10mm Armor Plate vs 160mm Concrete ft. tungsten carbide penetrator | Armor Penetration Simulation
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- Опубліковано 23 бер 2024
- Simulation comparing the effectiveness of concrete armor and spaced armor vs sub-caliber shell with a tungsten carbide core.
8.8cm Pzgr 40 APCR (36mm, 1.9kg tungsten carbide core, steel body) at 840 m/s
VS
10mm 350BHN RHA + 150mm air + 162mm medium hardness cast armor at 25° (5° side angle, -0.5° fall angle)
Weight of armor covering the upper frontal plate:
160mm Concrete ~1000kg
10mm steel ~ 230kg - Наука та технологія
Concrete shell vs tungsten armor for April fool's?
Lol, maybe
183 mm Harden concreate at 1870 m/s ?
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 Try depleted uranium cannon balls at 2000/ms vs Leopard 2A5 turret face
It would definitely be interesting at 8km/sec.
@@pikaachoo3888isecond this majestic sugestion
Very interesting how the core broke apart by hitting 10mm plate alone
Sub calibre rounds travel very fast and have a tendency to crack or shatter on impact
Seems completely unrealistic tbh. A .50 cal AP round stays together through half inch IRL.
@@johnnycab8986 If you want to compare small calibers, I once posted an x-ray of a 14.5mm AP, tungsten carbide, in the community tab. I'm afraid it turned into a thousand pieces after passing through the thin (5mm?) plate.
It must also be said that hardened steel cores can also shatter. It's a matter of the shock the projectile experiences. If it lost most of its energy during penetration, it's no wonder it won't break. I won't guess without details.
tungtein carbide is very, very hard, which means it cannot compress or deform to absorb shock, like steel would
The harder a material is, the more likely it is to shatter when stressed. At least in most cases. Softer things will deform rather than break at their max stress levels.
Looking at the final shape of the shot inside the armour plate being described as a "small bulge" certainly got a giggle out of me
It's not that small, i'd say the bulge is average at worst
Bad news bud...
E X P L I C I T D Y N A M I C S
y'know what
bulge privileges removed.
0:51 that "penertrator" on the bottom right looking hella sus
What the fucking hell.
Yes, and the one on the left is described as producing a small bulge xD
That's hella long penetrator
@@joten70 [notices bulge] uwu
I'm ashamed of myself for even saying that as a joke.
@@Treblaineyou should be
0:50 You vs the guy she told you not to worry about.
Facts
for the weight of the concrete add on, you can use this 10mm spaced plate, and then add 3 more plate in the void beetween it and main body
Looking at the shot that was against concrete at 0:51 made me challenge my immaturity.
i failed.
"We didn't manage to penetrate their armor!"
This is how it feels to play the conqueror in war thunder. And have every second shot from your 120mm gun do this.
my gaijin moment: 270mm apds (centurion 1) failed to pen isu-122 90mm armor
the cancer of war thunder: gaijin, aphe, and stalinium
_lovingly strokes T-10M APHEBC_
I absolutely did not expect so much cracking and breakup of tungsten carbide, especially in contact with steel plate! It was rather supposed to change direction of further impact into the main cast armor plate.
German tungsten was of dubious quality late in the war.
Tungsten carbide is relatively brittle, most early APDS rounds suffered similar problems
@@puff7145 you think it's inertia effect then?
@@feedbackzaloop This is an obvious case, because the steel casing under the influence of the armor gains torque, uncomfortably bending the penetrator.
For less obvious situations:
In the case of sloped armor, the tip of the penetrator bends up and then down, which again favors breakage.
Apart from that.
The time until the rear of the penetrator notices resistance is finite. This creates a tensile stress between the front and back area.
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 funny how obvious and less obvious cases are swapped for us.
As per "time until the rear of the penetrator notices resistance", with speed of sound in WC of over 6 km/s it is indeed very finite, but nothing your model couldn't catch.
But from frame by frame replay it indeed looks rather that cracks appear due to penetrator bending.
Anyways, much appreciated for food for thought!
0:50 Missed clickbait thumbnail opportunity there.
christ it absolutely fractured that apcr
It's quite curious that nobody really used addon spaced armor in WWII outside of a.few outliers.
An angled wedge 10mm thick would increase the protection of vehicles far more than a thicker plate would, plus they would be very easy to mount and replace. Even a field workshop could weld together some plates to make a replacement.
Spaced armor obstructs viewports, hatches and maintenance, as well as increasing physical dimensions of the tank, making it harder to transport etc. I'm guessing most simply didn't think it was worth the effort
@@puff7145
It doesn't obstruct anything, you simply make a plate with an opening for those viewports.
The only negative would be an increase in size, but it wouldn't be as significant as the side skirts of German tanks.
Transportation wouldn't be an issue either, since they should be easily removable.
As far as I know no major nation even thought about addon replaceable armor. They were either making brand new vehicles with thicker plates or they simply accepted that the armor protection of their medium tanks would remain mediocre for the duration of the war.
It wasn't until the late cold war that we started seeing spaced armor made specifically to shatter and redirect enemy shells.
@@johnhighway7399 It complicates manufacturing, welding plates was one of the biggest bottlenecks in tank production. WW2 was a numbers game
They had considerably less effect on full-caliber rounds, which were overwhelmingly more common in use
@@kireta21 This. Spaced armor is useless against ap rounds, which is what you are going to see 90% of the time. Panzer IV G had spaced armor on the hull front, 30+50mm, and on the later H model it was made into a face hardened single 80mm plate because thats more effective against full calibre AP rounds.
I‘m still gonna go with the steel plate. I assume it’s lighter, even if it isn’t, it’s still additional storage space and if i was an infantryman nearby I‘d be more worried about concrete fragments coming my way as the plate may catch some of the ricocheting fragments.
I gave the weight of both armors in the video
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174I totally missed it. That’s a substantial difference in weight. Cool sim!
Can you simulate the effectiveness of metal foam compared to solid plate of the same mass?
Can you demonstrate some different types of rounds against this armour please? Like APHE and HEAT rounds?
I have to admit i did not expect a 10mm plate to be as effective as it was
With APCR it is to be expected. It already performs terribly against angles, add to that how spaced armor can shatter, damage the core, or deform it, and you get something like this. However this type of armor will be nigh useless against an actual full bore AP round.
And it would have been even more effective had it not been parallel to the armor. Had it been a little thinner but further inclined it would have twisted the projectile more.
What kind of simulation program is this?
Can you make a rotating cylinder/disk so it act as ERA feeding material to the rod?
If like to see overpressure and shockwaves vs rivetted plates to see if the rivets shoot out the back
That concrete tungsten penetrator Is really interesting after penetration 🤔
I would love you to test a space marine armor lol, i think it's more or less just as hard as steel
Did you make one with 2pdr APC against a spaced armor Pz III? 🤔
no?
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174Might be interesting :)
This would be a good modification to a Komatsu D355
Hey, which software do you use? LS-DYNA? great vid man!
Thx, Ansys
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 LS-DYNA module? I'm doing a mechanical engineering tesis about pistol calibres and it's kevlar penetration capabilities. So any information about the software you use would be greately appreciated!
@@LORDFERROK100 explicit dynamics
Now that is impressive disruption. How much could then 20mm plate do?
“Yes, a hit!”
„Shell Shattered“
Damn look at that 0:52 😂
The core 0:51 seems happy to see that armor.
very cool!
now i can see by general patton never approved concrete armor
Very interesting shape on that concrete penetrator
76mm shell, but the jacket is 8mm steel and the inside is filked with concrete. Just like practice bombs for planes!
I would love to see what this practice shell would do.
Yippee new video!
But overall this definitely seems like the best option, -it performed seemingly slightly worse than the concrete but the sheer amount of weight it saves far outweighs the benefits of the concrete.-
Edit: I take that back, it performed roughly equally to the concrete, so this is literally just a plain as day better option.
Coloca espaço maior... Tenho certeza que faz mais diferença
Гусары, молчать!
Concrete needs rebar or it seperates
What happens if it's explosive?
Now make one where you've got a 10mm steel plate and some concrete behind it (let's assume that the mass of the 10mm plate and concrete is the same as the full 160mm concrete experiment from a while ago with reasonable spacing and/or no spacing. Lets say the concrete layer weighed 500kgs for 160mm, while the 10mm plate weighed @150kgs, that leaves 350kgs of concrete, which would mean a 115mm concrete layer or whatever)
I still want to see Killdozer sims.
They switched from tungsten carbide to tungsten alloys to improve performance against spaced armor and to improve sectional density.
Edit: tungsten alloys didn't give improved sectional density.
Don't you mean "at the expense of sectional density"? Because WW2 era cores had density of around 15,6g/cm^3 while the later alloy cores around 14,7g/cm^3.
@@peasant8246 my bad
Spaced armor is so good it makes me wonder why it wasn't used more.
Mostly because it doesn't work well against full-caliber AP, and composite armor schemes work much better than merely spaced armor for a given weight and mass
@@williamnixon3994 would it even matter if it didn't give extra protection full-caliber AP if the base armor itself would stop full-caliber projectile?
APCR or APDS was so much more effective and so much more common in the Cold War.
@@Treblaine It's extra weight, and tanks already had a hell of a time not having trouble with their power trains, engines, and suspensions from excess weight, and it's extra bulk reducing how many tanks you could ship around
75mm APHE spalling vs 75mm AP?
Concrete armor vs HEAT shell
Since this is considered an early form of composite armor (by another commenter)
Could you do this one?
38mm Steel + 25mm Concrete + 50mm Rubber + 101mm Steel, sloped at 30°
vs
38mm Steel + 25mm Ceramic + 50mm Rubber + 101mm Steel, sloped at 30
I wonder how concrete would do as an insert of composite armor against ceramic ones.
this is an ultra poor arrangement, putting the concrete aside, the rubber provides no support, and without support the ceramic will shatter without providing any resistance.
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 I didn't really give it much thought. If you could, could you optimize the scenario but still involving using the main idea of having concrete as part of a composite array?
A better layout would be 55mm steel + 35mm ceramic + 35mm steel+ 5mm air (empty space) + 35mm ceramic + 50mm steel, sloped at 68°
This layout is from the T-80U obr.1989, used on the hull's upper front plate.
And lastly in my opinion, the concrete even in this configuration as a replacement for ceramic, would perform quite badly, probably worse than Textolite.
@@levilastun829 But what if you ADD concrete instead of remplacing something?
0:52 well Bemis...I guess tanks should have been using the Killdozer concrete formula all along!
"Its my first time"
i really wonder at what angel can a 10mm steel sheet stop an 88mm AP shell?
at any angle, I guess
How about a shell at 99% light speed?
do you have one without additional armor?
Two simulations earlier
What is the main plate like without the extra protection?
two simulations earlier, the plate is without additional protection
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 i shall watch it then
So it turns out after all these years especially on tanks that used steel boxes to hold the concrete, the steel boxes were more efficient armor than the tons of concrete they were holding. The T-55 Enigma is even sadder than I first thought.
Also depends on the boxes themselves. Not all steel is created equal. Though, from what I'm seeing, Enigmas actually were crude multi-layered steel composite with rubber backing on most of them. So, _only_ about as sad as you originally thought, I'd say.
There was no concrete or cement in the T-55 "Enigma". The addon armor modules held spaced steel plates with rubber inbetween them.
0:49 that reminds me to …..
Could you see what would happen if you used a 10mm Bullet flying at the speed of light against 150mm of plate?
the program won't be able to handle the speed of light
The program probably couldn't simulate that at all, and it definitely couldn't simulate it accurately. If something was going near the speed of light, it wouldn't really be a solid object like a bullet or tank projectile. Every atom in the bullet would have so much kinetic energy that the energy binding one atom to another would basically not exist, so it would just be a collection of particles all traveling in roughly the same direction. It also wouldn't "hit" the plate in the same way that one solid object hits another. The bullet particles would pass through, in between and into the particles of the plate, causing them both to self destruct. Not the objects mind you, the particles themselves would be destroyed, breaking down into exotic sub atomic particles and releasing all of the energy that the bullet particles had in a blast of X-rays and light that would rival a large nuclear bomb in destructiveness.
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 Didn't you already crash it with a relativistic projectile once?
Google "relativistic baseball"
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 How about the speed of a cannon shot like the Hellcat?
I think the plate did its job well for weighing 77% less than the concrete 😄
What material is it, sorry for my ignorance? How much is that material worth?
Test a 460mm shell at 50km/s speed
Kinda looks like an ultrasound
Yamato vs leopard2a4 maybe?
Where is the Arian Math Music?
0:38 involuntarily my brain yamate kudasai aehhhhhhhh
what's the simulation software name?
Ansys
That shell looking sus😂
0:51 is that normal?😳
0:49 Those are some suspicious animations.
ok 10mm armor plate+ concrete
Would reinforced concrete perform better?
a little, it certainly wouldn't fall apart like that
@@dejmianxyzsimulations4174 From what I've heard it helps prevent compression of the concrete. Even better if it hits the rebar itself. But I could be wrong though which is why I asked. Thanks for the answer! :)
@@freedomisntfreeffs Concrete copes well with compressive stresses, but practically does not bear tensile loads, reinforcement helps in this matter.
What’s an “mm” in Freedom units?
Millimeter, about 1/32 of an inch.
10mm is about 0.4 inches.
Hard to say, nobody uses inches
10 mm did a surprisingly good job
Thats what she said
What website do u use for such simulation?
I wanted to make a joke about "concrete bias", but someone already posted an unironic comment like that.
Concrete cracks and falls apart, especially if not reinforced. So, I doubt it would hold well against AP round. As April Fool's Day joke, it is fine, however
Spaced armor is way more effective against tungsten carbide penetrators than against HEAT rounds 😂
50mm of concrete would weigh about the same as 10mm of steel.
Put carbon fibers in the concrete.
Pause at 0:51 and tell me you don't see it...
This is pretty much how modern composite armor works
just that the composite has more plates of differend hardness and angle
,,Hit"
The fabled German KonKrete armor of late WW2.. what is left out is the composition of this mixture and perhaps how it could be made better.. River pebbles were the main component I do believe.
10 pieces of 1mm plate as spaced armor.
like duck
0:59 down right is too sus
Spaced armor is extremely effective against sabot to the point of making it useless.
Until Tungsten Alloys get added into the picture, whereupon they cut through spaced armor like a hot knife through butter
yo
Buthead laughter.
0:49 That picture reminds me... something.
sus!!
Impossible to not be biased in this channels simulations, eh? You should have at least compared steel armor equivalent if not to 1000 kg at least 500. But 250? If anything this simulation suggest that even that thin plate is much better than concrete.
Well, it's roughly equivalent in protection, isn't it!?
What bias are we even talking about here?
Is this the single most braindead comment in this channel's history?