just want to put some fresh lubricant on to protect and flush out a little bit of the crap the water brought in, or at very least improve lubrication to contamination ratio running inside chain.
in short - all one has to do post a wet ride is wipe chain and quickly re coat and its protected. The number of people who are just hoping to ride in wet conditions and then not pay any attention to chain - they are going to have bigger issues over time re horrendous wear rates vs rusting.
I dont know if it is the case with KMC chains but i know with some brands for giving you anti corrosion, they dont give you chromium wear protection, so you have chain that wont rust, but will wear very fast- most especially one being used in harsh conditions. So general advice is to get a hard wearing chain, and just put lubricant on it so it doest rust vs rely on anti corrosion treatment.
@@SianaGearz correct wax will not wash off, it will be abraded off faster by the crap water brings in as the dirty water runs through the chain. But put a freshly waxed chain sitting out in a downpour, all you will have is a wet chain but perfectly happy wax.
Interesting you mention Shimano chains. My 1 data point is from a dura-ace 11 speed (purchased from shop) - was that whilst the shifting is great, it's significantly noiser when waxed compared to a YBN waxed chain (Silca wax - all other variables (e.g. strip method ) other than chain, the same). Went back to YBN (no other changes) - all quiet again, and I cannot tell difference in shifting quality. Did I just get a "duffer" or is this actually a "thing"
I've had a similar experience with my Shimano 11 speed chain
shimano's siltec coating does seem to limit wax retention vs ybn / sram / campy etc - so a bit like what people experience with kmc, but not as bad. interestingly it has been much less of an issue with 12spd vs their 11spd chains, even tho in theory same siltec treatment. but yes its definitely noticed by many for shimano 11s
Thanks for taking the time to reply, and good info there.
I saw YBN chain description that have chrome carbide pin coating. Have this coating measurable impact on wear resistance?
generally ybn have above average wear life in 11spd, vs competition in 12spd just middle road (ie same as campy, less than shimano m9100, less than sram hardchrome but way more than sram non hardchrome etc). its a good wear protection treatment overall, but mostly they are a great blend of speed, smooth, and wear life
Hi Adam, do you have an advice for a good 12 speed anti-corrosion chain?
my advice is not to go with anti corrosion chains :). I havent done enough testing / investigation to be certain at all, but it has been the case with some that by giving you an anti corrosion treatment, they take aware the higher level wear protection.
If you just do the basic step of re lube chain after a wet ride (so even if you dont have time to re wax, or to flush clean - just wipe chain and whack a quick coating of lubricant on) - then the chain will be protected from rust, and it will at least have more lubricant vs contamination for next ride.
Needing an anti corrosion chain means one is planning to just park bike for a day or days post wet ride without simply re lubing chain, in which case one will have bigger problems going on re friction and wear vs some spot rusting starting.
So - instead of an anti corrosion chain, get a long wear life chain that will stand up to the rigors of wet conditions riding, and simply protect it from rust with some lubricant when you get home.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you for taking the time to reply, Adam! ok, i guess that drip lube could be the cheap trutension All weather lube without tungsten until next rewaxing or maybe flower powerwax as I am running a two pot system.
Is the KMC X11 EL likely to have wear longevity issues?
I've been running this chain for several years now and experienced much better chain life compared to the 11-speed Dura-Ace I had been using before. Just my experience.
it is really going to depend on if the lubricant stays inside the chain ok or gets shucked out and has poor lifespan. KMC experiences seem extremely variable from one cyclist to the next, much more so than any other brand. Just keep a close check on its wear rate and kms so you can assess how it is going for you, and ensure you dont get caught out with rapid chain wear going past 0.5% and damaging cassette and rings etc.
KMC chains are weird.
KMC Z99 with squirt: fantastic except if it gets in contact with water and rust, than it brakes like a cookie.
KMC X9: Decathlon drip wax or candle wax, it does not matter, it wears down like there is no tomorrow or no lubrication in the chain.
@@RelakS__ tbf, Decathlon wax and candle wax are not the best representations of chain waxes.
@@feedbackzaloop I have some similar conclusion as well, but I had to notice that only the KMC chains went bonkers on wearing. Shimano, SRAM chains can deal with my strange ideas :D As far as I am concerned, I won't see those chains in the next 1-2 years, so it will take some time to have more experience with them.
BTW, if I am not mistaken, KMC recommends against waxing because they have some surface treatment which don't like wax.
Wondering if admixture of water leads to degradation of the wax or promotion of rusting. Where I live, typical average humidty is well over 50% year-round. With frequent much higher humidity, concerned drip wax lubricant applications used in between immersion waxing are not effectively drying. Anyway, I have zero interest in putting my chain in a water bath given these concerns. My only options for assuring a high level of drying are to bring the bike indoors (winter) or put in back of SUV (summer).
Yes wax emulsion lubricants do need a much longer set time in high humidity conditions and also may not set like they do in more "normal" conditions. This can lessen treatment lifespan and gather more contamination than they otherwise would, and especially if the ride is wet, their treatment longevity will can be heavily affected if not fully set, they will wash out easily.
While I respect your efforts in the bike gear industry, it seems much of what you offer leans toward placebo effects for cashed up dentists. Your career in law enforcement had a much more meaningful impact.
Why do you think this comment is relevant?
@@LKal564because I’ve studied physics and I don’t believe that the title of this video is even a question. Colour only changes thermal absorption from the sun, and the differences will be so minor that it doesn’t warp the metals. Most chains are normal reflective metallic silver and the ones that aren’t are overpriced fad chains. The metal chains are peak for reflecting heat off.
But even so, the difference it makes is a couple of degrees. The concern is if a chain gets so hot it can use more lube but a bike chain will never get that hot from colour alone. Metal expansion will also not occur unless extreme temperatures happen and even still it won’t be enough to have much effect on the bicycle.
@@Austin_Boath I think you should watch the video before you are commenting. Adam is talking about two different subjects....
About the KMC gold X chains, titanium nitride coating is on and inside the plate, even on the rollers and pins. Buuuut, about 30 min of riding in the coating is absent from most of the insides and rollers. Longevity kmc? 🤡
i dont believe that to be the case - if you take a link apart, you will not find gold Ti-N plating on any of those parts
Just read the latest report from Hambini..very revealing, what do you have to say ?
Its not revealing if its BS, and Hambini is well known for his fabricated hatchet jobs against companies/ people he doesnt like. I will have much to say when i have time to say it (currently working my job plus Andrew who is on leave). I think i will take a day of my own holidays coming up to address properly, and i think you will find the response rather enlightening.
Look, Silca have their special pot to sell, so of course the lower temp and the variability of crock pot temp are points for them to make - and I don’t mind them trying as evidence is not being provided by anybody, including ZFC. What would be interesting to see would be the data from that test or yours. But is it worth proving what seems to be obvious when there’s more important to do - would love to see it, but only as I love all this!
This is not a sales tactic it is called facts. And if your crockpot cant hold a certain temperature its not their fault.
yes since its come up a bit i would like to conduct testing and just see what difference in single application longevity i do get, but it just hasnt yet been enough of a priority to try to get this done - however its on the list, and one day somehow i will get to! I think i will do 75 / 90 / 105 / 120 and see what we get - just not sure when....
however in the interim, based on my 125,000km of personal wax experience at 90 and very groovy treatment lifespan and amazing low wear rates - i highly doubt there is a tangible difference between 75 and 90, as really how much more wax layer can you get in there and staying thicker after some pedalling to break in at thousands of psi. If there is excess being pressed out at 90, and there is, then there isnt a wax layer shortage that 75 will fix.
I fell for that KMC nonsense
dont worry many do, they are a bit misleading for my liking on some marketing fronts - ie calling a wear resistant treatment "diamond" level for your DLC chain will deliberately lead most to think that these parts have a diamond like hardness coating on them, when they do not. And they know many people will mistakenly think that, and so they are knowingly misleading as many as they can whilst not strictly breaking any advertising laws. Not ethical behavior in my personal opinion. i think it would be great if they could get people to want to buy their chains without resorting to such tactics.