Why Australian Cities Don’t Have Town Squares
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- Опубліковано 6 чер 2024
- There’s something missing in Aussie cities: a central square. | Go to squarespace.com/julianoshea to get a free trial and 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
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Unknown Melbourne is a series exploring the weird and wonderful parts of the city.
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Read More and Reference:
Australian’s Don’t Loiter in Public Spaces - theconversation.com/australia...
Great Cities Have Great Streets - www.abc.net.au/news/2010-01-2...
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As squares go, Federation Square feels really uninviting. It's on a slope and the buildings that surround it are effectively industrial office blocks in disguise, making it feel very claustrophobic. The western buildings also block important landmarks like the Arts Centre spire and St Pauls Cathedral. The eastern end of the square is effectively blocked off. It also fails as a decent meeting place since there are no instantly-recognisable features within the square. I feel like a lot of these design decisions were/are deliberate, to prevent it from becoming a place where people can protest.
Definitely could be more inviting.
Not to mention a distinct lack of trees, and shade from the sun and wind. In effect, if you squint, Fed Square provides similar urban design outcomes to a large parking lot in a suburban light industrial office park. Not great....
@@edanalytics9336 I agree with you. A very unpleasant place to be. So hard-edged and disquieting.
I was incredibly disappointed with the design of Federation Square when it was finalised. Horrible, uninviting, uncomfortable place. I would have been happy with a big block of grass with some trees, seats and a couple of relaxed eating venues. I worked in the city at the time and would have loved somewhere to just sit and relax at lunch time. Also, it doesn't really connect well to the river. The least said about the former 'City Square' the better.
@@JulianOShea , I was there once with someone in a wheelchair, it was very difficult to get around with very limited wheelchair access. It didn't make sense to me that the design met regulations and was approved as it is now.
it's also worth mentioning that even though federation square is technically council owned land, it's managed as a private enterprise, has it's own security and is effectively just company controlled meaning they can remove anyone from the square as they see fit. this means homeless people, protests, street performers (who have already very limited options to perform inside the city) - Federation square's 'public' space is rented out to companies and brands for activations as their first priority over actually serving as a space for the public. it's a business. I find that really sad.
I think the same applies to Southern Cross Station.
Large chunks of London operate in this way. Newly built apartment blocks with streets that look like normal streets but it's technically private land.
@@IndigoIndustrial yes Covent Garden is a great example of this. Capco bought the entire market and premises around and now makes the rules. You can really tell the difference as there are practically no more small or independent businesses there. Also again street performers which traditionally are interwoven into the fabric of CG are now again expected to stop working for product activations and for profit activities from Capco.
good to see how many people are waking up to things like this
That sucks. Big business, eh
I'm a game designer, trying to learn more about city design so that my in-game towns make sense. But I'm also just trying to learn the basics of how cities and towns work and were established, so that I'm not starting from scratch every time. This video in particular helps me make a clear decision at the start of any city design for a game: did they quash democracy early on, or was there room for the public reserved from the start? I can immediately see how building a town with a public space is going to send the design and narrative choices in one direction, and restricting public places would make for a much more antagonistic space to build off of.
They wanted to quash democracy. Remember, most of the people who first came here with the British were convicts. A large proportion of the convicts were Irish who caused hassles for the British trying to take over Ireland and subdue her people. The last thing the British wanted was a place for convicts and their descendants to meet and plan uprisings.
That's so cool how you're developing your ideas! Good luck with it all 👏
You might be interested in reading Uneven Development by Neil Smith
Well, if you are playing in a historic setting, you need to keep in mind the city square is also needed for markets, it only became optional later or in planned colonial cities.
Best of luck being a game designer..
The future looks good for your job as
More people will be kept at home unable to economically jump into thei private transport to undwind and enjoy a nice day out in the open road.
Agenda 2030 will see most people unwittingly confined to their homes trying to find release and entertainment via video games..
The United Nations has already forecast this.
Brisbane now has also added in a couple of squares. King George Square is a big meeting place in the city and a focal point of events and protests (even if its not that well designed for our climate) we also have Anzac Square, Post Office Square, Reddacliffe Place is kind of a square (the buildings on it are called Brisbane Square) which also hosts a lot of markets and protests as well. The retrofit of squares is something the city has actually done quite well at.
queens gardens is also often used for protests and democratic activity. nice and close to the queen victoria bridge so it's a good place to meet up for marches like the many SS4C events.
@@j_0anna That is very true! I was thinking about Queens Gardens as well but wasn’t sure whether to include it in the list as technically its a park. But post office square is basically a park too.
It is nice that Brisbane has a lot of spaces like these though for people to gather. It is a positive about the city.
Hungry jacks ...
Someone doesn't live in Brisbane.
The meeting spot is hungry's
@@Robert-cu9bm Haha. Thats one of them yes 😂😂 it’s usually a bit crowded around the Hungry Jacks now, making it less of a great meeting place.
This wasn't the last time that a fear of protests and 'democracy' impacted architecture in Australia either, UTS in Sydney was designed specifically to be hostile to student movements, after the May 68 protests in Paris.
I did not know that about UTS
Same sorta reasoning behind why Canberra, our Capital is placed where it is, that and Sydney and Melbourne kept arguing about which should be the Capital. So in the middle, of nowhere, where no one will come to protest.
UTS hasn't changed - now best mates with China's leadership.
@@brendotheoffendo
Canberra's design was inspired by a medium sized town in Hertfordshire.
what about UTS? That it's in towers?
I like the extra filming effort you put in for that two seconds of "bubble tea shops"
Thank you for appreciating that. It was indeed a whole thing…
As an Adelaide native, this video was fascinating and, in my mind at least, really plays into the different origins of South Australia from the other Australian colonies. We were founded without convicts with the express promise of democracy once the population had grown a bit. The Adelaide City Council was holding elections only 4 years after the colony was founded!
It also explains why South Australia does well with, well, pretty much everything... most notably I point to the green energy transition. (NSW here)
Victoria wasn't founded by convicts. The first settlement was but it was shut down and the second attempt at a colony was settled by free people.
@@schr4nz lol no it doesn't
@@willpeden6055 i paraphrase, "yeah it was... butttttt"
@@Lupi33z errr, yes it does!!!
The main thing I recall about Fed Sq is all the insane trip hazards. Words carved into the paving, steps leaping out randomly. Must have given ankle surgeons a lot of business!!
It does. I know two friends with broken ankles from Fed Square
It was worse when it was first open. I have first hand knowledge of arguments with the designers after we did a risk mgt inspection. My favorite was architect wet dream of a balustrade that was designed so a kid could walk along an angled flat broad beam and end up being 2 stories above the ground. Or the steps with no handrails (because they look bad).
@@interestedobserver587 What? A risk management inspection was done and yet the paving and steps still happened?
@@turbo.panther Yep. Report and recommendations can be made but cant order changes. Those surfaces were worse when it first opened.
@@interestedobserver587 Seems like designer vanity has trumped reason.
when I moved from Sydney to Adelaide, the first thing I noticed was Tarndanyangga / Victoria Square...I knew it was a planned city from the layout of the parks and the ring road, but I never knew what I was missing out on until I had a city that had that town square and embraced it culturally - just about every other weekend I drive past it, the square is full of City initiatives and activities.
Sydney has other things aside from a town square to meet at. The Harbour and Circular Quay, Hyde Park and the botanical gardens for example.
@@carisi2k11 they do yeah, but those feel like they're known places so people go "lets meet here" and Sydney City Council tends to send the police to sus things out right away. Adelaide's stuff is explicitly designed as a meeting place, so it's a lot more open and the city really embraces people using it...I've seen everything from tent embassies to food truck festivals, to protests about human rights and just families having picnics in Tarndanyangga.
after 2013, its technically spelled Tarntanyangga
When they opened up the space in front of Town Hall in Sydney for pedestrians due to the tram, the number of protests definitely increase. They range from left to right, with famous occurrence included the tussle with the police over lockdown. While I oppose restricting public space for control, I think their reasoning had been proven correct.
I like the mention of the default meeting place in Melbourne city organically forming at the station, under the clocks.
Ask anyone from Brisbane the default meeting place in the city, they’ll give you one answer - out front of the Hungry Jacks. (Australia’s Burger King equivalent)
In Sydney it’s at the Town Hall steps
The amusing thing about "under the clocks", is that a pub tried to co-opt it. By being on another corner of Flinders Street Station and calling itself "Clocks" or "Clocks At Flinders".
Perth it's the green cactus thingy
So many times I have gone to meet friends in Brisbane City and our meeting place is outside Hungry Jacks 🤣🤣🤣
During the 50's and 60's, just saying "meet you under the clocks" was enough, everyone knew where.
As an open space planner I can testify that we now recognise community space as the most valuable space in any town or city, with our parks being the most visited spaces in our cities. Now community gathering is not a threat to governance but rather a celebration of community.
There's still plenty of protests, there were huge ones last year, 2021. Melbourne saw some of the bigger ones. Not really a threat to democracy, but large numbers of people with an agenda that was unhappy with government, for sure.
How did you become an open space planner?
@@stackels97 Wow, that is a question out of left field on youtube. I got a job as a recreation planner with Sport & Recreation Queensland, then got a number of jobs with local government in NSW, Vic and Tas. Along the way I did some courses and added open space planning to my rec planning.
As a planner I agree completely. The public realm; community spaces, city parks, walkable streets are the most important things. The right to the city begins with the availability of space to peacefully exist within it.
Lets never lose sight of our mission.
Whoa I can't imagine what it would be like if the library still have their fences. The openness of the lawn was an impotant key to the vibe of that area
At least in Adelaide the City squares have very much been akin to their European counterparts. They are something we use for day to day life, you commute through them, you go to them because you may need somewhere to eat, we host concerts at them and even protests. I can guarantee every single resident in Adelaide has used the squares for a generic purpose.
Couldn't agree more! They have many uses. And not just the fantastic squares but also our parklands and the new festival plaza is almost another square 👏👏. Pretty lucky in Adelaide.
For years back in the 80's we had Skyshow ( Fireworks sync'd to SAFM soundtrack ) down at Thebarton along the Port Road Parklands. It started at Elder park until it got too big. Victoria Sq is useful for starting a Protest and march down King William St to Parliament House
Good on them. If they can use the squares without being harassed by bloody Abbo's then they consider themselves lucky.
And those squares ain't European, there's nothing European about Adelaide, it's more English style like Sydney. That's why both of them are dirty depressing poorly planned ghettos.
@@KH_878 Parklands?
Who'd want to hangout in them in summer?
You get 6 days of 40°C + and no rainfall.
They are dry, brown and very few trees.
Terrible place to be in summer Adelaide.
That’s why the old slogan for our license plates were “the festival state”
Lincoln square Melbourne,was originally designed to honor those lost in a Bali bombing. It became an international skateboard hub and community hang out. People would eat their lunch, play with their kids, it was beautiful. No police call outs in 8 years! They ripped up the concrete and the place is dead. Some parents of those lost came with us to council meetings to improve the whole surrounding areas, bob f'ing Doyle just said no.
Agreed, i was shocked disrespect meted out to Bali victims memorials!😓
I hope you don't mean the park users were disrespectful.. because honestly we weren't. We loved that place and also felt the loss of the young Melbournians. Also on swanston street, a retaining wall fell and killed multiple people, where's there memorial?
@@footrot17 they’re shocked at the disrespect given to the victims of the Bali Bombing by tearing up the park
@@footrot17 no of course not. Memorials are there to remind us reflect, occasionally I used sit there during my lunch hour, having people around make the environment alive. I enjoyed seeing children play
Those five squares in Adelaide are EXTREMELY isolated from their surroundings, and almost always being utilised as venues for outdoor events. I have never once been to any of them for anything besides crossing through them, as there is nothing there really.
Yeah, I only really go there to get on the tram...
This is what really through me when I came to Australia. I was always looking for a “centre” of a town or high street. I came to realise that the malls are like their centre or equivalent to a high street. It still throws me even now. For me the layout in suburbs can be very empty and quiet with nothing going on.
Can’t force people to spend money they don’t have by providing them with places to relax.
So many suburbs in Brisbane are just mazes of streets of houses. It can be interesting looking at the houses, but by God sometimes it takes forever to walk anywhere useful.
Yeah years ago my dad and myself got seriously lost in LA, driving around in giant circles trying to locate a centre
“The problem with Australians is not that so many of them are descended from convicts, but that so many of them are descended from prison officers.” Clive James
When you quote Clive then you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.
@@interestedobserver587 Well ... it's Australia
@@KarlDMarx And Clive James was an insufferable bore.
@@interestedobserver587 Well ... fits the society ... In general Australians are not the most riveting interlocutors.
@@KarlDMarx James was more pom than Australian. He was in the UK from 1962 until his death in 2019.
I love Melbourne and I would argue that the abundance of parks (especially riverside) and beaches around Port Phillip really make a concrete town square less of a need or want. Besides there's always footy at the Marvel Stadium :)
Melbourne: NO TOWN SQUARES!
Other parts of the world: a town square is good.
Adelaide:........FIVE town squares we shall have FIVE.
Actually there's six : Victoria, Light, Hindmarsh, Whitmore, Hurtle & Wellington.
What about Forrest Place. I was suprised that wasn't mentioned. There used to be a small road that was closed and then there became a large square in front of GPO, Central rail station and Forrest Chase. Used for special events, example sporting teams winning premierships... Despite it being an area that works as a square and thoroughfare, the govt wants to change the appearance. Largely due to hot weather they will removing a lot of paving and use far more trees and seating. Thereby, restricting the area as a large square for functions etc... It seems that in Australia hot weather is a major reason why squares don't work so well. In Summer its an empty space.
I would love it if Melbourne had a formal City square tho, when I meet up with friends i usually was at the federation square, but it gets claustrophobic sometimes and feels like it could be more open, these decisions of city squares originally were knee jerk reactions with long term repercussions
Before Fed Square was built and before The Pullman was built on Swanston St, both of these areas were Melbourne City Squares. This would have been in the 90’s when I used to hang out with the skateboarders who would skate the squares. Both squares were very basic but lovely calming places to meet your friends.
Yeh Melbourne used to have the city square between Collins, Swanston and Flinders lane in the early 80s. It had huge water features and it even had an indoor seating area with beautiful fountains
You read my mind. In the past three days I have stood in three town squares in three different cities outside of Australia and wondered the same thing!
The algorithm knows all…
“Melbourne lacks a civic centrepoint” never a truer word, and nothings changed.
It did have one called "City Square" on Swanston Street. I used to go there in the 70s and early 80s. It was a beautiful location where many people met.
Dictator Dan wouldn't have it any other way
Still THE finest city south of the equator whether civic centrepoint or not.
@@Lupi33z This is an issue that's lasted since Melbourne's outset, so unless Dan can time travel or is some sort of an immortal then he's cleared of this.
@@Lupi33z I can't believe we allowed Daniel Andrews to design Melbourne in the 1800s
I'm surprised you didn't mention that City Square was halved in size when they sold it off to hotel developers. That was the nail in the coffin for it.
Oh City Square along Swanston Street, yes I used to go into the city with my Mum in the 70s & early 80s and we'd stop there.
It was beautiful.
We HAD "City Square" in Melbourne and it was used for very many events and gatherings, even protests.
It is truly terrible they made such a decision long ago and we are still paying the price for it. Nice video. Keep up the good work.
Even small places in Norway with only 30.000 +/- people, it's common with Town Squares that is open for everyone with no restrictions.
I guess it's in the culture that a open space for events etc. is needed.
The state library may have lost the fence barriers, but it looks as though public control measures are still present In the form of anti-skate bars set into the bluestone. (Visible at around 2:55)
Good point indeed. Let them skate.
Yes let them skate and ruin the bluestones.
as they should
So you're saying let them skate indeed, ruining property,really? Causing a nuisance to people around, and as you know young people live in a world of their own oblivious to their surroundings, to people around them.
@@bonesreturns1 don't ruin the Bluestone, it is expensive and a pain to repair/replace. Go to a skate park instead and have fun in an area engineered for skating.
Adelaide- city of churches and squares. The squares come in really handy doing a blockie route or just navigating the city. The traffic flows and it allows for more opportunity to have right hand turns ( although they put the tram up King William st so now no right turns along there) and I used to meet friends at Victoria Square so that we could catch the tram down to Glenelg.
probably the only place in Australia where cruising took off...ie American Graffiti style not the floating nursing homes
@@Lupi33z too true! 👍
As an Aussie it's not too tricky to figure out, here's why i think we don't before watching the video:
- Pretty much no city planning except for Canberra.
- Sydney and Melbourne were Englands prison camps they weren't getting cute little town squares.
Prison camps need a place to rally prisoners and execute people thees need for square even bigger
This guy forgot about how Australia was invaded
melbourne is literally a grid because of the extensive hoddle planning lmfao
@@jamieosnescobar5989 I'm a girl and mate "Sydney and Melbourne were Englands prison camps" this is literally a reference to colonisation and Australia being a penal colony.
Treasury Gardens seems to be a good place to 'gather for civic occasions' (Tongue in cheek there, sort-of.) Adelaide is enjoyable in that driving INTO a city, there is green space.
In Sydney I always thought the block in front of the town hall bounded by George, Park, Pitt and Bathurst would be a good square. It has Town Hall station, the light rail and a Metro station is being built nearby.
Agreed. I think they’re developing that area.
For many kids growing up in Sydney at the same time as I, "meet at Town Hall" was standard procedure as it was also convenient to the George St cinemas, food outlets, amusement arcades etc. Would have been nice if SCC decided to dedicate that major intersection as a pedestrian precinct well before the light rail project got off the ground. Better late than never I guess!
Now that they've got the light rail it's a lot more pedestrian-friendly, but even before that, it was the usual meeting point in the city for most people I knew back when I lived in Sydney
@@sixstringedthing I don't know how old you are, obviously, but even as a teen in the 80s and early 90s, and into my 20s (also 90s) it was the place to meet up in the 'city'. I haven't been there in years, but I recall it was where the 3 cinema chains were, you had KFC on the corner, the underground Maccas, and Timezone.
To the East of that block around 150 metres distant we have Hyde Park and in the opposite direction there's connectivity by foot tunnel has been opened up for access through to the multi bilion dollars expenditure on the Barrangaroo harbourside project. The QVB nearby is Heritage protected.
As a Melburnian who has grown up without a real city square (I only vaguely remember the City Square) it has never bothered me that we don’t have one. As you mentioned, we meet in cafes and bars or ‘under the clocks’ before going somewhere else.
This. Why do we need a city square? Who cares?
I actually like Federation Square. It's not perfect, could be better but it's a good place to stay, near the tram and Flinders stations, the Yarra River, the museums and a good view of the City.
The stage area also uses to have some cultural or sport events, and I always see a lot of families with kids enjoying the place
Great video, I love hearing about the history of Melbourne 😄
Happy to help!
Really love your channel, Julian. It's really great to see such in-depth content on our beautiful city.
Thanks, Denis!
This is awesome, love your work Julian. I get a kick out of telling my friends who come to visit all about Melbourne in greater detail from you. ( Yes, we nerd right out LOL)
Another great, educational video of the city I love and grew up in. Thanks for your work, Julian
Glad you enjoyed it
I'm pleased to see you getting sponsors! It's been so lovely to watch this channel grow. :) It would be lovely if we could get (non-automatic) subtitles added to your videos; is that something we could help with?
Glad you’re enjoying them! Yep - all my videos have real subs on them. This one will be up soon.
I love watching your vids, I always learn something new and interesting about the city I call home! Keep up the excellent work!
I'll always associate Fed Square with Kevin Rudd's Stolen Generations apology. The square was packed with people watching it on the big screen. It was the natural place to go for such a civic event. Also, viewing a busy Melbourne day from one of the raised sections looking down towards Flinders Street Station is a treat. The masses of people flow like rivulets.
I was there that day. It felt important to be together as a community for that moment, rather than just watch on Tv.
Parisier Platz isn't a town square: it was the gate on the city wall historically, the most town square place in Berlin would be Alexanderplatz in the center of Berlin.
Isn't that where Jason Bourne took a tram once??
Omg, thank you for commenting this! I was just about to write sth about this myself. Of all the town squares in Germany (or even Berlin) to choose from... 🥲
@arunashamal most likely, Alexanderplatz is one of the larger stations in Berlin, where at least 6 different lines meet (s-bahn, 3 u-bahn, at least 2 tram lines)
It's the part of Berlin where the tv tower is, and a huge shopping district
It's curious that this disfavour for public squares as a means of quelling democratic uprising cropped up in considerably 'later' colonial cities like Brisbane, let alone a latecomer like Melbourne that barely makes the top 10 list of oldest cities in Australia. While this is just conjecture, I recon that this might tie to the ideas developing at the time that Australia might actually become the 'America 2.0' for the UK, rather than just a prisoner dump at the end of the world, and as such, with 'normal people' starting to fill out its population, it might have been worth putting some actual thought into shaping cities to reflect visions for the future colony and how to keep them loyal to the UK.
The first three colonial cities founded in Australia to have rough street plans (Sydney, Hobart and Launceston, the latter being the founder of Melbourne 30 years later) seemed to have put little to no thought whatsoever into their town plans and shaping the society that might grow within them. These 3 founding cities are all unique in having characteristically wonky grids. Like the story of Launceston's first street, George Street, they started out as crude bush tracks hacked into the wilderness from a maritime landing point and later formalised by surveyors. But as these service settlements built around dumping and containing convicts started to become towns in their own right with ordinary people living lives outside of this prison-based economy, it wasn't long before they included town squares into these plans. Both Hobart and Launceston for example included a main square and a market square each. In the case of Launceston, by the time Falkner and Batman left to found Melbourne, 30 years after Launceston's own founding, Launceston had "Cornwall Square" (the market square), and "St John's Square" (the civic square, now renamed "Prince's Square") as well as a usual provision of parks around the periphery of the town.
While Cornwall Square hosted the markets and occasional military events, St John's Square had a muddier past and might even have caused the line of thought that would see Launceston's child city be deprived of squares. Almost all the protests and public speaking around the convict system were held in St John's Square, both the gathering that lead to the first church being erected in settlement (which overlooked the square and saw the square used as a clay pit for the bricks it needed, and came about due to the folks of the town growing impatient with the 'lack of morality' that was growing in the convict-filled outpost) and for the series of protests that ultimately lead to the end of convict deportation to Launceston and Tasmania. The government at the time also tended to be in the habit of using this public square as an execution ground for public hangings (which has me wondering if this was in response to the square's association with disgruntled public gatherings being combatted with intimidation). Either way, by the time Melbourne was being formalised into a proper town, the +30 year history of St John's Square could have been part of what ultimately lead to the decision to not repeat another little 'protest field', especially given that a lot of Launceston's disgruntled free settlers migrated to start new lives in this new settlement.
Also, I do like that you included a comparison to Adelaide, which was planned out in the same year as Melbourne's 'formalisation', yet the wildly different origin's and intents behind these colonies saw their new capital settlements designed to very different ideals. Where the 'founding 3' cities (Sydney-Hobart-Launny) were ad-hoc "it's just a prison dump at the end of the world, who cares" plans, Melbourne seems to have been built around functionality for the empire and quite bluntly, authority/control in mind, and Adelaide was planned around freedom and utopian ideals (but still with a heavy dose of keeping wealthy and poor separated). I do wonder as well if the distinctly 30m wide streets of Melbourne was also tied to the thinking behind the 'boulevards' in Paris which were planned out with the intent of being able to move troops quickly and combat the civil unrest/rebellion that thrived in the small back alleys and rat-runs. This has me thinking as well that this was part of the plan because, in 1851, Launceston expanded over the North Esk River and set out a suburb on the swampy floodplains that became known as "Inveresk". Being routinely flooded, nobody but the poorest working class would ever populate it, and curiously, it was planned using a direct copy of the Hoddle Grid, just cut and pruned to fit the site. While it could be mere chance, if the wide streets and orderly blocks of the Hoddle Grid actually shared ideals with the Parisian boulevards as a means to crush uprisings, this would be a fascinating and dark piece of history between both cities. Its also worth noting that Invermay never included any public squares in the initial plans, just land reserved for industry.
Robin, my friend, what are you doing sharing such insightful, knowledgeable, interesting and extensive thoughts here in the YT comments section? It's unheard of.
Very interesting! So glad I could read this
Agreed although I didn't read All of that.
I have read and studied Australian Social History though and found that for the period 1853 till present day Melbourne has been ranked No 1 for the highest living standards with Perth No 2 for most of that period. Ballarat occupying No 2 at other times.
Melbourne, Perth and Ballarat are all very well planned cities with excellent infrastructure.
It's these fundamentals which seem to determine the world's most liveable cities.
@@enc3342 He's correct though.
I've studied Australian Social.History and learned that for the period 1853 till present Melbourne has been ranked No 1 as the most liveable with the highest living standards, Perth has occupied the No 2 slot for most of that period. Ballarat was at times ranked No 2 or No 3.
Good planning and infrastructure stands the test of time.
Great post mate
I like learning about our history in this format. Thanks for the video.
Interesting. American cities don’t seem to have them either. Even Times Square in NYC is more of a traffic junction than a piazza.
america :face_vomiting:
@@sebiboy3069 ur joking
Central Park.
Then there are cities such as San Francisco which has a very famous Union Square.
@@TerkanTyr it’s impressive but it’s not a Town Square.
I would have thought King George Square in front of Brisbane City Hall would have been considered our Town Square/piazza. Considering it's in front of the iconic heritage listed City Hall, and it serves as a place for celebrations, events and protests. And, well, is a square in front of the city/town hall.
Yeah, I think it's a bit misleading - because you're absolutely spot on. The square was opened up in 1975 specifically to be the public square for Brisbane, but I think the point remains that Brisbane was designed without this feature for the reasons laid out in this video.
Never noticed (except Adelaide) that there are no plazas or City Square in Australia
What about Federation Square?
@@boglenight1551 I stand corrected
Yeah we're the cool kids on the block that have 5 (technically) but the true central square is Victoria Square.
But we have one square in each of the corners of town which are Hindmarsh, Light, Whitmore and Hurtle square. Each is a tad different. Hindmarsh is near Rundle Mall, Light is near the TAFE and UniSA campuses, Whitmore is kinda more housing and a few restaurants and Hurtle is mainly businesses.
Team Adelaide represent
It is surprising how many people don't realize there are all sorts of interesting things west of the Great Dividing Range.
Thanks Julian! Truly fascinated by your videos and their ability to help expand my knowledge and understanding of my own country! Excited for the next video :D
Another banger of a video Julian. I've lived here all my life and had never really considered that we lacked proper squares. To be fair, I'm too young to really remember the era before Fed Sq, and the combo of Flinders st Station, Fed Sq, and the easily blockaded intersection has always felt like a defacto version to me.
But watching this made me once again aware of the kinda oppressive feel of the Hoddle Grid, and makes me wonder about the philosophical connections between the colonial powers and the slightly later rationalisation of Paris' streets by Haussmann, focusing as he did on wide boulevards you could easily charge cavalry down whilst also hindering the building of barricades that had combined to make Paris, and other old-world cities, so easy to revolt in.
And considering how poor taste knocking down an Aboriginal cultural centre for a bloody Apple store would be, it can't be surprising they reconsidered.
After all, there's a 711 30 seconds away from the proposed site, and all that glass would make a real tempting target to chuck a slurpee at.
Would quickly turn in to a game.
There was an illustrated history/graphic novel with people debating the width of the roads in the city. "90 yards would take all day to cross! Make it 60" The laneways were originally built for service. The grid was only so they could sell off the land easier.
The width of the major roads in the CBD were set at one and a half chains, which is 99 feet or 33 yards.
Great video, as always. I liked the stinger at the end. It's always good to acknowledge your fans - as long as they're being respectful of you.
This brings back memories of the opening of the city square and meeting cousins and friends there and under the clocks at Flinders St station also specific people at cafes that had meaning for us
It's interesting that Adelaide, the capital of the only Australian state which wasn't a penal colony, has not one, but five town squares. Does this mean that all of the other states are still bearing the shackles as Prisoners Of Mother England?
were you paying attention last year?
@@Lupi33z What does last year have to do with the fact that South Australia was the only free state in Australia?
@@davidcraill9701 the shackles as Prisoners Of Mother England was in full effect last year
@@Lupi33z Not in South Australia. We were the least locked down main land state in the country. It is quite ironic that Melbourne, the city most featured in this video was ranked as the most locked down city in the World during the pandemic.
@@davidcraill9701 @Lupi33 yep…only lockdown we had was meant to be a 10 day one but they ended it early at 7 days because Adelaideans were so well behaved about sticking to it…we kept our freedom all pandemic until the state opened borders and let C-19 in.
Colonel Lights Adelaide is the most well planned city in the World . Parklands and Squares everywhere . With a residential sector separated by a River and parklands and the Adel Oval to the Business sector. It has housing but not the estate homes built on acre blocks
Fascinating, thanks for creating & sharing this!
Having lived in Melbourne all my life I'd never thought about this before 🏙
Hey mate your doing a fantastic job at explaining these important things keep it up!!
Adelaide is the best. I guess the reason was that it wasn't settled by convicts, so perhaps those in power weren't as affraid :) just free settlers! Can't believe I didn't notice that other cities didn't have them by design though, so weird. Great video!
Thanks mate!
Yeah, when I first saw the video title I immediately thought "But hang on, Adelaide does." But likewise, the squares are such an integral part of Adelaide's design, I'd never noticed other cities didn't have them. So +1 Adelaide I guess? The convict connection never occurred to me, but I do wonder if that's why they weren't afraid of democracy catching on in this city.
Of course Adelaidians don't meet in Victoria Square, we meet at "the malls balls".
Victoria wasn't founded by convicts. The first settlement was but it was shut down and the second attempt at a colony was settled by free people. Melbourne was also founded and settled by free people. Doesn't explain why Adelaide has town squares
@@willpeden6055
The second settlement was made up of convicts and exiled peoples from Tasmania...then convicts came after as servants and gang workers.
@@stevenbalekic5683 But it still wasn't a penal colony? And on top of that the overwhelming majority of settlers in Victoria after it was founded came from the Gold Rush, and they were free people no?
Really love your videos of Melbourne! I'm very proud of our city and having travelled the world, we are so blessed in Australia!
My favourite UA-cam channel. Amazing what information you come up with.
I have never enjoyed history, but I love your videos so much. Thank you for showing me how interesting and relevant history can be.
this is so sad, in Europe you see even villages with beautiful town squares and you can tell it is crucial in social development in communities
A video about town squares sponsored by Squarespace…. Well played, Julian! And a great video as usual.
Thanks, Scott!
Your videos are always interesting and informative. Thank you
Another informative video Julian, many thanks. Interesting your comment about the lack of city squares that probably lead to our café culture. Now that I'm an oldie, given the choice between a square and my double strength latte, I think I'd pick the coffee every time. 😁
Cheers, Paul. Minus one square. Plus one latte.
The moment I read your title my mind went around the Capitals and came to rest on Adelaide where William Light designed a square mile city around a Victoria square smack in the middle and the 4 others making a regular X pattern. The square mile was surrounded by parks. The guy was clearly squares and parks focused.
Unfortunately, the fact that they are ringed by roads makes them less inviting than they would otherwise be. And Victoria Square has had roads cut through it as well.
Doesn't change a thing, Adelaide is still a poorly planned city with deep infrastructure.
Very poor water pipes, barren dry parklands, terrible road surfaces.
You're amazing Julian.
I think you missed the Melbourne central clock space as a defacto town square as well.
The building in there and the Daimaru pyramid might be some good idea for content. Would love to learn more about it.
Cheers! That’s a good idea. There’s something in that for sure.
Do you mean Bourke Street Mall? There are also the parks - Carlton Gardens and Flagstaff.
I saw you at Melbourne uni while you were getting a coffee near the Bailleu library! So great seeing you around my university, I’m a huge fan ❤️
Excellent video once again! Great stuff!
Cheers Simon!
my dad still can’t believe we still meet up under the clocks!
These episodes are so interesting to me and I don’t even live in Melbourne. Any chance of an Unknown Sydney series in the future?
Sure is. Watch this space.
really good informative video Julian, didn't know that about Melbourne but interesting all the same!
I was actually thinking about this really recently. As a frequent visitor (who hasn't been able to go recently for obvious reasons) I thought about when I thought "Melbourne" there wasn't really one specific spot I thought of, which made me think about how I couldn't really pinpoint the "middle" of town like I can for other places. It must be fate this video comes out so recently. Really interesting and well made!
Yeah we just close off a main road and make it pedestrian only now haha. I'm all for that, just noting the change.
I knew before I watched the video, the answer would be protesting. The British knew and understood well how to stop people from gathering in the streets, to some degree they probably copy/pasted the French with their redesign of Paris, which had this exact intent in mind: how to channel the army/police into the streets.
In the best way possible- you’re the class video in school everyone actually enjoys watching. As someone with limited international travel, this is something I had never thought of. I’d love to see a town square in Melbourne designed around First Nations ceremonies- circle rather than square, a both watching a performance and being part of the performance/ceremony, a feeling of togetherness, kinship, no matter who you are- mateship and inclusion. A focus on natural elements and rock that help acoustics for a real focus on accessibility rather than relying on Hifi surround sound systems, and actual universal design accessibility so that everyone can join and be on the same level, rather than designated “wheelchair pram and elderly seating”. Can you do a video on the Melbourne war memorial? My parents visited, I haven’t had chance to go yet but it was incredible to hear how it was designed with the entire city, and the sun, in mind.
My city (and province... and country) gets kind of a lot wrong, but Churchill Square in Edmonton, AB, CA, is really nice. It features a skating rink in the winter (popular with families), and a shallow pool with water features over the summer (popular with older kids and teens, especially). There are a lot of events held in the area, and some good shopping, food, and essential services in the surrounding area. The oldest public library in the city is just across the street of one end (newly renovated, and there are often events happening here, too), and a museum is on the opposite end of it.
It's a really nice, open area, usually with a lot to do nearby. If you're too hot or cold, duck into the nearby mall or library. There are affordable meals at the many, multiple food courts within minutes of walking distance. 😅
As a sandgroper I enjoyed my trip to Melbourne.
You do raise a good point of preventing uprisings though.
So they went to the Shrine of Remembrance instead.
"Clean hands" is often joked about, but it was yet another way of preventing working class people utilizing the library resources.
That's why the library had wash basins and soap. The only problem was the working class kept pinching the soap. True story.
My hometown has the opposite problem; it has so many squares, plazas, and public parks that the city is struggling to find the funds to maintain them. 😊
I love this series of unknown Melbourne videos.
Thanks, Lawrence!
Living in Adelaide and knowing our parklands around the centre CBD and 5 Squares , I will rename your video " Why Melbourne is poorly planned"
Adelaide is an awful place
Thanks for another great video Julian, there have been few good events at Fed Square including Australia v Uruguay at the 2006 World Cup qualifier in November 2005 and all the matches shown on the big screen that Australia played in at the 2006 World Cup but i do feel is has a poor design and not enough green space.
The screen events are actually really cool. Particularly World Cup.
Throw in the occasional protest assembly and you're home and hosed (perhaps literallly)
This is really facisnating. Never knew, but extremely interesting. Thank you for sharing this story
Hi Julian,
An excellent video. However, please slow down a little. I had trouble keeping up with your fast-paced speed, and I am a local.
Federation Square is a tale of short-sightedness and lost opportunities. The "shard" at the north-west corner blocks views of St Paul's cathedral, while the building at the south-west corner blocks views down St Kilda Road. Building the Potter Gallery across the the eastern boundary destroyed any opportunity to continue the square to the east or connect with any further development over the railway yards.
Similary, the QV Building (at Swanston and Lonsdale) should have been set well back from Swanston Street to provide further open space and a better view of the State Library. BTW: I suspect the removal of the fence at the State Library had more to do with gathering scrap iron for war material than providing more public access.
Try watching the video at 0.75x speed.
I agree with the point you made about the cafe culture and not needing a square to meet up with someone. Even in regional Victoria where I live I’ll always meet someone at a cafe, pub, shop etc. even when visiting Melbourne it’s usually flinders or another train station, cafe etc.
'Cafe Culture' is the biggest crock of real estate marking shyt I've ever had the displeasure of seeing/ hearing in general usage. There... I said it.
I find their reasons for not including a town square sinister but you’re right, Melbs would not be what it is if we did have one. Could you imagine meeting your mates anywhere other than under the clocks? Blasphemy.
Meet you under the clock on the square?
@@JulianOShea just doesn’t have the same ring to it, unless you’re supplying bubble tea, I’ll have to pass
@@JulianOShea The phrase was originally "under the clock" because there was only one at Flinders - that clock is now at Southern Cross.
excellent parallel drawn between the lack of public square and cafe culture! loved this video
Thanks! 😃
Really interesting video, I never thought about this before!
Interesting vid, though title is a bit misleading, it applies more to Melbourne. Perth has Forrest Place, for instance, and you mentioned the ones in Adelaide. Also most American cities don't have those grand European style city squares/piazzas either.
Sydney has Hyde Park/The Domain and Circular Quay. Though most people just meet at Town Hall.
Great topic and video.. I’ve always thought it a shame Melbourne didn’t have public squares or small parks incorporated into the city centre like we see in Europe and North America or even Adelaide and Sydney.. I simply heard it was largely because it encouraged drinking and drunken behaviour which I’m sure is related to the reasons you gave. Personally I’ve never been overly happy about the design of federation Square and because of the impressive architecture near by I think the site of the Collins arch could of made a beautiful spot for a city square something similar to Union Sq in San Francisco.
Melbourne did have it, it was called 'City Square and it was on Swanston Street not far from the City Council Chambers.
It was nicer than anything in Adelaide or Sydney.
There is parks though!
@@johnpitsillides5707 I mean incorporated into the city / cbd grid.. There’s plenty of parkland and gardens just outside the grid.. flagstaff gardens is the closest to being inside the city centre.. otherwise you have some grass at the state library and smaller amounts at St. Paul’s
@@johnpitsillides5707 Parks? In adelaide?
Bone dry in summer.
Ugly, barren, no water for native wildlife or birds.
Terrible place!
Queen Vic Market is another place many Melburnians head to especially during weekends. Lot of culture, open space for celebrations, the seasonal night markets and the casual inclusive vibe make it feel public square-ish.
The front of the state library acts as a de facto town square as well. Lots of protests have taken place there. Speakers corner used to meet there. Outside of that it's a nice place to meet friends and chill out
A couple of days ago I was with my friends at a Roe V Wade Protest that started in front on the Melbourne Library. It was densely packed. One of my friends turns to me and said “They really need to start having these protests somewhere else”. I guess know why there’s not a huge list of places now 😅
Just out of curiousity, what did you actually want to achieve by protesting a decision that doesn't affect you, that happened in a country you have no voice of power in? If you don't like what they did, it seems like you'd have more power on twitter, but even then, I don't think it's an Australian's right to try and change the way another country works. We have our own problems, we really should be trying to fix them rather than worry about the yanks. It's the same with the George Floyd protests, and the Hong Kong protests. I can agree with all these sentiments, but it's really just barking up the wrong tree. And the idea that we get a say in how other countries run is absurd anyway. Low-grade totalitarianism.
@@stevedasbru I agree
@@stevedasbru Hey mate,
In all honesty I’m actually somewhat iffy on the effectiveness of a protest of an American decision. I think the idea that it sways any sort of decision making in the US is silly. The main idea I can personally get behind is one of morale. Showing support to US women and also to the women in my life who feel shocked by this decision. That’s at least my reasoning for attending.
I spend my money donating to Australian organisation such as unions and Australian Conservation Fund, because I do agree that we should focus our energy on solving our own problems. I just see no problem with a solidarity demonstration. So I do get your point and I mostly agree :)
@@stevedasbru American political and cultural trends trickle down to Australia, we have a stake in what goes on there and they have a stake in what goes on here.
This is both good and bad:
On one hand the George Floyd Riots/Protests were great in expanding the Overton window of possible solutions we can talk about in terms of the way society is set up to defunding and even abolishing the police.
On the other hand Q-anon started in America and the protest which took place in my city earlier this year is unlikely to be the last incident they cause.
It's naive to assume that personal abstention from thinking about and trying to affect politics in a more global sense means that it won't occur. It just cedes territory and power to others who will.
I guarantee you that Australian pro-lifers and christian nut jobs look at the overturning of roe v wade as an opportunity, as do their allies overseas and a big protest signalling to them that lots of people would oppose them is useful in smothering or delaying that spark of hope.
To your final point, of course we should try and have a say in what other countries do especially when their politics directly impacts how they interact and try to affect our politics.
For an example:
Nato's trying to bankrupt Russia at the moment so they'll stop/be weakened in their invasion of Ukraine. If Germany started to buy their oil again that undermines the mission and they need to be bullied to comply both by other governments and by people power. If a signal is sent that Europe can tolerate/support Russia invading countries then every little neighbouring country is at risk. The people in those countries would risk wanton slaughter, rape and economic devastation if they didn't try to affect Germany's politics so that they reverse that decision.
Australia's in a similar position, If The Solomon Islands take Chinese money and build military and naval bases there we lose military superiority of our backyard and can be blockaded and attacked by China either conventionally and unconventionally.
We have a stake in their politics and should attempt to either pay them off so they don't want to follow such a course of action or threaten them so they don't dare too out of fear.
@@rexappleby4731 no. Just no. Ruling over others is the reason we have all these messes in first place. The solution to tyranny is not more tyranny. But anyway, roe v wade is not american international policy, so it's not our place to speak about it. If American don't like it, they can sort it all out.
And mate, we don't need to shift the Overton window anymore than we already have. When "men" have periods and "women" are shaving their balls, we have gone too far left.
Adelaide is the most underrated city in Australia, it has by far the best city layout in Australia, feels welcoming with all the greenery that surrounds and runs through the city, easy to get to places within the city, etc. Adelaide has evolved more like a European city whereas other major cities in Australia have followed the North American route of big skyscrapers and concrete jungle feel.
Adelaide was once #3 city in Australia . It is now #5 and falling
There is no growth in SA
I do enjoy Adelaide as a proud Melburnian 💯
So glad your video popped up in my recommended! really interesting video about a concept I'd not given a lot of thought to about my own Aussie city but now can't stop thinking about! easy subscribe from me, have a great day!
Long time listener, first time caller
This is by far my favourite of your videos. Love the history
Glad to hear!
Federation "square" is almost uniquely ugly, hard to traverse, an awful shape, and uninviting.
That it gets used at all is a sign of desperation by Melbourne's citizens.
Great video! My favourite is the state library.
Nice video Julian. I've often wondered about this myself. It's not just Melbourne, but cities and towns all over Australia often have a "high street", but no actual central plaza or town square. I'm from Melbourne, but have been living in Chile for several years. While there are many things I miss about Australia, Chile has the town square thing down pat. Virtually every settlement of any size here, from tiny towns to major cities, has a large, square open plaza, usually in a very central location, often with grass, trees and places to sit down. Generally, they are the size of a full block, and typically are surrounded by government buildings, churches, banks and retail stores. All very useful. Australia could do worse than just copy the idea and put them in.
There was a Town Central In Ipswich, it was a massive redevelopment for the city. But it just caused little success, with the mall being abandoned/demolished for an entire decade and a bit. Hope that the renovations change things around.
G'day Julian, another interesting video. I would love to see some unknown facts on some of our outer mini cities and regional towns.